WEBVTT - Fallen Crypto Faithful Seek Refuge in TradFi

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<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg I Heard podcast,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm a Bloomberg Senior Crypto editor in Today for

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<v Speaker 1>Stacy Marie Ishmael. It's Monday, October ten. The cooling crypto

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<v Speaker 1>atmosphere and the subsequent downturn in trading has had a

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<v Speaker 1>domino effect for people who work in the sector. In

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<v Speaker 1>the wake of plummeting prices, a flurry of crypto firms

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<v Speaker 1>reduced their numbers with significant layoffs. Coin Base announced an

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<v Speaker 1>eighteen percent reduction of its workforce, block five cut their

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<v Speaker 1>head count by and crypto dot Com by five. So

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<v Speaker 1>suddenly you've got very skilled workforce redundant looking for new

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<v Speaker 1>jobs in markets where like blockchain capability can be in

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<v Speaker 1>very high in So what happens to these former crypto employees.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks for actually finding it quite difficult, incumbents for finding

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<v Speaker 1>it a bit tough to get some of this talent.

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<v Speaker 1>In the last six to nine months, an increasing number

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<v Speaker 1>of them are getting snatched up by traditional finance firms

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<v Speaker 1>or CHAD five. The skills that these talented engineers and

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<v Speaker 1>developers have accumulated is now very much in demand with

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<v Speaker 1>trad five firms who want to explore the crypto space

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<v Speaker 1>and experiment with blockchain technologies. Today I'm joined by Bloomberg

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<v Speaker 1>reporters Will Shaw and I Sha Gany. I'm William Sure,

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<v Speaker 1>I cover finance from Bloomberg in London. I'm Agani. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>the fintech reporter for Bloomberg News in London. To explore

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<v Speaker 1>why Chad five institutions are swooping in for laid off

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<v Speaker 1>DeFi experts, Hi Will and I Sha Nice of you

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<v Speaker 1>to join us. So you guys worked on a story

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<v Speaker 1>about what's going on with crypto workers and what is

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<v Speaker 1>actually happening. There were lots of firings. What what did

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<v Speaker 1>we find out? Who and start Will? So, Yeah, as

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<v Speaker 1>as everyone knows, like crypto has been has been really

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<v Speaker 1>crashing this year. Lots of like major companies working in

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<v Speaker 1>that area have been like beefing up their staff very

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<v Speaker 1>rapidly prior to the market meltdown. Um once prices started falling,

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<v Speaker 1>they had suddenly had to contract quite quick quickly in

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<v Speaker 1>terms of the staff that they employ. So we saw

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<v Speaker 1>firms like bit Pander and block block five slashing jobs

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<v Speaker 1>and one of the most prominent firms to do so

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<v Speaker 1>was was coin Base which is the largest cryptocurrency exchange

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<v Speaker 1>in the US. They cut about one one d staff

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<v Speaker 1>or their workforce in June. So suddenly you've got very

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<v Speaker 1>skilled workforce redundant looking for new jobs in markets where

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<v Speaker 1>like blockchain capability can be in very high demand. And

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<v Speaker 1>of course this happened in the summer, late summer, and

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<v Speaker 1>so we thought it was a great opportunity to see,

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<v Speaker 1>well where are all these people going, and have been

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<v Speaker 1>speaking to a few fin techs and they said that

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<v Speaker 1>this is hot, hot talent and basically very attractive. Want

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<v Speaker 1>to hear them up. And it wasn't just the fintech

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<v Speaker 1>we discovered through our reporting, it was also big tech

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<v Speaker 1>and the traditional banks, so Wall Street and in the

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<v Speaker 1>city of London. So why do banks want crypto? People

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<v Speaker 1>are blockchain stack tech stuff. Well, I think the first

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<v Speaker 1>thing to say about banks is they're very secretive about

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<v Speaker 1>what they do around crypto, around many things, around around

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<v Speaker 1>many things. Yeah, I mean that this is like a

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<v Speaker 1>very contentious subject for them a lot of the time.

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<v Speaker 1>Someone someone senior said to me the other day, the

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<v Speaker 1>first thing about banks and crypto, the first rule is

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<v Speaker 1>you don't talk about crypto. Now we have to have

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<v Speaker 1>a fight club moment in the background some audio about

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<v Speaker 1>about bike club. UM. But they are, yeah, they are

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<v Speaker 1>expanding their capabilities in this area to some degree that

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<v Speaker 1>seems to be to do with crypto trading. UM. A

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<v Speaker 1>lot of it also appears to be more interested in

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<v Speaker 1>the technology underneath in the blockchain and what that can

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<v Speaker 1>do for trading more conventional securities. So we know, for example,

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<v Speaker 1>that City is exploring how it can use blockchain in

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<v Speaker 1>the bond settlement process. UM. So these big banks are

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<v Speaker 1>or have been advertising for key roles around blockchain and

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<v Speaker 1>crypto in in recent weeks. So City had been advertising

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<v Speaker 1>for a director level digital asset risk manager for cryptocurrencies.

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<v Speaker 1>Goldman Sacks has been looking for vice presidents UM again

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<v Speaker 1>around crypto and blockchain, and JP Morgan's asset and wealth

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<v Speaker 1>management business, which looks after two point seven trillion dollars

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<v Speaker 1>worth of assets, is looking for what has been looking

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<v Speaker 1>at least someone to oversee blockchain strategy including crypto and

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<v Speaker 1>digital cur So those jobs definitely are out there. But

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<v Speaker 1>having said that, we wrote this story late summers and

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<v Speaker 1>considering the way the markets are right now, who knows

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<v Speaker 1>what will happen, But just to add to the UM.

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<v Speaker 1>We spoke to Thomas Olsen, who's that Bain and Company,

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<v Speaker 1>and he was working in blockchain for the last ten years,

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<v Speaker 1>and he said something really interesting in that banks are

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<v Speaker 1>actually finding it quite difficult, incumbents of finding it a

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<v Speaker 1>bit tough to get some of this talent in the

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<v Speaker 1>last six to nine months. So they're very much using

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<v Speaker 1>the crypto winter as opportunity to speed up, to get

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<v Speaker 1>up to speed with um what was happening in crypto,

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<v Speaker 1>and to skal up and to have some of this

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<v Speaker 1>talent um that they didn't have before. All of these

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<v Speaker 1>developers and folks who are specializing in compliance who also

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<v Speaker 1>had the crypto um knowledge as well. So it was

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<v Speaker 1>a great opportunity. And he said the next six to

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<v Speaker 1>nine months was very much the time that they wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to bring these people on board. So a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>crypto originally, or like the Crypto ETOs, was very much

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<v Speaker 1>anti bank, anti world street, andro centralization, right, So I wonder, like,

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<v Speaker 1>how is it to go from that to banks? And

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<v Speaker 1>we'll banks really want everyone there, right, Like I think

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<v Speaker 1>we spoke to someone who said, oh, we don't really

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<v Speaker 1>want them if they were like going after us before

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<v Speaker 1>like I think there has been like a bit of

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<v Speaker 1>smirking at the top levels of some banks, the fact

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<v Speaker 1>that these people who have been sneering at the traditional

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<v Speaker 1>banking sect for years and thinking they were above it

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<v Speaker 1>all as suddenly completely on the rocks. One banking executive

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<v Speaker 1>said to me, you know, we're watching with the interest

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<v Speaker 1>and we will hire some of them, but we certainly

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<v Speaker 1>won't be paying the premium of the month that we

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<v Speaker 1>would have had to in years gone by, And I

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<v Speaker 1>think they're you know, the culture of crypto and the

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<v Speaker 1>culture of all street banking are very different. So obviously

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<v Speaker 1>conventional banking is like much more tightly regulated. Compliance is

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<v Speaker 1>a much more important area than it is for than

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<v Speaker 1>it has been traditionally for crypto firms. So bank risk

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<v Speaker 1>management as well, Yeah, risk management and banks will be

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<v Speaker 1>expecting people joining from crypto firms to show that they

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<v Speaker 1>understand how to how to perform in a tough regulatory environment.

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<v Speaker 1>But of course a lot of these roles, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>there's a bit of a revolving door within these different sectors.

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<v Speaker 1>A lot of folks who have gone into banking right

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<v Speaker 1>now or had come from crypto perhaps weren't banking before.

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<v Speaker 1>That would have been at startups before even that UM

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<v Speaker 1>there obviously high, highly talented people with lots of skill

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<v Speaker 1>sets being in both incumbents and then also fast growing startups.

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<v Speaker 1>So I think for a lot of banks, they're also

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<v Speaker 1>the sort of skill set they're bringing, and the fact

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<v Speaker 1>that they are very much fast learners and can adapt

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<v Speaker 1>very quickly is also an attractive process, even if they

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<v Speaker 1>don't have all the skill sets to begin with. So

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<v Speaker 1>you also spoke to fintech firms right that we're hiring

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<v Speaker 1>you think you had another story earlier this year bar

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<v Speaker 1>Revolute Um for a sort of US listeners. It's it's

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<v Speaker 1>a big it's available in the US, but it's more

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<v Speaker 1>popular in the UK. It's sort of a payments comp.

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<v Speaker 1>It was a payments company originally, right. It became famous

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<v Speaker 1>because it'll let you pay in different currencies in different countries.

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<v Speaker 1>And they have a big crypto business and they're hiring

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<v Speaker 1>still absolutely and um. We reported on how they had

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<v Speaker 1>one their UK registration for their crypto asset business, which

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<v Speaker 1>was a massive win for them and in terms of

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<v Speaker 1>expanding in the UK, it's a huge thing. Earlier in

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<v Speaker 1>the summer they told us that they were increasing their

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<v Speaker 1>crypto headcount by twenty globally, and that would mostly in

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<v Speaker 1>the UK, US and across Europe. They opened Crypto Hub

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<v Speaker 1>in cypruss So you can just see by that characterization

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<v Speaker 1>that there's huge growth in terms of their crypto business there.

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<v Speaker 1>But with other FinTechs as well, even if they weren't

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<v Speaker 1>focusing on crypto, they kind of need. That's sort of

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<v Speaker 1>talented pool that we're talking about because we're talking about developers,

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<v Speaker 1>we're talking about UM people. As we said, you have

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<v Speaker 1>experienced in regulation or in food, so there is hot

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<v Speaker 1>talent out there so UM. Some of the other fintech

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<v Speaker 1>companies that we spoke to was Plaid, Stacks Um, also

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<v Speaker 1>Starling bank Block and they all said that this is

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<v Speaker 1>hot talent and they encourage people crypto experience to apply.

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<v Speaker 1>After the break, we'll hear more from a Shan Will

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<v Speaker 1>on why x crypto workers are moving from the fight

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<v Speaker 1>to track five. So what's the reverse angle here, Like,

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<v Speaker 1>what could happen to crypto if thanks all of us

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<v Speaker 1>a sudden started becoming super attractive or actually the only

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<v Speaker 1>place for an ho where you can work out if

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<v Speaker 1>you're very good, and they'll be able to pay you

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<v Speaker 1>more because crypto potentially has less money. Now, do you

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<v Speaker 1>think they'll be potential drain of talent there or like

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<v Speaker 1>will we see when the money when going? If it

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<v Speaker 1>goes back up, then they'll be rehired. Like is it

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<v Speaker 1>an endless back and forth? I think crypto firms will

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<v Speaker 1>be very much hoping that they're they're down but not out.

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<v Speaker 1>No one knows what's going to happen to bitcoin next.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, it could go to zero, it could surge.

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<v Speaker 1>These companies could all be back on their feet, and

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<v Speaker 1>no doubt they'll be. They'll be hoping, They'll be hoping

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<v Speaker 1>that that will be the case and that this this

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<v Speaker 1>is not the end of the industry. When we spoke

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<v Speaker 1>to coin base, they were still very much looking to

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<v Speaker 1>the future. Um. They said they're they're continuing to hire

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<v Speaker 1>permission critical roles and when we look at their website,

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<v Speaker 1>they're still hiring for about sixty positions. UM. When we

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<v Speaker 1>last slurt in in recent weeks, that's very very much

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<v Speaker 1>less obviously than the over attis and then got laid off.

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<v Speaker 1>They're still ticking along. When we spoke to them, they said,

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<v Speaker 1>we remain focused on our mission of promoting economic freedom

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<v Speaker 1>around the world. So yeah, I don't know what was

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<v Speaker 1>the bank slogan equivalent of that. I don't I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know if they have it, Like, yeah, it's it's a

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<v Speaker 1>different inspirational thing if you're trying to find something that

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<v Speaker 1>moves you to a job. But yeah, you you mentioned

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<v Speaker 1>coin based. You know, many of these companies have been

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<v Speaker 1>in crypto for coin Based was like one of the

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<v Speaker 1>one of the companies that was there from the starts,

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<v Speaker 1>so they are kind of used to this, like having

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<v Speaker 1>to contract and expand contracting expanse, so it's not really

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<v Speaker 1>new to them. So they probably already have a playbook

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<v Speaker 1>of how to like rehire what to rehire in They

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<v Speaker 1>probably I would imagine many of them might know where

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<v Speaker 1>they cut first. Is it maybe like customer server like

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<v Speaker 1>areas that you know are easier to like scale up

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<v Speaker 1>and down, whereas perhaps you always need ahead of security

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<v Speaker 1>like because you always have of those assets. Yeah, and

0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:03.400
<v Speaker 1>the ones that the roles that coin based are trying

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<v Speaker 1>to fill a very functional, very sort of sensible, grown

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<v Speaker 1>up kind of roles like business operations and strategy, human resources, recruiting,

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<v Speaker 1>legal and compliance. Of course, they're like now a listed

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<v Speaker 1>company I compared to their previous Yeah, and these are

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<v Speaker 1>these are companies, you know, not not coin based, but

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<v Speaker 1>the companies and professionals that very clever, very skilled, have

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<v Speaker 1>like often lived on the seat of their pants, flying

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<v Speaker 1>by the seat of their pants a bit, I think.

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<v Speaker 1>And they'll be they'll you know, their survivors, they know

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<v Speaker 1>how to adapt. They'll be they'll be hoping and planning

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<v Speaker 1>on a return. I'm sure. Absolutely. They seem very bullish

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<v Speaker 1>and that's it. They believe in crypto. They believe and

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<v Speaker 1>that's why they're there. And they've seen these cycles before.

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<v Speaker 1>So for a lot of them who have remained feel like, well,

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<v Speaker 1>we've been through this already, so why would we leave now? Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>And you know it's not just I mean, we're obviously

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<v Speaker 1>in a crypto winter, but it's definitely not easy times

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<v Speaker 1>for in general and perhaps finance and perhaps in this

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<v Speaker 1>case the country at large. So so so I wonder, like,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, uh, we're talking about crypto, but maybe like

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<v Speaker 1>they will, they will recover faster than at tech firm

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<v Speaker 1>like you know, you cover like final pay later a lot.

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<v Speaker 1>So you know, there's firms there whose valuations have been slashed.

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<v Speaker 1>So in a sense I wonder like, do you see

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<v Speaker 1>them perhaps rehiring more? Do you see like tech firms? Like?

0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:29.400
<v Speaker 1>What might that such a good question? We just saw

0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:33.800
<v Speaker 1>Clanna reports that Klanner last week. We're looking into more cards,

0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:38.240
<v Speaker 1>especially if companies dealing with high interest rates who are lending.

0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:41.880
<v Speaker 1>We'll have to keep an eye out on that. UM.

0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:46.120
<v Speaker 1>I think different firms and different sections of fintech will

0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:50.240
<v Speaker 1>fare better or worse in what we're going into right now,

0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:53.959
<v Speaker 1>especially if you're a wealth management UM app, maybe you'll

0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:58.360
<v Speaker 1>do better right UM, it's really hard to tell. But again,

0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:02.280
<v Speaker 1>a lot of these FinTechs, they survived the pandemic before that,

0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:05.600
<v Speaker 1>they got through Brexit, They've been in quite a volatile

0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:10.040
<v Speaker 1>situation for a while, and they've been challenging the incumbents

0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:13.440
<v Speaker 1>for all these years. So I think a lot of

0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:15.840
<v Speaker 1>them will feel rather bullish and they're like, Okay, this

0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:17.679
<v Speaker 1>is a challenge we can take on. They'll tell us

0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:23.200
<v Speaker 1>that they're absolutely but the state we're in, I just

0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:26.200
<v Speaker 1>don't know. And we're in a very difficult global economic

0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:30.640
<v Speaker 1>environment at the moment, and so workers inherently might well

0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:34.160
<v Speaker 1>feel at this time they'd rather be a well established

0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:36.640
<v Speaker 1>firm that they know isn't going to go bust. They'd

0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:39.400
<v Speaker 1>rather be at a Wall Street banker or or a

0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:42.280
<v Speaker 1>hedge fund, for example, and that it's better to be

0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:46.280
<v Speaker 1>away from the inherent risk that surrounds like crypto companies.

0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:49.200
<v Speaker 1>But if the economy, if and when the economy gets

0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:52.280
<v Speaker 1>back on its feet, that that whole calculation may shift.

0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:55.400
<v Speaker 1>People may feel ready to get stuck back into like

0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:58.240
<v Speaker 1>risk your roles where they can you know, make even

0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:02.280
<v Speaker 1>more money, where the options in a crypto company become

0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:05.520
<v Speaker 1>worth more money. If they're being paid in those like things,

0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:08.480
<v Speaker 1>things could shift quite quickly. And you mentioned talken payments

0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:11.200
<v Speaker 1>in some cases, like the tokens are part of the compensation.

0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:13.520
<v Speaker 1>So in a market that's crashing, like you really have

0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:16.240
<v Speaker 1>to believe in the company and what the value that

0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:18.640
<v Speaker 1>company isn't perhaps that it's token we'll go up as

0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:22.840
<v Speaker 1>part of your compensation. I just spoke to a guy

0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:25.320
<v Speaker 1>who who had left coin based recently. He was on

0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:27.760
<v Speaker 1>a great package. He was on about a hundred seventy

0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:31.280
<v Speaker 1>five thousand dollars plus a generous stock option package, and

0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:34.640
<v Speaker 1>he said one of the issues was that colleagues where

0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:38.960
<v Speaker 1>they're pay had been converted into crypto, started started panicking,

0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:41.560
<v Speaker 1>and that was a catalyst for them getting out and

0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:45.000
<v Speaker 1>jumping ship. But yeah, if crypto looked like a safe

0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:49.480
<v Speaker 1>bet again, suddenly these jobs could look really, really appealing. Yeah.

0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:52.800
<v Speaker 1>And I've seen a lot of people on Twitter, for example,

0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:58.760
<v Speaker 1>sharing bitcoin versus the pound, you know, the territory that

0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:02.200
<v Speaker 1>way in at the moment um. And yeah, it might

0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:05.600
<v Speaker 1>sound flippant, but I guess these are calculations that people

0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:07.920
<v Speaker 1>will be making. Yeah, I don't know what's scary being

0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:10.560
<v Speaker 1>paid in the in the bitcoin now being painted in

0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:14.000
<v Speaker 1>sterling at the moment true. Okay, let's go back and

0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:16.920
<v Speaker 1>start crying all in a corner here and none. All right,

0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:19.440
<v Speaker 1>thank you so much for joining us. Thank you very much.

0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:24.480
<v Speaker 1>That yeah, yeah, yeah. You can find more of will

0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:27.600
<v Speaker 1>and I is reporting on the Bloomberg terminal on Bloomberg

0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:31.000
<v Speaker 1>dot com and on Twitter at Sagani at A I

0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:35.360
<v Speaker 1>S H A G A and I and at William

0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:39.600
<v Speaker 1>Shaw five or six. That's at W I L L

0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:43.840
<v Speaker 1>I A M S H A W five four six.

0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:51.240
<v Speaker 1>I'm an ere Bloomberg Senior crypto editor on the next

0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:54.120
<v Speaker 1>episode of Bloomberg Crypto. If you're an avid follower of

0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:56.040
<v Speaker 1>whatever the US is up two as it relates to

0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:58.840
<v Speaker 1>crypto regulation, then you might know it's time to get

0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:01.880
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0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:05.639
<v Speaker 1>exactly how and what's next should be coming down the

0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:09.400
<v Speaker 1>pipeline as it relates to crypto regulation. For everyone else,

0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:24.360
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0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:51.000
<v Speaker 1>of Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky Verglina. Our senior producer is

0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:55.679
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0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:59.840
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