WEBVTT - Assessing BITO One Year In

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<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg I Heart podcast,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm Bodanna Hirick in today for Stacy Marie Ishmael.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Wednesday in November six m h. In October, it

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<v Speaker 1>became possible for US investors to via bitcoin linked exchange

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<v Speaker 1>traded fund, also known as an e t F for

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<v Speaker 1>the very first time. Folks in other countries, including Canada,

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<v Speaker 1>had been able to access this kind of product for

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<v Speaker 1>a while, and the US was finally catching up. How

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<v Speaker 1>that turned out. My colleagues Voldanna Harrick and Katie Greifeld,

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<v Speaker 1>who recorded this episode before FDx filed for bankruptcy, explain

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<v Speaker 1>why so many people thought this launch would mark the

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<v Speaker 1>beginning of a bull market in bitcoin, and now over

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<v Speaker 1>to my colleagues. Around this time last year, the very

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<v Speaker 1>first bitcoin linked exchange traded fund debut, the pro Shares

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<v Speaker 1>Bitcoin e t F, which trades under the ticker b

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<v Speaker 1>I t O. The launch marked a milestone for the

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<v Speaker 1>digital assets industry. It opened up the opportunity for more

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<v Speaker 1>mainstream investors to dip their toes into cryptocurrencies. The et

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<v Speaker 1>F had a stellar start. It was the second most

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<v Speaker 1>heavily traded fund on record, and it gathered more than

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<v Speaker 1>one billion dollars in ousets in record time. And back

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<v Speaker 1>then bitcoin was trading it around sixty five thousand dollars

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<v Speaker 1>a coin, and retail investing in crypto was booming. But

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<v Speaker 1>in hindsight, the timing was a little bit unfortunate. Just

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<v Speaker 1>two months after its debut, Bitcoin started to crash, and

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<v Speaker 1>soon after that a collapse of crypto hedge funds and

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<v Speaker 1>stable coins helped bring its value down to twenty tho

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<v Speaker 1>dollars a coin. Joining me now is Bloomberg reporter Katie

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<v Speaker 1>gar felt. Biddo was the top Biddo. Whether it caused

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<v Speaker 1>the top is a different story, but it pretty much

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<v Speaker 1>marked the top back by popular demand is Katie Greifeld,

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<v Speaker 1>a Bloomberg reporter and one of my teammates. Katie, welcome

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<v Speaker 1>back to the show. It is a joy to be here.

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<v Speaker 1>I know that the popular demand was just you, but

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<v Speaker 1>I appreciate it nonetheless. No, actually, you and I got

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<v Speaker 1>some tweets. We got one tweet how dynamic we are together?

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<v Speaker 1>That it was one tweet and it was you, But

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<v Speaker 1>it was not How sad would that beat? Okay? So

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<v Speaker 1>I want I don't want to give us too much

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<v Speaker 1>like patting on the back too much kudos go on,

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<v Speaker 1>but I have to go on. You and I actually

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<v Speaker 1>were the reporters who broke the story about the biddo

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<v Speaker 1>launch last year. It was in October, So I want

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<v Speaker 1>you to think back to that time, set the scene

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<v Speaker 1>for us. What was the excitement like around crypto in general,

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<v Speaker 1>and then also about this idea that we were going

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<v Speaker 1>to have this Bitcoin futures e t F as asset manager.

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<v Speaker 1>Pro Shares is poised to launch the first Bitcoin futures

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<v Speaker 1>e t F battle trade under the stambole b i

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<v Speaker 1>t O. It will invest primarily in bitcoin futures contracts,

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<v Speaker 1>not it directly in bitcoin. Because halcyon days of October,

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<v Speaker 1>there was a lot of excitement around even though it

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<v Speaker 1>was not what the industry, both the crypto industry and

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<v Speaker 1>the e t F industry really wanted. The Holy grill.

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<v Speaker 1>There is a spot bitcoin e t F, but this

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<v Speaker 1>was the debut of the futures backed bitcoin e t F.

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<v Speaker 1>Pro Shares was first of the punch there. They launched

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<v Speaker 1>about a year ago and there was just a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of excitement. Sort of the bull narrative was that this

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<v Speaker 1>is going to introduce so many new investors to the

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<v Speaker 1>space because you haven't seen a strung ture like this

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<v Speaker 1>in the US before the launch of the first bitcoin

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<v Speaker 1>et f is the latest sign of crypto becoming even

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<v Speaker 1>more mainstream than it already is. So does that mean

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<v Speaker 1>it's just a matter of time before everyone has some

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<v Speaker 1>digital assets in their wallet? You do have spot bitcoin

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<v Speaker 1>ETFs in Canada, in Europe. You don't have anything like

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<v Speaker 1>that in the US. And again, it wasn't the best

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<v Speaker 1>case scenario, but there was a lot of optimism nonetheless,

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<v Speaker 1>and a lot of it panned out. At least day

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<v Speaker 1>of week, of month of I think this was one

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<v Speaker 1>of the best e t F debuts on record in

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<v Speaker 1>terms of first day volume, how quickly it got to

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<v Speaker 1>a billion dollars in a u M. But that feels

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<v Speaker 1>like a long time ago, and then the excitement around

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<v Speaker 1>that also just before we get it does feel like

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<v Speaker 1>a long time ago, because we want to talk about

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<v Speaker 1>what's going on in the present as well. But the

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<v Speaker 1>excitement around the launch also helped propel bitcoin to all

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<v Speaker 1>time highs and a bunch of other tokens all time highs. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>oh yeah, big time. I mean, I think Bitcoin's all

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<v Speaker 1>time hunt was a breath below six and one thousand

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<v Speaker 1>dollars happened at the same time as you saw this launch,

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<v Speaker 1>So it was just a time of real optimism in

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<v Speaker 1>the stock market too. It felt like risk assets of

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<v Speaker 1>every stripe were rallying all at once and Bitcoin was

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<v Speaker 1>leading the charge. There would then lead the charge to

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<v Speaker 1>the downside as well. But again, what a fun time

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<v Speaker 1>we had. It was God, So can you set the

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<v Speaker 1>scene for us what's with in terms of what's going

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<v Speaker 1>on today and how the mood music has shifted, and

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<v Speaker 1>especially the crypto crash that we saw earlier in the year,

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<v Speaker 1>and then we had a big downturn over the summer.

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<v Speaker 1>Then we had sort of range bound trading for bitcoin

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<v Speaker 1>and other tokens, and then this new crash around worries

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<v Speaker 1>with different um crypto ex changes. So Biddo was the

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<v Speaker 1>top Biddo. Whether it caused the top is a different story,

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<v Speaker 1>but it pretty much marked the top and it's been

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<v Speaker 1>really rocky sledding since then. To to your point, Uh,

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<v Speaker 1>we actually wrote another great story that yeah, the FED tightening,

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<v Speaker 1>it was going to basically prove whether or not it

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<v Speaker 1>was all a bubble because as a mainstream asset class,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, if you think about when the FED was tightening,

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<v Speaker 1>when it's tightening cycle stopped back in, bitcoin was a

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<v Speaker 1>much less mature asset class in terms of the scale,

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<v Speaker 1>the different players involved, its reach. So it's been really

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<v Speaker 1>rocky since then. Mostly I think the macro backdrop most

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<v Speaker 1>people would agree, but there's been a lot of pain

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<v Speaker 1>at at sort of the corporate level in the crypto world.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, you think about what happened with Tarot, you

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<v Speaker 1>think about what happened with algorithmic stable coins. So just

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<v Speaker 1>in one year from the launch of the futures Bitcoin

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<v Speaker 1>et F, the setup is dramatically different. Now up next

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<v Speaker 1>more with Bloomberg reporter Katie Greifeld on the future of

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<v Speaker 1>bitcoin ETFs. We'll be right back. So one of the

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<v Speaker 1>things I love to talk about is how excited crypto

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<v Speaker 1>investors get about announcements like this one, or any other

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<v Speaker 1>announcement or anything new within the space that sort of

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<v Speaker 1>helps propel prices upward. And what's happened with this fund

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<v Speaker 1>and and a few other futures funds is that those

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<v Speaker 1>investors have stayed excited and they've been adding money to

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<v Speaker 1>these e t f s, right, So these ETFs have

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<v Speaker 1>actually these funds have seen inflows even as prices have

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<v Speaker 1>been crashing. That's the thing. I mean, you haven't seen

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<v Speaker 1>a mass exodus necessarily from the likes of Biddoh, even

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<v Speaker 1>though it's one of the worst performing non leveraged e

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<v Speaker 1>t F s around. Would be hard to find a

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<v Speaker 1>fund that's doing worse than it. But the stickiness of

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<v Speaker 1>the inflows that have come in, and we ran some

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<v Speaker 1>sophisticated analysis on the blue numinal well cumulative inflows into

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<v Speaker 1>this product even one point eight billion dollars, and we're

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<v Speaker 1>still talking about outflows, but none to the extent that

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<v Speaker 1>we've seen in terms of money coming in. So people

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<v Speaker 1>are hanging on. And it's also the case with some

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<v Speaker 1>of the other bitcoin futures et f that have launched

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<v Speaker 1>in the US, but they're much much smaller because in

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<v Speaker 1>the e t F space, I mean, you live and

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<v Speaker 1>die by that first mover advantage. You read my mind.

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<v Speaker 1>This was my next question, wavelengths bouncing the stud Can

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<v Speaker 1>the people feel it? Can the people at home feel it?

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<v Speaker 1>So tell us about first move advantage? What is it

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<v Speaker 1>in the e t F world? How important is it

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<v Speaker 1>and how did it help differentiate Biddle from some of

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<v Speaker 1>its competitors. So I said that pro Shares was first

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<v Speaker 1>to the punch here, and they were. You saw this

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<v Speaker 1>real arms race of e t F fishuers trying to

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<v Speaker 1>get their applications at the door of the SEC. Pro

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<v Speaker 1>Shares was able to launch their product first, by far

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<v Speaker 1>the biggest. I still believe that they have over six

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<v Speaker 1>hundred million dollars in assets. The number may change, but uh,

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<v Speaker 1>that's because they were first out the door. If you

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<v Speaker 1>think about the likes of the Valkyrie bitcoin strategy e

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<v Speaker 1>t F, it's the same thing virtually. It's also tracking

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<v Speaker 1>bitcoin futures. It was just a day or two later.

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<v Speaker 1>I believe twenty million dollars in match different or somewhere

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<v Speaker 1>around there. Yeah, so the first mover advantage. And it's

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<v Speaker 1>not just crypto, I mean, this is a feature of

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<v Speaker 1>the e t F market. The biggest oldest et F

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<v Speaker 1>out there is State Street Spy, which is just the

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<v Speaker 1>SMP five hundred. Uh dude too, and it's really become

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<v Speaker 1>a fixture of financial markets, even though it's relatively expensive.

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<v Speaker 1>It costs nine basis points oh my gosh, which again

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't sound like that much. But then you compare it

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<v Speaker 1>to similar front funds from black Rock, from Vanguard that

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<v Speaker 1>costs three basis points and still Spy is the biggest

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<v Speaker 1>just because it's the oldest. Yeah, I love this. I

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<v Speaker 1>love these topics. I love the E t F world

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<v Speaker 1>and crypto. Okay, one big, big, this is the biggest

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<v Speaker 1>question out there. I'm really nervous. I know you should be. Yeah, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>drum maybe we can get a drum roll from the producers.

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<v Speaker 1>But I didn't post. You mentioned that we don't have

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<v Speaker 1>a bitcoin spotty TF. We don't. When are we getting one?

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<v Speaker 1>You know, it just feels like it doesn't feel like

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<v Speaker 1>a SEC under the purview of Gary Gensler, that it's

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<v Speaker 1>at the top of the priority list or anywhere near

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<v Speaker 1>the top. Even though the Bitcoin Futures e t F,

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<v Speaker 1>even though it's down a lot since launched, it's performed

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<v Speaker 1>perfectly fine, and the structure exactly we talked about the

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<v Speaker 1>role costs. I haven't been anywhere close to what's feared.

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<v Speaker 1>We haven't seen really any market structure issues come of

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<v Speaker 1>the Bitcoin Futures at e t F. But it just

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<v Speaker 1>feels there's nothing, nothing that Gary Gensler has said that

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<v Speaker 1>would suggest that the SEC stands is going to budge

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<v Speaker 1>on spot bitcoin e TF. We had a big moment

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<v Speaker 1>for again both industries, both e t F n crypto

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<v Speaker 1>with gray scales E t F conversion application, the gray

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<v Speaker 1>Scale Bitcoin trust, which isn't just not a exactly they

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<v Speaker 1>would like it to be in e t F. They

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<v Speaker 1>applied with the SEC to convert it into an e

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<v Speaker 1>t F. The SEC denied that application in July. Gray

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<v Speaker 1>Scale is now currently suing the SEC. So that's sort

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<v Speaker 1>of the thing to watch in this timeline of when

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<v Speaker 1>we might get spot bitcoin et F approval. But again

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<v Speaker 1>there's just been nothing to suggest that Gary Gensler has

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<v Speaker 1>budget on this. It's kind of amazing. FED speak is

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<v Speaker 1>a thing. Watching the FED is a thing watching Jerome

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<v Speaker 1>pal every listening to the speakers right exactly. Yeah, And

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<v Speaker 1>it feels like the et F and the crypto industry

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<v Speaker 1>do that as well for Gary Gensler and doesn't feel

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<v Speaker 1>like the message at the top has changed at all.

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<v Speaker 1>He did have a somewhat snippy Halloween oh sweet about bitcoin, right,

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<v Speaker 1>congratulating bitcoin and turning four team, Yeah, something like that.

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<v Speaker 1>He called it the Crypto white Paper, though not the

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<v Speaker 1>Bitcoin white paper, and that got a lot of them's. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>he knows what he's doing. Yeah, don't quote me on that. No,

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<v Speaker 1>I won't. But you and I are giving the people

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<v Speaker 1>what they want, and maybe gay Againstler will one day

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<v Speaker 1>give the crypto people what they want. I would imagine

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<v Speaker 1>he's listening. Hello, Gary, Well, anyway, thank you so much

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<v Speaker 1>for joining us today. I'm so happy you came back.

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<v Speaker 1>This was thrilling for me too. You can find more

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<v Speaker 1>of our reporting on the Bloomberg Terminal and on Bloomberg

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<v Speaker 1>dot com, and for more, be sure to check out

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<v Speaker 1>our twice weekly newsletter, Bloomberg Crypto. This is Bloomberg Crypto,

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<v Speaker 1>a daily podcast from Bloomberg and I Heart Radio. For

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<v Speaker 1>Send us your comments, questions, or suggestions for the show

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<v Speaker 1>to Crypto at Bloomberg dot net. The supervising producer of

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky Verglina. Our senior producer is Janet Babin.

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<v Speaker 1>Our producers are Mohammed Farouk and Sharon Barriro. Our associate

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<v Speaker 1>producers are Ty Butler. And Moses on them. Desta wonder

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<v Speaker 1>At is our engineer. Original music by Leo Sidron. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>Stacy Marie schmal We'll be back tomorrow.