1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: President Trump's administration has been rolling back federal regulations on 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:06,920 Speaker 1: a wide array of issues. One of those regulations is 3 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: an Obama Error rule that was aimed at combating salary 4 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: discrimination against women and people of color. The administrat the 5 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:16,479 Speaker 1: Trump administration has delayed the rule, but a coalition of 6 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:19,319 Speaker 1: civil rights groups, including the National Women's Law Center and 7 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: the Lawyer's Committee for Civil Rights under Law, are preparing 8 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: a legal challenge to the Trump administration's delay of implementation. 9 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: Here to talk with us about this rule and what 10 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: the Trump administration is doing about it, or is Michael Selmi, 11 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: a professor at George Washington University Law School. Michael, what 12 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: would this rule do in terms of employers and their 13 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: salary information? The rule was designed to provide more information 14 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: to the federal government regarding pay practices of large employers. Currently, 15 00:00:54,880 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: large employers have to provide demographic information about their workforce UH, 16 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: and this would have extended their obligations to include pay 17 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: data UM broadly categorized in the same way that the 18 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:14,479 Speaker 1: demographic information is done and UM. It's designed to address 19 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:19,839 Speaker 1: pay disparities with respect to women's pay, but the information 20 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: UM would have been more broad than that, and it 21 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: also would have only gone to the federal government. This 22 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: was not going to be publicly available information. UM. But 23 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: it was an effort to collect more information by the government, 24 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: which respect to the pay practices of large employers. Well, 25 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: what was the idea that the What was the government 26 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: going to do with this information once it got it? Well, 27 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: that's the UM. That's a good question. Uh. It can 28 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,559 Speaker 1: do a number of different things. Uh. It can based 29 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: on the information, UH, start investigations of employer practices. They 30 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: do that currently with the demographic information. If they they 31 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: received the information, they have been receiving it for decades. UM. 32 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: If they see why disparities in an employer's workforce, say 33 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 1: it's all white or there's UM over were way more 34 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: men than you might expect given the UM employer or 35 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: the work that they're doing, that they can begin. The 36 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:17,959 Speaker 1: government based on that data can begin an investigation. And 37 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:22,959 Speaker 1: UH they could use the pay data in the same way. UM. 38 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: Whether they would do that or how much action they 39 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 1: would do based on the data, it's it's not so clear. 40 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: But they would not be able to UM disseminate the 41 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: information to private groups who are also gearing up to 42 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: bring UM challenges to employers pay practices, but this would 43 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:42,519 Speaker 1: have information would have remained just what the government would 44 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: have been confidential. So if it's just a reporting statute 45 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: and the only the government's going to have it, what 46 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: is the Trump administration saying about it? So they haven't 47 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: said very much yet. They did, as you noted in 48 00:02:55,040 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 1: the prelude, they put the rule on hold. The the 49 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: employer's obligations to report this inspiration was set to begin 50 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: in March of The rule was announced last year, was 51 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: finalized last year, so they had some lead time to 52 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 1: provide the information, which is basically based on W two 53 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: statements and the like, but there would certainly be some 54 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: burden in reporting it. UM. The Trump administration has put 55 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: that on hold to review, UH, to further review, because 56 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: the Obama administration also reviewed the rule. UM, this was 57 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: not done in formal rulemaking. That was done in a 58 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: more truncated process and UH. What the challenges now is 59 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: at this point is just a foil request by the 60 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 1: civil rights crews. But they want to know essentially why 61 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: the Trump administration put it on hold UM and whether 62 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: they are simply planning to retract the rule or whether 63 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: they have some concerns about the potential costs burdens on employers, 64 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: and so far the Trump administration has not provided any 65 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: information of why they put it on hold, other than 66 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: that they want to review it further. With respect to 67 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: potential burdens, Well, what do we know about how much 68 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: of a burden it would be on employers to provide 69 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: this information. Well, there's UM wide disparities in terms of 70 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: the UH projected costs UM in its rulemaking that they did. 71 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,799 Speaker 1: The e O c UM projected costs of about fifty 72 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: million dollars for the employers. UH. The employer groups the 73 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 1: Chamber of Commerce estimated that the cost would be closer 74 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 1: to four millions, so there was a big gap between 75 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,840 Speaker 1: the two. UM. My sense is that, you know, there 76 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: would certainly be costs, but it should be mostly a 77 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 1: one time costs UM. Once the UM systems were set 78 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: up to record this information, UH, it should be you know, annually, 79 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: it should just be updating the information. And that's true. 80 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: With the current demographic information on race and gender of 81 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: the workforces, UM to pay would be a little bit 82 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: more complicated to do UM, but once they figured out 83 00:04:57,800 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: how to do it, and and that's one of the 84 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,600 Speaker 1: reasons for the delay, It wasn't entirely clear what was 85 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:04,359 Speaker 1: going to be required and how it was going to 86 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 1: be done. UM, but the cost shouldn't be they should 87 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: be one time costs. Well the UM you know, if 88 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: if there if these groups are gearing up for a 89 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: legal challenge by doing a Freedom of Information Act request, 90 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 1: they're gathering information, what do you do you think there's 91 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 1: any sort of procedural problems they're looking at or is 92 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: it really just a matter of trying to figure out 93 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 1: what the Trump Administration's rationalies? Oh? I think these um, 94 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: it's always gamble when the administration, in this instance, the 95 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,919 Speaker 1: Obama administration completes the rule right towards the end of 96 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: the administration before it can really be implemented. And I think, um, 97 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: the civil rights groups uh are probably hoping to find 98 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,799 Speaker 1: something that might lead to a successful challenge that would 99 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: require the Trump administration to implement the rule. But that 100 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: seems unlikely UH to me, especially since it's currently just 101 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: on hold. And UH it's possible too that the newly 102 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 1: cost to the EOC, once they're um fully up with 103 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: Republican majority, they could retract the rule as well. So 104 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 1: it seems to be an effort to try and preserve 105 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: a rule, but I think that's going to it's going 106 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 1: to be a significant challenge for them to be successful 107 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 1: on that. So it sounds like, unlike some of the 108 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:25,359 Speaker 1: places where the Trump administration has run into trouble and 109 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: say environmental regulations and where there are questions about whether 110 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: they followed the Administrative Procedures Act, this one may actually 111 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: be an easier one for them to delay. I think 112 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: that's right in part because the e o C did 113 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: not follow the Administrative Procedures Act. They've used a different process, 114 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: so it should be easier to undo. Although it's it's 115 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:50,280 Speaker 1: possible that the FOIL request could produce information that showed 116 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: what the Trump administration is not supposed to do in 117 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 1: the OMB review is just repudiate the rule. They would 118 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 1: have to it would have to be cost bay and 119 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: it's possible that they didn't have any of that information yet. 120 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: But the fact that it's only on hold also seems 121 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: like the challenge is likely a bit premature because the 122 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: Trump administration has not completed its review of these regulations 123 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: yet or this regulation well, and about we only have 124 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: about thirty seconds. But what would the e o C 125 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: have to do to withdraw the roll. Uh, they could, 126 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: um as and when they're newly cut to they could, 127 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: I believe, just um in their procedures, just withdrawn. And 128 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: probably what they would do is say that they were 129 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: withdrawing it to reconsider it. UM. And Michael, I think 130 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: we're gonna we're gonna have to stop there. Thanks very 131 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: much to Michael sell Me, professor at George Washington University 132 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: Law School