Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg I Heard podcast,
Speaker 1: and I'm a Bloomberg Senior Crypto editor in Today for
Speaker 1: Stacy Marie Ishmael. It's Monday, October ten. The cooling crypto
Speaker 1: atmosphere and the subsequent downturn in trading has had a
Speaker 1: domino effect for people who work in the sector. In
Speaker 1: the wake of plummeting prices, a flurry of crypto firms
Speaker 1: reduced their numbers with significant layoffs. Coin Base announced an
Speaker 1: eighteen percent reduction of its workforce, block five cut their
Speaker 1: head count by and crypto dot Com by five. So
Speaker 1: suddenly you've got very skilled workforce redundant looking for new
Speaker 1: jobs in markets where like blockchain capability can be in
Speaker 1: very high in So what happens to these former crypto employees.
Speaker 1: Thanks for actually finding it quite difficult, incumbents for finding
Speaker 1: it a bit tough to get some of this talent.
Speaker 1: In the last six to nine months, an increasing number
Speaker 1: of them are getting snatched up by traditional finance firms
Speaker 1: or CHAD five. The skills that these talented engineers and
Speaker 1: developers have accumulated is now very much in demand with
Speaker 1: trad five firms who want to explore the crypto space
Speaker 1: and experiment with blockchain technologies. Today I'm joined by Bloomberg
Speaker 1: reporters Will Shaw and I Sha Gany. I'm William Sure,
Speaker 1: I cover finance from Bloomberg in London. I'm Agani. I'm
Speaker 1: the fintech reporter for Bloomberg News in London. To explore
Speaker 1: why Chad five institutions are swooping in for laid off
Speaker 1: DeFi experts, Hi Will and I Sha Nice of you
Speaker 1: to join us. So you guys worked on a story
Speaker 1: about what's going on with crypto workers and what is
Speaker 1: actually happening. There were lots of firings. What what did
Speaker 1: we find out? Who and start Will? So, Yeah, as
Speaker 1: as everyone knows, like crypto has been has been really
Speaker 1: crashing this year. Lots of like major companies working in
Speaker 1: that area have been like beefing up their staff very
Speaker 1: rapidly prior to the market meltdown. Um once prices started falling,
Speaker 1: they had suddenly had to contract quite quick quickly in
Speaker 1: terms of the staff that they employ. So we saw
Speaker 1: firms like bit Pander and block block five slashing jobs
Speaker 1: and one of the most prominent firms to do so
Speaker 1: was was coin Base which is the largest cryptocurrency exchange
Speaker 1: in the US. They cut about one one d staff
Speaker 1: or their workforce in June. So suddenly you've got very
Speaker 1: skilled workforce redundant looking for new jobs in markets where
Speaker 1: like blockchain capability can be in very high demand. And
Speaker 1: of course this happened in the summer, late summer, and
Speaker 1: so we thought it was a great opportunity to see,
Speaker 1: well where are all these people going, and have been
Speaker 1: speaking to a few fin techs and they said that
Speaker 1: this is hot, hot talent and basically very attractive. Want
Speaker 1: to hear them up. And it wasn't just the fintech
Speaker 1: we discovered through our reporting, it was also big tech
Speaker 1: and the traditional banks, so Wall Street and in the
Speaker 1: city of London. So why do banks want crypto? People
Speaker 1: are blockchain stack tech stuff. Well, I think the first
Speaker 1: thing to say about banks is they're very secretive about
Speaker 1: what they do around crypto, around many things, around around
Speaker 1: many things. Yeah, I mean that this is like a
Speaker 1: very contentious subject for them a lot of the time.
Speaker 1: Someone someone senior said to me the other day, the
Speaker 1: first thing about banks and crypto, the first rule is
Speaker 1: you don't talk about crypto. Now we have to have
Speaker 1: a fight club moment in the background some audio about
Speaker 1: about bike club. UM. But they are, yeah, they are
Speaker 1: expanding their capabilities in this area to some degree that
Speaker 1: seems to be to do with crypto trading. UM. A
Speaker 1: lot of it also appears to be more interested in
Speaker 1: the technology underneath in the blockchain and what that can
Speaker 1: do for trading more conventional securities. So we know, for example,
Speaker 1: that City is exploring how it can use blockchain in
Speaker 1: the bond settlement process. UM. So these big banks are
Speaker 1: or have been advertising for key roles around blockchain and
Speaker 1: crypto in in recent weeks. So City had been advertising
Speaker 1: for a director level digital asset risk manager for cryptocurrencies.
Speaker 1: Goldman Sacks has been looking for vice presidents UM again
Speaker 1: around crypto and blockchain, and JP Morgan's asset and wealth
Speaker 1: management business, which looks after two point seven trillion dollars
Speaker 1: worth of assets, is looking for what has been looking
Speaker 1: at least someone to oversee blockchain strategy including crypto and
Speaker 1: digital cur So those jobs definitely are out there. But
Speaker 1: having said that, we wrote this story late summers and
Speaker 1: considering the way the markets are right now, who knows
Speaker 1: what will happen, But just to add to the UM.
Speaker 1: We spoke to Thomas Olsen, who's that Bain and Company,
Speaker 1: and he was working in blockchain for the last ten years,
Speaker 1: and he said something really interesting in that banks are
Speaker 1: actually finding it quite difficult, incumbents of finding it a
Speaker 1: bit tough to get some of this talent in the
Speaker 1: last six to nine months. So they're very much using
Speaker 1: the crypto winter as opportunity to speed up, to get
Speaker 1: up to speed with um what was happening in crypto,
Speaker 1: and to skal up and to have some of this
Speaker 1: talent um that they didn't have before. All of these
Speaker 1: developers and folks who are specializing in compliance who also
Speaker 1: had the crypto um knowledge as well. So it was
Speaker 1: a great opportunity. And he said the next six to
Speaker 1: nine months was very much the time that they wanted
Speaker 1: to bring these people on board. So a lot of
Speaker 1: crypto originally, or like the Crypto ETOs, was very much
Speaker 1: anti bank, anti world street, andro centralization, right, So I wonder, like,
Speaker 1: how is it to go from that to banks? And
Speaker 1: we'll banks really want everyone there, right, Like I think
Speaker 1: we spoke to someone who said, oh, we don't really
Speaker 1: want them if they were like going after us before
Speaker 1: like I think there has been like a bit of
Speaker 1: smirking at the top levels of some banks, the fact
Speaker 1: that these people who have been sneering at the traditional
Speaker 1: banking sect for years and thinking they were above it
Speaker 1: all as suddenly completely on the rocks. One banking executive
Speaker 1: said to me, you know, we're watching with the interest
Speaker 1: and we will hire some of them, but we certainly
Speaker 1: won't be paying the premium of the month that we
Speaker 1: would have had to in years gone by, And I
Speaker 1: think they're you know, the culture of crypto and the
Speaker 1: culture of all street banking are very different. So obviously
Speaker 1: conventional banking is like much more tightly regulated. Compliance is
Speaker 1: a much more important area than it is for than
Speaker 1: it has been traditionally for crypto firms. So bank risk
Speaker 1: management as well, Yeah, risk management and banks will be
Speaker 1: expecting people joining from crypto firms to show that they
Speaker 1: understand how to how to perform in a tough regulatory environment.
Speaker 1: But of course a lot of these roles, I mean,
Speaker 1: there's a bit of a revolving door within these different sectors.
Speaker 1: A lot of folks who have gone into banking right
Speaker 1: now or had come from crypto perhaps weren't banking before.
Speaker 1: That would have been at startups before even that UM
Speaker 1: there obviously high, highly talented people with lots of skill
Speaker 1: sets being in both incumbents and then also fast growing startups.
Speaker 1: So I think for a lot of banks, they're also
Speaker 1: the sort of skill set they're bringing, and the fact
Speaker 1: that they are very much fast learners and can adapt
Speaker 1: very quickly is also an attractive process, even if they
Speaker 1: don't have all the skill sets to begin with. So
Speaker 1: you also spoke to fintech firms right that we're hiring
Speaker 1: you think you had another story earlier this year bar
Speaker 1: Revolute Um for a sort of US listeners. It's it's
Speaker 1: a big it's available in the US, but it's more
Speaker 1: popular in the UK. It's sort of a payments comp.
Speaker 1: It was a payments company originally, right. It became famous
Speaker 1: because it'll let you pay in different currencies in different countries.
Speaker 1: And they have a big crypto business and they're hiring
Speaker 1: still absolutely and um. We reported on how they had
Speaker 1: one their UK registration for their crypto asset business, which
Speaker 1: was a massive win for them and in terms of
Speaker 1: expanding in the UK, it's a huge thing. Earlier in
Speaker 1: the summer they told us that they were increasing their
Speaker 1: crypto headcount by twenty globally, and that would mostly in
Speaker 1: the UK, US and across Europe. They opened Crypto Hub
Speaker 1: in cypruss So you can just see by that characterization
Speaker 1: that there's huge growth in terms of their crypto business there.
Speaker 1: But with other FinTechs as well, even if they weren't
Speaker 1: focusing on crypto, they kind of need. That's sort of
Speaker 1: talented pool that we're talking about because we're talking about developers,
Speaker 1: we're talking about UM people. As we said, you have
Speaker 1: experienced in regulation or in food, so there is hot
Speaker 1: talent out there so UM. Some of the other fintech
Speaker 1: companies that we spoke to was Plaid, Stacks Um, also
Speaker 1: Starling bank Block and they all said that this is
Speaker 1: hot talent and they encourage people crypto experience to apply.
Speaker 1: After the break, we'll hear more from a Shan Will
Speaker 1: on why x crypto workers are moving from the fight
Speaker 1: to track five. So what's the reverse angle here, Like,
Speaker 1: what could happen to crypto if thanks all of us
Speaker 1: a sudden started becoming super attractive or actually the only
Speaker 1: place for an ho where you can work out if
Speaker 1: you're very good, and they'll be able to pay you
Speaker 1: more because crypto potentially has less money. Now, do you
Speaker 1: think they'll be potential drain of talent there or like
Speaker 1: will we see when the money when going? If it
Speaker 1: goes back up, then they'll be rehired. Like is it
Speaker 1: an endless back and forth? I think crypto firms will
Speaker 1: be very much hoping that they're they're down but not out.
Speaker 1: No one knows what's going to happen to bitcoin next.
Speaker 1: You know, it could go to zero, it could surge.
Speaker 1: These companies could all be back on their feet, and
Speaker 1: no doubt they'll be. They'll be hoping, They'll be hoping
Speaker 1: that that will be the case and that this this
Speaker 1: is not the end of the industry. When we spoke
Speaker 1: to coin base, they were still very much looking to
Speaker 1: the future. Um. They said they're they're continuing to hire
Speaker 1: permission critical roles and when we look at their website,
Speaker 1: they're still hiring for about sixty positions. UM. When we
Speaker 1: last slurt in in recent weeks, that's very very much
Speaker 1: less obviously than the over attis and then got laid off.
Speaker 1: They're still ticking along. When we spoke to them, they said,
Speaker 1: we remain focused on our mission of promoting economic freedom
Speaker 1: around the world. So yeah, I don't know what was
Speaker 1: the bank slogan equivalent of that. I don't I don't
Speaker 1: know if they have it, Like, yeah, it's it's a
Speaker 1: different inspirational thing if you're trying to find something that
Speaker 1: moves you to a job. But yeah, you you mentioned
Speaker 1: coin based. You know, many of these companies have been
Speaker 1: in crypto for coin Based was like one of the
Speaker 1: one of the companies that was there from the starts,
Speaker 1: so they are kind of used to this, like having
Speaker 1: to contract and expand contracting expanse, so it's not really
Speaker 1: new to them. So they probably already have a playbook
Speaker 1: of how to like rehire what to rehire in They
Speaker 1: probably I would imagine many of them might know where
Speaker 1: they cut first. Is it maybe like customer server like
Speaker 1: areas that you know are easier to like scale up
Speaker 1: and down, whereas perhaps you always need ahead of security
Speaker 1: like because you always have of those assets. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: the ones that the roles that coin based are trying
Speaker 1: to fill a very functional, very sort of sensible, grown
Speaker 1: up kind of roles like business operations and strategy, human resources, recruiting,
Speaker 1: legal and compliance. Of course, they're like now a listed
Speaker 1: company I compared to their previous Yeah, and these are
Speaker 1: these are companies, you know, not not coin based, but
Speaker 1: the companies and professionals that very clever, very skilled, have
Speaker 1: like often lived on the seat of their pants, flying
Speaker 1: by the seat of their pants a bit, I think.
Speaker 1: And they'll be they'll you know, their survivors, they know
Speaker 1: how to adapt. They'll be they'll be hoping and planning
Speaker 1: on a return. I'm sure. Absolutely. They seem very bullish
Speaker 1: and that's it. They believe in crypto. They believe and
Speaker 1: that's why they're there. And they've seen these cycles before.
Speaker 1: So for a lot of them who have remained feel like, well,
Speaker 1: we've been through this already, so why would we leave now? Yeah,
Speaker 1: And you know it's not just I mean, we're obviously
Speaker 1: in a crypto winter, but it's definitely not easy times
Speaker 1: for in general and perhaps finance and perhaps in this
Speaker 1: case the country at large. So so so I wonder, like,
Speaker 1: you know, uh, we're talking about crypto, but maybe like
Speaker 1: they will, they will recover faster than at tech firm
Speaker 1: like you know, you cover like final pay later a lot.
Speaker 1: So you know, there's firms there whose valuations have been slashed.
Speaker 1: So in a sense I wonder like, do you see
Speaker 1: them perhaps rehiring more? Do you see like tech firms? Like?
Speaker 1: What might that such a good question? We just saw
Speaker 1: Clanna reports that Klanner last week. We're looking into more cards,
Speaker 1: especially if companies dealing with high interest rates who are lending.
Speaker 1: We'll have to keep an eye out on that. UM.
Speaker 1: I think different firms and different sections of fintech will
Speaker 1: fare better or worse in what we're going into right now,
Speaker 1: especially if you're a wealth management UM app, maybe you'll
Speaker 1: do better right UM, it's really hard to tell. But again,
Speaker 1: a lot of these FinTechs, they survived the pandemic before that,
Speaker 1: they got through Brexit, They've been in quite a volatile
Speaker 1: situation for a while, and they've been challenging the incumbents
Speaker 1: for all these years. So I think a lot of
Speaker 1: them will feel rather bullish and they're like, Okay, this
Speaker 1: is a challenge we can take on. They'll tell us
Speaker 1: that they're absolutely but the state we're in, I just
Speaker 1: don't know. And we're in a very difficult global economic
Speaker 1: environment at the moment, and so workers inherently might well
Speaker 1: feel at this time they'd rather be a well established
Speaker 1: firm that they know isn't going to go bust. They'd
Speaker 1: rather be at a Wall Street banker or or a
Speaker 1: hedge fund, for example, and that it's better to be
Speaker 1: away from the inherent risk that surrounds like crypto companies.
Speaker 1: But if the economy, if and when the economy gets
Speaker 1: back on its feet, that that whole calculation may shift.
Speaker 1: People may feel ready to get stuck back into like
Speaker 1: risk your roles where they can you know, make even
Speaker 1: more money, where the options in a crypto company become
Speaker 1: worth more money. If they're being paid in those like things,
Speaker 1: things could shift quite quickly. And you mentioned talken payments
Speaker 1: in some cases, like the tokens are part of the compensation.
Speaker 1: So in a market that's crashing, like you really have
Speaker 1: to believe in the company and what the value that
Speaker 1: company isn't perhaps that it's token we'll go up as
Speaker 1: part of your compensation. I just spoke to a guy
Speaker 1: who who had left coin based recently. He was on
Speaker 1: a great package. He was on about a hundred seventy
Speaker 1: five thousand dollars plus a generous stock option package, and
Speaker 1: he said one of the issues was that colleagues where
Speaker 1: they're pay had been converted into crypto, started started panicking,
Speaker 1: and that was a catalyst for them getting out and
Speaker 1: jumping ship. But yeah, if crypto looked like a safe
Speaker 1: bet again, suddenly these jobs could look really, really appealing. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I've seen a lot of people on Twitter, for example,
Speaker 1: sharing bitcoin versus the pound, you know, the territory that
Speaker 1: way in at the moment um. And yeah, it might
Speaker 1: sound flippant, but I guess these are calculations that people
Speaker 1: will be making. Yeah, I don't know what's scary being
Speaker 1: paid in the in the bitcoin now being painted in
Speaker 1: sterling at the moment true. Okay, let's go back and
Speaker 1: start crying all in a corner here and none. All right,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1: That yeah, yeah, yeah. You can find more of will
Speaker 1: and I is reporting on the Bloomberg terminal on Bloomberg
Speaker 1: dot com and on Twitter at Sagani at A I
Speaker 1: S H A G A and I and at William
Speaker 1: Shaw five or six. That's at W I L L
Speaker 1: I A M S H A W five four six.
Speaker 1: I'm an ere Bloomberg Senior crypto editor on the next
Speaker 1: episode of Bloomberg Crypto. If you're an avid follower of
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Speaker 1: exactly how and what's next should be coming down the
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Speaker 1: usick by Leo Sidran. I'm Stacy Maria Shmael. We'll be
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