1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,640 Speaker 1: today's best minds. We are on vacation, but that doesn't 4 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: mean we don't have a great show for you Today. 5 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: Bloomberg's Matthew O'Neill and Perry Pelts stop by to talk 6 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: about their new documentary Can't Look Away, about Tech's stranglehold 7 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: on Children. But first we have substax own Jacob Silverman 8 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:33,560 Speaker 1: on Trump's weird plan to make cities deregulated dystopias. Welcome 9 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: to Fast Politics, Jacob. 10 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 2: Thank you. 11 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: I'm so excited to have you here, and also I 12 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: have so many things I want to talk to you about. 13 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: The last time you were on I don't know if 14 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: you remember, but we at the end of the interview, 15 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 1: I was like, so, basically bitcoin is just kind of 16 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 1: a scam, and you were like, yeah, since that interview, 17 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: it's probably about six months. I want you to talk 18 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: about what is happening right now with the American economy 19 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: and bitcoin and bitcoin's other you know, fake money, synthetic currencies. 20 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:10,399 Speaker 2: Sure. 21 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 3: Well, for those who don't know, the crypto industry was 22 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 3: the biggest donor by industry in the twenty twenty four election. 23 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 3: This is not a very big or economically productive industry, 24 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 3: but they have a lot of money to punch away 25 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 3: above their weight. And the results of that has been, 26 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 3: of course, that they helped elect Trump and a lot 27 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 3: of pro crypto Republicans, and now they're starting to get 28 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 3: their way with policy and personnel and across the board. 29 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 3: I mean, it's all happened very quickly. We've seen a 30 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 3: lot of actions by Trump for basically remove a lot 31 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 3: of the guardrails around the financial system and to dismantle 32 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:52,279 Speaker 3: all these different task forces and groups within various government 33 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 3: agencies that were focusing on either cryptoregulation or prime related 34 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 3: to cryptocurrency. And simultaneous to this, Trump up here as 35 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 3: basically the country's most prominent crypto entrepreneur and who's done 36 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 3: things that would be considered illegal under any normal regime 37 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 3: or presidency, and is also not only is he the 38 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 3: most prominent crypto entrepreneur, but he's really jumped in the 39 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 3: deep end with the industry's shadiest characters, a lot of 40 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,919 Speaker 3: whom have had pardons or headed towards a pardon, or 41 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 3: have had sec investigations against them dropped. And so now 42 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 3: where we're headed is that with the Genius Act and 43 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 3: some of the other regulation coming down the pike, the 44 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 3: whole economy will kind of have to play by crypto's rules, 45 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 3: or a kind of lack of rules. And what the 46 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 3: crypto industry wants from people who are in the bitcoin 47 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 3: on down is access to more mainstream financing, to Wall Street, 48 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 3: to institutional money, and to be able to kind of 49 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 3: create all these complex and definitely synthetic and artificial financial 50 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 3: products on top of crypto, which itself arguably has no 51 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 3: inherent value. With that comes a lot instability, a lot 52 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,959 Speaker 3: of risk, a lot of volatility, and I think if 53 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 3: we have sort of a crypto driven economic crash, it's 54 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 3: because the whole kind of economy will be forced to 55 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 3: play by crypto's very dangerous set of rules. 56 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: I laugh to keep from crying, but I also laugh 57 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: because crypto doesn't want to be regulated, just like AI. 58 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 1: There are so many parallels in my mind between crypto 59 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: regulation and AI regulation, right, They're both These are both 60 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:33,919 Speaker 1: sort of these lobbies that have sprung up like tobacco 61 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: and oil, both of which are desperate not to be 62 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: regulated and are trying to circumvent any regulation, like by 63 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: adding in that ridiculous that states cannot regulate AI for 64 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: ten years, like that ridiculous little thing they put in 65 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: the Republican BBB. But what I think is so hilarious 66 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: about all of this is that in fact it's Congress, 67 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: so they're not going to fucking regulate any They never 68 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: regulated Facebook. You're really worried they're going to regulate you. 69 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: All they do is not regulate discuss. 70 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. 71 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 3: I think this has been actually sort of an issue 72 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 3: across tech for years now, is that they kind of 73 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 3: don't realize how good that they have it, and that 74 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 3: I mean, of course there's going to be lobbying and 75 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 3: influenced peddling and stuff like that, but this is an 76 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 3: industry that even under Biden did quite well, and the failures, 77 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 3: so to speak of some things to take off like crypto, 78 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 3: are kind of their own. And so that's actually one 79 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:33,160 Speaker 3: thing that I found puzzling or try to explain about, 80 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 3: like the radicalization of a lot of tech leaders, you know, 81 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 3: or like whenever markets, yeah, whenever Mark and Reason throws 82 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 3: a fit, it's like, well you had it, so you 83 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 3: are as rich as ever. You own six mansions your 84 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 3: companies are flourishing. Maybe you haven't, you know, created God 85 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 3: in a computer with artificial intelligence or whatever else, but 86 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 3: you pretty much have all you want. But they they 87 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 3: take any sort of criticism and now anything that kind 88 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 3: of impedes them in any way, very personally, and I 89 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 3: mean they're pretty soft in that way. 90 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: I think tech bros Are fucking babies. I mean, I 91 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 1: think that's the net net, right. They were so many. 92 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: It's funny because I know one tech bro. They had 93 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: ten million dollars at Silicon Valley Bank when it went under, 94 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 1: and he was like started text me. He's like, you 95 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: have to talk to Biden about bailing out Silicon Valley Bank. 96 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 1: And I was like, first of all, it doesn't work 97 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: that way with Democrats. It's not like if you write 98 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 1: about politics that somehow you have a main line to 99 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: the president and he does favors for you. Like, that's 100 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:33,280 Speaker 1: not how any of this supposed work. And also I 101 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: was like, bail out your fucking bank, so you want 102 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: to socialize the losses and privatize the games. Like I 103 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,559 Speaker 1: feel like there's such a disconnect here with tech bros. 104 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's really important. They're fucking babies, right, 105 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 1: these people Mark Andresen, he was offended. They were so 106 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: offended by Lena Khan, by the mere existence of Lena 107 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: Kon Linikon wasn't even able to do a lot of 108 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 1: what she wanted to do, but the idea that there 109 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 1: would be any kind of check on capitalism in any 110 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,599 Speaker 1: way was so offensive, And I wonder if you could 111 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: sort of talk through We know about Andreasen and his 112 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 1: funny shaped head and his love of fascism or of authoritarianism. 113 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: We know about Elon because he tweeted before he got 114 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 1: kicked out of the White House. We know that these 115 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 1: people are just pretty excited. But the thing that I've 116 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: been struck by is like Curtis jarviin the one sort 117 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: of the intellectual ringleader of this crew, right, I think 118 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 1: that article in The New Yorker really exposed him to 119 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 1: be just a complete broad So I wonder if you 120 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 1: could sort of talk to me about where this crew 121 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 1: is now, knowing that they're basically sort of glorized Fox News. 122 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 3: Well, it's interesting because a few years ago, the new 123 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:58,720 Speaker 3: right or the neo reactionaryas that Curtis Jarvin represents, they 124 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:02,039 Speaker 3: try to present them cells as somehow countercultural or like 125 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 3: the new counterculture was these right wingers who you know, 126 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 3: believe in eugenics and all these other bad things. 127 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 1: Wow. 128 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 3: But now you know, the people they talk to or 129 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 3: some of their friends are in power, and I think 130 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 3: that changes things a little bit. And I think they've 131 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 3: also made a lot of accommodations to sort of the 132 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 3: cults of Trump or just you know, we've seen this 133 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 3: even in the last couple of weeks, but people kind of 134 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 3: bending over backwards to justify Trump's supposedly anti war, people 135 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 3: on the right justifying Trump's attack on Iran. And you know, 136 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 3: and Yarvin has also done this thing where sometimes he 137 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 3: claims he doesn't have much influence, which I mean, I 138 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 3: think it is debatable in some ways. He kind of 139 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 3: he gets he certainly gets ritt about a lot. But 140 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 3: they can only be sort of victims or people on 141 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 3: the outside for so long because now their peers are 142 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 3: in power and doing some of the things that they 143 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 3: want to be done, like following out the Ministry of 144 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 3: State and concentrating more power in the present. I think 145 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 3: sometimes when you hear this stuff from someone like Jarvin, 146 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 3: who speaks in these kind of goofy comic book villain terms. 147 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 3: Almost it's hard to take seriously, but then you look 148 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 3: at what's actually happening in the presidency or in the 149 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 3: White House, and it's hard not to see a connection there. 150 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: Absolutely true, and there clearly is a connection there. So 151 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: Jesse really wants to talk about freedom cities. Oh, sure, 152 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: you need to explain to our listeners. Though not everyone 153 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: is as read in on freedom cities as Jesse is. 154 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: I made him explain it to me yesterday. So explain 155 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: what freedom cities are like, where they come from to 156 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 1: I want where they come from. 157 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 3: And this is probably a good example of kind of 158 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 3: right wing Silicon Valley ideology finding common cause with just 159 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 3: sort of maga trump Ism and finding something in common. 160 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 3: Trump has talked about freedom cities like creating kind of 161 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:51,719 Speaker 3: cities out of whole cloth in parts of the United 162 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 3: States or maybe Greenland one day, that are kind of 163 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 3: supposed to be low regulation or none inherently somehow innovative. 164 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 3: You're going to have hordes of tech companies going there 165 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 3: to try things or do experiments that they're not allowed 166 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 3: to do in normal law abiding communities. I mean, Trump 167 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 3: sort of talks about it or has did talk about 168 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 3: during his campaigns kind of returned to the frontier, and 169 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 3: the tech industry has been trying to do this in 170 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 3: the form of what they generally call charter cities for 171 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 3: many years. Peter Teele famously funded seasteading and which is 172 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:30,559 Speaker 3: sort of these people who are going to live on 173 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:33,479 Speaker 3: ships or on these floating communities. 174 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 1: They ever happened. 175 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 3: Well, there's one example of a charter city really that 176 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 3: I think deserves attention, and that's one in Honduras on 177 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 3: the island of Roatan called Prospera, and it's been pretty 178 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 3: well covered in the Times and other places. And basically 179 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 3: what they did was they took this is a venture 180 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 3: capitalist funded charter city that they basically made a deal 181 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 3: with at the time, the right wing Honduran government to 182 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 3: take over some land where they the basic criminal code 183 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 3: would still cover them, but they could kind of do 184 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 3: anything they wanted, and they started building a little bit 185 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 3: and giving out citizenship to tech entrepreneurs want to come 186 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 3: there to Again, it's a lot of people just awarding 187 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 3: taxes or trying or claiming that they want to do 188 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 3: medical experiments, biotech stuff that can't be done in the US. 189 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,559 Speaker 3: There's not much real activity there, and then there is 190 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 3: a yeah, there are at least I mean, I've gotten 191 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 3: varying numbers from a few dozen to a few hundred. 192 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 3: They do have a sizeable chunk of land, and like 193 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,359 Speaker 3: real estate. They took over an old resort and there's 194 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 3: been a lot of protests from locals, and so the 195 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 3: National government of Honduras basically turned over, became more liberal 196 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 3: left and said, we don't like this deal that was 197 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 3: made with you guys to own this land. It's a 198 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 3: long term lease, like ninety nine years or something like that. 199 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 3: And they've now been fighting with them, and the people 200 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 3: from Prospera are suing the Honduran government for an enormous 201 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 3: number that's greater than the GDP of Houndurs. It's something 202 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 3: like fifty billion dollars. 203 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 4: So it's going, well, is what you're. 204 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 3: Right, and that's the successful one. And I've seen all 205 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 3: kinds of presentations and lectures from people who basically want 206 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:12,439 Speaker 3: to escape the strictures of the law. I mean, the 207 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 3: popular term on the libertarian right is exit, but Peter 208 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 3: Thiel has used this many times over the years, and 209 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 3: the exiting society, exiting the strictures of the law. So 210 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 3: when Trump start, you know, I don't playing the Trump 211 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 3: understands with his time of when you start talking out 212 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 3: something called freedom cities or building new communities from scratch, 213 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 3: that is sort of a whistle for our dog whistle 214 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,559 Speaker 3: for tech people who when they hear that, they think, okay, 215 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 3: no laws, no regulation, we could get land. 216 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 2: Cheap and do what we want. 217 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 3: And frankly, also some of the people behind this charter 218 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,679 Speaker 3: city stuff in right wing tech circles are really excited 219 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 3: about taking over Greenland because that's they want to start 220 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 3: a charter city there. I mean, all this stuff strikes 221 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:58,439 Speaker 3: me as very untenable. I think it's so they can 222 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 3: have an authoritarian dictatorship basically, or you know, be totally 223 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:04,839 Speaker 3: in charge. Because it's like what you were talking on 224 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 3: a few minutes ago with Andreesa and others. They can't 225 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 3: really stand to be bound by others rules, right The 226 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 3: entitlement is overwhelming, and they do think that they are elites, 227 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 3: both genetic elites and cognitive elites who deserve to rule others. 228 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: What I have been so st You know, I'm married 229 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: to ed Tech VC and we've been married a long 230 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: long time and so for a long time I thought 231 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: that venture capitalists, because my father in law was a 232 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: venture capitalist, I always thought they were very smart because 233 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: they built all this businesses, they built, all this wealth, 234 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 1: they built you know, so much of America was not 235 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: you know, over the last fifty years, was built by 236 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: you know, investing in small companies and helping them grow 237 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: and creating these huge monopolies, which was not probably the point. 238 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: But anyway, but when I am struck by when you 239 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: got Elon on Twitter, what was so clear to me 240 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: was this guy's not so smart. I mean, maybe he's 241 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: good at building rockets, but his thinking is cooked. And 242 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: when you and and Curtis is the same way, when 243 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 1: you get Curtis going, he's just he's John pod Horz, right, 244 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,439 Speaker 1: He's not some genius. He's just a person who has 245 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: a lot of discriminatory ideas about how the world works. 246 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: So I just don't, you know, I just wonder where 247 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: they think they're why they think they're so brilliant. 248 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 4: It's just because they're rich, That's part of it. 249 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 3: It's also I think because a lot of these guys 250 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 3: don't do much reading, and I'm not that I expect 251 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 3: them to be tearing through books all the time, but 252 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 3: they kind of think that they've reasoned, they've come to 253 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 3: first principles on their own. And you know, it's like 254 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 3: there's a joke about how every couple of years some 255 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 3: VC reinvents the bus by saying, like, you know, there's 256 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 3: gonna be an uber van that stops at at regular locations. 257 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 3: Like there's very low respect sort of for what comes before, 258 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 3: whether it's businesses or institutions or ideas, and so they 259 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 3: just I think you see that a lot with Musk 260 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,839 Speaker 3: and others who kind of make up solutions as they 261 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 3: go along or propose things and you're like, well, there's 262 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 3: already something that does that, or you know, this institution 263 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 3: is supposed to do that, but they just don't seem 264 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 3: to get it. You know, that becomes a real problem 265 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 3: when the people acting like that, are speaking like that 266 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 3: are billionaires with a huge amount of power, not just 267 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 3: kind of idiots. 268 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: On X and who are running the government. And yeah, exactly, 269 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: Elon is clearly out right. He is no longer running 270 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: the federal government. We don't really have the great details, 271 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: but clearly he has just crossed Trump one too many times. 272 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 1: So it seems like I know a big balls has 273 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: left the government. I said that Wired piece yesterday. 274 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 4: I mean, what is that? 275 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: Who sort of are these people now leaving, what are 276 00:14:56,080 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 1: they leaving with? And how have they fucked upths in 277 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: federal government? 278 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, Unfortunately, some of that is is sort of TBD 279 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 3: or a long term thing that we're going to find 280 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 3: out as we go along. But you know, I think 281 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 3: Musk and Xai probably got a tremendous amount of data. 282 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 3: You know, these are things I think deserve more reporting 283 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 3: and investigation. But when the Dose people showed up at 284 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 3: the SEC one day earlier the spring, I got a 285 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 3: message from a former SEC employee who said, you know, 286 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 3: they're going to get their hands on so much sensitive 287 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 3: market data because you know, the government, or especially agencies 288 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 3: like the SEC, have has really important and kind of 289 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 3: privileged and unique data about how Americans live, about the economy, 290 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 3: about you know, and we're not even talking classified information, 291 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 3: but just kind of everything around us, how our society functions. 292 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 3: That could be enormously valuable, whether to train in an 293 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 3: AI system like Xai's Grock, or to try to trade 294 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 3: on or you know, do something more sinister with And 295 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 3: I think the answer is that we don't really know 296 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 3: exactly what they're leaving with, but they probably did leave 297 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 3: with a lot of data. And then I think there 298 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 3: was a pretty revealing comment kind of confirming a lot 299 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 3: of us thought from Joe Lonsdale on X a few 300 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 3: days ago, where he's part of kind of the raider 301 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 3: Musk Orbit. He's adventure capitalist Peter Teal disciple, and he 302 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 3: said a lot of our friends are still in DOGE 303 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 3: and in the government pretty much paraphrasing here, and this 304 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 3: is something he said publicly like so, and we can 305 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 3: chart this too. Some of these people, at least a 306 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 3: lot of the appointees who came from a sixteen Z 307 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 3: or from mus crew at DOGE are still there. And 308 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 3: you know, we have the prominent people like Moscow or 309 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 3: nineteen year old big Balls leaving. But the things that 310 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 3: they the processes they started, some of the things they 311 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 3: put in place, I think are gonna be very significant, 312 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 3: especially as AI systems start getting rolled out to more 313 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 3: parts of government and start replacing more people, and I 314 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 3: think it's going to be an ongoing disaster of one 315 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 3: form or another. 316 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: The thing I'm the most worried about is the AI stuff, 317 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 1: because I'm just not convinced that anyone has thought this throw. 318 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 5: Yeah. 319 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 3: I mean I've long argued, perhaps not a long yeah, 320 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 3: I've argued that one of the problems with AI is 321 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 3: not that it works, but that it kind of is 322 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 3: seen as something that works or works well enough so that, 323 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 3: you know, the fortune of five hundred CEOs and government 324 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 3: officials say let's put this in everything because it kind 325 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,159 Speaker 3: of works well enough, and it saves on human labor, 326 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 3: and it's also trendy and makes them kind of look 327 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:38,919 Speaker 3: up to speed. And I think a version of that 328 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 3: is kind of happening right now in the federal government. 329 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 3: I mean there have been you know, some very well 330 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 3: meaning Democrats have written letters to DOGE and other agencies 331 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 3: asking what are you doing with AI? But we don't 332 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,400 Speaker 3: really know. But we do know that these things don't 333 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 3: work as well as Sam Altman and others say they 334 00:17:55,800 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 3: do or must does, and they're tremendous problems have that 335 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 3: we haven't even figured out yet. 336 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 1: But that doesn't worry may as much as it working 337 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: really well. If it doesn't work like we know what 338 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 1: to do, which it doesn't work right, it might cause 339 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 1: a kind of Chernobyl moment, which scary and socks. But 340 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: like we can pull back from something that terrible. The 341 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: question is what happens if it works as well as 342 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: they say. 343 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 3: It does, right, well, then I think you see kind 344 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 3: of AI become one of the tools or handmaidens of 345 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 3: more overt fascism, you know, like yeah, I mean we 346 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 3: haven't mentioned pounds here, but you know the US government 347 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 3: with pounds here, who's been being given contracts left and right, 348 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:44,360 Speaker 3: is assembling kind of unified databases of personal information about 349 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 3: Americans that, for reasons legal and practical and to preserve 350 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 3: our freedoms, have been separate for even through kind of 351 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 3: the terrible Bush years. And so I think when you 352 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,640 Speaker 3: when you see that kind of authority developing and that empowerment, 353 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 3: I mean that can only lead to some very dark places. 354 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:07,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really that's good. I have wasn't worried enough, 355 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 1: So this is good. This was so interesting. I hope 356 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 1: you will come back. 357 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 3: Oh, I would love to thank you. 358 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: Matthew O'Neil and Perry Pelts are the directors of Can't 359 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 1: Look Away, which you can watch now on Jump. 360 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 6: Welcome to Fast Politics. 361 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 5: Matt Harry, thanks for having us. We're glad to be here. 362 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 6: So I want to start talking about how you guys 363 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 6: decided to do this film. Whoever wants to start with that, 364 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 6: but just explain to us how you got here. 365 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 5: Sure, we've long admired the investigations that happen out of 366 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 5: the Bloomberg newsroom and specifically out of Business Week, and 367 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:51,640 Speaker 5: we're talking with Bloomberg about the possibility of doing investigative 368 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 5: documentaries because that's what we love to do as both 369 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:59,120 Speaker 5: filmmakers and journalists. And read the reporting of Olivia Carvil, 370 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 5: who's a a Bloomberg investigative journalist who had been looking 371 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 5: at these cases in the social media landscape, and we thought, wow, 372 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 5: we know that social media is sort of vaguely bad 373 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,199 Speaker 5: or can be a time suck, or there's bullying, but 374 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 5: she was uncovering these cases that showed the real extremes 375 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 5: and depths of horror of what happens on TikTok and 376 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 5: Snapchat and Instagram for children, and she introduced us to 377 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 5: this incredible group of lawyers. 378 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 4: Harry tell us about the lawyers. So, Molly, the lawyers 379 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 4: are extraordinary. And if we just back up a second, 380 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 4: it feels like when we look at this issue, we 381 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 4: are living through what feels like the beginning of what 382 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 4: could be one of the great public health crises of 383 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 4: our time. And these platforms are built in a way 384 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 4: that prioritizes engagement, and most specifically engagement by kids, and 385 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 4: not safety. And that's not something that's incidental, it's actually 386 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:07,920 Speaker 4: what's part of the business plan. And that's where the 387 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 4: lawyers come in because for so long and it continues 388 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,239 Speaker 4: to this day, Section two thirty protects all of these 389 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:20,920 Speaker 4: platforms and makes them impervious to legal action. So what's 390 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 4: unique about these lawyers is they said, you know what, 391 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 4: if Section two thirty is going to be the armor 392 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 4: that protects these companies, we're going to figure out a 393 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,880 Speaker 4: way to still get at them. And that is where 394 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 4: the lawyers come in. And they took this on as 395 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 4: a matter of product liability and said, these platforms are 396 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 4: actually faulty products and they're causing harm to our kids. 397 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,679 Speaker 4: And that's really where the legal start of this story is. 398 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 6: It's funny because I really think of tech companies as 399 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 6: sort of the same as oil company is the same 400 00:21:55,760 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 6: as tobacco company is. These are real dangerous companies that 401 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 6: have sort of been able to spurt regulation. Is that 402 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 6: the sort of ETOs of the movie. 403 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 5: The parallel between big tech and big tobacco is really 404 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,679 Speaker 5: really clear. You know, when you see in the film 405 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 5: we all saw last year as the heads of meta, TikTok, etc. 406 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 5: Were all called in front of Congress, and many of 407 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,439 Speaker 5: the families featured in our film were sitting in that 408 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,880 Speaker 5: audience holding pictures of their children who had died due 409 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 5: to their engagement with social media. It was reminiscent of 410 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,920 Speaker 5: the nineteen nineties when the big tobacco executives were there. 411 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 5: The biggest parallel is they know, and they knew the 412 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 5: things that are happening to children on these social media 413 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 5: platforms were known to the social media platforms, and as 414 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 5: Whistleblower after Whistleblower comes out with more documentation, you see 415 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 5: that children were being targeted and the companies knew of 416 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 5: the social harms and the real harms that were happening 417 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,880 Speaker 5: to chill and chose time and again profit over the protection. 418 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,360 Speaker 5: And we want to be really specific here because we're 419 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 5: not talking protection for every single user. We're talking protection 420 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:11,160 Speaker 5: for children. 421 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 6: So talk to me about section two thirty and how 422 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 6: that figures into this. 423 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 4: Right now, Section two thirty let's just back up a 424 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 4: little bit was written in nineteen ninety six. It shields 425 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 4: tech companies from liability for what users post. And that 426 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 4: made sense back in nineteen ninety six because what existed 427 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 4: then were essentially bulletin boards, so the same thing as 428 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 4: phone companies. That would phone companies be liable, And this 429 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:38,919 Speaker 4: is the argument that you see in the film the 430 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 4: chat Lawyer make. Would AT and T be responsible if 431 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,680 Speaker 4: Matt called me and we made a drug deal over 432 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 4: the use of their phone. No, they wouldn't be, because 433 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 4: they are just what they would argue, sort of a pipeline. 434 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,880 Speaker 4: And what was typically said is that these platforms were 435 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 4: bulletin boards. They can't be responsible for what people were posting. 436 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 4: That has evolved a lot since nineteen ninety six, and 437 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,719 Speaker 4: right now these platforms and the algorithms they provide that 438 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,880 Speaker 4: has a real human touch. It's no longer a bulletin 439 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 4: board or a pipeline. So Section two thirty has really 440 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 4: failed to hold these companies accountable. And that's, you know, 441 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 4: again circling back to why the lawyers are looking at 442 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 4: this as a matter of product liability. 443 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 5: And it's important to understand that these big tech companies 444 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 5: are sort of using this federal statute from nineteen ninety six. 445 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 5: When I remember that was written when Mark Zuckerberg was 446 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 5: eleven years old. That's when for those of you listening, 447 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:45,120 Speaker 5: remember the sounds of the high pitched squeals and beeps 448 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 5: as you logged into your AOL account through a phone line. 449 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 5: It was a totally different world. And the sort of 450 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 5: depths and breath and ambition of the internet and what 451 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 5: might be possible, but also the threats that would come 452 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 5: from social media we're frankly unimaginable. 453 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 7: So with that evolution, I know a lot of people 454 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 7: seem to say, like, you know, this is both one 455 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 7: of the few issues that could be bipartisan, But I 456 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 7: know the UK, they just are starting to have the 457 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 7: biggest discussion after adolescence about what we should actually do 458 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 7: about regulating I think it's because people have been scared 459 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 7: about what could happen to kids. 460 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 2: What do we see here? Do we see any roadmap 461 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 2: for change or anything. 462 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 5: Well, there's a lot of things happening at the federal level. 463 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 5: There's a bill called the kid Is Online Safety Act 464 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 5: that actually passed last year in the Senate with ninety 465 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 5: three votes. So when you talk about bipartisan cooperation, it's 466 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 5: one of the rare areas where you can get ninety 467 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 5: three Senators to agree on anything. However, it got gummed 468 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 5: up by Speaker Johnson in the House who did not 469 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,120 Speaker 5: bring it to a vote last year, and Senators Bloomenthal 470 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 5: and Blackburn have re submitted that bill. But what is 471 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,360 Speaker 5: happening all around the country whereas the federal level it stalls, 472 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 5: is that states are innovative. You have New York just 473 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,880 Speaker 5: past a bell to bell phone ban for schools, which 474 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 5: bell to bell means from the first bell of the 475 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 5: day to the last bell of the day, you're not 476 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 5: allowed to have smartphones in schools. You have legislation in Vermont, 477 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 5: in Colorado, in Utah, all different types of state based 478 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 5: accountability programs for social media companies to protect children. And 479 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 5: I think in this it's really important to clarify because 480 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 5: I use Instagram. I'm actually still consume a great deal 481 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,679 Speaker 5: of news on X and social media can be a 482 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 5: perfectly good, useful, additive thing in our world, can connect 483 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 5: people across boundaries that were otherwise insurmountable. What we're talking 484 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 5: about here is the responsibility when it comes to the 485 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:49,879 Speaker 5: youngest and most vulnerable users. 486 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,399 Speaker 4: Just something that I want to add into that Mali, 487 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 4: because I think it really matters. Is a lot of 488 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 4: people who are anti legislation will be very quick to 489 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 4: say this is a parent's problem. This is something that 490 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 4: should be moderated and mediated in the family. Parents need help. 491 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 4: But right now it's like sending them into a war 492 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 4: zone and they have no armor. This is not a 493 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 4: fight that parents can take on. We don't ask parents 494 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 4: to inspect playground equipment, we don't ask parents to inspect 495 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 4: child safety seats. This it would be akin to doing 496 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 4: the same thing there. So when people start to wag 497 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 4: a finger and say, well, parents should be taking care 498 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 4: of this, just want to point out what we're talking 499 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,919 Speaker 4: about and just how difficult that would be. Any parent 500 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,479 Speaker 4: right now who has a child who's dealing with this 501 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 4: knows that if a child wants to use their devices, 502 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 4: they're going to figure out a way to do it, 503 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 4: whether or not you agree or like it. 504 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 505 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,880 Speaker 7: So my thing would be, so you're talking about state 506 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 7: level stuff, but this is one of those issues that 507 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 7: obviously we want to solve it across the entire country. 508 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 7: It seems like democratic senators are a way it's this 509 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,120 Speaker 7: is there a reason, like Schumer? Are they not interested 510 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 7: in it? 511 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 2: Like? What does this look like? What I'm imagining in 512 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 2: our audience right now is a lot. 513 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,159 Speaker 7: Of blood boiled parents that are not happy about this 514 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 7: right now, and like they want to know what to 515 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 7: do exactly. 516 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 5: Well, the what to do is a really good question. 517 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 5: And these things change in complicated ways. And if we 518 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 5: go back to that parallel with cigarettes, it took a 519 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,160 Speaker 5: long time for legislation to be an acted and it'll 520 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 5: took a long time for the litigation to go through 521 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 5: the courts. What did happen with cigarettes was. 522 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 2: A cultural shift. 523 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 5: I think at height, almost like forty five percent of 524 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 5: sixteen year olds we're using tobacco products in the nineteen 525 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 5: nineties and now it's down to something like six or 526 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 5: eight percent. And it happened precipitously. It was cool to 527 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 5: smoke when I was sixteen. Ten years later, it was 528 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 5: not cool to smoke. And you're seeing this change with kids. 529 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 5: So talking about it with your children, talking about it 530 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 5: with your trusted adult, and any younger person's life level 531 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 5: with them. Ask what they're seeing on social media, like 532 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 5: tell them that you understand and you're interested, because in 533 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 5: the end, kids are smart and they don't like being 534 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 5: taken advantage of. And when they learn about how the 535 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 5: social media platforms work and this idea if you're not 536 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 5: paying for the product, you are the product, they recoil 537 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,719 Speaker 5: and I think there's a cultural shift to foot it. 538 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 4: Also, I think is really worthwhile to tell parents that 539 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 4: you're not crazy, you're not alone. When you start to 540 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 4: see mood changes and secrecy and all of these things. 541 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 4: I think that we all do this, you know, you 542 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 4: sort of say, well, is this just normal team stuff 543 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 4: or is this on the extreme of normal? 544 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 5: Like what is this? 545 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 4: You don't know what to do? And I think that 546 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 4: one of the messages of the movie is that these 547 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 4: platforms are designed in many ways, as we said before, 548 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 4: to prioritize engagement to keep your kids online, and that 549 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 4: is part of the plant. Part of the plan is 550 00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 4: to actually get your child's brain really really focused on 551 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 4: this material so that they can't look away from their devices. 552 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 4: Thus the name of the film. 553 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, one of the more impactful things I've 554 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 7: seen recent times was that Social Studies documentary that showed 555 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 7: what the children were reacting to on their phone and 556 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 7: how their behavior changed. You mentioned though smoking, So the 557 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 7: Truth Campaign was largely credited for this. That then made 558 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 7: the lobbyists very scared. Can you talk to me about 559 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 7: what the lobbyist structure looks like? This just feels like 560 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,959 Speaker 7: there's this barrier against the Senate and Congress. What does 561 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 7: the lobbying structure look like? Who is the companies that 562 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 7: are influencing the most in this structure? 563 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 5: Speaking broadly, what you think about the size of the 564 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 5: tech companies versus the size of big Tobacco. Big Tobacco 565 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 5: just doesn't even look that big at its height compared 566 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 5: to big Tech, who have an army of lobbyists across 567 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 5: both parties. Like many big American industries, be it energy 568 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 5: or tobacco or technology, this is a bipartisan feeding frenzy 569 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 5: when it comes to both political donations and engaged lobbyists. 570 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 5: So the backlash or the counter push is being led 571 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 5: by community based organizations and activists and the parents you 572 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 5: see in this film who are transforming personal tragedy into action, 573 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 5: taking the most horrible things that can happen because their 574 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 5: children couldn't look away from social media and transferring it 575 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 5: into real push for change. And you have that with 576 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 5: the Mothers Against Media Addiction group, you have it with 577 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 5: Project Reset, you have it with the parents featured in 578 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 5: our film Can't Look Away. We're going there. 579 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 2: Can you give us color on what those two groups 580 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 2: are pushing to do. 581 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,479 Speaker 5: Broadly, groups like Mothers Against Media Addiction and Project Reset 582 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 5: and other people who are going to the hill but 583 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 5: also to state legislative groups to push change are advocating 584 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 5: for responsibility where the companies can be held liable, so 585 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 5: that's a reform of Section thirty. They are in many 586 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 5: cases pushing again and again so that the accountability lies 587 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 5: not with parents or with children, but with the companies themselves. 588 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 5: That's the critical difference. I think. Then that's where there's 589 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 5: a certain amount of education and understanding. Is sometimes when 590 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 5: you hear about these tragic cases, you think that, oh, 591 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 5: it could be a bad kid or bad parenting. But 592 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,479 Speaker 5: when you meet the parents in this film and you 593 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 5: meet the parents who are doing this work, you see 594 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 5: that these are good parents and good kids, and the 595 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 5: accountability lies with the product and the internet services, not 596 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:45,479 Speaker 5: with the users. 597 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 7: So of the social media services, I know people like 598 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 7: to pick and choose, like oh this is my good one. No, 599 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 7: this is my happy place, this is the bad one. 600 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 7: What do you guys see as the landscape you've really 601 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 7: been in this Do you have any feelings of like, Okay, 602 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 7: I'm not that scared of the one, this one's a 603 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,040 Speaker 7: little better, or is it really just we should be 604 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 7: scared all around. 605 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 4: It's a really good question, and I think rather than 606 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 4: just point fingers individually, in general, the rule of thumb 607 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:17,479 Speaker 4: is the platforms that are using reward systems for young people. 608 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 4: So in other words, if you go on Snap, there's 609 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 4: the quick ad right so, and there's snapstreaks, and there's 610 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 4: all sorts of things that are built in so that 611 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 4: kids are getting instant hits of dopamine. The more that 612 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 4: you see that design feature in a system, in a platform, 613 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 4: typically the more addicting, the more compelling it is because 614 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 4: you start to introduce, like I said, the dopamine sort 615 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 4: of feedback system, but also on top of it, a 616 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 4: competition with young people, and we know that competition is 617 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 4: something that really drives usage as well. You go onto 618 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 4: something like YouTube, there's nothing like that, there's no addictive 619 00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 4: power of that. That's really one of the things that's 620 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 4: to look at to understand which ones are more complicated, 621 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 4: more addicting than others. 622 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 7: That's interesting. I guess my question to that though, that 623 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,879 Speaker 7: do we feel like the addiction in dopamine mechanism is 624 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 7: really just the main thing that we should fear for 625 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:17,799 Speaker 7: attention spans. 626 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 5: Less about attention spans, And I think what Perry's talking 627 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,720 Speaker 5: about is this gamification to sort of get the children 628 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:28,960 Speaker 5: into the social media platforms, but it's also about checks 629 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 5: and balances on how the algorithms work. There are cases 630 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 5: in Can't Look Away that feature young people who go 631 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,760 Speaker 5: onto TikTok searching for a young man in Arkansas, searching 632 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 5: for solace after a breakup, and looking for creational videos. 633 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 5: But the algorithms don't respond to what these children are 634 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,799 Speaker 5: looking for. It responds to what they linger on. And 635 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 5: over the course of two weeks, he went from searching 636 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:59,319 Speaker 5: for inspirational videos to being fed a constant stream. And 637 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 5: this is what I think might shock some of the listeners. 638 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,880 Speaker 5: It's not just sad content. It may start there, but 639 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 5: he was receiving videos from TikTok that he did not 640 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,719 Speaker 5: search for, that that were being fed and pushed to him, 641 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 5: that were explicitly telling him to harm himself and explicitly 642 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 5: encouraging suicide to the point where the background of one 643 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 5: of the videos says, you should blow your head off, 644 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 5: And you know, just to put a point on that, 645 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 5: they know what they're doing. The platforms know exactly what's happening. 646 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 5: They know that predators are using their apps to target kids. 647 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,400 Speaker 5: They know that drug dealers are selling drugs, They know 648 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 5: that algorithms push harmful content. That is one of the 649 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 5: most you know, galling pieces of all of this. They 650 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,360 Speaker 5: do it anyway because it works and it keeps kids online, 651 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 5: and that is ultimately what needs to be what needs 652 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,319 Speaker 5: to be changed and what needs to be fixed, and 653 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 5: it can. 654 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 2: Can you tell everybody where they could see. 655 00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,840 Speaker 5: This, Can't look Away is on the streaming service Jult 656 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:05,360 Speaker 5: Jolt dot film. You can access it there and you 657 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 5: can also find out more about the investigation on Bloomberg 658 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:13,760 Speaker 5: dot com. It's important, we think also for any parents listening. 659 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 5: This is a film after you've watched it, that might 660 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 5: be worth watching with your children and it can start 661 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:23,400 Speaker 5: a conversation. And there is a resource guide on Jault 662 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,279 Speaker 5: dot film that a companies Can't look Away so that 663 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 5: you can use as a tool to have conversations with 664 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,279 Speaker 5: your children or other young people who trust you in 665 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:36,720 Speaker 5: your life about the real dangers of social media. 666 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:37,839 Speaker 2: Thank you both so much. 667 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 4: Thank you Mollie. We really appreciate the time and the 668 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 4: opportunity to talk about Can't look Away. 669 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:47,799 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 670 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best 671 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If 672 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend 673 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,680 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.