1 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Damages. I'm Amy Westervelt. Last episode, we 2 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: heard about Ecuador's constitutional amendment to include rights of nature 3 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:22,079 Speaker 1: in a recent case that pitted the cloud forest of 4 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:26,639 Speaker 1: Losedros against a mining company and the government officials that 5 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: permitted mining in that forest. La Cortero's one, and today 6 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: we're going to get into a lot more detail about 7 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: what that ruling means and why it was so important, 8 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: not just an Ecuador but around the world. Joining me 9 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: for that discussion today are Melissa Trautman and Joshua Purbanik, 10 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: the co founders of Public Herald, an independent investigative journalism organization. 11 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: Melissa's based in Pennsylvania, Josh is in Ohio, and for 12 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,960 Speaker 1: years they uncovered lots of dirty secrets about fracking in 13 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:11,639 Speaker 1: those states. That work actually led them to rights of nature. 14 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: There's been a lot of activity to incorporate rights of 15 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 1: nature in both Ohio and Pennsylvania, mostly as a response 16 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: to industrial pollution of various kinds. Once they started digging 17 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: into the issue, Melissa and josh were hooked, and they 18 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: eventually made a documentary called Invisible Hand that came out 19 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty and is an excellent way into the 20 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: topic for anyone who is interested in learning more about it. 21 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: I caught up with them shortly after the Lausdroes ruling 22 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: came out to get their take on it. That conversation's 23 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: coming up right after this quick break. I want to 24 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: talk about the Lowis Sedros case and both of your 25 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: responses to that, and especially the fact that it kind 26 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: of well of getting paired with this decision to reaffirm 27 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: indigenous communities right to consultation and involvement in decision making 28 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: around extraction. So, yeah, what were you anticipating and you know, 29 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: what did you think of the ruling? 30 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 2: I didn't have any anticipations about what the ruling would be, 31 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 2: because it was really unclear from everybody we talked to 32 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 2: what was going to happen with this case. The part 33 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 2: that made me most excited was that there was so 34 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 2: much involvement from the international community and attention to the case, 35 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 2: which brought a lot more pressure on the courts and 36 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 2: on the discussion in general to see something become of that. 37 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 2: And that's what happened. We saw something that was absolutely 38 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 2: radical for the environmental movement overall and was literally a 39 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 2: turning point. I think where it'll go down as a 40 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 2: extremely historical moment that could change the mindset of the 41 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 2: environmental movement, which hasn't been able to be changed up 42 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 2: until then. And by that I mean the rights of 43 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 2: Nature has been written off as a fringe movement that 44 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 2: wasn't successful and wasn't getting the kind of notoriety that 45 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 2: these environmental organizations needed in order for them to get 46 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 2: behind it and use their resources on behalf of rights 47 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 2: of nature. But with losegdros and twenty five thousand acres 48 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 2: of forest being protected and it being done from a 49 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 2: constitutional court being one of the highest rulings of law 50 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 2: that you can get, that has significantly changed the perspective 51 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 2: from what I can see of environmental organizations and people 52 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 2: in general who are dealing with environmental problems. On top 53 00:03:52,280 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 2: of that, you have reinstated respect and introduction to Indigenous 54 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:04,839 Speaker 2: knowledge and Indigenous ways of thinking for these issues, and 55 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 2: that has been extremely important because it's allowing folks to 56 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 2: take a breath and take a step back from their 57 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 2: very siloed approach to this thing and bring in different 58 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 2: perspectives to the battles that they're facing and ask these 59 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 2: kinds of questions from the indigenous community in order, I think, 60 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 2: to get a better understanding of how they should approach 61 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 2: this issue from that mindset, and that has been something 62 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 2: we've neglected for so long now in the environmental movement, 63 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 2: and to see it come back into play through rights 64 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 2: of nature is I think, a way to show how 65 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 2: powerful this concept is. That Losadra's cases has been the 66 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 2: precipice for all of that. Now I have my own 67 00:04:56,120 --> 00:05:00,599 Speaker 2: personal response to it, which is more philosophical cool because 68 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 2: I've always seen rights of nature as sort of an 69 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 2: inevitable idea that has spawned out of capitalism and out 70 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 2: of democracy, and I think that moving forward with the 71 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 2: world and civilization, when you're looking at a ruling like Losadro's, 72 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 2: you're not necessarily looking at democracy. Democracy itself is a 73 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 2: very anthropocentric institution, and it's always served the interest of 74 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 2: humans overall. And I think that a government that changes, 75 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 2: a government that begins to serve the interest of nature 76 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 2: and puts nature at the center of decision making is 77 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:42,039 Speaker 2: something that I've been calling an autocracy, just to give 78 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:44,720 Speaker 2: it a name. And I think that this is some 79 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 2: of the first versions of an autocracy that we're seeing, 80 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 2: and I'm hoping that other folks are recognizing that transformation, 81 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 2: that academics are also recognizing that, and that they'll get 82 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 2: behind this idea of evolving democracy from what it's been 83 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 2: into something that does have reciprocity with nature, something that 84 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 2: does have the definitions of a substance and sustenance with nature, 85 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 2: and that that guild that we've lost can be rebuilt. 86 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 2: And I think that that conversation has only become more 87 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 2: tangible because of the the Los Agro's case, and you know, 88 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 2: look what it's done for. Chile is now talking about, 89 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 2: you know, bringing it into their country's constitution as well, 90 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 2: which would make I think that would make five countries 91 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 2: in the world who have now enshrined rights of nature 92 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 2: into their constitution. 93 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:42,799 Speaker 3: And that's what Blivia, Costa Rica, Panama right already, and then. 94 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 2: They have I think it doesn't serve the entire country, 95 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 2: but it serves portions of the country for it to 96 00:06:54,160 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 2: defend itself through rights of nature. But I mean, I 97 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 2: think the envirable movement's been working on this stuff for 98 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,480 Speaker 2: what like eighty years, ninety years or something, and nothing 99 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 2: has been for me, anywhere near as powerful as what 100 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 2: we saw with the Ecuador's case. 101 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: It struck me as an example of rights of nature 102 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 1: being sort of uniquely well positioned to deal with this 103 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: problem that's coming up where people are like getting off 104 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: of fossil fuels but then you know, just replacing them 105 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: with lithium and you know whatever else. This is like, 106 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: if we evaluate these these decisions through rights of nature lens, 107 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: you'd be less likely to do something versus evaluating it 108 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: through basically a capitalism lens, where you know, people are 109 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: just in this desperate rush to replace one energy source 110 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: with another and not change anything else, or just. 111 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 2: The regulatory lens, right, I mean, if you evaluate through that, 112 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 2: I mean we're going to practically nowhere, we're basically making 113 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 2: concessions in order for parts of nature to be sacrificed 114 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 2: and annihilated so that we can have some profit at 115 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 2: the end. You know. But this is like so far 116 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 2: from from that, and it is amazing and wonderful that 117 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 2: it happened. 118 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, Melissa, what were you going to say? 119 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 4: Like you said, rights of nature is particularly well suited 120 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 4: to lead us through the transition, right, and whether you're 121 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 4: talking about a transition from fossil fuels to renewable energies, 122 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 4: we're just talking about a transition to a more just world. 123 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 4: In general, Rights of Nature is a great way to 124 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 4: guide us into that new world. And it is a 125 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 4: totally new world. I mean, let's be real, a world 126 00:08:55,480 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 4: where decisions were made based on the fundamental principles of 127 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 4: the universe, of the physical universe, interconnectedness, reciprocity, diversity, you know, 128 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 4: like the laws of nature. By acknowledging those and keeping 129 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 4: those central to all of our decision making processes automatically 130 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 4: means to a certain degree that we are just making 131 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 4: more sustainable decisions. And also the rights of nature helps 132 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 4: with transitioning to a more equitable and just world, just 133 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 4: on a social level, because everything, every all living beings 134 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 4: are included in the rights of nature equally. You know, 135 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 4: the rights of nature is not giving more rights to 136 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 4: certain species and not others, not in principle anyway, although 137 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 4: there are interesting conflicts that will come up in the 138 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:02,079 Speaker 4: future between different species. You will have to answer questions 139 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:09,079 Speaker 4: like is the salmon more valuable than the algae eating 140 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 4: darters that thrive in that same ecosystem. You know, if 141 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:16,079 Speaker 4: one I think it was Christopher Stone you mentioned in 142 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 4: one of your previous podcasts about this where he brought 143 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 4: this up where like one species could thrive in a 144 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 4: cold water fishery and another species could thrive when the 145 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 4: water warms a little bit, So there is conflict in nature. 146 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 3: But back to Los Sidros. 147 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 4: I think that future generations are going to look back 148 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 4: on this point in human history and say that's when 149 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 4: the shift happened. I really believe that, and they're going 150 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 4: to point to things like the Los Adro's case and 151 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 4: rights of nature in general, because these cases and the 152 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 4: Rights of Nature movement not just the legal strategy, but 153 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 4: also the cultural shift, the paradigm shift in how we 154 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 4: think and how we see and how we feel and 155 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 4: what we do. That shift is so fundamental, so fundamentally 156 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:23,359 Speaker 4: different from the massive, exponentially industrial and exploitative and oppressive 157 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 4: period and human history that got us here in this 158 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 4: massive crisis no living beings had to ever grapple with 159 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 4: before in the history of the planet, which is how old. 160 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 4: I mean. We are shifting from a culture that is 161 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 4: separated itself from the non human world, has subjugated nature 162 00:11:54,080 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 4: to property, women to property, slaves to property. All of 163 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 4: that is shifting, and it's being birthed through this cultural 164 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 4: shift that the rights of nature movement is a part 165 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,439 Speaker 4: of and it's not just the rights of nature. There 166 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 4: are other sort of tangential things happening alongside of it. 167 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 4: But inside of these fundamental shifts are some core principles, right, 168 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 4: and one of them is a fundamental shift in how 169 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 4: we perceive the world around us. And also it's about 170 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 4: shifting power, because power over the last how many thousands 171 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 4: of years or whatever, especially last hundreds of years in 172 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 4: the Western world, but not just the Western world, there 173 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 4: has been a usurption of power into more and more 174 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 4: central organizations, central governments, certain particular types of people, religions, 175 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 4: just all power has been kind of usurped by these entities. 176 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 4: And that power is now being returned to where it's 177 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:16,319 Speaker 4: supposed to be, which is in everybody right equally. And 178 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 4: we're also waking up from this ridiculous illusion that anything 179 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 4: under the sun is separate, or anything under the sun 180 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 4: or the stars for that matter, exists in isolation. 181 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:31,439 Speaker 3: I really do. 182 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 4: Think that future generations are going to look back on 183 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 4: now and say that's when the shift happened. I mean, obviously, 184 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:41,319 Speaker 4: change happens over time, and you know, again, nothing exists 185 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 4: in isolation. It's not as if the cultural and legal 186 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 4: shifts happening now are a build up from everything that 187 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 4: has come before. 188 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 3: Right. 189 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 2: But there was one other thing that was major for 190 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 2: us when this came out, and that thing was that 191 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 2: the ruling was based on the fact that the mining 192 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 2: company would harm the biodiversity of the forest, and not 193 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 2: particularly an endangered species or something of the like, but 194 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 2: that the entire ecosystem itself was considered for the ruling 195 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 2: rather than just something specific. And for me, that has 196 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 2: been the one of the major issues for the rights 197 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 2: of Nature movement since it began, which is decide this 198 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 2: vagueness that existed to the law, and that's what they've 199 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 2: been using in Ohio and Florida and other places, saying, 200 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 2: you know this this law, we're going to preempt you 201 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 2: from bringing any rights of nature case to the court 202 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 2: because it's too vague and we can't make a ruling 203 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 2: on it, and blah blah blah. But now you can 204 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 2: see the foundation, what the foundation needs to be, and 205 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 2: if the foundation is biodiversity going forward, that is exactly 206 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 2: exactly what needs to happen. That was what we talked 207 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 2: about at the very beginning when we were talking about 208 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 2: Bills of Rights for rights of nation, you know, the 209 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 2: idea of like freedom of biodiversity. I mean, it's so huge. 210 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 2: That was the one thing that for us as far 211 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 2: as you know, journalists covering it like that was major. 212 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 3: It was. It was so huge. 213 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: And then the fact that like the way that it was, 214 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: the way the ruling was worded was like pretty prescriptive 215 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: for how lawmakers and regulators should be interpreting this law 216 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: in terms of protecting biodiversity too. I was actually like 217 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: really blown away by that ruling. I just was like, wow, 218 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: this is. 219 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 2: The same here as soon as I read it. 220 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 3: It's like something really new. Yeah. 221 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, the language was like and was very very powerful 222 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 2: and very extraordinary. It will be cited you know, in 223 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 2: books from from here on down. It was just a 224 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 2: fantastic version of what kind of response you'd want to 225 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 2: see from a judge. I was tremendous. 226 00:15:57,600 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. 227 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: I think also because like I'm so used to reading 228 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: rulings from American judges that are you know, disappointing at best. 229 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: It was like, Wow, this is what like something like 230 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: this could really do. And that's I think to me, 231 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: I feel like that's a really important aspect of rights 232 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: of nature too, is that it kind of shows people 233 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 1: this different world that you're talking about, Melissa, in a 234 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: way that like lets them, I don't know, engage with 235 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: how great it could be and not freak out. I mean, 236 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 1: I know if people do freak out about like trees 237 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 1: having rights or whatever, but I feel like they're starting 238 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 1: to be a little bit of a consciousness shift around that. 239 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, and there absolutely has to be I mean, the 240 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 4: old ways are dying, and people who be like, oh, 241 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 4: why should a tree have rights like that? That way 242 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 4: is dying. And the reality is you can you can 243 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 4: cling to that all you want, but it's on its 244 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,080 Speaker 4: way out and at some point you're probably going to 245 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 4: go out with it. We just can't exist that way. Literally, 246 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 4: we just cannot dying. 247 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 2: But also, sorry there was a pause. 248 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 4: No go ahead, Josh, Maybe you're maybe I am anticipating 249 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 4: you're going to say something like, yeah, it's dying. But 250 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 4: it's also in the throes of death the old way 251 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 4: will become bigger and bolder, and you know it's it's 252 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 4: going to try to assert itself even more in certain ways. 253 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:36,880 Speaker 3: But at the same time, I don't know, twelve years of. 254 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 4: Brain brain melding. But at the same time that the old, oppressive, 255 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 4: extractive nature is property. You know, traditional ways are should 256 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 4: give way to just technology, technology, technology, all of that 257 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 4: is going to fight really hard to maintain a grip, 258 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 4: and that's going to be really it already is really 259 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 4: painful and has been painful for a lot of people. 260 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 4: But at the same time, the amount of people who 261 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 4: are coming into this and the amount of people pushing 262 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 4: and fighting and living and sharing a more beautiful and 263 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 4: sustainable and rational and sane and communal way of living 264 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 4: and being is also growing. And so I think all 265 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,640 Speaker 4: of that is to say I am very optimistic. I mean, 266 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 4: I also recognize I'm a very privileged person and that 267 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 4: influences my perspective obviously, And I am also optimistic because 268 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 4: of the just the amount of people and different kinds 269 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,640 Speaker 4: of people, different kinds of voices, and different people being 270 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 4: representative and represented, and the shift of power back into 271 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 4: the back into the places that it was stolen from. 272 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 4: I mean, we have a long way to go, but 273 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:16,120 Speaker 4: that has been I mean, it's been growing, and if 274 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 4: that trend continues, I think we're going to be in 275 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 4: a better place tomorrow than we were Yesterday. 276 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: That's it for this time. Next week we'll bring you 277 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: the story of Day in New Zealand, so come back 278 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 1: for that. 279 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 5: I think when we when we crossed over the I 280 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 5: think the psychological barrier of not viewing through the winter 281 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 5: as property, the whole obstacle of ownership disappeared. 282 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: Damages is an original Critical Frequency production. Our senior producer 283 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 1: and editor is Sarah Ventry. Sound designed by Ray Pang, 284 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:19,119 Speaker 1: mixing and mastering by Mark Busch. Our fact checker is 285 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 1: wooedan Yan. Our First Amendment Attorney is James Wheaton of 286 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:26,439 Speaker 1: the First Amendment Project. We have a whole team of 287 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: contributing reporters that include Lindell Rowlands, Meg Duff, and Karen Savage. 288 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: The show was created and written by me Amy Westervelt. 289 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: Big thank you to the File Foundation for their generous 290 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: support of the show. If you would like to support 291 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 1: the show, you can do so by becoming a premium 292 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: subscriber on Apple Podcasts or by just leaving us a rating. 293 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: Most people might not know this, but readings are house 294 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: shows actually make it into the podcast charts. So when 295 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 1: you give us a reading, it helps our chan says 296 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 1: to get into those charts and then reach other listeners. 297 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 1: If you like the show, please give us a rating 298 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: or review, and if you have ideas for other cases 299 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,360 Speaker 1: we should be following or topics you'd like to see 300 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,400 Speaker 1: us get into, shoot me a note at Amy at 301 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,880 Speaker 1: critical frequency dot org. Thanks for listening and we'll see 302 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 1: you next time.