WEBVTT - What Will It Take? 0:00:15.250 --> 0:00:27.810 Pushkin, you're listening to Brave New Planet, a podcast about 0:00:27.850 --> 0:00:32.010 amazing new technologies that could dramatically improve our world, or 0:00:32.410 --> 0:00:34.970 if we don't make wise choices, could leave us a 0:00:34.970 --> 0:00:39.610 lot worse off. Utopia or dystopia. It's up to us. 0:00:47.530 --> 0:00:52.010 On Saturday, November seventh, two and twenty, hundreds of millions 0:00:52.010 --> 0:00:54.890 of people finally got an answer to a question that 0:00:54.970 --> 0:00:58.450 had consumed them for more than eight weeks of balloting 0:00:58.690 --> 0:01:02.010 and four days of vote counting, who would lead the 0:01:02.090 --> 0:01:05.330 United States of America for the next four years. At 0:01:05.370 --> 0:01:09.210 eleven twenty four am Eastern Time, CNN called the president 0:01:09.370 --> 0:01:12.650 election for Joe Biden and his running mate Kamala Harris. 0:01:13.250 --> 0:01:18.210 Within twenty minutes, every major network followed suit. The race 0:01:18.650 --> 0:01:22.890 was over. But even as one question was answered, another 0:01:23.130 --> 0:01:27.170 still loomed large. Well America now finally be able to 0:01:27.170 --> 0:01:30.770 move forward and tackle the hard problems facing the country 0:01:30.890 --> 0:01:41.370 and the world. My name is Eric Lander, and I'm 0:01:41.370 --> 0:01:45.050 the host of Brave New Planet. When we began planning 0:01:45.050 --> 0:01:47.650 the seven episodes of Brave New Planet more than a 0:01:47.730 --> 0:01:50.970 year ago, I never imagined we'd be wrapping up in 0:01:51.010 --> 0:01:55.090 the days just after a presidential election. We'd originally planned 0:01:55.090 --> 0:01:58.370 to complete and release this series in spring twenty twenty, 0:01:58.930 --> 0:02:02.770 but as with so many things, those plans were upended 0:02:02.810 --> 0:02:07.130 by the pandemic. Somehow, though, the timings turned out to 0:02:07.130 --> 0:02:10.970 be fitting Brave New Plant. And it's about amazing science 0:02:10.970 --> 0:02:16.410 and technology that also poses hard challenges, But it's also 0:02:16.490 --> 0:02:18.810 about how we're going to need to come together and 0:02:18.970 --> 0:02:24.130 work together to make wise choices in many areas. Yes, 0:02:24.490 --> 0:02:28.130 scientific problems, from the current pandemic to climate change, but 0:02:28.250 --> 0:02:34.090 also societal problems from economic security to racial justice. Brave 0:02:34.130 --> 0:02:37.850 New Planet has tried to show smart, thoughtful, passionate people 0:02:38.250 --> 0:02:41.050 who agree on the facts and even agree on the 0:02:41.090 --> 0:02:47.050 societal goals, but who disagree on solutions. Yet nonetheless they 0:02:47.090 --> 0:02:52.050 grapple with complex problems, argue with respect, occasionally even change 0:02:52.090 --> 0:02:55.730 their minds, and make some progress even where there are 0:02:55.850 --> 0:03:00.450 no easy answers. To my mind, it's the only path forward. 0:03:01.610 --> 0:03:05.530 Brave New Planet's mission is to invite everyone into these conversations. 0:03:06.730 --> 0:03:10.770 So today's big question, what's it going to take to 0:03:10.810 --> 0:03:14.010 do more of this as a society, to find common 0:03:14.050 --> 0:03:19.290 ground on goals and argue productively about solutions. As I 0:03:19.330 --> 0:03:22.570 thought about this question, it occurred to me that scientists 0:03:22.890 --> 0:03:26.290 aren't the only people who spend their days gathering information 0:03:26.690 --> 0:03:31.090 to try to help society solve problems. Journalists do too, 0:03:31.690 --> 0:03:34.250 So I thought that a conversation between a scientist and 0:03:34.330 --> 0:03:38.370 a journalist about the common challenges we face might be enlightening. 0:03:39.170 --> 0:03:43.530 I reached out to journalist Nila Boodoo. NILA's worked for Reuters, 0:03:43.610 --> 0:03:46.770 the Miami Herald, and in public radio, where she's hosted 0:03:46.770 --> 0:03:51.770 shows on WBEZ Chicago. Now she's the host of Axios Today, 0:03:52.210 --> 0:03:57.170 a new daily morning news podcast. Nila Boodoo, Welcome to 0:03:57.330 --> 0:04:00.610 Brave New Planet. Hi, Eric, thank you so much for 0:04:00.650 --> 0:04:02.970 having me. It's a pleasure to be here. Oh, it's 0:04:03.010 --> 0:04:06.610 great to have you. So, Nila, I'd love to start 0:04:06.690 --> 0:04:10.650 with how scientists and journalists can with the public, At 0:04:10.730 --> 0:04:13.850 least in science, I think there's often a real problem 0:04:14.250 --> 0:04:18.410 with humility and trust. You know. For example, when scientists 0:04:18.530 --> 0:04:20.650 talk about what do we have to do to make 0:04:20.690 --> 0:04:24.130 progress on problems, one of the first things people suggest 0:04:24.450 --> 0:04:28.010 is more science education. That doesn't get me wrong, I'm 0:04:28.050 --> 0:04:32.010 not opposed to more science education. I teach. I love it, 0:04:32.330 --> 0:04:35.890 But I think there's an underlying assumption there that the 0:04:35.930 --> 0:04:39.530 problem is that people are just ignorant, that if they 0:04:39.690 --> 0:04:43.650 just got more science education, they'd know the facts or 0:04:43.690 --> 0:04:46.690 accept the facts and fall in line with the solutions. 0:04:47.210 --> 0:04:49.930 And I don't think that's the right place to start. 0:04:50.170 --> 0:04:54.130 I mean, scientists do spend their days swimming around in facts, 0:04:54.690 --> 0:04:57.210 but I don't think that's a reason to be looking 0:04:57.290 --> 0:05:00.450 down on people. I think there's ever a reason to 0:05:00.490 --> 0:05:02.890 be looking down on people. It's not a good posture. 0:05:03.210 --> 0:05:04.970 We might have been able to get away with it 0:05:05.050 --> 0:05:09.370 in the science of the nineteen fifties and sixties. You know, 0:05:09.410 --> 0:05:13.410 the authority of scientists in the White Lab Code or something, 0:05:13.850 --> 0:05:16.890 but scientists don't have a monopoly on the insights that 0:05:16.930 --> 0:05:19.770 are going to matter. I think, you know, we have 0:05:19.810 --> 0:05:23.290 to go in feeling we got something really important to contribute, 0:05:23.770 --> 0:05:27.610 but it's only part of the puzzle. Yeah, I'm wondering, Nilot, 0:05:27.610 --> 0:05:30.850 do you see that same issue in journalism? Well, I 0:05:30.850 --> 0:05:32.530 think it's the same thing you said, right, Like, so 0:05:32.570 --> 0:05:35.210 you said that, you know the idea that scientists in 0:05:35.250 --> 0:05:38.010 the nineteen fifties or sixties or whatever, there's this idea 0:05:38.050 --> 0:05:39.730 that scientists where its sort of the end all be 0:05:39.850 --> 0:05:43.210 all of information. Journalists were like that too right. We 0:05:43.530 --> 0:05:46.650 used to think that we were in charge of broadcasting 0:05:46.690 --> 0:05:49.450 out the information to people, and I think, certainly in 0:05:49.490 --> 0:05:51.730 my career as a journalist, we've seen that shift. With 0:05:51.770 --> 0:05:54.370 the advent of social media the way that information flows, 0:05:54.970 --> 0:05:57.290 journalists play a role. I think journalists play a very 0:05:57.330 --> 0:06:03.090 important role in moderating, in sifting through, in amplifying voices 0:06:03.370 --> 0:06:06.250 that don't have an opportunity to do that. But we 0:06:06.330 --> 0:06:08.330 are not the source of I mean, we do not 0:06:08.370 --> 0:06:11.050 broadcast information out to people anymore. And I think when 0:06:11.050 --> 0:06:13.890 you talk about trust, which is a really important thing 0:06:13.930 --> 0:06:16.930 that comes up in journalism, do people trust what we do? 0:06:17.410 --> 0:06:19.250 I think a major reason why a lot of people 0:06:19.290 --> 0:06:23.250 don't trust what journalists do is because of the way 0:06:23.250 --> 0:06:25.250 that we go about doing it, and I think not 0:06:25.330 --> 0:06:27.570 having a humble attitude. Now, I will say, when you 0:06:27.570 --> 0:06:30.810 look at the data about this, people don't trust the media. 0:06:30.890 --> 0:06:32.850 And first of all, I will start with the premise, 0:06:32.890 --> 0:06:35.170 I'm not quite sure what the media is. So I 0:06:35.290 --> 0:06:37.570 always say that first, like that's kind of my first 0:06:37.570 --> 0:06:40.210 phrase to everyone is what is this media? I'm not 0:06:40.250 --> 0:06:42.490 sure what you mean? And when you break it down, 0:06:42.610 --> 0:06:45.970 I think people who have relationships, for example, with local journalists. 0:06:46.930 --> 0:06:52.130 Those institutions score very high. People trust those local institutions, 0:06:52.250 --> 0:06:56.770 local journalists as accurate and credible sources of information. I 0:06:56.810 --> 0:06:58.730 think when you look at the national level, that's where 0:06:58.770 --> 0:07:01.210 you see more of a breakdown. What do you think 0:07:01.250 --> 0:07:03.850 about that question of trust? I wonder how important that 0:07:04.050 --> 0:07:08.090 is as well when we're thinking about journalism and in 0:07:08.130 --> 0:07:13.210 your case science. Oh boy, So look, trust, I think 0:07:13.290 --> 0:07:15.450 is the next layer up over humility. You got to 0:07:15.450 --> 0:07:18.690 come in with a humble attitude. But what do we 0:07:18.730 --> 0:07:23.210 mean by trust the scientists. There's maybe two kinds of 0:07:23.290 --> 0:07:28.930 trust that are worth distinguishing between this kind of blind trust, 0:07:29.490 --> 0:07:34.570 that nineteen fifties nineteen sixties thing of just deferred to 0:07:34.690 --> 0:07:38.210 me as the scientist because I know better than you. 0:07:39.250 --> 0:07:42.450 I think there's actually instead a different kind of trust, 0:07:42.490 --> 0:07:46.370 and I might call it like earned trust. Earned trust 0:07:46.490 --> 0:07:49.850 is I'm going to be if I'm the scientist or 0:07:49.890 --> 0:07:53.130 the doctor. I'm going to be transparent about the evidence 0:07:53.170 --> 0:07:56.970 we have. I'll tell you why I believe things, and 0:07:57.370 --> 0:08:01.090 every bit is important. I'm going to be transparent about 0:08:01.170 --> 0:08:05.290 what we don't know. I don't trust people who don't 0:08:05.410 --> 0:08:08.690 say I don't know. Some of the time, I don't 0:08:08.730 --> 0:08:11.890 trust people who can't explain to me why they believe 0:08:11.970 --> 0:08:17.090 the things they believe. So I think we are shifting 0:08:17.090 --> 0:08:20.530 and maybe it's true for journalism as well, but certainly 0:08:20.570 --> 0:08:24.890 in science, to the idea that people should be asking questions, 0:08:24.970 --> 0:08:28.490 they should be probing, and if scientists should bring doubt 0:08:28.490 --> 0:08:32.090 about other people's results in evidence, why shouldn't the general 0:08:32.130 --> 0:08:35.730 public bring doubt. But again, it's worth distinguishing two kinds 0:08:35.770 --> 0:08:40.010 of doubt. There's kind of the cynical doubt. I just 0:08:40.090 --> 0:08:43.330 don't trust this science stuff. You know, the diet studies 0:08:43.450 --> 0:08:46.690 keep contradicting each other, or you can't trust science because 0:08:46.730 --> 0:08:49.130 they can't make up their minds, And I think that's 0:08:49.290 --> 0:08:53.650 a very cynical, nehalistic kind of doubt. I think there's 0:08:53.770 --> 0:08:56.050 a kind of doubt that I would love to see 0:08:56.090 --> 0:09:00.130 more of, which is empowered doubt. I'm not going to 0:09:00.210 --> 0:09:03.450 believe you until you give me the evidence, show me 0:09:03.610 --> 0:09:07.610 hard evidence. So that's the kind of empowered doubt that 0:09:08.490 --> 0:09:11.370 you know, we want to have because that gets people 0:09:11.850 --> 0:09:14.970 like properly at the table as peers in this thing. 0:09:15.890 --> 0:09:20.610 I fantasize about, you know, how the FDA might go 0:09:20.770 --> 0:09:26.930 through its drug approval process for coronavirus vaccines. Just this week, 0:09:27.050 --> 0:09:30.850 Feisser issued a press release saying it had really positive 0:09:30.890 --> 0:09:35.090 results from its vaccine trial, and the press release didn't 0:09:35.130 --> 0:09:37.330 have a lot of details, which was, you know, some 0:09:37.370 --> 0:09:39.690 people noted and they're gonna have to come forward with 0:09:39.730 --> 0:09:42.490 those details. But I'm imagining how do we get the 0:09:42.530 --> 0:09:46.090 country involved in the drug approval process. And so you 0:09:46.130 --> 0:09:50.050 can imagine like a Reddit Ama where you know, the 0:09:50.050 --> 0:09:53.490 country's sending in questions and folks at the other side, 0:09:53.570 --> 0:09:56.890 maybe both the drug company and the FDA are trying 0:09:56.890 --> 0:09:59.050 to answer them. And now I don't I don't know 0:09:59.090 --> 0:10:01.130 all effects. I'll just make this up, so don't don't 0:10:01.170 --> 0:10:03.850 take these numbers to be exactly right, but it might 0:10:03.890 --> 0:10:07.570 go something like this. The company starts by saying, well, 0:10:07.610 --> 0:10:10.810 we ran a clinical trial with forty thousand people and 0:10:11.370 --> 0:10:14.770 half got the vaccine and half got a placebo, and 0:10:14.810 --> 0:10:19.690 then we waited until ninety five people had gotten infected 0:10:19.810 --> 0:10:23.210 and shown symptoms. And we looked and we found that 0:10:23.490 --> 0:10:26.010 ninety out of those ninety five people were people who 0:10:26.090 --> 0:10:29.050 got the placebo, and only five of them were people 0:10:29.050 --> 0:10:31.810 who got the vaccine. And so it looks like the 0:10:31.930 --> 0:10:34.690 vaccine is doing a pretty good job of protecting people. 0:10:35.610 --> 0:10:38.090 But then people will write in and they'll say, okay, well, 0:10:38.130 --> 0:10:41.130 tell me what do you know about elderly people, people 0:10:41.130 --> 0:10:44.490 over seventy did they get protection? What about men? What 0:10:44.610 --> 0:10:49.250 about people who have serious health complications? How long is 0:10:49.290 --> 0:10:53.850 this protection gonna last? And are there side effects? Some 0:10:54.010 --> 0:10:56.930 of the times the answers are going to be we 0:10:57.130 --> 0:10:59.930 just don't know. We haven't got enough data yet, we 0:11:00.010 --> 0:11:04.210 haven't run long enough to see how long protection might last. 0:11:05.130 --> 0:11:08.490 I think people are smartan they can take the information 0:11:08.530 --> 0:11:11.250 what we know and what we don't know, and make 0:11:11.290 --> 0:11:13.810 decisions based on that. So I think that's really the 0:11:13.850 --> 0:11:18.370 foundation of trust. Earn trust is to be direct and 0:11:18.410 --> 0:11:21.730 transparent about what we know and what we don't know. Yeah, 0:11:21.730 --> 0:11:24.610 so do you think the credibility then you sort of 0:11:24.610 --> 0:11:27.450 build the credibility and trust with the government regulator and 0:11:27.450 --> 0:11:31.490 in having for example, the CDC or the FDA be 0:11:31.810 --> 0:11:35.970 incredibly transparent about the whole process. Well, the government is 0:11:36.010 --> 0:11:38.570 here to represent the people, and it's got to do 0:11:38.650 --> 0:11:42.530 that job in a way that actually works. Given the 0:11:42.730 --> 0:11:46.890 tensions around all these things and skepticism that has occurred 0:11:46.930 --> 0:11:50.650 and conflicts, I think the more transparent we can be, 0:11:50.730 --> 0:11:53.770 the more that we earn trust. So I think transparency 0:11:53.850 --> 0:11:56.370 is one thing, but then also the actual message and 0:11:56.410 --> 0:12:00.210 the knowledge, because I think oftentimes we tend to see 0:12:00.250 --> 0:12:03.570 this as a binary choice of it either has to 0:12:03.610 --> 0:12:08.010 be simple and easy to understand, or it's we're going 0:12:08.050 --> 0:12:10.730 to get the full information and it's complex. This is 0:12:10.770 --> 0:12:14.130 inherently the problem I think with science communication, and this 0:12:14.170 --> 0:12:16.850 is something as a journalist we struggle with. How do 0:12:16.970 --> 0:12:19.770 you distill something down into a way in my case 0:12:19.810 --> 0:12:22.210 that someone is just hearing it, so they're not even 0:12:22.210 --> 0:12:24.730 going to read it, they just hear it. How much 0:12:24.770 --> 0:12:28.130 can they really take in at that point? Well, it's interesting. 0:12:28.130 --> 0:12:32.850 I think Axeos talks about sort of smart brevity. Yeah, 0:12:32.890 --> 0:12:36.970 that's a thing. So I think communication is a really 0:12:37.010 --> 0:12:40.770 important thing, and in general science has not mastered the 0:12:40.890 --> 0:12:46.570 art of communication. Putting things in such complete detail that 0:12:46.810 --> 0:12:51.010 they're incomprehensible is not very helpful. I don't know how 0:12:51.050 --> 0:12:54.570 often you take the package insert out of a drug 0:12:55.010 --> 0:12:57.970 and read that big thin piece of paper when you 0:12:58.130 --> 0:13:01.410 unfolded and look at all of the background data on 0:13:01.490 --> 0:13:04.490 this drug. But I bet you know, maybe that's as 0:13:04.530 --> 0:13:07.010 often as you read the click license on a piece 0:13:07.050 --> 0:13:09.690 of software. Actually, you know what I was going to say. 0:13:09.770 --> 0:13:12.370 My mother's a pharmacist, So I just ask her. And actually, 0:13:12.410 --> 0:13:15.090 that I think is the key, Right I ask someone 0:13:15.130 --> 0:13:18.010 who I know has the knowledge and I trust, and 0:13:18.050 --> 0:13:21.330 I think she will distill it down for me. So 0:13:21.450 --> 0:13:25.170 your mother plays the role of good scientific communication and 0:13:25.250 --> 0:13:28.810 good journalistic communication. And the problem is most people don't 0:13:28.890 --> 0:13:33.170 have your mother, And so how do we manage to 0:13:33.250 --> 0:13:38.210 get things clear without pulling the wool over anybody's eyes 0:13:38.250 --> 0:13:43.530 without oversimplifying? Albert Einstein famously said, and it's one of 0:13:43.570 --> 0:13:47.450 the things I quote very often. Everything should be made 0:13:47.450 --> 0:13:53.930 as simple as possible, but not simpler, finding that happy 0:13:54.530 --> 0:14:00.170 medium of saying there is nothing about this vaccine approval 0:14:00.770 --> 0:14:05.930 or many other things that can't be explained clearly without oversimplifying. 0:14:06.730 --> 0:14:12.170 I think communicating with honesty and clarity is the heart 0:14:12.210 --> 0:14:15.130 of it. And I'll say the one leg up I 0:14:15.210 --> 0:14:19.770 feel like I have is at MIT, I teach freshmen 0:14:20.970 --> 0:14:24.930 freshman holds your feet to the fire. They want to know, 0:14:25.330 --> 0:14:29.090 but they want it clearly, And so I think this 0:14:29.130 --> 0:14:31.290 is something we all have to aspire to if we're 0:14:31.290 --> 0:14:34.450 going to get a country that's involved in making wise decisions, 0:14:34.450 --> 0:14:40.130 whether journalistically or scientifically. So Nyla, let's turn to this 0:14:40.210 --> 0:14:45.130 question of bringing people together. Many people feel like they 0:14:45.210 --> 0:14:48.090 just want to give up on the prospect of bringing 0:14:48.130 --> 0:14:52.890 people together. Everybody's in their tribes. Okay, maybe, but this 0:14:52.930 --> 0:14:55.850 isn't gonna work in the long runs. So how do 0:14:55.970 --> 0:15:00.330 we find common grounds or at least find meeting ground 0:15:00.570 --> 0:15:02.690 where we can meet and talk with each other. Because 0:15:03.690 --> 0:15:08.370 I do think most people deep down do want the 0:15:08.490 --> 0:15:12.250 same thing things. They want their family to be secure. 0:15:13.770 --> 0:15:17.050 They would like to have a healthy planet, you know, 0:15:17.170 --> 0:15:22.330 a healthier life for themselves, more peace. I was struck 0:15:22.370 --> 0:15:27.730 in the election coverage that there were instances where people 0:15:27.810 --> 0:15:31.330 tried not to go head on saying I want to 0:15:31.330 --> 0:15:35.730 convince you to vote for my candidate, but instead to 0:15:35.770 --> 0:15:39.450 ask what's bothering you? What's on your mind? What are 0:15:39.450 --> 0:15:46.250 you worried about? By listening and establishing what are common goals, 0:15:46.330 --> 0:15:48.410 when may be able to circle back and say, okay, 0:15:48.570 --> 0:15:51.610 if that's the goal, what are the ways we might 0:15:51.690 --> 0:15:54.210 get there? Now I realize I may seem like a 0:15:54.210 --> 0:15:58.490 hopeless optimist here, and it's not like I'm I'm unrealistic 0:15:58.530 --> 0:16:00.890 about it. It's just I don't see anything else that 0:16:01.050 --> 0:16:05.930 works other than trying to find that kind of meeting 0:16:05.970 --> 0:16:09.850 ground amongst people, and any kind of change has to 0:16:09.890 --> 0:16:13.090 start by finding something that shared. So I don't know 0:16:13.130 --> 0:16:15.770 what your experiences has been with this. I think that 0:16:16.050 --> 0:16:18.090 what I have found as a journalist, and this kind 0:16:18.090 --> 0:16:20.490 of goes back again to communication, but I think it 0:16:20.530 --> 0:16:25.970 also goes back to this idea of humility is language 0:16:26.050 --> 0:16:28.810 is really important here because I think that the way 0:16:28.810 --> 0:16:33.610 that you frame something tells people how to think about something. So, 0:16:33.730 --> 0:16:36.730 for example, as a journalist, when I am interviewing someone, 0:16:36.970 --> 0:16:39.570 I always ask them a question, which seems like a 0:16:39.730 --> 0:16:42.450 very simple thing. But actually, if you listen to a 0:16:42.450 --> 0:16:45.330 lot of journalists when they're interviewing people, they don't ask 0:16:45.370 --> 0:16:48.170 them questions. They make statements or they say, tell me 0:16:48.250 --> 0:16:49.850 about something. Well, if you tell someone to tell you 0:16:49.850 --> 0:16:52.090 about something, they're going to tell you about something. Oh 0:16:52.130 --> 0:16:56.450 that is so interesting because I hadn't actually processed before 0:16:56.810 --> 0:17:00.170 that tell me about something is not really asking a question. 0:17:00.450 --> 0:17:02.410 And so this is my pet peeve as a broadcast 0:17:02.450 --> 0:17:05.210 journalist and as a host, that you should never say 0:17:05.250 --> 0:17:07.530 tell me about something to someone you shouldn't because you 0:17:07.530 --> 0:17:10.130 can always ask it as a question, because I actually 0:17:10.130 --> 0:17:13.610 think our brains hear that differently and they process that differently. 0:17:13.970 --> 0:17:17.290 And I think that's just one example of how language 0:17:17.290 --> 0:17:20.330 can be so important when we're thinking about And this 0:17:20.410 --> 0:17:23.810 is of course we parse every word, you know, as 0:17:23.890 --> 0:17:27.330 journalists and as a broadcast journalist, and on our podcast 0:17:27.810 --> 0:17:30.770 it is not live, and so we literally do parse 0:17:30.850 --> 0:17:34.290 every word. And I wonder for you how you've seen 0:17:35.010 --> 0:17:37.570 language is important to you, especially as you think about 0:17:37.650 --> 0:17:40.050 brave New planet, right, And when I think about, like 0:17:40.130 --> 0:17:42.410 you have this idea, I want to ask you, like 0:17:42.490 --> 0:17:45.410 this whole idea of like stewards of the brave New planet. 0:17:45.730 --> 0:17:48.250 That's an interesting choice of word that you have, stewarts. 0:17:48.290 --> 0:17:52.010 It's a very deliberate one. Stewards of the Brave New 0:17:52.050 --> 0:17:58.810 Planet was chosen very intentionally. I think across the political spectrum, 0:17:58.850 --> 0:18:05.410 from religious conservatives to very progressive people, there is some 0:18:05.650 --> 0:18:10.730 shared sense of stewardship in Eastern religion, the idea that 0:18:10.770 --> 0:18:16.170 people are stewards of the planet, you know, that's fundamental 0:18:16.210 --> 0:18:21.610 and biblical. We all feel like we have an obligation 0:18:21.770 --> 0:18:24.610 to be and want to be stewards of this planet, 0:18:24.650 --> 0:18:28.810 and so it dawned on me one day that this 0:18:28.970 --> 0:18:31.530 was a word that we didn't have to argue about. 0:18:31.850 --> 0:18:34.690 And if we have the common mission of being stewards, 0:18:35.130 --> 0:18:38.610 we can now have a serious discussion about how can 0:18:38.690 --> 0:18:41.650 we be the best stewards. But we start by being 0:18:41.650 --> 0:18:46.370 on the same side. And so let's be optimistic and 0:18:46.410 --> 0:18:50.370 say that we have established a common ground and that 0:18:50.450 --> 0:18:54.130 we're working on building trust. We've been talking about the 0:18:54.130 --> 0:18:58.290 pandemic we've had. You've had some really practical solutions for that. 0:18:58.690 --> 0:19:02.330 Because I remain I would say, as a journalist, I 0:19:02.370 --> 0:19:05.010 am an optimist, but I'm always a skeptical journalist, and 0:19:05.050 --> 0:19:09.970 I remained very concerned about our ability the country to 0:19:11.090 --> 0:19:16.570 unite around the science of the pandemic. I share your concern. 0:19:17.210 --> 0:19:19.450 We all should be very concerned about it and therefore 0:19:19.490 --> 0:19:22.130 work hard to try to overcome it. But then when 0:19:22.130 --> 0:19:25.570 we think about other issues that are just as big, 0:19:26.090 --> 0:19:30.090 arguably bigger, like climate change, I wonder, how do we 0:19:30.170 --> 0:19:33.330 do that well. I think that's a great example to 0:19:33.370 --> 0:19:36.450 think about climate change. We went through a long period 0:19:36.490 --> 0:19:40.530 of time when the argument is climate changing. I think 0:19:40.570 --> 0:19:44.410 we've largely moved past that. The question now is what 0:19:44.530 --> 0:19:47.770 do we do about it? What worries me is how 0:19:47.770 --> 0:19:51.850 many people feel overwhelmed, pessimistic that there's no prospect of 0:19:51.930 --> 0:19:56.810 doing anything without wrecking the economy and dramatically changing daily life, 0:19:57.210 --> 0:20:00.930 you know, banning hamburgers and airplanes. I think it's provoked 0:20:00.970 --> 0:20:04.250 many people across the whole political spectrum to just throw 0:20:04.330 --> 0:20:07.810 up their hands. I think it's terrible. We don't want 0:20:07.850 --> 0:20:12.330 people to feel fatalist, stick and pessimistic and overwhelmed. You know, 0:20:12.450 --> 0:20:16.570 the ultimate answer, it's a climate change. It's actually pretty straightforward. 0:20:17.090 --> 0:20:18.850 The only thing that will work in the long run 0:20:18.970 --> 0:20:22.130 is to make renewable energy that's cheaper than fossil fuels. 0:20:22.770 --> 0:20:25.930 The minute that happens, the market will move to renewables 0:20:25.930 --> 0:20:29.010 on its own. So the answer has to be innovation. 0:20:29.130 --> 0:20:32.170 It's just how do you get that innovation. Now, we've 0:20:32.170 --> 0:20:35.450 already seen a lot of progress. The cost of solar 0:20:35.570 --> 0:20:38.650 energy and wind energy has been dropping dramatically. In some places, 0:20:39.210 --> 0:20:42.290 that's cheaper than burning oil. Now, we still need a 0:20:42.290 --> 0:20:46.410 lot more better battery storage and better electrification, but there's 0:20:46.450 --> 0:20:49.530 every reason to think we can do it. So the 0:20:49.610 --> 0:20:52.010 national goal ought to be for America to lead the 0:20:52.010 --> 0:20:56.130 world in inventing and producing and selling new energy technologies. 0:20:57.010 --> 0:21:00.490 And you know that way, addressing climate change and promoting 0:21:00.650 --> 0:21:04.090 economic growth don't have to really be in conflict. There's 0:21:04.090 --> 0:21:07.930 actually a great historical example. One of the reasons America 0:21:08.010 --> 0:21:11.610 became the leader in semiconductors and computers is that the 0:21:11.650 --> 0:21:15.770 government created huge incentives for the semiconductor industry. Way back 0:21:15.810 --> 0:21:20.010 in the nineteen fifties. The military bought huge quantities of 0:21:20.050 --> 0:21:24.650 semiconductors even when they were too expensive to be commercially viable. 0:21:25.130 --> 0:21:29.010 They called it pump priming. So on climate change, I 0:21:29.050 --> 0:21:32.210 think we have our incentives completely backward right now, and 0:21:32.250 --> 0:21:35.250 I think most Americans could get together around the idea 0:21:35.290 --> 0:21:40.130 of using incentives to unleash American innovation. How much do 0:21:40.170 --> 0:21:42.610 you think that inertia for lack of a better word, 0:21:43.090 --> 0:21:46.250 whether we're thinking of big things like changes in technology 0:21:46.250 --> 0:21:50.450 and innovation with climate change, but I'm also really thinking 0:21:50.450 --> 0:21:53.530 more on the individual level about people feeling overwhelmed and 0:21:53.570 --> 0:21:57.690 pessimistic and sort of resigned. How much of that do 0:21:57.770 --> 0:22:01.810 you think results from the way that we communicate, And 0:22:01.850 --> 0:22:04.530 by that I'm talking primarily about social media. I think 0:22:04.570 --> 0:22:08.730 that's a significant issue. Looking back. There was a time 0:22:08.810 --> 0:22:12.490 that I think most Americans thought America could do anything 0:22:12.490 --> 0:22:15.610 could put its mind to. I don't think people feel 0:22:15.650 --> 0:22:18.330 that as much as they should, but there was a 0:22:18.410 --> 0:22:22.570 sense not that long ago that we could tackle any challenge. 0:22:23.090 --> 0:22:26.250 I don't think the kinds of wars that people get 0:22:26.330 --> 0:22:30.290 into over social media and takedowns, I don't think they're 0:22:30.290 --> 0:22:37.650 really conducive to letting people have big aspirations. I think 0:22:37.730 --> 0:22:41.170 there are amazing things we can get done. Look at 0:22:41.210 --> 0:22:44.490 what's gotten done over the last fifty years, everything that's 0:22:44.970 --> 0:22:48.130 been able to be transformed. We can still do that 0:22:48.410 --> 0:22:51.850 because I see this as something where people on the 0:22:51.930 --> 0:22:55.450 left and people on the right both know that that's true, 0:22:56.130 --> 0:22:59.570 and they you know, some may come from a market orientation, 0:22:59.770 --> 0:23:03.010 some may come from from a research orientation, but we 0:23:03.130 --> 0:23:05.810 know we've pulled things like this off in the past, 0:23:06.410 --> 0:23:10.050 and so I'd like to reorient the discussion. So on 0:23:10.090 --> 0:23:13.850 that note, how if we're thinking about the stewards who 0:23:13.850 --> 0:23:20.610 are listening, what is your final advice or tips for them? 0:23:21.690 --> 0:23:26.530 Do something doesn't matter what Go make a curriculum for 0:23:26.610 --> 0:23:30.410 schools on some topic that you care about or that 0:23:30.530 --> 0:23:34.410 we talked about in the program. Go organize the discussion, 0:23:34.570 --> 0:23:37.850 Go talk to you know, a local legislator about it. 0:23:38.170 --> 0:23:41.810 I think the key is to start. The point is, 0:23:41.970 --> 0:23:46.130 if you feel pessimistic, if you feel overwhelmed, if you 0:23:46.130 --> 0:23:51.210 feel paralyzed, that's terrible. Do something something will lead to 0:23:51.290 --> 0:23:55.970 something else. Now, no one person changes the whole world, 0:23:56.530 --> 0:24:00.610 but together changing our attitude that we can make change. 0:24:01.530 --> 0:24:05.410 That is really important. It's the basis of science. When 0:24:05.450 --> 0:24:09.170 people set out to try to cure cancer, they say, oh, 0:24:09.170 --> 0:24:11.850 my god, that goal is so huge, how am I 0:24:11.890 --> 0:24:16.170 going to do it? And yet scientists, step by step, 0:24:16.530 --> 0:24:18.250 they take a piece of the problem and they make 0:24:18.330 --> 0:24:21.290 progress against it. And so we go from the nineteen 0:24:21.410 --> 0:24:24.250 seventies when nobody had a clue what cancer was about 0:24:24.770 --> 0:24:29.210 two people understanding, oh, cancer is caused by genetic mutations, 0:24:29.730 --> 0:24:32.930 and then discovering, oh, sometimes we can make drugs that 0:24:32.970 --> 0:24:36.970 block the effects of those mutations. Oh, we can harness 0:24:37.050 --> 0:24:41.450 the immune system to make therapies. You know, any given week, 0:24:41.490 --> 0:24:45.250 any given months, you might feel pessimistic because you don't 0:24:45.290 --> 0:24:48.690 really see progress. But if you step back and look 0:24:48.810 --> 0:24:52.130 over the course of a decade or two, it's breathtaking 0:24:52.130 --> 0:24:55.930 how much progress can happen. I think science and society 0:24:55.930 --> 0:24:58.730 are pretty similar in this regard. You can take on 0:24:59.250 --> 0:25:04.130 huge challenges that of enough people are moving that forward. Oh, 0:25:04.170 --> 0:25:06.890 we end up making a big difference. Well, thank you. 0:25:06.970 --> 0:25:09.890 I'm glad that we found common ground, and I appreciate 0:25:09.970 --> 0:25:13.490 so much that you were willing to sit down and 0:25:13.530 --> 0:25:15.650 talk to me about all of these things. It's an honor. 0:25:15.650 --> 0:25:18.930 I appreciate it. Thank you, well, thank you, Nila. It's 0:25:18.970 --> 0:25:22.610 been great to talk. And to all the listeners out there, 0:25:22.610 --> 0:25:33.970