WEBVTT - Really Big Nerds with Jen Cooper and Richard Cohen 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:03.000 Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're still 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:06.120 loving life in America's hat, We're knee deep and poutine 0:00:06.160 --> 0:00:08.840 and Tim Horton's and the only Orange Monarchs in sight 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:12.880 are the butterflies in our hotel garden. It's Thursday, June nineteenth, 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:15.640 Happy June teenth. On today's show, we'll be chatting with 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:19.600 women's soccer statistician and historian Jen Cooper and her Hoopstats 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:22.680 contributor Richard Cohen about the behind the scenes work that 0:00:22.760 --> 0:00:26.479 goes into keeping track of records, rules, stats and salary 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:30.680 caps in the WNBA and NWSL. Plus a cap worthy 0:00:30.760 --> 0:00:34.120 claim to fame, expert tips on spread and sheets, and 0:00:34.159 --> 0:00:36.239 a record that might not ever need updating. 0:00:36.479 --> 0:00:43.480 It's all coming up right after this joining us now. 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:45.680 She's a researcher for the World Cup in the Olympics 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:48.440 and the official historian for the NWSL. She's the keeper 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:51.840 of keeper Notes, the only place NWSL fans can find 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:55.040 comprehensive statistics and records for every year of the league's history, 0:00:55.320 --> 0:00:58.520 and she runs wo so Nostalgia, a YouTube channel featuring 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:00.640 a bunch of games from things like w USA and 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:03.280 conk CAF. She can tell you how many NWSL keepers 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:06.160 have recorded five hundred or more saves, It's five. The 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:08.280 number of players who have scored four goals in a 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:11.520 single game, it's three. And how many regular season minutes 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:14.200 Abbi dal Kemper has played in her NWSL career so far. 0:01:14.360 --> 0:01:18.240 It's thirteen, three hundred and thirty seven. It's Jen Cooper, Hi, Jen. 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:22.040 Hey, Sarah, I am so impressed with your stats. Well, 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:25.000 I'm great with yours. You can take my job. 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:29.800 Also joining us, He's a contributor to Her Hoopstats and 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:32.640 the Her Hoop Stats podcast. The man behind the now 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:37.000 defunct website WNBA leen dot com, an independent site that 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:39.840 covered women's professional basketball across the globe. He's a must 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:42.840 follow on Blue Sky for all his live WNBA game commentary. 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:45.600 Everything he says sounds smarter because of his accent. We 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:48.040 go out now to London for Richard Cohen. 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:51.040 Hi, Richard, Hi, Sarah, And yeah, I wondered how you 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:53.200 were going to follow that intro for Jane. I don't 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:56.360 think I have quite quite the same level of qualifications, 0:01:56.400 --> 0:01:58.400 but I'll try to use the accent to make it 0:01:58.440 --> 0:01:58.920 sound better. 0:01:59.280 --> 0:01:59.760 That's right. 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:02.520 Honestly, I would say that British people can account for 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:05.400 so many shortcomings just by using that accent. 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:07.800 In America, we barely notice anything else. 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:12.400 You both have tremendous backgrounds, and you both offer a 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:14.920 lot to a space that oftentimes is lacking in that 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:17.840 statistics and record keeping in women's sports. So that's why 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:19.960 you're here. I want to talk about that. Jen, Can 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:23.640 you explain how you got interested in the. 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:25.320 Record keeping in stats side of soccer. 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:30.639 Well, I've always been kind of into archives. I think 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:32.880 that's why I was a yearbook editor in high school 0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:37.040 and in college and just liked tracking things like looking 0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:40.400 at the history, and so that was already in me 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:44.200 when you know, the soccer bug got me first in 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:46.440 ninety four and then of course in ninety nine and 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:50.720 really exploded with the birth of the WSA. But it 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:54.119 really wasn't until about ten years later when the US 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:56.440 women were playing in Houston, you know where I'm based, 0:02:56.600 --> 0:02:59.960 and I was just curious about like, how big you know, 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:02.360 so this was a good crowd, how big is this 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:05.959 relative to previous games? And I started building this spreadsheet 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:08.320 and I just kept going over the years because I 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:11.120 was like, oh, how many times have they done this? 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:13.280 When this has happened. Oh well, I need to add 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:14.720 a new column to this spreadsheet. 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:16.519 How about this, you know? 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:19.800 And then when the Dash came to town, I was lucky 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:23.320 enough to be the analyst for the first three seasons 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:25.720 when all the games were live and free on YouTube. 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:29.200 And you know, since the league started really small and 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:31.800 started very quickly, you know, didn't have a lot of resources, 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:35.120 so there wasn't a lot of stats that the league 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:38.080 could give give me in the in the play by 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:42.600 play announcer. But so I started tracking. I was like, well, 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:46.240 I'll start you know, digging up you know, info for myself, 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:49.800 and it just it kept going and going, and I 0:03:49.880 --> 0:03:52.240 had a lot of friends in Houston that said, you know, 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:54.920 this is really interesting stuff. Why don't you put this 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:58.720 together in something for fans. And so in twenty sixteen, 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:03.120 that's when I started publishing the Keeper Notes Almanac that 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:06.000 had all the NWSL data, and I've just built it 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:08.640 over the year, started actually printing it in twenty eighteen. 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:12.200 First it was just PDF and it remains a labor 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:14.800 of love. It is not something that you know. 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:18.000 Why but why in the labor of love, Because listen, 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:20.640 I'm listening to you talk and I'm thinking it's short 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:23.240 sighted of the NWSL when they started to not immediately 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:25.520 have someone in that job with the belief that their 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:28.000 league would last and it'd be worth keeping track of things. 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:30.520 But knowing that they didn't do that, now they've got 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:32.960 someone on the job who's offering it up, So why 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:33.919 not hire you for that? 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:35.960 Well, they did, they did. 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:38.919 They had a stat service in the beginning, They didn't 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:41.800 have the funds in the very beginning to have a 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:44.960 lot of stuff that's available now. This stuff wasn't available 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:48.560 ten years ago period in terms of the elaborate analytical 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:52.359 stats and the coverage. So what I was doing. What 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:54.880 I was doing was compiling. I don't want to diss 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:56.760 the Andy Russell and say people they didn't do it. 0:04:56.800 --> 0:04:59.679 They were doing it. They just you know, that league 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:04.559 started so quickly, so suddenly. But what was great once 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:08.039 twenty seventeen came around and you had A and E 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:11.440 get into the league, that's when boom, like they hired 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:15.240 a real stat service, right, and a much better website 0:05:15.680 --> 0:05:18.799 and all these things. And we're seeing that progress now 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:23.840 where I come in is really filling in those holes 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:28.400 of those first three seasons that aren't on the same bandwidth, 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:31.240 and it's very similar to all the tracking that I've 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:35.159 done with US Soccer that there's really good records going 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:37.600 back to the Olympics in ninety six, right, but that 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:43.240 first decade, especially because it's basically pre Internet, right, you know, 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:46.440 and we forget that before the ninety four World Cup, 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:50.520 US Soccer did not have money. So it's not like 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:52.600 there's a lot of great men's records and no women's record. 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:55.640 It's just the records are just really a spotty. 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:58.800 So it starts out as a passion project. And now 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:00.840 it's sort of a job. You do the work independently, 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:02.720 but you also work for several outlets. 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:04.440 So who do you work for now? And where have 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:06.559 you worked in the past where you've sort of held 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:07.880 this statistician role. 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:11.560 Let's see, I haven't had a statistician, a paid statistician 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:14.919 role before this, but for a long time I was 0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:18.360 the like the main stat person for my alma mater 0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:23.359 for this annual event called beer Bikes, which you just 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:26.720 you just have to google, but it's it's a relay 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:29.400 erase where somebody chugs and then somebody rides a bike, 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:33.000 and I was I was the keeper of all of 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:36.240 you know, who won, what year, how many people had streaks, what, 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:38.800 what were the records? And so I did that for 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:42.679 a long time. So my background is actually graphic design. 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:44.880 So you're not. 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:47.200 Working for Anny Networks now in that capacity, you're just 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:48.599 doing your website stuff. 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:52.680 So I'm a contractor, uh for for Andy Broussel, you know, 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:57.840 year round, mostly helping broadcast, right, so so that all 0:06:57.839 --> 0:07:00.800 the notes are ready, so all clubs if they have 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:03.839 a question, especially the older clubs that have so much data, 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:06.200 it's like, wait, is this the first time we've done this, 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:09.360 Like no, this happened in twenty fourteen, you know. And 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:11.239 I have a couple of great people helping me out, 0:07:11.360 --> 0:07:13.040 you know, on the stuff, because it's just going to 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:15.320 get bigger and bigger, right, we got two more teams 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:18.120 coming next year. I also work on occasion as a 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:21.160 contractor when there's a big event, right. So I went 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:25.400 to France last summer to work the Olympics, following the 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:28.160 US team around. Basically I was the stat person in 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:31.520 the booth for John Champion and Julie Foudy as they 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:34.200 were calling James right, you know. And I have to 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:37.720 give props to Julie for dragging me along to France 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:41.840 because the previous Olympics I was in the NBC headquarters 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:44.120 in Connecticut while the Olympics are. 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:46.800 In Why am I not surprised that Foudy made sure 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:49.840 to lift and take along with her, including to France. 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:52.760 Shee's like, next time you're coming with me? 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:55.360 Yeah, yeah, And then and then next month I will 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:59.960 be in La supporting the studio show for Fox's covered 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:02.680 of the Women's euro Right. So it's like it's that 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:06.880 thing as we've all seen in many different kinds of jobs, 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:10.280 like once you're known, then everybody is like, oh, well, 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:11.800 we need to use. 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:14.120 So and so well, especially in a space where there 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:16.360 aren't a ton of people doing it. And that's part 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:19.160 of the issue across women's sports space, and Richard, her 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:22.520 hoopstats is filling a hole in the women's basketball space. 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:25.760 That's very similar. I remember distinctly a piece from Sue 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:29.440 Bird in the Player's Tribune begging for more advanced statistics 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:31.600 for the WNBA so that we could have debates about 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:33.840 who's the best at corner threes and things like that, 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:36.800 and her Hoopstats offers a lot. So can you explain 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:38.760 for those who aren't familiar what the site is and 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:39.840 the work that you do for them. 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:44.040 Well, the site is sort of an effort to make 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:48.240 advanced stats available about the women's game that weren't really 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:51.440 there until we started up in twenty seventeen. I wasn't 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:54.760 there in twenty seventeen, but when Aaron Buzzilai, our founder 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:58.640 and who still runs the place, started the website because 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:01.199 he used to work it as the director of analytics 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:04.040 for the seventy six ers in Philadelphia and before that 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:06.280 with the Grizzlies, and a friend of his came to 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:10.800 him and said the friend was working with Tennessee with 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:13.520 the Lady Vols and said, I'm used to having all 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:16.520 of these statistics at my fingertips from the men's game. 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:19.800 Is there anywhere that does this for the women? And 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:24.600 Aaron looked around and said, no, there isn't and that 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:28.760 led to him essentially making up her hoopstats. And Yeah, 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:31.360 when I was talking to him in preparation for this recording, 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:35.560 he mentioned that same bird article as something that he 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:38.079 went back to and was surprised no one had done 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:41.480 anything in response to that. Even when she said that, 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:45.320 there was very little reaction to it. So, yeah, her 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:47.840 Hoopstats was sort of to try and create something like 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:52.280 a sports basketball reference for the women's game. And yeah, 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:54.719 it's been a steadily growing effort since then. It sort 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:57.120 of started as a as just a stat site and 0:09:57.120 --> 0:09:59.800 a social media presence, and then since then, people like 0:09:59.840 --> 0:10:05.640 me you've come along and it's added articles, podcasts, and 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:07.360 a lot of extra stuff, all of our work on 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:11.040 the CBA and the salary cap, information that you can't 0:10:11.120 --> 0:10:13.800 get anywhere else except from the people that copy us. 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:17.040 Not exactly people like you, though, because Richard, I want 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:20.079 to know how someone like you gets into the WNBA 0:10:20.200 --> 0:10:21.240 from across the pond. 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:24.079 Yeah, I get that question quite a lot, as you 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:27.360 might imagine, and I don't have a great answer for it. 0:10:29.040 --> 0:10:31.560 The tournament I mentioned is this thing we used to 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:33.800 have over here because basketball isn't big in the UK, 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:36.200 but there used to be a tournament called the WYICB 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:41.520 which was held over New Years each each year, and 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:46.359 they played men's basketball, women's basketball, juniors, and wheelchair basketball 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:48.440 all in the same tournament, all on the same court, 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:50.240 one after the other, going from one to the other. 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:52.960 And I think that was part of sort of ingraining 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:56.520 in me that it was all the same that like 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:59.120 one wasn't the proper version of the sport, and one 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:02.439 was this sort of other that you didn't have to 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:05.800 pay attention to. So that meant when the WNBA started 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:09.679 up in the late nineties, I was interested and yeah 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:12.920 started following it. Then there was a gap there because 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:15.480 we were sort of pre streaming, so it was very 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:19.079 difficult to follow given that I wasn't in the US right. 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:21.840 But once that advanced a bit and it was actually 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:25.200 possible to follow the game and get back I got 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:28.040 back into it sort of in the mid two thousands, 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:30.600 and Yeah. From there it just sort of developed from 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:35.000 a fandom into sort of posting on forums and things 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:38.080 like that, and then eventually sort of thinking, I'm posting 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:40.640 these massive comments on forums, I might as well turn 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:41.960 them into articles. 0:11:41.960 --> 0:11:44.480 Yeah, or get paid for it. Do this for my job. 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:47.719 Well, getting paid for It's still kind of difficult. A 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:51.920 lot of people trying to cover women's basketball have found 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:54.960 it's hot, still hard to make it your primary job. 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:56.160 Yeah, I love that. 0:11:56.480 --> 0:11:59.760 What's the biggest challenge you've encountered, gen when it comes 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:03.720 to trying to stat keep and track in soccer. 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:07.719 Really the biggest challenge is connecting the older stats to 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:11.600 the newer stats. Right, so we have data from twenty 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:15.880 sixteen onwards. That's that's great, right. Once once Sandy Bissel 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:18.199 made the jump with that with A and E coming 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:21.120 in as a twenty five percent investor, of course that's 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:23.800 all changed out, but that that kind of made this 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:26.959 big leap into Okay, we have a real live stat 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:29.760 service and we're going back and analyzing these things like like, 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:33.720 that was a huge step. But to connect to those 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:37.720 first three seasons twenty thirteen to fifteen has been problematic, 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:42.800 partly because those are the games where, especially that first season, 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:47.520 you know, you may only have four cameras some of 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:50.040 those some of those games just didn't. 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:52.960 It just had issues, Right, there's a whole assist that 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:56.320 just comes from offscreen, like who was it? 0:12:56.679 --> 0:12:57.400 God knows? 0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:00.840 Yeah, and so like we need to add all that 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:03.920 data to the main database. But there's going to be 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:08.200 data that we cannot get from those those games, right, 0:13:08.320 --> 0:13:10.199 just because you're you're not going to be able to. 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:11.360 See Yeah, that makes sense. 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:15.240 Now, thankfully, almost every one of those games still exists 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:17.920 in their entirety on YouTube. I thought that was one 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:21.080 of the most brilliant decisions the NWSL made early on 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:24.280 was all right, we don't have a TV deal. Games 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:27.480 are all free live on YouTube worldwide. You know that 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:31.520 that that was brilliant. But I think it's that connecting 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:35.480 that final piece to our current data that's the last 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:38.400 thing that that that's going to be a hiccup. Right, 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:40.520 Once we have that, it'll be much easier for any 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:43.000 of the older clubs to be able to do just 0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:45.520 a you know, easy query of who has the most 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:48.719 minutes for this club. You're right, because if you if 0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:50.480 you have one of the older clubs, they've got a 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:51.280 they've got. 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:55.560 To two distincts data. Yeah, Richard, what about you? 0:13:55.640 --> 0:13:58.559 Biggest challenge when it comes to stack keeping or keeping 0:13:58.600 --> 0:13:59.760 track of things in the W. 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:04.080 I think the stat keeping has gotten relatively straightforward, possibly 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:09.360 partly because basketball is more geared towards keeping stats in 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:12.319 the first place. That sort of soccer becoming a stat 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:15.679 based sport is something that's fairly new, even in like 0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:19.240 major men's leagues, never mind on the women's side. But 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:24.560 sort of the major challenges are more sort of beyond 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:26.720 the stats, sort of getting people who actually talk to 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:30.240 us talk to us about sort of information and sources 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:33.440 about rules and things like that, and getting the league 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:40.760 to tell anyone anything. Basically always been very very secretive 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:44.240 about everything, which is why half of my job, well 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:46.320 not really my job, half of what I end up 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:49.760 doing at the moment is answering questions on social media 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:53.200 when people say is this legal? What's going to happen next? 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:56.920 Because no one at the league bothers to tell anybody anything. 0:14:56.680 --> 0:14:59.320 So well, that brings me to my next question. 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:03.880 Actually, because technically WNBA salaries are private, so whenever a 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:06.360 team signs a player, there's usually a line at the 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:08.960 bottom of the press release that says, per team policy, 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:11.640 terms of the deal, we're not disclosed. But then if 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:14.160 you go log in her hoopstats just a few minutes later, 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:15.920 you can find the. 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:18.080 Details of the deal that were not disclosed. 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:20.720 They have been disclosed, and they're beautifully laid out charts 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:23.320 detailing how much each player on each team is making 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:24.640 and how long their contract is for. 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:26.120 And that's really helpful for us. 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:30.280 Can you explain how this technically private information becomes public 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:31.360 on her hoopstats? 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:34.000 I mean, I would my basic got so that would 0:15:34.040 --> 0:15:36.640 be the same way that they become public in the 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:41.400 NFL or the NBA or Major League Baseball or anything 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:45.120 like that. You talk to people, you find sources, and 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:50.000 you try to get the information out there. Fortunately, when 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:51.800 you spend as long around the league as I have 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:56.440 and you try to say intelligent things, this is a 0:15:56.440 --> 0:16:00.280 small enough community that eventually people sort of gain some 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:04.080 confidence in you and are willing to talk to you, because, yeah, 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:07.960 this is a small league and a small groups where 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:10.360 everyone kind of talks to each other. Even though it's 0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:12.680 obviously growing. I mean, we've seen a massive explosion in 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:15.240 fan interest the last few years, but in terms of 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:18.320 people who are sort of embedded within the league, this 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:21.320 is still quite a tight group of people that know 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:23.920 each other a lot and talk to each other. So, yeah, 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:28.040 we source it and then we try and put it together. Again, 0:16:28.120 --> 0:16:30.760 you need to know the rules as well, because different 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:35.600 contracts are different numbers for all sorts of weird CBA reasons. 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:38.000 So yeah, that's part of why it is better than 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:40.240 anyone who's copied us, because we actually know the rules 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:41.360 that are being followed. 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:45.200 Yeah, I mean, I think also the idea that the 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:52.360 WNBA is better off being so withholding is very antiquated. 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:54.880 There are so many discussions that fans want to have 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:57.120 about leagues, they want to play GM They want to 0:16:57.160 --> 0:16:58.840 know how much each player is making so that they 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:00.600 can argue whether should. 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:02.640 Be traded or kept or moved, or if they're pulling 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:03.040 their weight. 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:05.159 And I think we're at the point now where the 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:07.760 WNBA has to address and understand that the more information 0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:10.960 that's out there, the more conversations and debates and conflicts 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:13.399 can be discussed in a way that's really beneficial to 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:15.760 making the sport feel as valuable as some of the longer, 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:21.200 more storied brands. NWSL player salaries also are not public. 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:23.720 There is an internal database that players have access to 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:26.439 which is meant to help with contract negotiations, but no 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:28.040 one has yet made a move to make that info 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:31.280 public like it is on her hoopstats for the WNBA. 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:34.639 Do you think that NWSL could benefit from more transparency 0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:36.320 on player salaries in the same way. 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:39.440 I definitely think it could benefit. But of course, you know, 0:17:39.560 --> 0:17:43.600 the obstacle is the end of cell Players Association would 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:47.679 have to agree to make those public. Right, just just 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:49.959 the fact that the players can now see internally what 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:55.879 other players are making that's fairly recent, right, you know, 0:17:55.920 --> 0:17:59.160 it's I always feel like there's this push and pull 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:02.760 between we want these sports. I'm sure Richard feels the 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:05.639 same way about Debba. We want these sports that we 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:08.480 love and cover to be considered the same way every 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:12.640 other men's sport is out there, which comes with, well, 0:18:12.680 --> 0:18:14.879 you have the eyes looking at your salary and you 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:17.200 have people discussing every day that you had a good 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:19.520 performance or a bad performance, or you should be trade 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:22.639 or stuff like that. But you know, I've also seen, 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:25.360 you know, a lot of discussion from fans. It's like, well, 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:26.919 I don't you know, I don't think we need to 0:18:26.960 --> 0:18:29.800 do that, you know, and also the players like I 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:34.600 don't want that, right. So it's like I I want 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:38.960 the information, right, I want this to be in our 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:42.040 daily breath of Yeah they had a great game, No, 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:44.639 that was horrible because of the you know, these data 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:47.160 points and oh that player is overpaid or she needs 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:48.560 to be paid more, she needs to be traded. 0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:48.760 Right. 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:50.720 That's how sports. 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:53.800 Gets into you day in day out. That's how that's 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:58.760 why there's so many talking head shows for men's football, basketball, 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:03.040 stuff like that. The more information you have, the more discussion, 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:05.359 the more discussion there is, period. 0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:08.520 Yeah, yeah, you know, a lot of your work is 0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:11.600 accessible and free on your site, and then your stat 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:15.440 almanacs are available for purchase. But because it's your work 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:18.960 and not the league's work, most historical NWSL stats are 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:21.400 not able to be googled. For example, if I were 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:24.920 to google most NWSL career goals, something the folks who 0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:28.280 work on this podcast have done on more than one occasion. 0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:30.960 Looking for that, we discovered that the top result is 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:34.919 an NWSL news entry from twenty seventeen, so not exactly 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:37.080 the up to date info that we're looking for. There, 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:40.040 have you ever had conversations with the league about selling 0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:41.920 your work to them and making it a part of 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:45.400 the official NWSL website, therefore a part of more coveraging 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:48.480 conversation about the league therefore more likely to pop up 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:50.800 in SEO, so that when we search that it comes 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:51.280 to the top. 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:55.440 Well, I hadn't thought about it from the SEO angle, 0:19:55.840 --> 0:20:01.280 But they have all, you know, all all my data. 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:03.800 They have, you know, everything that I create for them 0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:07.280 as a contractors is available to them. And I have 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:09.960 to give their social media department a huge shout out 0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:12.520 for the work they don't in the last year and 0:20:12.640 --> 0:20:17.360 have to really highlight anytime something big happens. Right, Oh 0:20:17.400 --> 0:20:21.920 my god, that was lynn Lynn Biendelo's you know, seventy ago. Yeah, 0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:24.840 you know, it's like this was you know, this is 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:26.880 the first time this has happened, this is the youngest. 0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:29.880