1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:09,960 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 2: Well, Elon Musk is now the richest person on the planet. 3 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:19,159 Speaker 3: More than half the satellites in space are owned and 4 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 3: controlled by one man. 5 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 2: Well, he's a legitimate super genius. I mean legitimate. 6 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 4: He says he's always voted for Democrats, but this year 7 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 4: it will be different. 8 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: He'll vote Republican. 9 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 4: There is a reason the US government is so reliant 10 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 4: on him. 11 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 3: Alon Musk is a scam artist and he's done nothing. 12 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:39,560 Speaker 3: Anything he does, he's fascinating people. 13 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 2: Welcome to Elon, Inc, Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. 14 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 2: It's Tuesday, October fifteenth, and I'm your host, Max Chafkin. 15 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 2: This week, in the wake of an more or less 16 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 2: successful or not super successful Robotaxi launch, we're going to 17 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 2: be talking about a mini flood of Elon news stories. 18 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 2: We had a big win for SpaceX, as well as 19 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 2: some legal trouble. There's the question of whether those really 20 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 2: cool Optimist robots at the event were just people using 21 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 2: remote controls. Then we'll turn the mic over to tech 22 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 2: reporter and author Kurt Wagner, who had a great talk 23 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 2: with Ryan Mack and Kate Conger about their new book 24 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 2: on Twitter character limit. Okay, to break down the news, 25 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 2: we have a real who's who of Elon reporters. Lauren 26 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 2: Grush is joining us from Austin. She covers SpaceX for Bloomberg. Hey, Lauren, Hey, guys. 27 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:40,320 Speaker 2: Ed Ludlow, tech reporter, host of Bloomberg Technology is coming 28 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 2: live to us from San Francisco. Ed, how you doing? 29 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 5: Very good? 30 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 2: Hello, And of course, our old friend and Bloomberg's official 31 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 2: Elon Musk reporter Dana Hall beaming in from the Bay Area. Hello, Dana, 32 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 2: Hi Max. All right, Lauren, let's start with you. SpaceX 33 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 2: did something pretty impressive this week. It caught one of 34 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 2: it's big starship Rockets, and what the script says, and 35 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 2: I'm not making this up with giant chopsticks, and I'm 36 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 2: hoping you can explain what that means and what exactly happened. 37 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 4: Yeah. 38 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 6: I feel like it takes a lot to surprise me 39 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 6: at this point, just because I cover space so regularly, 40 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 6: but this was one of those feats where I was 41 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 6: actually very taken aback. It was a pretty stunning achievement. 42 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 6: So if for anyone who follows SpaceX just casually, you 43 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 6: probably know that they consistently land their Falcon nine rockets 44 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 6: after launch, where they come back, they reignite their engines 45 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 6: and then they land on landing legs. But with this 46 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 6: it was a whole new type of recovery for their 47 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 6: Starship rocket. So Starship is their vehicle that they hope 48 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 6: to send to the Moon in Mars. It's quite massive, 49 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 6: the most powerful, the largest rocket ever built, and essentially 50 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 6: the booster portion which propels Starship to space, came back 51 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 6: to Earth and rather than land on landing legs, it 52 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 6: ignited its engines to slow itself down, and then two 53 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 6: giant arms attached to the launch tower that it launched 54 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 6: from protruded outward and caught the booster as it came 55 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 6: down with these grid fins that are protruding from the booster. 56 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 6: So you kind of have to watch the video to 57 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 6: really get the full effect. I don't think I can 58 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 6: describe it as well as the video shows it, but 59 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 6: it was a pretty masterful feat. And I'll be honest, 60 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 6: you know, I think there are a lot of skeptics, 61 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,959 Speaker 6: including myself, that were a little unsure about whether or 62 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 6: not they could pull this off. But I watched it 63 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 6: with my own two eyes. It was pretty incredible. 64 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: And I'm sorry, aren't these things called something like Mecca? 65 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: Mecca was Mechazilla? 66 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 6: Yes, you know, SpaceX always loves to have a good 67 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 6: funny name for the things that they built. So the 68 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 6: Mechzilla chopsticks are the nicknames for these two arms that 69 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 6: stick out of the launch tower. 70 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. Elon Musk course has away with nicknames and names 71 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 2: and also very good at these kind of you know, 72 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 2: show stopping demonstrations. But Lauren, like, why is this impressive 73 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 2: and like, what does it tell us about SpaceX's progress 74 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 2: with this very large rocket. 75 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 6: Well, I think for me it was impressive just because 76 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 6: the booster, which is called super heavy, is just so 77 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 6: massive and you know, logically just doesn't make sense in 78 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 6: my brain. The fins that stick out of it can 79 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 6: are enough to hold up this massive booster in mid 80 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 6: air basically. But really, the more impressive side of it 81 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 6: is that Starship has been advertised as being fully reusable. 82 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 6: So the Falcon nine, you know, it gets a lot 83 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:45,280 Speaker 6: of attention for being reusable, but it's only partially reusable. 84 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 6: The upper portion of it actually doesn't survive or come 85 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 6: back to Earth. And so this is a key step 86 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 6: because you know, if Starship is going to be fully reasonable, 87 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 6: you have to save both parts that part of the 88 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 6: test flight. Starship did also survive its re entry through 89 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 6: Earth's atmosphere, at least mostly. I did see some burn 90 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 6: through of you know, the fins, but it did make 91 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 6: it back more or less intact. 92 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 2: All right, ed put this in a context of SpaceX 93 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 2: in general. A lot is happening with SpaceX. You know, 94 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 2: a lot of progress with Starlink. I mean, what kind 95 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 2: of year has this company had are they having right now? 96 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 3: So always challenging because of Elon Musk, because they are 97 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 3: intensely followed by regulators and state officials and federal officials. 98 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 3: But the easiest thing for anyone who wants to follow SpaceX, 99 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 3: or has to follow SpaceX to do is take at 100 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 3: face value the bigger picture goal. I'm never going to 101 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 3: be able to put rocket science as poetically to you 102 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 3: as Lauren Grush does, But if you look at each 103 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 3: mission Starship just gone and say, okay, the goal was 104 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 3: to catch the booster, and the secondary goal was to 105 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 3: have Starship fall through Earth's atmosphere and not disintegrate, you 106 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 3: have to accept that the longer term and bigger picture 107 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 3: goal is to get mankind or humankind to being an 108 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 3: InterPlaNet tree species and get humankind to Mars. And it's 109 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:15,919 Speaker 3: the kind of thing where your journalist and you're sitting 110 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 3: with your editors, your dear friend Donah Hole or you know, 111 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 3: the head of Bloomberg Television, and you sit in front 112 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 3: of them and you say that and they just cannot 113 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 3: accept it. But that's true. 114 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 2: Okay, let's move from deep space and Mars down to Earth. 115 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 7: Dana. 116 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 2: There's a bit of a fight going on right now 117 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 2: between Elon Musk and some local officials in California over 118 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 2: some of these launches, over the sort of plans for 119 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 2: an expansion of these launches from I believe the Vanderberg 120 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:47,720 Speaker 2: Air Force Base, which is in California. What's going on 121 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 2: with this? 122 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, So I feel like a bit much has been 123 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 1: made about this. The California Coastal Commission, which oversees California's 124 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: very beloved and pristine coast like it's worried about the 125 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,840 Speaker 1: number of launches. But SpaceX, to be clear, they want 126 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 1: to launch a lot, and they've got multiple launch pads. 127 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 1: They've got Bokachika, they've got Vandenburg and California they've got 128 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: the launch pad in Florida, and so like last week, 129 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: the Coastal Commission said that they were like worried about 130 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: giving SpaceX more launches because of like issues with labor rights. 131 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: This is like a non binding rebuttal like it doesn't 132 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: actually change anything, but Elon Musk is very upset about it. 133 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: He said that SpaceX is going to sue the Coastal 134 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: Commission today apparently we haven't seen an actual lawsuit, but 135 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,679 Speaker 1: it sort of plays into the larger narrative that Elan 136 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: has been pushing, which is that he is a victim 137 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: of law fair and that these pesky regulators, whether at 138 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: the federal government or in California, are like constantly kind 139 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: of trying to take him down, and that like we'll 140 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: never get to Mars without with all this government bureaucracy. 141 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: And so it kind of like plays into this narrative 142 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:56,119 Speaker 1: that he has really been on for quite some time. 143 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: You know, ultimately, I'll be curious to see if SpaceX 144 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: actually sues and on what grand. 145 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 2: All right, let's move to robots. Ed you wrote a 146 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 2: story for Bloomberg, I believe, yesterday about these wonderful looking, 147 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 2: these very impressive optimist robots. People at this Tesla event 148 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 2: on Thursday could not believe it. The robots had different voices, 149 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 2: they were cracking jokes, even spoke Spanish. But it appears, 150 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 2: and according to your reporting, that there was a catch. 151 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. 152 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 3: I did not go to the event. I tried very 153 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 3: hard to, but I was not invited. Many people at 154 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 3: the event could not believe that the Optimius robots were real, 155 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 3: that they were really doing this autonomously. Some people did 156 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 3: suspect that they might have had some help, and some 157 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 3: people did ask the robot if it was having some help, 158 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 3: and there was some confusing posts on X So I said, 159 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 3: we have to confirm this, so I phoned everyone that 160 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:58,319 Speaker 3: I know, and what we reported is that, yeah, absolutely, 161 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 3: these Optimist spots were helly operated in the interactions they 162 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 3: had with the guests at the event. 163 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 2: And teller operated means remote control. 164 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 3: Right exactly, there were remotely controlled. So there were Tesla's 165 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 3: staff in a warehouse essentially not off site, but away 166 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 3: from the festivities, controlling their movement and I believe their 167 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:22,559 Speaker 3: voice as well, though that is a point of contention. Specifically, 168 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 3: we're talking about things like pouring drinks, and we're talking 169 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 3: about games of rock, paper, scissors, and high fives. However, 170 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 3: there were parts of the Optimus robot's function on the ground, 171 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 3: which I'm told by sources was autonomous, but it's limited 172 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 3: to walking around, which is still a very impressive feat, 173 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 3: although there are other robotics companies that have achieved that historically. 174 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:44,959 Speaker 3: And dancing, so, for example, there are clips out there 175 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 3: where members of the audience are like doing dances and 176 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 3: the Optimus bot mimics the dance, and my understanding from 177 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 3: sources is yes, that is something the Optimist did of 178 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 3: its own artificially intelligent volition. There's one important point that 179 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 3: I added to my reporting late late in the evening 180 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 3: after the story was published, which is this was a 181 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 3: classic Elon Musk thing. Basically, three weeks ago before the event, 182 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 3: he decided he wanted to have the robots at the event, 183 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 3: and so he told the team that's in charge of Optimus, 184 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 3: make this happen, and they were all like, we cannot 185 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 3: make this happen. There isn't enough time. The Optimist robot 186 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 3: isn't ready, and so teleoperation or remote control was the 187 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 3: only option. 188 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:29,199 Speaker 2: My favorite thing about this story is imagining there were 189 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 2: like fifty Optimist robots or something, and imagining fifty individual 190 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:37,079 Speaker 2: Tesla employees in little phone booths somewhere on that soundstage, 191 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 2: you know, having to play rock paper scissors with all 192 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 2: these like car influencers. Dan, what are we even talking 193 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 2: about here? What is opt I thought this was a 194 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 2: cyber cab event. Why are we even talking about this? 195 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: Well, I think the fact that the cyber cab event 196 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: itself was so lackluster is probably why the robots came out, 197 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,439 Speaker 1: Because when they announced the event, they called it we Robot, 198 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: which is like nod to Isaac Asimov. And I was 199 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: telling everyone internally like oh yeah, like okay, this is 200 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: not just about the robotexie. This is clearly also about optimists. 201 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 1: And this is all part of like Musk's whole thing 202 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,959 Speaker 1: of positioning Tesla as not a car maker, but as 203 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,719 Speaker 1: an AI and robotics company. That's where the future is. 204 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: And you know optimists right now, like a couple of 205 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,559 Speaker 1: them work in the Fremont factory. They like sort batteries. 206 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: I mean eventually they'll probably be put to work digging 207 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: tunnels on Mars. He was sort of pitching optimists as 208 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 1: like your buddy, like that you could hire optimists to 209 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,079 Speaker 1: mow your lawn and babysit your kids and be. 210 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 3: Your friend, well babysitster in some ways. 211 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 2: Lauren, You know, my impression here is that we're seeing 212 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,839 Speaker 2: some stuff that just sounds very unserious, right, like kind 213 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 2: of a blown demo or maybe a muff demo over promises. 214 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 2: You see people sort of criticizing this event, saying Elon 215 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 2: Musk is attracted. On the other hand, of course, SpaceX 216 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 2: had this wonderfully successful demonstration almost at the exact same time. 217 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 2: Do you any sense of what is going on, like 218 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 2: why we're seeing what feels like a bit of a 219 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 2: divergence between the two companies. 220 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 6: I've always said that when it comes to SpaceX, it's 221 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 6: just a type of technology really can't fake, you know, 222 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 6: and I'm not trying to insinuate that there is any 223 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 6: faking going on, but you know, when it comes to 224 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 6: launching rockets, like it's a very visible medium and you 225 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,079 Speaker 6: can see in real time they all have to work 226 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:33,559 Speaker 6: as predicted or else you get some very explodey reactions. 227 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 6: So I think it's just more of kind of a 228 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 6: forcing function that when you launch rockets there really is 229 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:45,559 Speaker 6: no room for error or faking, and so they have 230 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 6: to get it working correctly. You know, I think that's 231 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 6: kind of been my thesis, But I can't really speak 232 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 6: to why there's a little more smoke and mirrors. I 233 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 6: guess at the Tesla side of things than the SpaceX 234 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 6: of things. 235 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 3: He isn't often right on the timeline, but in many 236 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 3: cases he gets there in the end. 237 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 2: Dana final word here. 238 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: My big take was like Elon is just bored of 239 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,680 Speaker 1: building cars. That just seemed very obvious to me. He 240 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: didn't talk about the business case for the ROBOTAXI, he 241 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: didn't talk about the potential for Tesla to ever make 242 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: a cheaper car. But Mars and getting to Mars has 243 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:26,319 Speaker 1: been like his overriding mission since he was like a kid, 244 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: Like that is like the reason why he founded SpaceX. 245 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 1: And so you're always going to see SpaceX pushing the 246 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 1: envelope and really being like the gold standard for what 247 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 1: is possible and what is achievable. And I remember, you know, 248 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,559 Speaker 1: like when SpaceX was first trying to land rockets on 249 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 1: drone ships and they would miss and miss and miss, 250 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 1: and then they finally nailed it, and that was like 251 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 1: a big thing. And so they're constantly pushing the envelope, 252 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: whereas with Tesla, they're way behind Weimo in terms of 253 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: actually having like an operational license to run driverless cars 254 00:13:57,160 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: as a robotaxi service in a city like San Francisco, 255 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 1: and frankly, they're way behind like Boston Dynamics in terms 256 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: of robotics. And so it's just wild to see the Tesla, 257 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: which is this company that really ushered in the electric 258 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 1: vehicle era, now trying to push robotics as this thing 259 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: that they're gonna slay in when they're behind the competition. 260 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 2: Let's end it there, Lauren dana Ed, thank you for 261 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 2: being here. 262 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Thank you, Take care. 263 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 2: And now over to Kurt Wagner's interview with Kate Conger 264 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 2: and Ryan Mack, two New York Times reporters who recently 265 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 2: came out with a book called Character Limit, How Elon 266 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 2: Musk Destroyed Twitter. It details the acquisition of Twitter and 267 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 2: the first year at the company. Kurt, of course, wrote 268 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 2: his own book on the subject, Battle for the Bird, 269 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 2: Jack Dorsey, Elon Musk and the forty four billion dollar 270 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 2: Fight for Twitter Soul. Kurt's book covers the twisty lead 271 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,479 Speaker 2: up to the acquisition. Character Limit covers the messy aftermath, 272 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 2: so it's an ideal pairing. And with that preamble, here's 273 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 2: Kurt interviewing Kate Conger and Ryan Mack. 274 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 4: Okay, let's welcome to Elon, Inc. The authors of the 275 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 4: recent book Character Limit. Ryan Mack and Kate Conger from 276 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 4: The New York Times. 277 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 5: Welcome guys, Hey, Kurt, thanks so much for having us. 278 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 7: We're really excited to talk to you. 279 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 4: I feel like I know the story as well as 280 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 4: most should, and I learned a ton from what you 281 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 4: guys put together. I think one of the things I 282 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 4: still sort of don't really know the answer to, even 283 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 4: though we're two years later, is like, did Elon really 284 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 4: want to buy Twitter? Did he sort of fall into 285 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 4: this thing almost unintentionally? Like what drove him? I guess 286 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 4: I'm curious what your best theory is for why he 287 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 4: felt he needed to own this platform. 288 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 5: I think of Elon, I think of someone who gives 289 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 5: himself missions, and he likes to give himself like a 290 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 5: higher reasoning or a higher calling for doing the things 291 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 5: he does, whether that's getting people to Mars or electrifying 292 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 5: cars and helping the environment. You know, there's always something 293 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 5: more beyond the sense of business reason, I guess, and 294 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 5: we could see in his text messages, you know he 295 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 5: was he was annoyed with the Babylon Bee, he was 296 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 5: annoyed with Trump being the platformed, the free speech thing. 297 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 5: But at the end of the day, like Twitter was 298 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 5: his like favorite thing in the world. He spent hours 299 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 5: and hours every day on it. He was It's where 300 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 5: he cultivated his community. He loved talking to people on there, 301 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 5: he loved brawling, he loved trolling. And in the same 302 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 5: way you know, Steve Balmer might buy the Clippers or 303 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 5: Jeff Bezos might buy a yacht, you know, Elon must 304 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 5: bought a company, and that is is kind of how 305 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 5: we understand it's his favorite toy. 306 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, the book is full of anecdotes, full of color, 307 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 4: full of stories of course of Elon. I'm wondering if 308 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 4: you both have maybe a favorite that you'd want to 309 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 4: call out, Like, is there something that stands out from 310 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 4: your reporting? 311 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: Yeah? 312 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 7: I think for me, I think a lot about Elon's 313 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 7: own narrative of himself. And you know, he's explain that 314 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 7: in many many interviews and his authorized biography, But he 315 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 7: often talks about himself as someone who was a victim 316 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 7: of abuse from both his father and his classmates when 317 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 7: he was young, and how formative that was for him, 318 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 7: and how you know, being deprived of that kind of 319 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:24,719 Speaker 7: love and affection and sort of unconstrained kindness when he 320 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 7: was a child drove him to be someone who is 321 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 7: very disciplined and who had to prove his worth right 322 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 7: and wanted other people to prove their worth to him. 323 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 7: I think that's really interesting, and I think it's you know, 324 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,360 Speaker 7: really tragic as well, especially now as we see him 325 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 7: kind of playing out these patterns of abuse and hardship 326 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 7: against his own family and the people who are close 327 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 7: to him. And I see that especially in the book. 328 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:55,959 Speaker 7: There's this section where he is planning to have another 329 00:17:56,080 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 7: child with Grimes via surrogate. They've picked out a name 330 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,679 Speaker 7: for the baby, Valkyrie, and at the same time, he 331 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 7: is in secret from Grimes having children with one of 332 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 7: his employees at Neuralink, chevon Zillas, and those children Chavon's 333 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 7: children are born prior to the baby with Grimes. He 334 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 7: names one of those children Valkyrie and basically steals the 335 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 7: name from his child with Grimes and applies it to 336 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 7: this other child. You know, and then Grimes finds out 337 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,719 Speaker 7: obviously is very heartbroken, writes a whole song about the 338 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 7: experience and talks about sort of a mother's pain and 339 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 7: being robbed of the name that she's chosen for her daughter. 340 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 7: But it really I think portrays Elon as someone who 341 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 7: views even the people who are closest to him as interchangeable. 342 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,640 Speaker 7: Their names can be interchanged, their bodies can be interchanged, 343 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 7: their skills can be interchanged, and he doesn't hold back 344 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 7: from doing harm because of the hurt it might cause 345 00:18:57,840 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 7: to other people. 346 00:18:59,000 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 2: Wow. 347 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, that is a pretty crazy story there, Ryan. Do 348 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 4: you have one that comes to mind for me? 349 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 5: The one thing that stands out that we've reported on 350 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,160 Speaker 5: is on Twitter Blue launch day. You know, he's got 351 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 5: this plan to sell the badges. It's going to reinvigorate 352 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 5: the company, is going to make so much money off 353 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 5: the sale of these badges. And he goes into the 354 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 5: meeting room and he's talking with the product folks and 355 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 5: the engineers in the room, and they really have a 356 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 5: lot of concerns. This is going to upend what people 357 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 5: understand about verification. They're concerned about what happens in emergency 358 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 5: situations when let's say, I don't know, if some fire 359 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 5: department announces there's an oncoming hurricane or tornado warning or 360 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 5: something like that, what does that mean? And he basically 361 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 5: says to them in a quote like you know, we're 362 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 5: going to be shooting from the hip in real time, 363 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 5: and everyone just has their hands on their heads and 364 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 5: they're like, people could really get hurt so much to 365 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 5: the point where an engineer who's calling in says like, 366 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 5: at what point do we shut off this? Like when 367 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 5: do we know that we've hit a real problem? And 368 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 5: Elon responds to him when someone dies or someone gets 369 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 5: really hurt, that's when we're going to, you know, stop 370 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,440 Speaker 5: what we're doing. And I was just like, that's that's 371 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 5: not a responsible way to launch a product. It's extremely dangerous. 372 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:21,439 Speaker 4: Both of your anecdotes here like have similar themes, right, 373 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 4: which is that to your point, he's not really taking 374 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 4: other people into account. How does he justify that or 375 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 4: do you feel like you know how he justifies that? 376 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 7: Yeah, I think Elon's thought process is sort of one 377 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:35,919 Speaker 7: that's common in Silicon Valley, but he takes it to 378 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 7: a new extreme. But it's this idea of long termism 379 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:43,199 Speaker 7: where whatever harm I might do in the present is 380 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 7: worth it if I've done something that fifty one hundred 381 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 7: years down the road is going to have an immense 382 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 7: impact for all of humanity. And I think Elon really 383 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 7: thinks that way, and a lot of other folks in 384 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 7: Silicon Valley do as well. You know, we've seen this 385 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:02,159 Speaker 7: a lot with self driving and with the gig economy, 386 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 7: where there are these justifications of like, it's okay if 387 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 7: you know a child gets run over by a self 388 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 7: driving car or there's some kind of mishap that happens 389 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 7: in a ride hail, because fifty one hundred years down 390 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 7: the road, we will have saved far more lives through 391 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 7: preventing drunk driving or preventing human error in cars. 392 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 4: I mean, it's very clear how I think probably you 393 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 4: both feel about how the Twitter experiment has gone. Right. 394 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,679 Speaker 4: The subtitle of your book is how Elon Musk destroyed Twitter. 395 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 4: There have been many missteps, I think we could probably 396 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 4: all agree in the past two years. Is there one 397 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:46,159 Speaker 4: that's maybe been the biggest problem for you know, the 398 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 4: biggest mistake that he's made. Ryan, you mentioned Blue Verify 399 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 4: That to me actually may maybe top of my list 400 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 4: in terms of just like eroding value and trust in 401 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 4: this company. 402 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 5: For me, it would be the fundamental Hubris. He came 403 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 5: in with the confidence and the lack of understanding of advertising. 404 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 5: You know, he bought an advertising social you know social 405 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 5: network based on advertising that where it draws ninety percent 406 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 5: of its business from and to alienate advertisers almost from 407 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 5: day one. I think on day one he had that 408 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,159 Speaker 5: like very conciliatory, like he wrote a very good note 409 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 5: and it was like, you know, my ownership is not 410 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 5: going to drive you away. I'm not going to have 411 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 5: more misinformation. I'm not going to have more hate. And 412 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:32,679 Speaker 5: from that day on, it's gone downhill and he's scared 413 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 5: people and advertisers away to the point where he is 414 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 5: suing advertising groups for not advertising on X And like 415 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 5: that is I think like an original sin for me 416 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 5: if I'm analyzing the deal. 417 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, it sounds so sort of obvious or basic, but 418 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 4: like the lack of understanding of the main core business 419 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 4: I think has struck a lot of people as a 420 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,120 Speaker 4: surprise when he came in. Kate, was there something for you? 421 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 7: Yeah? You know, I think if I try to get 422 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,640 Speaker 7: Elon pilled for a second and really believe in him 423 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 7: as an entrepreneur. You know, what I see is the 424 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 7: technical prowess, right, the things that he's been able to 425 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 7: do with Tesla and SpaceX, and I see a lack 426 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 7: of innovation with X, and I think that that is 427 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,159 Speaker 7: something that a lot of people expected from him. You know, 428 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 7: search is often broken. So much of my reporting work 429 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 7: is deep diving back into historic tweets, and that's very 430 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:33,919 Speaker 7: hard to do on the platform. It often does not work. 431 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,440 Speaker 7: The technology for spaces is now quite degraded, and when 432 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:39,919 Speaker 7: he tried to host former President Trump for a conversation, 433 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 7: they couldn't get it going for forty five minutes. We've 434 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 7: heard from him about how he wants to include payments, 435 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 7: how he wants to include video, how he wants to 436 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 7: kind of cannibalize audience from TikTok. None of those things 437 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 7: are happening, and so I think if you look at 438 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:58,880 Speaker 7: it from a pro Elon perspective, the innovation is quite disappointing. 439 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 4: How much of this do you pin on sort of 440 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 4: his network of advisors, right, because I think one of 441 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,719 Speaker 4: the great parts about your reporting in the book is 442 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 4: just how often he's listening to people who may not 443 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 4: be experts in the advice that they're giving and in 444 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 4: some cases reacting to anonymous Twitter users, right like advice 445 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 4: or feedback from you know, random account with four thousand followers. 446 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,879 Speaker 7: I think that is a factor. But ultimately, you know, 447 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 7: he is the decision maker on things. He loves to 448 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,439 Speaker 7: be in the weeds and to be very hands on 449 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:43,360 Speaker 7: with product and from you know, the most random details 450 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:47,120 Speaker 7: we heard from people who are talking to him about 451 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 7: the exact pixel placement of something on the screen, or 452 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,120 Speaker 7: the fact that he didn't want the copy that went 453 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 7: to the app store to have a comma in it. 454 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 2: You know. 455 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 7: When we were writing the book, there is a day 456 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 7: Ryan came over to me and he'd been interrupting me 457 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 7: all day and I was like, leave me alone. He's like, 458 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 7: you have to look at this. And it was because 459 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 7: Elon had seen a tweet from a Nicki minaj Stan 460 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 7: account that was complaining about the look of the official 461 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 7: badges that he was planning to give to governments and 462 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 7: to fire departments, emergency services, transit authorities, things like that. 463 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:24,959 Speaker 7: They said it looked bad, and he brought the tweet 464 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 7: to people at Twitter and like, we have to take 465 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 7: this down because this Nicki Minaj fan account doesn't like 466 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 7: it and they think it looks dumb. 467 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 4: You know, it's a bad And I was like, I 468 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 4: couldn't believe it was crazy the amount of influence that 469 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 4: some random Twitter user can have on this company. 470 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,360 Speaker 5: It's so strange because we think of Elon as kind 471 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 5: of the alpha, like the decision maker. And in the 472 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 5: book there's plenty of examples where he has this small 473 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 5: circle of advisors. I think of people like David Sachs 474 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 5: or Jason Kalakanis where he'll listen to them despite their 475 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 5: lack of expertise, and that happened over and over again 476 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 5: throughout the book, and I don't know it just it 477 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,640 Speaker 5: kind of shows that there was very little planning in this, 478 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 5: in this takeover, and he was just kind of soliciting 479 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 5: advice from everywhere, including Twitter itself. 480 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, and especially now what we see X 481 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,880 Speaker 4: has become right. I think I wrote a newsletter right 482 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 4: after the debate a few weeks ago, and I think 483 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 4: I call it sort of just an extension. It's like 484 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,679 Speaker 4: truth social but X right, it's whatever two point zero 485 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 4: or something. It really does feel at times like it 486 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 4: is so politically charged. Politically polarizing. Do you both feel like, 487 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 4: is are we ever going to go back to maybe 488 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 4: a world in which politics is like a secondary or 489 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 4: even further down priority for X. Like where do you 490 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 4: see this moving forward from a content perspective. 491 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 7: I mean, I think the comparison to truth Social is apt. 492 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,399 Speaker 7: You know, truth Social is a platform that's all about 493 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 7: one man, and X is increasingly a platform that's all 494 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 7: about a different man. It's so funny because I think 495 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,159 Speaker 7: the wisdom of Twitter for a long time was you 496 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 7: never want to be the main character on Twitter. But 497 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 7: Elon does want to be the main character on X 498 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,960 Speaker 7: and he often successfully is that. So he really has 499 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 7: made the platform about himself and I don't see his 500 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,200 Speaker 7: politics taking a back seat at this point. He's really 501 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 7: thrown himself all into this political crusade. 502 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 5: Yeah, I would agree. I mean, he just passed two 503 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 5: hundred million followers and I just opened up the for 504 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 5: you page just to see what it looked like. And 505 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,639 Speaker 5: he's within the first five tweets or posts every time, 506 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,880 Speaker 5: like he is the one that drives whatever people are 507 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:41,160 Speaker 5: talking about on the platform. 508 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 7: Well, I would say too, it's not just like a 509 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 7: ViBe's approach you know, researchers have documented that the platform 510 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 7: has shifted significantly to the right, not necessarily because they're 511 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,120 Speaker 7: more right wing users joining, but because more left wing 512 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 7: users are leaving, you know, And we've also seen really 513 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 7: significant growth in reach for accounts that he's brought back. 514 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 7: So like the Alex jones Is of the world that 515 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 7: he's reinstated on the platform have been able to grow 516 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 7: their presence really significantly and you know, grow their voice, 517 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 7: grow their agenda that they're pushing, and so that has 518 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 7: really changed the tenor of the platform. It's not just 519 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 7: like I'm opening up my feed and this is what 520 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 7: I'm seeing based on who I follow, but it is 521 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 7: sort of like a network. 522 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, all right, listen on an Elon question, I'm curious 523 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:34,159 Speaker 4: how you're for both of you, how your feelings about 524 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 4: Elon changed through the reporting of your book. Right, I'm 525 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 4: sure you both followed him closely enough to maybe come 526 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 4: in with at least some sense of who he was 527 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 4: and the type of leader he is, the type of 528 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 4: technologisty is, et cetera. What I imagine all the interviews 529 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 4: and the research and the things that went into writing 530 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 4: the book probably changed that perspective. Over time, and I'm 531 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 4: curious where how it changed it and where you feel 532 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 4: sort of about Elon Musk. 533 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 7: I think it disillusioned me a little bit on the 534 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 7: idea that he has this sort of grand plan. I 535 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 7: think because you know, I didn't cover him as closely 536 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 7: as Ryan did prior to the takeover. I was just 537 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 7: covering Twitter, and he kind of came into that space. 538 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 7: But you know, I think because there's this big mythos 539 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 7: around him that he's created of being this self made 540 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 7: businessman with sort of all these ingenious ideas, I was 541 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,479 Speaker 7: interested in seeing some of that come to fruition. And 542 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 7: it was interesting to me and I think surprising to 543 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 7: me to realize how little of a plan he had 544 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 7: for any of these things. I mean, we talked earlier 545 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 7: about his decision to make the acquisition, to make the offer, 546 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 7: and how that was not thought through. His decision to 547 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 7: launch Twitter Blue and paid verification was not thought through. 548 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 7: You know. The layoffs when he took over the company 549 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 7: were absolute mayhem and a chaos, and it was just 550 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 7: people like scrambling to assemble lists in Google docs, and 551 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 7: people begging to be put on the layoff list and 552 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 7: begging to be taken off and people trying to, you know, 553 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 7: save coworkers who were in the States on a visa 554 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 7: and needed to continue their employment. Like there was no 555 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 7: rhyme or reason to any of that. And I think 556 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 7: to see that over and over again really was revealing 557 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 7: of how little strategy comes with some of these decisions. 558 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 4: Ryan went about you for me. 559 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 5: I've been covering him since about twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, 560 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 5: and we all remember twenty eighteen when he does the 561 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 5: funding Secured tweet and the pedal Guy tweet and ends 562 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 5: up being sued by the SEC. He ends up being 563 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 5: sued by the cave rescuer he called the pedophile, and 564 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 5: he comes out of both things almost scott free. The 565 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 5: SEC find him personally twenty million dollars. He's found not 566 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 5: liable for damages in the pedro Guy trial in twenty nineteen, 567 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 5: and I think he comes out of that just with 568 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 5: this realization that he's untouched. You know that there is 569 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 5: no accountability, There's no way of holding someone that rich accountable, 570 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 5: Like what is a twenty million dollar fine to someone 571 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 5: who's worth a quarter of a trillion dollars now? And 572 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,959 Speaker 5: we spent two years reporting this book and this, you know, 573 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 5: reputation destroying incident with the buying of this company, the 574 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 5: destruction of its value. It's done nothing to him, you know, 575 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 5: It's it's he's just as rich. He has a new 576 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 5: AI company that he's built off the corpse of this, 577 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 5: this social network that is that is now valued at 578 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 5: twenty eight billion dollars. He has more government regulators looking 579 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 5: at him than ever, but there's nothing that will hold 580 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 5: him accountable. And I think that realization has only grown 581 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 5: through the years, and as we've reported this book, as 582 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 5: we've reported more on him, to the point where he 583 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 5: is he's just a character that is just so unique, 584 00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 5: Like there is no one else like him, no one 585 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 5: else richer than him, and no one else that has 586 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 5: as much power as him like he is. He's untouchable. 587 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 5: I don't know what that means for us the society, 588 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 5: but you know, it's just that's what it is. 589 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, a little bit of a bleak way to end, 590 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 4: but it was a great conversation. The book is called 591 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 4: Character Limit. It's obviously full of great detailed, great color. 592 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 4: You guys did a wonderful job, So Ryan Mack and 593 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 4: Kate Conger, thank you both. For being on elon Ek. 594 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 5: Thanks Kurt, Thank you Kurt. 595 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 2: This episode was produced by Stacy Wong. Naomi Shaven and 596 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 2: Rayhan Harmanci are our senior editors. The idea for this 597 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 2: very show also came from Rayhun. Blake Maples handles engineering, 598 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 2: and Bill Elstrom fact checks. Our supervising producer is Magnus Hendrickson. 599 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 2: The Elonik theme is written and performed by Taka Yazuzawa 600 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 2: and Alex Sagiera. Brendan Francis Newnham is our executive producer, 601 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 2: and Sage Bauman is the head of Bloomberg Podcast. Big 602 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 2: thank you to our supporter Joel Weber. I'm Max Chafkin. 603 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 2: If you have a minute, rate and review our show, 604 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 2: it'll help other listeners find us and we will see 605 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 2: you next week.