1 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:05,720 Speaker 1: In the fall of two thousand and four, Terry Caesar 2 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: and his son were living in Poor Huron, Michigan, occasionally 3 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:11,559 Speaker 1: staying with his girlfriend, Cheryl, her six year old daughter, Darien, 4 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: and sixteen month old son Brendan. On the morning of 5 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: October three, Cheryl and her daughter were out while Terry 6 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: stayed home with the sleeping toddler. When they returned, Terry 7 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: was panicked and Brenton was unconscious and struggling to breathe. 8 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 1: They rushed him to the hospital, where he was given 9 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: a cat scan and then transferred to Children's Hospital in Detroit. 10 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: The child recovered after a few days, but by then 11 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: a pediatric neurosurgeon had ruled that bleeding on the brain 12 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: indicated that Brendan had been the victim of violence shaking, 13 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: and Terry was immediately the number one suspect, Although he 14 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 1: maintained that Brendan had fallen from the couch, Terry was 15 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: arrested and charged with first degree child abuse. At trial, 16 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: the doctor testified that the findings associated with shaking baby 17 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: syndrome present and could not have been caused by the 18 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: shortfall that Terry had described. It would seem highly unlikely 19 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: that an experienced pediatric neurosurgeon could be mistaken, but this 20 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. I'm Jason 21 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: Flahman today once again talking about a case that revolves 22 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: around the hypothesis that has never been tested, but somehow, 23 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:44,759 Speaker 1: inexplicably became the accepted orthodoxy of fallback, whatever you want 24 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: to call it, of the medical community. And thankfully it's 25 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 1: long since been debunked. And of course I'm talking about 26 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: shaken baby syndrome or SBS. Now Terry Caesar spent almost 27 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 1: four years in prison because of this faulty diagnosis and 28 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: more than a decade trying to clear his name. So Terry, 29 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: I'm sorry for what you went through man, But welcome 30 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:10,079 Speaker 1: to wraful conviction. Thank you, well, You're welcome and joining 31 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: us as the co founder and co director of the 32 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: Michigan Innoscence Clinic and Michigan Law School. Dave Moran, Thanks Dave. 33 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: I understand that you and the Michigan Innisce Clinic I 34 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 1: have already exonerated six people and counting of this non 35 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: existent crime. And we've talked about this so many times, 36 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: most recently with Zavi on Johnson John Jones and Ohio 37 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 1: Robert robertson who's on death row in Texas to this day. 38 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: The list is long, and one case is more horrifying 39 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: than the last one. We did a full breakdown of 40 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 1: sbs SO Shaking Baby Centroume on wraeful Conviction junk Science 41 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: with our host Josh Dubin and the executive director of 42 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 1: the Center for Integrity and Forensic Sciences, Kate Judson, and 43 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: Kate is going to join us a bit later. Now. 44 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: Terry's case happened back in two thousand and four, when 45 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: most of the medical establishments still seem to just reflexively 46 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: jump to the conclusion and that if a kid was 47 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: in some sort of terrible distress and the triad of 48 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 1: findings were there brain bleed, brain swelling, and bleeding behind 49 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 1: the eyes, that automatically well must be diagnostic of child abuse. 50 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:16,239 Speaker 2: But already by that point there were challenges to shaking 51 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 2: baby syndrome, and of course Terry's case revolves around that, 52 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:21,679 Speaker 2: is that the challenge to shaking baby syndrome should have 53 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 2: been presented. 54 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 1: John Plunkett had already done his seminal project on the subject, 55 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: and biomechanical research into car seat safety had already begun 56 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:32,799 Speaker 1: to shred the viability of what was thought to be 57 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: established science. We now know it's junk science. But unfortunately 58 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: Terry's attorney didn't realize the court was constitutionally bound to 59 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: provide funding for an expert defense witness. And we're going 60 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: to get into that a bit later on. But first, Terry, 61 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: you grew up in Port Huron, Michigan, right all my 62 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: life now, way before this happened. You had a son 63 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: named Cody, and a little after he was born, you 64 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: had a brush with an event in which there was 65 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 1: a sick child that a young woman had claimed was 66 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: your child. This was all the way back in nineteen 67 00:03:58,960 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: ninety five. 68 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 3: So it was a girl. She was already three or 69 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 3: four months pregnant when we had slept together. One day 70 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 3: in like June ninety five, this girl shows up at 71 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 3: my house with this baby in the stroller, telling me 72 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 3: it's my son, and something was wrong with the baby. 73 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 3: The baby wasn't breathing right. Ambulance took the kid from 74 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 3: my house. So they tried saying that I was the 75 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 3: father of this child. So I went through everything proven 76 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:22,559 Speaker 3: that I wasn't the father. I took a DNA test. 77 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:24,919 Speaker 1: But unbeknownst to you, your name had been on this 78 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 1: central registry in Michigan ever since nineteen ninety five, just 79 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 1: for having been mentioned in the same breath of another 80 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 1: child who had been brought into a hospital from your home. Right. 81 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 3: So, this is the craziest thing is I found out 82 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 3: about this in twenty twenty one. This was never brought 83 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 3: up in my two thousand and four case. But they 84 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 3: did use this against me in my two thousand and 85 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 3: four case, and I have paperwork to prove it. 86 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: Right, And as we so often see in rompic conviction cases, 87 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 1: is that sometimes the police are motivated by someone's criminal record, 88 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 1: and in this case, a perceived criminal record. Now, like 89 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 1: you said, you didn't find out about this in twenty 90 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 1: twenty one, and we're going to get back to that later. 91 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: But Terry, let's go to your life at the time 92 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: of this incident. In two thousand and four, you were 93 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 1: thirty three years old, a single dad. Your son Cody 94 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 1: was around thirteen, right, tell me about him and about 95 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: your life together. 96 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 3: He was an honorable student, all star athlete. He wrestled football, basketball, baseball, 97 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 3: We played hockey. We would go camp and fishing. It 98 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 3: was a great father son. But we were like best 99 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 3: friends at the same. 100 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 1: And at that time, you were also in a relationship 101 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 1: with a woman named Cheryl Ganna, and she had a 102 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: couple of kids too, Darien, her six year old daughter, 103 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 1: and Brendan, who was about sixteen months old. 104 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 3: The kids got along great. We had weekends where the 105 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 3: kids would be with us, and then we had weekends 106 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 3: where the kids would go with the other parents. So 107 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 3: we had our time, we had family time. Everything was good, 108 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 3: all right. 109 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 1: Were you living together at the time. 110 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 3: No, she had her own place. We would stay like 111 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 3: back and forth between the two. 112 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: So let's go now to October third, two thousand and four. 113 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: You and Cheryl were together with her kids at your place, 114 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: So tell me about that. 115 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 3: Sunday morning, my son Cody spent the night at his 116 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 3: friend Tyler Brown's house. Darien, Brendan, and Cheryl were with 117 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 3: me at the house and while we were eating breakfast, 118 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 3: Darien was talking about that she wanted to go swimming. 119 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,799 Speaker 3: Brendan's still sleeping at this time because he's been sick. 120 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 3: He had fallen at daycare the Thursday before this weekend 121 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:28,600 Speaker 3: that he was with us, So she was going to 122 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 3: have Brendan go to his grandma's house, and I told her, 123 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 3: I says, if you guys are only going to be 124 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 3: gone for like an hour hour and a half, just 125 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 3: let him sleep a little over an hour after they left, 126 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 3: Brendan woke up. I took him out of the bedroom, 127 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 3: got him some stuff to eat. I finished up feeding them, 128 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 3: went into the kitchen to put the spoon in the 129 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 3: sink and throw the stuff away, and he was standing 130 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:50,599 Speaker 3: up on my couch with his back towards me, looking 131 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 3: forward at the TV. So I got down on my 132 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 3: hands and knees and came up around the couch and 133 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 3: was playing Gotcha. This was something that we did all 134 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:00,359 Speaker 3: the time. He was going back and forth on the couch, 135 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 3: you know, trying to get away from me, tickleing them. 136 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 3: And while I was doing that, I had to use 137 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:07,159 Speaker 3: the bathroom. It was like right around the corner. I'm 138 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 3: like five feet away, but I just can't see because 139 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 3: there's a corner there. From while I'm going to the bathroom, 140 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 3: I hear a thang thud, and then it's just complete 141 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 3: silence besides the TV going, and you knew something was wrong. 142 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 3: So I came out and I don't see Brendan. I 143 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 3: take a couple more steps into the living room, and 144 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 3: then I see Brendan in between my couch and my table. 145 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 3: His legs are going up the couch, his butt is 146 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 3: on the floor, and his left shoulder is like popped 147 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 3: up against the leg of my table. But he's like 148 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 3: he's like slouched back, and his head's back like limp noodled. 149 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: And with this fall happening between the couch and the 150 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: coffee table, potentially there was an impact on the table 151 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: before the impact with the floor. So you ran over 152 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: to him, like any loving parent would. 153 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 3: I grab his head and support his head, and I 154 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 3: picked Brendan up, and as soon as his head comes forward, 155 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 3: some blood trickles of his mouth, so I look in 156 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 3: his mouth, and he bit his tongue so I can 157 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 3: start to see like a bruising on his forehead, and 158 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 3: then it looked like a carpet mark, like little red 159 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 3: dots on the spot in the back of his head. 160 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 3: And you know, he's like barely breathing. 161 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: And I understand that Cheryl and Darien got home right 162 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: after this. 163 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 3: Happened, and I told her Brendan fell and he's unresponsive. 164 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 3: We go support your own hospital, and within a minute 165 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 3: or two they have him alert, crying, you know, so 166 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 3: I'm relieved. 167 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: Right good, So it seems like this is where that 168 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: story really should have ended. 169 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 3: The hospital staff kept telling me like, don't worry, your 170 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 3: son's going to be fine, and I'm like, I'm not 171 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 3: the father, I'm her boyfriend, and everything from that point changed. 172 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 1: Meanwhile, the emergency room position, doctor Hunt noticed that one 173 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: of Brendan's pupils was dilated more than the other, so 174 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 1: he ordered a cat scan and that scan showed a 175 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 1: subdualhematoma or bleeding in the brain that was having a 176 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: mass effect, meaning that it was pushing the brain to 177 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: one side. So he ordered to transfer to Children's Hospital 178 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: and did you right by ambulance to see a pediatric neurosurgeon. 179 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: With the first of the findings showing up, it appears 180 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: that suspicion was aroused that only continued to grow as 181 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: they were hearing back from the specialist, doctor Gilmer Hill. 182 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:16,559 Speaker 2: In some of these hospitals, you have people who are 183 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 2: really firmly committed to the shaken baby hypothesis. It's kind 184 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 2: of like the hammer looking for the nail, and they're 185 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 2: quick to diagnose it. Doctor gilmour Hill is the one 186 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 2: who concludes this is child abases. She becomes the star 187 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 2: witness against Terry at his trial. 188 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: And then, of course they've called in CPS and detectives 189 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: at this point, and unfortunately Cheryl made an unfortunate choice. 190 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 3: Cheryl spoke with the detective and the CPS before I did, 191 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,079 Speaker 3: and said that they want to talk to me and 192 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 3: that she told them that she was there and she 193 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 3: picked up Brendan. 194 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: That wasn't true. Of course, why do you think Cheryl 195 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: said that so? 196 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 2: I think she panicked. She was afraid that it would 197 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 2: somehow look bad on her if she admitted that Brendan 198 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:00,599 Speaker 2: had been injured while he would in the care of 199 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 2: a boyfriend. 200 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 3: I have no idea what to say now, I'm already 201 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 3: being looked at here and being detained, So like a dummy, 202 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 3: I agreed and said that she was there and she 203 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 3: picked them up. So Cheryl's brother was a deputy sheriff 204 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 3: and his wife at the time. She took it amongst 205 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 3: herself to call the Sheriff's department and talk to a 206 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 3: detective and let them know that you might want to 207 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 3: talk with Cheryl again because the story she gave you, 208 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 3: wasn't the truth. 209 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:41,439 Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by global law firm Greenberg Trauig. 210 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:44,559 Speaker 1: Through its pro bono program, Greenberg Trowig leverages it's more 211 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: than twenty six hundred lawyers across forty four offices to 212 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 1: serve the greater good of our communities and provide equal 213 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: access to justice for all. In the field of criminal justice, 214 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 1: Greenberg Trowrig attorneys have exonerated and freedomanded Philadelphia represent numerous 215 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: individuals previous sentenced to life for crimes committed as juveniles 216 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: and resentencing hearings, and received the American Bar Association's twenty 217 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: twenty one Exceptional Service Award for Death Penalty Representation for 218 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: their work on five death penalty cases. GT is reimagining 219 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: what big law can be because of a more just world. 220 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: Only happens by design. So even though Cheryl was trying 221 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: to be helpful, she made things worse. But that wasn't 222 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: the only thing. In flaming suspicions of the detectives and 223 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: CPS agents, of course, I'm referring to what they were 224 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: hearing from the pediatric neurosurgeon at Children's Hospital in Detroit 225 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: who was now examining Brendon doctor Gilmer Hill. 226 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 2: Who sees the swollen brain of the rtal hemorrhages and 227 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 2: a subdural humanitoma, and she's been taught in medical school 228 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 2: that you see those things. There's no other explanation for 229 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 2: it other than some really far out there things like 230 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 2: an unrestrained high speed crash or being dropped out of 231 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 2: a third story window. 232 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 1: Right, short falls not yet made it to the list 233 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 1: of potential causes of the findings previously reflexively associated with 234 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: the farce known as shaken baby syndrome. But since that time, 235 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: we've learned that that triad of findings can be caused 236 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: by a growing list of Currently, they might have had 237 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: eighty one non traumatic medical conditions in addition to short falls, 238 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 1: And unfortunately, in two thousand and four, these causes were 239 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: just beginning to be discovered. And since it's become abundantly 240 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:30,959 Speaker 1: clear that in the absence of a spinal injury, shaking 241 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:35,839 Speaker 1: cannot provide sufficient force to cause this triad of findings. 242 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: It just can't be done. That's how wrong the medical 243 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: establishment had it. So with that, you might not be 244 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: surprised to hear that doctor Gilmer Hill, in examining Brendan 245 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: and his cat scan for head trauma, being the hammer 246 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 1: looking for the nail, they completely missed the mark on 247 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 1: his forehead. She reported no external bruising, scalp swelling, or 248 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: other signs of trauma. That's in her report. Yet Cheryl 249 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: her family all folks who had no reason to protect Terry. 250 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: They're obviously going to be taking the side of the baby. 251 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: But they all noticed the mark on Brendan's forehead that 252 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 1: was about the size of a fifty cent piece that 253 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: would corroborate his version of events. 254 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 2: They saw it at Port Huron, and they saw it 255 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:15,319 Speaker 2: in Children's hospital, and there was a nurse in Port 256 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 2: Heuron who had seen the mark on the forehead, but 257 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 2: mysteriously doctor Gilmour Hill didn't. If there's an impact, you 258 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 2: would expect there to be some kind of mark or 259 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 2: some kind of bruise or an abrasion. If it's shaking 260 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,079 Speaker 2: and then slamming on a soft surface, you wouldn't necessarily 261 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 2: expect to see any marks. And so at trial then 262 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 2: the prosecutions argument is that you see there's no marks 263 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 2: in this baby. This baby didn't fall, this baby was shaken. 264 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 3: They contact me told me that I had a warrant 265 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 3: for my arrest. I went, turned myself in, bonded myself out. 266 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 3: You know. I was right back to Dad's at home, 267 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 3: Dad's working, you know. 268 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 1: And this arrest was inexplicably delayed until January two thousand 269 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: and five. Brendan had made a full recovery by then. 270 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,199 Speaker 1: Now neither Cheryl nor her family were pressing charges, so 271 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 1: perhaps they had to wait until Brenda's father would. Either way, 272 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 1: the state seemed hell bent on taking this to trial. 273 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: And I understand that your mother retains an attorney who 274 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: she knew from her mail carrier, which was a guy 275 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: named ken Lord. 276 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 3: My mom retained him for me. He told me it 277 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 3: was going to be ten to twenty thousand dollars for 278 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 3: me to retain this doctor to come speak in my behalf. 279 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 3: And like I said, I'm a single father with a 280 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 3: thirteen year old kid at the time. I'm living check 281 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 3: to check. I don't have a couple grand in my 282 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 3: bank account. I'm not living like that. 283 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. So ken Lord's mistake here, which we eventually many 284 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 2: years later confirmed with the Michigan Supreme Court, was believing 285 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 2: that he couldn't ask for money to help hire an 286 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 2: expert if his client was retained as opposed to being appointed, 287 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 2: that's just constitutionally wrong. The US Supreme Court had established 288 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 2: a decade and a half earlier that there is a 289 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 2: constitutional right to have an expert if an expert is 290 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 2: needed for the case, and ken Lord had already consulted 291 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 2: with a renowned expert, doctor Ferris Bandak. 292 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 1: Doctor Ferris Bandak, a renowned figure in the field of biomechanics, 293 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: were tested for in the very high profile Michael Peterson case. 294 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 2: Who was prepared to give very helpful testimony explaining the 295 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 2: problems with the shaken baby syndrome hypothesis, explaining why this 296 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 2: case wouldn't fit within it. And because Terry's mom had 297 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 2: retained Ken Lord, she was tapped out. She didn't have 298 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 2: the money to hire an expensive expert. 299 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: So you went to trial in December of two thousand 300 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: and five, and the trial was overseen by Judge of 301 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: Dare And of course the state was leaning heavily on 302 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: the testimony of doctor Gilmer Hill, the neurosurgeon who had 303 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 1: seen Brendan had Children's Hospital in Detroit. 304 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 4: I'm Kate Judson, the executive director of the Center for 305 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 4: Integrity and Forensic Sciences, In the case of Terry Caesar, 306 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 4: there were conflicting reports about whether sixteen month old Brendan 307 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 4: had any external injuries. The external injuries that were reported 308 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 4: could account for a potential impact site on his head 309 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 4: with either the coffee table, the floor, or both. A 310 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 4: CT scan showed subdural hematoma, and upon further investigation by 311 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 4: the state's star witness pediatric neurosurgeon, doctor Gilmer Hill, she 312 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 4: also noted brain swelling and right hemorrhage, the triad of 313 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 4: findings often associated with the faulty hypothesis of SPS. She 314 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 4: reported no external injuries and importantly the absence of any 315 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 4: fractures or neck injury. She concluded that Brendan's injuries were 316 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 4: the result of violent shaking and could only otherwise be 317 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 4: caused by a fall from a second story window or 318 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 4: a high velocity car crash, and not by the shortfall 319 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 4: Terry had described. Now Terry's an attorney had consulted with 320 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 4: an expert, doctor Bendeck, who put a background at engineering, 321 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 4: he would have testified to our current understanding of injury 322 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 4: kinematics that a short fall could cause injuries just like Brendan's. 323 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 4: Terry's attorney also raised the work of doctor Gettis and 324 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 4: doctor Plunkett, as well as doctor Gregory Riber, who had 325 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 4: testified for the state against Zavion Johnson just three years prior. 326 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 4: At Zavian's trial, he said that a short fall with 327 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 4: an impact could not cause the triad, but now he 328 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 4: had learned that the opposite was true. Had any of 329 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 4: them taken the stand, they would have been able to 330 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 4: impeach doctor Gilmour Hill. 331 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 2: It's really hard to believe that you wouldn't have gotten 332 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 2: an acquittal if the jury her from a very well credentialed, 333 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 2: renowned expert who would study shaking baby syndrome like doctor 334 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 2: Bandyck had. 335 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: So as a result of not asking the court to 336 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 1: obtain funds to help Terry Ken, Lord ended up cross 337 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: examining doctor Gilmer Hill himself based on his notes from 338 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 1: consulting with doctor Bandak. But I think we all know 339 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 1: that cross examination of an expert witness doesn't pack the 340 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 1: same punch with the jury as having your own. 341 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 2: Expert, because who's the jury going to believe the doctor 342 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 2: who insists that there's really no other explanation for these 343 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 2: injuries or the lawyer who's not a scientist, not a 344 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 2: doctor who tries to poke holes in that theory, and 345 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 2: so unless the expert is exceptionally bad, cross examination will 346 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:46,879 Speaker 2: very rarely poke enough holes in an expert's certainty to 347 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 2: cause the jury to have reasonable doubt. 348 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: So the state had this in the bag, but presented 349 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 1: the child's mother, Cheryl, as well, with the assumption that 350 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: raising the specter of her lie in the emergency room 351 00:17:58,600 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: would seal the deal. 352 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 2: Cheryl did testify for the prosecution, but her testimony was 353 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 2: actually very helpful Terry, explaining that she trusted Terry, she 354 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,199 Speaker 2: explained the way to lie about whether she was there 355 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:13,360 Speaker 2: or not, confirmed that it was her lie, not Terry's. 356 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 1: And she also testified that Brendan had had a fall 357 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: at daycare a few days before. As you told us earlier, Terry, 358 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: we now know that a child could experience a lucid 359 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: interval for a few days before coming to the results 360 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: of an initial trauma. So for years medical expert was 361 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: has testified that the most recent caregiver must be the culprit, 362 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: when that was not true either. And Terry, I understand 363 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 1: you took the stand as well. 364 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 3: I told him, but I didn't hurt Brendan. You know, 365 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 3: I've never even corrected him, and he wasn't a bad 366 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 3: kid that needed corrections. Honestly, he was a good kid. 367 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: And there were no character witnesses allowed to understand, which 368 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 1: would have gone a long way towards backing you up 369 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: on all of that. 370 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 3: I had over half the courtroom full, my mother, father, 371 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 3: aunt's uncles, my son, my son's mother, employers, friends of family. 372 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 3: I had a ton of people there, and Judge Dare 373 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 3: didn't allow anybody to speak on my behalf. So it's like, 374 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 3: how can I even feel that I had a fair trial. 375 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 2: This case, even without anybody for the defense, was an 376 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,439 Speaker 2: extremely difficult case for the jury to result. It took 377 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 2: them days and they were deadlocked. 378 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 1: Right and this, by the way, is right before Christmas, 379 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 1: when these people could have really, probably very badly wanted 380 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 1: to be spending their time with their families getting ready 381 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: for the holidays. So who knows how that played into 382 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 1: how they eventually came around to side with doctor Gilmer. 383 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 3: Hill, and so they come up with their unanimous guilty. 384 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 3: I'm devastated. So now I get to spend Christmas and 385 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 3: New Year's with my family and my son, and then 386 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:51,679 Speaker 3: I know that after New year's I'm going to prison 387 00:19:51,920 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 3: for a crime that never even happened. The hardest part 388 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 3: was taking my son to school the day of sentencing, 389 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,680 Speaker 3: dropping him off and telling him, hopefully I'll be here, 390 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 3: you know, after you get out of school. If not, 391 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 3: then your mom will be here, And then go in 392 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 3: there and finding out that my sentence is two to 393 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 3: fifteen years. And then to have a son who's on 394 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,719 Speaker 3: the outside that you know, you can only get fifteen 395 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,640 Speaker 3: minute phone calls, you know, and to hear the problems 396 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 3: that he's having, knowing that he wouldn't be having these 397 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 3: problems if I was there where I should be, you know. 398 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:47,199 Speaker 3: But I was focused on getting me home and proving 399 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,400 Speaker 3: my innocence. I wanted to get back to my son. 400 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: Tragically, you were stolen from him, let's call it what 401 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: it is, during his prime formative years. Now. By two 402 00:20:57,560 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 1: thousand and seven, you had been studying the law and 403 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: working on your appeal process. You petitioned the Michigan Court 404 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 1: of Appeals with an ineffective Assistance of Council claim based 405 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: on ken Lord's misunderstanding that the court would not provide 406 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 1: an expert because you had retained ken Lord, so almost 407 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: like they thought if you had the money for that, 408 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: you should have the money for this, and that eventually 409 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: became the basis of the filings that they've prepared with 410 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 1: the Michigan Innocence Clinic. But at that time it failed. Dave, 411 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: do you have any theories as to why that petition 412 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: didn't work out? 413 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 2: So in order to prove ineffective assistance, you have to 414 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,680 Speaker 2: prove that had the lawyer not made the mistake, there's 415 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:31,879 Speaker 2: a reasonable probability there would have been a different outcome. 416 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 2: And normally what you would do is you would attach 417 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 2: affidavits from experts you would call at this hearing and 418 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 2: say send it back and have this evidentiary hearing in 419 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 2: the trial court and will show that had defensive lawyer 420 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 2: asked for an expert, he could have got a good 421 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 2: expert that would have changed his case, and a pel 422 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 2: lawyer just didn't do that. 423 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: So not only had your trial attorney failed you, but 424 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,120 Speaker 1: then appellet Council had as well. Terry, I understand at 425 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: this point you took an even more active role in 426 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: developing your own appeals. 427 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 3: I was at the law library every day to learn 428 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 3: how I could prove my innocence. A real good friend 429 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 3: that I met while I was incarcerated. Demetrius Welsh showed 430 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,400 Speaker 3: me more stuff as far as the legal process and 431 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 3: how to prepare legal briefs. 432 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 1: Meanwhile, you were seeking parole as well, but the board 433 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 1: wanted what you couldn't give them. 434 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 3: They wanted admission of guilt, you know. And that's the 435 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 3: thing is, I'm not given an admission of guilt for 436 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 3: something that I didn't do. I told them that I've 437 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 3: done everything that they wanted to do. I never caught 438 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 3: a ticket while I was incarcerated. 439 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 1: Nonetheless, you were denied your first time around. 440 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,679 Speaker 3: They gave me an eighteenth month continuance because I didn't 441 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 3: take an AOP class, which is an assault of Offenders program. 442 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 3: It was a stipulation for me to be parolled. So 443 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:48,640 Speaker 3: you have to pass this interview to even get into 444 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 3: the program. You know, I'm telling them everything that happened, 445 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:52,919 Speaker 3: and I'm telling him the whole story, and it's like, 446 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 3: you know, he's as well. It sounds to me like 447 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,199 Speaker 3: you're in denial and you don't want to admit. You know, 448 00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 3: how am I supposed to admit something that I didn't do? 449 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,199 Speaker 3: So I had to file at grievance in order for 450 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 3: me to even get into this AOP class. I knew 451 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,400 Speaker 3: that if I didn't do this class, I'm not going home. 452 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 3: They're just going to keep flopping me and flopping me 453 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 3: and flop me till I do my fifteen years. 454 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: So you did that program, but no matter what, the 455 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 1: goal was obviously exoneration because you were innocent. In fact, 456 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: you were innocent of a crime that never even happened. 457 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 1: So you had filed the Federal habeas in two thousand 458 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 1: and eight pro se while reaching out to innocence organizations 459 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: all over the country. But at that time you weren't 460 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,640 Speaker 1: getting any help, as so many projects and clinics were 461 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 1: really focused on wins that they could almost call predictable 462 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: that could be earned with d NA cases, and Dave 463 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: as an appellate public defender, you had seen the need 464 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: for a different kind of innocence organization. So you connected 465 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:44,679 Speaker 1: with someone who had served as a public defender and 466 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:46,679 Speaker 1: eventually went on to be the Chief Justice of the 467 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 1: Michigan Supreme Court. But at this point she was the 468 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,160 Speaker 1: dean for clinics at Michigan Law. And of course I'm 469 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: talking about Bridget McCormick. 470 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 2: And we decided with her public defender background as a 471 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 2: trial lawyer and my public defender background as an appellate lawyer, 472 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 2: we'd make a pretty good team. And so we co 473 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 2: founded the Michigan Innocence Clinic as a non DNA innocence project, 474 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,679 Speaker 2: which officially opened into its doors in January two thousand 475 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,360 Speaker 2: and nine, just about the time Terry was finishing up 476 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,639 Speaker 2: his sentence. He was still incarcerated at that point, and 477 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 2: so Terry was one of the first wave of people 478 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 2: to write us, and his was one of the very 479 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 2: first set of cases that we took. 480 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 3: It was like, you know, here's your sign. This is 481 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 3: what you've been waiting for, all this work and everything 482 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 3: that you've done. I finally have somebody that I can 483 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 3: give this to, that can you know, finish this relay 484 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 3: for me because I can't run this race no more. 485 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 3: There's no more that I can do. 486 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: And by then you finally had a barol day coming 487 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: up October sixth, two thousand and nine, so you were 488 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: headed out the door. What was that day like for you? Terry? 489 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 3: It went from how to trying to learn how to 490 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 3: live again, to be able to go to the bathroom 491 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 3: when I needed to go to the bathroom was a 492 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,879 Speaker 3: wonderful thing. This is the simple things. Two ply toilet paper. 493 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 3: Some hies catch up everything that we take for granted 494 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 3: every day. Was the stuff that I think that I 495 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,199 Speaker 3: missed the most, you know, a late gas bill, you 496 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 3: know what I mean, the stuff that I sweated before. 497 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 3: I'm like, I look at now and I'm like, you know, 498 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 3: I mean this shit. Really this stressed me out before, 499 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 3: and I like laugh at that. 500 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 1: And to finally get to be with your son again 501 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: after five long years. 502 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 3: It was. It was awesome. In prison, you get like 503 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:21,639 Speaker 3: a hug when you see him, in a hug when 504 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 3: they leave. So to be able to see him and 505 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 3: honestly be able to talk to him without discomfort was awesome. 506 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 1: But let's not forget you were still on parole, which, 507 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 1: as we here described over and over again, even though 508 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: you're technically free, it's almost like just being in a 509 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: bigger prison. 510 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 3: By parole, I legally couldn't see Cody because I was 511 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 3: not allowed to have contact with anybody under the age 512 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 3: of eighteen, So I had to get special permission from 513 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 3: my parole agent for me to even be able to 514 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 3: see my son. And then the worst part about it 515 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 3: was is my first year of parole, my granddaughter was 516 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 3: born and I could not be around her or see 517 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,160 Speaker 3: her for the first year of her life. I've had 518 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:06,160 Speaker 3: all these things taken away from me for nothing. 519 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 1: And so clearing your name could not happen soon enough, Dave, 520 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 1: As I understand it, you all went into court as 521 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:16,400 Speaker 1: his trial and appellate counsel should have done guns blazing 522 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 1: with four expert witnesses, including doctor John Plunkett, the forensic 523 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: pathologist who we mentioned earlier from his pioneering challenges to SBS. 524 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 2: We knew that there was a big problem with these 525 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 2: shaking baby cases. We read the transcript of doctor Gilmer 526 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:36,160 Speaker 2: Hill's testimony and it was way out there in our view. 527 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,680 Speaker 1: So these four experts said that doctor Gilmer Hill gave 528 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: the jury incorrect information regarding the biomechanics of infant head injury, 529 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,160 Speaker 1: short distance falls, and also abusive shaking. Each of them 530 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 1: noted that criticisms of shaking baby syndrome existed at the 531 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 1: time of the trial or earlier, and that they would 532 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 1: have offered these same opinions if they had been asked 533 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: to testify back in two thousand and five. They also 534 00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: said that injury biomechanics confirmed that when a child is 535 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 1: manual shaken, he or she will suffer a neck injury 536 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: or gripping style chest injuries well before sustaining a subdural 537 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:11,159 Speaker 1: hematoma or retinal hemorrhage, which is the understanding that undermines 538 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: nearly just about every single SBS prosecution, maybe all of them. 539 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,919 Speaker 1: They concluded that Brendan's injuries were consistent with a short 540 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 1: fall from the couch onto the coffee table or the floor, 541 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 1: and totally inconsistent with abuse of shaking. But proving innocence 542 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: is not enough, So the ineffective assistant claims were your 543 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 1: main arguments. But Terry had already raised the claims against 544 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:33,400 Speaker 1: his trial attorney. 545 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 2: There was obvious error here, both by the trial lawyer 546 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 2: and the appellate lawyer. So we filed a post conviction 547 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 2: motion in Michigan for appellate lawyer's failure to properly litigate 548 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 2: the trial lawyers in effectiveness. And so it goes back 549 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 2: to the same judge in front of whom Terry had 550 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 2: been convicted. 551 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: That would be Judge A Dare again. 552 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 2: And that judge just does not get it at all. 553 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,439 Speaker 2: That judge says, you can't raise this because this is 554 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 2: the same issue that Terry raised on appeal, ineffective assistance 555 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 2: of council, and we said no, Terry raised ineffective assistance 556 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,360 Speaker 2: a trial council on appeal. We're now raising ineffective assistance 557 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 2: of appellate lawyer for failing to file the motion to 558 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:16,880 Speaker 2: have an evidentiary hearing. 559 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,360 Speaker 1: Right in which the appellate attorney could have presented experts 560 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: to support the challenges to SBS and Judge of Dare's 561 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 1: confusion over the fact that both trial and appellate council 562 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 1: had failed you, but only the claim against trial council 563 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,400 Speaker 1: had been raised that kept justice from being done here 564 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: for over a decade. And so you appealed Dare's decision, 565 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 1: which involved a number of procedural hurdles that took the 566 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: better part of the next six years through both the 567 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: state and federal systems until you finally reached the Sixth Circuit. 568 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 2: And we go to the Sixth Circuit and we had 569 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 2: a terrific student attorney, one of the law students working 570 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 2: on the case, and she wiped the floor with the 571 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 2: Assistant Attorney General who was arguing against the petition. 572 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: And that terrific student attorney, by the way, was named 573 00:28:59,040 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: Meredith Collier. 574 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 2: It was a legal mismatch. It likes he seldom a see. 575 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 2: And so the end result of that, all of that 576 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 2: was we finally emerge in twenty seventeen with a ruling 577 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 2: from the federal court that Terry received ineffective assistance of 578 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 2: a Pellet council. 579 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: So you get to file a new appeal, basically starting 580 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: back in the trial court, so Judge of Dari's court, 581 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: but he had retired at this point, and you got 582 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 1: to present Terry's original ineffective assistance claim about ken Lord 583 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: not asking the court to provide funds to the defense 584 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 1: for an expert witness. 585 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 2: And we end up in front of a successor judge 586 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 2: in Saint Clair County port Hereon, who now says, well, 587 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 2: you know, I'm just not so sure that Terry was 588 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 2: really poor, and so we ended up having to hold 589 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 2: a whole evidentiary hearing to establish that Terry was too 590 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 2: poor to afford an expert. And what the judge ends 591 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 2: up finding is, all right, well, Terry is poor, but 592 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 2: we lose because the judge says it was a reasonable 593 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 2: decision for Ken lord not to ask for money because 594 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 2: Judge A Dare might have denied it. Wait what yeah, 595 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 2: the successor judges. But it was that when I was 596 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 2: a lawyer, if I'd asked for that, Judge A Dare 597 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 2: probably would have laughed me out of court. But that 598 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 2: ruling would be wrong. 599 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: Adair's alleged tendency to rule against providing the funds for 600 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 1: an expert would have been unconstitutional anyway. I mean, this 601 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: is obstinence that defies all reason. And we've covered Saint 602 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: Clair County only one time before running into this same 603 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: kind of maddening logic defying issues. And of course I'm 604 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: talking about temwijen Kenzu and we're going to have that 605 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 1: incredible episode linked in the bio. So in order to 606 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 1: receive justice, you had to get out of Saint Clair County. 607 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 2: I argue the case in the Michigan Streme Court, and finally, 608 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 2: in March of twenty twenty one, the Michigan Supreme Court 609 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 2: issues a short order concluding that Terry gets a new trial. 610 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 2: And there was this case is so clear that it's 611 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 2: not even worth writing an opinion, and so the Michigan 612 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 2: Streme Court rules in our favor Terry's conviction is vacated, 613 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 2: and then the prosecution in Saint Clair County then sat 614 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 2: around for months and months after March twenty twenty one, 615 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 2: and finally dismiss the charges in September twenty twenty one. 616 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 2: So that's the point where Terry officially becomes exonerated. 617 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 3: I'm just I felt that I was blessed to discover 618 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 3: the University of Michigan Law School and this is clinic. 619 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 3: Without them, I don't know where I would be right now. 620 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: So, after all you'd been through Terry, you'd think exoneration 621 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 1: would be the end of the road. Your life is 622 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: seemingly back to normal, But as we've learned, there's almost 623 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: always a chance for another shoe to drop. 624 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 3: I have no felony on my record. I can have 625 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 3: a passport, I can go anywhere I want, I can 626 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 3: have firearms. But here in Michigan, there's a thing called 627 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 3: the Michigan Central Registry, and it doesn't matter if there 628 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 3: was a crime or not. If somebody feels that you 629 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 3: did something, then they'll put you on this registry. 630 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 1: That's the registry maintained by Children's Protective Services. Are people 631 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 1: who have either been convicted suspected or whose names were 632 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: even breathed in the general direction of child abuse, neglect, 633 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 1: sexual exploitation go on. And so when the folks at 634 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: Michigan Law tried to get your name removed rightfully, so 635 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 1: there was some unexpected confusion. 636 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 3: So when they contact the Central Registry, they say, well, 637 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 3: which one are you trying to get removed, because there's 638 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 3: more than one. So Um reaches out to me and 639 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 3: they're like, you know, do you have any idea of 640 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 3: something happening back in ninety five? And I'm like no, 641 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 3: They're saying something about your child, and I goes, I 642 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 3: don't have a child. That says my only child is Cody. 643 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 3: That's the only child I've ever had, and I had 644 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 3: custody of my child. So I'm kind of confused here. 645 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: And this is the situation that we briefly discussed earlier 646 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: with the woman back in nineteen ninety five who claimed 647 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 1: you were the father when her child was rushed to 648 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 1: the hospital. So even with your exoneration, you of m 649 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 1: was still having difficulty removing you from this list and 650 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 1: undoing the damage. 651 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 3: I'm still battling this. They told my son he can't 652 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 3: leave my twelve year old grandson with me unless there's 653 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 3: another adult here or he can get in trouble for that. 654 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 3: I just want my life back, you know. I just 655 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 3: want to enjoy my time with my grandkids, right. 656 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: And that's the real crime here that a guy who 657 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 1: literally did nothing wrong was a loving dad still after 658 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: all these years, is not allowed to babysit his own grandchildren. 659 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: But I know there are great people at U of 660 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 1: M who are working on getting you off that list, 661 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 1: and in fact, we're going to have a link in 662 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 1: the bio for anyone who wants to support their incredibly 663 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 1: important work. So now it's time for closing arguments, where 664 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 1: I thank you both for sharing this story, and now 665 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 1: I'm just going to turn my microphone off, kick back 666 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: in my chair and listen to whatever else you two 667 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 1: amazing humans want to say. So, Dave, why don't you 668 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 1: kick it off and then hand it over to Terry. 669 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 2: I'm really glad we achieved justice for Terry. I'm really 670 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 2: sorry how long it took that he had to be 671 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 2: patient for more than twelve years of us fighting this 672 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 2: thing up and down the courts. It's a great example 673 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 2: of how resistant the courts are to doing justice these 674 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 2: cases I people are still in prison based on bogus 675 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 2: shaking baby syndrome testimony, and it's our goal to find 676 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 2: as many of them as we can and win them, because, 677 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 2: as Terry's case shows, these diagnoses that are made without 678 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 2: sound science and made with far, far too much certainty 679 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,240 Speaker 2: wreck people's lives. Terry, you know, Terry's experience was awful, 680 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,720 Speaker 2: but there are people who are serving life sentences because 681 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 2: the baby died, and we need to root out as 682 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 2: many of these cases as we can. We need to 683 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 2: really stop this kind of testimony from being given in 684 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 2: the first place. 685 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 3: My closing ar events would be love your family, Love 686 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:43,839 Speaker 3: your loved ones. If there's people that you are not 687 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 3: talking to because of different circumstances, I think you need 688 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 3: to try to right those wrongs. And I think it's 689 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,279 Speaker 3: time for people to start mending bridges. It feels like 690 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 3: this whole COVID thing is, you know, it's been like 691 00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,799 Speaker 3: a bomb that blew us all apart and at least 692 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,240 Speaker 3: are just floating all around and everybody's everybody's all about 693 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,879 Speaker 3: themselves anymore. I remember when I was a kid growing up, 694 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 3: when there was times like this. This is when families 695 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:11,840 Speaker 3: pulled together you know, when they were there for one another. 696 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:13,800 Speaker 3: I think that we just need to love our kids 697 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 3: and teach our kids, you know, so they don't do 698 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 3: our wrongs and make mistakes that you know that we've 699 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 3: occurred in our life. 700 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I want to 701 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor hall Any, Chelsea Lea Robinson, 702 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 1: Jeff Clyburn and Kevin Warns. The music in this production 703 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. 704 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,800 Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, 705 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at 706 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On 707 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both 708 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason Ravel. Conviction is a 709 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 1: production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal 710 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:06,760 Speaker 1: Company Number one