1 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:09,880 Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty eight in central Montana, construction workers digging 2 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: with a backo discovered human bones. It was a child 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: buried twelve thousand, nine hundred years ago in the Pleistocene 4 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 1: the Ice Age, which is a time period that has 5 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: remained a mystery for archaeologists until now, because in twenty fourteen, 6 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 1: forty six years after the discovery, a new technology emerged 7 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: that told us who this child was, as it became 8 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: the first and only Clovis era human DNA to be 9 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 1: fully sequenced, giving us insight into the first Americans. In 10 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: this episode, doctor David Meltzer will tell us what we 11 00:00:55,280 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: learned from America's oldest bones. I doubt that you're gonna 12 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: want to miss this one. 13 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 2: We've got enzac in Montana, We've got these individuals in 14 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 2: southeastern Brazil. It's a site called Lego Asanta, and we 15 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 2: can see a tight connection between the two in a 16 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 2: genetic sense. But there's also something lurking in those genomes 17 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 2: at Lego Asanta. Geneticists refer to it as a ghost population. 18 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 2: Does this possibly represent a pre Clovis population that has 19 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 2: simply disappeared and the only record we have of it 20 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 2: was that there was some sort of gene flow or 21 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:38,559 Speaker 2: interaction and why is it only in South America? 22 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 3: And hey, don't forget that. 23 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: On June ninth, there will be a new drop on 24 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,639 Speaker 1: the bear Grease feed to go along with bear Grease. 25 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: What you're listening to now the Bear Grease Render Brent's 26 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: this country life podcast. But now you'll be able to 27 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: listen to Lake Pickles Backwoods Universe. This is our wildlife 28 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: biology podcast and it's really good. We're going to learn 29 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: a lot. But now we're on to the peopling of America. 30 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 1: Roll the intro Reba. My name is Klay Nukem, and 31 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: this is the bear Grease Podcast where we'll explore things 32 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: forgotten but relevant, search for insight and unlikely places, and 33 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: where we'll tell the story of Americans who live their 34 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: lives close to the land. Presented by FHF gear, American 35 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: made purpose built hunting and fishing gear as designed to 36 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: be as rugged as the place. 37 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 4: As we explore, there's a whole sort of new synthesis emerging, 38 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 4: a new view emerging about the peopling of the Americas, 39 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 4: which is making it clear that the traditional interpretations that 40 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 4: we had people get to Alaska, they come through the 41 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 4: ice free corridor. 42 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 2: Boom, it's all done. It's Clovis. It just doesn't work anymore. 43 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 2: And it really hasn't worked for quite some time, right, 44 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 2: because we've had these pre Clovis age sites now for 45 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 2: the better part of fifteen twenty years. But what's happening 46 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 2: now is that we're getting a much better picture, a 47 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 2: more nuanced picture of the process itself and the routes 48 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 2: that they may have taken, and getting back to the 49 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 2: DNA who they were. 50 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: I want to learn about the peopling of America, about 51 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: who were the first people that came here. This is 52 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: a conversation that's been heated since the late eighteen hundreds. 53 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: The technology in the last ten years has changed the conversation. 54 00:03:55,400 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: This is doctor David Meltzer, an archaeologist, author and from 55 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 1: SMU in Dallas, Texas. He's a great communicator. 56 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 2: It used to be that I had lots of questions 57 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 2: as an archaeologist, who are these folks, where did they 58 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 2: come from? Who are they related to? These are not 59 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 2: questions I could answer with archaeological remains. Right, I can 60 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 2: look at a projectile point over here, and I can 61 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 2: look at a projectile point over there, and I can 62 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 2: infer that they're made in a similar fashion, they have 63 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 2: a similar style. Maybe they're related, but I'd never know 64 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 2: that for sure. Right, But with ancient DNA, if I 65 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 2: have skeletal material that we can extract the DNA from 66 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 2: an ancient individual, which we do very carefully and with 67 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:47,359 Speaker 2: considerable respect. There's a lot of ethical issues tied with 68 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 2: ancient DNA, As you might imagine, I can identify ad mixture, ancestry, 69 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 2: who these people are, where they came from, who their 70 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 2: ancestors were in Northeast Asia and the like. And it's 71 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,479 Speaker 2: been it's been an absolute sea change in terms of 72 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 2: our understanding of the peopling process. So we know from 73 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 2: the ancient genetic record, ancient genomic record, that we had 74 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 2: groups that were living in Eastern Asia China today, forty 75 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,359 Speaker 2: thousand years ago, very distinctive genomically. They've been isolated for 76 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 2: some time. When we say distinctive genomically, we're not talking 77 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 2: about them being you know, superior or inferior or anything 78 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 2: like that. What we're actually measuring are genetic traits that 79 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 2: have absolutely no bearing on their fitness. These are parts 80 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 2: of your genome that actually don't do anything. So you 81 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 2: can look at two different populations and there will be 82 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 2: a certain amount of genetic distance between them. So we 83 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,840 Speaker 2: can use we can use DNA as a clock. This 84 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 2: is just wild stuff. Is this would not have been imaginable, 85 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 2: you know, forty years ago. 86 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: How long have we had this technology? 87 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 2: Well, so the first ancient North American genome was twenty fourteen, 88 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 2: just a shade over ten years ago, ten years ago, 89 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 2: ten years ago. Yeah, no, Clay, if we had had 90 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 2: this conversation in twenty ten, it'd be over in about 91 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 2: five minutes because I'd have nothing else to say. 92 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 1: Really. Yeah, it's exciting to live in the times of 93 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: new technology being developed that's solving ancient mysteries. But it 94 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: can also be a little unnerving as it up ends 95 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:28,359 Speaker 1: long held philosophies, and I sometimes wonder if our certainty 96 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: at some point won't be disrupted again in the future 97 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: by even more cryptic technology. But we need to understand 98 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 1: what we are certain about. We need to talk about bones. 99 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: So what discovery of human remains was found that opened 100 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 1: the key to these place to see people? 101 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 2: Well so, in terms of North America, right, the first 102 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 2: ancient genome was the Anzik child. So The Antik child 103 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 2: was discovered in the nineteen sixties, and the story, as 104 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,799 Speaker 2: I understand it, was a rancher was sort of doing 105 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 2: some dirt work on his property with some heavy equipment, 106 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 2: Montana and just outside of Wilson, Montana. In fact, it 107 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 2: was quite close to where we did the bison butchering experiment, 108 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 2: and I kept looking off in that distance thinking I'm close. 109 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: Wow. 110 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 2: And the Anzik child was interred with grave goods some 111 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 2: really distinctive Clovis points, so we know that the Anzick 112 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 2: child was a member of that Clovis cultural group. 113 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: How this came about was that a backo operator was 114 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: digging gravel off a ranch owned by a family named Anzik. 115 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: He hit an unusual layer of dirt and recognized his 116 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: stone point. He got off, and he discovered human bones 117 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: there too. What he'd later learn is that he found 118 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: a formal burial of a one to two year old 119 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: male child, buried with one hundred and twenty stone own 120 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: tools in six non human bone adladal four shafts, and 121 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: some elk antlers dusted with red ochre, and the human 122 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: bones appeared to have red ochre on them as well. 123 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: It makes you wonder if they buried the child with 124 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: the things they thought it would need for the afterlife, 125 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: the things they relied on most stone tools. 126 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 3: But here is what they learned. 127 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 2: Subsequent radiocarbon dating demonstrated that Anazik was around twelve seven 128 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 2: hundred years ago, so late Pleistocene, Late Ice Age, and 129 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 2: when Eski's group did the sequencing, what they discovered, what 130 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 2: we discovered and published in twenty fourteen was that that 131 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:53,239 Speaker 2: individual was part of a population movement into the Americas 132 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 2: that we subsequently identified as Southern Native Americans. Now we 133 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 2: all know that Montana's not in southern portion of the continent. 134 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 2: But what Anzik signified was this was one member of 135 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 2: a population that subsequently would spread throughout the hemisphere. Whereas 136 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 2: the other sort of fork in the road, right, so 137 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 2: one fork goes south, the other stays north. Those are 138 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 2: Northern Native Americans. 139 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: So Anzik all connected anzimatically to this Anzik child. 140 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 2: It all sort of gets channeled back through Anzik or 141 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 2: through others of that population, right, So Anzik is not 142 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 2: sort of the founding population per se, It's a member 143 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:33,199 Speaker 2: of that early population. 144 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: This discovery of this Anzik child was is the only 145 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: pliest scene human remains that we were able to extract 146 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: good enough DNA from to really do the type of 147 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 1: genetic research and discovery that you're talking about. 148 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 2: Fact, that's correct so far, So all. 149 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: This is based upon one really good specimen. 150 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 2: Well, there's actually more to it, okay. So anzik Is 151 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,439 Speaker 2: so far are the oldest genome that we have in 152 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 2: the Americas. However, we have others that come along pretty 153 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 2: soon thereafter, and that help fill in the picture of 154 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 2: the dispersal of these populations throughout the hemisphere. We have 155 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 2: some in southeastern Brazil that date to so anziic is 156 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 2: twelve seven. We've got ones in South America, southeastern Brazil 157 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 2: that are around ten and a half. We've got in 158 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 2: Spirit Cave and Nevada that's about ten to seven. What's 159 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 2: really striking about the genetic data, so again, you know 160 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 2: we've got data from Montana, we've got Nevada, we've got Brazil, 161 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:42,839 Speaker 2: we've got various other places in South America. Is how 162 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 2: closely linked they are and how similar they are at 163 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,079 Speaker 2: the genetic level. What that tells us is that this 164 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 2: is a population that was actually moving pretty fast because 165 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:58,319 Speaker 2: there hasn't been that much change in the time from 166 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 2: Anazik down to southeastern percent. 167 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: Yes, so it wasn't like five thousand years no, no, no, yeah, 168 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: so it's literally people generations, maybe a little more than that, 169 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: but yeah, that's that's the tendency, right, is that it 170 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:14,439 Speaker 1: happened really fast. 171 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 2: We call them quick waivers. They you know, it's just 172 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 2: a fast moving radiation throughout the hemisphere. 173 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 1: Can you imagine moving on foot from Montana to Brazil? 174 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: What was pushing these people? Why did they move? These 175 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 1: are answers we will never know. But maybe one day 176 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 1: they'll have a technology that can read the thoughts and 177 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 1: understand the motivations of people by the DNA. 178 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 3: Extracted from their bones. 179 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: One of the most interesting things about the Anazac child 180 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 1: was recorded in a peer review paper in the Science 181 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: Advances journal, in which an isotope analysis was done on 182 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: the bones and in that they can determine and the 183 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 1: type of protein that the mother ate when she nursed 184 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: the young child, and they found that her diet was 185 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 1: more closely related to a scimitar cat, a carnivore, than 186 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 1: anything else. They use this study to say that these 187 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 1: people were eaten a lot of big mammal meat that 188 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 1: is pretty durned crazy. But our next question is what 189 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: did these bones tell us about where these people came from. 190 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 2: So we've got these two populations, one in Eastern Asia 191 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 2: and one sort of in the region around Lake Baikal, 192 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 2: probably around twenty five twenty three thousand years ago. There's 193 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 2: there's interaction. These groups or members of these groups kind 194 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 2: of bump into one another and then split off as 195 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 2: a sort of combined entity. A combined population. That's the 196 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 2: group that will become ancestor to Native Americans. That's the 197 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 2: group that will make their way across the land bridge. 198 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 2: They'll do it in at least a couple of different pulses. 199 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 2: They'll be the initial one, and those will be the 200 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 2: folks that will make it all the way down into 201 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 2: the lower forty eight, throughout South America and so on. 202 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 2: Then there'll be a slightly later one which will come 203 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 2: into Alaska and stay and not go any further south 204 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 2: and ultimately disappear from the genetic and archaeological record. Okay, wow, 205 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 2: we could never see disappearance in the archaeological record. Before 206 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:37,959 Speaker 2: we could see artifacts, but we had no idea who 207 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 2: made them and whether the people who made them had 208 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 2: descendants among modern groups. All modern people have ancestors, there's 209 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 2: no question about that, right, But not all ancient people 210 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:52,439 Speaker 2: that we see in the ancient DNA record necessarily had descendants, 211 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 2: because some populations disappeared others were replaced, either you know, 212 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 2: locally or regionally or whatever. Humans move and humans been 213 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 2: moving for a long time. Yeah. Yeah, so we can 214 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 2: start to see that kind of thing. We can see 215 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 2: people and populations disappearing. 216 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 1: All from basically finding bits of DNA and. 217 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 2: Well bones in bones exactly right. So when you're doing 218 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 2: ancient DNA on skeletal remains, what you're doing is you're 219 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 2: getting that individual's genome. But it's more than just that individual, 220 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 2: because your genome, my genome. All of these things are 221 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 2: a record of all of our ancestors and the big picture. 222 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: This would be like sorcery to someone one hundred years ago. 223 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 2: Oh, no question. 224 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: Like if you said, I can tell you everything about 225 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: where you're from, who your people were, I mean. 226 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 2: Really, well, it's a scale thing though, right. I mean, 227 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 2: by the way, don't buy any of those things that 228 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 2: the genetic ancestry testing companies are telling you about. We 229 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 2: can tell you exactly who your ancestors. No, there's a 230 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 2: lot of arm weaving with a lot of that stuff. Really, yeah, yeah, yeah, 231 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 2: Now what we're looking at are population level trends, right, Okay, 232 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 2: so we're not able to take your DNA and precisely show. 233 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 1: Who your ancestors were. 234 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 2: That makes sense, But we can look at it as 235 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 2: a population and we do. 236 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: What if you told a human living in the Pleistocene 237 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: that inside their bones were the inscriptions of their ancestors. 238 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 1: I think they tell you that they already knew that. 239 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 1: I find this bizarre and oddly circular. Author Barry Lopez 240 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: and his book Arctic Dreams, raises the question of how 241 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 1: far modern man has actually come. He questions whether all 242 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: we've accomplished is quote a more complicated manipulation of materials, 243 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: more astounding display of his grasp. 244 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 3: Of the physical principles of matter. 245 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 1: We are dazzled by mere styles of expression end of quote. 246 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: I think what he's saying is that modernity has produced 247 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 1: a very technical quote style of expression like sequencing DNA, 248 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 1: where previous humans might have been more spiritually acute and 249 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: expressed life in different ways. 250 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 3: I like thinking about this kind of stuff. 251 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: This is the perfect time to stop for just a 252 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: second and review some basic stuff that will help all 253 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: this make sense. The Clovis era is a term used 254 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 1: to describe a group of people that we're here in 255 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: what is now America roughly thirteen thousand years ago. They 256 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: spanned the continent and made uniquely fluted stone points. That's 257 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: basically the only way that we know who they are 258 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: is because of their technology. For decades, people thought that 259 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: these the Clovis people, crossed the burying land bridge out 260 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: of Asia in the Pleistocene and came through an ice 261 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 1: free corridor between the glaciers into the interior of North America. 262 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:12,120 Speaker 3: But through this. 263 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: Ice core technology that we learned about on episode two 264 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:19,400 Speaker 1: ninety eight of Bear Grease, we're realizing that that ice 265 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 1: free corridor travel path wouldn't be possible. All that information 266 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 1: is going to be valuable in just a little bit. 267 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 2: But I'm gonna throw a wrinkle in here, anazak is Clovis. 268 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:38,239 Speaker 2: We still don't have a pre Clovis genome, so we 269 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 2: don't know whether the earlier population that comes into the Americas, 270 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 2: who are they and how do they relate to Clovis, 271 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 2: and were they part of that quick wave? Will presumably 272 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 2: not because that quick wave is Clovis down to you know, 273 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 2: South America. We're looking. 274 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,679 Speaker 1: So it's just so hard to find human remains that 275 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 1: are over ten thousand years old. I mean, that's what 276 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 1: we're dealing with. Like there were hundreds, clearly hundreds for sure, 277 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: even thousands of people, oh yeah, across the landscape, across 278 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 1: all spread out, all across North America, and we can't 279 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 1: find any of their bones because it's organic matter, it deteriorates. 280 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 1: What we find is what you specialize in, which is 281 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 1: stone points and archaeological like physical evidence that humans were here. 282 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 1: And so just these really unique situations where something happened, 283 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 1: where bones were preserved. It's like literally searching for a 284 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,640 Speaker 1: needle in a thousand haystacks. 285 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 2: It's a challenge. So throughout the hemisphere North and South America, 286 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 2: there's maybe twenty five thirty human remains older than about 287 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 2: eight thousand years. That's a hell of a small population 288 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:04,679 Speaker 2: on which to you know, create any sort of inferential 289 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 2: basis for what the first people look like. Now, the 290 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 2: thing that's really interesting is that at this time in 291 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:17,919 Speaker 2: Europe we've got all sorts of skeletal remains, right, So, yeah, 292 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 2: it's a preservation issue, but obviously, you know, Europe must 293 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:25,400 Speaker 2: have preservation issues there as well. But the difference is 294 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 2: is that their base population of individuals that were living 295 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 2: at that time is so much larger that if you 296 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 2: take one percent of that population and then one percent 297 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 2: of the population that's living in the America's which is 298 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 2: a lot smaller, you know, what are the odds that 299 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 2: you're going to get well preserved human vas Yeah, yeah, 300 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 2: I mean it is the case that throughout most of 301 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 2: eastern North America, bone does not preserve in sediments. 302 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 1: Eastern North America being the eastern deciduous forest where have 303 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:59,119 Speaker 1: a lot of rainfalls at a lot of biological a 304 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 1: lot of soils and all that stuff. In the West, 305 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:03,920 Speaker 1: it would be better. 306 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,439 Speaker 2: Better chances, absolutely absolutely, But you know, preservation depends on 307 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 2: just so many things. You know, was the individual interred, 308 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 2: what was the context of the burial, you know, where 309 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 2: scavenger is able to get to the you know, the 310 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 2: remains or you know, these people were highly mobile. They 311 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 2: did not have cemeteries, you know, at this period of time. 312 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:26,880 Speaker 2: Actually the first cemetery we see is probably around ten 313 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 2: thousand years ago. But as I mentioned earlier, you know, 314 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 2: this is something that is now being done much more 315 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 2: in concert with Native American groups, because these are the 316 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 2: ancestors of these individuals, right. The people today are descended 317 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 2: from these first Americans, and so a lot of the 318 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 2: you know, the first decade or so of ancient DNA work, 319 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 2: and this is true globally, there was a bone rush, right. 320 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 2: Every time you found a bone, somebody wanted to sequence 321 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 2: it and say, you know, because you learn something new 322 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,159 Speaker 2: with each new specimen. We're starting to calm down a 323 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 2: little bit because, you know, we're starting to get the 324 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 2: picture together. We're filling in you know, it's much more 325 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 2: filling in the details rather than creating the whole canvas. 326 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 2: But we're also doing much more collaborative work with the 327 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:19,439 Speaker 2: native groups because you know, they're interested. They might not 328 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 2: necessarily be interested in the same kinds of things we're 329 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 2: interested in, but we find that out right, we do 330 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 2: what we can to sort of respect the descendants, the 331 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:33,920 Speaker 2: descendant communities, and at the same time sort of look 332 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 2: into and try and understand their history. And really, this 333 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 2: is this is human history, right, This is the story 334 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:45,159 Speaker 2: of people essentially coming out of Africa and making their 335 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 2: way around the globe. It's an amazing story, because one 336 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,880 Speaker 2: of the things that's always struck me is the vanity 337 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 2: of Europeans when they started sailing around the globe. You know, 338 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 2: they talked about exploring all these places and going where 339 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 2: no man has gone before, throwing in a star trek 340 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 2: reference here. But the reality is is every place they 341 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 2: landed there was somebody there, right. Yeah, you know, so 342 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 2: hunter gatherer groups, foraging groups leaving Africa managed to pretty 343 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 2: much populate the entire globe, with the exception of Antarctica, 344 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 2: and even then there's some question about whether indigenous groups 345 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 2: got to Antarctica before James Cook approached it in the 346 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 2: late seventeen hundreds. 347 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 1: Humans seem to be really good at dividing up based 348 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:37,120 Speaker 1: upon really the quite small cosmetic and cultural differences within 349 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: our species. But doctor Meltzer makes a good point, this 350 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 1: is the story of mankind. As I learned about archaeology, 351 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 1: what is most astonishing to me is how random the 352 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: data points seemed to be for because I mean, like 353 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 1: we talk about Clovis this well, first of we talk 354 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: about Folsome, this incredible archaeological discovery discovered by George mcjenkin, 355 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: who you know, is just this cowboy get out on 356 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: his ranch and he finds these bones and he gets 357 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 1: old there. And then the Clovis site is basically a 358 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:17,880 Speaker 1: commercial gravel pit where they're digging up stuff and they 359 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: and they find it. The Anzik child is discovered when 360 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: they're doing excavation on just some rancher's random place. And 361 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,400 Speaker 1: I mean it feels like as a species, we would 362 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 1: be like globally like, okay, everyone, we're gonna grid off 363 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 1: the earth and we want every man, woman and child 364 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 1: to go out and excavate the land that they own 365 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 1: and look for evidence of deep human antiquity. Ready, go 366 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 1: report back to us in a month, and we we 367 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,199 Speaker 1: grid off the whole earth and we find everything that 368 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 1: is not even remotely I mean that's a fairy tale, 369 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: like like you know, how much has been destroyed? How 370 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: much is there? Is there an archaeological site under my 371 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: house in Arkansas that would change the world and the 372 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: whole story, But we're never gonna dig it up in 373 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 1: my lifetime because my house is. 374 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 2: There, you know. 375 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, funny fact. What do you think about that? 376 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 2: Well, I think you should move your house and we 377 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 2: can see what's on it. 378 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: I do find stone points in my yard. 379 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 2: Okay, Well there you go, then it really is good. 380 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 1: Reason to move to your house find stone points in 381 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:25,880 Speaker 1: my yard. 382 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 2: So there's there's a bunch of things. First off, you're 383 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 2: absolutely right in that it's complicated. Sites are found randomly. 384 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 2: Sites are found owing to construction erosion, dumb luck. The 385 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 2: person happened to be walking along at the moment that 386 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 2: something eroded out, and if they'd come twenty minutes later, 387 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 2: it would have washed downstream and they'd never know. This 388 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 2: is why we as archaeologists when we're out in the field, 389 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 2: we're talking to ranchers, we're talking to farmers, we're talking 390 00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 2: to people who are following you orders and surveying that 391 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:06,640 Speaker 2: you know, one square mile around their house, and they're 392 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 2: the ones his eyes are on the ground all the time. Okay, 393 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,920 Speaker 2: But at the same time, we're also thinking, and we're 394 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:19,679 Speaker 2: also using techniques like remote sensing, techniques like understanding the 395 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:24,680 Speaker 2: local geology, like understanding erosional and depositional processes. The best example, 396 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:29,360 Speaker 2: wonderful example of this is fellow by name of Reed 397 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 2: Firing at the University of North Texas. Reid has two PhDs, 398 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 2: one an anthropology, one in geology, and reads a pretty 399 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 2: savvy guy, and he was looking at the geology in 400 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,679 Speaker 2: his neighborhood literally, and he got to thinking, you know, 401 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 2: the ice age stuff is now buried under about eight 402 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 2: to nine meters a sediment, and he got it into 403 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 2: his head that well, they're digging a dam and they're 404 00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:01,679 Speaker 2: cutting an overflow sluice way by that dam, and he 405 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,719 Speaker 2: just decided, well, that's a really good opportunity to go 406 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 2: look eight meters below the surface. He starts walking down 407 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 2: that contact between the end of the place to scene 408 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,959 Speaker 2: and the Cretaceous. Right, So you've got twelve thousand year 409 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 2: old sediments sitting on top of sixty million year old rock, 410 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 2: and what does he discover? The Clovis point, right, So 411 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 2: just like walking around yeah, yeah, yeah. So when you 412 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,159 Speaker 2: take that sort of knowledge and apply it, it's not 413 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 2: a completely random thing. But you know, the prepared mind 414 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 2: will find things, and Reed certainly was. And that's it's 415 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 2: so called. It's the Aubry site. So it's one of 416 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 2: the oldest Clovi sites we have while and it was 417 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 2: discovered because he was savvy enough to know where to look. 418 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 1: I bet those damn builders wish he hadn't found. 419 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,399 Speaker 2: It did not have anything, it did not slow the 420 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 2: dam It all worked out just fine for all concern. 421 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 1: The bones have answered the question of where Clovis people 422 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 1: came from. But now I want to try to understand 423 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,439 Speaker 1: how they got here. Meltzer is going to bring up 424 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: something called the Kelp Highway, which is the theory that 425 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,879 Speaker 1: after crossing the Burying land bridge, humans moved down the coast, 426 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: utilizing the rich ecosystems provided by Kelp. 427 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 2: Well, okay, so we've now established that people came down 428 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 2: the coast, and the question is, well, what resources were 429 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 2: they using? There is an interesting theory about the so 430 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:38,160 Speaker 2: called Kelp Highway that would have provided a rich resource 431 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 2: base for groups. Certainly there's a lot of help out 432 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 2: there today. The obvious question is what did it look 433 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,679 Speaker 2: like at the Pleisto scene sixteen thousand years ago when 434 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 2: people were coming down that coast. I don't know. I 435 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 2: don't know that any of us know, because you know, 436 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 2: these are sea plants where we haven't got a really 437 00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 2: good geological record of the history of Kelp along the coat. 438 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 1: You can't do the core. 439 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 2: Well, you know what we have we again this. 440 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: Is I thought maybe I gave him a new idea. Well, 441 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 1: I was going to be like call it the clay 442 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: Nucombe core because I told you to get a core 443 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: of the Kelp. 444 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 2: Well, the problem is, you know what the Pacific Northwest 445 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 2: coast looks like, right, it's constantly getting pounded. Uh, the 446 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 2: odds are against you. I would tell you, by the way, 447 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 2: that the fellow who found the Titanic years ago, one 448 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 2: of his people contacted me and they said, you know, 449 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 2: he was thinking, now that he's found the Titanic, that 450 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 2: maybe he would do some work on the Bearing Land 451 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 2: Bridge and look for sites and would be interested. And 452 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 2: I said, sure, nothing everything side, Yeah, nothing, nothing happened. 453 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 2: I told him that, you know, the odds were actually 454 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 2: not very. 455 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: Good, just because the ocean would have just yeah yeah, 456 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 1: well volatile down there. 457 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 2: You can do bathometric studies, right, you can. You can 458 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 2: map the seafloor and you can see valleys, you can 459 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 2: see river drainages in the like. But are you going 460 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 2: to find an archaeological site. I mean it's hard enough 461 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 2: to find stuff on land and doing it in sixty 462 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 2: meters of water icy water. Yeah. So yeah, that one 463 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 2: never came to pass. It would have been kind of 464 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 2: fun though. Wow. Yeah. 465 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 1: So okay, so you're telling me about what we know 466 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 1: about the water route. 467 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, don't think of it as a water route, 468 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 2: think of it as a coastal route. Okay. I suspect 469 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 2: they were taking small animals and maybe even plant material 470 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 2: out of tide pools. They were probably hunting animals that 471 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 2: would have been in that same ribbon of dry land 472 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 2: along the ice sheet. And before you get into the water, 473 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 2: large mammal hunting, large sea mammal hunting is a much 474 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 2: later thing and it usually requires boats, and we don't 475 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 2: Now we don't have any evidence of boats. Does that 476 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 2: mean they didn't have boats? No? I mean we just 477 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 2: don't have any boats. Yeah, yeah, or exactly. I mean, 478 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 2: what are the odds that you would actually find something 479 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 2: like that? 480 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,719 Speaker 1: Now, so there are archaeological sites along that coast, no 481 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 1: kind of. 482 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 2: No, No, that's that's another challenge. 483 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 1: So we just have So what are the data points, 484 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 1: like like Cooper's Ferry is inland, yep, off of the 485 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: it's off the Snake the Snake River, Like, we'll think 486 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: about it. 487 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 2: Think about it. You're coming down the coast, right, so 488 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 2: you've got this ribbon of land. You can make your 489 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 2: way down the coast and once you get south of 490 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 2: that ice sheet. Now mind you that ice sheet comes 491 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 2: into Seattle really late. You had ice in Seattle as 492 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 2: recently as fourteen and a half fifteen thousand years ago 493 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 2: before it starts to retreat. But once you get south 494 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 2: of that ice sheet, you get to the Columbia, make 495 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 2: a left turn that takes you into the interior. Right, 496 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 2: and then right there you go, and you're gonna find 497 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 2: your way to a place like Cooper Ferry. So you 498 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 2: could either continue south, you could make a left turn, 499 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 2: go into the interior, go a little further south, make 500 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 2: another left turn. Yeah. So once once you get south 501 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 2: of the ice it's open season, it's open plans. 502 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: And so the data points then become like we have 503 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 1: this Anzik child in Montana that we can genetically trace. 504 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 2: To populations in Northeast Asia. 505 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: And we know they didn't come down the ice free 506 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 1: corridor because there was a it was closed up until it. 507 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 2: Was not biologically viable until after they got here. 508 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: And so I mean the only thing left is they 509 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: either flew airplanes or they came down the. 510 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 2: Coast exactly right. 511 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 1: And so there's no paleolithic archaeological sites like on the 512 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 1: coast of Alaska and British Columbia. 513 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 2: It would be lovely if there were that we could 514 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 2: sort of, you know, if they left behind like Hansel 515 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 2: and Gretel, right, a trail of breadcrumbs, a trail of 516 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 2: archaeological sites. There is one site that based around thirteen 517 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 2: that's off the coast of British Columbia, where they actually 518 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 2: have some ancient footprints literally footprints coming into this continent. 519 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 2: But that's one of the only ones that's and that's 520 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 2: still not old enough, right, because if people are at 521 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 2: Cooper's Ferry at fifteen and a half, then a site 522 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 2: this thirteen thousand is, yeah, that's that's long after. 523 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: Wow. It's currently believed that the first people arriving in 524 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 1: what is now the Lower forty eight got here using 525 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: a coastal route, and sites like Cooper's Ferry, which is 526 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 1: along the Salmon River near Cottonwood, Idaho, force us to 527 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: believe in the water route. At Cooper's Ferry, they've found 528 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: stone points and burned animal bones that radio carbon date 529 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 1: back to fifteen thousand, five hundred years ago. This is 530 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: two thousand years before Clovis, thousands of years before the 531 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 1: ice free corridor was biologically viable for a thirteen hundred 532 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: mile journey. Paleo's sites are just hard to come by, 533 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: so it's difficult to piece it all together. 534 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, think about this in terms of numbers. 535 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 2: We are not talking about a lot of people. Not 536 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 2: only is there not a lot of people in absolute terms, 537 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 2: in terms of density, You've got relatively few people on 538 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 2: a vast continent and they're not and they're highly mobile, 539 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 2: they're moving all the time. Archaeological sites accumulate when people 540 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 2: slow down and stop, and especially if you've got a 541 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 2: large number of people slowing down and stopping. 542 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 1: And these people weren't making impact. I mean, like today, 543 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 1: like you think about the impact that a human would 544 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: leave on the planet in a week's time period. I'm 545 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 1: producing trash, controducing tire tracks and mud when I drive 546 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 1: my truck to where I hunt. And these people didn't 547 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: have plastics, they didn't have metal. 548 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 2: Oh god, no, yeah. 549 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 1: Every everything they had was organic matter that would rot 550 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 1: in a period of years at most. So it just 551 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,719 Speaker 1: took these like really special circumstances for something to be preserved. 552 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 1: It's just astonishing to me how how this like these 553 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 1: little breadcrumbs that we have, But also how much we 554 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: know off these small data points, right. 555 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 2: No, we we specialize in getting large amounts of information 556 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 2: from tiny amounts of data. Yeah, because we have to. 557 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: It's astonishing to me to think about, like who these 558 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 1: people would have really been. They were humans, just like 559 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 1: a same mental capacity. They could have learned to fly 560 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:54,560 Speaker 1: an airplane, they could have learned complex math. We just 561 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,240 Speaker 1: have to assume that they wouldn't have had any sense 562 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 1: of their uniqueness in the world. I mean in terms 563 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: of like we now look back from this place in 564 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 1: twenty twenty five, where we have this incredible technology and 565 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 1: we have these like what we perceive as modern lives 566 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 1: right on the cutting edge of time. Well, they were 567 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 1: on the cutting edge of time fifteen thousand years ago. 568 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 1: It was it's hard for me to think about a 569 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,759 Speaker 1: place to sene man waking up, getting the fire going, 570 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 1: and just thinking, man, it's just another Tuesday, and I 571 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:31,759 Speaker 1: gotta figure out what we're gonna eat, and I gotta 572 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,800 Speaker 1: go out and you know, kill a deer, kill a mammoth, 573 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,799 Speaker 1: or I've got a We're gonna head south today and 574 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 1: maybe we'll run into some other group of people. I mean, 575 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 1: they didn't know they were They just thought this is 576 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:44,759 Speaker 1: what human life was. 577 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 2: That's exactly right. 578 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:50,280 Speaker 1: And then now fifteen thousand years later, we have, because 579 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,360 Speaker 1: of technology, because of history, because of written languages, because 580 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 1: of communication, at this high level that we have, we're 581 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 1: able to see this huge slice of the pie and go, 582 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,760 Speaker 1: holy smokes, those guys were just so unique. 583 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,919 Speaker 2: And yes, I think you're absolutely right. The only point 584 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 2: that I would add is that I suspect at some level, 585 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 2: at some degree, they must have realized looking around that 586 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 2: there's not a lot of people here, right, there's wouldn't. 587 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 1: That have been normal to them? 588 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,560 Speaker 2: Exactly right, exactly right. But think about it in terms 589 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 2: of the first people coming into the Americas, where you know, 590 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 2: they'd seen people in Siberia, they'd interacted with folks along 591 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:35,360 Speaker 2: the way, and suddenly they realize, you know, it's been months, 592 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,360 Speaker 2: it's been a really long time since we've seen smoke 593 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,600 Speaker 2: on the horizon, or a freshly killed animal, or bumped 594 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:42,359 Speaker 2: into somebody else. 595 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 1: The place is uninhabited. Exactly They would have recognized. 596 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 2: It, right, They may have recognized it or just thought, 597 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 2: you know, maybe I just need to keep moving and 598 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:52,279 Speaker 2: I'm going to find somebody else. 599 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 1: Right, What if they thought that was a positive or negative. 600 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 2: Well, now that's if you're looking at your kids and 601 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 2: they're getting to be a marriageable la you're thinking, boy, 602 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 2: I hope we run into somebody really quick. Yeah, And 603 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 2: that's actually one of the other things that's come out 604 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 2: of the genetic record is that there's no evidence whatsoever 605 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:14,239 Speaker 2: of incest or I don't know if you necessarily want 606 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,759 Speaker 2: to talk about that. Sure, but with Neanderthals toward the 607 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 2: end of their their string by you know, fifty thousand 608 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 2: years ago, there was a lot of inbreeding really with 609 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 2: modern human population, and they basically were running out of 610 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 2: mates for their kids. With modern humans, you do not 611 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 2: see that. So these folks, again, this goes back to 612 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 2: if you're on an empty landscape, it pays to recognize 613 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:41,640 Speaker 2: strangers as friends. 614 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 1: Wow, that's fascinating. It's mind boggling to think of so 615 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: few humans on such a huge continent, especially as planet 616 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:57,279 Speaker 1: Earth now has over eight billion people. It's tempting to 617 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,160 Speaker 1: think that it would be nice to go back, but 618 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,400 Speaker 1: I'm sure all those people from the Pleistocene would like 619 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:07,360 Speaker 1: to be in our shoes, with excess food, air conditioning, 620 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:12,440 Speaker 1: and hospitals. This next section reveals one of the biggest 621 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:16,960 Speaker 1: mysteries of the Americas. Here, doctor Meltzer is going to 622 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:21,239 Speaker 1: introduce us to what they refer to as the ghost population. 623 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 2: So one of the really interesting things, as we've talked about, 624 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,719 Speaker 2: we've got Anzac in Montana, we've got these individuals in 625 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,400 Speaker 2: southeastern Brazil. It's a site called Lego Asanta, and we 626 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,719 Speaker 2: can see a tight connection between the two in a 627 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 2: genetic sense, but there's also something lurking in those genomes 628 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 2: at Lego Asanta a well. Geneticists refer to it as 629 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 2: a ghost population, and by that what we mean is 630 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 2: that we've got segments of DNA that are clearly unrelated 631 00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,319 Speaker 2: to everything else that are part of the genome of 632 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:05,520 Speaker 2: those individuals, and it's a signal that bears a resemblance 633 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:12,760 Speaker 2: to austral Asian populations, so Australia, New Guinea, that region 634 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,720 Speaker 2: of the world. So we've got these chunks, these odd 635 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:21,920 Speaker 2: chunks of DNA in these populations in southeastern Brazil that 636 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,400 Speaker 2: are part of the genome. But what's really puzzling about 637 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 2: this stuff is that we don't see that austral Asian 638 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:35,360 Speaker 2: signal in any of the North American individuals that we've sequenced. 639 00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:38,440 Speaker 2: We don't see it in any of the Alaskan individuals 640 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,400 Speaker 2: that we've sequenced. We don't see them in the Northeast 641 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:48,920 Speaker 2: Asian ones. So clearly there's ancestral genetic components and segments 642 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,319 Speaker 2: that are coming into the Americas, and we don't know 643 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 2: does this possibly represent a pre Clovis population that has 644 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 2: simply disappeared? And the only record we have of it 645 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,200 Speaker 2: was that there was some sort of gene flow or interaction. 646 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,400 Speaker 2: And why is it only in South America? If it 647 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 2: came across the land bridge and into North America, you 648 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,399 Speaker 2: would expect to see this signal all the way down 649 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,960 Speaker 2: into the continent. R So we haven't quite figured out that. 650 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 1: Do they not think that it's it potentially came from 651 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:22,840 Speaker 1: the South into South America? 652 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 2: Not really, And let me tell you why we don't 653 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:30,040 Speaker 2: think that. And again with the caveat that with archaeology, 654 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,880 Speaker 2: you know, we're never at one hundred percent sure, but 655 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:35,960 Speaker 2: I'm going to say ninety nine point ninety nine on 656 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:39,080 Speaker 2: this one. We know when people start moving out across 657 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,200 Speaker 2: the Pacific, and we do know in fact that groups 658 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,640 Speaker 2: that moved out across the Pacific ultimately will touch down 659 00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 2: in coastal South America. They won't really spend much time there, right, 660 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:52,040 Speaker 2: But that's only about three thousand years ago, and that's 661 00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:57,000 Speaker 2: only after folks developed the ocean going technology this, you know, 662 00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,759 Speaker 2: the big outrigger canoes and that sort of thing to 663 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:03,239 Speaker 2: do that in the place to scene, No, I think 664 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:04,880 Speaker 2: it's pretty much again. 665 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,719 Speaker 1: So just to clarify, there's there's a genetic signal in 666 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:14,880 Speaker 1: South America that's not in North America. That it's from Australia. 667 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,440 Speaker 2: In that region, and that and that, and that's in 668 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:19,239 Speaker 2: South America and no place else. 669 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 1: So what what do you think? This complete mystery? 670 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,120 Speaker 2: It's absolutely I mean, these are the things that make 671 00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:29,640 Speaker 2: this fun. Right said, there's still so many questions to answer, 672 00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:30,520 Speaker 2: and that's a big one. 673 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 1: The ghost population of South America is some wild stuff. 674 00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:40,040 Speaker 1: But it's worth noting that not all of the scientific 675 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:44,439 Speaker 1: community is an agreement that it's real. But that's how 676 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:48,239 Speaker 1: all this stuff works. Usually takes a generation or two 677 00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:52,360 Speaker 1: to sort it all out. Potentially one day we'll understand 678 00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:57,480 Speaker 1: even more as new information and technology unfolds, and this 679 00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:03,000 Speaker 1: exact thing uncertainty spurs My last question to doctor Meltzer, 680 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:10,600 Speaker 1: with your career how do you manage the uncertainty because 681 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:12,919 Speaker 1: you have to be starting like there's I'm sure you've 682 00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:16,000 Speaker 1: done stuff in your career where you said like, hey, 683 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:18,480 Speaker 1: this is the best information we have and here's what 684 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:22,040 Speaker 1: we believe, and then later that was proven wrong. 685 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's the fun of it, right. I Mean, 686 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:32,080 Speaker 2: our hypotheses, our theories, our inferences are not like our children. 687 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:37,680 Speaker 2: We're more than happy to discover something new that shows 688 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,400 Speaker 2: us oh okay, now we have a much better idea. 689 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:43,560 Speaker 2: What I thought before was wrong. I mean, you don't 690 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:45,919 Speaker 2: want it to happen too often, sure, sure, right, yeah, 691 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:51,040 Speaker 2: but it's really it's refreshing in a way because you're 692 00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:55,600 Speaker 2: constantly learning stuff and by virtue of the sort of 693 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,640 Speaker 2: dearth of data. I mean, we have a tremendous amount 694 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,520 Speaker 2: of data. Yeah, but in the grand scheme of things, 695 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:03,919 Speaker 2: do we want more? Do we wish we had more? Absolutely? 696 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,520 Speaker 1: But there there definitely are are things that you can 697 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:11,560 Speaker 1: say with certainty that will never be pretty much reversed. 698 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:13,920 Speaker 1: I mean, like I'm thinking, like if we'd had this 699 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:18,439 Speaker 1: conversation in the year nineteen hundred, we would this would 700 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,640 Speaker 1: be an entirely different conversation. If we had this conversation 701 00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:25,120 Speaker 1: in the nineteen forties. Oh yeah, it would be entirely different. 702 00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:27,239 Speaker 1: We'd say, oh man, we got Clovis and fulsome and 703 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:30,520 Speaker 1: people have been here for thirteen thousand years. We also, 704 00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:34,640 Speaker 1: through the you know, the latter part of the nineteen hundreds, 705 00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,640 Speaker 1: would have thought that people came across the Burying land 706 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 1: Bridge through the Ice Free Corridor and that's how they 707 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:44,000 Speaker 1: got here. And then now we're saying, well, it's a 708 00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:48,759 Speaker 1: it's a coastal route. Yeah, Like, how twenty years from 709 00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:50,080 Speaker 1: now will we still be saying that. 710 00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:52,080 Speaker 2: Okay, I see we are route Yeah, yeah, yeah, I 711 00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,440 Speaker 2: think there are anchor points that we can use. I 712 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:56,319 Speaker 2: don't think the ice Free Corridor is going to open 713 00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:57,520 Speaker 2: any earlier than we thought. 714 00:43:58,000 --> 00:43:59,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's like pretty that's like I saw. 715 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,400 Speaker 2: I'm confident on that one. So let's have this conversation 716 00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:04,200 Speaker 2: in twenty years and find out if I was right 717 00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:06,040 Speaker 2: or not. Yeah, but I think that's good. 718 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:07,959 Speaker 1: We're going to book this as a calendar. 719 00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:11,400 Speaker 2: Of let's anchor that one right there. That's good. Was 720 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:15,680 Speaker 2: Clovis dating to you know, around thirteen thousand plus minus. Yeah, 721 00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:19,080 Speaker 2: that's good. Have we found the earliest people in the Americas. No, 722 00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:22,480 Speaker 2: I don't think. So is it going to go much 723 00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:26,560 Speaker 2: before around fifty thousand years ago? I also don't think so. 724 00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:29,440 Speaker 2: Here's what we're doing, This is this is really what 725 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:33,320 Speaker 2: science is all about. We are worrying away our ignorance. 726 00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:38,280 Speaker 2: So I can say, just having this conversation here today, 727 00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,960 Speaker 2: that I think the first people came into the Americas 728 00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:48,520 Speaker 2: sometime between about sixteen and say twenty five thousand years ago. Okay, 729 00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:51,600 Speaker 2: Do I think people could have come here one hundred 730 00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,880 Speaker 2: thousand years ago? No? I don't, not at all, just 731 00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:58,040 Speaker 2: because of the evidence that we have today suggests that's 732 00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,160 Speaker 2: not the case. I don't even think they were or 733 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:03,400 Speaker 2: as early as fifty or forty or maybe even thirty. 734 00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:07,000 Speaker 2: But that's just based on the evidence that we have today. 735 00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:10,239 Speaker 2: Am I willing to accept the possibility that I could 736 00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:14,000 Speaker 2: be wrong, Absolutely, because as you know, it's sort of 737 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:15,760 Speaker 2: alluded to the fact that I've been in this business 738 00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,480 Speaker 2: for a while, and it's true, I've seen a lot 739 00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:21,680 Speaker 2: of changes in the time that I've been in this business, 740 00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:23,800 Speaker 2: you know. I mean, we all used to believe that 741 00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,960 Speaker 2: it was Clovis first, and then it wasn't. We used 742 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:28,759 Speaker 2: to believe the ice free quarter was the way in 743 00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:33,040 Speaker 2: and that it wasn't. So yeah, I've seen those changes. Yeah, 744 00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:37,480 Speaker 2: and I've also you know, and it's it's humbling in 745 00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:42,640 Speaker 2: the sense that it makes you realize, do not be 746 00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:47,880 Speaker 2: too confident about what you know, because with archaeology there's 747 00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:50,799 Speaker 2: always the potential for surprises. 748 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:55,960 Speaker 3: We're worrying away our ignorance. 749 00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:00,719 Speaker 1: Attempting to answer these questions of the deep andiquity of 750 00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:04,960 Speaker 1: man in North America is a grand intellectual feed and 751 00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:07,879 Speaker 1: I think it's important and it adds weight to our 752 00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:12,320 Speaker 1: modern human story of driving on paved roads and living 753 00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:16,480 Speaker 1: in brick, air conditioned homes. I can't imagine living in 754 00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:22,080 Speaker 1: modern times and having little curiosity about where people came from. 755 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:26,640 Speaker 1: To me, this curiosity is respect, and in this case, 756 00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:30,360 Speaker 1: it's respect for these people that lived here, but also 757 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:33,080 Speaker 1: respect for the land itself. 758 00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:39,600 Speaker 3: This is its story. 759 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,440 Speaker 1: I can't thank you enough for listening to Bear Grease 760 00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:47,640 Speaker 1: Brince this country life podcast, and I know that you're 761 00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:54,040 Speaker 1: gonna enjoy Lake's Backwoods University. Please share our podcast feed 762 00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:58,440 Speaker 1: with a friend this week and keep the wild places wild, 763 00:46:58,680 --> 00:46:59,920 Speaker 1: because that's where the bears live. 764 00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:07,520 Speaker 2: Fe