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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to blow your mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday.

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Speaker 1: Time for a Vault episode. This one originally aired November nine,

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Speaker 1: and it was about the Binny jesseret of Dune. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this was of course a lot of fun to put together.

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Speaker 1: Dune fans, especially be if you having to be fans

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Speaker 1: of of the books or fans of the new movie

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Speaker 1: adaptation which would have come out last year. And so

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Speaker 1: now we're all eagerly awaiting done part two. Well, while

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Speaker 1: you're waiting, while you're waiting for more details about that

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Speaker 1: production to to roll in, or while you're rereading done novels,

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Speaker 1: why not fire this episode up and get in touch

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Speaker 1: with the bennijest. Put your hand in the box, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: put it in there. You've heard of animals chewing awful

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Speaker 1: leg to escape a trap. There's an animal kind of trick.

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Speaker 1: He men would remain in the trap, endure the pain,

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Speaker 1: feigning death that he might kill the trapper and remove

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Speaker 1: a threat to his kind. Once men turned their thinking

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Speaker 1: over to machines and hopes that this would set them free,

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Speaker 1: but that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Speaker 1: The Greats Revolt took away a crutch. It forced human

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Speaker 1: minds to develop. Schools were started to train human talents.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to stot to Blow Your Mind production of My

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick and Robert.

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Speaker 1: I know, ever since that New Dune movie came out,

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Speaker 1: you have been just itching to do another Science of

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Speaker 1: Done episode like the ones we did a few years back.

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Speaker 1: But obviously that happened right in the middle of October

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Speaker 1: when we had a bunch of other stuff planned. So

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Speaker 1: it seems like today is the day the spillover from

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Speaker 1: October is continuing yet again. Uh yeah, and I mean

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Speaker 1: in a way it's a spillover from the October from

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Speaker 1: before last. It was about the original release date for

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Speaker 1: the new Done adaptation. Oh my god, you're right. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, we, like a lot of people have been

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Speaker 1: have been really hungry for this film to come out, um,

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Speaker 1: because I knew it would also just in general reignite

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Speaker 1: um my fascination with the Done universe. Um, and you know,

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Speaker 1: introduced new people to the Done universe. Um. And of

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Speaker 1: course to correspond with that, we would need to go

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Speaker 1: back in and do some new Doune episodes. Um, because

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Speaker 1: like you said, we did a few, or we did

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Speaker 1: a couple years ago, um, and now we're dipping back in.

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Speaker 1: I think that was my first or second year on

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Speaker 1: the show, so it was a long time ago. Now, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was quite a while. And and since then we've

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Speaker 1: had people fairly frequently right in and say, oh, you

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Speaker 1: should do some more of those. We'd like to hear

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Speaker 1: more of those. So well, here you go. You asked

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Speaker 1: for it, You're gonna get it. I think, uh, I think,

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Speaker 1: I think we may be doing a couple of episodes here,

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Speaker 1: but I thought we'd start with the ben and ingesti

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Speaker 1: it um with a with a particular focus on the

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Speaker 1: gom Jabbar awareness test. So this is a pivotal early

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Speaker 1: scene in the book, and it's also a memorable sequence

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Speaker 1: from all three adaptations. Um that it's it's one of

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Speaker 1: those things where it occurs so early in the novel

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Speaker 1: that even if you try to read Dune and didn't

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Speaker 1: finish it, you probably read this part because it happens

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Speaker 1: almost immediately. I read this scene several times before I

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Speaker 1: actually made it all the way through the book. I

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Speaker 1: don't remember if I mentioned this on the show before,

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Speaker 1: but when I first tried to read the book, I

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Speaker 1: think one of the big problems as I was reading

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Speaker 1: a really bad paperback copy with extremely tiny print and

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Speaker 1: small margins. Have you come across this this mass printing. Oh,

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Speaker 1: it's like a it's on microfilm and it has a

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Speaker 1: little magnifier that comes out of the spine. Yes, it's

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Speaker 1: the Orange Catholic Bible version. It's not very fun to read. Uh,

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Speaker 1: And so I never actually completed the book until I

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Speaker 1: got like a more readable physical copy. Well that makes sense,

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Speaker 1: that makes sense. But so I remember this scene quite

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Speaker 1: well because I've been through it a number of times. Well, Um,

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Speaker 1: before we're going further though, I want to drive home

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Speaker 1: a few different points here. So first of all, as

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Speaker 1: much as possible, we're focusing on the first book and

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Speaker 1: its adaptations, uh, the stuff that most people are going

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Speaker 1: to be familiar with. So we're we're gonna try not to,

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Speaker 1: for the most part, go too deep and get into

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Speaker 1: territory that that casual Dune enthusiasts will not understand. Also,

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Speaker 1: along those lines, we have to stress that we are

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Speaker 1: not done experts. We are not lower masters, um, as

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Speaker 1: much as we we like uh the world here, um,

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Speaker 1: I believe. Let's say you've only read the first novel

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Speaker 1: correct and I've it's been a while since I've read

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Speaker 1: the others. I'm actually diving back in right now. So

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Speaker 1: basically what I'm saying is we may get something wrong,

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Speaker 1: we may misinterpret something in the books, and if that happens, well,

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Speaker 1: you know right in, we're happy to be corrected. Now.

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Speaker 1: Another thing I want to stress here is that I

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Speaker 1: have not read Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson's prequel

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Speaker 1: in sequel books, so I can't speak to any lower

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Speaker 1: choices made in those books. Uh. I'd love to hear

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Speaker 1: from anyone who has read them as it relates to

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Speaker 1: what we're discussing here. Um. And I'm all for folks

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Speaker 1: enjoying these books, but again, uh, they're not something I

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Speaker 1: have read. I should also point out that I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: probably reference the Nine four Dune Encyclopedia a little bit.

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Speaker 1: This is one of my most treasured books. I I

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Speaker 1: fondly remember reading a very ragged copy of it in

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Speaker 1: the library when I was a kid. Um And I'm not.

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Speaker 1: I think I could check it out. It wasn't They

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Speaker 1: didn't classify it as a reference, so you could check

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Speaker 1: this book out. And I spent a lot of time

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Speaker 1: reading through through that, and I somehow picked a copy

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Speaker 1: up for like twenty bucks several years ago. It goes

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Speaker 1: for crazy amounts on eBay. Now. But wait, which library

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Speaker 1: was this? What? What library had a copy of the

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Speaker 1: Dune Encyclopedia. It was just a small town Tennessee library. Yeah, wow,

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Speaker 1: they just had it. And um, you know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: Dun's popularity is widespread, so I guess it's not that

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Speaker 1: that's strange. But yeah, it was very ragged and um,

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Speaker 1: I was very fond of it. And then he had

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Speaker 1: had to look up a copy of the years later.

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Speaker 1: It's it's long out of print. It's probably never going

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Speaker 1: to be in print again. Um. And it's also not

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Speaker 1: entirely Cannon um. But I refer to it anyway because

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Speaker 1: it's awesome. Uh. It was. It was an approved work

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Speaker 1: at the time, with an encouraging intro from Frank Herbert Um,

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Speaker 1: but it was written by various other authors. But if

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Speaker 1: you get a chance to look through it, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: grab grab it. Because it has recipes, it has wonderful

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Speaker 1: illustrations that has all of this additional background info. It

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Speaker 1: seems this is just me looking in for them as

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Speaker 1: part from the outside, but it seems like as a whole.

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Speaker 1: With Like with Doune Lore, you basically have like three

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Speaker 1: different tiers. They're the original Herbert novels, the Frank Herbert novels.

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Speaker 1: There's there's the lore of the Dune encyclopedia, and then

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Speaker 1: there's the additional um arm of it that is created

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Speaker 1: by by his son Brian Herbert and his novels sequel

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Speaker 1: prequel novels. Oh no, So, now that there's a big

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Speaker 1: release of Dune by I guess it's by a subsidiary

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Speaker 1: of Warner Brothers. Is that right? Are we gonna get

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Speaker 1: a situation like Star Wars where now canon is being

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Speaker 1: decided by the media corporation that owns the rights to

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Speaker 1: the Dune movie. Um? I don't think so, because I

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Speaker 1: think it's kind of a h I think there's a

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Speaker 1: certain amount of control held by m by Brian Herbert.

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Speaker 1: If I'm not okay, if I'm not mistaken, UM, I

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Speaker 1: don't so. I don't know exactly how it's how it's

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Speaker 1: gonna work out, but I don't think it's quite at

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Speaker 1: the like the Disney level where you have like a

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Speaker 1: council that decides on on matters I have. I think

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Speaker 1: the plan still is that we're going to get a

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Speaker 1: Binny jesser At television series, so that's going to be interesting. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but what I want to know is, like, is the

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Speaker 1: Done Encyclopedia's recipe for spice melange omelets going to be

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Speaker 1: you know, B canon or ccnon or what's the Oh yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that that the the pre Disney Lucas you know, multi

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Speaker 1: tiered classification system. Uh, yeah, that's pre Disney. Sorry, I

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Speaker 1: can't keep on. I think Disney came in and simplified

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Speaker 1: matters to a certain extent. So I don't think there

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Speaker 1: is many classifications. But um so, I don't know who

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Speaker 1: knows what will happen with Done if Done can that's

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Speaker 1: assuming like DONE has like real staying power is a

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Speaker 1: mainstream commodity. I hope it does. I hope that that

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Speaker 1: we see at least through Doing Messiah with this this

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Speaker 1: current slate of films. Oh, I guess I hadn't said,

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Speaker 1: by the way, but I finally did see the new

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Speaker 1: movie and it's absolutely marvelous, just amazing, excellently. Yeah, well

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Speaker 1: we'll have to to chat more and more about that.

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Speaker 1: Um So, so let's go ahead and just talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about the background of the Benigester, like who

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Speaker 1: are the Benigesta and how they feature into the world

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Speaker 1: of Dune. Um you know, for many of you, this

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Speaker 1: is going to be just stuff you already know. Others

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Speaker 1: you might be a little foggy on some of the details.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know if if you've only watched the film,

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Speaker 1: maybe you picked up on most of this, but maybe

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Speaker 1: not all of it. So Dune takes place in the

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Speaker 1: distant future. Humans have spread out from Old Earth and

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Speaker 1: they've inhabited various worlds. While they encounter native organisms on

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Speaker 1: these planets, including the mighty sandworms of Iracus, they do

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Speaker 1: not encounter other intelligent life forms. So subsequently, there are

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Speaker 1: there are no intelligent life forms in the Dune universe

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Speaker 1: that are not human or at least human derived. By

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Speaker 1: the later works, Old Earth is said to be gone,

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Speaker 1: and we just have this vast diaspora of human colonized worlds.

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Speaker 1: All right, So there's a big interplanetary empire spans a

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Speaker 1: big chunk of the galaxy, but it is not populated

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Speaker 1: by all different types of intelligent aliens like say the

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Speaker 1: star Wars universes, right, and so that's something that definitely

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Speaker 1: makes it stand apart from some of these other, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, sci fi franchises. Now, I suppose that's like

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Speaker 1: the first big historical point in the Done Universe is

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Speaker 1: people left Earth and started colonizing other worlds. But the

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Speaker 1: other big one, uh, and this one, you know, sets

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Speaker 1: it apart from from from a number of sci fi

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Speaker 1: visions as well, is that you have this thing called

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Speaker 1: the Butlerian Jihad, in which these spacefaring humans rebelled against

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Speaker 1: their alliance on so called thinking machines, on computers and

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Speaker 1: conscious AI and and also more subtly, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's implied against a machine way of thinking. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: so this gives rise to one of the most unique

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Speaker 1: things about the sci fi setting of Dune. It is

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Speaker 1: a space faring science fiction saga without computers in it,

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Speaker 1: or I mean mostly without computers instead. Uh, Computing tasks

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Speaker 1: in the Done Universe are done by humans who specially

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Speaker 1: train their brains to do the kinds of things computers

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Speaker 1: with norm only have to do. So you have figures

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Speaker 1: like the men Tats, you know, sort of human computers,

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Speaker 1: or the Guild Navigators who would do what a computer

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Speaker 1: would do in most other sci fi. Right. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: they're all obeying these various edicts like thou shalt not

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Speaker 1: create a machine and the likeness of a human mind,

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Speaker 1: or thou shalt not disfigure the soul. Uh. There's a

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Speaker 1: great quote in the appendix to doon Um to the

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Speaker 1: novel that says, then came the butlet and Jahad, two

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Speaker 1: generations of chaos. The god of machine logic was overthrown

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Speaker 1: among the masses, and a new concept raised. Man may

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Speaker 1: not be replaced. And I know we've talked about this before,

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Speaker 1: but I always thought that there's an interesting touch the

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Speaker 1: idea that, uh, that it's not just like the war

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Speaker 1: with the machines imagined and say the Terminator films, where

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Speaker 1: it's well, the machines wanted to destroy us, so we

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Speaker 1: fought back against them. There is more of a suggestion

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Speaker 1: of kind of subtle psychological revolt and in more complexity

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Speaker 1: to the conflict between humans and thinking machines that a

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Speaker 1: lot of the conflict seems to have been rooted in

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Speaker 1: human resentment of what the thinking machines represented within human culture. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I always liked how that idea seemed to have

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Speaker 1: been given room to breathe. You know. Um, it's not like,

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Speaker 1: here's here's blow by blow what happened during the Balerian Jahade.

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Speaker 1: Here's sort of forced to, uh, to imagine what it

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Speaker 1: might have consisted of. Yeah, it happened like ten thousand

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Speaker 1: years ago and is now the basis of of major

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Speaker 1: religions of the of the Empire in Dune. Now. The

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Speaker 1: Butalerian Jahade is said to have lasted from the year

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Speaker 1: two hundred b G to the year one oh eight

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Speaker 1: b G. And I know some of you are saying, well,

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Speaker 1: what what is b G? What does this mean? This

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Speaker 1: means before Guild, which leads to the next point. Without

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Speaker 1: without thinking machines, humans had to turn largely inward in

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Speaker 1: order to manage this interstellar civilization, and without thinking machines

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Speaker 1: to augment human cognition, they had to enhance human cognition itself.

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Speaker 1: And this, believe brings us to these different classes of

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Speaker 1: of humans and human faction. So we have the Spacing Guild.

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Speaker 1: We're told it's a mental physical training school aimed at

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Speaker 1: developing humans capable of handling space travel, particularly the dangerous

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Speaker 1: navigation of hyperspace that was key to interstellar travel. And

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Speaker 1: this is actually where you know, if you know anything

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Speaker 1: about doing, you've probably heard the phrase the spice must flow.

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Speaker 1: You know that it has something to do with a

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Speaker 1: brutal contest for a natural resource known as spice, and

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Speaker 1: uh the role and so I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: people have, you know, critics have compared spice to oil,

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Speaker 1: say in the real world, saying that it's this all

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Speaker 1: important natural resource that makes basically everything in the economy possible.

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Speaker 1: It makes uh, it makes travel possible, it makes delivery

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Speaker 1: of goods and services possible, and that is largely the

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Speaker 1: case in Dune, but not by being an energy source

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Speaker 1: that powers spaceships, but rather the spice is a drug

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Speaker 1: that makes the naval gaition of space by human minds possible.

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Speaker 1: That's right, Yeah, we're told that it It basically allows

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Speaker 1: members of the Space and Guild and navigators in particular,

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Speaker 1: to see possible futures, to see just a little bit

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Speaker 1: into the future so that they can avoid all the

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Speaker 1: various disasters that are can occur during this, uh, this

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Speaker 1: sort of space travel. Yeah, so like you, you take

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Speaker 1: the spice and then you can kind of hallucinate fractal

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Speaker 1: mathematics that allow you to to to see enough into

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Speaker 1: the future, or or see possible futures well enough that

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Speaker 1: you can navigate the harsh terrain of outer space or

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Speaker 1: folded space in particular. I'm not sure exactly what that means,

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Speaker 1: but it's how they travel between the stars, right. And then,

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Speaker 1: like we mentioned O there, they're also the mintats, the

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Speaker 1: humans bread and trained to act in the place of

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Speaker 1: computers and thinking machines. Uh, kind of futuristic savants, capable

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Speaker 1: of carrying out really advanced computations in their head and

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Speaker 1: also I guess just carrying around a lot of information. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you might see them as a kind of advisor or

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Speaker 1: CONCEI leary, who has an internal computer within their brain. Right.

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Speaker 1: I have to say, I like in the new film

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Speaker 1: how they they had a ment AT's sort of rolling

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Speaker 1: their eyes back in their head while computing things. This

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Speaker 1: is kind of a nice visual touch, totally, I can.

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Speaker 1: I think that's one of the challenges of any of

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Speaker 1: these adaptations of of Done is that there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of written material that you either have to, you know,

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Speaker 1: just commit to including a lot of narration and added

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Speaker 1: dialogue about what they are and how they operate, or

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Speaker 1: you need to find and focus on ways to visually

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Speaker 1: represent them. And uh, and I think all the films

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Speaker 1: have have succeeded to varying degrees in that, you know,

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Speaker 1: like these these characters look like that, they all look

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Speaker 1: like this, they all have this hairstyle or lack of hairstyle.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is I think always going to be

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Speaker 1: one of the real difficulties in adapting Dune like a lot.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Dune is not unique in this regard. A

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Speaker 1: lot of great science fiction and fantasy works. The real

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Speaker 1: pleasure in them is in the world that this tablish.

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Speaker 1: It's like a really richly imagined, an interesting alternate world.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of the pleasure of the story comes

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Speaker 1: in getting a lot of that rich detail about the world.

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Speaker 1: But how do you, yeah, how do you cram that

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Speaker 1: into a narrative? How do you put that on screen

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Speaker 1: without just like explaining it. You could have a narrator

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Speaker 1: just telling the audience a bunch of stuff, but that

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Speaker 1: can get really tedious. So how do you do it?

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Speaker 1: And I think again, the new movie I think mostly

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Speaker 1: navigates this really well. It finds good, succinct ways to

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Speaker 1: communicate some of these rich, strange details of the situation. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: or it's seen that way to me as well. Though,

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Speaker 1: I'd love to hear from anyone out there who just

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Speaker 1: went into this cult um, because I've only heard like

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Speaker 1: one secondhand account of this where someone's, you know, they

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Speaker 1: thought the baron was the emperor sort of a thing like.

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Speaker 1: So I'm wondering if that's like a common misconception based

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Speaker 1: on not knowing what to expect or um, if that's

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Speaker 1: you know, just something that this individual had, Well, I mean,

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Speaker 1: that could be a totally fair criticism. If you go

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Speaker 1: in unfamiliar the Dune world, I think this problem is

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Speaker 1: going to be sort of inevitable. Like the Dune world,

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Speaker 1: it's just a lot, there's a lot of detail. It's

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Speaker 1: very complicated. If you're going to tell the story in

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Speaker 1: the kind of rich way that that makes it come alive,

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Speaker 1: a lot of that detail is going to be in there,

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Speaker 1: and so it can be easy to miss things than

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Speaker 1: all right, Well, let's come back to the Beni Jessa.

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Speaker 1: So the Benagessri are related to these other groups, but

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Speaker 1: they till they predate both of them. Uh. They so

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Speaker 1: they expanded with humanity across the stars and the whole

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Speaker 1: time they're kind of working in the shadows, functioning in

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Speaker 1: many cases like a shadow government and behind the guise

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Speaker 1: of a semi mystical organization. They're a mostly female organization

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Speaker 1: who are particularly adept at manipulating religious culture. Uh. They

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Speaker 1: have seemed to have abilities related to mind control and hypnosis.

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Speaker 1: They have intense physical and mental conditioning that make them

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Speaker 1: really potent operative in combatants. So you know, they can

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Speaker 1: really hold their own and we see them do that

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Speaker 1: in the movie, of course, um at least in what

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Speaker 1: we see Jessica Paul's mom to it. She is of

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Speaker 1: course a Bennie jess Rate. They also make use of

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Speaker 1: spice themselves to sort of enhance these talents, and we're

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Speaker 1: also told they're aided by a kind of union collective

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Speaker 1: on consciousness. One thing I think is interesting about the

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Speaker 1: Bennie Jesser it is they exist within the Dune universe

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Speaker 1: kind of at the boundary of of hard science fiction

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Speaker 1: and fantasy, because there's a lot that they do that

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Speaker 1: seems right on the border of is this magic, right

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Speaker 1: like Dune doesn't include overt magic, you know, you don't

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Speaker 1: have people who are majores or casting spells or anything.

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Speaker 1: But the Bennie jesser It in particular, can do a

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Speaker 1: lot of things that it is assumed that there is

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Speaker 1: no magic involved, and they are working by just some

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Speaker 1: kind of obscure physical mechanism, but you might not understand

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Speaker 1: what that mechanism is, right, and they guard their secrets

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Speaker 1: to But this also the to their critics saying, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: they're a bunch of witches. That's witchcraft what they're doing now.

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Speaker 1: One of their big games in the in the books,

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Speaker 1: of course, is especially the first book is the selective

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Speaker 1: breeding of the Quissot's hot iraq uh not a mirror

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Speaker 1: men tab, but a kind of super men tab. They

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Speaker 1: want to make essentially a living some supercomputer uh quote,

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Speaker 1: one who can be many places at once. And Herbert

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Speaker 1: explains uh quote in simpler terms, what they sought was

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Speaker 1: a human with mental powers permitting him to understand and

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Speaker 1: use higher order dimensions. And this fits into a very

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Speaker 1: complicated power seeking plot that they have about essentially trying

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Speaker 1: to create a galactic messiah. Right. So um I guess.

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Speaker 1: In short, the Benidgesster, I mean, you say all these

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Speaker 1: things out loud in a quick summary, it's it's it's

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Speaker 1: an awful lot um, you know, in terms of like,

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Speaker 1: you know, you're gonna fit this faction into a movie

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Speaker 1: along with all these other interesting factions and families and

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Speaker 1: so forth, and not to mention the various technologies and organisms, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, all all all the more credit to any

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Speaker 1: of these adaptations that have pulled that off. Uh. They

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Speaker 1: have a lot of tricks up their sleeve, many of

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Speaker 1: which might seem like witchcraft of the casual observer. But

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Speaker 1: we're gonna come back to that. That that first big

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Speaker 1: one that we see, the sort of our int our

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Speaker 1: real introduction to the Benegestraate is of course the gom

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Speaker 1: Jabbar awareness test. All right, this is the scene we

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Speaker 1: were talking about right at the beginning of the novel

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Speaker 1: that I've read multiple times. Yeah, I even read up

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Speaker 1: to around this part to my son, thinking like I

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Speaker 1: picked up soon after many years and maybe it's maybe

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Speaker 1: he'd like it. Uh, And we got made about that fire,

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Speaker 1: and I was then I was reminded, oh, yeah, this

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Speaker 1: is maybe a little this is too dense for him.

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Speaker 1: Right now. You know, it will save this one for later.

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Speaker 1: But but yeah, it's a great scene and we're not

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Speaker 1: gonna We're not gonna spend I guess too much time

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Speaker 1: explaining what happens, you know, beat by beat. But but

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Speaker 1: here are the basics. Quick note. By the way, Um,

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Speaker 1: we're probably gonna end up saying tradees instead of the trades.

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Speaker 1: We're probably gonna if we get into the the heark

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Speaker 1: and Harconan's we're gonna mix those pronunciations up as well. Um,

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Speaker 1: there's of course kind of a back and forth I

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Speaker 1: guess about how you're supposed to say these things. The

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Speaker 1: main character of Dune is paula tradees. I've always said

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Speaker 1: a tradees. We when we didn't add for this movie,

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Speaker 1: they were like, no, you really need to say a

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Speaker 1: tree eddies, which you said, is apparently how how Frank

397
00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:23,200
Speaker 1: Herbert said it at some point, But I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I've always heard of tradees. That's how I've always said it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Herbert said a treedes, and he said hearken. And but

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm of the mind too that ultimately these

401
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,240
Speaker 1: books live in our brains and sometimes there's a pronunciation

402
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:39,160
Speaker 1: there that doesn't match up with with reality, and it's

403
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Speaker 1: just how it goes, all right. So in this scene

404
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Speaker 1: we have Paula Trayedes, the son of Duke Leto Trades,

405
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Speaker 1: and he's there with Lady Jessica Um Benny jess as

406
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Speaker 1: sister installed in the Tradees household Um as part of

407
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Speaker 1: the breeding program, Jessica was supposed to have a daughter

408
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Speaker 1: who would then go on to birth the Quizatts Hotter atch,

409
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Speaker 1: but then she defied them and had a son instead Um.

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Speaker 1: And then that son, of course, is Paul. And Paul

411
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Speaker 1: has dreams and sometimes those dreams come true. So the

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Speaker 1: Benejesterate send Reverend Mother Guias Helen Mahaam to test him.

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Speaker 1: And Maham is not only a high ranking Benajesterriate, she

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Speaker 1: is the Imperial Truthsayer and probably one of the most

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Speaker 1: dangerous humans in this entire fictional galaxy. So she's like

416
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Speaker 1: a mega Bennie Jesterrich. She knows all the tricks, all

417
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Speaker 1: the secret skills. You do not want to get on

418
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Speaker 1: her bad side, right, And Charlotte Rampling did a great job,

419
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Speaker 1: by the way, I really hope he performance. Yeah, she's

420
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Speaker 1: really good. So what does she do? She conducts this

421
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Speaker 1: gone Jabbar awareness test on Paul. He's told to place

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Speaker 1: his hand into a small, curious green box and then

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Speaker 1: she holds this like she has this little needle thing

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Speaker 1: called the gone jabar. She holds it to his neck. Uh,

425
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 1: And here's the situation, she lays it out. If you

426
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,280
Speaker 1: take your hand out of this box, I'm gonna jab

427
00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,119
Speaker 1: you in the neck with this pointy thing. Um, the

428
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 1: gonjabar here is essentially a poison needle that will just

429
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:08,160
Speaker 1: absolutely kill you dead. It contains uh, meta cyanide I think,

430
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,919
Speaker 1: she says, yes, meta cyanide so you might be prepared

431
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:16,640
Speaker 1: for sanide, but not meta sanide um. The box so meta.

432
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,880
Speaker 1: The box is far more subtle, though. So you stick

433
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 1: your hand in this box and it will begin to

434
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 1: tingle with sensation, you know, like maybe you know, just

435
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 1: some maybe eventually an itching begins. But eventually, and rather quickly,

436
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 1: this is going to grow into an all consuming feeling

437
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 1: of pain. And generally speaking, I think people who stick

438
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:37,399
Speaker 1: their hand in the box, they just they imagine that

439
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:41,120
Speaker 1: their hand is just on fire, just crumbling into ashes,

440
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 1: and there eventually, right it says, I think specifically that

441
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,639
Speaker 1: when when the pain increases in intensity. Paul believes that

442
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 1: his hand is being charred away and just turned into

443
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 1: a stump. Yeah. So you know, Paul, Paul has a

444
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,359
Speaker 1: lot of questions and he's maybe a little bold and

445
00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,440
Speaker 1: asking them at times. And during this this session, he asked,

446
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 1: what's in the box and she's like, it's pain pains

447
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 1: in the box. And he's like okay, and but she

448
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 1: keeps on going. Um, she says, you've heard of animals

449
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,239
Speaker 1: chewing off a leg to escape a trap. There's an

450
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 1: animal kind of trick. A human would remain in the trap,

451
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:18,119
Speaker 1: endure the pain, feigning death that he might kill the

452
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 1: trapper and remove a threat to his kind. Okay, So

453
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 1: she's making a distinction here about ways of responding to

454
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 1: a threat, responding with just sort of with with panic

455
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 1: or with with strategy. Right, And Mahiam explains that this

456
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,879
Speaker 1: this is a testacy if Paul is a human or

457
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 1: an animal and why when Paul asked, why are you

458
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,120
Speaker 1: testing for humans? He replies to set you free? And

459
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 1: and then she goes back to the whole butt Larry

460
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 1: and Johada a bit and says, quote, once men turned

461
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 1: their thinking over to machines and hopes that this would

462
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:49,919
Speaker 1: set them free, but that only permitted other men with

463
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 1: machines to enslave them. The Great Revolt took away a crutch.

464
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: It forced human minds to develop. Schools were started to

465
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,199
Speaker 1: train human talents, and from here she goes on to

466
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 1: explain that the the two main schools to emerge from

467
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 1: this ancient shift where the Guild focusing on mathematics and

468
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 1: the Benagesserate focusing on politics. Now that word kind of

469
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 1: rings strange in the context, but I think I think

470
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 1: it makes sense if you work it out. Yeah, like

471
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 1: to to reach this point where you're like, oh, they're

472
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 1: there there, which is their psychic they have. They have

473
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:23,360
Speaker 1: crazy technology, they they have martial arts, they're super into politics.

474
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 1: That makes them sound like, oh, oh my good god,

475
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 1: what topic are they going to insist on talking to

476
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 1: me about? Um right, um it? Politics? I think can

477
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:36,160
Speaker 1: sound a bit lame as the superpower of the Benagestrate,

478
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 1: but yeah, we have to I think we have to

479
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:42,479
Speaker 1: realize they're talking about politics here in the grander scheming sense,

480
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 1: and not a shake hands and kiss babies sort of

481
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 1: thing or a um, you know, the sort of politics

482
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 1: that one sees on television every day. Yeah, well, I

483
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:52,880
Speaker 1: mean there are multiple ways in which that could be misleading.

484
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 1: I mean, one thing I think it's worth noting is

485
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 1: that when I hear the word politics, I automatically tend

486
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: to assume a kind of basically democratic electoral context, where

487
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: even when the word has negative connotations, those negative connotations

488
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 1: are against that background. So it might have to do

489
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 1: with people lying or misrepresenting their priorities, or engaging in

490
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 1: petty corruption, or putting their private interests above the public interests,

491
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 1: and so forth, all things that are bad, but on

492
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 1: a different frequency than the political situation of the Done universe.

493
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 1: Because the political system of the Dune universe is hard

494
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 1: to describe succinctly, but I think could best be seen

495
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: as something like techno feudalism or maybe sort of interplanetary

496
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,919
Speaker 1: fascist imperialism with it with a special political difference to

497
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,239
Speaker 1: trade guilds. But whatever it is, it is certainly not

498
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 1: electoral democracy. It's not a good political situation. So that

499
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 1: the use of politics in the Binni Jessert sense, I

500
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 1: think should be understood as expertise in manipulating human institutions

501
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 1: and seeking power and authority within a ruthless, high hierarchical empire. Yeah.

502
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 1: I think that sums it up pretty well. So this test,

503
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 1: this Gone Gibar awareness test, we learn, is ultimately about

504
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 1: giving the proctor of this test the chance to see

505
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 1: how the individual reacts to intense stress, and in doing so,

506
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 1: test them on their use of benegestriate teachings which Paul

507
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: had been instructed in by his mother. Mild spoiler, Paul

508
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 1: passes the test. He does not die like you know,

509
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,919
Speaker 1: five minutes into the film. Good job, Paul. Now at

510
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 1: this point I thought we might get into some explanations

511
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,199
Speaker 1: for what's actually going on in this test, were supposed

512
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 1: to be going on in this test, how we might

513
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,880
Speaker 1: interpret it. Um, you know, I guess in many respects,

514
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 1: the test is pretty simple. You know, you got a

515
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,400
Speaker 1: needle with a drop of poison on it. You got

516
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 1: this box, And Mahaim says that the secret of the

517
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 1: box is something lots of folks would love to have,

518
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 1: you know, because clearly there there are plenty of bad

519
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: characters in the universe who would like to cause pain. Uh.

520
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 1: It's said to work via nerve inducers, creating a sensation

521
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,399
Speaker 1: of intense you know, ultimately burning pain without actually causing

522
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:07,159
Speaker 1: physical damage. Now, I mentioned the Dune Encyclopedia, and I

523
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 1: just want to point out that, interestingly, interestingly enough, it

524
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 1: does not really tap and tackle this topic at all.

525
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: It's a book that goes all in on things like

526
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 1: how the molecular structure of milange might work, or exactly

527
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 1: how xcon no rooms might function. But they pretty much

528
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 1: left the Gonjibar awareness test alone, which I was I

529
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 1: was kind of surprised that. I was like, there must

530
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:30,679
Speaker 1: be a huge entry to this about this that I

531
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 1: just never read. That's interesting. But of course there was

532
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 1: an article about the gom Jabbar that got into some

533
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 1: interesting stuff in another book we've referenced. This one definitely

534
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: came up in our previous episodes on the Science of Dune.

535
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 1: And the book is actually called The Science of Dune,

536
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: published in two thousand and eight. It is edited by

537
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: Kevin R. Grazier, and there is a chapter on the

538
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,719
Speaker 1: gom Jabbar called the Black Hole of Pain by an

539
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: author named Carol Hart. This is still very much in print,

540
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: by the way, so if you're interested, you can definitely

541
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 1: grab a copy. Oh yeah, a lot of the essays

542
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 1: in this book are pretty interesting. Mostly what they do

543
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 1: is they take one of the concepts explained in Dune

544
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: and they talk about its situation within the Dune universe,

545
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: but then try to relate it to real world science

546
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 1: or sort of situate its UH, its role in the

547
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 1: narrative within the context of real world science. And so

548
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: that this essay by Carol Hart is all about the

549
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 1: com jibar scene and UH and and how it relates

550
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 1: to some of the neuroscience of pain. So one of

551
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: the things she says at the beginning of this essay

552
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: is that, of course the hand is quote exquisitely sensitive

553
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 1: to painful and non painful stimuli. And I think we

554
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: all know this from experience. Generally, you know the hands

555
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:49,479
Speaker 1: are there's just so much more complexity of tactle feeling

556
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 1: going on there than there is in many other parts

557
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: of the body. I remember when I was a kid

558
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 1: and you would have to go to the doctor and

559
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: get a finger pricked um in order to give a

560
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 1: blood sample. I remember I used to think, why can't

561
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 1: they just like prick you on the back or on

562
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 1: the leg or something to get the blood sample, because

563
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: it seems like it's on the fingertip it hurts almost

564
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 1: more than it would just about anywhere else. I don't know.

565
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 1: Maybe some places I'm like, you know, the face or

566
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: a few other key points in the body might might

567
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: be as distressing, but the fingertip just it seemed unnecessarily

568
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 1: cruel to me. Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about.

569
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: I I try to regularly give blood at local blood drives,

570
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: and um, you know, I I don't want to stare

571
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 1: at the needle in my arm. Uh that's involved in

572
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 1: the actual blood draw. But I think if I had

573
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: to choose, like, what is what's my least favorite between

574
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 1: the needle in my arm and that that prick that

575
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: they do just to test your blood initially, Uh, it's

576
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 1: always that that prick because it's just it's just like

577
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 1: this sudden punching and there's this, you know, the sharp

578
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: sense of pain. It's very fleeting. Uh. And it's not

579
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 1: you know, it's not bad in terms of you know,

580
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 1: as far as all things go, but it is a

581
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 1: stark reminder of just how sensitive the fingers are. Yeah.

582
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: And I think there are multiple things going on here

583
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 1: with this exquisite sensitivity in the hands. I mean, one

584
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 1: thing is that the hands have to be very sensitive

585
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 1: in order to be dexterous. But there's also I believe

586
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: a conceptual sensitivity in that you you realize that the

587
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 1: hands in a way are more fragile than than other

588
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: parts of the body. You know that, uh, that you

589
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 1: you need them to do all kinds of things. So

590
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 1: an injury to the finger will will limit the things

591
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: you can do more more so than an equivalent, say

592
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 1: prick or injury on like the thigh or the or

593
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 1: the back or something would. Yeah. Now from here in

594
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: Heart's essay, she goes on to talk briefly about the

595
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 1: ways that pain pathways function within the body, what actually

596
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 1: happens when a pain sensation is triggered, say by an

597
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 1: injury to the hand. Uh. And so the first thing

598
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: she says is that most types of injuries to the

599
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 1: hand will result in triggering more or less identical pain

600
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 1: sensing receptors in the in the nervous system called no

601
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 1: susceptors pain sensors uh and the The one exception she

602
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 1: cites is certain kinds of like deep mechanical pressure or

603
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 1: crushing pain. But generally, she says, these no susceptors are

604
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: going to detect injuries without much reference to discriminating it's

605
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 1: it's type. So, for example, while different receptors in in

606
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: the tissues of the hand will be able to tell

607
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: the difference between a range of warm and cool temperatures,

608
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: extremes of heat or cold that would trigger these pain receptors,

609
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: they just register is undifferentiated pain and use the same

610
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: neural pathways. And so I thought that was kind of interesting.

611
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 1: And she uses that to tie into some of the

612
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 1: ambiguity of of what's going on with the box, because

613
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 1: of course Paul cannot see his hand in the box,

614
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: and he doesn't know what's happening to it. He just

615
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: knows something painful is happening, And so she uses this

616
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 1: to explain that the intense burning sensation he experiences could

617
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 1: be other things. It could that could include like extreme cold. Yeah.

618
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,719
Speaker 1: I always always like this as kind a model of

619
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: an exploration of just pain in general, because, as we've

620
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 1: touched on before, there's always a sensation of pain, but

621
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: then there's the mental world of thinking about the pain,

622
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 1: worrying about the pain, interpreting the pain. And in this,

623
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 1: you know, Paul's hand is literally in a in a

624
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 1: green but you know a black box where you can't

625
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 1: actually see what's going on in there. Well, it's actually both.

626
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: It's green on the outside, but then he says on

627
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 1: the inside, no light penetrates that. He says, it's like

628
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: a perfectly black interior that you can't see at all. Yeah,

629
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 1: But to review, like the sensations that the narrative says

630
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: Paul experience as while his hand is in the box, uh,

631
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 1: it says, first he feels cold, and then he feels

632
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 1: slick metal, and this is presumably contact with the inside

633
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: of the box. One thing, I don't know if you

634
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: remember this, but it's kind of strange that the dimensions

635
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 1: of the box are said to be very small. I

636
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 1: think it's said to be fifteen centimeters to to a side,

637
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: which means that's like six inches. I mean, I mean,

638
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 1: the it's really small to get the hand in there.

639
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 1: But anyway, after this, it goes on to Paul saying

640
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,800
Speaker 1: that he feels prickling, as if his hand were asleep,

641
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: and then this prickling turns into an itch, and then

642
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: from an itch it turns into burning, and then the

643
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 1: burning just increases and increases in intensity until it is excruciating.

644
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 1: And from here Carol Hart compares this to the sequence

645
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: of sensations when pain is usually felt from an injury

646
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 1: to the hands, such as burning or cutting. And there

647
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 1: are actually two different processes that go on here. I

648
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 1: thought this was kind of interesting. So the first one

649
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,839
Speaker 1: is you get a very fast response that travels on

650
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 1: what he calls fast pain fibers. These are sometimes called

651
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 1: type three nerve fibers or a delta fibers and uh.

652
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:51,879
Speaker 1: And this response is is very quick, so this would

653
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 1: be like, you know, a tenth of a second. Uh.

654
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 1: And and it's also usually not experienced as like a

655
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 1: miserable ongo experience. It is a quick, sharp sensation, usually

656
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,879
Speaker 1: something that prompts you to immediately withdraw your hand from

657
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 1: the source of the injury. And I think this is

658
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 1: one of the interesting things about pain when compared to

659
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 1: other types of sensory input, which is that in some

660
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:21,399
Speaker 1: cases at least, pain is almost synonymous with the behavioral

661
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 1: reaction to it. So what I mean by that is, uh,

662
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 1: you know a lot of other types of sensory input,

663
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,320
Speaker 1: you need to process them and then you know, judge

664
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 1: your reaction based on the situation. But if you if

665
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 1: you say, touch a hot stove or something your hand

666
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 1: is withdrawn before you have even thought about it, and

667
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,359
Speaker 1: it's like after your hand is off it, then you're like,

668
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 1: oh wow, what just happened? You know, you have to

669
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 1: process it backwards, which is interesting. I mean, I can't

670
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 1: really think of much other sensory information that works that way,

671
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:59,359
Speaker 1: just just prompting absolutely immediate, unthinking response that you can

672
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,919
Speaker 1: only reflect sicked on backwards. Yeah, it is that that

673
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 1: that that sharp, intense message. I'll say, it's basically saying,

674
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 1: finger is in contact with something that is burning finger,

675
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 1: Remove finger from said substance their object, you know, uh,

676
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 1: immediate reaction. But then Heart goes on to explain that

677
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,320
Speaker 1: there's a secondary type of pain actually that that travels

678
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 1: via a different neural pathway. So this would be what

679
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,399
Speaker 1: she calls the slow pain fibers. These were also known

680
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 1: as type four or sea fibers, and this refers to

681
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,240
Speaker 1: the pathway from the nerve endings in the tissue actually

682
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 1: flowing all the way up the spinal cord and connecting

683
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:40,280
Speaker 1: to the brain. And these fibers, the slow pain fibers,

684
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,319
Speaker 1: they take longer to get running. They need, she says,

685
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 1: at least a full second to get the message. To

686
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,399
Speaker 1: the brain and then from here these turn into a

687
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 1: more building, persistent sensation. That is the pain we're usually

688
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 1: thinking of as as the the ongoing experience of pain

689
00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,399
Speaker 1: when we've been injured. So this might be a kind

690
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 1: of burning or aching pain that persists. It will usually

691
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:07,399
Speaker 1: grow gradually worse over time. It often spreads out from

692
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 1: the original site of the injury, so you might have

693
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 1: a cut on the hand, but then you know by

694
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,320
Speaker 1: the time it builds over the course of seconds or

695
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 1: minutes that you know the whole hand is aching. Is

696
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 1: there's this radiating UH quality to it, and then also

697
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 1: has something to do with the immune system's inflammation response,

698
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 1: which is the sort of all purpose first responder to

699
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 1: cellular trauma and the body inflammation is of course also

700
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 1: highly associated with pain and sensitivity to further stimuli, causing

701
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 1: even greater pain. And so this transition from the initial

702
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 1: fast pain fibers to the slow pain fibers is what

703
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:46,399
Speaker 1: heart refers to as the double pain response. But there's

704
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 1: another way in which the information we get via the

705
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 1: C fiber pathways the slow pain pathways, how they differ

706
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 1: from other kinds of sensory input and UH and the

707
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 1: and The point that Heart makes is that, like many

708
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:06,399
Speaker 1: other kinds of sensory input, they really persist with repeated exposure. So,

709
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:09,400
Speaker 1: you know, we've talked on the show before about different

710
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 1: types of neural desensitization to two inputs that, uh, you know,

711
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 1: if you just repeatedly get the same sense information over

712
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 1: and over again in an unchanging way, it very often

713
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 1: fades into the background of consciousness. It somehow becomes invisible. So, uh,

714
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 1: this can be common with smells in your environment. So

715
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 1: you know, when you first come around the paper mill,

716
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 1: you can really smell it, but over the course of

717
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 1: some amount of time, probably a matter of minutes, you

718
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 1: just kind of get used to it, and then you

719
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 1: don't really notice that you smell it anymore. Yeah, Or

720
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,399
Speaker 1: like cooking smells another example of this. You know, you say,

721
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 1: cook a bunch of onions. You don't really notice how

722
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 1: this is affected the sense inside the house until you

723
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 1: step outside for a little bit and come back exactly. Yeah.

724
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 1: The same is true of sounds in your environment. So

725
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 1: environmental sounds, you know, the rain coming down outside, or

726
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 1: the refriger rate or humming. If it's just the same

727
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:06,280
Speaker 1: static sound input for a long time, you will pretty

728
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 1: quickly become accustomed to it and not notice it anymore

729
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 1: unless you, you know, stop to look for it or something.

730
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 1: And of course the same is true with tactle sensations

731
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 1: in the body, which would be the most analogous to

732
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 1: pain sensations. Uh. Pressure, as long as it's not painful,

733
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 1: will will work in this case. So the pressure, think

734
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 1: about the pressure of your clothes against your skin, or

735
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 1: your feet against the floor, or your butt against the chair.

736
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 1: It all kind of disappears from your consciousness after a

737
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,360
Speaker 1: few moments unless you either stop to think about it

738
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 1: or it happens to become uncomfortable. So all of these

739
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,879
Speaker 1: sensory stimuli tend to fade away rather quickly, but sea

740
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: fiber pain has a sticky quality and consciousness. It often

741
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 1: just keeps hurting until something changes, either the painful stimulus

742
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: is removed or the swelling goes down or healing takes place.

743
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: And in fact, not only does it persist, actually does

744
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 1: exactly the opposite in many cases. So you repeat the

745
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,800
Speaker 1: same sensory input in terms of most sounds or smells

746
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 1: and so forth, and you will eventually become desensitized to

747
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,399
Speaker 1: them until they disappear. But Heart notes that pain sensations

748
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 1: are subject to this opposite phenomenon that sometimes known as

749
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:22,319
Speaker 1: pain wind up or temporal summation, and this is where

750
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 1: the body becomes increasingly sensitive to unchanging painful stimulus. The

751
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 1: same painful stimulus is not getting more intense in terms

752
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,800
Speaker 1: of what's happening to your body. It just the same

753
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,840
Speaker 1: thing keeps happening, and it feels more and more painful

754
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 1: upon repetition. And Heart actually argues that increasing pain from

755
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 1: repeated nerve stimulation sounds very similar to what is described

756
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 1: in the scene, except with the interesting feature that the

757
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 1: pain stops completely in an instant when when the Reverend

758
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: Mother completes the test, she says, okay, Paul is past.

759
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 1: It's done, and then it says that Paul experienced the

760
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 1: pain going away as if you know, somebody flipped a switch,

761
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,280
Speaker 1: and pain in the body rarely does this. It rarely

762
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:13,880
Speaker 1: goes away that fast. Now, part of the whole point

763
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 1: of this scene in the book is the Reverend Mother's

764
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 1: claim that essentially you know it's it's all in your head.

765
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 1: She she mocks the idea of pain, and she says

766
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:27,320
Speaker 1: to Paul, a human can override any nerve in the body.

767
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:29,880
Speaker 1: And so she's saying, Oh, you're afraid of pain, that

768
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 1: just means you're weak. You know that you haven't figured

769
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 1: out how to how to overcome it like I can.

770
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 1: And so the question is is it true that you

771
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 1: know a human can override any nerve in the body?

772
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,839
Speaker 1: The idea that that pain is is all mental. Well,

773
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 1: I don't think that's entirely true, but the grain of

774
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 1: truth to it is that the experience of pain is

775
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:56,279
Speaker 1: subject to more inputs than simply the pure sensory stimulus

776
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 1: applied to the body, that is, you know, causing the injury,

777
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 1: causing the pain, in terms of the environmental input you know,

778
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:06,400
Speaker 1: the knife cutting the skin, or the the you know,

779
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,399
Speaker 1: the stick poking you, or the hot iron against your

780
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 1: hand or whatever it is. Uh And and some of

781
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 1: these inputs are cognitive. And so I think it's a

782
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 1: good way to approach this to reimagine pain not as

783
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 1: a sensory input in itself, but actually as an experience.

784
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 1: Uh And So here's the analogy I would use. It's

785
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,799
Speaker 1: much the same way that vision is not an input

786
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: from the eyes but an experience. The environmental input for

787
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:39,320
Speaker 1: vision would be light, but If you've listened to this

788
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 1: show for a while, you probably know that actually all

789
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 1: kinds of other inputs contribute to our experience of vision,

790
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:50,280
Speaker 1: such that a person can see things with no input

791
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 1: of light. So think about the the UH studies we've

792
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 1: talked about with hallucinations that occur in total darkness. A

793
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 1: person can have can be blindfolded, or can be down

794
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 1: in a cave or something where there's no light at all,

795
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,320
Speaker 1: and yet they can experience vision, they can see things,

796
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 1: and sometimes these things they see are not just you know,

797
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 1: hallucinations unconnected from reality. Sometimes these hallucinatory visions can include

798
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 1: real information based on other senses. The classic example I

799
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 1: think we've talked about on the show is, for example,

800
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:28,400
Speaker 1: UH the body using appropriate reception, so it's natural sense

801
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 1: that allows it to know where its own limbs are.

802
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 1: UH to feed into the visual system, allowing you to,

803
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 1: in the total absence of light, hallucinate the vision of

804
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 1: your own hands in front of your face. Or then

805
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:44,439
Speaker 1: on the other end, you can think about the way

806
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 1: that vision can receive inputs of light UH in an

807
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:52,799
Speaker 1: at least partially working visual system and have no conscious

808
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:56,720
Speaker 1: experience of visions. So think about cases such as blind site,

809
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 1: where a person is blind in terms of their conscious

810
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 1: experien riens, they do not experience vision, but they can

811
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 1: still do some things that show that the brain is

812
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 1: getting visual inputs in some way and reacting based on them.

813
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 1: The person is just not able to see it with

814
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 1: the conscious part of their brain. And so I think

815
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 1: pain is not equivalent to this in every respect, but

816
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 1: it's close in some ways. So you can think about,

817
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:22,479
Speaker 1: I don't know, you know, the hot thing on your hand,

818
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 1: is that's the external stimulus applied to the body. That

819
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 1: would be the environmental input, kind of like the light

820
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 1: in vision. But then this input is conducted through pain

821
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 1: fibers and brought to the brain and is one of

822
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 1: a number of contributors to the subjective mental experience of pain,

823
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 1: which itself consists of multiple independent components that can behave

824
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 1: somewhat independently. So they think about, you know, the different

825
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: parts of pain that you can sometimes even even sense yourself,

826
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:54,799
Speaker 1: like the the physical sensation of pain versus the emotional

827
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 1: component of pain, and they usually blend together into a

828
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 1: unified experience, but there can be you can you have

829
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,720
Speaker 1: sort of moments of clarity where you feel them uh,

830
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 1: in their own different ways. You get the texture of

831
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 1: each if you know what I'm talking about, Rob, Yeah, yeah,

832
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:13,319
Speaker 1: I think so. I mean there's this whole to like

833
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 1: the emotional context of of pain, like you you slip

834
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,439
Speaker 1: and fall, you you know, you hurt your back in

835
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 1: in the moment. Yeah, there's certainly they the sensation, but

836
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:24,919
Speaker 1: then there's all there are these added levels of like, well,

837
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:27,319
Speaker 1: am I gonna be able to walk after this um?

838
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:29,800
Speaker 1: Or is this going to be a pain that sticks

839
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,359
Speaker 1: with me? Um? You know, how long is it gonna

840
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 1: take for me to get get over this? Um? As

841
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 1: well as even considerations like does this mean my evening

842
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:41,279
Speaker 1: plans are off? Is this gonna cost me you know

843
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 1: a lot of money? Are you embarrassed? Are you embarrassed? Yeah?

844
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:49,279
Speaker 1: So there's there's so many things going on with with you,

845
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 1: even you know, I mean, I guess I fall unto

846
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 1: your back and be quite dramatic, but even just simple

847
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 1: things like um, you know, paper cut, you can you

848
00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 1: can have some of these thoughts like oh my goodness,

849
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:00,439
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to put where a band aid? Now

850
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:02,320
Speaker 1: if I have a band aid on, that's gonna affect

851
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 1: my typing? How's that going to impact my job performance today. Right. So,

852
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 1: addressing this question of like, what are the other measurable

853
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 1: inputs on the subjective total experience of pain in the

854
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 1: brain heart offers a really interesting example that's been backed

855
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:21,320
Speaker 1: up by some studies. And uh the example she gives

856
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 1: is your belief in the significance of the injury that

857
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 1: is causing the pain. Uh So, she cites behavioral studies

858
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 1: showing that if you you take people and you subject

859
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 1: them to the exact same sensory input. The example she

860
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 1: gives is a hand immersed in water that is too

861
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:42,840
Speaker 1: hot to be comfortable, so not not hot enough to

862
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:45,719
Speaker 1: actually like burn your skin at least for the time

863
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 1: of exposure used in the experiment, but more hot than feels. Okay,

864
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:53,840
Speaker 1: you take people in their hand in that hot temperature

865
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:58,799
Speaker 1: of water, and apparently people report less emotional experience of

866
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 1: pain if the only variable you alter is informing them

867
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 1: that they will not be injured by the hot water.

868
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 1: So if you say this will sting, but it's not

869
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 1: going to burn your skin, it's not going to injure

870
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 1: your hand, Apparently in that condition, people report less emotional

871
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 1: experience of pain. So, according to this example, you can

872
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 1: use verbal cues, You can use information that you recognize

873
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:26,359
Speaker 1: cognitively to regulate your own pain response. And so, if

874
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 1: you have more reason to worry that you may be

875
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:32,800
Speaker 1: injured by this thing that feels uncomfortable, then it actually

876
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 1: hurts more. If you're assured that you won't be injured,

877
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 1: it hurts less. And then on top of this, heart

878
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 1: identifies a couple of other inputs on the subjective experience

879
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 1: of pain. One I thought was interesting was the idea

880
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,319
Speaker 1: of the locus of control. Um So. The locus of

881
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:52,120
Speaker 1: control is a term used in psychology to explain whether

882
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:54,319
Speaker 1: or not you feel like you are the agent in

883
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 1: control of a situation. Do you have the ability to

884
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:01,919
Speaker 1: decide whether this pain stops or not? Uh so? One

885
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:05,960
Speaker 1: one good example would be, uh say, voluntarily grabbing a

886
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 1: hot dish out of the oven with only a thin

887
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:11,360
Speaker 1: towel to protect your hand. That might be briefly painful,

888
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 1: but then you, you know, put it down. I'm not

889
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:16,840
Speaker 1: recommending people do that, by the way, but but you

890
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 1: know so that that would be a thing that you

891
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 1: decided to do and you control when it stops, versus

892
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 1: having somebody say, press your hand against your will. Against

893
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:30,319
Speaker 1: something that's equivalently hot. Heart argues that the impression of

894
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 1: helplessness would actually increase the experience of pain in the

895
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:38,439
Speaker 1: second scenario. And it is kind of interesting to apply

896
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 1: that to Paul's situation because on one hand, he can

897
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:43,120
Speaker 1: stop the pain the second he pulls his own hand out,

898
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:47,319
Speaker 1: but he's being held you know, hostage essentially here. You know,

899
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 1: it's like there's a there's an inherent threat that you

900
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 1: will die if you if you pull that hand out. So, yeah,

901
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 1: it's interesting. Right, he's not being physically prevented from removing

902
00:48:57,560 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 1: his hand, but he, I mean, he does have the

903
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 1: not edge. He has cognitive awareness that he that the

904
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 1: consequences will be dire if he does remove his hands,

905
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:09,760
Speaker 1: so he has to internally self regulate. Uh, yeah, that's

906
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 1: a weird I don't know where you would put the

907
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:14,279
Speaker 1: locus of control in that situation. Yeah, I guess that's

908
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:17,360
Speaker 1: that's very much a ben Adjestent trick, right, obscuring the

909
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 1: locusts of control. That's kind of a thing. Yeah, Right,

910
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:23,359
Speaker 1: is it with him or is it with her? It's

911
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:25,840
Speaker 1: kind of hard to say. There and then another input

912
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:28,839
Speaker 1: that hard identifies his attention, so she says, if if

913
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:32,279
Speaker 1: something urgently demands your attention, the brain is usually going

914
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:35,840
Speaker 1: to find a way to at least partially ignore pain

915
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:39,360
Speaker 1: until the important business is taken care of. Again, I

916
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 1: think we all know this from experience, that you can

917
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:44,239
Speaker 1: be really injured, but you're right in the middle of

918
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 1: something incredibly important, and then it's once that task is

919
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:52,400
Speaker 1: done that's suddenly how you realize how much it hurts. Yeah,

920
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 1: And you see plenty of examples of this, like in

921
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:58,359
Speaker 1: the sports world where somebody suffers an injury, but then

922
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 1: they keep going, they press on on um and they

923
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:04,000
Speaker 1: can in in that moment, but in some cases they

924
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:06,919
Speaker 1: end up doing more damage. Uh, and then they feel

925
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:09,360
Speaker 1: the effects later, right, And that might not even be

926
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 1: deliberate like that. Yeah, you might not even be aware

927
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 1: that you're actually hurt until yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One more

928
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:18,360
Speaker 1: example that heart site says, a piece of evidence for

929
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 1: how pain to a large extent is something that happens

930
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:25,720
Speaker 1: within the brain as opposed to something that happens actually

931
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 1: at the side of injury is the idea of phantom

932
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 1: limb pain. So of course this is you know, this

933
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:33,720
Speaker 1: would be pain that is felt in a missing limb

934
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 1: after that limb has been lost or amputated. And the

935
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:39,480
Speaker 1: interesting thing here is that this is pain not only

936
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 1: in the absence of actual ongoing tissue injury, but pain

937
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 1: in the absence of actual tissue Heart rights quote. These

938
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:50,640
Speaker 1: pains were originally thought to be the result of trauma

939
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 1: to the severed nerves of the stump, but attempts to

940
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:58,440
Speaker 1: treat by a second nerve sparing amputation frequently made them worse.

941
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 1: The more extremes injury of severing the sensory nerves at

942
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 1: the spinal cord also proved to be ineffective in most cases.

943
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:09,400
Speaker 1: So Heart argues that whatever the source of pain in

944
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:13,800
Speaker 1: the body, the experience of pain, the subjective experience, largely

945
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:16,759
Speaker 1: happens in the brain. And this is why I think

946
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 1: in some cases it's it's plausible to imagine how the

947
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 1: experience of pain could be regulated up or down by

948
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:27,239
Speaker 1: various types of you know, other mental stimulation, apart from

949
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:31,920
Speaker 1: just stuff happening to your hand inside the box. Now,

950
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 1: another big thing she gets into in the in this

951
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 1: essay is what could actually be happening in the box, Like,

952
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:39,799
Speaker 1: you know, if the if the box is in a

953
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:43,719
Speaker 1: sense causing the pain, what are some plausible technologies, and

954
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:46,319
Speaker 1: I don't think she really lands on anything very solid here.

955
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:49,640
Speaker 1: I mean, and admittedly she talks about how like, uh,

956
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:51,759
Speaker 1: you know, we we we don't really know what could

957
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:55,200
Speaker 1: cause this kind of pain without any actual injury to tissues.

958
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 1: She talks about some rumors of Pentagon interest in different

959
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:03,239
Speaker 1: types of technology is known as active denial systems. These

960
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 1: would be things that supposedly a you know, a police

961
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 1: force or military would use to disperse crowds by inflicting

962
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 1: pain without tissue damage on them through supposed mechanisms like

963
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 1: you know, beams of microwaves or femtosecond lasers. But I

964
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:21,560
Speaker 1: think she rightly points out that in reality these things

965
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 1: would be not only painful, but if you were repeatedly

966
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 1: subjected to them, they probably would actually cause injury. They

967
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:30,799
Speaker 1: would cause burns, right and I and since this, uh,

968
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 1: this has been published, I mean, I think we've seen

969
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:35,799
Speaker 1: more and more evidence for that based on uh, some

970
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 1: of the possible uses of this technology in the world.

971
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:43,839
Speaker 1: It's weird remembering some of the uh, the press these

972
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 1: things were getting back in the day. You know, it

973
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 1: was like, oh, it's so nice that it doesn't cause injury,

974
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:52,279
Speaker 1: but somebody is even if that were true, what they're

975
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:55,600
Speaker 1: saying is I created a pain gun. Yeah yeah, yeah,

976
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 1: Like that's a pain gun that leaves no mark, Like

977
00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 1: that's your your best possible scenario based on some of those, uh,

978
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 1: those those early articles and whatnot. But one idea that

979
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:09,439
Speaker 1: Heart gets into towards the end of her essay, which

980
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:14,239
Speaker 1: I thought was very interesting, is the suggestion that ultimately

981
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 1: the pain caused by the the gom Jabar test is

982
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:21,280
Speaker 1: not actually from the box, Like what if the box

983
00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:25,400
Speaker 1: doesn't do anything, but the pain is from the Reverend

984
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:29,040
Speaker 1: Mother herself. And I think the book actually gives us

985
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:33,279
Speaker 1: reason to suspect this, Like when Paul re encounters the

986
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 1: Reverend Mother again later in the book, he's like, I'm

987
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 1: not going to fall for your tricks this time, suggesting

988
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 1: that Paul believes that it was actually her causing the

989
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:44,160
Speaker 1: pain in his hand and not and not the technology

990
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 1: whatever that was inside the box. And here the idea

991
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 1: would be that, you know, along the lines of the

992
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 1: other stuff we learned about the Benny Jesser, it's that

993
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:56,439
Speaker 1: they have these special powers of hypnosis. They specialize again

994
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 1: in politics, which ultimately is you know, the science of

995
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 1: man copulating people and influencing them. Yeah, I mean, uh,

996
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:05,839
Speaker 1: to a certain extent, you can. So you can look

997
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 1: around in the world around you, and it's like politics

998
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:12,400
Speaker 1: is often about manipulating your perception of pain points. Uh.

999
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:16,239
Speaker 1: So it makes sense that they're they're good at this. Yeah. Yeah,

1000
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:19,880
Speaker 1: even even in the mundane sense. But but so ultimately

1001
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 1: I thought this was kind of interesting because there is

1002
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:25,200
Speaker 1: some real research linking. So, you know, one of the

1003
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 1: things that says that the Bennie Jesser It's due in

1004
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:30,920
Speaker 1: this regard is they have hypnosis techniques. Uh. And so

1005
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:34,280
Speaker 1: there is actually some research in the real world showing

1006
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 1: that hypnosis, at least for people who are susceptible to hypnosis,

1007
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 1: and not everybody is, but for people who are susceptible,

1008
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:46,560
Speaker 1: hypnosis can in many cases be shown to be effective

1009
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:50,759
Speaker 1: at at pain relief in in both chronic and acute conditions.

1010
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:53,040
Speaker 1: If you want to read more about this, there was

1011
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:56,400
Speaker 1: there was a press release summarizing a bunch of existing

1012
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:59,359
Speaker 1: research from the year two thousand four put out by

1013
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 1: the Americans Ecological Association called Hypnosis for the Relief and

1014
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:06,520
Speaker 1: Control of Pain. Uh. Now, I think there would be

1015
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:10,719
Speaker 1: I think the effects we're talking about here, Uh, would

1016
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:13,160
Speaker 1: be much more modest than what is imagined in this

1017
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:16,000
Speaker 1: science fiction scenario, like, you know, making somebody think that

1018
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 1: their hand is literally on fire, burning down to a

1019
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 1: piece of ash. Um. I think this would be more

1020
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:25,200
Speaker 1: along the lines of four people who are susceptible to hypnosis.

1021
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:29,560
Speaker 1: It might have some mitigating effect on sensations of pain,

1022
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 1: but not like a totally mitigating effect. And of course,

1023
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:35,880
Speaker 1: the evil corollary of that would be that if you

1024
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:39,279
Speaker 1: can deaden people's sensitivity to pain through hypnosis, you could

1025
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 1: probably increase it as well, though that would be much

1026
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:45,480
Speaker 1: less ethical to study, at least in context beyond you know,

1027
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:49,080
Speaker 1: the relatively mild forms of pain people experience, would say,

1028
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:52,920
Speaker 1: a hand pludged into a bucket of ice water. I

1029
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:56,279
Speaker 1: have to say that. Um. I think another a bit

1030
00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:58,200
Speaker 1: of evidence that kind of supports the idea that the

1031
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:01,560
Speaker 1: box is not generating the pain is that the box

1032
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:05,000
Speaker 1: doesn't have a proper name. And and Herbert was not

1033
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 1: shy about giving, uh, you know, throwing out names and

1034
00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:10,319
Speaker 1: terminology in in the book. I mean, there's a whole

1035
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:12,719
Speaker 1: dictionary in the back of the novel, uh, you know,

1036
00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:15,920
Speaker 1: letting you know, what these various things are. Uh, the

1037
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:18,520
Speaker 1: needle at at Paul's neck has a name, but the

1038
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:23,200
Speaker 1: box is just referred to informally as the as a box. Right,

1039
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:26,960
Speaker 1: that's a good point. I In fact, I'm I totally agree.

1040
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:30,680
Speaker 1: If the box were the worthy, efficacious agent here, the

1041
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:32,799
Speaker 1: box would have its own name. I feel like I

1042
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:37,320
Speaker 1: know Herbert's brain well enough to know that. All right, Well,

1043
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:39,520
Speaker 1: at this point, we realize it's time for us to

1044
00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:42,719
Speaker 1: take our hands out of the box. Uh, We're we're

1045
00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:44,719
Speaker 1: out of time for this episode of Stuff to Blow

1046
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:46,360
Speaker 1: your mind, But we're gonna be back in the next

1047
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:49,440
Speaker 1: episode with a continuation of this discussion. We're gonna keep

1048
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:52,800
Speaker 1: talking about the benegestrates um and we're gonna talk about

1049
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:55,839
Speaker 1: getting into back into that idea of politics and what

1050
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 1: that means, and I who knows, we may discuss some

1051
00:56:58,239 --> 00:57:01,279
Speaker 1: other topics in the Dune universe is as well. That

1052
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:04,080
Speaker 1: cold open reading, by the way, is of course from

1053
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:08,440
Speaker 1: Frank Herbert's Dune and Annie Reese, co host of Stuff

1054
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 1: Mom Never Told You and Savor, was nice enough to

1055
00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:15,680
Speaker 1: record that for us, So thanks Annie. In the meantime,

1056
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 1: if you'd like to check out other episodes, of Stuff

1057
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:19,160
Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind. You can find them in the

1058
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:22,240
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind podcast feed which is found

1059
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:25,640
Speaker 1: anywhere you get your podcast. Core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays,

1060
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:29,680
Speaker 1: listener Mail on Monday, Artifact on Wednesday, and on Friday's

1061
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:31,440
Speaker 1: We Do Weird How Cinema. That's our time to just

1062
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:34,360
Speaker 1: set aside most of the serious matters and just discuss

1063
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:37,120
Speaker 1: a strange film. Huge thanks as always to our excellent

1064
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Speaker 1: audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to

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Speaker 1: get in touch with us with feedback on this episode

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Speaker 1: or any other, to suggest a topic for the future,

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Speaker 1: just to say hello, you can email us at contact

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Speaker 1: at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to

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Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. For

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Speaker 1: more podcasts for my heart Radio, this is the i

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Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listening to

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Speaker 1: your favorite shows,