WEBVTT - Do sin taxes work? 0:00:00.880 --> 0:00:04.280 Welcome to stuff you should know front House Stuff Works 0:00:04.320 --> 0:00:13.520 dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:17.320 There's Charles w. Chuck Bryant. Jerry's over there too, So 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:23.600 this is you should know. How you doing come fine? 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:27.280 How are you doing good? You know this one? Um, 0:00:27.440 --> 0:00:31.000 we did a podcast in June twelve, Should we have 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:35.400 a fat tax? Sure? I remember that was now that 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:38.720 I look at the timeline of uh and I'm sure 0:00:38.720 --> 0:00:42.160 we'll cover this now about Mayor Bloomberg in New York 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:45.559 in twelve. That was in May when he wanted to 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:49.440 ban the sale of soft drinks over sixteen ounces in 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:53.440 New York City. Uh. And we released in June twelve, 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:56.480 So that had to have been the impetus, right, Uh, baby, 0:00:56.560 --> 0:00:59.240 it was probably something to do with it. But the 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:04.360 difference with his two thousand and twelve push was that, um, 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:06.520 he was just trying to ban it. There was no tax. 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:10.800 It was correct. You can't have this tubs, you know, Yeah, 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:15.480 like you're drinking yourself to an early death with the sodas. 0:01:15.120 --> 0:01:19.440 There's that very famous commercial that he had where like 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:23.520 this this uh, very large man is drinking like a 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:27.399 big gulp and Michael Bloomberg steps into the frame, smacks 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:30.160 it out of the guy's hand, shoves him, turns to 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:33.720 the camera and smiles, and he's missing a front tooth. 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:40.399 What I'm just kidding. It's pretty believable, though. I was 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:42.360 with you until the tooth part, and then it was like, 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:44.320 what kind of monster would be missing in front tooth 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:50.320 at h uh? Yeah, so, um Bloomberg did try to 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:52.400 ban that, which, like you said, is different than a 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:56.200 than a syntax. But um, yeah, by the way, we're 0:01:56.200 --> 0:01:59.200 not saying s Y and T a X. It's high 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:04.400 end space T A X. That's right. And this article paints, uh, 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:08.000 one of the broadest political brushes I've seen from our 0:02:08.080 --> 0:02:13.160 articles in a long time with this sentence. Syntaxes are 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:15.720 often considered a favorite tool of liberals out to impose 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:20.520 a nanny state on freethinking individuals. Conservatives often to post 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:22.840 syntaxes on the grounds that they amount to greater government 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:26.679 intervention in people's lives. Now, let's all read some iron 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:33.200 ran It's it was just a pretty like it wasn't nuanced. No, 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:38.400 it's pretty pretty unnuanced. Remember those big plastic bats that 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:40.760 you would get with the whiffleball when you're like two, 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:44.560 so you're learning to practice baseball. It's like being hit 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:47.240 with one of those. Yeah, there's no mistaking it. It's 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:49.200 just weird one of our articles because I think that's 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:52.200 sort of the the old party line that people believe. 0:02:52.240 --> 0:02:54.080 It's just like all liberals just want to do is 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:57.720 control your life. Well, I think the author very clearly 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:01.839 sees it that way and slipped it in. I guess yeah, 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:05.079 But he also slipped in, but not all liberals think 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:10.160 this way because John Stewart thought it was ridiculous. Than that, 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:13.560 it's kind of funny. I don't remember John Stewart doing that. 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:16.520 Um do you do you remember him coming out against it? 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:19.040 I don't remember, but that doesn't surprise me. He said 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:22.560 it was draconian and would not have the proper outcome. 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:25.240 And John Stewart's pretty smart guy. Well yeah, if he 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:27.520 thinks that, then I do so he's probably one too, 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:32.000 and we'll talk a lot about this. But syntax is 0:03:32.160 --> 0:03:39.240 uh to me. The proposed outcome isn't necessarily like what 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:42.960 um ends up happening A and maybe not even what 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:45.360 they're after in the long run. Jerry's still out on 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:49.400 that you know, like you talked to some people and say, oh, no, 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:52.320 they're effective. Other people say no, they're not effective, and 0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:55.640 some people say sometimes they're effective. I think the third 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:59.240 group is probably right. Yeah, sometimes, so we should probably 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:02.600 tell people which talking about with a syntax. Syntax is 0:04:02.640 --> 0:04:07.480 a type of text that is levied against a usually 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:10.800 a good of some sort that society in general says, 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:14.120 we don't really think you should have too much of that. 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:16.200 As a matter of fact, we'd all be happier if 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:20.480 you would not use that. So we're going to have 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:27.159 our government, or go along with our government levying a text. Yes, 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:30.440 the next size text, which is a sales tax on 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:33.880 one specific type of good. Um. For example, with a 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:38.159 syntax something like tobacco or liquor or gambling, something that 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:42.240 society tends to think of as advice. Yeah, and so 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:44.760 they're saying, there's a couple of things that are being said. 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:49.400 With the syntax, it's saying, well, we want you to stop, 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:54.120 so we're gonna hit you in your pocketbook. Yeah, that's 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:57.520 a good argument. You can argue both ways. Um. And 0:04:57.560 --> 0:05:03.120 then secondly, and I think this one's a little more legitimate. Um, 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:07.400 that is costing the rest of us money in the 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:11.120 form of higher insurance rates, Like you're abusing your body, 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:17.919 we're having to pay for community hospitals. That cost of society. Yeah, 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:20.440 there's a cost of society. So if you want to 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:22.479 do this to yourself, you're gonna have to pay more 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:25.279 for it, so that we can use that money for 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:30.320 things like health care systems to fund UM, to fund this, 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:34.320 to offset the social cost that you are creating. Yeah, 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:37.080 And a lot of times there is something specifically earmarked 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:41.359 for a specific syntax, like we're gonna take the money 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:43.640 in our state from this new cigarette tax and put 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:48.160 it toward this healthcare measure. UM. And I think that 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:51.560 they like to do that more because people might get 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:54.960 behind it more if they're not, just like it'll just 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:58.560 go in the government coffers And uh, I don't know 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:01.080 how much faith there is the public at large that 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:04.920 the government spends the money wisely. Well, that's that's I mean, 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:07.039 that's a big part of it. Like if you are 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:12.040 not taking the money from a syntax and directly using 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:16.640 it to offset the social cost of whatever that vices 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:20.240 or whatever, if there is one, UM, then you're scamming 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:24.400 the general populace and you're using your shaming like a 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:28.040 segment of your populace for that, for that to that 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:31.400 end to scam everybody. Yeah, or which is not cool. 0:06:31.640 --> 0:06:36.119 Let's let's say you're not, um, want to drink soda much, 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:38.200 but every once in a while you like to get 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:41.839 out there and have a big, tall, giant, big gulp. 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:45.600 Then you're paying that tax. And some people might say, well, 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:48.480 that's not really fair because you're not contributing to any 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:52.760 social epidemics. Right. Um, we're gonna get into all this, 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:57.440 but we should point out that Bloomberg, um, he lost 0:06:57.480 --> 0:07:01.440 that war. He uh, the soda industry they you know, 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:03.640 they're not just gonna say that sounds like a great idea, mayor. 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:07.919 They fought hard. They mounted a campaign and ad campaign, 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:11.440 they mounted a legal challenge, and the Court of Appeals 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:14.880 eventually struck it down in June. So later that year 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:18.880 he said, all right, New Yorkers, you don't like to 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:22.920 be pushed around, Let's go to Berkeley, California. Yeah. Well, okay, 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:25.360 So Bloomberg is a billionaire, right sure, And he's a 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:30.840 billionaire who is exceedingly liberal. He's a very liberal billionaire. Um, 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:35.000 and he his foundation in two thousand and ten and 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:39.280 said we're going after soda. We've not just we the 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:44.040 Bloomberg Group, but the World Health Organization said soda texas 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:47.040 probably the most effective strategy of government can undertake for 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:52.160 improving the diet of the general population. UM, there's mounting 0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:56.120 evidence that what are called ss D s sb's sugar 0:07:56.160 --> 0:08:02.240 sweetened beverages are they lead to increased weight gain and 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:09.400 other um co morbid health outcomes like diabetes and are 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:14.520 basically they're they're becoming the central focus of a lot 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:18.960 of um negative publicity. A lot of people are saying 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:23.200 these things are are around the nexus of a lot 0:08:23.280 --> 0:08:27.360 of really bad chronic health conditions. It's these sodas right, 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:30.400 and so much so that there was this really great 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:35.240 Guardian article that was written by Tina Rosenberg and she 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:37.640 puts it, soda is on the verge of becoming the 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:43.359 liquid cigarette. And in part because of Bloomberg and his 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:48.040 his foundation, what would that make the East cigarette? East 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:52.880 cigarette is the new cigar? Uh? Yeah, soda is one 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:58.000 that it's easy to go after because UM, childhood obesity 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:01.720 and kids that you about stories about kids like going 0:09:01.760 --> 0:09:05.160 through like a leader or a two leader of sugary 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:08.760 sweet soda a day in these you know, just ridiculous 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:11.840 amounts of sugar intake that any reasonable person would say, like, 0:09:11.880 --> 0:09:16.480 you can't drink that much sugar right well and expect 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:20.520 to like not have like huge consequences. The UK has 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:24.120 a sugar text on the books that's proposed to take 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:28.080 effect next year, and I was reading a BBC article 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:30.360 on it and they had like this little pole thing 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:34.160 comparison thirty five grams of sugar and a can of 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:39.680 Coca cola. Thirty grams is the maximum that the UK 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:43.680 suggests it's children or people eleven years or older have 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:46.800 a day. And so if you drink one cannon coke, 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:50.080 you're automatically having more then you're supposed to have in 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:53.160 one day as far as like a normal diets concerned 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:56.200 and who just drinks one can of coke? You know, Well, 0:09:57.440 --> 0:09:59.520 so what we're do you really Well, I don't even 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:01.800 drink and we've talked about this before. I rarely ever 0:10:01.880 --> 0:10:04.800 drink soda, that's true. You're drinking water right now, yeah, 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:08.320 And it's just it's not an effort to not drink 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:11.319 sugar water. It's just sort of the way I was raised. 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:12.720 We didn't have a lot of sodas in the house, 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:15.400 drank a lot of water. I still love water. It's 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:19.960 good stuff, that's right, it is. And as a sweater too, 0:10:20.080 --> 0:10:23.840 that's what I need water. Yeah, so I can sweat more. 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:29.720 It's just a system. It's called the closed loop. He's swallowing. Yeah. 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:32.560 Uh so, I feel like about eight minutes ago, I 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:36.520 said something about going to Berkeley. Um. So Bloomberg went 0:10:36.559 --> 0:10:40.040 to Berkeley later in fourteen after he was rebuffed in 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:42.280 New York and said, New Yorkers don't like to be 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:46.520 shoved around. Let's go out west where all these Berkeley 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:48.839 hippies will surely be down with this kind of thing. 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:51.640 And let's uh, instead of trying to ban it, let's 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:54.520 try and get a syntax an exercise tax i pose 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:59.640 and uh. He was very successful there. There was um. Obviously, 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:02.480 the the uh soda industry they're tried to fight back 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:05.120 as well, to the tune of about close to two 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:09.360 million bucks uh in a campaign against it, But voters said, yes, 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:13.640 we like the syntax uh, to the tune of how 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:17.560 much is it a penny? An an ounce ye that 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:21.800 could be substantial. Coke used to be what like a dollar. 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:24.120 I don't even know now, it would be a dollar twenty, 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:26.480 that's right, you know, I mean, yeah, that could be substantial, 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:29.560 especially if you're talking two leader, three leader. It's getting 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:33.120 into the area where you would start to see an 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:35.319 impact from it. Yeah, that's the way to do it. Though, 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:38.520 I gotta say, instead of just like you know, a 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:42.240 flat tax across the board, they're literally saying, like, the 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:44.640 more you drink of this stuff, the more you will pay. Right, 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:48.760 It's a negative. It's a disincentive to buy that product, 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:55.360 which again society or the government or somebody has deemed unhealthy. Right, 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:59.040 And in that case, uh, in Berkeley at least, you 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:00.680 know that what they need to do is look at 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:03.720 this stuff long term. But in the short term, um, 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:06.880 over five months after the tax, they saw that, um 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:09.600 this is the American Journal of Public Health. They found 0:12:09.600 --> 0:12:14.960 that low income and minority residents of Berkeley drink less 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:19.800 soda than before, but in San Francisco nearby consumption went 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:26.360 up by four percent. That's a pretty significant study. Yeah, 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:29.240 five months though, Like, well, that's the problem. Like, look 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:31.680 at it long term, I think is what the because 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:34.680 maybe initially people will stop and then they'll go back 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:37.040 to it. Maybe right, But why did San Francisco's go 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:39.480 up for people like leaving Berkeley to go get their 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:43.400 soda thicks? Maybe, I mean, that's entirely possible. I don't know. 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:45.560 I don't think you would. The money you would spend 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:48.240 going back and forth to San Francisco is unless you 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:51.480 just went and bought like a truckload of cases of soda. Yeah. 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:53.480 If that's the case, then you got you know, there 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:55.920 are other issues in your life. Consider like even just 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:59.439 the people who live near the border close enough. Yeah, 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:02.360 where on the way home they're stopping or during their 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:04.960 day they're stopping in San Francisco, just on the border 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:09.520 getting a coke. That would raise consumption in San Francisco. Uh, 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:13.120 Coke and the other companies might say, hey, um, we 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:16.480 need to divert all the stock that was gonna go 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:19.439 to Berkeley over to San Francisco and maybe spend a 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:23.440 little more on advertising there. I could raise consumption. I 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:25.959 guess so. But you make a very valid point. I'm 0:13:25.960 --> 0:13:29.200 not disagreeing with you. That jury is very much still 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:31.720 out on whether soda taxes actually do work in the 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:34.520 long term, And then even more is we'll see whether 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:39.840 they have the impact and effects that are supposedly desired. Yeah, well, 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:45.280 let's take a little breather and we will go uh huddle, 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:50.800 not puddle, huddle, huddle, pittle from all all the water 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:55.040 we've been thinking. Uh, people say that about their dogs, 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:57.280 like he pittled. I think that's just a cute way 0:13:57.280 --> 0:14:00.240 of saying he beat it right, takes a stay out 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:02.240 of it a bit a little. But also I think 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:05.600 the peddle. I think a pile is just a little squirt. Yes, 0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:08.400 but it's usually also a company with like a I'm 0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:12.920 nervous or I'm scared or something, so I'm peddling. Well 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:16.040 that's a weird segue. So we'll go uh pittle and 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:18.560 talk about a little history of this when we get back. 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:50.200 All Right, we both got excited the book Pittle piddle 0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:53.280 a little bit. Jerry mopped it up, piddled it a little. Yeah, 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:59.200 she was so um scornful though. Yeah, that's all right. Uh, alright, 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:02.160 so history WI, this is nothing new, And this is 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:04.840 a stat that I didn't know for about fifty years 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:09.320 in the late eighteen hundreds to early nineteen hundreds, until 0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:13.840 n of our revenue in the United States came from 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:19.120 taxing booze and beer, smokes wine. I feel like we 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:25.760 talked about then in the customs episode tariffs episode. Did 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:31.640 we do a tariff episode? We talked about tariffs in customs. Yeah. Yeah, 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:34.400 I'm pretty sure that it's a large share of your 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:37.000 taxes though, coming from syntax, right. And as a matter 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:40.840 of fact, the first tax on a domestic product levied 0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:43.800 by the United States was on It was a syntax. 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:47.000 It was a tax on whiskey or on distilled liquor, 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:50.000 the famous whiskey tax that led to the even famous 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:53.240 for whiskey rebellion, which led even famous her to the 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:58.560 Whiskey Hangover Whiskey Rebellion hangover. Uh So, in nineteen thirteen, 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:01.960 that all change when the United States said, you know 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:05.040 what we should do. We should people are making money now, 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:08.680 we should tax their income because the more they make, 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:10.680 the more successful they are, the more that we can 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:13.320 get until they get to a point where they can 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:17.600 get away from paying taxes. Sure they're so rich, and people, wait, 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:20.400 how does that work? They went, Oh, you wait, they said, 0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:23.320 forget the supply side, We'll go to the demand side 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:26.720 to tax. And from that moment on, the United States 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:30.840 never collected a scent in Texas from another company. Again 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:37.840 the end so um. But the point is syntaxas are 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:43.960 most major source of government revenue up until right, which 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:47.280 is a little ironic, I guess considering our history as 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:52.360 a country. Yeah, it is. But what's weird is it's 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:56.480 it's the syntax actually goes back really far. There's a 0:16:56.600 --> 0:17:02.720 lot of governments and throughout history that have collected syntaxes um, 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:06.399 for all sorts of different reasons. Um. And then they 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:10.240 also used to take the form of something called sumptuary laws. Yes, 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:15.639 so sumptuary laws were basically rather than taxing. It was 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:18.520 kind of like what Bloomberg was trying to do by 0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:21.959 just outlowing outlowing so it all together, but rather than 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:26.760 necessarily being a moral thing, usually sumptuary laws were meant 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:30.280 to keep class distinctions intact. Yeah, like you know, the 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:37.000 word sumptuous expensive looking. It was a way to restrain extravagance. Um. 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:39.440 And like you said, uh, And they use Elizabeth the 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:42.040 First in this article, which was a good example because 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:45.239 she was big on those. And you know, it's kind 0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:46.520 of like I don't want how am I going to 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:50.880 tell the difference between my subjects if they're dressing all 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:53.160 fancy now and thinking they're all that. Yeah, I don't 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:56.800 want to accidentally talk to a commoner pretty much. Uh, 0:17:56.840 --> 0:17:58.679 And I looked into these a little bit. Apparently they 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:02.199 were not very ready enforced. Um. If they were, it 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:05.280 was usually because of a specific complaint that someone would 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:09.080 bring against, like their neighbor or something. They're wearing fancy shoes. Yeah, 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:12.800 pretty much. It wasn't like super police. But they made 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:16.840 a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Hey, that's 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:20.760 just good old fashioned ingenuity. Um. When you open it, it 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:26.720 it moves. But apparently that when these young men would 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:29.680 enter London, they would sometimes their swords would be measured, 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:32.639 and if their swords were too long, they would break 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:35.359 them because that was a sign of extravagance. If you 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:39.199 had some big, flashy sword. It's not a euphemism, right, 0:18:39.320 --> 0:18:44.840 you're talking about a sword. I don't think, so weird 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:49.040 and gross. So even in this country, the sumptuary laws 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:55.399 um almost made an appearance. I think in the puritan 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:59.560 Um codes there may have been some sumptory laws, but 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:03.520 in the Ated States itself, George Mason during the Constitutional 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:07.239 Convention said, hey, let's get some sumptuary laws. They've been 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:10.520 done for centuries already, they work. Let's just keep it going. 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:16.440 But Mason's aim wasn't to um keep class distinctions. He 0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:19.840 wanted to basically say, hey, here's how you guys conduct 0:19:19.880 --> 0:19:23.920 yourselves the way we say where the US government. Don't 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:28.000 flashy because don't be flashy, don't be um, don't waste 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:31.720 your money, don't drink too much. So so rather than 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:36.200 saying like we're going to tax your whiskey, you who 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:39.960 produced whiskey, We'll just go and say you, you know, you, 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:44.080 member of the public, you can only have like a 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:47.359 pine of whiskey a day, and anything beyond that you 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:49.440 will throw you in jail for That would be a 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:52.920 sumptuary law. But the the other guys in the Constitutional 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:55.159 Convention said no, no, no, no. I think one of 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:58.520 them very famously said, um, the law of necessity is 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:02.800 the greatest sumptuary law. Meaning if you tax people, they're 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:05.880 not going to be able to afford it anyway. Plus you, 0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:09.200 the government, get the money, So why be a jerk 0:20:09.200 --> 0:20:11.840 and just outlaw it. Just throw a big old tax 0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:14.879 on it, and everybody wins except for the poor loser 0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:17.439 he's having to cough up this much more stuff to 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:24.080 to kill himself. Yeah, forget laws up with taxes which 0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:25.680 had been you know, like we talked about a long 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:29.480 history and in the seventeen sixty four we uh, we're 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:32.320 subject to a sugar tax, which kind of had a 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:35.840 twofold purpose. One was, Hey, anything that we can do 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:41.080 to make the king richer great, uh and be you know, 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:45.960 we know what you're doing with that sugar. You're making 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:48.600 rum and you're getting too drunk, and we don't like 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:51.400 that either. So instead of a sumptuary law there, let 0:20:51.400 --> 0:20:54.399 me just tax your sugar. And do you remember we 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:58.040 talked about swilling the planters with bumbo? Yeah, like that 0:20:58.119 --> 0:21:02.199 was just election day. People used to drink in the 0:21:02.280 --> 0:21:06.400 United States. Yeah, not like now, No, not like now. 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:09.080 I know I was being facetious, but that is true. 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:12.480 People like everyone was drunk back then. Yeah, there was 0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:14.639 written no reason not to be. No, it was a 0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:18.280 hard life for everybody. You weren't driving around, no, you 0:21:18.400 --> 0:21:22.480 were you were in like weird pants. Yeah, there's a 0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:25.800 lot to You had a lot of reason to drink. Yeah, 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:27.360 you could just get on your horse, and your horse 0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:35.080 knows where to go, skipper, skipper knows where to go 0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:38.719 it was a weird neighbor hors. So do these syntaxis 0:21:38.720 --> 0:21:40.760 actually work? Is the question? Well, yeah, that is the 0:21:40.760 --> 0:21:46.520 big question. So um, oh we don't know, you. I mean, 0:21:46.560 --> 0:21:49.480 it can work for sure. We actually with with this 0:21:49.560 --> 0:21:53.119 is I thought this was a very Um this article 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:57.520 confused me here there because it seemed to be making 0:21:57.560 --> 0:22:01.600 its own argument rather than reporting the arguments, which I 0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:06.040 found like hard to follow. And then secondly it just 0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:09.280 kind of wove all over the place right as far 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:12.240 as that argument went. But I think what I'm getting 0:22:12.359 --> 0:22:16.800 is with the soda tax, that specific kind of syntax, 0:22:17.280 --> 0:22:22.959 which is the syntax doujure of the century right now. Um, 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:25.840 and I've just said the syntax of the day of 0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:31.040 the century, which is a little weird. Um, the jury 0:22:31.160 --> 0:22:33.919 is very much still out like a few countries of 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:36.800 tax soda, but they also tax like mineral water and 0:22:36.840 --> 0:22:40.159 diet soda. So there's no way to study whether that 0:22:40.240 --> 0:22:43.400 actually works. As far as like health outcomes and things. Yeah, 0:22:43.480 --> 0:22:45.160 I mean there's a few different ways to say whether 0:22:45.240 --> 0:22:47.520 or not it works, because there's threefold It's like, can 0:22:47.560 --> 0:22:51.479 we improve health outcome, can we raise money? Yes, in 0:22:51.480 --> 0:22:56.480 that case it always works. Right, and UM and C 0:22:57.160 --> 0:23:00.919 or three started with three p o um man, this 0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:04.919 is falling off the rail. Uh and see does it 0:23:05.080 --> 0:23:09.560 help the public at large? UM. In the case of Mexico, 0:23:09.880 --> 0:23:13.560 they a couple of years ago imposed to soda tax 0:23:14.160 --> 0:23:18.199 um because Bloomberg spending ten million dollars. That surprised me, 0:23:18.720 --> 0:23:22.399 but that was a good place to do it because apparently, UM, 0:23:24.160 --> 0:23:28.680 Mexico was nuts for sugar sweetened beverages. Yeah, and sort 0:23:28.720 --> 0:23:31.360 of junkie food and sugary beverages. I think it has 0:23:31.400 --> 0:23:33.800 a reputation for sure as being a problem. And I 0:23:33.800 --> 0:23:35.639 think in two thousand and six there was like a 0:23:36.000 --> 0:23:39.879 nationwide health report basically like a study of Mexico and 0:23:39.920 --> 0:23:41.720 they were finding like it was on its way to 0:23:41.800 --> 0:23:45.000 becoming like the fattest country in the world. And UM 0:23:45.080 --> 0:23:47.600 they were like, well this, this is definitely opening our eyes. 0:23:47.600 --> 0:23:51.679 And that kind of planted the seed for Bloomberg's a 0:23:51.720 --> 0:23:53.960 group to come in and a few years later and 0:23:53.960 --> 0:23:57.560 spend ten million on a campaign against soda. I've seen 0:23:57.600 --> 0:23:59.919 I mean, have you been to Mexico. I've seen it, 0:24:00.280 --> 0:24:03.520 you know, in person, Like it was a notice. It 0:24:03.600 --> 0:24:06.719 was noticeable to me the amount of people drinking soda 0:24:07.080 --> 0:24:09.320 just right out there in front of people. They weren't 0:24:09.320 --> 0:24:13.760 even trying to hide it. I'm kidding of course. Um 0:24:13.800 --> 0:24:17.280 so is when I guess Bloomberg was successful there, they 0:24:17.280 --> 0:24:19.920 had to pay so per leader tax and an eight 0:24:19.960 --> 0:24:23.640 percent tax on junk food and apparently both of those 0:24:23.720 --> 0:24:28.560 consumption of both went down a lot because of that tax. Um. 0:24:28.600 --> 0:24:31.120 But like I said, so wait, there's one there's one 0:24:31.240 --> 0:24:35.879 thing that consumption can decrease as a result. Right, What 0:24:35.960 --> 0:24:38.960 they don't know is the long term health outcome, because 0:24:39.800 --> 0:24:42.560 that's just one thing that can lead to poor health 0:24:42.640 --> 0:24:46.080 in your future, is a sugary drink. Well, so that 0:24:46.320 --> 0:24:52.359 to me smacks of like soda industry like obfuscation, well 0:24:52.400 --> 0:24:54.480 in a way, but it's true. It is true. But 0:24:54.560 --> 0:24:57.280 apparently in Mexico, the battle that's being fought by the 0:24:57.320 --> 0:25:04.760 soda industry is, um, hey man, don't don't don't text us. 0:25:04.800 --> 0:25:07.760 That's that you got it all wrong. Text the cheeseburger people, 0:25:08.440 --> 0:25:12.240 get them. Uh, and the cheeseburger people like what we're 0:25:12.480 --> 0:25:15.919 standing over here being quiet the pork rind people right. 0:25:16.359 --> 0:25:19.120