WEBVTT - A Landmark Ruling in Ecuador

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to Damages. I'm Amy Westervelt. Last episode, we

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<v Speaker 1>heard about Ecuador's constitutional amendment to include rights of nature

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<v Speaker 1>in a recent case that pitted the cloud forest of

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<v Speaker 1>Losedros against a mining company and the government officials that

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<v Speaker 1>permitted mining in that forest. La Cortero's one, and today

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to get into a lot more detail about

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<v Speaker 1>what that ruling means and why it was so important,

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<v Speaker 1>not just an Ecuador but around the world. Joining me

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<v Speaker 1>for that discussion today are Melissa Trautman and Joshua Purbanik,

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<v Speaker 1>the co founders of Public Herald, an independent investigative journalism organization.

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<v Speaker 1>Melissa's based in Pennsylvania, Josh is in Ohio, and for

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<v Speaker 1>years they uncovered lots of dirty secrets about fracking in

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<v Speaker 1>those states. That work actually led them to rights of nature.

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<v Speaker 1>There's been a lot of activity to incorporate rights of

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<v Speaker 1>nature in both Ohio and Pennsylvania, mostly as a response

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<v Speaker 1>to industrial pollution of various kinds. Once they started digging

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<v Speaker 1>into the issue, Melissa and josh were hooked, and they

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<v Speaker 1>eventually made a documentary called Invisible Hand that came out

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<v Speaker 1>in twenty twenty and is an excellent way into the

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<v Speaker 1>topic for anyone who is interested in learning more about it.

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<v Speaker 1>I caught up with them shortly after the Lausdroes ruling

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<v Speaker 1>came out to get their take on it. That conversation's

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<v Speaker 1>coming up right after this quick break. I want to

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<v Speaker 1>talk about the Lowis Sedros case and both of your

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<v Speaker 1>responses to that, and especially the fact that it kind

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<v Speaker 1>of well of getting paired with this decision to reaffirm

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<v Speaker 1>indigenous communities right to consultation and involvement in decision making

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<v Speaker 1>around extraction. So, yeah, what were you anticipating and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>what did you think of the ruling?

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't have any anticipations about what the ruling would be,

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<v Speaker 2>because it was really unclear from everybody we talked to

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<v Speaker 2>what was going to happen with this case. The part

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<v Speaker 2>that made me most excited was that there was so

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<v Speaker 2>much involvement from the international community and attention to the case,

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<v Speaker 2>which brought a lot more pressure on the courts and

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<v Speaker 2>on the discussion in general to see something become of that.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's what happened. We saw something that was absolutely

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<v Speaker 2>radical for the environmental movement overall and was literally a

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<v Speaker 2>turning point. I think where it'll go down as a

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<v Speaker 2>extremely historical moment that could change the mindset of the

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<v Speaker 2>environmental movement, which hasn't been able to be changed up

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<v Speaker 2>until then. And by that I mean the rights of

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<v Speaker 2>Nature has been written off as a fringe movement that

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't successful and wasn't getting the kind of notoriety that

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<v Speaker 2>these environmental organizations needed in order for them to get

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<v Speaker 2>behind it and use their resources on behalf of rights

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<v Speaker 2>of nature. But with losegdros and twenty five thousand acres

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<v Speaker 2>of forest being protected and it being done from a

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<v Speaker 2>constitutional court being one of the highest rulings of law

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<v Speaker 2>that you can get, that has significantly changed the perspective

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<v Speaker 2>from what I can see of environmental organizations and people

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<v Speaker 2>in general who are dealing with environmental problems. On top

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<v Speaker 2>of that, you have reinstated respect and introduction to Indigenous

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<v Speaker 2>knowledge and Indigenous ways of thinking for these issues, and

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<v Speaker 2>that has been extremely important because it's allowing folks to

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<v Speaker 2>take a breath and take a step back from their

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<v Speaker 2>very siloed approach to this thing and bring in different

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<v Speaker 2>perspectives to the battles that they're facing and ask these

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<v Speaker 2>kinds of questions from the indigenous community in order, I think,

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<v Speaker 2>to get a better understanding of how they should approach

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<v Speaker 2>this issue from that mindset, and that has been something

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<v Speaker 2>we've neglected for so long now in the environmental movement,

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<v Speaker 2>and to see it come back into play through rights

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<v Speaker 2>of nature is I think, a way to show how

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<v Speaker 2>powerful this concept is. That Losadra's cases has been the

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<v Speaker 2>precipice for all of that. Now I have my own

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<v Speaker 2>personal response to it, which is more philosophical cool because

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<v Speaker 2>I've always seen rights of nature as sort of an

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<v Speaker 2>inevitable idea that has spawned out of capitalism and out

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<v Speaker 2>of democracy, and I think that moving forward with the

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<v Speaker 2>world and civilization, when you're looking at a ruling like Losadro's,

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<v Speaker 2>you're not necessarily looking at democracy. Democracy itself is a

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<v Speaker 2>very anthropocentric institution, and it's always served the interest of

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<v Speaker 2>humans overall. And I think that a government that changes,

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<v Speaker 2>a government that begins to serve the interest of nature

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<v Speaker 2>and puts nature at the center of decision making is

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<v Speaker 2>something that I've been calling an autocracy, just to give

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<v Speaker 2>it a name. And I think that this is some

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<v Speaker 2>of the first versions of an autocracy that we're seeing,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm hoping that other folks are recognizing that transformation,

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<v Speaker 2>that academics are also recognizing that, and that they'll get

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<v Speaker 2>behind this idea of evolving democracy from what it's been

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<v Speaker 2>into something that does have reciprocity with nature, something that

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<v Speaker 2>does have the definitions of a substance and sustenance with nature,

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<v Speaker 2>and that that guild that we've lost can be rebuilt.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think that that conversation has only become more

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<v Speaker 2>tangible because of the the Los Agro's case, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>look what it's done for. Chile is now talking about,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, bringing it into their country's constitution as well,

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<v Speaker 2>which would make I think that would make five countries

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<v Speaker 2>in the world who have now enshrined rights of nature

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<v Speaker 2>into their constitution.

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<v Speaker 3>And that's what Blivia, Costa Rica, Panama right already, and then.

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<v Speaker 2>They have I think it doesn't serve the entire country,

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<v Speaker 2>but it serves portions of the country for it to

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<v Speaker 2>defend itself through rights of nature. But I mean, I

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<v Speaker 2>think the envirable movement's been working on this stuff for

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<v Speaker 2>what like eighty years, ninety years or something, and nothing

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<v Speaker 2>has been for me, anywhere near as powerful as what

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<v Speaker 2>we saw with the Ecuador's case.

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<v Speaker 1>It struck me as an example of rights of nature

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<v Speaker 1>being sort of uniquely well positioned to deal with this

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<v Speaker 1>problem that's coming up where people are like getting off

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<v Speaker 1>of fossil fuels but then you know, just replacing them

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<v Speaker 1>with lithium and you know whatever else. This is like,

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<v Speaker 1>if we evaluate these these decisions through rights of nature lens,

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<v Speaker 1>you'd be less likely to do something versus evaluating it

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<v Speaker 1>through basically a capitalism lens, where you know, people are

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<v Speaker 1>just in this desperate rush to replace one energy source

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<v Speaker 1>with another and not change anything else, or just.

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<v Speaker 2>The regulatory lens, right, I mean, if you evaluate through that,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean we're going to practically nowhere, we're basically making

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<v Speaker 2>concessions in order for parts of nature to be sacrificed

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<v Speaker 2>and annihilated so that we can have some profit at

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<v Speaker 2>the end. You know. But this is like so far

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<v Speaker 2>from from that, and it is amazing and wonderful that

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<v Speaker 2>it happened.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Melissa, what were you going to say?

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<v Speaker 4>Like you said, rights of nature is particularly well suited

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<v Speaker 4>to lead us through the transition, right, and whether you're

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<v Speaker 4>talking about a transition from fossil fuels to renewable energies,

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<v Speaker 4>we're just talking about a transition to a more just world.

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<v Speaker 4>In general, Rights of Nature is a great way to

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<v Speaker 4>guide us into that new world. And it is a

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<v Speaker 4>totally new world. I mean, let's be real, a world

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<v Speaker 4>where decisions were made based on the fundamental principles of

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<v Speaker 4>the universe, of the physical universe, interconnectedness, reciprocity, diversity, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>like the laws of nature. By acknowledging those and keeping

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<v Speaker 4>those central to all of our decision making processes automatically

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<v Speaker 4>means to a certain degree that we are just making

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<v Speaker 4>more sustainable decisions. And also the rights of nature helps

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<v Speaker 4>with transitioning to a more equitable and just world, just

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<v Speaker 4>on a social level, because everything, every all living beings

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<v Speaker 4>are included in the rights of nature equally. You know,

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<v Speaker 4>the rights of nature is not giving more rights to

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<v Speaker 4>certain species and not others, not in principle anyway, although

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<v Speaker 4>there are interesting conflicts that will come up in the

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<v Speaker 4>future between different species. You will have to answer questions

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<v Speaker 4>like is the salmon more valuable than the algae eating

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<v Speaker 4>darters that thrive in that same ecosystem. You know, if

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<v Speaker 4>one I think it was Christopher Stone you mentioned in

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<v Speaker 4>one of your previous podcasts about this where he brought

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<v Speaker 4>this up where like one species could thrive in a

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<v Speaker 4>cold water fishery and another species could thrive when the

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<v Speaker 4>water warms a little bit, So there is conflict in nature.

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<v Speaker 3>But back to Los Sidros.

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<v Speaker 4>I think that future generations are going to look back

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<v Speaker 4>on this point in human history and say that's when

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<v Speaker 4>the shift happened. I really believe that, and they're going

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<v Speaker 4>to point to things like the Los Adro's case and

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<v Speaker 4>rights of nature in general, because these cases and the

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<v Speaker 4>Rights of Nature movement not just the legal strategy, but

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<v Speaker 4>also the cultural shift, the paradigm shift in how we

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<v Speaker 4>think and how we see and how we feel and

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<v Speaker 4>what we do. That shift is so fundamental, so fundamentally

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<v Speaker 4>different from the massive, exponentially industrial and exploitative and oppressive

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<v Speaker 4>period and human history that got us here in this

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<v Speaker 4>massive crisis no living beings had to ever grapple with

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<v Speaker 4>before in the history of the planet, which is how old.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean. We are shifting from a culture that is

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<v Speaker 4>separated itself from the non human world, has subjugated nature

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<v Speaker 4>to property, women to property, slaves to property. All of

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<v Speaker 4>that is shifting, and it's being birthed through this cultural

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<v Speaker 4>shift that the rights of nature movement is a part

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<v Speaker 4>of and it's not just the rights of nature. There

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<v Speaker 4>are other sort of tangential things happening alongside of it.

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<v Speaker 4>But inside of these fundamental shifts are some core principles, right,

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<v Speaker 4>and one of them is a fundamental shift in how

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<v Speaker 4>we perceive the world around us. And also it's about

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<v Speaker 4>shifting power, because power over the last how many thousands

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<v Speaker 4>of years or whatever, especially last hundreds of years in

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<v Speaker 4>the Western world, but not just the Western world, there

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<v Speaker 4>has been a usurption of power into more and more

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<v Speaker 4>central organizations, central governments, certain particular types of people, religions,

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<v Speaker 4>just all power has been kind of usurped by these entities.

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<v Speaker 4>And that power is now being returned to where it's

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<v Speaker 4>supposed to be, which is in everybody right equally. And

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<v Speaker 4>we're also waking up from this ridiculous illusion that anything

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<v Speaker 4>under the sun is separate, or anything under the sun

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<v Speaker 4>or the stars for that matter, exists in isolation.

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<v Speaker 3>I really do.

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<v Speaker 4>Think that future generations are going to look back on

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<v Speaker 4>now and say that's when the shift happened. I mean, obviously,

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<v Speaker 4>change happens over time, and you know, again, nothing exists

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<v Speaker 4>in isolation. It's not as if the cultural and legal

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<v Speaker 4>shifts happening now are a build up from everything that

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<v Speaker 4>has come before.

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<v Speaker 3>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>But there was one other thing that was major for

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<v Speaker 2>us when this came out, and that thing was that

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<v Speaker 2>the ruling was based on the fact that the mining

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<v Speaker 2>company would harm the biodiversity of the forest, and not

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<v Speaker 2>particularly an endangered species or something of the like, but

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<v Speaker 2>that the entire ecosystem itself was considered for the ruling

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<v Speaker 2>rather than just something specific. And for me, that has

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<v Speaker 2>been the one of the major issues for the rights

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<v Speaker 2>of Nature movement since it began, which is decide this

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<v Speaker 2>vagueness that existed to the law, and that's what they've

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<v Speaker 2>been using in Ohio and Florida and other places, saying,

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<v Speaker 2>you know this this law, we're going to preempt you

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<v Speaker 2>from bringing any rights of nature case to the court

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<v Speaker 2>because it's too vague and we can't make a ruling

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<v Speaker 2>on it, and blah blah blah. But now you can

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<v Speaker 2>see the foundation, what the foundation needs to be, and

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<v Speaker 2>if the foundation is biodiversity going forward, that is exactly

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<v Speaker 2>exactly what needs to happen. That was what we talked

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<v Speaker 2>about at the very beginning when we were talking about

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<v Speaker 2>Bills of Rights for rights of nation, you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>idea of like freedom of biodiversity. I mean, it's so huge.

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<v Speaker 2>That was the one thing that for us as far

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<v Speaker 2>as you know, journalists covering it like that was major.

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<v Speaker 3>It was. It was so huge.

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<v Speaker 1>And then the fact that like the way that it was,

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<v Speaker 1>the way the ruling was worded was like pretty prescriptive

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<v Speaker 1>for how lawmakers and regulators should be interpreting this law

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<v Speaker 1>in terms of protecting biodiversity too. I was actually like

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<v Speaker 1>really blown away by that ruling. I just was like, wow,

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<v Speaker 1>this is.

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<v Speaker 2>The same here as soon as I read it.

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<v Speaker 3>It's like something really new. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the language was like and was very very powerful

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<v Speaker 2>and very extraordinary. It will be cited you know, in

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<v Speaker 2>books from from here on down. It was just a

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<v Speaker 2>fantastic version of what kind of response you'd want to

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<v Speaker 2>see from a judge. I was tremendous.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I think also because like I'm so used to reading

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<v Speaker 1>rulings from American judges that are you know, disappointing at best.

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<v Speaker 1>It was like, Wow, this is what like something like

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<v Speaker 1>this could really do. And that's I think to me,

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<v Speaker 1>I feel like that's a really important aspect of rights

0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:17.960
<v Speaker 1>of nature too, is that it kind of shows people

0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:21.720
<v Speaker 1>this different world that you're talking about, Melissa, in a

0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:26.480
<v Speaker 1>way that like lets them, I don't know, engage with

0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:29.200
<v Speaker 1>how great it could be and not freak out. I mean,

0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:31.120
<v Speaker 1>I know if people do freak out about like trees

0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:34.040
<v Speaker 1>having rights or whatever, but I feel like they're starting

0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:37.120
<v Speaker 1>to be a little bit of a consciousness shift around that.

0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:40.400
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, and there absolutely has to be I mean, the

0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:44.280
<v Speaker 4>old ways are dying, and people who be like, oh,

0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:49.080
<v Speaker 4>why should a tree have rights like that? That way

0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:53.600
<v Speaker 4>is dying. And the reality is you can you can

0:16:53.640 --> 0:16:57.160
<v Speaker 4>cling to that all you want, but it's on its

0:16:57.200 --> 0:17:00.080
<v Speaker 4>way out and at some point you're probably going to

0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:03.880
<v Speaker 4>go out with it. We just can't exist that way. Literally,

0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:05.000
<v Speaker 4>we just cannot dying.

0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:08.960
<v Speaker 2>But also, sorry there was a pause.

0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:13.720
<v Speaker 4>No go ahead, Josh, Maybe you're maybe I am anticipating

0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:15.480
<v Speaker 4>you're going to say something like, yeah, it's dying. But

0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:20.760
<v Speaker 4>it's also in the throes of death the old way

0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:26.960
<v Speaker 4>will become bigger and bolder, and you know it's it's

0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:30.720
<v Speaker 4>going to try to assert itself even more in certain ways.

0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:36.880
<v Speaker 3>But at the same time, I don't know, twelve years of.

0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:45.840
<v Speaker 4>Brain brain melding. But at the same time that the old, oppressive,

0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:51.359
<v Speaker 4>extractive nature is property. You know, traditional ways are should

0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:56.160
<v Speaker 4>give way to just technology, technology, technology, all of that

0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:59.679
<v Speaker 4>is going to fight really hard to maintain a grip,

0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:03.680
<v Speaker 4>and that's going to be really it already is really

0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:06.560
<v Speaker 4>painful and has been painful for a lot of people.

0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:11.680
<v Speaker 4>But at the same time, the amount of people who

0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:18.000
<v Speaker 4>are coming into this and the amount of people pushing

0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:25.119
<v Speaker 4>and fighting and living and sharing a more beautiful and

0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:31.080
<v Speaker 4>sustainable and rational and sane and communal way of living

0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:36.240
<v Speaker 4>and being is also growing. And so I think all

0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:39.640
<v Speaker 4>of that is to say I am very optimistic. I mean,

0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:43.240
<v Speaker 4>I also recognize I'm a very privileged person and that

0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:51.960
<v Speaker 4>influences my perspective obviously, And I am also optimistic because

0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:57.280
<v Speaker 4>of the just the amount of people and different kinds

0:18:57.280 --> 0:19:00.640
<v Speaker 4>of people, different kinds of voices, and different people being

0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:05.840
<v Speaker 4>representative and represented, and the shift of power back into

0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:08.879
<v Speaker 4>the back into the places that it was stolen from.

0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:10.760
<v Speaker 4>I mean, we have a long way to go, but

0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:16.120
<v Speaker 4>that has been I mean, it's been growing, and if

0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:19.920
<v Speaker 4>that trend continues, I think we're going to be in

0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:27.960
<v Speaker 4>a better place tomorrow than we were Yesterday.

0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:33.840
<v Speaker 1>That's it for this time. Next week we'll bring you

0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:37.760
<v Speaker 1>the story of Day in New Zealand, so come back

0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:38.359
<v Speaker 1>for that.

0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:45.480
<v Speaker 5>I think when we when we crossed over the I

0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:48.960
<v Speaker 5>think the psychological barrier of not viewing through the winter

0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:57.080
<v Speaker 5>as property, the whole obstacle of ownership disappeared.

0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:10.560
<v Speaker 1>Damages is an original Critical Frequency production. Our senior producer

0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:14.639
<v Speaker 1>and editor is Sarah Ventry. Sound designed by Ray Pang,

0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:19.119
<v Speaker 1>mixing and mastering by Mark Busch. Our fact checker is

0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:23.119
<v Speaker 1>wooedan Yan. Our First Amendment Attorney is James Wheaton of

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<v Speaker 1>the First Amendment Project. We have a whole team of

0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:33.040
<v Speaker 1>contributing reporters that include Lindell Rowlands, Meg Duff, and Karen Savage.

0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:37.080
<v Speaker 1>The show was created and written by me Amy Westervelt.

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<v Speaker 1>support of the show. If you would like to support

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