WEBVTT - Bonus Episode: More with Shaun Dougherty 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.520 This episode includes discussion about sexual abuse and suicide that 0:00:03.600 --> 0:00:08.160 some listeners might find disturbing. Listener discretion as advised. You're 0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:11.119 listening to Modern Rules, a production of MSNBC and I 0:00:11.200 --> 0:00:16.160 Heart Radio. I'm Stephanie Rule, MSNBC anchor and NBC News correspondent, 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:20.640 and this is a special bonus episode of Modern Rules. Ye. 0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:33.280 I had a couple of conversations this season that you 0:00:33.320 --> 0:00:36.959 didn't get to hear all. But those conversations stuck with me. 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:40.000 They sat with me over the last few weeks and months, 0:00:40.440 --> 0:00:45.479 so much so that I wanted to share more. I 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:47.840 sat down with Shawn Daugherty, and I want to share 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:50.960 more of that conversation. Earlier this season, he and I 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:54.520 talked about masculinity and faith in more leadership, but we 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:58.480 covered more. Shawn's a Navy veteran, a restaurateur, and a 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:02.080 prominent advocate for survive vers of sexual abuse. Back in 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:04.560 the nineteen eighties, between the ages of ten and thirteen, 0:01:05.160 --> 0:01:08.880 he was abused by a Catholic priest, and earlier this year, 0:01:09.000 --> 0:01:12.000 his activism on behalf of others took him all the 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:15.120 way to Rome to share his story at Pope Francis's 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:19.160 summit to discuss the church wide generation's long history of 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:23.160 sexual abuse. I had a long talk with Seawn about forgiveness, 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:27.240 what it takes, what it means, and the power it 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:32.040 can have. One of the reasons we decided to start 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:35.679 this podcast is because we are surrounded by conflict right now. 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:39.840 We are surrounded by conflict. Lack of forgiveness arise in anger. 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:43.040 But this is also a time when more people are 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:45.240 telling their stories. So I would love it if you 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:48.440 would share yours. Beginning when I was ten years old 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:53.440 in my hometown of Johnstown, Pennsylvania, in my Catholic school 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:58.040 of St. Clement's Parish, my religion teacher, who is also 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:05.160 my basketball coach, began sexually assaulting me and classmates above 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:09.600 me and below me, and continued with me progressively for 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:13.960 three years until one incident went too far in a 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:18.760 shower after a racquetball match and after shooting a very 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:23.600 stern look, no words were spoken and it just ended 0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:25.560 with me. When you were a boy and this was 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:28.040 happening to you, did you think it was just you 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:29.919 or did you think it was happening to other boys? 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:32.560 Did you think it was normal? When I was ten, 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:37.000 I thought I was isolated. I thought it was just me, 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:40.920 but you know, I'm the eighth and nine kids. You 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:44.600 catch on the things quickly, figure things quickly out. Why 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:47.720 didn't you tell anyone? Or did you no? When I 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:50.320 was a kid, no one? And when I was young. 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:53.160 You know, even though there were nine kids in my family, 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:57.079 we didn't talk about sex, and we didn't It was happening, 0:02:57.080 --> 0:02:59.600 but we weren't talking about it. And in the faith 0:02:59.760 --> 0:03:02.600 it Irish Catholic. My dad is a good man, but 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:04.840 he was a hard man. He was a steelmaker. You 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:09.480 literally made steel for Bethleem Steel. That was my father. 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:14.120 And if you said something against the priest, you just 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:19.760 you just don't. You're not there to question what the 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:22.760 teachers and the priests and the nuns are doing. You're 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:26.079 there to learn, You're there to obey, You're there to behave. 0:03:26.200 --> 0:03:27.920 When did you tell people? When did you tell your 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:32.040 parents you're sibling? When I was one? I joined the 0:03:32.160 --> 0:03:36.920 Navy when I was one, and right before they ship 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:39.040 you off to boot camp, you were in what is 0:03:39.080 --> 0:03:42.480 called a maps station. It's a staging station before they 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:45.440 send you the air portnight maps station. They swear you in, 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:48.440 they give you the oath, and if you take that 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:52.480 oath honestly, or any oath honestly, you have to say something. 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:59.480 You feel a sense of duty that I know this guy, 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:03.880 is it John Lester. I know my parents when I 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:06.080 came home from boot camp. What did they say? It 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:09.320 was at the time too hard for them to believe. 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:12.080 I'm at at the church hierarchy. I'm at at the 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:15.520 district attorneys, I'm at at the police. You know, we 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:18.680 all seld a movie spotlight. I'm mad that that these 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:22.159 other people that swore Ose two didn't hold their oath, 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:25.520 didn't hold up their end of their oath, and didn't 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:28.480 protect the people in the communities that they swore an 0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:34.040 oath to protect. If they apologized, If he apologized, could 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:36.279 you forgive him? I forgive him a long time ago. 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:39.760 When it all comes down to it, regardless of whether 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:42.080 I'm a practice in Catholic or I believe in God 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:45.920 or I believe in whatever I was raised to forgive, 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:49.200 you know, that's part of the thing. And if sorry, 0:04:50.160 --> 0:04:53.600 it doesn't matter. I'm my rule is to forgive him, 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:56.640 give him the opportunity to be sorry. You know, if 0:04:56.680 --> 0:05:00.680 he is unchangeable, I don't think you ake up one 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:03.600 day and decided to be a pedophile. I think you 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:07.080 are a pedophile. I don't think you wake up one 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:11.840 day and beside to be heterosexual or homosexual, or bisexual 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:16.560 or transgender. I don't think you choose that. I think 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:21.120 that chooses you. So I believe he needs help just 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:23.960 as much as his victims do. He needs treatment now, 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:27.960 he needs to be punished. He's done horrific, horrific things. 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:32.039 And in when I told my parents when I came 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:34.840 home from boot camp, I was mad that night, and 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:37.080 I found the rectory that he was at and I 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:39.080 sat in front of it for three hours. It was 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:43.000 Christmas Eve of and what did you do? And I 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:45.240 just sat there and talked myself out and going up 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:48.479 to the door and going inside and confronting him. I 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:53.200 thought of his mother. Had I known in what I 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:57.960 know today about everything that happened and to who and 0:05:58.120 --> 0:06:02.599 what was done, and the fact that people in the 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:07.000 diocese and in the church hierarchy knew that he was 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:09.679 a pedophile and didn't talk to any of us, didn't 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:12.200 go to my parents and say this is what he's 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:15.040 doing to you know, we know this. They didn't do that. 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:19.440 You know so had I known then in the mood 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:22.240 that I was in that night, I don't know. I 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:25.560 don't know what I would have done. You truly understand 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:29.520 the value of forgiveness when you look at the rise 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:34.280 and hate and the anger around us right now? Do 0:06:34.360 --> 0:06:36.919 you think an injection of forgiveness is what we need? Yeah? 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:41.360 Do you know what really helped me solidify my forgiveness 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:47.000 from him? South Carolina? The Charleston Church Baptist That floored me. 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:53.000 Why immediately without hesitation? The church shooting, the church shooting. 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:56.560 They were damaged, broken people, but yet they have a 0:06:56.640 --> 0:06:59.640 strong faith. Is that the most powerful thing you can 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:03.000 have the power to forgive? I haven't seen much more 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:06.159 powerful than that. I mean in all of the things 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:08.680 that are going on in the world today. I mean 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:12.880 tear gas being shot across the river, you know, a children, 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:18.320 separation of children, sexual abuse of children, and custody. Somebody 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:22.400 coming into your church and just murdering in cold blood 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:28.040 for nothing more than rage and hateful fueled reasons. To 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:32.840 immediately forgive that person takes a very strong person. But 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:37.080 what an example if you were unable to forgive, whether 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:40.440 it was the priest or the church, could you live 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:44.040 a productive life. I forgive I'm gonna struggle to liver 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:47.480 productive life. Now, are you kidding me? This is a 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:52.120 hard setting to live in. This is a hard This 0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:54.320 is a hard time to live. This is a hard 0:07:54.360 --> 0:07:59.080 time to imagine. Imagine being a victim of abuse. And 0:07:59.120 --> 0:08:01.840 it's in the news constantly. You know, be careful what 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:04.080 you wish for, you wish your whole life. You like, 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:05.640 I want this in the news all the time. I 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:07.720 want this in the news, And now it's like, this 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:11.280 is the news all the time. So it's wonderful on 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:13.760 one extreme, but on the other stream, it's like, oh 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:16.160 my god, I'm going out of my mind. So that's 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:20.480 very interesting because I think you experienced this abuse decades ago, 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:23.840 and now it's only in the last year. Here we 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:26.040 are right back in it. You went to the Vatican 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:29.760 in February. Is that a positive that you're dealing with 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:32.880 it and addressing it, or do you simply want this 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:36.680 to go away so it stops plaguing your life. Both. 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:40.400 I want the ladder. I want them to absolutely address this. 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:45.240 I want the church, the organization's, the federal government, the 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:48.800 state's governments to address this once and for all, and 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:51.080 protect the children, and I want this to all go 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:53.800 away as an issue. At the same time, it is 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:58.440 overwhelmingly in the news constantly without doing this. If I 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:01.880 wasn't doing this, for the people listening to me doing this, 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:06.720 I understand what they're going through, For the ones that 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:10.880 are really struggling to go outside, really struggling just to 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:12.360 go out and get a cup of coffee, you get 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:15.560 the morning paper, come back in. You know. Doing this 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:20.720 right here is the only difference between me and them. 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:24.840 If I wasn't doing this, I would be literally going 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:26.680 out of my mind right now. But I still don't 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:30.520 understand why you're not angrier with the institution because right now, 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:34.440 victims like you have found one another and come together 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:37.760 and given one another strength, and really, in terms of 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:42.240 the church, they've barely scratched. I am in raged at 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:46.199 the church. The church. I have not forgiven the hierarchy. 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:52.400 I will not forgive until they stop. The organization are evil. 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:56.719 They are the worst, worst kind of evil. They are 0:09:56.760 --> 0:10:03.880 taking the most vulnerable o their followers. They are manipulating 0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:10.560 their faithful followers, children, They're manipulating the communities that they 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:15.800 live in. They're manipulating through confessionally. Imagine the amount of 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:20.040 information that is if my mom had nine kids, right, 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:25.400 My father was an Irish steelmaking drinker like I mean, 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:29.480 boiler makers like you couldn't imagine, I mean, and one 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:32.520 after another after the shift the bars at seven am, 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:34.439 after the seven a chef. It might as well have 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:36.760 been a Friday night. You know. She did the island 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:38.720 on meeting. You know, she had nine kids to raise, 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:40.480 you know, and it was a rough life style and 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:44.120 and that was her you know sanctuary. That was where 0:10:44.160 --> 0:10:47.080 she found grace. That is where you know, she would 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:49.960 go into confession and talk about things that were going 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:54.319 hard on their life. And instead of giving her hope 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:59.319 and helping, they manipulated that and took that out on me. 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:04.319 Why did an institution allow itself to do something like this? 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:07.240 You went to the Vatican as the Pope a bad man. 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:10.000 I didn't meet him. I mean I would have liked 0:11:10.040 --> 0:11:13.079 to have. You know, the twelve victims that met with 0:11:13.120 --> 0:11:16.440 the Vatican Summit committee chairs. I was one of the twelve, 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:19.240 and we were all hoping to see the Pope come in, 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:21.960 which he didn't do. I think he's a bad person. 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:23.920 I don't know that he's a bad person, but I 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:28.360 think he's protecting the Church and the institution and the 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:33.680 secrets and the system um more than he should. And 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:38.640 a few takeaways that I got from the Vatican meeting 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:42.520 that I did have is, you know, the US is 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:46.720 a very young country by comparisons to the other countries 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:49.800 that the Catholic Church has had very very deep roots 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:53.080 in for a very very long time. We're moving at 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:57.439 a pace that makes the Church very uncomfortable, and they 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:01.120 don't like it, not one bit. However, what I found 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:06.679 unique is that while in Europe, so many European victims 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:09.640 kept coming to the American victims saying, you have to 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:12.640 keep doing it. To them, We're still the American cowboys 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:16.640 from World War two, errors world. We're like, not in 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:19.320 this country, you know. And that's what they're hoping for. 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:21.800 They're hoping for the US to continue to drive this 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:26.880 because we think that the Catholic Church has deep roots 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:30.240 in our country, they have deeper roots in other countries. 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:34.280 Hold on a second, because we have so much more 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:36.800 to talk about. We'll be right back after a quick rate. 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:46.439 Welcome back to modern rules and where's your faith in humanity? 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:49.640 Where it's even harder to have that these days, isn't it? 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:53.320 But I feel you are a soulful person. I feel 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:56.280 you're an optimistic person in spite of all of this. 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:58.640 So I want to understand where it comes from at 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:02.160 a time when so many people, well, I have many 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:05.959 people of faith tell me that I am faithful. I've 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:08.920 had the Bishop of Altoona, Johnstown tell me that I 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:11.440 believe in God. I'm just on leave, you know, I'm 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:14.880 on break right now? Can I say that I pray? Yeah? 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:16.760 Do I say that? Our father? And how Mary? No, 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:18.959 I couldn't recite one right now. You would have to 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:20.720 lead it. And if you let it, I could probably 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:22.840 jump in. But I couldn't do it on my own 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:26.920 right now. But they usually in an argument and rage. 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:30.720 And I can tell you if God exists, I've said 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:33.720 some very mean things to him over the years. How 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:36.880 do you manage the rage? I scream? Throughout the years? 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:39.800 I managed in different ways. I self medicated for a 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:44.000 long time. Yeah, anything that would make me take me 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:46.640 somewhere else, you know, conveniently being in the bar and 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:49.920 restaurant business my whole life, especially nightclubs and things. You know, 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:54.920 Cocaine is a magical tool you feel you fork and 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:59.840 all of the alcohol, everything you know, it's magnificent until 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:02.760 you get addicted cocaine and now you have two problems. 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:06.360 But they don't help you forgive, they help you run. 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:10.240 I was a pro at running until I got married 0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:13.760 two thousand four. If I wasn't married right now, I'd 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:16.599 probably be behind the wheel of a eighteen wheel or 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:20.280 truck or on some cargo ship to see. Are you 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:26.920 at peace? No, not even close. Are you angry? Yeah, 0:14:27.160 --> 0:14:31.240 I'm incredibly angry. This has gone on long enough. What 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:35.200 would make you not angry? If the federal government and 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:39.520 the state individual state governments brought this issue up immediately, 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:43.960 and we have separation of church and state, regardless of 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:46.800 how much money that contribute to your campaign, we're supposed 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:52.360 to be separated. And we have official state investigations from 0:14:52.360 --> 0:14:56.120 across the board in Pennsylvania that every single diocese in 0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:58.920 Pennsylvania is doing this, and now forty six other state 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:02.800 attorney general world are inquiring at least say it that 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:06.800 they are going to look into this. So but going 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:09.720 to look into this? If we were talking about dozens 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:13.560 and dozens of men of teachers of welders over the 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:16.400 last fifty years that were abusing boys, they'd all be 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:18.800 in jail. Are you kidding me? If this was a 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:21.440 bike gang, if this was the Hell's Angels, Are you 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:25.000 kidding me? Absolutely? But I alluded to it before campaign 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:29.960 the power connection wealth. These reports said that these people manipuate. 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:32.960 Why am I not upset at my parents now in 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:35.520 the community now because they were groomed just like me. 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:39.120 They were groomed before me. You have to groom them 0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:43.920 first in order to get them to hand you their children. Well, 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:46.240 they're the people you're supposed to trust and look up 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:48.960 to in your community, and we're finding out that you 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:51.560 can't do that to everybody. So there have to be 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:54.280 safeguards in place. And that is the role of our 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:58.680 government to protect and serve these citizens in their communities, 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:02.720 and they need to put better safeguards in to protect them. 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:04.880 My statutes of limitation. When I was a kid, I 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:07.160 had two years the end of my abuse. I told 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:09.720 you earlier. I was thirteen years old, so I had 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:12.120 to say something by the time I was fifteen years old. 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:17.080 Talk about the power of the individual voice. Today it's changed. 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:22.320 I'm one of nine kids from Johnstown, Pennsylvania. Three years ago. 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:26.080 I came out for the first time publicly. I did 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:31.440 my first public interview at the state Capitol in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:35.400 and I am one of twelve people in the world 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:41.360 that got a meeting with the Vatican Summit Committee chair people. 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:45.120 One person's voice can do a hell of a lot 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:53.720 if you just keep My mom used to say, squeaky 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:59.840 will get the oil first. If you're tenacious, system works. 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:05.560 If you're tenacious, you got right on your side. You're tenacious, 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:08.960 and you have the I don't give an attitude. You 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:12.200 can't hurt me. I don't care if I lose everything, 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:15.520 You're not taking me now I'm I'm walking away. I 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:19.520 don't care. I don't care. Then, as crazy as this 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:24.639 sounds on some level, as horrible as this is what 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:27.960 happened to you, do you ever think in the last 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:31.240 few years that maybe, in some way this was your purpose. 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:35.080 Look at what you've done, look at all of the 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:37.960 people that you've helped. Just think about this for a moment. 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:42.520 A few months ago, you into the Vatican. The Vatican 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:47.040 brought every church leader from around the world. And I'm 0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:49.920 not saying it's solved, but for the first time the 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:53.920 Pope has actually addressed this. Do you think, in some 0:17:54.600 --> 0:18:00.200 crazy way maybe this was your purpose? Yeah, I have 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:04.760 found my purpose in this. It didn't kill you, and 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:07.200 you have made the world. I tried to kill myself 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:11.480 and it didn't kill me. I swallowed three hundred pills 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:15.160 here in New York when I was a young cook 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:17.760 in the city. I didn't tell my brother I was 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:20.800 flipping on, flopping on his foots on. But none of 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:24.800 this killed you. And now you've done work that has 0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:30.200 saved people's lives. When you're in Rome, you were outside 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:34.320 walking towards the Vatican with your wife and someone of 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:39.680 Polish descent recognizes you from an article that a Polish 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:44.000 magazine did and follows you on Twitter and Facebook. Comes over, 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:49.280 says you're shot, ask you to keep it up. You're like, 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:54.200 tells you you have to because we can only go 0:18:54.920 --> 0:19:00.240 so far. We're going to be right back after a 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:08.440 quick break. Welcome back to modern rules. But think about that, Sean. 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:13.639 If this never happened, you may have lived a regular 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:17.480 life in Pennsylvania and it's been a brutal road. But 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:23.000 now you've actually lived an extraordinary life where you're walking 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:26.200 down a street in Rome, and a Polish person says 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:29.520 to you, thank you for what you're doing. Don't you 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:35.040 think that's amazing? It's incredible. It is the amount of today. 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:38.200 When those feelings come up, there are things happening, things 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:41.600 aren't buried. I have a very strong support group, a 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:45.520 network of friends. Social media is incredible, the people like 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:48.120 the person from Poland. I get phone calls all the time. 0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:50.720 A seventy six year old woman from Brooklyn called me. 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:53.840 She was sitting next to her ninety six year old 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:57.320 mother just a few months ago, bawling their eyes out 0:19:57.440 --> 0:20:01.400 because the mother was abused as a child by a nun, 0:20:02.040 --> 0:20:05.760 and the family always thought mom was nuts. They only 0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:08.000 learned two years ago the mom wasn't not she was 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:11.639 abused and they were bonding over that. Me about the 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:14.680 beautiful power of social media, because right now all we 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:17.080 do is talk about the toxicity and the hate that 0:20:17.160 --> 0:20:21.119 it spreads. And you have had the comfortable amazing this 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:25.040 can be the most amazing powerful told this being my phone. 0:20:25.520 --> 0:20:29.080 I told Bishop Barchek, I told in that Vatican summit 0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:32.240 meeting that I was in. On my desk, I had 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:35.119 my copy of the Pennsylvania grand jury report, and I 0:20:35.240 --> 0:20:39.680 had four pictures of deceased victims from Pennsylvania, right. And 0:20:39.840 --> 0:20:42.920 I told them, whether you like it or not, whether 0:20:43.040 --> 0:20:45.320 you agree with any of this that has happened in 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:48.639 to you, whether you are going to change anything or not, 0:20:49.600 --> 0:20:53.800 you just are no longer the most powerful entity on 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:58.840 earth that belongs to social media now. And social media 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:02.280 is demand that you do something about it. And if 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:05.440 you don't, you can choose to do whatever you want. 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:09.119 But social media is demanding you don't, and if you don't, 0:21:09.520 --> 0:21:11.840 you're going to get run over. I said, I'm one 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:14.480 of nine children. I told them in this Vatican meeting. 0:21:14.520 --> 0:21:16.600 I said, I am one of nine children. They don't 0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:20.920 come more Catholics, the Novena's, the rosaries, the stations of 0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:23.200 the Cross. You know, I said, by rights, you should 0:21:23.200 --> 0:21:25.639 have had at least one none or one prise down 0:21:25.720 --> 0:21:27.920 in my family. Not only did you not get one, 0:21:28.000 --> 0:21:30.040 you only have one of my siblings coming to Mass, 0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:34.240 none of their children. That tells me, as a business person, 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:37.920 as somebody that's following this very closely, you are the 0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:42.040 largest landowners in my country. And if you don't get 0:21:42.080 --> 0:21:44.960 ahead of this, and I mean properly, get ahead of 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:49.600 this within one generation, my mother's generation. When my mother's 0:21:49.640 --> 0:21:54.040 generation is gone, you are going to have the largest 0:21:54.480 --> 0:21:59.639 yard sale in American history. And it's true, that's true. 0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:02.440 What has social media done for you? Though? In terms 0:22:02.480 --> 0:22:05.399 of reach? If Twitter didn't exist, if Facebook didn't exist, 0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:08.159 you could write an op ed in a local paper 0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:12.160 that maybe would get printed. It's incredible all of these things. 0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:15.240 You think you're alone, you're not alone, and now no 0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:19.880 longer are you alone. You're connected. And it doesn't matter 0:22:19.960 --> 0:22:22.760 what time. If you're up at three in the morning 0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:25.400 because the monsters are in your head and your nightmares, 0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:28.040 you're kicking the bed off and you're rolling out of 0:22:28.080 --> 0:22:31.080 bed because you had raged. You can get on now 0:22:31.760 --> 0:22:34.760 the social media, if we allow it, it could be 0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:38.399 the worst tool in the world too, because as people 0:22:38.480 --> 0:22:42.840 like me are finding it comfortable to talk about the 0:22:42.920 --> 0:22:46.359 most horrific incidences of their lives, people are also finding 0:22:46.440 --> 0:22:48.880 it very comfortable that they might not say to somebody 0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:52.000 personally that they will just rip off in a tweet 0:22:52.280 --> 0:22:55.000 or in a thing. And we have to go through 0:22:55.040 --> 0:22:58.480 a phase where we learn you can't just throw tone 0:22:58.960 --> 0:23:02.280 through a tweet. You know, a person sending a tweet 0:23:02.320 --> 0:23:05.040 can have one meaning and it could be received in 0:23:05.119 --> 0:23:08.880 a totally different way. So there's gonna be a learning 0:23:08.920 --> 0:23:11.800 curve there, But I think in the end we all 0:23:11.880 --> 0:23:17.240 were very similar. Do you consider yourself a victim or 0:23:17.359 --> 0:23:22.880 someone living a blessed life both. I'm a survivor. I've 0:23:22.960 --> 0:23:29.040 survived to this point, sexual abuse, sexual assault. At times, 0:23:29.119 --> 0:23:33.760 I allow myself to feel the victim, probably sometimes too much, 0:23:34.640 --> 0:23:39.560 but in comparison to what I know now, I'm very fortunate. 0:23:40.160 --> 0:23:43.920 If I could change this what I yes, but it's 0:23:43.960 --> 0:23:47.119 part of my life story. It's formed who I am today, 0:23:47.640 --> 0:23:50.120 the good, the bad, and the ugly. You feel good 0:23:50.119 --> 0:23:52.919 about the world today, don't you know? I'm nervous as 0:23:52.960 --> 0:23:56.160 hell about the world today. I mean, but yeah, I've hoped. 0:23:56.200 --> 0:23:58.840 I mean it's gonna come out. Okay, we have elections. 0:23:59.000 --> 0:24:01.879 You know, people come another better senses. But on an 0:24:01.920 --> 0:24:06.080 individual basis, you feel good about humanity individuals one on one. 0:24:06.119 --> 0:24:07.879 I think if you would break it down to a 0:24:08.000 --> 0:24:11.720 one on one conversation, you would find more in common 0:24:11.800 --> 0:24:14.240 with the person sitting across from you. If you start 0:24:14.280 --> 0:24:17.439 adding more people into the conversation, you're only as strong 0:24:17.880 --> 0:24:20.840 as the weakest, most ignorant person In the room. So 0:24:21.000 --> 0:24:23.600 is that what's going to solve it for us? Because 0:24:23.760 --> 0:24:27.159 if you take the tribalism that we're living in right now, 0:24:27.440 --> 0:24:30.720 it's faceless, right. You know, one group is watching one 0:24:30.760 --> 0:24:33.280 set of news, one group is watching another. You're only 0:24:33.400 --> 0:24:36.240 following this group on social media and that group. But 0:24:36.359 --> 0:24:39.639 if more people sat at the table together on an 0:24:39.680 --> 0:24:44.040 individual basis, you think we can solve more. How are 0:24:44.080 --> 0:24:47.159