1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy D. Wilson. We're still 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:21,440 Speaker 1: in the middle of a pandemic. We are, uh we 5 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: we have been talking about what this strange thing is 6 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: to be living in the middle of a pandemic, and 7 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: also what a strange thing it is as too people 8 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: who study history and have studied pandemics. Uh So we're 9 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 1: having a little departure from our normal show today where 10 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 1: Tracy and I are going to kind of talk about 11 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:44,239 Speaker 1: this whole thing that we're all living through from the 12 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: perspective of people that study history, but also just experientially 13 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: what has been going on and and what we are 14 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: all dealing with because it's a very strange time, fraught 15 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: much panic going on. Yeah, we'll talk maybe towards the 16 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: end of about what isolation has been like, because I've 17 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:05,680 Speaker 1: been sort of marveling at how differently it's played out 18 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: for people that I know in my life and certainly 19 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 1: talking to my therapist a lot about it. But first, um, like, 20 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: we're we're in this unique position clearly where we have 21 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: a front row seat to history being made, but you 22 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: don't always realize it when it starts that you're part 23 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:26,960 Speaker 1: of a historical event. So what I'm curious about to 24 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: start with, Tracy, is do you remember when you first 25 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: heard about what eventually became known as COVID nineteen, but 26 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 1: first was just coronavirus? Yeah? I think I had heard 27 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: about there being some kind of novel coronavirus circulating in China. UM, 28 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: either late late late or the very beginning of UM. 29 00:01:55,760 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 1: Because I I start my day off every day I 30 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: looking at a whole bunch of stuff online as I'm 31 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: kind of getting my thoughts together, and some of it's 32 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: fun stuff, but it also includes multiple news sites. So 33 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: pretty much every morning I'm looking at the Boston Globe, 34 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: the New York Times, the Washington Post, UH, the Atlantic, 35 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 1: and Slate. Those are things that I look at every morning. 36 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: And so I am really sure that in the early 37 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: days of what was happening in China, I was at 38 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: least aware that something was happening, and then I started 39 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: keeping very close tabs on it because of my own 40 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: planned travel that was coming up in March. UM. I 41 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:40,519 Speaker 1: want to talk about that in a minute. Oh, I'm 42 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:44,639 Speaker 1: eager too. I do, because there are a lot of 43 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 1: questions that I know people have had and I'm I'm 44 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: curious what your thoughts are. I feel like I kind 45 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,359 Speaker 1: of knew there was something brewing, and then it became 46 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: really really obvious because I went to l A for 47 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: the podcast words and came back with the worst flu 48 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 1: of my life. And that was in January, and of 49 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 1: course everyone was like, did you catch that weird virus 50 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: that came over from China? And I'm like, I don't 51 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 1: think so. Um, I don't know. We had no idea 52 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: really anything about it at that point on us soil um. 53 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: I will say that I have never taken a week 54 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: off of work because I couldn't move before, which that was. 55 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: But there are also a lot of gross flues that 56 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: went around this year, so yeah, it could have just 57 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: been one of those. I don't have any idea and 58 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: never will. Yeah. I know multiple people who got like 59 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 1: a diagnosed confirmed with a test influenza this year, many 60 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: of whom had also gotten a flu shot UM, so 61 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: that like wasn't necessarily a predictor of whether people were 62 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: getting the flu or not. The one time that I 63 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: have had influenza as an adult that's the sickest that 64 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: I've ever been in my adult life. Wait a minute, 65 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: you've only had the flu once? Yes, only well as 66 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: an adult, Like I'm not like to forget everything in 67 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: my childhood only one. I feel like I gotta stop 68 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: licking things. I've had bad colds before, and I might 69 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: have had bad colds that I described as the flu, 70 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: but once I'd actually had the flu, I was like, no, 71 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: that was a whole different thing. I think I did 72 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: miss an entire week of work. I'm also pretty sure 73 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: I got it from someone who came to work with it, 74 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: which I have not quite forgiven them for um like 75 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: that was it was. I was very it was a 76 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:41,280 Speaker 1: very frustrating time to be sick. I missed the birth 77 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 1: of a friend's baby because I was at home with 78 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 1: the flu. There was no possible way I could go 79 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: see them in the hospital. Like that was just my 80 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 1: own personal frustration. But yeah, that's that's the sickest that 81 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: I've ever been as a grown adult. Yeah. I've had 82 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,599 Speaker 1: one other flu that was a close second to the 83 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: one I had in January, which was actually back in 84 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,159 Speaker 1: two thousand. I've had others in the interim, but I 85 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:06,679 Speaker 1: wanted to. Like it was literally the new year turnover 86 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:09,159 Speaker 1: to two thousands. So while some people were still having 87 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: y two K panic, I was like, will food ever 88 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: go down again? Oh? No, panic going on. I had 89 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: a runner up upper respiratory infection one time that made 90 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,359 Speaker 1: me almost as sick um and I missed three or 91 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: four days of work. But that was a different thing, 92 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 1: Like that was a bacterial upper respiratory infection that I 93 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: was on antibiotics for, not influenza. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever I 94 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: had in January was just I was like a limp 95 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 1: rag of a human. At one point I got really 96 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: ambitious and thought I was gonna go make myself something 97 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:45,280 Speaker 1: to drink, and about fifteen minutes later, Brian walked in 98 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: the kitchen and just kind of found me slumped into 99 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: the sink. It was like, what did you do it? 100 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: Let's get you back to bed. But I'm fine now. 101 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: Uh So enough about that. When did you realize that 102 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: this was like a significant thing. That's so that's a 103 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: weird question. It is because um, I back in April 104 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: of nineteen bought tickets to go on the Jonathan Coulting Cruise, 105 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: which was scheduled to depart from Fort Lauderdale, Florida on 106 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:29,039 Speaker 1: March seven. UM. So, especially in February and March, I, 107 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:32,160 Speaker 1: like I a lot of other people I know, we 108 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: were keeping a really close eye on what was happening, 109 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: especially as cruise ships started to make headlines for having 110 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,039 Speaker 1: huge outbreaks and quarantines on board and things like that. 111 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 1: So we still went on this trip. We went on 112 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: the trip UH knowing that there were serious things happening 113 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: in UH, in China and in Italy and in some 114 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: other like specific parts of the US UM but like 115 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 1: we had done sort of this really calculated risk assessment 116 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: for ourselves to figure out, like, okay, what what are 117 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: the odds of their being an outbreak on our ship? 118 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: What are the odds of our not being able to 119 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: get home at the end of the trip, like all 120 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: this stuff. And when we left, the guidance that we 121 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: were getting from like pretty established reputable medical people was 122 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: wash your hands, don't touch your face, stay home if 123 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: you're sick, And we felt pretty okay about going. We 124 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: got on a ship and we left on March seven. 125 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: On March eighth, the U. S State Department said US 126 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: citizens don't get on cruise ships, and we were like 127 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: whelp uh uh. And then it got worse from there 128 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: because then on the eleventh the pandemic was declared and 129 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: what happened. I mean, it was a fun trip the 130 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: whole trip. It did feel like coronavirus was present on 131 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: the whole trip. There was a huge focus among everyone 132 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: about washing our hands. We were sharing our song tips 133 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: for what song to sing while you're washing your hands. 134 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: Like the crew of the ship seemed extremely focused on 135 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: making sure that everyone stayed healthy. But after that pandemic 136 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: declaration and then the ban on flights from Europe and 137 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: all this other stuff, like everything became way more serious 138 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: than it had been, and there was nothing we could 139 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: do about it. Like we had already left the only 140 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: port where we anybody could feasibly have gotten to an 141 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: international airport to go home. Um, we had other weird 142 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: things that happened because of weather that that that changed 143 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 1: our whole port schedule, but like we were just on 144 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: the ship, there was nothing we could do about it. Um. 145 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,680 Speaker 1: People who live in hub cities in the US were 146 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: like offering up crash space to people who were on 147 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: the cruise from Europe who were worried that they couldn't 148 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: get home. Like the whole thing just became a whole 149 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: lot more urgent. Um. We had left on the trip 150 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: prepared to go home, to come home and self isolate 151 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: for fourteen days, like out of an abundance of caution, 152 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 1: and we were just sort of prepared for that possibility. 153 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,079 Speaker 1: We were not at all expecting to get home from 154 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: the cruise and have the entire uh community where we 155 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: live essentially being on lockdown, like I was not. It 156 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 1: was not a thing that that we were like expecting 157 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: ourselves two out of an abundance of caution, keep ourselves 158 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: away from other people too for fourteen days. We were 159 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: not expecting that to be the increasing guidance of more 160 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: and more cities all around the country. I will say 161 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: I was surprised that you went on the trip, yeah, 162 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 1: because I don't think it's a secret and that I'm 163 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 1: outing you to say that you deal with some anxiety 164 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: we've talked about on the show before. I was really like, 165 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: there's no way Tracy's getting on that boat. Um. And 166 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: it was a little bit interesting. But I'm glad you 167 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: talked about the fact because you were a smart person 168 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: and your beloved Patrick is also very smart, and that 169 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 1: you had this very thoughtful risk assessment because I remember 170 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: seeing like people on Twitter talking about the Joco Cruise 171 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: and being like, I can't believe anybody got on that boat. 172 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: And I'm like, wait a minute, Like one everybody has 173 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: to make their own decisions about anything, and to the 174 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: boat was still running. It wasn't like the boat said 175 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: we don't really want to do this and you guys 176 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,319 Speaker 1: like stormed the captain's quarters and made him do it. 177 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: It was a functioning ship. Yeah, we did get off 178 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: the last cruise for at least a month when we 179 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: got off the boat. Um, But yes, I I kind 180 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 1: of compare it to I don't know if I've talked 181 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: about it on this show as much before, But for 182 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: a really long time, I was terrified of airplanes, like 183 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: I had been uncomfortable with them, and then I had 184 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 1: a bad experience and I did not get on a 185 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 1: plane at all for more than a decade um, and 186 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 1: like I would have nightmares when they were air travel 187 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: incidents in the news, Like it was just a whole 188 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: huge thing. Um. And I knew rationally that being on 189 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: a plane was much safer than being in a car, 190 00:10:56,120 --> 00:11:00,839 Speaker 1: and that there are like whenever something happens on an airplane, 191 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 1: it makes huge headlines, but most of the airplanes are fine. 192 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: And that was also how I sort of felt about 193 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: the cruise, like there were some cruise ships that had 194 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: huge problems, but most of the cruise ships were fine, 195 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 1: and so um I also made that decision under like, 196 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 1: if if we had had the same direction that we're 197 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 1: having now, like if everybody was social distancing and needing 198 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:30,439 Speaker 1: to stay six ft away from other people and all 199 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: that stuff, we would not have gone on the trip. 200 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 1: Um if the state of things on the day we 201 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 1: got back had been in place a week earlier, we 202 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 1: wouldn't have gone, and a lot of people that I 203 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,439 Speaker 1: know wouldn't have gone. But it wasn't and everything seemed 204 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: a lot more manageable when we got on there, and honestly, 205 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 1: we felt I heard this among so many people who 206 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 1: were on that trip with us. We felt a lot 207 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: safer on the cruise ship, where everyone we ran into 208 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 1: was making a determined effort to wash hands and stay 209 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: away for or like not touch other people, like not 210 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:05,959 Speaker 1: get into people's personal space, and to try to keep 211 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: everybody on boards even healthy. We felt so much safer 212 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: in that environment than we did getting off the ship 213 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: and going to the Fort Lauderdale Airport where somebody in 214 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 1: Terminal three, gate F ten was coughing and coughing and 215 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 1: coughing and coughing all over their tablet and all over 216 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: their table and not even bothering to cover it. And 217 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:27,319 Speaker 1: I was like, I feel like I have just undone 218 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: the last week of care aboard the cruise ship by 219 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 1: being around this inconsiderate person who was not even covering 220 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 1: their mouth. Yeah. Um, alright, on that peppy note, We're 221 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: gonna pause for just a second. Uh, and when we 222 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,199 Speaker 1: come back, we're gonna talk a little bit more about 223 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: viewing this through the lens of history. So, Tracy, I 224 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 1: feel like the moment when I realized that this was 225 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: going to be a thing that was written about in 226 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:08,079 Speaker 1: history books is literally and it occurred to me beforehand. 227 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 1: But when I was like, there's no way this is 228 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,199 Speaker 1: not going to be a significant event that gets discussed 229 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 1: and analyzed four hundreds of years was when it was 230 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 1: declared a pandemic. But the World Health Organization, that's not 231 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: something that gets declared a whole lot on occasion. And truthfully, 232 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 1: I mean some of that is my own insulated ignorance, right, Like, 233 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: there are certainly epidemics that happen in other places, um 234 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: and outbreaks, but it is again that's sort of selfish 235 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: thing of like, ohh this is right on my doorstep, um. 236 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 1: But then when you start to look out with a 237 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: wider worldview, you realize it is on everyone's doorstep, especially 238 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: because this is so highly contagious and one of those 239 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: things that people can be passing very very easily without 240 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 1: showing any symptoms. Just one of the reasons that I 241 00:13:56,040 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 1: mentioned that in our pet and co for episode, that 242 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: was something that that was being established as a real 243 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: thing about contagion when he was working and I, of 244 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: course you I wrote our episode on the influenza, so 245 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:18,839 Speaker 1: you have studied that. But it is one of those 246 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: things where I think we can't help ourselves, and I'm 247 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 1: sure anyone else who studies history, who is a professional 248 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: historian cannot help. But consider what this is going to 249 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: look like in the future. Yeah. I know a lot 250 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: of people are really reluctant to try to make predictions 251 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: based on the past, but it's like there are also 252 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: parallels that we can see in the past versus things 253 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: that are happening right now for sure. It's so we 254 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: are going to have that eighteen flu episode as a 255 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: Saturday Classic. UM. I haven't really listened to it in 256 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: a while, and I just sort of skimmed through the 257 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: outline and it was one of those things that I 258 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 1: looked at and I was like, Wow, if we were 259 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: recording this episode now, there are various things, um that 260 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: like might have been approached differently, because I know I 261 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: One of the things that you sort of see floating 262 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: around on Facebook and Twitter and whatever is people who 263 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: feel like everyone is overreacting, um and saying things like like, 264 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighteen flu killed, however, many millions of people 265 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: and this is not that, and it's like, well, okay. Also, 266 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighteen flu lasted well into nineteen nineteen. We're 267 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: only a couple of months into all this, Like, you 268 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: can't really compare what's happening in this moment to what 269 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 1: happened well over a year into a totally different pandemic. 270 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: But at the same time, there were lots of communities 271 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighteen who were doing things like canceling public 272 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: gatherings and trying to adjust public transit schedules so that 273 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: they wouldn't be as crowded and like similar steps to 274 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: some of the things that are happening right now. UM. 275 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: And so I've seen more things recently about like how 276 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 1: cities that canceled all their public events faired the nineteen 277 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: eighteen flu versus ones that didn't. Uh. Yeah, I mean 278 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: I think those are pretty predictable. UM. Probably data sets, right, 279 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: like lower incidents of contagion when people are not exposing 280 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: themselves to everything. UM. I recently, as you know, did 281 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: a ted X at Emory University, and the whole premise 282 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 1: of it was that we are often in many ways 283 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 1: reliving things in history that are reliving things that are 284 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: very similar to what has gone before in history. And 285 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: in that case, I use several examples. UM. I talked 286 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 1: a little bit about the butter versus margarine thing and 287 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: how in some ways that is similar to what you 288 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: and I have talked about, uh, with the beef industry 289 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: today being very chagrined about sort of the the evolution 290 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: of plant based meat substitutes that are getting more and 291 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: more like beef, and so they're similar litigation type issues 292 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 1: going on UM, as well as a couple of other 293 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 1: historical examples and My whole premise was that if we're 294 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:14,120 Speaker 1: cognizant of the fact that we are living through things 295 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: that will be viewed by future historians, we might become 296 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 1: a little bit more thoughtful about our choices and about 297 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 1: these little sort of messages that we're sending to the 298 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: future about how people live today and how they they 299 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: chose to handle things, and whether or not they looked 300 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 1: back and learned from history rather than just forging ahead 301 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: without thinking about things in that way. Uh, that all 302 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:43,360 Speaker 1: happened before this. Um. That talk was at the very 303 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 1: beginning of February, So the coronavirus existed, but was not 304 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 1: at this level. I think at that point there was 305 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: still probably a perception among the a lot of the 306 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 1: American public. I don't want to presume on anybody's um behalf, 307 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: but that this was going to be a thing. We knew. 308 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 1: It was already affecting China very heavily, and Italy to 309 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: a degree I think had started to hit the the 310 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,679 Speaker 1: statistics in the news. But I think there was a 311 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: perception that, like this is happening in those places, it 312 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 1: will peter out before it gets here. Yeah, And I think, 313 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,400 Speaker 1: um some of that perception may have been fueled. I mean, 314 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: some of it's probably wishful thinking, and some of it 315 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 1: is just not being connected and tuned into what all 316 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 1: was happening. UM. But I think it might have also 317 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: been fueled by other epidemics, not pandemics, that have happened 318 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 1: within people's memory, like stars or ibola, that were um 319 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 1: really uh like like emphasized in the news, and that 320 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: in some places people got really panicky about, and then 321 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 1: those did not blossom into global pandemic in part or 322 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 1: like in some cases it's because like the way the 323 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 1: disease spread did not turn out to be as as 324 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: contagious as was expected or or whatever. But in a 325 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 1: lot of cases it's because medical professionals and communities took 326 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: steps to stop the spread of the thing. Like we 327 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 1: took actual steps to stop all of these diseases, and 328 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 1: and that kept them from becoming pandemics. And one of 329 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,640 Speaker 1: the points that I've seen made um over and over 330 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 1: and in this particular pandemic that we're living in, is 331 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: that when you take the kind of steps that are 332 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 1: necessary to stop the spread of a disease like this, 333 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: the goal is the disease doesn't spread, and you save 334 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: a lot of people's lives. But the way it will 335 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: be interpreted is they said this was going to be 336 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: a nightmare, and it wasn't a nightmare. Obviously everyone overreacted. Um, 337 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:56,919 Speaker 1: it's not really that everyone overreacted. It's that the correct 338 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,239 Speaker 1: steps were taken to stop the thing, and we stopped it. 339 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 1: It's that they reacted appropriately. Yeah. And then also, honestly, 340 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: I'd rather overreact have it not turned out to be 341 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: uh as much of an issue then not react and 342 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 1: have it have a death toll in the millions. Yeah. 343 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: I feel like it is one of those things where 344 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 1: we have all seen the footage of the people on 345 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: spring Break being foolish. Uh. There is also that perception 346 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 1: of and I wish I could time travel a little 347 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:33,199 Speaker 1: bit and see how this will be written about by 348 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 1: future historians. There is that perception among a lot of 349 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: people of only old people and young people and the infirm. 350 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 1: So I'm fine. One, that's kind of sucky because you're 351 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 1: saying that those the elderly and people with pre existing 352 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 1: conditions are not worth worrying about. And two, that's not 353 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: the case at all. We're seeing more and more instances 354 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: of people who appeared perfectly healthy who do not survive this. So, 355 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,680 Speaker 1: I mean, my I don't know that I would say 356 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 1: it's a fear, but I have to sort of shake 357 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:09,959 Speaker 1: my head and be a little chagrined that there are 358 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,159 Speaker 1: going to be a lot of reports in the future 359 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:16,360 Speaker 1: of how very foolish we were on mass. Yeah. Well, 360 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: and that's where, UM, some of the historical parallels that 361 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: come up for me in all this. I mean, there's 362 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 1: the obvious parallel of previous pandemics, but then there are 363 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 1: also things like the Great Famine in Ireland and how 364 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: one of the reasons that the Great Famine in our 365 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: Ireland was so bad was that UM, Parliament took this 366 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:42,160 Speaker 1: very lacey, fair attitude towards the whole thing, and rather 367 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: than taking steps that could have saved people's lives, it 368 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: was more like those aren't the people that matter though, UM, 369 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,880 Speaker 1: And some of the stuff that has been going around 370 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,640 Speaker 1: among politicians here in the US as of when we're 371 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:01,359 Speaker 1: recording this, which is March at ten thirty seven in 372 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 1: the morning, UM has a similar tone, so like, well, 373 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 1: the people that matter will be okay, and uh that's 374 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:15,959 Speaker 1: not okay. Uh. Yeah, I mean there is this growing 375 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,719 Speaker 1: discussion right now about whether or not it is more 376 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 1: important to save the economy by kind of letting this 377 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 1: thing run its course and potentially kill off a lot 378 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: of people so we can get businesses back up and running, which, um, 379 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 1: to me, is very troubling. There are clearly some people 380 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:37,120 Speaker 1: who support that line of thought right well, apart from 381 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: the moral implication of that, We've also seen in previous pandemics, 382 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 1: like with the Black Death in in Europe which killed 383 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 1: such a huge proportion of the population that economic effects 384 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 1: of that afterward we're devastating. It was like, there wasn't 385 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:56,120 Speaker 1: enough labor to bring in the harvest. And if there's 386 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 1: not enough labor to bring in the harvest, like people 387 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: are not eating and so um. We actually got a 388 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: question about that one time. We made a comment about 389 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: the labor shortage after the Black Death, and someone was like, 390 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: I don't understand how that works, Like if there weren't 391 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: as many people to feed, you don't need as many crops. 392 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 1: And it's like, well, sure, but if if you don't 393 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,160 Speaker 1: have enough people to harvest the crops, it doesn't matter 394 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: that there are fewer people to feed, the crops are 395 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 1: not coming in. Yeah. Uh, we are going to pause 396 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,959 Speaker 1: once again and have a little sponsor break, and then 397 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: we will come back and conclude our discussion about living 398 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: through history. Tracy, you had mentioned to me that one 399 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: of the things that you were thinking about in the 400 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:46,479 Speaker 1: context of this discussion was um other historical events that 401 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 1: we have lived through in our lives that we recognize 402 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,120 Speaker 1: now are historical events and perhaps did at the time, 403 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 1: but that this feels a little bit different. Yeah, That's 404 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: something that I've seen a lot of people say on 405 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: Twitter or otherwise express in some way that people sort 406 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 1: of are like, I suddenly feel like I'm living through history. 407 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: I'm living through a thing that's going to be in 408 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: history books. And I was thinking about, like other times 409 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: in my life that I have felt like I'm witnessing 410 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:18,400 Speaker 1: a historical moment, and it's like my very youngest political 411 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 1: or historical memory. I have a vague, vague memory of 412 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan being elected president, and then I also have 413 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 1: a very shady early memory of the assassination attempt on 414 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,159 Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan, and then I have very clear and vivid 415 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:41,159 Speaker 1: memories of um like the Chernobyl and Challenger disasters. In 416 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:46,879 Speaker 1: six I sort of have the general sense of living 417 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,160 Speaker 1: through the end of the Cold War in the eighties. 418 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: It's like a lot of things that are more specific 419 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 1: moments in history, like obviously nine eleven and the dot 420 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 1: com bubble collapse in the housing crisis um that started 421 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: here in the US in two thousand and eight. Like 422 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:08,160 Speaker 1: all of these things, wars that even if I knew 423 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 1: someone was serving in also felt kind of far away 424 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: from me. So a lot of stuff that felt like 425 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,880 Speaker 1: either isolated or something that felt removed from me in 426 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:23,919 Speaker 1: some way. But this pandemic more feels like a global 427 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: thing that is uh involving much of the world, and 428 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 1: I feel like it's going to involve the whole world 429 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 1: for a prolonged time that I am living through, rather 430 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: than something I'm kind of witnessing that's not directly touching me. Yeah. Plus, 431 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: we really have no sense of the timeline, no right, um, 432 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 1: And that that's the thing that has has looped around. 433 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 1: When I have talked to people about the nineteen eighteen 434 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,439 Speaker 1: flu is like we know how bad that was because 435 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: the end happened and we have all the data. Yeah, yeah, 436 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,880 Speaker 1: we're not at the end of of what's happening now. Um. 437 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 1: I also have really felt extraordinarily fortunate through all of this. 438 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,880 Speaker 1: I mean, number one, you and I have jobs that 439 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: I was already working at home, and you and our producer, 440 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 1: Casey were able to pivot to working at home really quickly, 441 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,680 Speaker 1: and so we're incredibly lucky in that way. My mom's 442 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: parents grew up during the Great Depression, and I remember 443 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 1: my grandmother telling stories about when she was a kid 444 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: and not having any toys to play with, so she 445 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:37,159 Speaker 1: was playing, um with like a stick or whatever like that. 446 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 1: Actually might be my other grandparents who grew up on 447 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,119 Speaker 1: a tobacco farm and played with tobacco sticks like they 448 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: were hobby horses or or things like that. But um, like, 449 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 1: I heard a lot of stories from my grandparents about 450 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 1: about living in the Great Depression and growing up in 451 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 1: the Great Depression and having just a scarcity because in 452 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,239 Speaker 1: addition to the fact that my grandmother was growing up 453 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 1: during the Great Depression, she was a preacher's daughter, so 454 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 1: the family already didn't have a ton of money before 455 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: the Great Depression even started. Um. My dad's dad served 456 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 1: in World War Two and Korea and was deployed when 457 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 1: my dad was really little, and that was one of 458 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: the things that influenced my parents decision uh not to 459 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: wait after they got married to have children until my 460 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:23,640 Speaker 1: dad was um out of the army because they got 461 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,119 Speaker 1: married during the Vietnam War. And so by comparison to 462 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 1: all of that, like, my life has been incredibly easy. 463 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: And I know that there have been times, especially in 464 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 1: my younger life, when we had to be really frugal, 465 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,439 Speaker 1: um because money was tight around our house, but we 466 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,400 Speaker 1: still had food and we had a roof over our head, 467 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 1: and IM like I had a stable family that was 468 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 1: invested in my brothers and my well being. Um. So 469 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: the fact that for me personally this seems so different 470 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: from all of that, I feel like I've been extraordinarily lucky. Yeah, 471 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: did know. I I have noticed a number of people 472 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 1: talking about the people that are handling this quite well, 473 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 1: of which I would kind of count myself. I would 474 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,159 Speaker 1: just not to say that I am not keenly aware 475 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 1: of the risk and danger of the time we're living in. 476 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: But like, isolation is totally fine by me, um, which 477 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,640 Speaker 1: shocks me because I am very extroverted. But I'm having 478 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 1: a delightful time at home. It's interesting because people um 479 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: that have this has come up on social media. I 480 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 1: have also been talking to my therapist about it. People 481 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 1: that grew up in more chaotic homes tend to be 482 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: able to ride this out a little bit more easily 483 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 1: without as much, you know, mental and emotional stress, because 484 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 1: they're a little bit used to it. I have said 485 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: on the show. Before my dad's career Air Force, he 486 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 1: was one of those people that would sometimes just vanish 487 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: for long periods of time, Like he would wake me 488 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 1: up in the night and be like, I'm leaving and 489 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 1: I can't tell you where I'm going, but I love you, 490 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: and I don't know what I'm coming back and by um. 491 00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: So there's part of me that's just very used to 492 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: instant ability and like not knowing what the future holds, 493 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: which has been in some ways, little did I know 494 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: it was preparing me for this. It certainly made me 495 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: a very independent person, which has served me very well 496 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 1: at numerous points in the curve. But this is an 497 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 1: interesting thing in that, I think because even for those 498 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: of us, like you said, that have lived through these 499 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: other significant moments, I very clearly remember the Challenger disaster 500 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: as well as Reagan's assassination attempt because I thought my 501 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 1: brother was lying to me when I walked in the 502 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: door from school and he told me that happened. I 503 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 1: was like, you're a liar, um, because I was a 504 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: snooty nine year old who thought my much older brother 505 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: was stupid. Um. But one in a lot of those cases, 506 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: those were like events that happened. They may have been 507 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 1: a shock, but we started to move into the the 508 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: recovery of it pretty quickly, or as you said, they 509 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 1: were at enough of a distance that we were processing 510 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: it without the immediacy. This has been a phase where 511 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 1: seeing how people in my life are dealing with it 512 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 1: has been enlightening and sometimes more upsetting than my own experience. 513 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 1: You know, Like I I will not out anybody's stories, 514 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: but I have had numerous friends who have reached out 515 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 1: and said, like, I think I am having a panic attack. 516 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 1: I'm very upset. I might be having a heart attack. 517 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: I'm not sure. And and I have literally had that 518 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 1: from three different people, one of whom is so completely 519 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 1: relaxed at all times that knowing she was upset was 520 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: more upsetting to me than anything I was feeling. And 521 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 1: I think this is not uncommon. Right, we are going 522 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 1: to be dealing with this emotionally as an experienced group 523 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: trauma for a long time. Neither of us has children, 524 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,960 Speaker 1: but like, one of the things that my friends who 525 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: are parents have talked about is how hard it is 526 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: to explain to their kids, like no, you can't go 527 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 1: hug your friend across the street. No you can't. And 528 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: there some of these kids, especially if they're in a 529 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 1: one child household, are feeling lonely about it. Like there, 530 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: they're used to social internet, that's an important part of 531 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: child development. And so I think we'll be sorting out 532 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 1: what this has really done to the globe socially for 533 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 1: a long time. Yeah. I similarly, like my my parents, 534 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 1: we're already really isolated before this started, um, because the 535 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 1: world is not accessible to my mom. Basically, it's really 536 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: hard for them to get out of the house and 537 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 1: do anything. And then um, as is the case with 538 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 1: a lot of people who get older and are mostly 539 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 1: in their homes, like there, their peer group also getting 540 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: older mostly in their homes, Like they don't get as 541 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 1: many visitors as they used to. So I had this 542 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 1: whole conversation with my dad about my mom's sisters wanting 543 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 1: to come visit her, and my dad and me both 544 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 1: feeling like that was not a great idea and trying 545 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 1: to figure out how to protect everybody involved if they 546 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 1: did make this visit. I like, at the same time, 547 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 1: I recognize that having that kind of conversation is uh, 548 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 1: not nearly as dire as a lot of the other 549 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: conversations I've seen people having to have about like not 550 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 1: knowing what's going to happen to their paycheck and whether 551 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 1: they're going to be able to pay the rent and 552 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: buy groceries, and um, whether the company they work for 553 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 1: is going to be able to weather this and all 554 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: kinds of other stuff. Um. So it's it's one of 555 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 1: those things where simultaneously I feel like I have been 556 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: incredibly lucky, like I said earlier, to be in a 557 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: place where I can mostly make this work, and I 558 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: my heart goes out to the folks who are in 559 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: so much of a bigger struggle and so much more 560 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 1: risk than I am. Um. One of my friends is 561 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: a nurse, and I am worried about her every day. Um, 562 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: And it's it's one of those things where where I 563 00:32:55,840 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 1: don't I don't know what's going to happen with that. Yeah, yeah, 564 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 1: I think instead of doing a listener mail on this 565 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 1: and one of the things that I wanted to really, really, 566 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: I'm not an expert and I'm not the first person 567 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: you will hear this from. UM, but make a note 568 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: one to thank all of the people who are deemed 569 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 1: essential and can't stay home, like medical professionals who are 570 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: at great risk every single day, mail carriers, the people 571 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: who are running take out, the people who are delivering groceries, 572 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 1: the people who are stocking shelves in grocery stores, the 573 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: sanitation workers, utility workers, and there are so many people 574 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 1: that are out there doing their jobs in very dangerous times. UM, 575 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 1: please be nice to them. Uh if you if you 576 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: can do something nice for them, great. That's tricky I 577 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: know to figure out. UM. One of the things we 578 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 1: had done, we ordered a bunch of cookies from a 579 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 1: bakery that was going to have some problems as they 580 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: had stocked up and could not do an event. And 581 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 1: they come in little packs of three. They're sealed from 582 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 1: the bakery, and so we have tried to give those 583 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,839 Speaker 1: out to like our mail carrier and and FedEx drivers, etcetera. 584 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,479 Speaker 1: If they will take them. It is not enough. It's 585 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 1: like a tiny, tiny gesture. UM, I hope we figure 586 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 1: out a way to do more, including everyone revisiting how 587 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 1: those people get paid, because a lot of times those 588 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,800 Speaker 1: are not high highly paid positions, but those are the 589 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,440 Speaker 1: people that we are realizing are essential just to keep 590 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,920 Speaker 1: our daily lives running. The other thing that I just 591 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 1: want to make sure people do is to it sounds 592 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,800 Speaker 1: very hippy dippy, but be gentle with yourself. None of 593 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 1: us really know how we will react day to day, 594 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 1: because some days you wake up and it's very sad 595 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,360 Speaker 1: and upsetting, and other days you wake up feeling fine, 596 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: and that almost feels guilty. It's tricky. Yeah. One of 597 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,400 Speaker 1: the things that I've noticed UM next Door for my 598 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:05,879 Speaker 1: neighborhood has been blessedly low on racism in the time 599 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:12,280 Speaker 1: that I've been part of UM, but very vocal about 600 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 1: people not picking up after their dogs. Um. I get it. 601 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 1: But suddenly the months long conversation about the dog poop 602 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,440 Speaker 1: has been replaced with people saying I'm healthy and have 603 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:31,720 Speaker 1: a car. If you need groceries, call me UM, which 604 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,279 Speaker 1: I applaud in respect. I am on I think day 605 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 1: ten of this, like fourteen days of intentionally isolating ourselves 606 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,400 Speaker 1: after getting off of a cruise ship. So after we 607 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,239 Speaker 1: get to the end of that fourteen days, I think 608 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 1: my my, my spouse and I will be talking about Okay, 609 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,280 Speaker 1: what what should we do now? Um? We've been banking 610 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,880 Speaker 1: donations and things, but like, is there something else we 611 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: can and should be doing when we feel like we 612 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:02,880 Speaker 1: we are less of a potential risk to other people? UM, 613 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,280 Speaker 1: So we'll see. I also want to thank our listeners. 614 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,879 Speaker 1: We recently put out a playlist of of sort of 615 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: episodes to maybe lighten the mood and make the time 616 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,319 Speaker 1: pass a little faster um. And I was a little 617 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 1: nervous about doing that because I know that when folks 618 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 1: have something that changes in their podcast feed, it can 619 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: be a big deal. Um. And overwhelmingly folks have been 620 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,880 Speaker 1: so gracious and so kind um and have checked in 621 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 1: on us and ask us how we are doing. UM. 622 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 1: And I just wanted to thank everybody for that, Yes absolutely, 623 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 1: and also just for you know, listening and being with 624 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,360 Speaker 1: us over the years since sticking with us through this weird, 625 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 1: weird time UM. And I, like I said, be gentle 626 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,279 Speaker 1: with yourself and others as much as you can and 627 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,239 Speaker 1: just recognize it. We're all in this together. And I 628 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 1: hope that everyone who hears this is safe and sound 629 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 1: and makes it through as unscathed as possible. As you said, 630 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 1: we speak from a very very fortunate position since our jobs, 631 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 1: even within like the entertainment industry and media, we are 632 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,479 Speaker 1: in a position of great fortune because we can keep going, 633 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,239 Speaker 1: whereas like people that work in film and television have 634 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 1: had to shut down. UM. So for everyone listening to this, 635 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:22,520 Speaker 1: know that we are very grateful for the position we 636 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:24,440 Speaker 1: are in. We are very grateful for you, and we 637 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 1: hope you are very very safe, um, and that you're 638 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 1: taking care of yourself, uh, you know, helping others if 639 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: you can, and if you can't, that's fine. Just get 640 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:35,920 Speaker 1: through and meet us on the other side and we'll 641 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 1: have a huge party somewhere. That's my big plan. I'm 642 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,040 Speaker 1: planning the after parties right now. That's like part of 643 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:44,440 Speaker 1: a mental health thing for me, where I'm like, oh, 644 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,439 Speaker 1: the outfits I'm going to wear to these huge, huge celebrations. Yeah. 645 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 1: Over once it's safe for us to be within six 646 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: speed of each other, Yes, it's going to be a blast. 647 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 1: I really do. Again, want to just reiterate our thanks 648 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 1: and that we hope you stay safe and we will 649 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:08,600 Speaker 1: all get through this together one way or Another stuff 650 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:10,600 Speaker 1: you missed in history class is a production of I 651 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 1: heart Radio. For more podcasts from i heart Radio, visit 652 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,439 Speaker 1: the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 653 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:18,480 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.