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Speaker 1: Hey there, everybody. Welcome to the latest episode, this episode

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Speaker 1: of Amy and TJ. I want to start by asking

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Speaker 1: a question of you, Robot, of something you just said.

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Speaker 1: Maybe other parents out there can possibly answer this. What

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Speaker 1: does it mean when you say I raised my child

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Speaker 1: well enough? You just say you say you raised her right?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: You raised you didn't say you raised or right. You

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Speaker 1: were talking about something complimentary. You're complimenting your seventeen year

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Speaker 1: old an Elyse said I raised her right enough?

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Speaker 3: What does that mean?

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Speaker 4: It means that I don't want to take credit for

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Speaker 4: what she does well, and I also don't want to

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Speaker 4: take credit for what she doesn't do well. No, I

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Speaker 4: joke a little bit, but I do believe that what

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Speaker 4: I wanted to do as a mom was to give

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Speaker 4: them a foundation, give them an example, but then expect

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Speaker 4: them to figure it out a little bit on their own.

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Speaker 4: So when they start to figure it out, I'm proud,

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Speaker 4: But I don't take credit because I know that there

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Speaker 4: are really take credit.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, I think you should take credit. But I've

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Speaker 1: never heard that before. People say, oh, you were raised right,

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Speaker 1: somebody raised you right.

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Speaker 2: Oh.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes your own parents will say I raised you right

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Speaker 1: because they're proud of something that you just did. You

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Speaker 1: did have to lay a foundation, but that foundation, again,

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Speaker 1: it's foundation so for them to build on. So when

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Speaker 1: you say it, right enough, I was laughing. But now

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Speaker 1: I didn't know. You didn't know I was going to

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Speaker 1: ask you this question, but I didn't know you were

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Speaker 1: going to get so heavy.

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Speaker 2: On me there.

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Speaker 4: Well, you know what I think, what I have tried

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Speaker 4: to do is not take ownership of my children. They're

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Speaker 4: not mine. They're their own, beautiful, free souls who I

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Speaker 4: get to guide. But at the end of the day,

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Speaker 4: what they choose is what they choose. And so that's

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Speaker 4: kind of where the disconnect was, where I.

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Speaker 2: Kind of.

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Speaker 1: A buffer cover when they I know.

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Speaker 4: Look, actually, you know the funny thing is when they

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Speaker 4: do fuck up, I probably will take ownership of that

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Speaker 4: and say what did I do wrong? And I'll probably

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Speaker 4: feel guilty about it, And hilariously, I think I'd be

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Speaker 4: more willing to take that on and say I should

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Speaker 4: have done better here, there or wherever.

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Speaker 3: But when they do well, I want them to own it.

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Speaker 3: So anyway, it's silly. It was just a little thing.

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Speaker 4: She thanked you for something without my prompting, which I

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Speaker 4: was like, oh, that's so good to hear I raised

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Speaker 4: her well enough or right enough, like okay, good like

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Speaker 4: I wasn't expecting that. And then it made me really

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Speaker 4: happy that she did it. But I didn't want to

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Speaker 4: take credit for it. Does that make any sense?

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Speaker 1: I don't know if my child would have done so,

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Speaker 1: I said, Man, I feel good even though I say

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Speaker 1: it to myself. Man, I raised it right, she was

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Speaker 1: raised right. Man, I did a good job. I did

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Speaker 1: something right. I would never think well, I did right enough.

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Speaker 3: I think I know that I've messed up enough. But

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Speaker 3: we were Actually I actually just took her.

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Speaker 4: To the airport. She's going on and break again. Here's

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Speaker 4: another story of me having a child go off on

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Speaker 4: their own. So she's you know, she's at an age

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Speaker 4: where I did this to my senior year. But this

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Speaker 4: is for me, the first time she's going anywhere without

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Speaker 4: any sort of supervision. So eventually, even when she gets there,

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Speaker 4: she's still with her other friends. So we had some

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Speaker 4: amazing conversations in the car on the way to the airport.

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Speaker 4: And of course it's a very long ride to JFK

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Speaker 4: on a busy commuting commuting money Monday. Sorry, I can't

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Speaker 4: talk on a very busy commuter day, work weekday. It's

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Speaker 4: not Monday. Yes, well I'm doing great.

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Speaker 2: So.

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Speaker 4: I'm right enough. Yes, I hope everyone can commiserate. If

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Speaker 4: you two get tongue talk. Oh my god, Okay, maybe

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Speaker 4: I should let you keep talking. No, So, anyway, we

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Speaker 4: had a good conversation about just all the different twists

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Speaker 4: and turns of life and how I'm just proud of

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Speaker 4: how she's made certain choices, and I'm proud of the

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Speaker 4: fact that her resilience has shown through some very difficult times.

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Speaker 4: And so I hope I was just talking to her

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Speaker 4: about carrying that with her throughout her life and taking

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Speaker 4: all these moments when things don't go the way you

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Speaker 4: want them to or things get messy, that you find

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Speaker 4: a way not to point to other people and say

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Speaker 4: why did you do this to me? Why did this

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Speaker 4: happen to me, but instead to say I learned something,

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Speaker 4: and I'm going to I'm going to be able to

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Speaker 4: take what I learned and make this something that I

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Speaker 4: can own. I can say what can I do better?

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Speaker 4: What can I do differently? Anyway, we just have this

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Speaker 4: great insightful conversation. Yeah, maybe that prompted to thank you.

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Speaker 1: I don't know the great way to store spring break

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Speaker 1: want as you would say, No.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's fair, that's fair.

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Speaker 1: Your kids are really really impressive. They are really really impressive.

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Speaker 1: They're so different. But yes, I didn't plan on asking

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Speaker 1: me about that when we started here, but that just

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Speaker 1: came up. You said, I raised her right enough, and

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Speaker 1: that was funny to me. I planned on starting the

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Speaker 1: episode by talking about something that seven episodes ago, seven

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Speaker 1: episodes ago. I don't expect you to remember exactly, but

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Speaker 1: it was the episode that we had doctor Elizabeth Coleman on. Okay,

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Speaker 1: now do you remember, and again this is not a

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Speaker 1: trick question, but you might remember what I said to

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Speaker 1: you when we started. There was a particular way. Do

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Speaker 1: you remember what I said at the beginning of that.

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Speaker 4: Episode, the beginning of the Doctor Coman episode. No, you're

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Speaker 4: gonna have to refresh my mind. I came in hot,

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Speaker 4: you came in hot. The first thing on my mouth

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Speaker 4: was I got a bone to pick with you.

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Speaker 3: I still don't remember.

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Speaker 1: Okay, all right, that's okay. But doctor Coleman was on

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Speaker 1: because doctor Coleman has a book talking about women's health

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Speaker 1: that she was in the studio with us at the

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Speaker 1: time we were starting, and I told you I got

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Speaker 1: a bone to pick. I see, it had been a

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Speaker 1: year and a half since you had had your recommended

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Speaker 1: blood work as a breast cancer survivor for them to

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Speaker 1: come back in and check you out. Okay, am I

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Speaker 1: sending this up right? You remember?

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Speaker 2: Now? Yes?

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Speaker 4: I absolutely do, and so yes, up until that point

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Speaker 4: it had been recommended to me, and I had followed

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Speaker 4: very religiously, going in every six months for blood work.

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Speaker 1: And we want to keep and again, so we want

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Speaker 1: to start here, folks with a little bit of news

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Speaker 1: because we have had you all along for this journey.

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Speaker 1: So move forward a few episodes after that one, and

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Speaker 1: you gave an update that you had in fact madeor appointment.

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Speaker 1: Now we won't get into why you may. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to get into why you made the appointment.

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Speaker 1: I was actually having some health issues and I have

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Speaker 1: some unexplained or had some unexplained weight loss, and you

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Speaker 1: were telling me to get into the doctor, and you

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Speaker 1: were on me pretty good about it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I said, maybe you needed some blood work.

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Speaker 1: Yes you did, which was hilrinous coming from a moment

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Speaker 1: who was a year and a half passed. But I mean,

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Speaker 1: I wasn't trying to shame you, but you know you

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Speaker 1: should have gotten in. There were reasons for fine, whatelse

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Speaker 1: it worked. But you told us on that episode that

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Speaker 1: you had in fact made an appointment.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, and I surprised you with it.

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Speaker 4: I didn't even realize that I was going to drop

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Speaker 4: that bomb, but it was a good one, and so

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Speaker 4: yes I did, and we went in together and I

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Speaker 4: got the blood work. It actually was remarkably quick and easy.

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Speaker 4: It's so funny what you worry about and what you

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Speaker 4: think about, and then when it actually happens and you

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Speaker 4: do it, it's so much easier than you were anticipating,

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Speaker 4: isn't it Always the anticipation that's the toughest part. And

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Speaker 4: so we went in, got the blood work. It was

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Speaker 4: awesome to have you by my side. Thank you, because

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Speaker 4: I always have a little bit of a tough time

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Speaker 4: emotionally going back into that building where I first got diagnosed,

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Speaker 4: and I think that is part of the reason why

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Speaker 4: I dragged my feet a little bit. Not only am

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Speaker 4: I worried about potentially what the results could be, but

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Speaker 4: it's just going back into that building is tough. For me,

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Speaker 4: so to have you there with me was huge, So

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Speaker 4: thank you. And got the results back just a little

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Speaker 4: while ago, and I am all clear, all clear, And

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Speaker 4: I think when I sent you the text, I sent

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Speaker 4: a little champagne glasses clinking like cheers, because thank you

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Speaker 4: for pushing me a little bit to get into that

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Speaker 4: office and to be able to say, Okay, I got

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Speaker 4: the blood work, and now I haven't all clear for

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Speaker 4: a while, and now she told me I can come

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Speaker 4: back once a year now, so I've graduated to once

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Speaker 4: a year. But the thread is always there and I'll

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Speaker 4: probably always drag my feet a little bit because it's

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Speaker 4: always scary, what's this test going to show? What's this

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Speaker 4: blood we're going to do? But when you do do it,

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Speaker 4: and you do if you are lucky enough to get

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Speaker 4: a good result, wow, is that a huge, huge relief.

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Speaker 1: And I am I don't want to be crass or

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Speaker 1: have this sound like I'm not being sensitive to it,

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Speaker 1: but I have been learning. I've known you obviously for

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Speaker 1: ten years, but been in a relationship with you like

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Speaker 1: this only for the past year and a half, two

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Speaker 1: years coming up on potentially here this year. But I

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Speaker 1: am learning about what this means too, and why you

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Speaker 1: did drag your feet because when you go in again,

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Speaker 1: I'll put this in the shortest way, this is how

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Speaker 1: you all explained to me. Breast cancer survivor, you go

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Speaker 1: in and get this blood work, if there is a

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Speaker 1: recurrence or has come back, is it essentially a death sentence.

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Speaker 1: You're essentially being told that this cancer now is metastatic

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Speaker 1: and there's no cure for that. So you go in

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Speaker 1: and sitting in that office with you with doctor Ratzo,

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Speaker 1: you obviously know well, but I've had a chance to

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Speaker 1: get to know here lately. Did I have more questions

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Speaker 1: than you?

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Speaker 4: You did? You asked a lot of questions. Actually, well,

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Speaker 4: it was such a loving thing to do because yes,

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Speaker 4: you're a journalist, but you're curious because you love me

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Speaker 4: and you haven't been along in an intimate way on

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Speaker 4: this journey, and so you had questions about being a

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Speaker 4: breast cancer survivor and what that means. And most people

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Speaker 4: don't know unless they've walked down that road. And especially

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Speaker 4: you know there are different kinds of breast cancers, but

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Speaker 4: she pointed out to you when you have a estrogen

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Speaker 4: positive cancer, some of the other cancers are more aggressive.

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Speaker 4: And scarier at first, and if you can make it

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Speaker 4: five years or ten years, there's a bigger relief of whoo,

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Speaker 4: it's probably not going to come back when you have

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Speaker 4: a estrogen positive cancer. I also had a positive lymph node.

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Speaker 4: My uncle score was higher than they expected, So there's

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Speaker 4: a lot of things that factor into it. But she

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Speaker 4: basically explained to you that I can never have that

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Speaker 4: sigh of relief.

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Speaker 1: Ever in life. She explained percentages and how do they

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Speaker 1: go up? How do you get them down? And I

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Speaker 1: understand it a little better now, but even listening to

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Speaker 1: you now, this is where I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: people in society don't get unless you have somebody right

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Speaker 1: next to it. But when you say a lymph node this,

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Speaker 1: or an ANCA score or that, it gets into the

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Speaker 1: weeds to where I don't get it. I'm learning a

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Speaker 1: little more. But bottom line, when you go in and

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Speaker 1: you get this blood work, you are essentially waiting for

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Speaker 1: them to tell you whether or not you have gotten

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Speaker 1: a death sentence. And that is the simplest and shortest way.

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Speaker 1: And I didn't want you to see me, but I

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Speaker 1: wiped tears out of my eye sitting in that office,

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Speaker 1: and you didn't see that.

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Speaker 3: I didn't say that.

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Speaker 1: How she's explaining things and I'm trying to be the

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Speaker 1: strong and a crack a joke here and do this

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Speaker 1: and keep everything warm, and she said a few things

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Speaker 1: that fuck just fucks me up to think about the

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Speaker 1: road ahead, and it makes you want to We are

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Speaker 1: not wasting a day. We are we just cannot. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: you might never have to do with breast cancer again

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Speaker 1: or rest your life. Hopefully that's the case. But I

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Speaker 1: thought it was important to share with the audience. Yes,

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Speaker 1: in fact, it is done. We got the all clear.

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Speaker 1: Now we wait.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know what I want to point out too.

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Speaker 4: It is a death sentence right now, one hundred percent.

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Speaker 4: But there are new advances being made every year, and

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Speaker 4: there is an incredibly advanced quality of life. But it

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Speaker 4: is a completely different way of life, and you've seen

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Speaker 4: it through our dear beautiful friend Morgan, where you now

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Speaker 4: have a life of treatment always every two weeks, every

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Speaker 4: three weeks you are getting chemo infusions or you're getting

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Speaker 4: some sort of immunotherapy and your body is weakened and

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Speaker 4: you have a different standard of life. And so it

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Speaker 4: is a complete about face from the way a lot

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Speaker 4: of us, and most of us live and so there

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Speaker 4: is there is an intention behind every moment that you

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Speaker 4: don't necessarily have until you've walked this path, and I

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Speaker 4: hope no one has to, but there is a beauty

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Speaker 4: in it.

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Speaker 3: There is a joint.

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Speaker 4: I'm about to go on a trip with Morgan here

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Speaker 4: in a couple of weeks because that girl is seeing

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Speaker 4: the world. And you know, that's what I have taken

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Speaker 4: from this is that all of us aren't guaranteed tomorrow.

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Speaker 4: So if all of us can live differently and better

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Speaker 4: because of it. But a light bulb went off for you,

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Speaker 4: I could tell yesterday.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah it did. And look they will continue to

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Speaker 1: do so and I'll continue to learn and then west.

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Speaker 1: Being with you has been one of the great joys

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Speaker 1: of my life. You never know what direction life is

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Speaker 1: going to take me, but here we are in the

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Speaker 1: universe has here and to your point there about you

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Speaker 1: never know. You never know what day is going to

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Speaker 1: be your last, or what moment. And we certainly thought

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Speaker 1: about that and talked about that when we were watching

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Speaker 1: the bridge collapse in Baltimore. Just to think the people

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Speaker 1: who were just going about their day or working or whatever,

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Speaker 1: and something like that in a moment, a split second.

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Speaker 1: And you kept pointing out as we were watching the

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Speaker 1: video of the cars that were going by, I mean,

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Speaker 1: think about the people who just missed it by seconds

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Speaker 1: or a minute or whatever going across that bridge and

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Speaker 1: they got home to their families or whatever, because you

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Speaker 1: just never know you were in a moment where something

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Speaker 1: like that happened. So we wanted to certainly acknowledge that's

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Speaker 1: going to be a story for a long time, a

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Speaker 1: lot of healing in that community and rebuilding in that community.

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Speaker 1: And as we were talking here, I believe it's six

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Speaker 1: people who are on accounted for and they've called off

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Speaker 1: the search. But that was a it was an awful,

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Speaker 1: awful thing to say.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we woke up to it, and watching that video

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Speaker 4: just makes your heart wrench and your your stomach just

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Speaker 4: tightened because you just think, oh, my goodness, probably those

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Speaker 4: folks for either I don't know, coming back from the airport,

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Speaker 4: are getting off of a long night shift. You know

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Speaker 4: who's driving at those hours, and you're probably just wanting

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Speaker 4: to get home or maybe you're going to work, but

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Speaker 4: not thinking about the unthinkable.

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Speaker 1: Righting.

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Speaker 4: Thank god, it was one thirty in the morning, but

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Speaker 4: I just yes, I was looking at those cars like

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Speaker 4: just seconds before, thinking what are those people thinking now?

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Speaker 4: And you know what, I bet every one of those

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Speaker 4: people who were on that bridge moments before, and there

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Speaker 4: were a lot of them, will never live the same.

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Speaker 4: They will never look at each day the way they

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Speaker 4: did before. They will hug they. I mean when I start,

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Speaker 4: honestly this week and when I know I'm about to

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Speaker 4: get a blood test, and it's silly to have it

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Speaker 4: only be in these moments, but I'm reminded again, call

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Speaker 4: your friends, call your family, tell them you love them

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Speaker 4: like you just don't know.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, and that other part of that. And you

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Speaker 1: and I have been to scenes of low our career.

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Speaker 1: Many times we get that call, head to this town,

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Speaker 1: head to that town, And it was so much of

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Speaker 1: what we did for so long, and we got into

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Speaker 1: the business to it because we did enjoy the reporting.

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Speaker 1: We did enjoy being on the big stories and watching

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Speaker 1: this and thinking being on those scenes and that emotion

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Speaker 1: and the toll it takes on you over ten twenty

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Speaker 1: thirty years, nothing compared to what those families are going through.

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Speaker 1: But it was to sit back and watch it from

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Speaker 1: a distance it kind of struck me a little different

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Speaker 1: to watch it this way and didn't miss, didn't have

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Speaker 1: a desire to want to rush out there and be

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Speaker 1: on the scene and do the reporting, is how I

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Speaker 1: felt in that moment, because it's just so draining and emotional,

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Speaker 1: and just I had that thought I was watching something.

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Speaker 3: Well, we didn't talk about that.

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Speaker 4: I just said, oh God, you get transported to what

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Speaker 4: we did, as you said, for all those years, adding

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Speaker 4: the calls in the middle of the night and jumping

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Speaker 4: on planes and racing to these scenes of just awful tragedy,

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Speaker 4: whether it was whether it was a school shooting or

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Speaker 4: it was an act of terrorism, or just a horrific

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Speaker 4: natural disaster or an unexplained accident. But yeah, we've rushed

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Speaker 4: to those scenes for the majority of our adult lives

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Speaker 4: and talk to the people most directly affected. But yes,

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Speaker 4: when you're sitting back and watching it, and I will say, yes,

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Speaker 4: our hearts go out to all of the people impacted

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Speaker 4: and affected. And yet I don't miss, don't I don't

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Speaker 4: miss putting myself in the middle of it all. It's

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Speaker 4: a lot, it's a lot, but it was. Yeah, that

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Speaker 4: was probably one of the first big news stories where

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Speaker 4: there were casualties that we weren't called to report on.

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Speaker 1: But look, we applaud there are plenty of journalists out there,

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Speaker 1: reporter are doing great work. And to be on that scene,

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Speaker 1: it's not just a matter of the hours and getting

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Speaker 1: in front of a case and all of that being

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Speaker 1: away from your family. It does. It takes a toll

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Speaker 1: on those journalists we know to be there and talking

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Speaker 1: to families or dealing with communities that are having such

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Speaker 1: a difficult time, so our hearts go out to them,

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Speaker 1: and that this was a big story, and we both

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Speaker 1: think back to another big story that we covered years

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Speaker 1: and years ago that we didn't think we'd be covering

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Speaker 1: again because this was twenty plus years ago now. And

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Speaker 1: what we're talking about here is the Lacy Peterson in

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Speaker 1: Scott Peterson his murder trial. He's been in prison for

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Speaker 1: twenty plus years now, convicted of her murder. I don't

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Speaker 1: have to go into the backstory about Lacy Peterson, Scott Peterson,

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Speaker 1: you know it. But to sit here now with you,

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Speaker 1: robok and to think that story's not over, to think

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Speaker 1: that there is now someone legit I say someone, an entity,

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Speaker 1: the La Innocence Project, the Innocence Project over this in

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Speaker 1: this country has a hell of a reputation. They are

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Speaker 1: getting involved to possibly look at new evidence that they

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Speaker 1: say could possibly exonerate Scott Peterson.

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Speaker 4: That's right, And you and I have talked about this

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Speaker 4: because when you cover these stories the way we have,

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Speaker 4: Yes there is the trial, Yes there's the jury and

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Speaker 4: the conviction, and there's some interest in all of that.

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Speaker 4: People love crime shows. But what we know is when

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Speaker 4: you cover these stories, it's the victims' families that are

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Speaker 4: obviously the most impacted that get lost in so many

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Speaker 4: ways when we're all covering this. And so I just

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Speaker 4: as we talk about this, I do want to acknowledge

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Speaker 4: and I know you do too, TJ. Lacy Peterson's family.

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Speaker 4: They have been through something that none of us would

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Speaker 4: ever want for anyone we love, to lose their daughter

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Speaker 4: and their grandson, Connor. She was eight months pregnant. Both

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Speaker 4: of their bodies washed up four months after she went missing.

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Speaker 4: I think that was April of two thousand and three.

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Speaker 4: And what they've been through so finally to get through

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Speaker 4: the trial, to feel like there's some justice. Of course

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Speaker 4: their pain never ends, but to at least feel like

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Speaker 4: they've had justice served, gives two decades removed.

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Speaker 1: Yes, they kind I don't want to say they ever

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Speaker 1: would completely move on. But for twenty years, you think

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Speaker 1: that the person responsible for killing these two people you

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Speaker 1: love is going away. Now this is done, and you're

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Speaker 1: trying to move on and rebuild in your life. And

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Speaker 1: now can you imagine them being told, wait a second,

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Speaker 1: wait a second, this guy might be this guy might

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Speaker 1: be innocent. So what happened? Can you imagine what's going

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Speaker 1: on in there?

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Speaker 4: Hends now and so all of this has obviously been

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Speaker 4: happening for quite some time, because remember in twenty twenty,

401
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Speaker 4: he actually had He wasn't initially originally convicted to death.

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Speaker 4: I mean he was sentenced to death. He was on

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Speaker 4: death row, and a few years ago he was taken

404
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Speaker 4: off death row. His sentence was commuted to a life

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Speaker 4: sentence without parole. That's one thing. But now the La

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Speaker 4: Innocence Project is involved. As you pointed out, they have

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Speaker 4: some new DNA evidence that they would like to be tested.

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Speaker 4: They say they have other evidence that they say will

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Speaker 4: set him free, that will exonerate him. Scott Peterson has

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Speaker 4: maintained his innocence throughout this entire I mean, from the beginning,

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Speaker 4: he's always said he didn't do this, and they've always

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Speaker 4: pointed the finger at this other potential these other potential suspects.

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Speaker 4: There was a burglary across the street. And so now

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Speaker 4: I do feel for Lacy's family that they now have

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Speaker 4: to go through this all again. And we haven't heard

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Speaker 4: from them, by the way, but we did want to

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Speaker 4: talk to Scott Peterson's attorney, Mark Garrigosi, represented him from

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Speaker 4: the beginning. He's a I'm sure many of you know

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Speaker 4: his name. He is a very famous defense attorney, and

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Speaker 4: he has always said that this case for him was

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Speaker 4: his greatest not just professional defeat, but personal defeat, because

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Speaker 4: he has always believed in Scott's innocence. And so as

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Speaker 4: this case now comes back into the limelight, just a

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Speaker 4: few weeks ago, we saw Scott Peterson in court via

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Speaker 4: zoom and now he will have another court date in

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Speaker 4: just a few weeks. So this is just the beginning,

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Speaker 4: and this is going to be going on for several

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Speaker 4: months into the summer, and we'll see what happens if

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Speaker 4: he gets a new trial, of course that's what he wants.

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Speaker 4: But we were able to sit down with Mark Garrigos

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Speaker 4: just a few days ago to talk about the trial

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Speaker 4: that happened, what his feelings are, and what he thinks

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Speaker 4: may happen next. And Mark, tell us what is going

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Speaker 4: on with the Scott Peterson case. I know you and

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Speaker 4: I talked about this a decade ago, and you've always

436
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Speaker 4: said Scott Peterson is innocent. You didn't say he was

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Speaker 4: not guilty, you said he was innocent.

438
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:35,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I've taken a lot of heat for it,

439
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 2: and I get it. I mean, he's not the first

440
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,000
Speaker 2: or probably last, most hated man in America that I'll

441
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:47,359
Speaker 2: represent in my career. But I have said for almost

442
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,560
Speaker 2: twenty years, I don't think anybody knew the evidence in

443
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 2: real time better than I did. And I saw nothing

444
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,040
Speaker 2: over the course of that year to fifteen months that

445
00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:03,120
Speaker 2: we were kind of intensely immersed in it that led

446
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,120
Speaker 2: me to believe that he did it. In fact, everything

447
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,399
Speaker 2: that I saw, all the evidence I saw, I was

448
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,440
Speaker 2: always fairly confident no matter who they put up there,

449
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:16,040
Speaker 2: no matter what document they had, no matter what document

450
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:20,160
Speaker 2: dump they did, that it was always going to exonerate him.

451
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:25,040
Speaker 2: And it certainly did in terms of what I saw,

452
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,159
Speaker 2: and part of the problem with that case was that

453
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 2: where the body was recovered was the thing that people

454
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:38,120
Speaker 2: could not get passed. And what I always point out

455
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:42,000
Speaker 2: in response to that is, look, between the time Lacey

456
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,280
Speaker 2: went missing with Connor and the time she was found

457
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 2: was over four months. Where she was found was widely

458
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 2: known within a week, So you had a four month

459
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 2: period of time where everybody knew where his alibi was.

460
00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,880
Speaker 2: Number one, Number two. That may have been the most

461
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:04,160
Speaker 2: searched area in America. They brought in the US Navy,

462
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 2: they brought in sonar, they brought in submarines, they brought

463
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,199
Speaker 2: in by the way that bay used to recede to

464
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,879
Speaker 2: a height of about six to twelve inches. Nobody found

465
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,160
Speaker 2: a thing for four months until a large storm came

466
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,440
Speaker 2: along and then all of a sudden, the remains washed ashore.

467
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 1: Mark, Are you more certain now since the trial? Have

468
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:30,359
Speaker 1: you seen things that make you even more sure of

469
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 1: his innocence?

470
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:36,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's And I'd like to say, at my recommendation,

471
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:42,680
Speaker 2: Cliff Gardner, who handled his appeal and the initial stages

472
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 2: of his habeas who successfully argued to the California Supreme

473
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:51,720
Speaker 2: Court to unanimously reverse the death penaltygue conviction, he did

474
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:56,239
Speaker 2: a wonderful job post conviction of investigating some of the

475
00:23:56,280 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 2: things that were turning up after the conviction. Thing that's

476
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 2: turned up after the conviction has pointed to the fact

477
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:08,800
Speaker 2: that he's that he should have been exonerated of this thing.

478
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,720
Speaker 2: Not the least of which is the day that he

479
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 2: was convicted, the prosecution handed me, Mind you, jury was

480
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 2: out for nine days. They removed, you know, several jurors

481
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 2: who were voting not guilty because they they you know,

482
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 2: the judge had told me, you know, confidentially, and he's

483
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 2: now passed away that the California then California Supreme Court

484
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,120
Speaker 2: Chief Justice had told him, there's no way this thing

485
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 2: is going to be a hung jury. You cannot let

486
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 2: this be a hung jury. And so while the jurors

487
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 2: were deliberating over the course of that week and a half,

488
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 2: they were removing the jurors who were not voting guilty, basically,

489
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 2: and when they finally got the verdict, the prosecution that

490
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 2: they handed me a call sheet. And it turns out

491
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 2: there was a lieutenant at the Gino State Prison who

492
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,719
Speaker 2: had overheard a call of an inmate talking to one

493
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:09,360
Speaker 2: of the burglars about confronting Lacy and so if you're

494
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,720
Speaker 2: not in the weeds on this case, there was a

495
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 2: burglary across the street at the time. Back in the

496
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 2: that we tried this case, Modesto PD took the position

497
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 2: that burglary had occurred on the twenty sixth of December. Well,

498
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,879
Speaker 2: if you believe that, you would believe that the throng

499
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,920
Speaker 2: of media that was already out there on that street,

500
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 2: on a very narrow street and camped out with satellite trucks,

501
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,479
Speaker 2: that there was a burglary happening thirty feet away and

502
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,639
Speaker 2: they never saw it or saw anything about it. So

503
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 2: part of the innocence project now is a van that

504
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:48,919
Speaker 2: had been burned out with a mattress and that we

505
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 2: think may relate to the burglary.

506
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 4: So right now, from what I understand, the La Innocence

507
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 4: Project is asking that some blood that was found on

508
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 4: that mattress be tested. I I believe it's already been

509
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 4: confirmed that it's human. But what are they looking for

510
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 4: and what do you think they may find?

511
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 2: Well, this is an interesting another little twist here. So

512
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 2: twenty years ago during the case mitochondrial DNA. Mind you

513
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,880
Speaker 2: just going back to two thousand and four was not

514
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 2: admissible in California. We actually had a one week caring

515
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 2: to get mitochondrial DNA and admit it. So you think

516
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 2: about that, it's kind of crazy because now we assume

517
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 2: DNA is always admissible. Blah blah blah. Hopefully there is

518
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 2: enough remnants. Hopefully there is still a sample that the

519
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 2: California Department of Justice still has that they can then

520
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:49,400
Speaker 2: test the DNA. Mind you, they do have or did

521
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 2: have samples. One of the ways that they confirmed that

522
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,120
Speaker 2: it was Lacy and Connor at the time was they

523
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:59,400
Speaker 2: had had samples of DNA and when their remains washed up,

524
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 2: they were able to use the DNA samples that the

525
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,360
Speaker 2: Department of Justice had in order to confirm it was them.

526
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 2: I would hope that there still is a sample maintained,

527
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 2: it hasn't degraded, that they can figure out whether or

528
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:15,400
Speaker 2: not there is a connection.

529
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: Here is everything in your opinion writing on that blood sample,

530
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,400
Speaker 1: that DNA sample, And what if it turns out it's

531
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 1: not connected to Lacy Peterson? Then what?

532
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:29,920
Speaker 4: No?

533
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 1: I think?

534
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 2: Look, would it be fortuitous if it was absolutely? Is

535
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:37,159
Speaker 2: everything riding on it?

536
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 4: No?

537
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 2: I mean, if you were to look at the Habeas

538
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 2: corpus that has been filed in this case the California

539
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 2: Supreme Court when they issued the order reversing the death penalty,

540
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 2: they said the judge used the wrong standard for and

541
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 2: we were complaining about it in real time. Anybody who

542
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 2: said I don't to death penalty, the judge would dismiss them.

543
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,439
Speaker 2: What you ended up getting as a jury where people

544
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,439
Speaker 2: who were pro death penalty. If you've been around the courts,

545
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 2: you know, or if you have anecdotal experience, you know,

546
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 2: pro death penalty, tilt's prolog and order tilt's pro prosecution.

547
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,959
Speaker 2: So there was a whole demographic that we lost of

548
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 2: people who they didn't ask the next question, if you're

549
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,679
Speaker 2: anti death penalty, can you set that aside and follow

550
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 2: the law. The judge didn't do that, so they reversed that.

551
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 2: I always took the position, if you reversed the penalty phase,

552
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 2: then you should have reversed the guilt phase. Verdict. There's

553
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 2: that in the habeas, which has not gone to the

554
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 2: federal have been decided federally. There's also a series of

555
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 2: other errors that were committed that has not been decided federally.

556
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 2: This is just one of probably one hundred different issues

557
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 2: that has now percolated up to the point where somebody

558
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 2: has said, by the way, this was all sparked by

559
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 2: Scott himself filing a rit a habeas corpus Innocence project

560
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 2: got involved once the Court of Appeal said, hey, there

561
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 2: is something here, and that's why this judge within the

562
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 2: last two weeks has basically told the prosecution you have

563
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 2: to answer, and you have to answer this in the

564
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 2: next thirty days.

565
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 4: Yeah. I think his next hearing is April sixteenth. How

566
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 4: often do you talk to Scott if at all? I

567
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 4: know you were close obviously when this trial is going on.

568
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 4: You've believed in him all of these years. Do you

569
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 4: speak to him?

570
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 2: I haven't spoken to him recently. He does write to me.

571
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 2: He writes letters, which is better than I do. I've

572
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 2: I've been ruined by email. But the letters are informative

573
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 2: and heartfelt and I appre siate them. And I speak

574
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 2: more often with his sister in law, and she's doing

575
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 2: that wonderful job kind of being the engine for driving

576
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 2: the fact and the getting the exoneration for him.

577
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: And getting to this point knowing that again, believing as

578
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: strong as you do that he is innocent. So he's

579
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 1: been sitting in prison wrongfully for decades now, now this

580
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: has come up, what does a stir up in you even?

581
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I know you're a professional and everybody knows

582
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 1: your hard nos and damn good at your job. But

583
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 1: how does this stir you up? Knowing that a guy

584
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 1: that you represented and worked with has been sitting somewhere

585
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 1: that you don't think he should have been for the

586
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 1: past twenty years.

587
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 2: Look, I said, it was one of the worst professional

588
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 2: setbacks I've ever had. I'm jokingly not so jokingly engaged.

589
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 2: It's required a lot of alcohol therapy in the interim,

590
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 2: But I, you know, have this kind of maybe childlike

591
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 2: naivete that eventually he will be exonerated and eventually they'll

592
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 2: figure out what really happened. Because, as I've said, and

593
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 2: I will continue to say, anybody who spent as much

594
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 2: time with the evidence and spent as much time with

595
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 2: Scott as I have, I'm just convinced he didn't do it.

596
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 2: I will tell you I probably, as a private practitioner,

597
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 2: have represented more people accused of murder than anybody walking around.

598
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 2: For whatever reason. I've just I've handled over forty years,

599
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 2: countless murder cases, I know when somebody is good for it.

600
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 2: And having said that, you know anticipated question. Just because

601
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 2: you did the deed does not mean the inquiry ends there.

602
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 2: Is it a first? Is it a second? Is there

603
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 2: a murder? Is it a manslaughter? I have another case

604
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:07,479
Speaker 2: right now, the Benendez brothers, which were on habeas and

605
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 2: it's my position there they did it, but they did

606
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 2: not deserve to be convicted of murder. They should it

607
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 2: should have been a manslaughter. I'm not naive enough to

608
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 2: not understand who can do this, Who has the capability

609
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 2: to do this? Scott does not in my experience, based

610
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 2: on what I've seen and based on the evidence, this

611
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 2: is not somebody who could have committed this or red design.

612
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 3: Mark.

613
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 4: You said the evidence wasn't there that no one knows

614
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 4: it better than you. Obviously you know what the prosecution

615
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 4: laid out. There was a lot of circumstantial evidence. There

616
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 4: was the Amber fry where he was having an affair

617
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 4: a few months prior. Lacey was eight months pregnant. He

618
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 4: told Amber that he was a widower. But if you

619
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 4: believe so strongly that the evidence doesn't support the conviction,

620
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 4: why do you think those jurors voted to convict.

621
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 2: Oh, I think it's clear that when Pat Harris, who

622
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 2: I tried the case with, and Pat has done a

623
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 2: yeoman's job over the years, continuing to representative Pat after

624
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 2: he listened to the Amber Fright tapes, said that's a

625
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 2: you know, it's a tough tough thing to get over.

626
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 2: I was not as convinced that it was that tough.

627
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 2: But you have to understand Scott intuitively knew and I

628
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 2: will tell you why I wasn't as affected. I had

629
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 2: represented Gary Condit, who was, for those who don't remember,

630
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 2: was a congressman in California in approximate before the nine

631
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 2: to eleven was kind of the scandal DuJour that was

632
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 2: covered by the what I call the access of evil

633
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 2: back then for a criminal defendant, that was cable news

634
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 2: at night, the morning shows, and People magazine. So that

635
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 2: was the accident access of evil and Gary Kanda and

636
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 2: Chandra Levy and her disappearance was the scandal Djoure. I

637
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 2: remember at the time thinking, just because somebody is accused

638
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,880
Speaker 2: of having an affair, I understand that you can just

639
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 2: get blinded to that. Mind you in that case, I

640
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 2: kept saying at the time there's another guy who's sitting

641
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,320
Speaker 2: in prison in Gary Connan's case, who was jumping women

642
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,760
Speaker 2: in the park where Chandra next door. Chandra used to run.

643
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 2: I said to me, it's obvious, that's the logical suspect.

644
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 2: Nobody wanted to hear that, because they were convinced Allah

645
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 2: Dominic Dunn that it had to be the guy who

646
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 2: was having the affair. That is, I get it, that's

647
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,280
Speaker 2: human nature. I saw the same thing happening here. Frankly,

648
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 2: the idea that Scott Peterson because he's having an affair

649
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 2: with Amber Fry and I don't want to integrate her.

650
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 2: But you know, this was not Helen of Troy that

651
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 2: he was going to murder his unborn son and his

652
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 2: wife because he had fallen for this massage therapist out

653
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,800
Speaker 2: of Fresno. I mean, you know, I realize it's probably

654
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 2: not politically correct, but just because your wife is pregnant

655
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 2: in her eighth month and your big bag bonding with

656
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,399
Speaker 2: some woman you know who admitted on the stand she's

657
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,799
Speaker 2: never he never said I love you or anything else.

658
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 2: To me, that is ludicrous. It makes absolutely no sense

659
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 2: that a guy, mind you, we put a nun on

660
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 2: in the mitigation penalty phase. A nun who had known

661
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 2: Scott virtually her whole life as a character witness. The

662
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 2: idea that that kid, Scott Peterson, all of a sudden,

663
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 2: because of Amber Fry, decided to off his wife and

664
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 2: his unborn son was as ludicrous to me as anything

665
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 2: you could ever imagine. So it's a long way of

666
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 2: saying I don't buy it. I think the jury had

667
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 2: this problem when we selected that jury. I'll never forget

668
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:14,239
Speaker 2: there was a radio station had hired a truck to

669
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 2: encircle the courthouse. We had shifted. I'd won the change

670
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 2: of venue, but be careful what you wish for. We

671
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 2: got sent from Modesta or Stanislaus County to San Mateo,

672
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,800
Speaker 2: which was not exactly an upgrade. I was bitterly fighting

673
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 2: for Orange County because I said, if there's ever a

674
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 2: constituency for Scott, it would be adulterous golfers, and where

675
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,760
Speaker 2: are you going to find those? At Orange County, California.

676
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 2: But I couldn't get Orange County to the point amy

677
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 2: where I kept saying the da who's now a judge?

678
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 2: Rick Destaso, I said, your parents live in Orange County.

679
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 2: Let's go to Orange County. But we got San Mateo.

680
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 2: But the truck that's running around the courthouse as sixteen

681
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 2: hundred Jersey Company and has got Scott in his orange

682
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:07,320
Speaker 2: jumpsuit ban or Monster for people to vote during jury selection,

683
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:12,240
Speaker 2: and Monster won like ninety seven percent to three percent.

684
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 2: There was just no way he was going to get

685
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 2: acquitted in that carnival like atmosphere. Take a look google

686
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 2: the pictures of the celebration around the courthouse when he

687
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 2: was convicted. It was like nothing anybody has ever seen.

688
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 2: There's a picture on the front page of the local

689
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 2: paper a woman holding her child saying, this is better

690
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 2: than the day my son was born. So you have

691
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 2: to understand what it was like. That was why I

692
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 2: was attracted to the case in the first place, because

693
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 2: I don't like bullies. I don't like when the kind

694
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 2: of you're swept up in this mouthstrom. But at the

695
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 2: same time, that's what we were up against.

696
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,360
Speaker 1: A lot of stuff you describe as a procedural and

697
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 1: mistakes made and why he shouldn't have been convicted. Can

698
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 1: you point to something Maybe we have seen it, maybe

699
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:09,879
Speaker 1: we haven't. Maybe this will be a part of this

700
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 1: proceeding now, Like one piece of evidence that you think

701
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 1: exonerates him.

702
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 2: A couple of things that I think were just ridiculous

703
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,839
Speaker 2: that I'll never get over. One was we had done

704
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,240
Speaker 2: a demonstration. I gone out and I bought the same boat.

705
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:30,760
Speaker 2: I put one of the kids. He's not a kid anymore.

706
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 2: He's been a lawyer for seventeen years now, but back

707
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,279
Speaker 2: then he was an aspiring lawyer. I put him in

708
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 2: the boat with a dummy same weight as Lacey. I

709
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 2: tried to have him and we filmed it. Throw the

710
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:49,800
Speaker 2: dummy overboard without capsizing the boat because it made zero sense,

711
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 2: and he tried it three times and he almost drowned. Frankly,

712
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 2: it just could not do it. The judge would not

713
00:38:56,280 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 2: allow that in However, during deliberations they asked to see

714
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 2: the boat. And what's the first thing they did when

715
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 2: they asked to see the boat. The jurors and I

716
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 2: and the judge and the prosecutors all went into the

717
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 2: parking lot where they had pulled the boat in, and

718
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,280
Speaker 2: the jurors got in the boat and started rocking the boat,

719
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 2: because that was one of the first things they wanted

720
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 2: to say, is how could you have done what you

721
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 2: said you did? The prosecution theory was is the night

722
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 2: before she had gone missing, he had killed her, put

723
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 2: her in the boat, had made anchors, and had thrown

724
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 2: her overboard. It couldn't happen. And the jurors were struggling

725
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 2: with that, and sure enough got in the boat started

726
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,439
Speaker 2: rocking around. I went crazy with the judge saying, this

727
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 2: is an experiment. How can you? How can you allow this?

728
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 2: And that's one that's to give you. There was another

729
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:56,240
Speaker 2: where they let in dogs scent evidence. This may be

730
00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:00,359
Speaker 2: the greatest definition of junk science I've ever seen. They

731
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 2: had one dog that I got somehow got a hold

732
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 2: of the training videos for this dog. This dog was

733
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 2: going in every different direction during the training videos. It

734
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 2: was a complete disaster. Yet somehow the dog handler was

735
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 2: allowed to testify as to what the dog was thinking.

736
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 2: So that's the kind of quality of evidence that we

737
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 2: had here. And it was just anything goes to get

738
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,720
Speaker 2: a conviction because he was, as I may have mentioned,

739
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 2: the most hated man in America.

740
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 4: And I know you you're out of time almost But

741
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 4: why did he run and how much did that hurt him?

742
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 2: That's another and Amy I will repeat this another one

743
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:47,359
Speaker 2: of my favorite stories. People will often say why did

744
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 2: he do this? Why did you do that? And I

745
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,320
Speaker 2: will say, let me give you an example. Every morning

746
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 2: I would go to the gym and there would be

747
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 2: a and it was always white professional women, so you

748
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 2: fit the profile. So whitrofessional women would always say well,

749
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 2: why did he run? And I would say, he didn't

750
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:08,720
Speaker 2: run unless you think he was running to Canada because

751
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 2: he was arrested going north on the five Freeway. So

752
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:15,280
Speaker 2: they'd say, well, he dyed his hair and I'd say, well,

753
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 2: he did that because he was still working as a

754
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 2: fertilizer salesperson and the media kept following him to every appointment,

755
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 2: and it was extremely difficult for him to make a

756
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 2: sale to support himself with a throng of media. And

757
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,879
Speaker 2: they'd say, well, ha, he had cash. I said yes,

758
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:36,879
Speaker 2: his brother would give him cash because he didn't want

759
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:40,400
Speaker 2: to go to ATM machines. Okay. Then they'd say, well,

760
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 2: what about the fact that he had told that he

761
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 2: had told the Lacey's stepfather he'd gone fishing. I said, well,

762
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,759
Speaker 2: did you know that? Up until the trial? When I

763
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 2: asked Ron, the late Ron Granski, where were you on

764
00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 2: Christmas Eve, mister Gramski, And he said, I was fishing,

765
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 2: and so then inevitably, the white professional woman would say, well,

766
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 2: I don't care about the evidence. I used to have

767
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 2: a boyfriend just like him, and I could see him

768
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 2: doing the exact same thing. Well, how do you get it?

769
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 2: How do you get past that?

770
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I hear you.

771
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 4: You know this is going to be so fascinating to

772
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 4: see what happens over the next few months. And I

773
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 4: know you'll be on top of it all. And Mark,

774
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 4: I hope you will come back and talk about this

775
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,759
Speaker 4: with us, because you have perspective like no one else.

776
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:30,880
Speaker 4: So we thank you so much for your time and

777
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 4: for all of those details that most people will never

778
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:35,439
Speaker 4: get to hear unless they hurt him right here.

779
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 2: Okay, when I come back, Amy, we can do on

780
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 2: your podcast a description of the last time you and

781
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 2: I went bar hopping like that dog that was hitting

782
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 2: more spots than Amy. Yeah, let's talk.

783
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,240
Speaker 3: Let's let's do that first, and then we'll do the podcast.

784
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 3: It'll be a hoot.

785
00:42:51,360 --> 00:43:02,320
Speaker 2: Okay, the two things