WEBVTT - Importance Of Blockchain In Cryptocurrency 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:07.680 So the big question is this, how do investors like 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:11.800 us get access to the ideas, information, and most importantly, 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:14.880 the right people that give us the tools and information 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:19.000 we need to make conformed and educated decisions to have success. 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:22.360 That is the question, and this podcast will give us 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:25.480 the answers. This is Mark Moss, your host. Let's get 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:28.680 this started, all right, Welcome to another episode of the 0:00:28.720 --> 0:00:32.400 Market Disruptors podcast. I am joined today by Kate Mitzlmacher, 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:35.360 and she is the founder and CEO of block Accelerate, 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:38.440 which is a fund that's in the blockchain space and 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:40.120 and really getting into a lot of these projects we're 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:43.200 going to talk about, but let's just get into it. So, Kate, 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:45.320 welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:48.240 All right, thanks for coming so um just for those 0:00:48.280 --> 0:00:50.680 that don't know more than that, just little intro, tell 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:53.199 us who you are and kind of your background and 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:55.080 how you got to where you are and what you're 0:00:55.080 --> 0:00:58.800 doing right now. Sure. So, I am the CEO founder 0:00:58.920 --> 0:01:04.480 of a fund specifically dedicated to deploying capital into this 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:08.959 emerging space called Blockchain um Are fund. Of sort of 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:13.119 hypothesis driven in our thesis is that blockchain is going 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:16.160 to generate trillions of dollars worth of wealth over the 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:18.760 next five to ten years. We see it as the 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:23.760 next inflection points similar to the Internet, similar to microchips, 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:28.360 similar to Industrial Revolution, when enormous amount of wealth came 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:31.920 out of the innovation and those who managed to create 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:36.440 companies around it capitalize on that innovation within the same 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:39.479 sort of wave is going to happen with blockchain. And 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:42.920 we see this fund as a dedicated vehicle not just 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:47.640 to invest in companies, but help them scale, build the 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:51.240 infrastructure to help them succeed. Um. And that's sort of 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:55.600 what we were focused on today. Great, all right, UM, 0:01:55.880 --> 0:01:58.320 there's definitely a need for that, right any you're kind 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:00.800 of at the front helping these companies get up off 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:05.640 the ground, really helping push the industry forward. I like that. Um, 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:07.400 do you want to tell us, like, uh, I mean, 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:10.480 were you involved in tech or finance or economics before 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:14.959 you got to this position? Yeah? Sure so. I guess 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:17.640 the way that I got involved with blockchain is I 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:19.919 was fortunate to be in the right place at their time, 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:22.959 like a lot of people, and um, and I was 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:26.440 involved with technology since two thousand and eight. I was 0:02:26.480 --> 0:02:30.639 working for a global research firm called Gartner, where we 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:34.720 got a chance to track trends or cloud computing to 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:40.000 big data, to cybersecurity, and blockchain came about in about sixteen, 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:43.000 and that's when we formed a division to track more 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:45.200 than a hundred different proof of concepts, and that's when 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:47.720 I sort of started seeing this wave of interest coming 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:52.760 from enterprises. It was enormous amount of inquiries to Gardner 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:56.040 from c i os of fortunate companies who wanted to 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:59.040 learn about this technology. And I sort of saw this 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:03.720 parag so not enough startups coming to us and trying 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:06.200 to pitch to those enterprises. So to me, it seems 0:03:06.240 --> 0:03:10.920 sort of been a symmetric um market dynamic that I 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:14.720 thought was interesting and in two seen when I left, 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:17.920 I thought it's a perfect time to come in and 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:20.679 start building out the infrastructure because it's going to take 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:23.200 a few years to close the gap between where the 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:27.800 expectations were with blockchain when everybody got excited about it, 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:31.320 about all the different use cases, but the technology wasn't 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:35.600 quite ready yet, so the timing was good. But just 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:38.320 a quick story about myself, I think that might be 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:43.280 interesting for listeners to hear, is that while my fund 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:49.320 is focused on making returns UM and UH financial returns 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:53.920 to all peace. Personally, I'm driven by this mission to 0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:57.880 make blockchain ubiquitous. And the reason for that is because 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:00.560 of where I come from. UM. I was born and 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:04.760 raised in the Soviet Union, UM, and the environment that 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:07.720 I was raised in was extremely centralized. There was nothing 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:12.320 anything but open financial infrastructure that we're trying to imagine. 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:16.599 And today said, to give you an example. In my mother, 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:20.760 UM was out of job. She was an aerospace engineer 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:24.839 and militarization happened. She had to go start a business. 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:28.120 So she went to a bank and we only had 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:31.719 one bank in my hometown of seventy thousand people, and 0:04:31.760 --> 0:04:34.240 she had to borrow money and a hundred percent interest rate, 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:39.200 and that's literally the only option she had to gain 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:44.320 access to capital. So she borrowed money. Between n two 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:48.479 we had a three thousand percent inflation because Russian rouble 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:52.640 was collapsing, the country was unstable, and obviously she had 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:56.320 to go bankrupt. She did it multiple times, and finally 0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:01.760 she had built a business, started generating cash flow. We 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:05.080 started building a house on a beautiful bank over river, 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:08.760 and that was the year of financial crisis, and that's 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:13.480 when rubal devalued thirty x within twelve months and then 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:17.680 sixty x within forty eight months. So it was sort 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:22.400 of this living through this continuous wave of fluctuation where 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:25.280 you don't know what you're going to do next day, 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:29.440 like let alone next year, gave me a thing appreciation 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:35.839 for hedge against your local currency. It was rubal um. 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:40.640 And in many other cases in countries such as Venezuela 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:45.320 or Brazil, or many countries in Africa like Zimbabwe, where 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:48.960 you know, the inflation was in trillions of percentage points. 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:52.280 I think that's sort of a an interesting use case 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:55.760 that we here in the United States still necessarily see 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:59.440 as a little hanging growth. Yeah, definitely. And you know 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:01.160 a lot of people the United States do kind of 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:03.159 get that tunnel vision where they look at the US 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:04.760 doesn't see that they don't have that problem. But this 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:07.960 is global. This is a global thing. Um. Now in 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:11.479 is that when the Soviet Union fell, was that the 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:17.520 USSR fel still in and then between we try to 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:23.480 sort of bring this democratic capitalistic system in place and failed. 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:26.960 I thought, I remember somewhere like in the mid nineties 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:32.159 watching the TV like as like it was coming down. Maybe, 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:35.560 but I don't know, maybe not. I think August of 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:39.120 nineteen one, I still remember watching TV and taking strolling 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:44.480 into Kremlin. Yeah so then so then through that period, 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:47.400 I mean, we had you had seen the currencies crashing 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:50.040 through inflation. I'm guessing at that point the governments for 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:53.239 printing more money. It was devaluing the currency. Your money 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:57.479 was losing value, um, and you're paying exorbit rates to 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:00.760 borrow and your money was invo at the same time, right, Well, 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:05.839 essentially the central banks collapsed on its payments all together. 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:10.120 I recently heard a story actually just last week. I'm 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:12.280 curious to get your take. So it was a there's 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:15.320 a book written about y MR Germany crashing after World 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:19.160 War Two, and it was kind of like a autobiography 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:21.840 of people that lived through that and they said that, um, 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:24.600 as it was happening, they didn't really feel like their 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:27.160 money was losing value. They thought everything else was just 0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:29.920 getting more expensive. Do you think that's how it was 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:31.720 or did you not look at it that way? That's 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:34.680 a good way to look at it. But a lot 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:37.680 of expenses we had were actually in US dollars. That 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:40.840 was at the time a professional form dancer. That's a 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:44.840 funny story about it, and all of my lessons were 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:48.680 in the US dollars. Um So for us, I remember 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:52.360 getting going to a kiosk in exchanging money and at 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:55.080 one point it was six to one and the next 0:07:55.120 --> 0:07:58.680 day was sixty to one. So in a way, everything 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:02.040 is becoming more expensive. If um, so you did see 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:04.559 things getting more expensive at that time, you didn't really 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:07.720 look at it as your money was losing value. I 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:10.360 think those are the same things. Well. I think like 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:12.640 a lot of times, even in the United States, right, like, 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:15.840 people see prices getting more expensive, but they don't realize 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:19.080 that their money is actually losing value. And I think 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:21.920 that's a big different, different way to look at It's 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:24.600 the same thing. It's the same thing, like you said, um, 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:27.120 but someone who's seen the extreme side of it, you 0:08:27.120 --> 0:08:30.000 obviously have a different opinion. So well, having lived in 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:32.480 Russia and now having lived in the United States for 0:08:32.520 --> 0:08:36.520 the last thirteen years, I don't think US dollars losing 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:41.000 value at any rate close to what we've seen in 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:44.360 any other countries. Yeah, And I think in that way 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:48.080 we have been pretty lucky here was somewhat of a 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:52.280 stable currency that we can somewhat rely on, even though 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:56.199 we have ninety trillion plus debt as a country and 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:01.000 certainly have a lot of problems, but we're lucky in 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:04.440 that way. Yeah. Sure. So then, um, were you first 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:07.720 drawn to bitcoin as like a new money that gave 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:09.720 you this hedge like you said you were looking for 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:12.880 this hedge or did you more see like the technology 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:15.440 and kind of dove in that way? So first I 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:19.560 saw a bitcoin, and that's when I made my investment, um, 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:22.760 thinking it's probably going to go to zero, but nonetheless 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:25.120 it was it was a sort of a bath or 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:28.440 a hedge. Um. And then in parallel to that, I 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:31.959 was doing my masters at Harvard in international relations and 0:09:32.040 --> 0:09:34.840 foreign policy, and that's when I started getting exposure to 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:38.640 some of the social impact of blockchain, specifically as was 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:43.600 studying the case study at Hondora's um and the issue 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:48.880 they had with land titles, when essentially you own your land, 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:50.920 but you have no way to prove it other than 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:54.520 a piece of paper that government had issued and then 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:59.800 kept the centralized database the record off and then some 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:03.120 his brother in law would go to the government, change 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:05.560 the record, and your property has gone forever. So to 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:08.040 me that sort of opened my eyes to the blockchain 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:11.080 and the impact that I can have. And then, obviously 0:10:11.120 --> 0:10:14.319 of being a gartner, started looking at enterprise use cases 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:19.360 and sort of the conclusion that I came to UM 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:24.200 is that the last ten years of blockchain were very 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:26.320 different from what we're going to see in the next 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:30.000 ten years of blockchain. UM. The last ten years of blockchain, 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:35.160 we're all about cryptic currencies, digital goal, digital cash, other 0:10:35.200 --> 0:10:38.800 forms of coins, privacy coins. And not to say that 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:43.479 this category is going away, it's actually going up exponentially 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:45.959 as well. But what we're going to see over the 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:48.679 next ten years is going to be more and more 0:10:48.800 --> 0:10:54.680 adoption of the actual blockchain technology by enterprises and governments 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:59.360 around the world, and revenue generating companies coming to fruition. 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:02.160 And that's sort of the angle that our fund is 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:05.160 looking to capitalize on. We already have a few investments 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:09.880 UM identified that we're deploying capital into that are making revenues, 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:14.320 selling to fortune part hunter companies, creating real business outcomes, 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:19.120 and that's what's interesting. So blockchain technology can be used 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:22.200 for many different things, one being a new monetary system 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:24.520 or as a money or payment system, but then there's 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:27.640 other use cases UM, and that's kind of where you're focusing, 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:30.720 so other types of applications where the technology could work, 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:35.240 and I can walk you through our thesis more granularly. Yeah, 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:38.520 I'd love it. I'd be great. Why don't we hear that? Sure? So, 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:42.320 um think about it as a stack, if you will. 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:45.240 That's how we view it. And at the bottom of 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:49.120 the stack we have the protocols. And you probably are 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:53.760 familiar with a theory called the fat particle theory, which 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:58.080 we agree to a certain extent, so the fat protocol 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:01.440 theory for those who don't know sense release states unlike 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:04.480 the aren N when t c P i P was invented, uh, 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:07.360 Tim burners Ley did not monetize it. The protocol layers, 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:11.240 the company's the facebooks, the Googles of the world came 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:14.520 on talk to c P i P. They a crude 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:17.559 majority of the value. They say blockchain is going to 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:23.360 be reversed. So the protocols, the likes of Ethereum, eos Um, Cardonna, 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:27.720 you know, they hash grown. They're the ones monetizing and 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:31.120 everything else sort of a sin a layer of the stack. 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:36.400 Our hypothesis is that it's only going to be true 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:42.080 for the next few years until protocols become commoditized. At 0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:45.000 some point in time, the technology will become good enough. 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:49.880 There might be four or five six protocols dominating the market, 0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:55.400 maybe silver, gold, Platinum, then a flavor for financial services, 0:12:55.440 --> 0:12:58.720 the flavor for supply chain and everything else will sort 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:02.240 of become consolidated and the technology will be good enough, 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:05.560 and that's when the value will move up the step 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:09.600 to the application layer. So what this means for us 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:13.720 is that at the moment we are investing in protocols, 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:17.040 but we think majority of our investments, because our fun 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:19.839 term is five to ten years, the majority of our 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:24.680 investments will fall into the middleware layer and into the 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:28.120 application layer. And I can talk a little bit more detail, 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:31.360 and so um for everyone that's listening that doesn't quite 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:35.000 follow along. So um, in the Internet, we have protocols 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:37.800 that are standardized things that everybody builds too. And she 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:39.880 mentioned t c P I P, which is kind of 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:42.760 how the information is found and transmitted. But there's also 0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:45.920 other protocols. So we have a protocol for email, right SMTP. 0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:50.120 We have a protocol for security. So there's different types 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:54.160 of protocols for different types of things. And um, I 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:57.920 guess just talking on this protocol layer. Right now, you're 0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:01.000 saying that we're seeing just a ton of protocols. Seen 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:03.679 was the protocol war or whatever. But you think it's 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:07.480 going to settle down to just a couple of protocols, Well, UM, 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:11.000 don't quote me on numbers. It's UM, it's really hard 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:16.480 to tell how many protocols will will dominate. But the 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:19.119 bottom line, there will be a finite number of protocols. 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:22.960 We're not gonna need a hundred plus protocols. UM. There 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:27.720 will be interoperability among those protocols. They will become scalable 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:32.200 at the moment they're not UM, GDP are compliant, UM 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:34.960 and so forth. And when that happens, that's sort of 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:37.680 when the protocol later will become commodities. I think the 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:44.880 ultimate value is about building real products and services for 0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:49.880 consumers and for enterprises. Regardless what blockchain protocol it's on, 0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:53.600 it should be invisible, it should be working, UM, it 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:56.440 should be good enough. UM. Nobody needs to know that 0:14:56.480 --> 0:14:59.560 it's built on ethereum on it's building hyper LEGA just 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:07.800 needs to how the properties of immutability, transparency, auditability, ability. 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:10.560 I'm curious on that. So you just said immutability, So 0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:14.960 for me. I'm like, if you don't need censorship resistance 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:17.160 and immutability, what you need a blockchain for? Just go 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:21.040 have a database. I'm curious, especially with your background UM 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:24.120 from Russia and then even referencing like Honduras, it seems 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:27.480 like the censorship resistance portion is a big piece of that. 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:30.600 And it seems to me that that starts at the 0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:35.720 protocol layer. So applications could be built that are less immutable, right, 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:37.840 so they have you know, claud acts or whatever, but 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:40.720 it has to start at the base layer. Do you 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:43.240 agree with that or not? Really? Well, I think there's 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:45.920 two different questions there. The first one I used to 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:48.960 agree with you, then I changed my mind a little 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:51.200 bit on that. Okay, So I think there's a set 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:55.080 of use cases that would not survive without a blockchain, 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:59.480 meaning there's no other way for you to do completely 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:06.560 fair are resistant, government resistant, land title system on a 0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:09.720 private blockchain. It has to be done on a public 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:14.840 chain because true public chain is truly immutable. That's sort 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:18.200 of the core value proposition of it. Voting, for example, 0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:22.000 that could be another example of where mutability truly matters. 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:27.440 But there's a lot of use cases where UM immutability 0:16:27.520 --> 0:16:30.400 is important, but it's not a deal breaker like a 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:35.840 video game, right, yeah, for a video game, or let's 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:41.160 even just say, um, you know, provenance of of seeds 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.000 in a supply chain is as long as you can 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:48.440 sort of track back the time stamped order of when 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:51.800 and where they came from, and you have regulators in 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:55.800 the network who confirmed that this was indeed, you know, 0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:58.800 stamped at the right time. You know, if you go 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:01.520 back and change it and you can see that somebody 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:03.560 change that, it's sort of not not the end of 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:06.439 the world. So I think eventually I see it as 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:10.240 three three reasons to do things on the blockchain. Number 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:15.600 one is a mutability. Number two is whenever you're working 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:19.360 with multiple parties who don't know and don't trust each other, 0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:22.399 and they need to sort of have a single version 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:28.399 of truth that is somewhat immutable and without having a 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:35.119 centralized intermediary controlling that version of truth, that's when blockchain 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:40.000 makes a lot of sense. And number three is programmability, 0:17:40.280 --> 0:17:45.959 meaning when this happens, then this is the outcome. If 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:50.880 you if your flight is delayed, you should get your 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:54.000 flight insurance, or if your flight is canceled, you should 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:57.840 get your money back. So whenever there's if this and that, 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:01.080 then smart contract could ability makes a lot of sense. 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:04.480 And that's sort of immutability or no immutability, it's still 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:09.080 a really good use case for latching. Yeah. Great, Okay, 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:11.560 So if we're moving up the stack, you had talked 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:14.679 about like the industrial revolution, and I've studied all these 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:18.320 industrial revolutions, or actually say technological revolutions. There's been five 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:20.879 in the last two or fifty years. It looks like 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:23.920 even though they're different technologies, they all kind of evolved 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:27.199 the same way, it seems to me. And uh, you 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:30.399 talked about, you know, going from protocols to applications, but 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:32.359 really if you look at the Internet as the as 0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:35.800 the last revolution, well anyway, I don't think that's part 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:38.440 of the revolution, but anyway, Uh, you kind of have protocols, 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:40.520 which would be the t C P I P s, 0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:43.000 but then it didn't go straight to applications, right, so 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:46.280 then we have like platforms in between. So like for example, 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:51.000 Instagram or Instagram's a app, but it's on iOS and 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:54.520 iOS runs on tc pH And I think you reference 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:56.639 that with like your middleware, right, is that kind of 0:18:56.640 --> 0:18:59.280 what you're talking about? So what I'm talking about when 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:02.240 I think about middleware, in my view of the stack 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:08.280 is three things. One is protocol enabling layer, application enabling layer, 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:13.560 and then identity enabling layer. So there's sort of platfora 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:18.560 of companies that are solving problems on the protocol, the 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:24.160 issues around operability or interoperability, security, privacy, those are sort 0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:31.119 of platform enabling layers UM application enabling layer in a way, 0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:34.200 is what you're talking about is how can you get 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:37.720 access to the platfor of applications out there, while in 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:41.320 univerrows er UM, you know you need some form of 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:45.440 an operating system, you need UM the wallet even to 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:50.800 or some form of identity which leads into the upper layer, 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:53.439 which is the identity and if so, I sort of 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:58.840 see those three as the middleware UM. And then it's 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:04.200 interesting because one comp anywhere investing in right now, they 0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:07.640 are a fork or ethereum. So they created a fork 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:12.200 m ethereum, but they are essentially configured that fork to 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:16.680 appeal to what enterprises would want to see, such as 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:22.760 high throughput permission GDP, are compliance security, and they sort 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:27.120 of enabling those enterprises to build applications on top of 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:30.440 those bottom protocols even though it's a fork. So I 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:33.240 sort of see that even as a middlewhere because it's 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:38.520 also not industry specific, it's across um in industry agnostic, 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:43.320 across multiple companies, multiple industries. Do you think that's kind 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:45.359 of like what we saw though in the Internet days, 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:47.880 where um, you know, in the early nineties, all these 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:50.119 companies said, oh, we can't be on this public Internet, 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:53.880 We're gonna build an intranetum. But eventually everybody came around 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:55.720 and everybody's on the open Internet. Do you think we're 0:20:55.720 --> 0:20:58.920 seeing the same thing with that. I do, even though 0:20:59.359 --> 0:21:01.680 we are invest seeing those types of companies, I don't 0:21:01.720 --> 0:21:03.600 think it's a deal breaker because they can always ce 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:06.120 mibrate to the public chain. And I sort of see 0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:08.720 the matter of time, at some point in time, the 0:21:08.760 --> 0:21:12.600 public chain will become good enough to handle throw quote 0:21:12.600 --> 0:21:18.119 it to become permissioned when it's necessary or um uh 0:21:18.440 --> 0:21:23.439 private privacy of data and when there's different there's different 0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:25.959 investing thesis and time frames too, so like this might 0:21:25.960 --> 0:21:27.680 be a really good investment for the next five years, 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:30.280 but then eventually it changes or something that's right. So 0:21:30.280 --> 0:21:33.359 it's an evolution, and I think we're in very early days. 0:21:33.440 --> 0:21:37.040 It's sort of we just invented electricity and we're trying 0:21:37.040 --> 0:21:41.840 to Teleration said, that's totally what's happening. So that's a 0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:43.960 that's a great that's a great point, and I wanted 0:21:43.960 --> 0:21:46.320 to ask you about that. Right. So, um, they say 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:49.160 that being early is the same as being wrong. Right, 0:21:49.200 --> 0:21:50.960 You're not going to create a television when you just 0:21:51.000 --> 0:21:54.119 create electricity. We saw in the internet days again, you 0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:56.200 know the famous pets dot com explosion. That was a 0:21:56.240 --> 0:21:58.479 great idea and people buy all their pet stuff online, 0:21:58.560 --> 0:22:00.920 but there was nobody buying an thing online at the time. 0:22:01.200 --> 0:22:05.040 So I believe there's like the sequencing, right, And do 0:22:05.080 --> 0:22:07.440 you agree with that? And if so, like do you think, 0:22:07.520 --> 0:22:09.879 like Depps, is not the time for depths, like right 0:22:09.960 --> 0:22:12.720 now we're still kind of in the protocol, maybe into 0:22:12.800 --> 0:22:17.119 the protocol, maybe into that middlewhere layer right now and 0:22:17.160 --> 0:22:20.119 then depths come later or how do you look at that? No, 0:22:20.520 --> 0:22:22.720 I don't think so. I think there will not be 0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:25.400 any successful protocols and there's not going to be any 0:22:25.400 --> 0:22:29.919 successful depths. So one is sort of driving another. I 0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:34.200 think we just got a notification that run out of time. 0:22:34.680 --> 0:22:39.199 We got it. Um, but I think that applications is 0:22:39.240 --> 0:22:42.640 what's ultimately going to drive this industry to be successful. 0:22:43.320 --> 0:22:46.000 And I think if we try to time it too carefully, 0:22:46.000 --> 0:22:49.359 we're going to miss out. Nobody knows whether we're in 0:22:49.359 --> 0:22:56.040 the or whether in two thousand four isn't. Many people 0:22:56.040 --> 0:22:59.520 are trying to guess. They're probably mostly wrong. So the 0:22:59.600 --> 0:23:02.000 best it to look at it is one by one 0:23:02.040 --> 0:23:05.560 basis is looking at companies the problems they're trying to solve. 0:23:06.119 --> 0:23:10.159 Are they solving problems with blockchain where the blockchain is 0:23:10.200 --> 0:23:13.720 actually needed? Um, and are they getting traction? You know 0:23:13.800 --> 0:23:16.960 they're getting traction, they're probably getting revenue. So that's sort 0:23:16.960 --> 0:23:19.439 of that's a better way to look at it. And 0:23:19.520 --> 0:23:22.280 try to say, oh, we're only investing in protocols and 0:23:22.520 --> 0:23:25.359 we're only investing in middle where we're only investing in 0:23:25.800 --> 0:23:30.480 you know, site chains. That's nonsense. So you've identified the 0:23:30.480 --> 0:23:33.560 different layers, but you're investing into the best projects that 0:23:33.640 --> 0:23:36.720 you find in each one right now, Yes, because we 0:23:36.760 --> 0:23:38.560 don't know where the timing is. Yeah, I agree. Just 0:23:38.600 --> 0:23:41.000 because it happened you know that way, it may not 0:23:41.119 --> 0:23:43.960 directly apply this time. So that's that I would say 0:23:43.960 --> 0:23:47.000 in the application layer. There are some projects that I 0:23:47.119 --> 0:23:50.119 think more of long term bets than short term vets, 0:23:50.200 --> 0:23:52.800 and I'm not investing in them at the moment because 0:23:52.800 --> 0:23:55.040 I don't think it's gonna happen in the next five 0:23:55.240 --> 0:24:00.000 or so. To give you an example, Um replacing marketplaces 0:24:00.080 --> 0:24:04.080 is like replacing Uber alltogether. In theory, you can run 0:24:04.080 --> 0:24:07.680 a smart contract connect buyers and sellers, drivers and writers 0:24:07.720 --> 0:24:10.760 and just put them on an app that's not following 0:24:10.800 --> 0:24:13.359