1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: Hey, it's Gilbert King, host of Bone Valley, and today 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 1: we're bringing you something new, an introduction to Lava for 3 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:12,239 Speaker 1: Good's newest investigative series. It's called Graves County and it 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: will be released right here in the Bone Valley Feed. 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: You'll see it shown here as Bone Valley Season three. 6 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: And while there are many familiar themes, this is an 7 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: entirely new show told by a different host, Maggie Freeling, 8 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and one of the hosts of 9 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 1: Lava for Goods Wrongful Conviction. The story is about the 10 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: murder of a young mother, Jessica Curran, in the small 11 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: Kentucky town she lived in a place where it seems 12 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: like everyone has a connection to this case. After four 13 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: years of grossly mismanaged police investigation, a citizen sleuth named 14 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: Susan Goalbrath stepped in and took the case in a 15 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: new direction. She concocted a wildly complicated story, and the 16 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: police decided to go along with it. Susan's version of 17 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: events eventually led to at least eight different people being 18 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: charged with Jessica's murder. Most of them have maintained their 19 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: innocence from the beginning, and one of them, Quincy Cross, 20 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: is still fighting for his freedom from behind bars. Graves 21 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: County is a gripping, impeccably reported story of injustice that 22 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: must be heard to be believed. Maggie Freeling brings urgency, compassion, 23 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: and relentless journalism to a case that will stay with 24 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: you long after the final episode. The first two episodes 25 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 1: of Graves County will be out on July thirtieth, right 26 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 1: here in the Bone Valley Feed. Subscribers to Lava for 27 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: Good plus on Apple Podcasts will be able to listen 28 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: to the entire series the same day. As an introduction 29 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: to the new series, I sat down with Maggie for 30 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: a Q and A about her experience of reporting this 31 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: show for over two years and what she learned along 32 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: the way. Maggie, is so great to see you, so 33 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 1: great to speak with you again. I've been listening to 34 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: Graves County. I'm like four episodes in it. I am hooked, 35 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: and you've been working so hard on this. This is 36 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: a huge investigation for you. I just can't wait to 37 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: ask you a million questions about this. 38 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 2: Ask away. I love talking about it. 39 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: I can just walk us through the case, just to 40 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: give us a general sense of what this case is 41 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: really about. 42 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 3: Yes, So, in the summer two thousand, Jessica Kern is 43 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:30,800 Speaker 3: an eighteen year old mom. 44 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 2: She just had her baby, Zion, and she is found. 45 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 3: Brutally murdered and burned, half dressed outside the Mayfield Middle School. 46 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 3: And Susan Golbreath was just a woman in the town. 47 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 3: Her life was not going great at the time. She 48 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 3: needed purpose, and her purpose was I'm going to solve 49 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 3: this case. That was around two thousand and four. After 50 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 3: the police had initially bungled the case, they hired a 51 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 3: rookie detective. They made some initial arrests and it went 52 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 3: no So by two thousand and four, the citizen sluth 53 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 3: gets involved. She involves a BBC reporter and they go 54 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 3: on a hunt to solve the case. And what transpires 55 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:18,239 Speaker 3: is some of the craziest case solving techniques I've ever seen, 56 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 3: the craziest quote journalism I've ever seen, and just some 57 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 3: of the craziest investigating and policing I've ever seen. And 58 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 3: it's all on tape and documented in emails and so 59 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 3: it was it was pretty incredible to make this story 60 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 3: and like have everyone's follies just right there, just documented 61 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 3: so well. 62 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: So Maggie, I just was really curious about Susan Goalbreth 63 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 1: and she's, you know, the amateur sleuth who helped solve 64 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: the eight year old murder of a teenage mom. But 65 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: what drives an everyday citizen to get involved in a 66 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: murder case like this? And obviously I think she passed 67 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 1: away before you got to meet her, but you've obviously 68 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: been studying her. Can you just talk about Susan and 69 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: what motivated her to get involved in this case. 70 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, Susan is fascinating when people hear this. I mean, 71 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 3: she's a true character. She's you know, said that she 72 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 3: was compelled by God to solve this murder. She was 73 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 3: down the street eating lunch and she heard in this 74 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 3: small town that they found a body and she went 75 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 3: right to the scene and said God called her to 76 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 3: solve this. What I think happened is so often we 77 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 3: do see that when there is a void when police 78 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 3: in this case, they bungled it, or they bungle it, 79 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:40,039 Speaker 3: or if they can't solve it, there is a void 80 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 3: left and citizens, louths get involved. I mean we see 81 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 3: it now on Reddit and all these crime pages. It's 82 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 3: it's something that happens, and she was like a OG one. 83 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 3: It was it was back in four she's an OG sleuth. 84 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: How did like police law enforcement treat her like? What 85 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: was their relationship like with her? They? 86 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 3: I think they they found her annoying based on these 87 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 3: phone calls. I think they just wanted her to go away. However, 88 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 3: you'll see as a story goes on, they really legitimized her. 89 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 3: They took tips and leads, and ultimately her theory of 90 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 3: what happened is the theory that the prosecution went with. 91 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 1: And she did have some tangential connections to people involved. 92 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 1: Can you just talk about how she interacted with them 93 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: and maybe used them as sources. 94 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 3: So, Susan, she's a self described busybody, and she knew 95 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 3: a lot of people in town. 96 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 2: She had been there a while. 97 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 3: She's originally from Chicago, but she had been in Mayfield, 98 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 3: small small town for a long time. 99 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 2: So she knew a lot of. 100 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 3: The people involved in this case, these young folks, because 101 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 3: she was friends with one of their moms, and she 102 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 3: just she was friends with a few of these kids' 103 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 3: moms that were involved. She used her relationships with these 104 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 3: people to get information, and that came at a cost. 105 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 3: I think these people eventually realized that she was taking 106 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 3: advantage of them. 107 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 1: Well, you've spent years, you know, covering the criminal justice system, 108 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 1: and probably from all different parts of the country. I'm 109 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 1: just curious, what about this case that stands out to you? 110 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: What makes it different than a lot that you've seen. 111 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 3: So when this case came to me, it came from 112 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 3: Jason Flomm, and when it was presented to me, I 113 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 3: was basically told cop corruption. 114 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,600 Speaker 2: I hear that all the time. You know what stood 115 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:37,280 Speaker 2: out was. 116 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 3: The police legitimizing a citizen investigator, really using her, like 117 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 3: wiring her. 118 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,599 Speaker 2: You'll hear that in the podcast. So that was fascinating 119 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:50,839 Speaker 2: to me. 120 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 3: That was the first time I had really heard something 121 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 3: like that where a citizen, someone who has no background 122 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 3: in law enforcement, is wiring themselves up and giving police tape, 123 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 3: giving police leads, giving them full theories, and they're running 124 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 3: with it. And the other thing was how many people 125 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 3: were wrapped up in this story and how many people 126 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 3: were eventually convicted of this one murder. When you think 127 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 3: of Okham's razor, it was certainly not the story that 128 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 3: makes the most sense. It was just this wild story 129 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 3: that implicated eight or nine people, and I mean more 130 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 3: does it implicated countless people, but the amount of people 131 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 3: abound to being convicted. I had not seen before five 132 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 3: people we talk about in this story that were convicted 133 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 3: of it. 134 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: There's just like one mind blowing thing after another. I 135 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: just heard that. You know, you talk to the lead 136 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: investigator who basically says I didn't know what I was doing, 137 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: telling everybody that I don't know what I'm doing, my 138 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 1: tail in my head. I've never seen anything like that before. Like, 139 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: what does that tell you when you. 140 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, So that was one of the things that you 141 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 3: know when they mentioned like this cop corruption. Okay, I'm interested, 142 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 3: not unique, but that was unique about it was why 143 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 3: did the assistant chief of police assign this case to 144 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 3: a rookie? It seemed almost like you wanted this to 145 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 3: be investigated poorly from the beginning if you're going to 146 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 3: assign a rookie and not some of your best, which 147 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 3: in retrospect to looking back, I don't know if Mayfield 148 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 3: Police at some of their best. They were really embroiled 149 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 3: with scandals and corruption. And you know that assistant chief 150 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 3: of police. You'll hear in the podcast was pretty dirty. 151 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: I want to go back to journalists because you do 152 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: have this international presence, but you also have the local presence. 153 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: And I'm just wondering if you can just talk about 154 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:59,079 Speaker 1: like the role that journalism plays in a wrongful conviction 155 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: and what you know noticed in this part of Kentucky. 156 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, so it is so interesting getting to travel and 157 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 3: tell so many different stories. I know you really specialize 158 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 3: in Florida, which is so cool. I'm sure the amount 159 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 3: of connections in Florida are amazing. This was my first 160 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 3: time in Kentucky and I don't as a journalist, I 161 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:22,679 Speaker 3: don't like to just parachute in and then leave. So 162 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 3: I've really been working the story for two and a 163 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 3: half years, getting to know people, done multiple multiple trips there, 164 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:34,079 Speaker 3: and Kentucky is just a wild place. The lead prosecutor 165 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 3: that convicted Quincy Cross in this case and the five 166 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 3: other people she's been in office since the early eighties, 167 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 3: I mean that is crazy to me. And now we're 168 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:47,439 Speaker 3: talking about five wrongful convictions from just this one case 169 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 3: and you've been in office since the eighties. How many 170 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 3: other people have you railroaded? So to me, that's just like, what, 171 00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 3: how is that, Okay, how is that possible? 172 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:03,359 Speaker 2: That is the context of this story. 173 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 3: And that is so important to understand in order to 174 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 3: understand Quincy and what happened. 175 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,079 Speaker 1: I mean, did you ever feel any resentment about there? 176 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: Because you're down there? Obviously you don't have a deadline 177 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: of tomorrow and then maybe the case you don't write 178 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: it about it again, or maybe the cover of the 179 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: trial in another year or something like that. You're actually 180 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:26,239 Speaker 1: doing like long points of time studying this case, investigating 181 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 1: this case. One of the things I noticed is that 182 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: sometimes the local press they're friends with the prosecutors. Those 183 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 1: are the people that are given them the stories, given 184 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: them access, and the journalism has kind of tainted. Did 185 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:40,559 Speaker 1: you find the same thing in. 186 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 2: That part of Absolutely? 187 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 3: I find that it's all tainted because in these small 188 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 3: towns everyone knows each other. It is just like a 189 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 3: spider web of people who know each other, people protecting 190 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 3: each other. You know, all these shows about small, small 191 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,839 Speaker 3: southern town to talk about that, and it is so real. 192 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 3: It's very different from being in New York, where yes, 193 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 3: people they know each other. Of course there's quid quote pros, 194 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 3: but it's a different kind of thing. It's not my 195 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 3: family grew up with your family kind of situation, and 196 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:17,679 Speaker 3: I'm sure that exists, but the small town mentality, it 197 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 3: really fosters an environment of secrecy. 198 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. I was thinking about that a lot while I 199 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: was listening to this, and I was just curious, like, 200 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: when you look at this whole Graves County story, do 201 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: you see it as like a tragedy, a conspiracy, a 202 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 1: cautionary how do you look at Graves County? 203 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 2: I think it's I think it's all three. 204 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,679 Speaker 3: I think it's a tragedy, a conspiracy, and what was 205 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 3: the other one? 206 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: Cautionary tale? 207 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 2: Cautionary tale? 208 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: You know. 209 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 3: I think it's a tragedy because if you think of 210 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 3: these five people whose lives were ruined that were convicted 211 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 3: of this, each of those five people have family, Some 212 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 3: of these people had kids, some of these people were kids, 213 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:01,559 Speaker 3: So just alone there, it's it's devastating. 214 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 2: Definitely a conspiracy. 215 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 3: There's some wacky stuff going on that you'll hear about. 216 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 3: And I think it's a cautionary tale because it all 217 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 3: started with just believing what we're told, you know, this 218 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 3: like confirmation bias, and I think that is so much 219 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 3: what happened in this Quincy was arrested and said he 220 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 3: was an evil man, and from there on it was believed. 221 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 3: And I think one of the things is that we 222 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:36,559 Speaker 3: see is an eighteen year old mother was murdered and 223 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 3: people wanted justice, and it really was a cautionary tale 224 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 3: of how. 225 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 2: Far will we go to get that justice? 226 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 3: How many people can we throw under the bus and 227 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 3: railroad to close this one case? And we see that 228 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 3: all the time in wrongful convictions. 229 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: You know what I really love about it so far 230 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 1: is You've made Graves County a character in the story, 231 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: and I just love the way comes to life. You know, 232 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: there's definitely colorful people and accents, of course, but you 233 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: just you start to get a sense of the county. 234 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: And it made me think, I wonder, like, do you 235 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: think that this story would have looked the same if 236 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: it was somewhere in like New England. What is it 237 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: about Graves County that made this kind of story possible? 238 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 3: I mean, Graves County is if you google it, it is. 239 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 2: The heart. 240 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 3: It is the almost the dead center of this country. 241 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:29,559 Speaker 3: When I was like looking at a map, I was 242 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 3: trying to figure out, like where's the center of this country? 243 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 3: And Graves County is really right there. It's kind of 244 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 3: the middle of nowhere, and so secrets like that can 245 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 3: really be kept closed, they really stay there. It was 246 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 3: so surprising to know people in this state didn't even 247 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 3: know about this case. I mean it and the fact 248 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 3: that it wasn't as high profile as I thought it 249 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:59,079 Speaker 3: should be. There's maybe like two TV shows on it, 250 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 3: and both of them again and just repeat the Quincy's 251 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 3: a disgusting, horrible man, repeat the story that the police 252 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 3: and prosecutors have been telling for years, despite the fact 253 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 3: that he. 254 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 2: Has innocence claims in. 255 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 3: So no, I think it would have been different, but 256 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 3: who knows, for better or for worse. 257 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: One of the things that's happened when I'm listening to 258 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 1: this is like it seems like every episode my jaw dropped, 259 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: kind of drops, like I've never heard recordings of grand 260 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: jury testimony before like played out and then this Susan 261 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: Goberth's character, Like every every there's always some moment. I'm 262 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 1: just wondering, for you, having studied this case and investigated, 263 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: was there anything that made your jaw drop having seen 264 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: everything involved in this case? 265 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 2: Or you know, I think. 266 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 3: I think this case for me, it was like a 267 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 3: very clear how do you wrongful? Convictions happened? Because I 268 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 3: lived this case for so long and watched every piece 269 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 3: of tape, which was the most incredible thing to have 270 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 3: every police interview. Let me say not every because we've 271 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 3: discovered that some are quote missing can't be found, but 272 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 3: most of the tape, and watch the stories change, Watch 273 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 3: how they're doing the interrogations. 274 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 2: They are like the. 275 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 3: Ultimate super villains. My jaw dropped every time they spoke, 276 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 3: just every time they asked a question. 277 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 2: It wasn't a question. 278 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 3: It was just like threats and interrogations and just really 279 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 3: inappropriate things. 280 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: Is there anything that happened that sort of change your 281 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 1: outlook or your opinion of anything involved in the case 282 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: as you dug deeper into it. 283 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 3: Well, I think just exploring this idea of what is 284 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 3: our role as journals and how do we tell these stories? 285 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 2: It made me. 286 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 3: You know, in episode one, I mentioned the one time 287 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 3: when I very strongly believed in someone's innocence and got 288 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 3: it wrong and I had to grapple with that, And 289 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 3: I think as journalists we need to think about what 290 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 3: we do. Part of our job when we become journalists 291 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 3: is to do no harm. That's part of our rules 292 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 3: and ethics guidelines do no harm. So it really put 293 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 3: the light on myself and thinking about my reporting and 294 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 3: that time I did do harm, not necessarily to the 295 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 3: man that wound up being guilty, but to the victim 296 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 3: because I brought that story up again. So that is 297 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 3: something to think about when we do cover these cases 298 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 3: of wrongful convictions. There are victims and victims families, and 299 00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 3: so I think it really helped me process this role 300 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 3: of a journalist, especially when we do use emotion and 301 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 3: empathy as a tool, and how we present that and 302 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 3: use that in a way that is ethical. 303 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: You know, that's interesting. I was listening to some of 304 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 1: your you know, obviously there's people who didn't want to 305 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:20,679 Speaker 1: talk to you, and did you feel the presence of 306 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 1: like being an outsider and like you couldn't penetrate. 307 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 3: Because well, one of the things that we heard right 308 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:29,120 Speaker 3: away is, you know, this is a very rural southern town. 309 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 3: It not necessarily segregated, but people often whites stay with 310 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 3: the whites and they talk about it like that. And 311 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 3: when we came in, instantly it was you're a white person, 312 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 3: no one's going to talk to you. That is how 313 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 3: that town is. I mean, so I really had to 314 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 3: build relationships and make myself trustworthy. And these are people 315 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 3: who have had the worst of the worst happen to them, 316 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 3: be convicted of crimes, a horrible rape and murder and 317 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 3: burning of a teenage girl. 318 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 2: So yeah, I was. I was very much an outsider, 319 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 2: very much. 320 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:07,679 Speaker 1: Some people ask me about this, you know, when it 321 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: comes to like Florida, you know, do you think this 322 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: story will matter to people outside of Florida? And I 323 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:14,439 Speaker 1: have an answer for that, but I'm just curious what 324 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: your answer. People who don't know Mayfield, Kentucky, why would 325 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: they be interested in this? And can you explain? 326 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:22,920 Speaker 3: I think the thing that we loved the most when 327 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 3: we first when Rebecca and I my producer Rebecca, were 328 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 3: first talking about this. To us, it reminded us of 329 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 3: like I never watched gossip Girl, but just the title 330 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 3: gossip Girl. It was like all these teenage girls gossiping 331 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 3: about what happened to their friend, and those rumors turned 332 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:47,439 Speaker 3: into this conviction. And that can happen anywhere when people 333 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 3: start telling stories and spinning tales and gossiping. That can 334 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 3: happen anywhere, not just small town Mayfield Kentucky, So I think, yes, 335 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 3: it happened in a real small town, but it's emblematic 336 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 3: of wrongful convictions everywhere. 337 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 2: Really, people making up. 338 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 3: Lies and blaming people, pointing the finger because we need answers. 339 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 3: It's just like a human we need to blame someone, 340 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:20,159 Speaker 3: and the blame here everyone was just pointing fingers at 341 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 3: each other. And that is why Susan came in, because 342 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 3: there was a void. 343 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 2: It was. 344 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 3: It was a prime situation to go wrong because the 345 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 3: police got it wrong from the beginning. They bungled it, 346 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 3: they messed it up from the beginning, so from there 347 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 3: it was. 348 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:39,120 Speaker 2: Just a free for all. 349 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: One of the other things I felt really moving was 350 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: I'm just hearing from Jessica's father, and I'm just curious, 351 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 1: like what your take on him was, because it just 352 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,959 Speaker 1: seemed like I could really relate to him as you know, 353 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: a father and just what that would do to you. 354 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,439 Speaker 1: And I just found him very moving in the story. 355 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 2: Current is a moving character. 356 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 3: I mean, he grew up in the Jim Crow South. 357 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,120 Speaker 2: From a lot of his life, the only black guy. 358 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 3: He grew up in this world of white people, and 359 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 3: he did well in that world. In the Jim Crow 360 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,159 Speaker 3: South and then in segregation and Reese. He did well. 361 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 3: He was a pillar in this town. And when his 362 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,439 Speaker 3: daughter was murdered, he thought all these people that he 363 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 3: did good for and helped and was around and would 364 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 3: do right by him. 365 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 2: And they didn't. They absolutely didn't. They failed. 366 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 3: Joe Kerran in every way possible. And I think that's 367 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 3: what was so sad about it. It was a guy 368 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 3: who did everything right and persevered through everything and then 369 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 3: was just let down so badly. And I think you know, 370 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 3: he knows he might never get those because with a 371 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 3: story like this, where there is just so much bullshit, 372 00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 3: it might be lost. 373 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 2: It might very well be lost. 374 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:03,160 Speaker 1: I'm just curious. Is he like one of the people 375 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: that you think about when you're trying to dig into 376 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,680 Speaker 1: this story, Like I just want to make him have answers, 377 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,159 Speaker 1: Like I would feel so motivated by the way he spoke. 378 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 3: It's him and David, and I got closer with David 379 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 3: because Joe dealt with another tragedy. One of his sons 380 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 3: died while we were reporting this. I mean, the currents 381 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,360 Speaker 3: have just had loss after a lot, like we couldn't 382 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 3: believe another son died, or son died, two kids so 383 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 3: you know, I didn't get to build as close of 384 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 3: a relationship with Joe that I did with David. But 385 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 3: what it was so beautiful to me about Joe is 386 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 3: that he was willing to listen to David and sit 387 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 3: down with him, the man whose son is convicted of 388 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 3: murdering your daughter. It's very like Jeremy Leo. He was like, 389 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 3: I'll sit down and listen to your information. That brings 390 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 3: up stuff for him, like looking at your daughter case file, 391 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 3: looking at what was done to her. 392 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 2: He suffered through all of that just to get answers 393 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 2: he is. He's an incredible person. 394 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, it really comes across and I just the empathy 395 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: and just I remember there's one like very casual comment, 396 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: like a waitress says to him, like you look like 397 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 1: you just lost your best friend something like that, and 398 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: realizes what it's about. And I just found that so 399 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 1: profound in the story. 400 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 3: And he still he really does. Joe feels like he 401 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 3: is carrying the weight of the world. You know what, 402 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 3: We've met with a lot of victims families, and he 403 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:41,199 Speaker 3: is not someone that I that I can say, you know, 404 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 3: is just moving on, like he really this destroyed him. 405 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 3: You know, his wife wasn't there. She can't even talk 406 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 3: about it, so I never met her, talked to her. 407 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 3: She doesn't want anything to do with this kind of stuff, and. 408 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 2: It's just too hard. 409 00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,719 Speaker 3: It's too hard, and so for Joe to be out 410 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 3: there been doing this, We've been wondering like, is Joe 411 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 3: going to listen to this? Because the whole time, it's like, 412 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 3: we want to make sure, you know, the father of 413 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 3: Jessica is able to listen to this. We thought about 414 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 3: him and we kind of were like, me, he might 415 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 3: not really listen to this. 416 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:24,120 Speaker 2: That is just how could you? It's so hard. 417 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 1: Sometimes people ask me like has this case changed you? 418 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 1: And I'm just curious, like, going through this process, it's 419 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: obviously very labor intensive, investigatively intensive. Did it affect you differently? 420 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 1: Did you come away from this differently? Yeah? 421 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,640 Speaker 3: I mean as a journalist, it really made me look 422 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 3: inwards because when we wanted to be reporting on all 423 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 3: of these allegations against the police, we set out to 424 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 3: do that, right, we were making an episode all about 425 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 3: these allegations about the police, and then we thought, wait 426 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 3: a second, but that's what Susan did, what the police did, 427 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 3: and we looked at ourselves as journalists and storytellers and reporters, 428 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 3: and said, what good would that do to report these 429 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 3: allegations and potentially ruin people's names, drag their names for 430 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 3: the mud if this isn't true, if we can't fundamentally 431 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 3: confirm this, And so. 432 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 2: That's what it did. It really just made me look again. 433 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 3: At my role as a storyteller and a journalist and 434 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 3: what we choose to present Again, do no harm. And 435 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 3: even though I think a lot of these officers are 436 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:41,919 Speaker 3: the worst of the worst people things that we have 437 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 3: found out about them, it's still my job to do 438 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:46,919 Speaker 3: no harm to everyone I report on. 439 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: And just I'm curious what you like about this format 440 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,360 Speaker 1: telling stories through audio. I'm just curious. You know, you've 441 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 1: come in from a print background, like just about everybody. 442 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: What do you like and what do you see some 443 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: of the limitations of it your storytelling? 444 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I've been into audio since two thousand and nine. 445 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 3: I took a podcasting class on garage band in undergrad. 446 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,439 Speaker 3: So I've always loved it because I just find it 447 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 3: so intimate. And for example, with season two when your 448 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 3: season Bone Valley, when Gosh, who was reading the letter 449 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 3: Jeremy was reading one of Justin's letters or vice versa, 450 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 3: but it was very beautifully layered on top Justin playing 451 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 3: with his kid in the background as the letters being read. 452 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 2: And at first I was like, is that in my 453 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:37,640 Speaker 2: hotel room? Like where do I hear kids playing? 454 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 3: Because it was so subtle, But then it was just 455 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:44,160 Speaker 3: this beautiful moment of like one of them talking about 456 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 3: how well he's doing with his son, and then you can. 457 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 2: Hear it at the same time. 458 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 3: And that would have been visual in a TV show, 459 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 3: but I like that I could imagine it myself because 460 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:54,640 Speaker 3: what I was imagining was the playing with the letter 461 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 3: being and it was just so intimate and beautiful, and 462 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:00,679 Speaker 3: I think a visual would have taken away from that intimacy. 463 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: That's a really great point. Yeah, there is something about 464 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: just listening to a voice in your ear with headphones 465 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:10,719 Speaker 1: when you know that microphone's. 466 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 2: Really close, because you know what it is. 467 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 3: I find visuals very distracting in a way. I'm a 468 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 3: visual learner, so I do like visuals, But in terms 469 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,119 Speaker 3: of storytelling, I find it works when you have, you know, 470 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,959 Speaker 3: visually wild characters, but I like to imagine what they 471 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,160 Speaker 3: look like. I you know, some people fixate on things 472 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 3: about someone and instantly go, I can't look at that person, 473 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 3: or I can't look what they're doing, or like Susan 474 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 3: Gallbroth on the stand, I mean, if she was a 475 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 3: character in a TV show, I would probably be fixated 476 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 3: on her just gum chewing and maybe not even hearing 477 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 3: what she's saying. So I just find that listening to 478 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 3: it too, it's without the distractions. It takes away one 479 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 3: level of distraction. Right then you're just thinking about what 480 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 3: audio is distracting. 481 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: Right. That's a really a good point because I noticed that, like, 482 00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,640 Speaker 1: you know, when they did the twenty twenty piece on Leo, 483 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: like the host has to ask the question did you 484 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 1: kill your wife? And you know he says no, obviously, 485 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 1: uh huh. But like I've had people concerns saying, you know, 486 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: he kind of looked to the left and that's kind 487 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:11,919 Speaker 1: of something that guilty people do. And like it's just 488 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:13,400 Speaker 1: the visual part, like. 489 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 2: It's all the context anything, I believe. 490 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: So, and so I just think there's something about audio 491 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: that's just almost more truthful in a way. 492 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 3: I know, I think that visuals can be an you know, 493 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,919 Speaker 3: when we talk about this in you know, when I 494 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 3: do stories as a journalist. 495 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:32,640 Speaker 2: Music can manipulate people's feelings too. 496 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 3: We discuss what kind of music like, and there's just 497 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 3: another layer to that with visuals. So I just it's 498 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 3: like even more to get wrong, and it's I liked 499 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 3: the simplicity of audio, yeah, yeah, and like conveying points 500 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 3: that I want to in a very simple, easy, packaged, 501 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 3: intimate way. 502 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 1: I agree. I was just curious what you're thought. And 503 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:56,679 Speaker 1: really you started in two thousand and nine, though, that's amazing. 504 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 3: Well, I was an undergrad and I took a podcasting 505 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 3: class and garage band, which I I don't even know 506 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 3: if garage band exists anymore, Like I don't think people 507 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 3: will even use that. But yeah, it was a podcasting 508 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 3: class and garage band, and then yeah, I started audio 509 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 3: right in grad school. 510 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,360 Speaker 2: I've been doing it for a very long time. 511 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: Do you remember a lot of the mistakes you made, 512 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 1: like doing audio trying to figure out how do we 513 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 1: do this? 514 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think some of a lot of the 515 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,400 Speaker 3: mistakes are just like to like overdoing the sound and 516 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 3: like music. Like again, it was really learning like how 517 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 3: music can manipulate someone's emotions, so like just being really 518 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 3: careful with that, because if you're trying to tell a 519 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 3: truthful story and you put in some music to make 520 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 3: someone feel something, you are manipulat. 521 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 2: You're telling them what to feel. 522 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, my big was mistake was I just 523 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: couldn't shut up when people were talking to I just 524 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 1: keep going yeah huh. 525 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I still didn't know. Yeah, I still do that. 526 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 1: That's a nightmare for the editors. Can you just give 527 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:54,719 Speaker 1: us an update on Quincy Cross? 528 00:28:55,240 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, so his case is moving. Quincy's just really hopeful. 529 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 3: He's glad his story's out there. I mean, it's when 530 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 3: you're put away in prison, you're meant to be forgotten about. 531 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 3: They want you to be forgotten about. They don't want 532 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 3: these stories coming out there, so they have to acknowledge 533 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 3: what has happened, what they did wrong. 534 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 2: So he's just really happy. 535 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 3: That people got to hear his truth of the matter, 536 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 3: that he's not a disgusting, savage, rapist, burner man, He's 537 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 3: just he's a nice guy. 538 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 2: You know. I hope that Quincy gets out. 539 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: Does he have hope? Do you feel like you can 540 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 1: feel it? Yeah? 541 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 3: I cried so much during this, but especially when David 542 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 3: looked at us in the eyes and said, I'm. 543 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 2: Afraid I'll die before he gets out of prison. They're 544 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 2: both old. David's old, Joe is old. 545 00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 3: They're old men, and they both the same thing, and 546 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 3: it's really sad that the law in Kentucky's denying these 547 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 3: two men those answers. 548 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: Well, Maggie, I just it's been a pleasure to talk 549 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:14,479 Speaker 1: to you. I cannot wait to hear the rest of 550 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: Graves County. And I just really want to commend you 551 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: on the work, because it's very hard to loop me 552 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 1: in on these stories, but this one is just grabbed 553 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: me from the start, and as I said, a lot 554 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: of jaw dropping moments which must have been so much fun. 555 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 2: For you to report on exactly. Thank you. It's always 556 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 2: great talking with you. And maybe we'll get a drink. 557 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: After that sounds good. The first two episodes of Graves 558 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: County will be out on July thirtieth, right here in 559 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: the Bone Valley Feed. Subscribers to Lava for Good plus 560 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,719 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts will be able to listen to the 561 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: entire series the same in day