WEBVTT - Mulvaney on Crypto, the CFPB, and More 0:00:02.920 --> 0:00:06.280 Hello, and welcome to the Votes and Verdicts podcast hosted 0:00:06.280 --> 0:00:10.200 by Bloomberg Intelligence, the investment research platform of Bloomberg LP. 0:00:10.800 --> 0:00:14.960 This podcast series examined the intersection of business policy and law. 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:18.640 I'm Elliott Stein. I'm an analyst with Bloomberg Intelligence covering 0:00:18.680 --> 0:00:19.640 financials litigation. 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:22.560 And my name is Nathan Dean, and I'm an analyst 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:25.000 with Bloomberg Intelligence covering financials policy. 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:28.840 So we're delighted today to be joined by Mick Mulvaney, 0:00:28.960 --> 0:00:33.800 former Congressman from South Carolina, former OMB director under President Trump, 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:36.599 and also former Acting White House Chief of Staff and 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:41.000 acting CFPB director. This is the inaugural episode of this 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:44.440 podcast series, and we're obviously really excited to have as 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:48.040 our first guest someone who has seen Washington from the 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:51.879 inside from multiple perspectives and who can give us a 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:55.400 lot of unique insights about the intersection of Washington and business. 0:00:55.440 --> 0:00:58.040 So Director Mulvaney, welcome, and thank you very much for 0:00:58.120 --> 0:00:58.760 joining us. 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:01.480 Elliott, thanks for having me. I didn't realize this was 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:03.440 the very first one. That's a lot of pressure on me. 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:05.080 It's a lot of pressure on you, a lot of 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:06.679 pressure on us. But I think we're going to be 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:10.360 just fine. So you obviously have a fascinating and very 0:01:10.400 --> 0:01:14.320 successful life story. You've been a practicing lawyer, a congressman, 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:17.760 director of the Office of Management and Budget, acting White 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:21.000 House chiefs of Staff, acting cus COMD Director Special Envoys 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:24.080 in Northern Ireland. You're a consultant now. Now that's an 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:27.399 impressive resume. We thought it'd be interesting for you to 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:29.880 tell us and our listeners you know, how you got 0:01:29.880 --> 0:01:32.200 to where you are, which role you like the most, 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:34.839 which role was the most challenging, and then maybe also 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:36.240 tell us about what you're doing now. 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:39.280 Oh, I don't think that the story about how I 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:44.479 got here now is very interesting. The most challenging job, 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:47.560 Let's do it this way. The best job I ever 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:49.960 had in my entire life was the Director of the 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:54.800 Office of Management and Budget. It's the job I wanted 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:57.200 once I got to Washington. I remember being in twenty 0:01:57.320 --> 0:01:59.960 eleven being on the budget committee. Then we interviewed this 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:02.360 CBO director whose name I cannot remember because as I 0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:05.520 get older, I cannot remember people's names. But I remember 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:07.520 going through that committee hearing going, wow, you know, I 0:02:07.520 --> 0:02:10.720 haven't heard of that job since what's his name? David 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:13.320 Stockman had it in the nineteen eighties under Ronald Reagan. 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:15.519 But boy, does that sound like a really cool job. 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:19.799 And I did a little bit of work with Rick 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:24.000 Perry in twenty twelve, which included, by the way, debate prep. 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:28.919 Please don't tell anybody that, but I was hoping if 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:31.040 Rick had become president, to be the O and B director. 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:34.960 Then I worked with Rand Paul in twenty sixteen with 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:37.480 the same sort of understanding. And then I ended up 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:39.239 getting the job from somebody that I didn't even work 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:42.000 for to get elected, which was with Donald Trump. The 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:44.720 job is the job that I think many people think 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:47.200 they are getting when they get elected to Congress. It 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:50.600 is one hundred percent policy all of the time. It's 0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:53.680 the real nuts and bolts of how the government works. 0:02:53.919 --> 0:02:57.519 I mean for geeks, for budget geeks, for numbers geeks, 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:00.959 for government geeks. It's just heaven. And that was the 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:04.160 best job I think I ever had. It's not surprising, 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:08.959 by the way that that transitioned into the chief of 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:11.560 staff position. I think that has happened half a dozen 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:14.040 times in my lifetime. In fact, I think the last 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:18.359 four administrations had chiefs of staff that had previously been 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:20.920 directors of the Office of Management Budget. There's a reason 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:22.079 for that. We you talk about if you want to. 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:24.960 But that was the best job I think I've ever 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:28.080 had in my entire life and enjoyed every single minute 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:29.200 of every sixteen hour day. 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:32.600 Yeah, that's super fascinating. And so maybe tell us a 0:03:32.600 --> 0:03:34.000 little bit about what you're doing now too. 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:36.680 Yeah, not much trying to figure out what I want 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:37.960 to be when I grow up. I don't know where 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:40.440 what you do after you have your dream job, right, 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:45.200 So I'm doing a little bit of advising to companies 0:03:45.240 --> 0:03:46.840 how to deal with the federal government, doing a lot 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:50.240 of work overseas on what it's like to do business 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:53.200 with the US government, so companies that are dealing with 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:56.960 regulatory issues. Again, most of it oversees. The political climate 0:03:57.000 --> 0:04:01.240 here is really really bad for former Trump people, which 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:03.280 is fine. I mean, that's that's the way the pendulum swings. 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:06.240 The Europeans don't like Trump any more than the Americans do, 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:08.440 it seems, but they don't care about the politics. They 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:10.640 just want to make money. So I'm doing a good 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:13.880 bit of that. I was involved in Crypto fairly early. 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:16.599 I don't remember when we started the Caucus David Schweiker 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:20.920 and I started the Blockchain Caucus I twenty thirteen, fourteen. 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:23.000 I can't remember. All I remember is that bitcoin was 0:04:23.080 --> 0:04:26.440 exactly two hundred dollars when I started the caucus. I 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:28.160 did not buy any because I thought it was a 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:30.240 conflict of interist I had staffers who did, who have 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:33.440 now since retired. They're very thankful for that, I think. 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:37.760 And I got involved in crypto very early on and 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:40.039 have stayed involved in that. I'm on the board of 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:42.120 the Digital Chamber of Commerce in Washington, DC, one of 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:46.080 the leading trade associations for blockchain and crypto, and so 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:50.720 I'm advising a couple of smaller startups in the in 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:53.359 the navigating the crypto world, and that has been fun. 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:56.040 So I do a good bit of television radio, including 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:58.880 with you folks. Always enjoy being on Bloomberg, both both 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:01.960 on audio and on video, but again mostly just trying 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:03.880 to figure out what to do. I don't know what 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:06.240 I do for a living, Elliott, but I do know 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:07.359 it takes all of my time. 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:12.200 Those are good answers, all right, So you know, why 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:14.280 don't we stick with the crypto topic and I'll kick 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:16.479 it over to Nathan to go from there. 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:19.160 Yeah, you know, let's talk about your history of crypto 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:20.840 and you know, like you just mentioned, you were one 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:24.160 of the you know, the earliest proponents of blockchain technology. 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:26.040 I mean, here we are, like eight or nine years 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:31.240 after you've founded the Blockchain Caucus, and you know, I 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:33.040 just real quickly, what was the first time you heard 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:34.760 about crypto and why did it pique your interest? 0:05:35.320 --> 0:05:38.520 Yeah, I was at a conference. I was on the 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:40.800 Financial Services Committee I think at the time, or at 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:42.200 least I was. I was, I know, it's on the 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:44.599 Budget committee at least, and I got invited to speak 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:47.440 at a conference and my topic that day was the 0:05:47.480 --> 0:05:50.160 gold standard. And I'm not one of these hardcore, you know, 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:52.120 pro gold standard guys, but I know about it. I 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:54.320 understand some of the advantages of it. So I sort 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:55.880 of there to try and give both sides of the 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:58.640 gold standard on a panel discussion about whatever I can't 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:00.680 remember what it was. And it was a young woman 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:03.800 there who introduced me to the crowd for the first 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:06.760 time to this thing called bitcoin. And as she sat 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:10.440 there and she described it sort of this introduction, introductory 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:13.360 lecture on what what bitcoin was, I'm like, you know, 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:16.640 what there's there's a good bit of overlap there between 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:19.400 what bitcoin is and what a gold standard could be. 0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:23.440 And so I talked with her afterwards and started doing 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:25.160 a little bit research, and that's when I discovered the 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:27.880 underlying technology of blockchain and bitcoin is fascinating to me. 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:30.040 I think it's I think it's interesting. I don't invest 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:32.960 in it. I've never owned a bitcoin in my life, 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:36.760 but it was blockchain that really really got my attention 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:39.520 because as they sitting there doing the research trying to 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:42.039 figure out what this was, this distributed ledger of technology, 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:45.680 I'm like, you know what, this has the potential to 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:48.840 take every three party transaction in the world and make 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:51.719 it into a two party transaction. I had practiced law 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:53.880 for a while, did a lot of real estate, and 0:06:54.040 --> 0:06:56.280 know what a three party transaction is. Know what escer is, 0:06:56.320 --> 0:06:58.240 Know why we have a register of deeds. Those are 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:01.599 all three party transactions. I've been Washington financial services learning 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:05.400 about credit card companies work three party transactions. In fact, 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:07.240 when I'm not on the radio talking to people in public, 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:10.239 I say pretty much all of our interactions accept sex 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:13.960 or probably three party transactions in the world. And someone 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:16.280 pointed out that some sex is three party transactions. But 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:18.400 we've probably wandered off the topic now. 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:21.040 Anyway, that's a different podcast. 0:07:21.000 --> 0:07:23.280 Exactly, But I say it occurs to me, if you 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:27.880 have the ability to make three party transactions two party transactions, 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:31.520 you have the ability to change the world. And that's 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:33.800 what really really got my attention. That's what I decided, 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:36.000 you know, what we need to focus on this blockchain 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:38.080 thing is this could be as big as the Internet is. 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:40.880 I still believe that. By the way, I think that 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:45.080 crypto has sort of become a distraction on top of blockchain, 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:47.520 but I think that the underlying technology and the concept 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:51.440 is one of the most earth changing things that I've 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:53.559 been involved with in my entire adult career. 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:56.600 So you mentioned distraction, and I think that's a good 0:07:56.640 --> 0:08:00.000 word to go to our next question, and it's really 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:03.600 about in the light of the FTX collapse. You know, 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:06.320 there was a lot of momentum last year in terms 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:09.440 of work being done on certain bills. You know, you 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:13.280 mentioned the digital Chamber of commerce, and obviously FTX and 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:15.280 coinbase have spent a lot of time on the hill 0:08:15.360 --> 0:08:19.240 talking about bills. You know, I just it's really a 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:21.200 two part question, and the first part is is that 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:23.800 you know, you know, many in the cryptocurrency industry have 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:27.160 called for this new regulatory framework AA aka there's we 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:29.000 have a new asset class. And then you have others 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:31.880 like SEC Chairman Gary Gensler who have said that, you know, 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:36.520 three nineteen thirties era securities laws still applicable. You know, 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:39.760 does there need to be a renewed regulatory framework from Congress? 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:42.600 And if so, you know, what do you think that 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:45.280 should that look like? Should it define what a security 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:47.960 is versus a commodity? Should the SEC get more power 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:50.600 or should the CFTC power? And I guess the third 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:52.640 part to my two part question is do you think 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:54.640 something can pass in this new divided government. 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:56.880 Yeah, let me do the last one first, because the 0:08:56.880 --> 0:09:00.319 answer is yes. You know, close friends with Patrick Henry 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:05.080 Unknownpatrick for probably twenty years now, and I was very 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:07.080 excited when it was going to become clear that the 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:08.920 Republicans were taking the majority and he was going to 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:12.520 be the committee chairman on Financial Services, and then especially 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:14.559 pleased last week when I found out he was creating 0:09:14.559 --> 0:09:17.040 a new digital asset sub committees, putting french Hill from 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:20.480 Arkansas in charge. French is probably one of the if 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:23.400 not the most capable members of that Financial Services Committee 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:27.719 on the Republican side. So clearly McCarthy McHenry has a 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:31.599 great deal of trust in him. And I think what 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:34.640 Patrick would tell you if he were on this podcast is, look, 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:38.840 there's not very many bipartisan topics right now in Washington. 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:43.080 Maybe antipathy towards China, maybe you know, distrust of big tech. 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:46.679 But the third one would be an interest in digital 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:48.640 assets doesn't mean you're for it, doesn't mean you're against it. 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:51.439 It's just you're sort of looking at it. Both parties 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:54.080 want to know more about it, and that's a good sign. 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:57.280 Why is that a good sign because as of right now, 0:09:57.840 --> 0:09:59.679 let's call it digital assets is sort of the asset 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:05.120 class is not politicized. Even despite some Republican efforts to 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:08.400 try and and taint the Democrats with the Sam Bemmerfried 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:12.520 financial contributions, the bottom line is still that this is 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:17.120 not perceived as a Republican topic or a Democrat topic. 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:20.640 And that's a really, really good sign for the likely 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:24.920 chance of having a decent piece of legislation. The FTX 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:28.080 thing was certainly a big deal. Did it move the needle, 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:30.960 you know, listen. I was in Switzerland last week at 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:34.320 a digital conference, had some great conversations. Was talking to 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:38.600 Anthony Scaramucci, who overlapped with for eleven days, which has 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:41.240 now become a term of art. Eleven days in the 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:44.400 White House is called a mooch. And you know, he's 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:45.800 been in crypto for a long time, and he and 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:49.200 I have discussed this before. I posited the thesis that 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:52.600 FTX was going to make it more likely that the 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:56.440 CFTC would fall out of favor as the as the 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:59.440 chosen lead regulator, and that would give more strength to 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:03.760 the SEE, and Anthony disagreed and said that he didn't 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:05.599 see it that way at all. He thought the CFTC 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:09.520 still sort of had was in the ascendency on where 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:14.440 Congress wanted to put the lead regulatory authority. So I 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:18.800 think the jury's very still much out on that. I 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:22.280 prefer the CFTC, if for no other reason. Then you 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:25.120 know your question had a little bit of a bias 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:28.120 in it. You know about a nineteen thirty three security regulations, 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:35.000 but it's not wrong. Gensler is anti blockchain crypto, and 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:37.280 I don't want a regulator who's anti I want a 0:11:37.320 --> 0:11:40.360 regulator who is interested in seeing what they can do 0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:46.080 to encourage innovation, to encourage growth, to protect consumers, but 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:49.079 not to make the unilateral decision that this asset class 0:11:49.080 --> 0:11:51.920 of that asset class is good or bad. I want 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:54.360 the market to do that, not a regulator. So if 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:56.880 you asked me, is that SEC versus CFTC, I come 0:11:56.920 --> 0:11:59.640 down the CFTC sign but mostly because it's Gensler and 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:04.080 not and not just because the institutional entity of the SEC. 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:07.120 There was three parts to you two part question. I 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:09.240 can't remember what the first part was. I was going backwards. 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:10.760 If you if you remember, we can do it. That 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:11.400 go on. 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:13.880 Now you actually got it all, you know, I actually, 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:17.080 you know, just talking about the SEC for example, you know, 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:21.000 was do you think that there's any regulatory or policy 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:23.679 blame that can be assigned to the SEC in terms 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:27.720 of ft X and even just some of the you know, 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:29.680 what you hear for a lot from the crypto community 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:33.120 is there's this like uncertainty where there you know, we. 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:35.600 Just don't know the you know, they'd say, we don't 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:37.840 know the playing field, we don't know, and you know, 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:40.040 there's been a lot of criticism levied at the SEC 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:43.199 to not bringing forth soon enough enforcement actions. 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:46.040 You know, does the SEC have anything to blame here 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:48.880 or is this just a situation where you know, Congress 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:50.600 needs to step in and figure it out and. 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:53.280 We'll just move forward. You know, Certainty is one of 0:12:53.320 --> 0:12:55.760 those words. This sort of you know, gets a lot 0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:58.079 of attention to Washington, d C. Everybody wants a lot 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:02.000 of certainty. Life is not very certain so, I mean, 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:03.360 you know, we don't know if the FED is going 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:05.960 to raise rates quarter point a half point or something 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:08.079 else next week. There's no certainty there. So certainty is 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:10.360 sort of an overused word. I think what you're looking 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:16.040 for is clarity from the government as to how it's 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:18.840 going to treat an asset class, how they're going to 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:21.839 do rule making, what their purposes are. And I think 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:24.320 that's more important to focus on. I don't blame this 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:28.560 SEC for the FTX situation. I blame Sam Bankman Freed 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:32.000 in his his in his in his group. I don't 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:34.920 see FTX as a crypto thing. I see FTX as 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:38.480 a is a fraud thing, is a theft thing. Bernie 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:40.720 Madoff was in a regulated industry and Round was in 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:42.679 a regulated industry, and they still figured out a way 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:44.760 to break the law and steal people's money. So folks, 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:47.000 are you know bad people are always going to do that. 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:49.600 Of course, I say that these are allegations and not proven, 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:51.760 so I don't want to get sued, you know, So 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:54.080 we'll say, you know, assuming the allegations are true, as 0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:57.400 we sort of as we couch this discussion. But I 0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:01.520 don't blame the SEC for SBF's behavior. I blame him 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:04.559 for his behavior. And I don't think that any particular 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:08.520 guardrails would have stopped somebody who seems to have been 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:12.400 that intent on taking people's money. So no, I don't 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:14.880 look at the government as protecting us from all ills 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:17.600 in life. I do think it's incumbent upon the government 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:21.160 to give business clear guidelines. It's one of the things, 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:23.680 by the way, the industry has been requesting for the 0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:25.760 very from the very beginning. I was in a small 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:29.880 business committee in twenty and eleven and we had a 0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:33.200 hearing laid in that term. So it's probably early twenty 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:38.120 thirteen on asset classes. And all the industry wanted at 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:40.760 that time is tell us what we are. That was it. 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:42.840 And I think at that time and that you did 0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:44.920 ask this question about you know, is it a security, 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:47.960 is it a commodity, is it something else? And I 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:49.680 remember doing research at the time that I think it 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:52.600 was the Germans who created its own separate asset class, 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:56.440 So it wasn't this or that, it was its own things. 0:14:56.680 --> 0:14:59.160 That's what I want the government to do. Sometimes you 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:01.520 want the government to make a decision even if it's wrong, 0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:03.400 because at least if they make a decision, you can 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:06.800 plan and you can go forward. That that's not certainty, 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:08.840 that's clarity, and that's what I think it's incumbent upon 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:10.240 the government to give. And I think that's what the 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:13.480 industry is looking for, has been looking for, and will 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:17.120 continue to look for. Maybe with this new Republican Control 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:20.440 of Financial Services Committee and the still bipartisan interest in 0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:22.960 the industry, we will get clarity out of the government, 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:23.800 out of this Congress. 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:27.280 So, Director Molvini, you know, in light of the FTX collapse, 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:29.960 you know, there's been a lot of discussion about centralized 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:34.640 versus decentralized, and really, like I guess my question is 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:36.400 is that, like, where's the future of crypto? 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:36.960 Do you see it? 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:38.360 I mean, you're doing a lot of work right now 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:40.800 in this space, you know, is it in the centralized 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:44.040 space like FTX, or is it more decentralized so that, 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:46.360 you know, maybe it's the new technology in the future. 0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:48.200 Yeah. I don't know. If you all had a chance 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:49.680 to watch the Senate hearings. I think I watched a 0:15:49.720 --> 0:15:51.280 little bit of the Senate and the House hearings, and 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:54.680 a couple folks raise that issue about centralized versus decentralized finance, 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:57.880 and they try to draw, you know, a line from 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:00.640 Mount Gox all the way to FDx. The one sort 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:02.960 of central feature of that is that those are all centralized, 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:07.240 you know, financial institutions. That's where all of the difficulty 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:08.720 has been. I don't want if we say fraud, but 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:11.440 that's that's that's where the that's where the land mines 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:13.880 have been, and there's never been a circumstance of a 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:16.200 you know, a major decentralized problem. I think that's where 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:19.960 the industry is going. It's it creates some interesting challenges 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:23.840 because the decentralized system looks a lot less like you know, 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:26.840 the traditional banking system. So then the question becomes, you know, 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:28.800 how do you how do you reconcile those two things? 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:32.280 How do you take decentralized finance and and put it 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:35.720 that that square peg in a round hole. You asked 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:38.160 me earlier about some of the work I'm doing overseas. 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:40.240 I worked for a company called the astrap Protocol which 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:44.160 is doing k y C and a m L for DeFi, 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:47.240 and it's a it's a fascinating technology, and I think 0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:49.600 there's a lot of folks looking at how do we 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:54.080 take this new looking thing of DeFi and and put 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:57.120 it in the the the you know, sort of the 0:16:57.120 --> 0:16:59.160 the square peg in the round hole of of what 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:01.640 we've got right now. So I think if once folks 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:04.560 figure out how to do that, take all the benefits 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:07.080 of what we see in with blockchain, but figure out 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:10.800 a way to meld it into the more traditional sort 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:12.879 of environment, I think that's gonna be a huge success. 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:16.200 You saw the DJ announce a money laundering case I 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:19.600 think just yesterday against a Russian crypto firm. If you 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:22.919 can do KYC, if you can do a m L properly, 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:26.200 that kind of stuff doesn't happen. So that's why I 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:28.000 think folks like Astro and some of the other folks 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:30.800 that work with are in an interesting place at the 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:33.520 cutting edge, because I think that's where the that's where 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:34.280 the future is going. 0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:36.800 I just wanted to go back to something you said 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:40.080 where you know, you're talking about the discussion you were 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:43.320 having with Scaramucci and how you thought, you know, the 0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:48.200 FTX collapse would result in Congress given the SEC more power, 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:51.600 you know, rather than the c STC, and Scary Muci 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:53.480 had a different view. I'm sort of curious why why 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:55.119 you think that, and sort of where the difference is 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:58.440 between you know, your view and the opposite view. 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:00.800 Yeah, it's really interesting. A lot of it. I think 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:04.119 it's do with politics. You know, Anthony's very politically savvy, 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:06.000 but he's never been elected, and he knows a hell 0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:07.959 of a lot more about markets than I do, and 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:10.879 he's forgotten more than I will ever know. So I 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:12.199 think we just came to look at it from two 0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:14.879 different perspectives, and I don't know which one of us 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:17.960 is right. We might both be wrong. But I looked 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:20.919 at it as well. If SBF was in it and 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:23.520 he was lobbying hard for the CFTC, that will carry 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:26.960 a taint and that will push the needle over towards 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:29.000 the SEC. And if I had to put words in 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:30.280 his mouth, and I want to make clear that I'm 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:33.760 doing that. I hope I'm not violating any confidences that 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:35.840 I don't think our conversation was off the record. I 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:37.800 think if I had to put words in Anthony's mouth, 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:41.600 it would be fundamentally the CFTC is still the right 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:45.480 place to do it, and and the SBF situation with 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:48.520 FTX won't change that, and that the CFTC is still 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:50.800 the right place to do it, and that will ultimately 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:52.840 prevail on the merit. So again, I think it's it's 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:55.360 the exact right conversations that you want to have. When 0:18:55.359 --> 0:18:56.760 you try to sort of looking at the industry, you 0:18:56.760 --> 0:18:58.760 get two different respectives and the folks make up their 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:01.160 own mind. I'm sure Congress is going through the same analysis. 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:03.600 I'm sure there's members of Congress like, yeah, you know, 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:06.280 I was sort of leaning towards CFTC, but boy Sam 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:08.280 Peg mcfreed like that, and he's a really he could 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:11.960 he could be a real distraction here. So let's go 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:13.640 look back and look at the SEC. And there could 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:15.240 be other folks look at it and say, you know what, 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:17.720 I don't care what FTX is all about. I think 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:20.160 that was a fraud case. I still think CFTC is right, 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:23.440 let's push it in that direction. I think that the 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:27.600 conversation that I had with Anthony last week is probably, 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:31.080 you know, in a nutshell sort of analogous to a 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:32.240 lot of what's going on on the hill. 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:35.040 Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And like you said, that's 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:37.360 exactly you know, the debate we're going to suit play 0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:40.000 out in Congress over you know, the next several months. 0:19:40.840 --> 0:19:44.960 All right, So turning from crypto to let's let's move 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:47.800 on to the cf TOB the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau 0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:51.160 for those who are not, as you know, intimately familiar 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:54.600 with it as as you are. Actually, that's not even 0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:57.520 the name you wanted to call it, right you. One 0:19:57.520 --> 0:20:00.760 of your first moves as acting direct the CFPV was 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:03.440 a change today. But that that's neither here nor there 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:06.480 unless you want to talk about it. But really I 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:10.040 want to. I want to talk more about the Fifth 0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:14.720 Circuits ruling in October, which was you know, pretty monumental. 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:17.840 It was in a lawsuit by payday lenders challenging the 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:21.879 CFPB's payday rule, as you know, and the Fifth Circuit 0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:25.560 vacated the rule. But more, you know, more importantly, I 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:29.439 guess was the reason behind the ruling, and that was 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:32.439 that the Fifth Circuit held that the the CFPB's funding 0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:36.119 structure is unconstitutional because it comes out of the Federal 0:20:36.160 --> 0:20:40.800 Reserves funding and not directly from congressional appropriations. You know 0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:44.639 that that's a pretty big decision. It's likely to have 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:48.800 profound implications for the future of the CFP. B You know, 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:51.639 you're a former director of the or acting director of 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:55.199 the Bureau. You've also been an outspoken critic of the 0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:57.720 CFPV so I'm curious to hear your thoughts about the 0:20:57.720 --> 0:20:58.760 Fifth Circuits ruling. 0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:01.600 Yeah, and the name change was interesting, by the way. 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:03.280 I tried to change it to the Bureau of Consumer 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:05.800 Financial Protection and everybody you know, looked at me crosside 0:21:05.800 --> 0:21:07.480 and say, why would you start there? I said, because 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:10.520 I read the statue. You know, I'm doing the research 0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:12.159 on that. I knew what the CFPP was for my 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:14.520 time on the on the I was Financial Services Committee, 0:21:14.520 --> 0:21:15.879 and then the President asked me to go over and 0:21:15.920 --> 0:21:18.159 take over it. I was doing double duty between there 0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:20.760 and omb. Those are interesting days, and I'm like, Okay, 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:22.119 I'm gonna go over and run this place. I'll read 0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:24.760 the statute and then the first line it says, Congress 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:28.200 creates the Bureau of Consumer Financial Protection. You know, like, boy, 0:21:28.240 --> 0:21:29.879 you really think maybe the name of the of the 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:33.240 entity should should match what Congress created. So apparently that 0:21:33.320 --> 0:21:37.760 was that was heresy of the highest order inside the building. 0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:42.280 But that's not your question. I uh, you want to 0:21:42.280 --> 0:21:44.520 talk about the Fifth Circuit decision. I was actually in 0:21:44.640 --> 0:21:47.120 National Airport I don't know, three weeks ago, going through 0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:49.240 security and I hear this voice behind me and says, hey, Mick, 0:21:49.240 --> 0:21:51.480 can I turn around? And it's Richard Cordray, who was 0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:54.879 my predecessor as a director, and we had a really 0:21:54.920 --> 0:21:57.600 brief conversation about that. Of course, the the you know, 0:21:57.680 --> 0:21:59.639 the sell A law decision had comeing out, had to 0:21:59.680 --> 0:22:01.600 come out out of the Supreme Court. I can't remembers 0:22:01.600 --> 0:22:06.439 two years ago. And another piece of the cfpb uh 0:22:06.040 --> 0:22:10.159 the status of the director and the unconstitutionality of the 0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:12.720 statute as it dealt with the whether or not the 0:22:12.720 --> 0:22:16.639 president could could fire the the the director of the 0:22:16.760 --> 0:22:18.480 or of the organization. But anyway, rich and I had 0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:21.679 a good conversation about the funding. I think it's a 0:22:21.720 --> 0:22:24.600 fascinating decision, you know, of all, but I don't like 0:22:24.720 --> 0:22:28.440 the fact that the CFPB is funded out of the 0:22:28.680 --> 0:22:31.000 Federal Reserve. Keep in mind folksh aren't familiar with this. 0:22:31.040 --> 0:22:34.679 It's it's a little bit arcane piece of the CFPB history, 0:22:34.680 --> 0:22:37.320 but it's a very interesting insight into what the CFPB 0:22:37.600 --> 0:22:40.080 was created to be, not just what it was created 0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:43.200 to do, but to be. It was created it's brainchild 0:22:43.200 --> 0:22:46.080 most folks know of Elizabeth Warren. It was created to 0:22:46.160 --> 0:22:49.520 be outside of politics. Her attitude was that if you 0:22:49.560 --> 0:22:52.640 allowed politics to influence this, then sometimes the Republicans would 0:22:52.640 --> 0:22:55.000 have control and sometimes Democrats would have control, and that 0:22:55.040 --> 0:22:57.280 was not good. That you needed to have something that 0:22:57.320 --> 0:23:01.480 was outside of politics. So she aided almost or at 0:23:01.560 --> 0:23:05.359 least something that was sort of strived to be the 0:23:05.560 --> 0:23:11.200 perfect left wing permanent bureaucracy with people that were hired 0:23:11.320 --> 0:23:14.199 entirely by the left and then thereafter couldn't be fired, 0:23:15.040 --> 0:23:20.320 that had almost zero accountability to Capitol Hill. One of 0:23:20.359 --> 0:23:23.280 my favorite days of my entire professional careers when I 0:23:23.280 --> 0:23:25.359 went down to testify to Congress, and my opening comment was, 0:23:25.400 --> 0:23:27.720 I'm here to testify, but I don't have to because 0:23:27.760 --> 0:23:30.840 you folks put in the statute that language that suggests 0:23:30.840 --> 0:23:32.160 that I don't even have to be here to talk 0:23:32.200 --> 0:23:34.240 to you. I'm doing it, but I'm not obligated to 0:23:34.240 --> 0:23:38.680 do it. That's how far removed the CFPB is from Congress. 0:23:38.680 --> 0:23:40.320 And of course a big piece of that was funding. 0:23:40.359 --> 0:23:43.720 Instead of giving Congress, as it has with almost every 0:23:43.760 --> 0:23:47.600 other aspect of the executive branch of government, control over 0:23:47.640 --> 0:23:51.840 the spending, it took that away. The CFPB Act dob 0:23:51.880 --> 0:23:54.960 Frank took that away from Congress and essentially said, look, 0:23:55.880 --> 0:23:59.720 the CFPB gets its money automatically as from the Federal Reserve, 0:24:00.080 --> 0:24:01.720 and it has the right to draw down on a 0:24:01.720 --> 0:24:04.840 certain formula. And it is not an exaggeration, guys, not 0:24:04.920 --> 0:24:08.080 an exaggeration to say that at any time during my directorship, 0:24:08.119 --> 0:24:12.160 I could have written, handwritten on a napkin, please give 0:24:12.240 --> 0:24:15.920 me eight hundred million dollars okay, walked across the street 0:24:16.000 --> 0:24:17.840 or down the street to the Federal Reserve, given it 0:24:17.840 --> 0:24:19.399 to the right people, and they would have had to 0:24:19.440 --> 0:24:22.800 give the money to the CFPB. That that was the 0:24:22.840 --> 0:24:26.560 funding mechanism that was set up, and that's what's under 0:24:26.560 --> 0:24:29.280 attack in the in the fifth Circuit. That being said, 0:24:29.359 --> 0:24:33.439 I'm I haven't read the opinion. I fully admit that 0:24:33.480 --> 0:24:36.119 i'd be curious to know what the unconstitutional nature of 0:24:36.160 --> 0:24:39.320 that is, because we do that already with the Federal Reserve. 0:24:39.359 --> 0:24:43.560 The Federal Reserve is outside of the appropriation system of Congress, 0:24:44.280 --> 0:24:46.120 and I'd be curious to see how the Supreme Court, 0:24:46.119 --> 0:24:47.439 I assume it's going to take In fact, I think 0:24:47.480 --> 0:24:51.000 it already has taken it up or granted sert that. 0:24:51.520 --> 0:24:54.960 Yeah, they haven't yet. But you know, the CFPB petition 0:24:55.080 --> 0:24:59.280 for CERT and the industry group that you know brought 0:24:59.280 --> 0:25:02.280 the lesson in the first place, is actually asking for 0:25:02.320 --> 0:25:04.679 the Supreme Court not to grant CERT on the constitutional 0:25:04.720 --> 0:25:06.840 list because they say, you know, they absolutely they don't 0:25:06.840 --> 0:25:09.040 want to disrupt that ruling, but they do want they 0:25:09.359 --> 0:25:12.000 do want to be granted on some of the other 0:25:13.880 --> 0:25:16.320 claims that were rejected by the Fifth Circuit. Actually, so 0:25:16.560 --> 0:25:18.120 we're still waiting to find out if the Supreme Court. 0:25:18.960 --> 0:25:23.000 Yeah, so again the constitutionality, I assume someone has challenged 0:25:23.040 --> 0:25:25.240 the funding mechanism for the Federal Reserve of the course 0:25:25.240 --> 0:25:26.520 of the last one hundred years and that it's been 0:25:26.600 --> 0:25:30.119 upheld constitutionally. So be curious to see how that wedge 0:25:30.119 --> 0:25:33.359 gets driven between the Fed and the cfp B. But 0:25:33.400 --> 0:25:37.359 it's a fascinating, a fascinating process and just goes to 0:25:37.400 --> 0:25:41.119 show you how unusual, how unusual the CFP b is 0:25:41.160 --> 0:25:43.840 in its in its structure, in its operation. Yeah. 0:25:43.840 --> 0:25:45.880 And I think one of the arguments, or at least 0:25:45.880 --> 0:25:48.879 one of one of the reasons that the Fifth Circuit 0:25:49.000 --> 0:25:53.720 cited for the CTPB being unconstitutionally funded in their opinion, 0:25:53.960 --> 0:25:56.239 is that it sort of has this double layer of 0:25:56.320 --> 0:26:01.199 insolarity from Congress. Right, So they're getting the funding from 0:26:01.240 --> 0:26:05.240 the FED, which is essentially getting you know, you know, 0:26:06.200 --> 0:26:08.560 is getting some funded in a certain way, not directly 0:26:08.600 --> 0:26:11.560 from Congress, but Congress has articulated how the FED will 0:26:11.600 --> 0:26:13.600 get funding. So I think I think that's the concern, 0:26:13.640 --> 0:26:18.000 that this double layer. But I'm curious. So, you know, 0:26:18.080 --> 0:26:19.959 let's say the Supreme Court does take it. Let's say 0:26:20.000 --> 0:26:24.679 they affirm it. Let's say the current funding mechanism is unconstitutional. 0:26:25.200 --> 0:26:27.879 You know, how difficult do you think it would be 0:26:27.960 --> 0:26:30.159 for you know, sort of what happens next, Like the 0:26:30.200 --> 0:26:32.880 CFP would have to go through the normal appropriations process. 0:26:33.320 --> 0:26:35.200 How difficult do you see that being. 0:26:35.720 --> 0:26:38.320 Yeah, it's a fascinating question because of course, the Court 0:26:39.359 --> 0:26:41.200 if the Court's doing what courts are supposed to do. 0:26:41.240 --> 0:26:43.240 It doesn't really have the right to write legislation right 0:26:43.359 --> 0:26:46.000 has the right to strike it out. So if that 0:26:46.040 --> 0:26:50.840 particular provision is unconstitutional, then do you have to write 0:26:50.840 --> 0:26:53.080 a new appropriating section to the to the bill where 0:26:53.080 --> 0:26:55.399 that have to be passed? Would it automatically simply be 0:26:55.440 --> 0:26:58.640 treated as as something that's on appropriations for Congress. It's 0:26:58.640 --> 0:27:02.080 a really good quest question and goes to the larger issue. 0:27:02.119 --> 0:27:05.320 Then larger issue is this is this is this whole 0:27:05.359 --> 0:27:08.320 thing constitutional in the first place. I never liked the 0:27:08.359 --> 0:27:10.680 place and folks. I'd like the people, but I never 0:27:10.760 --> 0:27:12.960 liked the idea. I shouldn't say that I like the 0:27:13.040 --> 0:27:16.720 idea of having one stop shopping for consumer protection. Somebody 0:27:16.760 --> 0:27:19.200 asked me. I did an interview I don't know about 0:27:19.200 --> 0:27:21.240 a year ago, and they said, what one nice thing 0:27:21.280 --> 0:27:24.720 can you say about Elizabeth Warren and the CFPV part 0:27:24.760 --> 0:27:28.159 of Dodd Frank And I said, the idea of having 0:27:28.320 --> 0:27:32.320 a single regulator when it comes to anything is really 0:27:32.400 --> 0:27:37.800 really powerful, And I think, good. You know that when 0:27:37.840 --> 0:27:40.520 I do work with all these European companies, they always 0:27:40.520 --> 0:27:42.439 ask me, well, you know, who's my regulator? Like, what 0:27:42.440 --> 0:27:43.560 do you do, and they tell them like, well, you've 0:27:43.560 --> 0:27:45.880 got four or five or six different regulators that they 0:27:46.040 --> 0:27:49.440 just drives them nuts. The concept of this one regulator, 0:27:49.480 --> 0:27:53.280 I think is an admirable sort of goal. That being said, 0:27:53.880 --> 0:27:56.919 this is the worst possible way to achieve it. And 0:27:57.000 --> 0:28:02.200 I really, really really wanted instruction from the White House 0:28:02.240 --> 0:28:04.680 to shut the place down and lock the doors and 0:28:04.720 --> 0:28:07.960 just pay the folks because I had to pay them legally, 0:28:08.080 --> 0:28:11.560 but not not allow the thing to exist. And that 0:28:11.640 --> 0:28:13.680 was in the middle of the Mueller investigation. I remember 0:28:13.720 --> 0:28:15.399 the White House counsel at the Times look at me 0:28:15.440 --> 0:28:17.040 and said, Mick, I got bigger things to worry about 0:28:17.080 --> 0:28:19.160 the CFPB, just go over there and do what you can. 0:28:19.240 --> 0:28:23.159 And so we were that close to actually shuddering the 0:28:23.200 --> 0:28:26.200 place and seeing what happened after that. But that goes 0:28:26.240 --> 0:28:29.000 back to your Dunkin Donuts question. So as it was 0:28:29.080 --> 0:28:31.200 why I did that because it was a very interesting 0:28:31.240 --> 0:28:34.440 relationship with the with the organization when I was there, 0:28:34.440 --> 0:28:36.480 because I didn't like it from the get go. 0:28:37.680 --> 0:28:39.160 So does that mean that we can say that you're 0:28:39.160 --> 0:28:41.800 a dunkin Donuts fan and Krispy Kreme not so much? 0:28:41.960 --> 0:28:44.840 Or was it more just on your way to work. 0:28:45.160 --> 0:28:46.520 It was all my way to work. It was. It 0:28:46.560 --> 0:28:48.000 was a trick that we learned. It was a very 0:28:48.000 --> 0:28:50.880 interesting insight into Washington, d C. And how Washington works. 0:28:50.920 --> 0:28:52.479 It was a trick I learned when I was in Congress. 0:28:52.480 --> 0:28:55.720 Whenever we had protesters at my district office back here 0:28:55.720 --> 0:28:58.320 in South Carolina, we would feed them and you know, 0:28:58.440 --> 0:29:00.760 go get pizza and get donuts whatever, and just say, look, 0:29:00.800 --> 0:29:03.560 you're welcome, we love the fact you're here protesting. You know, 0:29:03.800 --> 0:29:05.520 we're not gonna be nasty about it. Have you all 0:29:05.560 --> 0:29:08.840 had lunch and your constituents for the most part, And 0:29:09.240 --> 0:29:11.200 you know, we'd get your get your coffee, donuts, and 0:29:11.200 --> 0:29:12.640 you know, sit and chat about the issues, and you 0:29:12.640 --> 0:29:14.080 can protest you want to, and you know, we'll go 0:29:14.080 --> 0:29:16.840 about our business. So I figured we'd do that, and 0:29:16.840 --> 0:29:20.560 I we're gonna was gonna take these donuts to the 0:29:20.640 --> 0:29:22.960 protesters on my way to work. I go to work 0:29:23.000 --> 0:29:25.280 fairly early. I think I was there at seven or 0:29:25.280 --> 0:29:27.200 seven thirty in the morning, and I had all these 0:29:27.240 --> 0:29:31.600 donuts and there were no protesters yet. And I got credit, 0:29:31.640 --> 0:29:34.680 by the way, for bringing the employees, the folks who 0:29:34.680 --> 0:29:36.600 worked there donuts on my first day, and we got 0:29:36.680 --> 0:29:38.440 good press out of that, But the truth of the 0:29:38.480 --> 0:29:40.960 matter was it was for the protesters who didn't show 0:29:41.000 --> 0:29:44.560 up until nine o'clock. And what I learned later was 0:29:44.600 --> 0:29:48.560 that these were protesters for hire and that they weren't 0:29:48.600 --> 0:29:51.400 supposed They weren't on the clock until nine o'clock. So 0:29:51.440 --> 0:29:53.000 it was a little bit different than the folks I 0:29:53.040 --> 0:29:54.840 dealt with back home, and that was that was a 0:29:54.880 --> 0:29:57.840 really interesting insight into how to Washington works. The protest 0:29:57.880 --> 0:30:01.120 for higher business is a cottage industry in Washington, DC, 0:30:01.240 --> 0:30:04.360 and I think that's just an absolutely fascinating sort of 0:30:04.440 --> 0:30:05.960 sidebar to how the town works. 0:30:06.240 --> 0:30:09.160 I think that might be the biggest takeaway from this episode, 0:30:09.240 --> 0:30:11.000 that if you're going to be protest and you want 0:30:11.000 --> 0:30:12.640 to get there early because you may get donuts out 0:30:12.640 --> 0:30:12.840 of it. 0:30:13.560 --> 0:30:16.560 Yeah. Oh, and to your point, a Krispy Kreme man, 0:30:16.840 --> 0:30:19.080 I'm from the Carolinas and the Krispy kreman is down 0:30:19.080 --> 0:30:20.480 in Duncan Donuts. I don't know where they're from, but 0:30:20.520 --> 0:30:24.640 I grew up on Krispy Kreme Donuts. My son lives 0:30:24.760 --> 0:30:27.120 in Charlotte, North Carolina now, which is my hometown, and 0:30:27.120 --> 0:30:29.680 there's a Krispy Kreme donut place across the street, and 0:30:29.720 --> 0:30:32.200 they have a promotion which the when the Hot Donuts 0:30:32.240 --> 0:30:34.560 Now sign is on you get buy one, get one free. 0:30:34.880 --> 0:30:37.920 So it's being handed down in the family the clearly 0:30:38.000 --> 0:30:40.000 Krispy Kreme over Duncan every single time. 0:30:41.960 --> 0:30:44.280 That's great. So let's just let's start to do debt 0:30:44.280 --> 0:30:47.720 ceiling real quick, you know, just because obviously that's something 0:30:47.760 --> 0:30:49.760 that's always in the news cycle right now. You know. 0:30:49.800 --> 0:30:53.520 We even just saw recently that the Secretary of Treasury, 0:30:53.600 --> 0:30:57.000 Jennet Yellen, sent out the letter to Congress essentially saying 0:30:57.040 --> 0:31:01.440 June fifth is the date that ordinary measures runs out. 0:31:01.560 --> 0:31:01.760 You know. 0:31:01.880 --> 0:31:04.640 Our analysis says that it could go a little bit further, 0:31:04.760 --> 0:31:07.040 but we'd love to know what do you think is 0:31:07.080 --> 0:31:09.120 going to happen with the debt ceiling? Is this a 0:31:10.600 --> 0:31:13.400 is this a debt ceiling crisis? Will the US be 0:31:13.480 --> 0:31:15.520 able to avoid a breach? You know? And if so, 0:31:15.640 --> 0:31:17.200 do you have any thoughts on how they would do it? 0:31:17.960 --> 0:31:20.160 Yeah, we're going to raise the debt ceiling, Okay. The 0:31:20.240 --> 0:31:23.000 question is under what terms and conditions? What's going to 0:31:23.040 --> 0:31:26.000 be part of the deal. I think that's the right 0:31:26.040 --> 0:31:27.680 way to look at it. That's how Barack Obama looked 0:31:27.720 --> 0:31:29.280 at it. That's how John Bayner looked at it back 0:31:29.280 --> 0:31:30.840 in two thousand and When I think the lasting with this, 0:31:30.920 --> 0:31:34.800 twenty eleven or twenty thirteen, I can't remember. You know, 0:31:34.840 --> 0:31:37.720 you've got divided government in Washington, d C. You need 0:31:37.720 --> 0:31:40.760 to compromise on this. I cannot believe Biden is getting 0:31:41.640 --> 0:31:43.600 a free pass on his comments about how he's not 0:31:43.720 --> 0:31:45.760 going to negotiate on this. You're not going to negotiate 0:31:45.800 --> 0:31:48.240 on it? What's the justification for that? The law is 0:31:48.280 --> 0:31:50.600 what the law is, which is that you have a 0:31:50.640 --> 0:31:52.160 debt ceiling. Why do you have a dead ceiling? So 0:31:52.160 --> 0:31:54.160 that now now and then you have to raise it. 0:31:54.160 --> 0:31:56.040 You have a discussion about why you have to raise it. 0:31:56.080 --> 0:31:59.280 That's why we have it. If Biden is right and 0:31:59.280 --> 0:32:01.960 you don't have any negotiations and there's no compromise at all, 0:32:02.000 --> 0:32:04.880 I'm raising the dead ceiling, then the dead seling doesn't 0:32:04.920 --> 0:32:06.000 need to be there at all. Now. I know a 0:32:06.040 --> 0:32:08.520 lot of Democrats feel that there shouldn't be a debt 0:32:08.560 --> 0:32:11.600 ceiling law, but there is one. And last time I checked, 0:32:11.680 --> 0:32:14.080 you know, there's swarmed up and hold the Constitution and 0:32:14.240 --> 0:32:17.240 the law is what the law is. So it's a 0:32:17.360 --> 0:32:19.440 very strange position to take, and I cannot believe he's 0:32:19.440 --> 0:32:22.320 getting as much a free pass as he is. Should 0:32:22.360 --> 0:32:24.840 he give in to everything the Republicans are asked going 0:32:24.880 --> 0:32:27.720 to be asking for the dead Celing Absolutely not, because 0:32:27.840 --> 0:32:30.000 the Democrats control the White House in the Senate. So 0:32:30.080 --> 0:32:31.640 I mean, if you want to do the simple math, 0:32:32.000 --> 0:32:33.800 you know it's a two third one third type of deal. 0:32:33.840 --> 0:32:35.960 The Democrats get a little something, the Republicans get a 0:32:35.960 --> 0:32:37.840 little something. Against how it gets raised. It's absolutely going 0:32:37.920 --> 0:32:42.760 to get raised as much as the former Tea Party 0:32:42.840 --> 0:32:44.960 House freedmcock of Sky and me says, Look, I don't 0:32:44.960 --> 0:32:46.280 think we should raise it at all, and I think 0:32:46.280 --> 0:32:48.720 we should look at prioritization of payments because the one 0:32:48.760 --> 0:32:52.800 thing that Washington lacks is a cost benefit analysis view 0:32:52.840 --> 0:32:56.920 on life. They never measure one project against another. They 0:32:56.960 --> 0:32:59.640 just measured against what they want, and they never have 0:32:59.680 --> 0:33:01.719 to cheer use between two or three things. That's how 0:33:01.760 --> 0:33:03.560 you get thirty one trillion dollars of debt. And by 0:33:03.600 --> 0:33:05.760 the way, both parties have done that to us, not 0:33:06.400 --> 0:33:10.360 the Democrats alone that have put us here. So I 0:33:10.360 --> 0:33:12.360 think it's going to be great whaling and gnashing of teeth, 0:33:12.360 --> 0:33:15.080 as there always is on every government shutdown and every 0:33:15.080 --> 0:33:18.000 debt sealing crisis. There's going to be all these horror 0:33:18.040 --> 0:33:20.120 stories written about defaulting on the debt and what it 0:33:20.120 --> 0:33:22.120 means for the world economy and the reserve status of 0:33:22.120 --> 0:33:24.280 the currency and all that. And that's just you know, 0:33:24.480 --> 0:33:27.320 media hoping for a plane crash because it sells more 0:33:29.360 --> 0:33:32.960 newspapers than a plane landing on time and safely. But 0:33:33.040 --> 0:33:36.240 I think, you know, the last sixty four times we've 0:33:36.280 --> 0:33:38.600 done this, we've done it, and I think the sixty 0:33:38.600 --> 0:33:40.040 fifth time, and I'm making up that number. I can't 0:33:40.040 --> 0:33:42.240 remember howy times we raise it is going to be 0:33:42.320 --> 0:33:46.000 the same. Is there going to be political negotiations? I hope. 0:33:46.040 --> 0:33:48.600 So that's how that's how the government is supposed to work. 0:33:49.320 --> 0:33:52.480 And I hope if anybody, if anybody refuses to negotiate, 0:33:52.480 --> 0:33:56.280 that they get called out for violating the spirit of 0:33:56.320 --> 0:33:57.440 the law, if not the letter. 0:33:58.840 --> 0:34:01.800 You know, just one last question for me, is really 0:34:01.840 --> 0:34:04.120 the usage of ESG has gotten a lot of criticism 0:34:04.160 --> 0:34:06.760 from Republicans over the last couple of years, especially when 0:34:06.800 --> 0:34:10.040 you talk about banks. In the usage of ESG, you know, 0:34:10.080 --> 0:34:14.120 we even just saw recently a tweet from Representative Scalise 0:34:14.600 --> 0:34:17.160 saying that CEOs are going to have to come testify 0:34:17.360 --> 0:34:20.480 about these practices and so forth like that. You know, 0:34:20.560 --> 0:34:22.759 what would you think? I guess what is what's going 0:34:22.840 --> 0:34:25.480 to happen with specifically in your old committee, the House 0:34:25.520 --> 0:34:28.400 Financial Services Committee and some of the other House committees 0:34:28.440 --> 0:34:31.000 in terms of ESG and how banks are CEO is 0:34:31.000 --> 0:34:33.440 going to be testifying? Is there going to be legislation? 0:34:33.800 --> 0:34:36.279 And what is I think the Republican goal for this year. 0:34:37.560 --> 0:34:39.440 Well, I think the Republican goal is to is to 0:34:39.480 --> 0:34:43.240 simply not allow corporations to have it both ways, especially 0:34:43.280 --> 0:34:46.920 big corporations. Look for my entire adult lifetime for the 0:34:46.960 --> 0:34:49.319 last century, I don't know how long it goes back, 0:34:49.360 --> 0:34:53.080 but you know, corporations have usually taken the position. Look, 0:34:53.719 --> 0:34:56.840 we get involved in policy, especially as it relates to 0:34:56.840 --> 0:34:59.400 our business, but we don't get involved with politics. We 0:34:59.480 --> 0:35:01.879 gived about sides. We give to neither side. We are 0:35:01.920 --> 0:35:05.800 not a political creature. Okay. We are in the business 0:35:05.800 --> 0:35:08.440 of making widgets. We want to make widgets as well 0:35:08.440 --> 0:35:11.719 as well as we can to increase returns to our 0:35:11.760 --> 0:35:13.840 to our owners, to our shareholders to keep our employees 0:35:14.160 --> 0:35:16.600 safe and employed and so forth, and we don't get 0:35:16.600 --> 0:35:19.160 involved in stuff that's outside of our lane. That is 0:35:19.320 --> 0:35:24.640 changing dramatically with ESG. And it does not surprise me that, 0:35:25.040 --> 0:35:27.680 you know, the Republicans, because they're on the short end 0:35:27.719 --> 0:35:30.000 of the stick here, are pushing back by saying, look, 0:35:30.000 --> 0:35:32.000 you want to get involved in politics, welcome to the game. 0:35:32.560 --> 0:35:34.239 We'd like to come down and testify next week and 0:35:34.239 --> 0:35:37.040 tell us what you're up to, because that's that's the business. 0:35:37.600 --> 0:35:40.480 And I have to imagine, I have to imagine that 0:35:40.480 --> 0:35:43.400 the folks have made the decision to go down this 0:35:43.719 --> 0:35:47.239 ESG road took that into consideration if they really thought, 0:35:47.239 --> 0:35:49.640 if the corporate leadership of pick a company that's heavily 0:35:49.680 --> 0:35:51.319 involved in the ESG, I won't pick on anybody in 0:35:51.360 --> 0:35:53.799 this podcast, said you know what, we think we're going 0:35:53.880 --> 0:35:55.880 to get involved on these social issues and we're going 0:35:55.920 --> 0:35:57.480 to be able to do it without any you know, 0:35:57.600 --> 0:35:59.920 pushback at all from some of our political friends. And watch. 0:36:00.320 --> 0:36:06.520 That may be the most naive leadership mistake I've seen 0:36:06.920 --> 0:36:12.880 this century, but clearly it must have happened because now 0:36:12.920 --> 0:36:16.000 you're seeing that the one group there's only a couple 0:36:16.000 --> 0:36:18.200 of groups in Washington that have no friends right now. 0:36:19.040 --> 0:36:22.600 It is China, to a lesser extent, Big Tech, and 0:36:22.640 --> 0:36:25.920 then any major corporation that's going esg. They'll never do 0:36:26.080 --> 0:36:28.920 enough to satisfy the Democrats, and they've done enough to 0:36:29.000 --> 0:36:32.279 upset the Republicans. The Chamber US Chamber of Commerce is 0:36:32.320 --> 0:36:35.480 perhaps the most poorly run organization politically that I have 0:36:35.600 --> 0:36:39.120 ever seen in my entire life. They've managed to alienate 0:36:39.160 --> 0:36:42.360 their base and not pick up any friends on the 0:36:42.400 --> 0:36:44.920 other side. And that is really, really, really hard to do. 0:36:44.960 --> 0:36:46.400 It's almost like you have to set out to do that. 0:36:46.440 --> 0:36:49.160 In Washington, d C. There was an interview, there was 0:36:49.200 --> 0:36:52.000 an article the other day about the role the Chamber played, 0:36:52.040 --> 0:36:54.600 and the person who runs it now was asked, have 0:36:54.640 --> 0:36:56.680 they talked to Kevin McCarthy, you know, since Kevin was 0:36:56.719 --> 0:36:58.799 made speaker, and the person dodged the question, and I 0:36:58.840 --> 0:37:01.040 know the answer least I knew the answer is a 0:37:01.080 --> 0:37:03.360 couple of days ago, which is no chance. No Republican 0:37:03.400 --> 0:37:05.160 wants to be seen with the United States Chamber of 0:37:05.200 --> 0:37:08.000 Commerce right now. That actually hurts you in a primary. 0:37:08.120 --> 0:37:11.279 That is a tremendous destruction of the brand, and it 0:37:11.320 --> 0:37:14.880 comes from getting involved out of you, getting out of 0:37:14.880 --> 0:37:16.920 your lane, getting out of your depth, and getting involved 0:37:16.960 --> 0:37:19.920 in politics, which is what ESG is. So it's a 0:37:19.960 --> 0:37:22.319 fascinating case study. Be curious to see where it goes 0:37:22.320 --> 0:37:24.759 from here. I don't know where corporate America goes for 0:37:24.920 --> 0:37:27.080 friends in Washington, d C. But it could be a 0:37:27.120 --> 0:37:28.600 long road back out of the desert. 0:37:29.719 --> 0:37:32.440 Yeah, that's super fascinating. All right, So I think we're 0:37:32.440 --> 0:37:35.960 gonna move away from some of the substantive topics and 0:37:36.000 --> 0:37:38.520 sort of go to what we're calling our grab bag questions. 0:37:39.719 --> 0:37:42.360 You mentioned Kevin McCarthy, so I thought i'd ask you, 0:37:42.400 --> 0:37:45.719 do you miss doing in Congress? Do you wish you 0:37:45.719 --> 0:37:48.560 were in Congress now, particularly with the you know, the 0:37:48.600 --> 0:37:50.480 speakership threat that we saw a couple of weeks ago. 0:37:51.640 --> 0:37:54.640 You know, I missed the collegiality, you know, I missed 0:37:54.680 --> 0:37:56.920 the I missed the men and women I worked with. 0:37:57.120 --> 0:37:59.040 In fact, that was even different from being in the administration. 0:37:59.080 --> 0:38:02.319 Administration is very highierarchical place. I had one boss and 0:38:02.360 --> 0:38:04.839 at one point I had you know, two thousand employees 0:38:05.520 --> 0:38:08.319 on the hill. I had five hundred and thirty five colleagues. Well, 0:38:08.360 --> 0:38:09.799 I had four hundred and thirty five colleagues and then 0:38:09.800 --> 0:38:11.160 one hundred people who thought they were in the House 0:38:11.200 --> 0:38:14.279 of Lords. But that's another that's another question entitely, but 0:38:14.440 --> 0:38:16.880 there is a certain collegiality in a legislative branch that 0:38:16.920 --> 0:38:21.720 doesn't exist in the executivenchure, and it certainly doesn't exist 0:38:21.760 --> 0:38:24.080 necessarily even in business, which is a little bit more 0:38:24.320 --> 0:38:30.400 you know, executive sort of driven world. So I miss that. No, 0:38:30.560 --> 0:38:34.840 I don't miss the BS. I was in Washington. I 0:38:34.880 --> 0:38:36.440 was on the floor in fact, for a lot of 0:38:36.480 --> 0:38:38.319 the McCarthy stuff is in the chamber. I still have 0:38:38.360 --> 0:38:40.440 that privilege, thankfully. Once you're a member, you can always 0:38:40.440 --> 0:38:44.920 go on the floor and participated in that. Was stunned 0:38:44.960 --> 0:38:46.759 by some of the similarities what it was like when 0:38:46.800 --> 0:38:48.520 I was there, and some of the differences, some of 0:38:48.520 --> 0:38:50.680 the personalities that were the same, and some new folks 0:38:50.680 --> 0:38:53.160 who would come in. So it's a fascinating dynamic. I 0:38:53.239 --> 0:38:56.160 find it very interesting. That's one of the reasons I enjoyed. 0:38:56.239 --> 0:38:58.319 You know, whatever work I do, I still interact with 0:38:58.320 --> 0:39:01.600 Congress a good bit because it's just it's it's never boring. 0:39:02.719 --> 0:39:05.239 But no, I don't I don't want to make a 0:39:05.239 --> 0:39:06.839 living doing that. People ask me all the time if 0:39:06.880 --> 0:39:10.200 I'm going back into elected politics, and I'm like, oh, 0:39:10.239 --> 0:39:12.360 absolutely not. And I said one. I said, because I 0:39:12.400 --> 0:39:14.520 got tired of being nice to people that I don't like. 0:39:15.880 --> 0:39:17.600 I'm just too old for that now. And you have 0:39:17.680 --> 0:39:19.440 to do that in a legislative branch. And I'm not 0:39:19.480 --> 0:39:21.759 any good at it. So Kevin's good at it, and 0:39:21.960 --> 0:39:24.840 he's managed to keep this conference together. You know, he 0:39:24.880 --> 0:39:27.319 asked that he'd be judged by how it finishes rather 0:39:27.400 --> 0:39:29.520 than how it began. I think that's right. I think 0:39:29.520 --> 0:39:33.799 the interesting corollary to that, though, wasn't finished yet. He's 0:39:33.840 --> 0:39:35.600 got to get through these next two years and and 0:39:35.640 --> 0:39:37.840 see what he can do, see if he can. You know, 0:39:37.840 --> 0:39:40.319 he's gonna, invariably, Matt Gates is going to make the 0:39:40.360 --> 0:39:43.200 motion to vacate the chair. That was the one thing 0:39:43.239 --> 0:39:46.560 that Matt wanted. Matt insisted on a one person threshold 0:39:46.600 --> 0:39:49.239 for that instead of five. My opinion is that Matt 0:39:49.280 --> 0:39:51.400 did it because that gives Matt the ability to do 0:39:51.440 --> 0:39:53.319 it by himself, as supposed to having to convince four 0:39:53.320 --> 0:39:55.759 people to go along with him. So he'll be on TV, 0:39:56.040 --> 0:39:58.200 you know, three times a week. This year threatening to 0:39:58.320 --> 0:40:00.400 vacate the chair, because that's what a lot of us 0:40:00.480 --> 0:40:04.399 was about, was about getting people on TV, getting their 0:40:04.480 --> 0:40:07.000 Q ratings up, getting the social media, preparing them for 0:40:07.120 --> 0:40:10.520 running for higher office governor, senate, president, et cetera. That 0:40:10.600 --> 0:40:14.720 kind of stuff that that high school crap. I don't miss, 0:40:15.680 --> 0:40:17.840 but it's certainly still prevalent in Washington, d C. And 0:40:17.840 --> 0:40:21.000 that's probably inevitable. So no, I don't I don't miss it, 0:40:21.000 --> 0:40:22.920 but I still enjoying watching it from a distance. 0:40:24.400 --> 0:40:26.120 All right, So we have time for I think one 0:40:26.200 --> 0:40:30.480 last question, So we'll ask you if you know, if 0:40:30.520 --> 0:40:34.520 you were standing on a desert island, what what three 0:40:34.560 --> 0:40:35.839 pieces of music would you take? 0:40:36.360 --> 0:40:39.799 Ooh do these singles, these albums, what are they up 0:40:39.800 --> 0:40:40.040 to you? 0:40:40.160 --> 0:40:40.480 Up to you? 0:40:40.880 --> 0:40:43.600 Yeah, I would take I would take I would take. 0:40:43.880 --> 0:40:45.520 The first thing I would take would be would be 0:40:45.560 --> 0:40:50.200 I'd take something from Dire Straits, probably something from the Beatles, 0:40:50.760 --> 0:40:53.359 probably the White Album because it counts as two. And 0:40:53.400 --> 0:40:57.799 then something I still enjoy classical music, so something from 0:40:57.800 --> 0:40:59.719 Mozart because it's an interesting change of pay. So if 0:40:59.760 --> 0:41:01.560 I had three pieces of music, that would be it 0:41:02.840 --> 0:41:04.960 deep deep, deep down in my heart, I know that 0:41:04.960 --> 0:41:06.799 I would want to put Pet Shop Boys on that 0:41:06.840 --> 0:41:09.680 list because I'm still an eighties music addict, but I 0:41:09.719 --> 0:41:12.240 would never admit that in public because it really undermines 0:41:12.280 --> 0:41:15.839 my my reputation, not with us. 0:41:15.880 --> 0:41:17.560 At least, not with you. I can't think for Nathan, 0:41:17.640 --> 0:41:20.759 but as a charter the eighties, I also think that 0:41:20.840 --> 0:41:22.640 music is really underappreciated. 0:41:22.680 --> 0:41:25.719 Actually, it's happy, fun music, and I like, you know, 0:41:25.719 --> 0:41:27.719 for the most part, I like listen. I like people 0:41:27.719 --> 0:41:29.640 who like what they do. I like people are happy 0:41:29.680 --> 0:41:31.560 with their lives. I like people are happy in their marriage. 0:41:31.560 --> 0:41:33.000 I just it's I think it's it's one of those 0:41:33.000 --> 0:41:35.320 things that makes life worth living. And I think a 0:41:35.320 --> 0:41:37.400 lot of the music of that era was was was 0:41:37.400 --> 0:41:39.440 was just fun music, and I enjoy it. 0:41:39.680 --> 0:41:42.080 Yeah, I think it's aged. Well, go ahead, and. 0:41:42.040 --> 0:41:44.400 Eliot Ellian, I think we need to talk to Bloomberg 0:41:44.440 --> 0:41:46.080 about seeing if we can get that as our opening 0:41:46.200 --> 0:41:46.920 theme song for this. 0:41:49.680 --> 0:41:52.480 Yeah, my piece for our copyright issues, all right, So 0:41:52.760 --> 0:41:55.719 I think with that we'll wrap up this inaugural episode 0:41:55.760 --> 0:41:59.920 of Votes and Verdicts. We are extremely grateful to direct A. 0:42:00.080 --> 0:42:03.160 Mulvainy for appearing on this episode as our first guest 0:42:03.239 --> 0:42:08.239 ever and for all his really interesting insights. So thank 0:42:08.239 --> 0:42:10.680 you Director mulvaney, and we thank you the listener for 0:42:10.719 --> 0:42:13.160 taking the time to join us. As well as a 0:42:13.200 --> 0:42:16.280 reminder you can read all of our Bloomberg intelligence research 0:42:16.360 --> 0:42:19.799 on the Bloomberg terminal at THEI Go And with that, 0:42:20.080 --> 0:42:29.960 thank you and have a great day.