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Speaker 1: Welcome to Our Skin, a personal discovery podcast. I'm your host,

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Speaker 1: Holly Fry, and it is wonderful to have you here

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Speaker 1: with us. Connection is what this show is all about,

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Speaker 1: specifically connecting about things that we are sometimes afraid to

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Speaker 1: talk about. Today, we're going to be exploring the ups

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Speaker 1: and downs, past and present, personal and universal troubles we

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Speaker 1: have with our skin. Our skin is our most visible organ.

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Speaker 1: What happens on our skin affects the rest of our lives,

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Speaker 1: especially when dealing with a chronic condition. Getting diagnosed with

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Speaker 1: one of these, like psoriasis, can be overwhelming, but you're

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Speaker 1: not alone. Each episode features a personal story of resilience

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Speaker 1: and grace, but our personal stories are threads in a

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Speaker 1: larger tapestry, and there are lessons for us in the

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Speaker 1: history of how we treat our skin and the progress

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Speaker 1: we've made together. Caring for our skin is caring for ourselves.

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Speaker 1: Whether you're seeking inspiration for your own journey or curious

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Speaker 1: about the history of our skin, you'll find empathetic, transformative

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Speaker 1: conversations here on Our Skin. Our guest today is Holly Dylan.

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Speaker 1: She is an executive producer with a rich background in

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Speaker 1: both Hollywood and activism, and she knows how unforgiving the

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Speaker 1: industry can be for people with visible skin conditions. She

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Speaker 1: was diagnosed with siriasis at just fourteen years old, and

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Speaker 1: at twenty she was told by a dermatologist that there

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Speaker 1: were no treatments available to her, which would of course

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Speaker 1: be devastating as her symptoms were really debilitating, and of

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Speaker 1: course siriasis is a lifelong condition, so Holly set out

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Speaker 1: to find answers and community on her own terms. For years,

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Speaker 1: Dylan chronicled her experiences on social media by using the

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Speaker 1: hashtag get your Skin Out, with the hope of connecting

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Speaker 1: with others facing similar conditions. Now Get your Skin Out

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Speaker 1: has grown into a campaign and a support network, followed

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Speaker 1: by thousands that share photos and tis and uplifting communication

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Speaker 1: about things like sariasis, viteligo, stretch marks, hyper pigmentation, and scars.

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Speaker 1: Holly emphasizes the person behind the condition. When we step

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Speaker 1: back into the history of skin today, we're gonna try

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Speaker 1: to get to the heart of what two particular people

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Speaker 1: went through in their times. The writings of Benjamin Franklin

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Speaker 1: and Victorian painter, poet and model Elizabeth Siddel will show

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Speaker 1: us that Siasi's stories have an awful lot in common,

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Speaker 1: even from the distance of hundreds of years. What we

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Speaker 1: have in common builds community, and that is what is

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Speaker 1: important to Holly. She has a superpower for creating impactful

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Speaker 1: stories that drive action and change. Holly, Welcome to our skin.

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Speaker 1: I am so glad you are here with us today.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, thank you so much for having me

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Speaker 2: Holley on Honor to speak to you. And I'm so

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Speaker 2: excited to get the history behind this. It is something

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Speaker 2: that I am yet to dive into. So let's do

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Speaker 2: it today.

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Speaker 1: We'll brace for impact. So I want to ask you

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Speaker 1: some questions. I want to know how this all started.

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Speaker 1: Because you were very very young when your soriasis symptoms emerged.

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Speaker 1: What did you first notice changing on your skin? And

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Speaker 1: at an age where everyone is already a little self conscious.

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Speaker 2: So I was first diagnosed with crisis and it was

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Speaker 2: actually located on the bottom of my chin. And you know,

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Speaker 2: I was fourteen at the time, so very much in

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Speaker 2: the throes of puberty. And if I'm honest, at that point,

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Speaker 2: myself or my family, or my kind of wider network

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Speaker 2: weren't really familiar with crisis. So as a self diagnosis.

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Speaker 2: We thought this was just a part of everybody's teenage

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Speaker 2: journey and I had a spot on the end of

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Speaker 2: my chin, but over a period of time, you know,

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Speaker 2: visually and physically, it felt very different, which is actually

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Speaker 2: what led me to go to my GP in the UK,

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Speaker 2: in London, and that is formally where I first got

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Speaker 2: my accurate diagnosis of crisis, and particularly gutt eight. Crisis,

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Speaker 2: which you know, twenty years on is something that I

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Speaker 2: still live with and sitting here today and speaking to you, Holly,

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Speaker 2: is all over my body, from my face, my ears,

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Speaker 2: my genitals, my back, my legs, you name it. I

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Speaker 2: am truly covered in crisis.

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Speaker 1: Psiasis presents with a lot of different symptoms, and one

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Speaker 1: that a lot of people experience is itching, but that

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Speaker 1: is not everyone's experience, right.

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Speaker 3: I'm glad you brought that up.

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Speaker 2: I think the common symptom that people think that we

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Speaker 2: live with is itchy, flaky, dry skin. But for me,

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Speaker 2: for example, my skin doesn't actually itch that much, which

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Speaker 2: if you were to look at me, might sound absolutely crazy,

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Speaker 2: but for me, mine actually leads more on the dry

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Speaker 2: side and the flaky side, but it does not present

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Speaker 2: as an itch. But I know for many people that

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Speaker 2: I do speak to through Get your Skin Out, that

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Speaker 2: itchiness is absolutely a common factor. And you know, I

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Speaker 2: think really needs to be linked to the kind of

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Speaker 2: mental and physical aspect of living with autoimmune and skin

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Speaker 2: condition likesorisis that having that constant chronic itch and pain

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Speaker 2: and dryness is something that people really struggle with, and

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Speaker 2: You're right, is not acknowledged enough for people's everyday lived experience.

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Speaker 1: I'm really glad that you moved into this space of

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Speaker 1: lived experience because I know for a lot of people,

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Speaker 1: soiasis kind of keeps them from living. They don't get

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Speaker 1: out there and do it. And I think people that

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Speaker 1: don't live with a chronic skin condition probably aren't really

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Speaker 1: cognizant of just how debilitating soriasis symptoms can be. They're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you're itchy, I've got itches before, but that.

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Speaker 3: Is not it.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about that disconnect between

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Speaker 1: people that live with these conditions and people that do not.

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Speaker 2: I think you said it right there that the everyday,

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Speaker 2: normal lived experience that somebody who is not living with

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Speaker 2: a skin condition has no context for us that do.

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Speaker 3: And that isn't to pit each other against each other.

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Speaker 2: It's actually to invite people in for sympathy and understanding

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Speaker 2: where we're coming from. So for example, an everyday task

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Speaker 2: like going to get your food shop. Maybe you're a swimmer,

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Speaker 2: I swim every day, facts size and my kind of

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Speaker 2: mental health, just wearing maybe a short sleeve top in

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Speaker 2: the summer or a pair of shorts. You know, these

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Speaker 2: things that I think on an everyday normal person might

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Speaker 2: not actually think is going to be a huge step,

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Speaker 2: but for someone living with a visible skin condition like

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Speaker 2: me with psoriasis, it is, and it can feel very

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Speaker 2: debilitating because what happens when you take those steps in

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Speaker 2: these normal, everyday routines is you are subject to people's perception,

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Speaker 2: and that perception is often negative. It is often coming

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Speaker 2: with a lot of shame, and you know, for us

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Speaker 2: living with it, that can feel like we don't have

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Speaker 2: a place, and that, unfortunately is the kind of wider

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Speaker 2: societal impact in and around what we should look like,

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Speaker 2: what our bodies should be that has really kind of

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Speaker 2: we've heard this and other kind of body positive movements,

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Speaker 2: but is absolutely a part of our every day living

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Speaker 2: with a visible skin condition as well.

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Speaker 1: Now, I love that you invite people to get in

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Speaker 1: the conversation and ask questions and learn. But I wonder

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Speaker 1: if you've ever had someone who pushes back and minimizes

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Speaker 1: when you try to explain what's going on.

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Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, I mean I think, as I mentioned, I

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Speaker 2: swim every day, so I kind of always have this

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Speaker 2: ready to be braced fight or flight response where I

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Speaker 2: know someone is either going to come up to me

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Speaker 2: and ask an unsolicited question or I'm going to get

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Speaker 2: the megastare down from you know, everybody that's already swimming.

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Speaker 2: The position that I have taken, and this is very

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Speaker 2: much echoed in the person that who I am and

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Speaker 2: through the campaign is really taking an educator active response

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Speaker 2: to educate people and invite them in and instead of

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Speaker 2: meeting them with I guess, aggression or mass frustration, which

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Speaker 2: although I feel it, I contain, I contain myself.

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Speaker 3: I take a deep breath.

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Speaker 2: So yes, there's pushback, but for me, I try and

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Speaker 2: meet it with accurate information, educational as a response and

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Speaker 2: hoping that that person would leave with a more informed

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Speaker 2: understanding view of a skin condition like sir, and in

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Speaker 2: the meantime reshape or repivot their perceptions of what actually

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Speaker 2: living with a skin condition is like.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk a little bit more about the

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Speaker 1: early days of your diagnosis, because here you are as

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Speaker 1: an adolescent with this thing that you know is not

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Speaker 1: just a pimple or something going on. Did it help

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Speaker 1: once you actually had a doctor's diagnosis to contextualize what

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Speaker 1: was going on? Like, did that help you as a

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Speaker 1: fourteen year old or was it all just this sucks?

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Speaker 1: There's no way around.

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Speaker 2: It getting a diagnosis at fourteen. I think whilst I

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Speaker 2: couldn't really register the wider impact that living with a

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Speaker 2: chronic condition would have on my life, I think the

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Speaker 2: first step always is understanding actually what the hell it is?

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Speaker 2: So do you actually have a qualified doctor be able

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Speaker 2: to distinguish and say this isn't just you know, pubescent acne,

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Speaker 2: this is actually prisis in my case, really allowed me

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Speaker 2: to have an informed journey of how.

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Speaker 3: I could live with a skin condition.

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Speaker 2: So it's very important to get your diagnosis if you

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Speaker 2: have access to that healthcare system. But you know, social

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Speaker 2: media when I started Get your Skin Out and now

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Speaker 2: has also become a wonderful route for people to have

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Speaker 2: visual representation and identification to go, hey, I think that

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Speaker 2: looks like me. I haven't actually gone to the doctors yet.

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Speaker 2: I haven't had this access, but I'm going to take

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Speaker 2: these images of all of these people and say, I

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Speaker 2: think I have this thing.

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Speaker 3: What do you think, doctor? So I think yes.

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Speaker 2: Step one if you can is get an accurate diagnosis

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Speaker 2: of what you are living with, so then you can

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Speaker 2: feel informed and have choices about how you live your life.

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you brought up social media because

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Speaker 1: community is such an important thing for people that deal

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Speaker 1: with any chronic condition, but especially something that shows up

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Speaker 1: on your skin like psoriasis, feels very isolating and sometimes

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Speaker 1: people feel like they need to hide and that there

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Speaker 1: isn't someone else to reach out to you. And this

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Speaker 1: is what brought you to the twenty twenty three campaign

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Speaker 1: Forget your Skin Out. There were no people hiding in

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Speaker 1: those pictures out there and showing off, So you really

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Speaker 1: took over in New York. Will you talk about that

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Speaker 1: a little bit?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean I think rewinding, you know, at fourteen

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Speaker 2: and then through that kind of doctor route, I never

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Speaker 2: met anybody with crisis. All I was shown in these

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Speaker 2: seven minute dermatology appointments were these stick figures where they'd

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Speaker 2: get out a pencil and you know kind of do

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Speaker 2: this frantic dotting and go does this look like you

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Speaker 2: with crisis?

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Speaker 3: So I think for me.

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Speaker 2: Get Your Skin Out was born out of a need,

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Speaker 2: a need to create, a need to meet people who

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Speaker 2: understood my lived experience and could really relate to me

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Speaker 2: When I said, isn't it a pain in the ass

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Speaker 2: when you shave your legs covered with crisis and then

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Speaker 2: it's a bloody massacre? Or you know, how do you

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Speaker 2: feel about being intimate with crisis or vitiligo at acne.

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Speaker 2: So I think social media at that time, which was

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Speaker 2: ten years ago now when I started Get Your Skin

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Speaker 2: Out and now has been instrumental to people living with

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Speaker 2: visible skin conditions to feel connected, to really move what

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Speaker 2: feel very isolating and as I said, have that visual

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Speaker 2: representation and identification where people can see themselves. And so

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Speaker 2: New York last year for World Crisis Day, I used

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Speaker 2: Get your Skin Out and really cast community members and

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Speaker 2: I said, I have this wonderful opportunity to put us

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Speaker 2: in the middle of New York and I'm talking from

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Speaker 2: you know, Times Square, in the middle of the theaters, all

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Speaker 2: the way to Prospect Park to Brooklyn to Chelsea. We

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Speaker 2: were everywhere, and I did a month long activation where

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Speaker 2: we took over these digital screens and I think having

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Speaker 2: us as a community, very proud, very present, owning our

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Speaker 2: bodies with our conditions, which that year was just psiasis

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Speaker 2: was very meaningful to people to know that they had

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Speaker 2: a place that they could feel seen and that we

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Speaker 2: could belong. Really and having it prominent in New York

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Speaker 2: was life changing, It really was.

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Speaker 1: That is such a huge activation that I am sure

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Speaker 1: that it brought a lot of new people to your community.

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Speaker 1: And I'm wondering if you were surprised by one the

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Speaker 1: reaction and the rush to this great community, but two,

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Speaker 1: I suspect that people who are being seen for the

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Speaker 1: first time by someone that they know understands what they're

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Speaker 1: living with, are very capable of opening up in a

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Speaker 1: way they maybe have it before. What has that been

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Speaker 1: like for you, and how candid do people get with

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Speaker 1: you about their personal lives.

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Speaker 2: Hearing from the community directly, be that a message through

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Speaker 2: get your Skin out, or you know, sharing their images

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Speaker 2: to be used in an activation like New York last

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Speaker 2: year is something that I find constantly very moving and

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Speaker 2: deeply touching.

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Speaker 3: And I think what.

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Speaker 2: That really has shone a light on is that because

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Speaker 2: of this community connection and space to exist unapologetically. This

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Speaker 2: isn't about being fixed, this isn't about here's what you

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Speaker 2: need to do. It's just holding space. Really, That's what

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Speaker 2: Get Your Skin Out is has allowed people to be

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Speaker 2: really open and vulnerable with me. And that over the

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Speaker 2: years has really been this archive and catalog, if you will,

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Speaker 2: of people's stories and they can be anecdotal of going

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Speaker 2: to the shop and something happening, or just that they

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Speaker 2: know that they have something like Get your Skin Out

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Speaker 2: as a resource that they can go, wow, I'm not alone.

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Speaker 3: And so to answer your question, it is profound.

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Speaker 2: How much people share and it always shocks me that

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Speaker 2: they trust me with that. So I think you know

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Speaker 2: that trust is something that is always there, and I

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Speaker 2: work to really foster and grow.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to shift a little bit here because you

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Speaker 1: mentioned earlier this is of course an ongoing thing. It's

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Speaker 1: part of your day to day life. What are your

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Speaker 1: flare ups like, how are you dealing with it on

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Speaker 1: a daily basis, What is your kind of day to

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Speaker 1: day ethos like about it?

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Speaker 2: I think over twenty years that has changed, I think,

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Speaker 2: and that is not a fault of my own. I

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Speaker 2: think it's our access point when we are diagnosed first

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Speaker 2: and foremost, as we say, do you know, it's very

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Speaker 2: much a visual looking aesthetically at your skin. So the journey,

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Speaker 2: initially for me anyways, started as how do I do

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Speaker 2: things so my skin is not flaring and my crisis

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Speaker 2: is not showing. But over this twenty year period of

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Speaker 2: living with crisis, I think that has moved into viewing

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Speaker 2: myself and my body as more holistically. So now actually

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Speaker 2: I don't measure myself or where I am by how

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Speaker 2: my crisis looks on my skin. I measure it by

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Speaker 2: where am I mentally, how am I feeling? And I

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Speaker 2: think for me that took a long long time to

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Speaker 2: really bring in the mental health aspect and an emotional first,

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Speaker 2: which for a very rigid producer who lives their life

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Speaker 2: and excel was a hard journey. So to apply that

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Speaker 2: to my skin condition. And so what that really means

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Speaker 2: now is making sure that I'm living a balance life

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Speaker 2: and for me that means exercising every day. It does

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Speaker 2: mean avoiding food groups that you know are triggers. I

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Speaker 2: think that's a word that we use in the community.

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Speaker 2: So yes, I love carbohydrate, and I love pasta and

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Speaker 2: bread and all the good things, but you know, they

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Speaker 2: actually really don't agree with my body. And for me,

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Speaker 2: it's making a wider connection in my body beyond my skin.

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Speaker 2: It's going how does my gut feel? How does my

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Speaker 2: brain feel? Do I have brain fog? Do I feel

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Speaker 2: really sluggish? And so again, removing it just from kind

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Speaker 2: of topically what's on the skin to this kind of

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Speaker 2: full body picture is what has allowed me to live

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Speaker 2: well with psoriasis. And that is a learning every day

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Speaker 2: and I mess up all the time, but you know,

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Speaker 2: I have to be really kind to myself and feel

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Speaker 2: balanced and know that it's a journey.

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Speaker 1: Holly, I want to thank you so much for sharing

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Speaker 1: your story with us, and when we come back, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to share some history with you. So hold tight

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Speaker 1: because after this break, Ben Franklin and Lizzie Siddel, you

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Speaker 1: may be surprised with how much they share with modern

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Speaker 1: psoriasis patience so more. In just a minute, welcome back

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Speaker 1: to our Skin. Today, we are going to delve into

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Speaker 1: a topic that might make you want to scratch an

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Speaker 1: itch just thinking about it. It's something that is one

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Speaker 1: of the most uncomfortable and common symptoms for people who

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Speaker 1: have chronic conditions that affect the skin, like psoriasis, And

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Speaker 1: that is right. We're going to talk about itchiness a

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Speaker 1: little bit. We have discussed a lot already on the

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Speaker 1: show how visible symptoms can take a real toll on

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Speaker 1: people's mental health, but there are also unseen symptoms like

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Speaker 1: itch that really affect people's quality of life as well

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Speaker 1: as their mental health too. So first we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about what itching even is. Is it a physical sensation,

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Speaker 1: is it something more psychological? Sometimes it seems like itching

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Speaker 1: is in itself contagious in its own way, like yawning.

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Speaker 1: If you see someone itching, you will suddenly have an itch.

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Speaker 1: Happens to me all the time. And there's actually a

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Speaker 1: lot of really cool research on these things that we'll

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Speaker 1: get into. And we're also going to peek into the

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Speaker 1: private writings of two historical figures who likely had psoriasis.

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Speaker 1: Benjamin Franklin I think we all know that guy right,

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Speaker 1: good and bad. And Elizabeth Siddell. She was the Victorian

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Speaker 1: era's biggest supermodel before that term even existed. Today we

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Speaker 1: share stuff all the time on social media, but of

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Speaker 1: course in the past people had to put their thoughts

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Speaker 1: and their day to day inklings down in a journal.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to consider this like a dip into

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Speaker 1: Ben and Lizz's Instagram feeds history style. So first we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about what itch is. There is a

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Speaker 1: technical term which is protis. That is a medical term

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Speaker 1: that describes a chronic, irritating sensation on the skin that

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Speaker 1: makes you want to scratch, and that can be localized

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Speaker 1: to one area or it can spread throughout the body.

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Speaker 1: I know I have definitely had itches that are just

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Speaker 1: intense and felt painful, and in fact it have a

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Speaker 1: lot of physiological similarities to pain response. So sensations for

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Speaker 1: itching and pain are both carried over unmilinated nerve fibers.

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Speaker 1: That is the type of nerve fiber that transmits signals

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Speaker 1: from our extremities to the central nervous system, and those

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Speaker 1: nerve fibers originate in the skin and they bring those

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Speaker 1: signals to the brain. So both pain and itch are

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Speaker 1: similar usually unpleasant sensory experiences, but their behavior response patterns

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Speaker 1: are different. Pain creates a withdrawal reflex, whereas itches lead

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Speaker 1: to you guessed it, a scratch reflex. Clinically, itching is

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Speaker 1: basically treated as a very mild form of pain. Its

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Speaker 1: severity is only accessible through patient self reporting, and like

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Speaker 1: chronic pain, chronic itching can be very easily dismissed by others,

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Speaker 1: including medical professionals, because listen, it's complicated. There are, of

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Speaker 1: course physical reasons for an itch, but a two thousand

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Speaker 1: and eight review of studies of itch also revealed that

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Speaker 1: their psychological origins of some itches. Even seeing a picture

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Speaker 1: of itchy things like bugs produces a scratch response in

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Speaker 1: some study participants. Do you find yourself noting that you

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Speaker 1: have an itch response when you see like something that

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Speaker 1: just looks scratchy on TV? Mine is always if I

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Speaker 1: watch a home improvement show and I see the sandpaper,

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Speaker 1: I just want to I want to scratch my entire body.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely, I'm sitting here going yeah, what about

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Speaker 2: that one thing that always makes me itch?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely? I mean I really relate to that.

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Speaker 2: In terms of having this physical response that you just

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Speaker 2: want to go, oh and scratch everywhere and kind of

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Speaker 2: attack the source. But I really relate, you know, even

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Speaker 2: though mine on a day to day is an itchy,

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Speaker 2: I think when it has been actually, particularly if I

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Speaker 2: have a neck flare of my crisis.

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Speaker 3: It is insatiable.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I know, even sitting here talking about it,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, does my ear itches? I think also of

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Speaker 1: my head itches? And I think does my hipitch? Is

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Speaker 1: that going on? I was thinking about recording this show

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Speaker 1: last night as I fell asleep, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: my side itch is like everything that I thought about.

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Speaker 1: I would be like, oh, yes, that is also itchy.

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Speaker 1: What's really interesting in all of this is that we

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Speaker 1: really tend to underestimate how serious itch can be, right

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Speaker 1: because chronic itch also has associations with increased stress, anxiety,

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Speaker 1: other mood disorders, and stress and anxiety can exacerbate an itch.

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Speaker 1: And if there's a condition that causes it, like having

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Speaker 1: a psoriasis flare up at a stressful time, then you

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Speaker 1: are in the vicious cycle where you have wanted to

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Speaker 1: scratch and you have given into that impulse, and then

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Speaker 1: it can actually damage your skin and create a longer

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Speaker 1: cycle of healing, and then you just itch more. It's

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Speaker 1: the cruelest impulse we maybe have as humans. The other

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Speaker 1: thing that is interesting is that it's a non visible

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Speaker 1: symptom unless it shows up in daily life by scratching

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Speaker 1: it right, somebody can't look at you and say, I

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Speaker 1: bet they're itchy. You're doing some some thing physically that

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Speaker 1: shows that, And it has been the object of medical

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Speaker 1: and scientific curiosity literally centuries. People have been trying to

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Speaker 1: figure it out. But it is only more recent that

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Speaker 1: medical research has taken itch actually seriously as a symptom. So,

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Speaker 1: as I'm sure you can imagine, it's hard to design

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Speaker 1: a study that measures a subjective symptom. Yeah, what is that, right?

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Speaker 1: My itch is different than your itch. So because it's

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Speaker 1: self reported, it's always really hard to draw any conclusions

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Speaker 1: about any historical understanding and retroactively apply what we learn

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Speaker 1: about itch from anecdotal evidence. Because what somebody wrote about

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Speaker 1: what they felt, we don't have a way to measure

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Speaker 1: that in an objective controlled way. But thankfully, since the

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Speaker 1: establishment of dermatology as an independent discipline of medicine that

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Speaker 1: happened not until the middle of the nineteenth century, itch

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00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,040
Speaker 1: has gotten a lot more attention as a subject of

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Speaker 1: rigorous scientific investigation. And as we've seen with psoriasis and

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Speaker 1: other skin conditions, generally, right back in the day, when

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Speaker 1: people even reported, oh, I haven't itch, it was often

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Speaker 1: perceived as them having a moral lapse, a lack of hygiene,

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Speaker 1: social issues, impulse control issues. It was always seen as

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Speaker 1: the patient's fault. So I want to know what you

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Speaker 1: have seen in your own activism and in the modern

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Speaker 1: day where those kind of problems still persist, because they

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Speaker 1: do absolutely.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think viewing something like psoriasis or any

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Speaker 2: other skin condition that visually appears on your skin, I

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Speaker 2: think the first thing that people come to is this

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Speaker 2: idea of disgust and shame and therefore that it is

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Speaker 2: your fault that you just said, Holly, right, So taking

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Speaker 2: that step further to go why is this happening? Why

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Speaker 2: is this a body response to actually scratch your skin?

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Speaker 2: Is something that people struggle with every single day. Being

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Speaker 2: able to say, am I stressed because I haven't slept

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Speaker 2: because I've been itching all night?

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Speaker 3: Is that the cycle? Or you know what is it?

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Speaker 2: And getting Clarency on that I really encourage people to

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Speaker 2: do so that people can take these symptoms like the

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Speaker 2: itch seriously.

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Speaker 1: I think too, there's an interesting side benefit of that too, right,

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Speaker 1: where if people are reporting accurately and openly to their

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Speaker 1: medical professional about itch, that's giving us more information so

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Speaker 1: we can develop a better database of understanding so that

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Speaker 1: in another eighty years people will be like, can you

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Speaker 1: believe in the early twenty twenties people were only just

437
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 1: then starting to report itch and that's where we got

438
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,000
Speaker 1: our data from. So it's important you're helping the cause

439
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,719
Speaker 1: if you are open and honest about it. I mean,

440
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 1: there's also that thing right where. I mean, even today,

441
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,480
Speaker 1: if you are in a public place, like you are

442
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,920
Speaker 1: on the train or the subway, or riding a bus

443
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 1: or whatever, even in a crowded restaurant and you start scratching,

444
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 1: people's initial tendency is to lean away or to step away,

445
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 1: so like we are still dealing with us. It gets

446
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 1: a lot of side eye in public, but it's also

447
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,880
Speaker 1: really torturous sometimes not to scratch. And by the way,

448
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 1: as I said a little while ago, you might as

449
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,439
Speaker 1: a listener feel a little itchy just listening to us

450
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 1: talk about itching. That's backed up by research. In twenty

451
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,639
Speaker 1: twenty two, researchers in Saint Louis identified a pathway in

452
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 1: mice brains that is activated when one mouse sees another

453
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 1: mouse scratching. So this itchy feeling that you might be

454
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,719
Speaker 1: having right now has a physical biological basis, just as

455
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 1: much as if you brushed off a leaf or a fly,

456
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,640
Speaker 1: and that might result in you scratching at your arm.

457
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 1: So we said earlier, one of the challenges in researching

458
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 1: itch is that it's hard to standardize, right. How could

459
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 1: anybody tell if two people in their study both mean

460
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,120
Speaker 1: the exact same thing when they talk about itching, even

461
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 1: if they describe it in almost the exact same way.

462
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 1: It's really hard, and self reporting is currently the main

463
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: way that most people communicate about this symptom. That has

464
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 1: not changed over the hundreds of years we've been trying

465
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 1: to learn more. So, so one way to get at

466
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 1: what itch felt like way back when is to look

467
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 1: at some primary sources. And this is where we are

468
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 1: going to talk about good old Ben Franklin, because yes,

469
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 1: it is very likely that he had psoriasis. He wrote

470
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,479
Speaker 1: about something that he called the scurf, although he varied

471
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 1: in writing about it. It wasn't consistent. Sometimes he would

472
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,920
Speaker 1: write it with one f, sometimes with two. And it's

473
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 1: very clear that he really went through it when the

474
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,399
Speaker 1: scurf reared its ugly head. So this is a quote

475
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 1: from October seventeenth of seventeen seventy seven. And this is

476
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 1: actually interesting because it's written in the third person, because

477
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,640
Speaker 1: he was writing this to give to a friend who

478
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 1: was taking it to London to get an expert opinion

479
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 1: about treatment. So he wrote quote, in November seventeen seventy six,

480
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,400
Speaker 1: he made a long sea voyage in which the disorder

481
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 1: sensibly increased part of each arm and of each side,

482
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 1: the small of his back, and parts of his thighs

483
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 1: and legs became covered with the scurf, which became very troublesome,

484
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 1: itching sometimes extremely so to contextualize when this is going on,

485
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 1: this is October of seventeen seventy seven, some big stuff

486
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 1: going on in Ben Franklin's life at that tasting right,

487
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 1: So we're talking about the Revolutionary War, which was in

488
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: its second year. It's interesting because obviously that would have

489
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 1: been stressful, which can be its own trigger. But also

490
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,679
Speaker 1: how much must it have been bothering Ben Franklin for

491
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 1: him to stop and be like, I got to get

492
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: medical advice about this whole situation.

493
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,920
Speaker 3: I love that, But you know, I'm sure people really

494
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:32,440
Speaker 3: relate to.

495
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 2: Them, because, as we've discussed on the show, it is

496
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,119
Speaker 2: a part of everyday life. So Ben Franklin Wool and

497
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 2: everything that he did, you know, freeing America. But you

498
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 2: know you still have bloody cis or the scuff, which

499
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:45,919
Speaker 2: I just I think we should bring that back. I

500
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 2: think we should decide on one f or two.

501
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 3: And bring it back.

502
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 1: I like it with too.

503
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:51,440
Speaker 3: I don't know why. Yeah. Same.

504
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 1: So in seventeen seventy seven when he did this, he

505
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 1: was serving on a commission to France charged with, you know,

506
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 1: getting French financial support or for American independence. He was

507
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: in the middle of very important stuff. But what is

508
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: great and I think is a good model for behavior,

509
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: is that he felt very comfortable recounting his symptoms very candidly.

510
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 1: He didn't hold back. He talked about everywhere it was. So,

511
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 1: you know, we have been talking him a lot about

512
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 1: people feeling judged or otherwise misunderstood and how that can

513
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: lead to avoidance of medical treatment. Do you still see

514
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 1: that today? I know you want people to see past that,

515
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,479
Speaker 1: and you've talked about this being an important initial step,

516
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: But I feel like there are probably people that are

517
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,160
Speaker 1: out there that know something's going on with their skin,

518
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: but they're also really scared to have open conversations with

519
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: doctors or other medical professionals. Do you encounter that in

520
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 1: any of your activism. Yeah.

521
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 3: Absolutely.

522
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 2: I mean, first, I think we should just say for

523
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:52,120
Speaker 2: the show, Ben Franklin was an original get your Skin

524
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 2: Out person, which I just saw that. Let's just have

525
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 2: that as a statement number one. But I think ull

526
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 2: jexu aside. Yes, when people here get your Skin Out

527
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 2: or come to it, I think they get really thrown off.

528
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 2: And this is some of the feedback that I've had,

529
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 2: which is I don't want to get my skin out.

530
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:08,679
Speaker 3: I'm not ready.

531
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 2: That is okay, But I think it's about knowing that

532
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 2: if you ever do come to that or you need it,

533
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 2: that you have choice. And I think sometimes the medical

534
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 2: system really makes us feel that we don't have that

535
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 2: choice because that's the only route in to really get

536
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 2: something that is solidified and medical diagnosis.

537
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 1: Right.

538
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 2: But through community support like get your Skin Out or

539
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 2: many other people that are sharing, you can still feel connected,

540
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 2: you can still feel informed, you can still have information.

541
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 2: Generating something like get your Skin Out and many kind

542
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 2: of community avenues is really about saying there are many options,

543
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 2: and we see you and you can be held.

544
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 1: I want to jump back into some interesting studies that

545
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: have been done. And then I really want to talk

546
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: about Elizabeth Siddel because she's quite fascinating. Yes, there has

547
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 1: been debate in medical literature about whether psychiatric factors are

548
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: act actually the cause or the consequence of chronic itchiness.

549
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 1: The latter explanation seems to be gaining actually a little

550
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: bit of traction in medical literature. There was a recent,

551
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 1: though pretty small study that suggested that half of the

552
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 1: patients that deal with chronic itchiness had at least some

553
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 1: psychological fallout. Most commonly they also had anxiety. And back

554
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds, when our next historical figure lived,

555
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: there was so little knowledge about skin disorders and treatments

556
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: were so rudimentary that patients added emotional distress was not

557
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 1: even considered at all. It just was not part of

558
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 1: the equation. So treating psychological symptoms was not even a thought.

559
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 1: And Elizabeth Siddel had some mental health issues unfortunately, that

560
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: are tied to all of this. So Elizabeth Siddel is

561
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: this really, as I said, fascinating creature. She was an

562
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: English artist, a poet. She was a model associated with

563
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 1: the pre Raphaelite brotherhood. If you have ever seen that

564
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 1: painting of Ophelia lying in a stream by John Everett Malay.

565
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 1: She is the mod for it. Oh, no way she is.

566
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 1: He floated her in a bathtub so that he could

567
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: observe her with that watery effect and paint from that.

568
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: That water was, allegedly though, so cold that she later

569
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 1: sued him to get him to pay her medical bills

570
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 1: because she got pneumonia from sitting for him. Elizabeth is

571
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: also believed to have had a chronic health condition that

572
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 1: resembled psoriasis, and one of her comorbidities was definitely mental

573
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: health issues. Her poetry wasn't published in her lifetime, but

574
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: it is full of references to depression and anxiety and

575
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: troubled thoughts. And she passed away at just the age

576
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 1: of thirty two in eighteen sixty two from a misuse

577
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: of laudanum, which was, for anybody that doesn't know, a

578
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 1: powerful and very addictive mixture of alcohol and morphine. And

579
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 1: when she died, she also had arsenic in her system

580
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 1: that was very likely part of a treatment for her

581
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 1: skin disorder, so a diluted solution of arsenic was often

582
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: applied topically to plaques when people present with them. If

583
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 1: arsenic on her skin sounds bananas to you. Here's the thing. Remember,

584
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 1: she was trying to be and she really was the

585
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 1: supermodel of the Victorian era, and their beauty standards were

586
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: just as strict as ours, which is very relatable. She

587
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: was under a lot of pressure. And then, to top

588
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: it off, in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, the medical

589
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: understanding of skin conditions was very rudimentary. Things like psoriasis

590
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: were often misunderstood, they were just as often misdiagnosed. This

591
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: led to a variety of treatments that ranged from ineffective

592
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 1: to flat out dangerous. We just talked about arsenic. Ben

593
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: Franklin and Elizabeth Siddall's experiences provide insight into the challenges

594
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 1: that were faced by individuals with chronic skin conditions during

595
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 1: these periods. And we've seen through these experiences that chronic

596
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 1: skin conditions have been part of humanity forever, affecting both

597
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 1: physical and mental health, even if people were not cognizant

598
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 1: that those two things were so tightly tied together at

599
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 1: the time. The historical accounts really give us a deeper

600
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: understanding of all of these struggles. The same things, Holly,

601
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 1: that you have been educating people about and helping them

602
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 1: with have been problems for a long time. Perhaps they

603
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 1: would have benefited from a hashtag get the scurf out campaign.

604
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 3: Let's get it trending, let's do it.

605
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 1: You do so much, Holly, to destigmatize psoriasis, And as

606
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: we just saw, that has been a work in progress

607
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: for a really long time. People have been trying to

608
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 1: figure this out for hundreds of years. What do you think,

609
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: knowing all that you know and having been through all

610
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 1: of this activism, what do you think is the biggest

611
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 1: step that we as a global community could take to

612
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 1: help people who may be diagnosed now or in the

613
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: future with that effort of destigmatization.

614
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 2: Ooh, the million dollar question, Holly, right, we all need

615
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 2: all tomorrow exactly. You know, I think it really is simple.

616
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 2: I think it's educating yourself and doing it through communication.

617
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 2: So you ask me, you know, do people come up

618
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 2: and ask me questions all the time? Yes, and by

619
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 2: way of communicating with them, which is really relatable. It's

620
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 2: not bringing in stats and facts or any kind of science,

621
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 2: but it's saying this is me, I am, Holly, I

622
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 2: live with crisis. This is actually what it is. No,

623
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 2: you can't catch it? Did you know this about it?

624
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 2: And really kind of leaning in and inviting people in,

625
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 2: I do think is the best way. The more that

626
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 2: people know and understand what something like crisis is or

627
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 2: other visible skin conditions, the better off we all are,

628
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 2: because with some of the research that you've shared, you

629
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 2: know this isn't a far fetched thing.

630
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 3: This is very common.

631
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 2: You know, if you don't have a skin condition, you

632
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 2: will know someone with one in your immediate circle. So

633
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 2: I have seen the amazing domino effect of just by

634
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 2: me having those conversations or people who are around me

635
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 2: watching me have those conversations and educate people how far

636
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 2: that has gone. And so I think it's about educating

637
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 2: yourself on what visible skin conditions are really about and

638
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 2: how it can affect people's lives with them.

639
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 1: I'm glad that you brought up that sort of secondary

640
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: group of people who know someone who's dealing with a

641
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,720
Speaker 1: skin condition, and in addition to getting as much knowledge

642
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 1: as they can, what do you think is the best

643
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 1: advice or suggestion you can give them about just helping

644
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 1: the person in their life that has a skin condition

645
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: on their day to day.

646
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 2: I think ask with a question if the person that

647
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,839
Speaker 2: you know is comfortable letting you in saying how does

648
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,879
Speaker 2: living with zoriasis affect your everyday life? Is there something

649
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 2: that I don't know? Is there something that you need?

650
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,799
Speaker 2: And I think it's really important. Like with anything, we

651
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 2: can't assume that just because you know that you live

652
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,800
Speaker 2: with the skin condition, you know what you need. Understanding

653
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 2: what you need and communicating that is a lifelong journey

654
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 2: in any area of our lives, because when you do

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Speaker 2: live with a skin condition and your every day let

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Speaker 2: alone kind of the wider public are a part of

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00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 2: it can feel really isolating. So as a support system,

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00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 2: as kind of chosen people is saying I'm here and

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Speaker 2: I'm willing to learn.

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Speaker 1: Holly, you are clearly a powerhouse of a human and

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Speaker 1: your story is very powerful. If you could send one

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Speaker 1: message to listeners who might be kind of grappling with

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Speaker 1: their own diagnosis, what would that.

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Speaker 2: Be, ask for help? I would not be where I

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00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 2: am without asking for help. Get your skin out? Was

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Speaker 2: asking for help? Connecting with people like you, Holly is

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00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 2: asking for help. It is a journey that creates pathways

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00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:33,799
Speaker 2: and it helps this access to information.

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Speaker 3: It's wonderful. So asking for help, I love it, Holly.

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Speaker 1: You are an absolute delight.

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Speaker 3: So are you, Holly. Thank you for giving me my

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Speaker 3: history lesson.

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Speaker 1: I love it, I'm here for it. Thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for joining me today. I feel so lucky to

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Speaker 1: have spent this time with you. Likewise, thank you. Our

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Speaker 1: Skin is hosted by myself, Holly fry An, executive produced

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Speaker 1: and engineered by Ryan Martz. Our senior producer and writer

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00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: is Meredith Barnes. If you enjoy the show, share it

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00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 1: with your friends. You can also listen and follow on

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Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

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Speaker 1: podcasts