WEBVTT - Optimus is More Human than it Looks But SpaceX Nails the Landing 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:09.960 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:16.000 Well, Elon Musk is now the richest person on the planet. 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:19.159 More than half the satellites in space are owned and 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:21.000 controlled by one man. 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:24.599 Well, he's a legitimate super genius. I mean legitimate. 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:27.440 He says he's always voted for Democrats, but this year 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:28.240 it will be different. 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:29.240 He'll vote Republican. 0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:32.000 There is a reason the US government is so reliant 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:32.400 on him. 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:35.960 Alon Musk is a scam artist and he's done nothing. 0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:39.560 Anything he does, he's fascinating people. 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:52.680 Welcome to Elon, Inc, Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. 0:00:52.800 --> 0:00:56.240 It's Tuesday, October fifteenth, and I'm your host, Max Chafkin. 0:00:56.760 --> 0:00:59.840 This week, in the wake of an more or less 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:03.600 successful or not super successful Robotaxi launch, we're going to 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:06.440 be talking about a mini flood of Elon news stories. 0:01:06.480 --> 0:01:08.280 We had a big win for SpaceX, as well as 0:01:08.280 --> 0:01:11.600 some legal trouble. There's the question of whether those really 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:15.560 cool Optimist robots at the event were just people using 0:01:15.600 --> 0:01:18.640 remote controls. Then we'll turn the mic over to tech 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:21.360 reporter and author Kurt Wagner, who had a great talk 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:24.280 with Ryan Mack and Kate Conger about their new book 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:27.360 on Twitter character limit. Okay, to break down the news, 0:01:27.520 --> 0:01:30.440 we have a real who's who of Elon reporters. Lauren 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:35.920 Grush is joining us from Austin. She covers SpaceX for Bloomberg. Hey, Lauren, Hey, guys. 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:40.320 Ed Ludlow, tech reporter, host of Bloomberg Technology is coming 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:42.880 live to us from San Francisco. Ed, how you doing? 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:43.840 Very good? 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:48.000 Hello, And of course, our old friend and Bloomberg's official 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:52.600 Elon Musk reporter Dana Hall beaming in from the Bay Area. Hello, Dana, 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:56.800 Hi Max. All right, Lauren, let's start with you. SpaceX 0:01:56.840 --> 0:01:59.760 did something pretty impressive this week. It caught one of 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:03.000 it's big starship Rockets, and what the script says, and 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:06.120 I'm not making this up with giant chopsticks, and I'm 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:09.720 hoping you can explain what that means and what exactly happened. 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:10.840 Yeah. 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:12.840 I feel like it takes a lot to surprise me 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:15.920 at this point, just because I cover space so regularly, 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:18.240 but this was one of those feats where I was 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:21.560 actually very taken aback. It was a pretty stunning achievement. 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:26.080 So if for anyone who follows SpaceX just casually, you 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:30.760 probably know that they consistently land their Falcon nine rockets 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:34.200 after launch, where they come back, they reignite their engines 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:37.040 and then they land on landing legs. But with this 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:41.720 it was a whole new type of recovery for their 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:45.280 Starship rocket. So Starship is their vehicle that they hope 0:02:45.320 --> 0:02:47.640 to send to the Moon in Mars. It's quite massive, 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:52.200 the most powerful, the largest rocket ever built, and essentially 0:02:52.520 --> 0:02:56.320 the booster portion which propels Starship to space, came back 0:02:56.360 --> 0:03:00.280 to Earth and rather than land on landing legs, it 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:04.840 ignited its engines to slow itself down, and then two 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:08.520 giant arms attached to the launch tower that it launched 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:13.480 from protruded outward and caught the booster as it came 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:17.200 down with these grid fins that are protruding from the booster. 0:03:17.520 --> 0:03:19.840 So you kind of have to watch the video to 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:22.000 really get the full effect. I don't think I can 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:24.400 describe it as well as the video shows it, but 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:27.880 it was a pretty masterful feat. And I'll be honest, 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:29.760 you know, I think there are a lot of skeptics, 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:32.959 including myself, that were a little unsure about whether or 0:03:33.000 --> 0:03:35.720 not they could pull this off. But I watched it 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:37.840 with my own two eyes. It was pretty incredible. 0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:40.680 And I'm sorry, aren't these things called something like Mecca? 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:42.720 Mecca was Mechazilla? 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:46.760 Yes, you know, SpaceX always loves to have a good 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:49.520 funny name for the things that they built. So the 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:55.080 Mechzilla chopsticks are the nicknames for these two arms that 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:56.760 stick out of the launch tower. 0:03:57.360 --> 0:04:00.520 Yeah. Elon Musk course has away with nicknames and names 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:03.320 and also very good at these kind of you know, 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:06.880 show stopping demonstrations. But Lauren, like, why is this impressive 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:11.000 and like, what does it tell us about SpaceX's progress 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:13.520 with this very large rocket. 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:16.480 Well, I think for me it was impressive just because 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:19.440 the booster, which is called super heavy, is just so 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:23.440 massive and you know, logically just doesn't make sense in 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:26.120 my brain. The fins that stick out of it can 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:30.000 are enough to hold up this massive booster in mid 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:35.200 air basically. But really, the more impressive side of it 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:39.760 is that Starship has been advertised as being fully reusable. 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:42.320 So the Falcon nine, you know, it gets a lot 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:45.280 of attention for being reusable, but it's only partially reusable. 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:48.640 The upper portion of it actually doesn't survive or come 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:52.200 back to Earth. And so this is a key step 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:55.440 because you know, if Starship is going to be fully reasonable, 0:04:55.440 --> 0:04:57.800 you have to save both parts that part of the 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:01.520 test flight. Starship did also survive its re entry through 0:05:01.680 --> 0:05:05.400 Earth's atmosphere, at least mostly. I did see some burn 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:09.440 through of you know, the fins, but it did make 0:05:09.480 --> 0:05:11.200 it back more or less intact. 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:13.880 All right, ed put this in a context of SpaceX 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:16.839 in general. A lot is happening with SpaceX. You know, 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:19.839 a lot of progress with Starlink. I mean, what kind 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:22.920 of year has this company had are they having right now? 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:29.159 So always challenging because of Elon Musk, because they are 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:33.760 intensely followed by regulators and state officials and federal officials. 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:37.720 But the easiest thing for anyone who wants to follow SpaceX, 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:40.600 or has to follow SpaceX to do is take at 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:43.520 face value the bigger picture goal. I'm never going to 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:46.520 be able to put rocket science as poetically to you 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:50.320 as Lauren Grush does, But if you look at each 0:05:50.440 --> 0:05:53.960 mission Starship just gone and say, okay, the goal was 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:57.880 to catch the booster, and the secondary goal was to 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:02.520 have Starship fall through Earth's atmosphere and not disintegrate, you 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:05.360 have to accept that the longer term and bigger picture 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:09.120 goal is to get mankind or humankind to being an 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:13.800 InterPlaNet tree species and get humankind to Mars. And it's 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:15.919 the kind of thing where your journalist and you're sitting 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:20.440 with your editors, your dear friend Donah Hole or you know, 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:22.720 the head of Bloomberg Television, and you sit in front 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:25.400 of them and you say that and they just cannot 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:27.400 accept it. But that's true. 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:31.880 Okay, let's move from deep space and Mars down to Earth. 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:32.320 Dana. 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:35.440 There's a bit of a fight going on right now 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:39.520 between Elon Musk and some local officials in California over 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:42.120 some of these launches, over the sort of plans for 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:44.840 an expansion of these launches from I believe the Vanderberg 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:47.720 Air Force Base, which is in California. What's going on 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:48.039 with this? 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:51.560 Yeah, So I feel like a bit much has been 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:55.480 made about this. The California Coastal Commission, which oversees California's 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:59.960 very beloved and pristine coast like it's worried about the 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:02.840 number of launches. But SpaceX, to be clear, they want 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:05.040 to launch a lot, and they've got multiple launch pads. 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:08.000 They've got Bokachika, they've got Vandenburg and California they've got 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:11.960 the launch pad in Florida, and so like last week, 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:14.800 the Coastal Commission said that they were like worried about 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:18.720 giving SpaceX more launches because of like issues with labor rights. 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:21.640 This is like a non binding rebuttal like it doesn't 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:26.000 actually change anything, but Elon Musk is very upset about it. 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:28.520 He said that SpaceX is going to sue the Coastal 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:32.440 Commission today apparently we haven't seen an actual lawsuit, but 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:35.679 it sort of plays into the larger narrative that Elan 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:37.880 has been pushing, which is that he is a victim 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:41.400 of law fair and that these pesky regulators, whether at 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:44.480 the federal government or in California, are like constantly kind 0:07:44.480 --> 0:07:46.840 of trying to take him down, and that like we'll 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:50.160 never get to Mars without with all this government bureaucracy. 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:53.920 And so it kind of like plays into this narrative 0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:56.119 that he has really been on for quite some time. 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:58.480 You know, ultimately, I'll be curious to see if SpaceX 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:00.280 actually sues and on what grand. 0:08:01.040 --> 0:08:05.960 All right, let's move to robots. Ed you wrote a 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:11.280 story for Bloomberg, I believe, yesterday about these wonderful looking, 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:14.840 these very impressive optimist robots. People at this Tesla event 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:18.800 on Thursday could not believe it. The robots had different voices, 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:23.040 they were cracking jokes, even spoke Spanish. But it appears, 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:25.720 and according to your reporting, that there was a catch. 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:27.160 Yeah. 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:29.560 I did not go to the event. I tried very 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:32.680 hard to, but I was not invited. Many people at 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:36.080 the event could not believe that the Optimius robots were real, 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:39.200 that they were really doing this autonomously. Some people did 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:41.920 suspect that they might have had some help, and some 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:46.080 people did ask the robot if it was having some help, 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:50.200 and there was some confusing posts on X So I said, 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:53.000 we have to confirm this, so I phoned everyone that 0:08:53.080 --> 0:08:58.319 I know, and what we reported is that, yeah, absolutely, 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:02.520 these Optimist spots were helly operated in the interactions they 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:04.040 had with the guests at the event. 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:06.640 And teller operated means remote control. 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:09.160 Right exactly, there were remotely controlled. So there were Tesla's 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:13.360 staff in a warehouse essentially not off site, but away 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:18.400 from the festivities, controlling their movement and I believe their 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:22.559 voice as well, though that is a point of contention. Specifically, 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:25.280 we're talking about things like pouring drinks, and we're talking 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:28.520 about games of rock, paper, scissors, and high fives. However, 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:32.240 there were parts of the Optimus robot's function on the ground, 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:35.840 which I'm told by sources was autonomous, but it's limited 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:38.520 to walking around, which is still a very impressive feat, 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:42.040 although there are other robotics companies that have achieved that historically. 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:44.959 And dancing, so, for example, there are clips out there 0:09:45.000 --> 0:09:48.240 where members of the audience are like doing dances and 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:51.000 the Optimus bot mimics the dance, and my understanding from 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:54.600 sources is yes, that is something the Optimist did of 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:58.160 its own artificially intelligent volition. There's one important point that 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:01.840 I added to my reporting late late in the evening 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:04.600 after the story was published, which is this was a 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:09.360 classic Elon Musk thing. Basically, three weeks ago before the event, 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:13.160 he decided he wanted to have the robots at the event, 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:16.280 and so he told the team that's in charge of Optimus, 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:19.360 make this happen, and they were all like, we cannot 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:22.600 make this happen. There isn't enough time. The Optimist robot 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:26.040 isn't ready, and so teleoperation or remote control was the 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:26.520 only option. 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:29.199 My favorite thing about this story is imagining there were 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:33.600 like fifty Optimist robots or something, and imagining fifty individual 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:37.079 Tesla employees in little phone booths somewhere on that soundstage, 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:40.080 you know, having to play rock paper scissors with all 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:43.920 these like car influencers. Dan, what are we even talking 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:46.280 about here? What is opt I thought this was a 0:10:46.320 --> 0:10:48.920 cyber cab event. Why are we even talking about this? 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:52.000 Well, I think the fact that the cyber cab event 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:56.240 itself was so lackluster is probably why the robots came out, 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:59.439 Because when they announced the event, they called it we Robot, 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:02.080 which is like nod to Isaac Asimov. And I was 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:04.920 telling everyone internally like oh yeah, like okay, this is 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:07.880 not just about the robotexie. This is clearly also about optimists. 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:10.680 And this is all part of like Musk's whole thing 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:13.959 of positioning Tesla as not a car maker, but as 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:16.719 an AI and robotics company. That's where the future is. 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:19.640 And you know optimists right now, like a couple of 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:22.559 them work in the Fremont factory. They like sort batteries. 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:25.480 I mean eventually they'll probably be put to work digging 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:28.360 tunnels on Mars. He was sort of pitching optimists as 0:11:28.400 --> 0:11:31.080 like your buddy, like that you could hire optimists to 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:34.079 mow your lawn and babysit your kids and be. 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:36.960 Your friend, well babysitster in some ways. 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:41.520 Lauren, You know, my impression here is that we're seeing 0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:44.839 some stuff that just sounds very unserious, right, like kind 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:49.360 of a blown demo or maybe a muff demo over promises. 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:52.000 You see people sort of criticizing this event, saying Elon 0:11:52.080 --> 0:11:54.720 Musk is attracted. On the other hand, of course, SpaceX 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:59.400 had this wonderfully successful demonstration almost at the exact same time. 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:02.120 Do you any sense of what is going on, like 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:04.880 why we're seeing what feels like a bit of a 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:06.520 divergence between the two companies. 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:09.560 I've always said that when it comes to SpaceX, it's 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:14.720 just a type of technology really can't fake, you know, 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:17.320 and I'm not trying to insinuate that there is any 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:20.400 faking going on, but you know, when it comes to 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:24.960 launching rockets, like it's a very visible medium and you 0:12:25.000 --> 0:12:28.079 can see in real time they all have to work 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:33.559 as predicted or else you get some very explodey reactions. 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:36.800 So I think it's just more of kind of a 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:41.800 forcing function that when you launch rockets there really is 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:45.559 no room for error or faking, and so they have 0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:48.400 to get it working correctly. You know, I think that's 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:53.480 kind of been my thesis, But I can't really speak 0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:56.800 to why there's a little more smoke and mirrors. I 0:12:56.800 --> 0:13:00.000 guess at the Tesla side of things than the SpaceX 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:00.800 of things. 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:03.200 He isn't often right on the timeline, but in many 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:04.600 cases he gets there in the end. 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:06.600 Dana final word here. 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:10.000 My big take was like Elon is just bored of 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:12.680 building cars. That just seemed very obvious to me. He 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:16.040 didn't talk about the business case for the ROBOTAXI, he 0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:18.640 didn't talk about the potential for Tesla to ever make 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:22.000 a cheaper car. But Mars and getting to Mars has 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:26.319 been like his overriding mission since he was like a kid, 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:29.000 Like that is like the reason why he founded SpaceX. 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:31.560 And so you're always going to see SpaceX pushing the 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:35.200 envelope and really being like the gold standard for what 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:38.400 is possible and what is achievable. And I remember, you know, 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:41.559 like when SpaceX was first trying to land rockets on 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:43.560 drone ships and they would miss and miss and miss, 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:45.880 and then they finally nailed it, and that was like 0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:48.840 a big thing. And so they're constantly pushing the envelope, 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:52.040 whereas with Tesla, they're way behind Weimo in terms of 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:57.160 actually having like an operational license to run driverless cars 0:13:57.160 --> 0:13:59.640 as a robotaxi service in a city like San Francisco, 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:02.600 and frankly, they're way behind like Boston Dynamics in terms 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:05.760 of robotics. And so it's just wild to see the Tesla, 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:08.360 which is this company that really ushered in the electric 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:13.960 vehicle era, now trying to push robotics as this thing 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:17.000 that they're gonna slay in when they're behind the competition. 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:20.440 Let's end it there, Lauren dana Ed, thank you for 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:20.960 being here. 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:24.000 Thank you very much, Thank you, Take care. 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:31.720 And now over to Kurt Wagner's interview with Kate Conger 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:34.440 and Ryan Mack, two New York Times reporters who recently 0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:37.040 came out with a book called Character Limit, How Elon 0:14:37.160 --> 0:14:41.280 Musk Destroyed Twitter. It details the acquisition of Twitter and 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:43.560 the first year at the company. Kurt, of course, wrote 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:45.440 his own book on the subject, Battle for the Bird, 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:48.480 Jack Dorsey, Elon Musk and the forty four billion dollar 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:52.400 Fight for Twitter Soul. Kurt's book covers the twisty lead 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:56.479 up to the acquisition. Character Limit covers the messy aftermath, 0:14:56.520 --> 0:14:59.680 so it's an ideal pairing. And with that preamble, here's 0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:02.000 Kurt interviewing Kate Conger and Ryan Mack. 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:06.920 Okay, let's welcome to Elon, Inc. The authors of the 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:11.160 recent book Character Limit. Ryan Mack and Kate Conger from 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:11.800 The New York Times. 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:14.280 Welcome guys, Hey, Kurt, thanks so much for having us. 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:15.520 We're really excited to talk to you. 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:17.920 I feel like I know the story as well as 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:20.480 most should, and I learned a ton from what you 0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:23.840 guys put together. I think one of the things I 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:27.280 still sort of don't really know the answer to, even 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:31.280 though we're two years later, is like, did Elon really 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:33.880 want to buy Twitter? Did he sort of fall into 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:37.680 this thing almost unintentionally? Like what drove him? I guess 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:40.680 I'm curious what your best theory is for why he 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:42.680 felt he needed to own this platform. 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:44.760 I think of Elon, I think of someone who gives 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:47.800 himself missions, and he likes to give himself like a 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:51.280 higher reasoning or a higher calling for doing the things 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:55.280 he does, whether that's getting people to Mars or electrifying 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:57.920 cars and helping the environment. You know, there's always something 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:02.680 more beyond the sense of business reason, I guess, and 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:04.560 we could see in his text messages, you know he 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:06.800 was he was annoyed with the Babylon Bee, he was 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:10.080 annoyed with Trump being the platformed, the free speech thing. 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:12.920 But at the end of the day, like Twitter was 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:16.200 his like favorite thing in the world. He spent hours 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:21.400 and hours every day on it. He was It's where 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:24.520 he cultivated his community. He loved talking to people on there, 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:28.000 he loved brawling, he loved trolling. And in the same 0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:30.840 way you know, Steve Balmer might buy the Clippers or 0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:34.280 Jeff Bezos might buy a yacht, you know, Elon must 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:36.960 bought a company, and that is is kind of how 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:38.600 we understand it's his favorite toy. 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:43.920 Yeah, the book is full of anecdotes, full of color, 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:47.560 full of stories of course of Elon. I'm wondering if 0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:49.840 you both have maybe a favorite that you'd want to 0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:52.200 call out, Like, is there something that stands out from 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:52.840 your reporting? 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:53.720 Yeah? 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:57.400 I think for me, I think a lot about Elon's 0:16:57.560 --> 0:17:01.040 own narrative of himself. And you know, he's explain that 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:04.639 in many many interviews and his authorized biography, But he 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:09.240 often talks about himself as someone who was a victim 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:12.560 of abuse from both his father and his classmates when 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:15.000 he was young, and how formative that was for him, 0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:19.000 and how you know, being deprived of that kind of 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:24.719 love and affection and sort of unconstrained kindness when he 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:27.320 was a child drove him to be someone who is 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:30.720 very disciplined and who had to prove his worth right 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:33.320 and wanted other people to prove their worth to him. 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:36.040 I think that's really interesting, and I think it's you know, 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:39.360 really tragic as well, especially now as we see him 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:44.440 kind of playing out these patterns of abuse and hardship 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:47.399 against his own family and the people who are close 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:50.240 to him. And I see that especially in the book. 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:55.959 There's this section where he is planning to have another 0:17:56.080 --> 0:18:00.000 child with Grimes via surrogate. They've picked out a name 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:03.679 for the baby, Valkyrie, and at the same time, he 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:08.000 is in secret from Grimes having children with one of 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:12.760 his employees at Neuralink, chevon Zillas, and those children Chavon's 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:16.000 children are born prior to the baby with Grimes. He 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:19.520 names one of those children Valkyrie and basically steals the 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:22.280 name from his child with Grimes and applies it to 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:25.440 this other child. You know, and then Grimes finds out 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:28.719 obviously is very heartbroken, writes a whole song about the 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:31.840 experience and talks about sort of a mother's pain and 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:34.960 being robbed of the name that she's chosen for her daughter. 0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:40.800 But it really I think portrays Elon as someone who 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:44.720 views even the people who are closest to him as interchangeable. 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:48.640 Their names can be interchanged, their bodies can be interchanged, 0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:54.080 their skills can be interchanged, and he doesn't hold back 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:57.760 from doing harm because of the hurt it might cause 0:18:57.840 --> 0:18:58.560 to other people. 0:18:59.000 --> 0:18:59.240 Wow. 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:04.600 Yeah, that is a pretty crazy story there, Ryan. Do 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:07.560 you have one that comes to mind for me? 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:09.920 The one thing that stands out that we've reported on 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:13.160 is on Twitter Blue launch day. You know, he's got 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:17.159 this plan to sell the badges. It's going to reinvigorate 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:18.800 the company, is going to make so much money off 0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:21.720 the sale of these badges. And he goes into the 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:24.840 meeting room and he's talking with the product folks and 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:27.800 the engineers in the room, and they really have a 0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:30.440 lot of concerns. This is going to upend what people 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:34.320 understand about verification. They're concerned about what happens in emergency 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:37.240 situations when let's say, I don't know, if some fire 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:41.840 department announces there's an oncoming hurricane or tornado warning or 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:45.480 something like that, what does that mean? And he basically 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:47.960 says to them in a quote like you know, we're 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:49.879 going to be shooting from the hip in real time, 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:53.080 and everyone just has their hands on their heads and 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:55.320 they're like, people could really get hurt so much to 0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:58.399 the point where an engineer who's calling in says like, 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:01.080 at what point do we shut off this? Like when 0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:04.800 do we know that we've hit a real problem? And 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:08.240 Elon responds to him when someone dies or someone gets 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:10.359 really hurt, that's when we're going to, you know, stop 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:13.440 what we're doing. And I was just like, that's that's 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:17.399 not a responsible way to launch a product. It's extremely dangerous. 0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:21.439 Both of your anecdotes here like have similar themes, right, 0:20:21.520 --> 0:20:24.000 which is that to your point, he's not really taking 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:26.720 other people into account. How does he justify that or 0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:28.800 do you feel like you know how he justifies that? 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:33.560 Yeah, I think Elon's thought process is sort of one 0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:35.919 that's common in Silicon Valley, but he takes it to 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:39.679 a new extreme. But it's this idea of long termism 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:43.199 where whatever harm I might do in the present is 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:46.840 worth it if I've done something that fifty one hundred 0:20:46.920 --> 0:20:49.440 years down the road is going to have an immense 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:52.840 impact for all of humanity. And I think Elon really 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:55.520 thinks that way, and a lot of other folks in 0:20:55.640 --> 0:20:57.840 Silicon Valley do as well. You know, we've seen this 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:02.159 a lot with self driving and with the gig economy, 0:21:02.800 --> 0:21:06.600 where there are these justifications of like, it's okay if 0:21:07.200 --> 0:21:09.280 you know a child gets run over by a self 0:21:09.359 --> 0:21:13.960 driving car or there's some kind of mishap that happens 0:21:14.240 --> 0:21:18.879 in a ride hail, because fifty one hundred years down 0:21:18.960 --> 0:21:22.359 the road, we will have saved far more lives through 0:21:22.720 --> 0:21:26.119 preventing drunk driving or preventing human error in cars. 0:21:26.240 --> 0:21:29.879 I mean, it's very clear how I think probably you 0:21:30.160 --> 0:21:34.320 both feel about how the Twitter experiment has gone. Right. 0:21:34.359 --> 0:21:37.679 The subtitle of your book is how Elon Musk destroyed Twitter. 0:21:38.040 --> 0:21:40.040 There have been many missteps, I think we could probably 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:42.440 all agree in the past two years. Is there one 0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:46.159 that's maybe been the biggest problem for you know, the 0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:49.320 biggest mistake that he's made. Ryan, you mentioned Blue Verify 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:52.080 That to me actually may maybe top of my list 0:21:52.119 --> 0:21:55.800 in terms of just like eroding value and trust in 0:21:55.840 --> 0:21:56.400