1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: This episode includes discussion about sexual abuse and suicide that 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:08,160 Speaker 1: some listeners might find disturbing. Listener discretion as advised. You're 3 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,119 Speaker 1: listening to Modern Rules, a production of MSNBC and I 4 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. I'm Stephanie Rule, MSNBC anchor and NBC News correspondent, 5 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: and this is a special bonus episode of Modern Rules. Ye. 6 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: I had a couple of conversations this season that you 7 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,959 Speaker 1: didn't get to hear all. But those conversations stuck with me. 8 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: They sat with me over the last few weeks and months, 9 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: so much so that I wanted to share more. I 10 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:47,840 Speaker 1: sat down with Shawn Daugherty, and I want to share 11 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: more of that conversation. Earlier this season, he and I 12 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: talked about masculinity and faith in more leadership, but we 13 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: covered more. Shawn's a Navy veteran, a restaurateur, and a 14 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: prominent advocate for survive vers of sexual abuse. Back in 15 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties, between the ages of ten and thirteen, 16 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: he was abused by a Catholic priest, and earlier this year, 17 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: his activism on behalf of others took him all the 18 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: way to Rome to share his story at Pope Francis's 19 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: summit to discuss the church wide generation's long history of 20 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: sexual abuse. I had a long talk with Seawn about forgiveness, 21 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: what it takes, what it means, and the power it 22 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 1: can have. One of the reasons we decided to start 23 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 1: this podcast is because we are surrounded by conflict right now. 24 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: We are surrounded by conflict. Lack of forgiveness arise in anger. 25 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 1: But this is also a time when more people are 26 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: telling their stories. So I would love it if you 27 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: would share yours. Beginning when I was ten years old 28 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: in my hometown of Johnstown, Pennsylvania, in my Catholic school 29 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: of St. Clement's Parish, my religion teacher, who is also 30 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: my basketball coach, began sexually assaulting me and classmates above 31 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: me and below me, and continued with me progressively for 32 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: three years until one incident went too far in a 33 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: shower after a racquetball match and after shooting a very 34 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: stern look, no words were spoken and it just ended 35 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: with me. When you were a boy and this was 36 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: happening to you, did you think it was just you 37 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 1: or did you think it was happening to other boys? 38 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: Did you think it was normal? When I was ten, 39 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: I thought I was isolated. I thought it was just me, 40 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:40,920 Speaker 1: but you know, I'm the eighth and nine kids. You 41 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: catch on the things quickly, figure things quickly out. Why 42 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: didn't you tell anyone? Or did you no? When I 43 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: was a kid, no one? And when I was young. 44 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: You know, even though there were nine kids in my family, 45 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:57,079 Speaker 1: we didn't talk about sex, and we didn't It was happening, 46 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: but we weren't talking about it. And in the faith 47 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 1: it Irish Catholic. My dad is a good man, but 48 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: he was a hard man. He was a steelmaker. You 49 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: literally made steel for Bethleem Steel. That was my father. 50 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: And if you said something against the priest, you just 51 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: you just don't. You're not there to question what the 52 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: teachers and the priests and the nuns are doing. You're 53 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:26,079 Speaker 1: there to learn, You're there to obey, You're there to behave. 54 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 1: When did you tell people? When did you tell your 55 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: parents you're sibling? When I was one? I joined the 56 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 1: Navy when I was one, and right before they ship 57 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: you off to boot camp, you were in what is 58 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: called a maps station. It's a staging station before they 59 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: send you the air portnight maps station. They swear you in, 60 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: they give you the oath, and if you take that 61 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: oath honestly, or any oath honestly, you have to say something. 62 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: You feel a sense of duty that I know this guy, 63 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: is it John Lester. I know my parents when I 64 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: came home from boot camp. What did they say? It 65 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: was at the time too hard for them to believe. 66 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: I'm at at the church hierarchy. I'm at at the 67 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: district attorneys, I'm at at the police. You know, we 68 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: all seld a movie spotlight. I'm mad that that these 69 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 1: other people that swore Ose two didn't hold their oath, 70 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: didn't hold up their end of their oath, and didn't 71 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 1: protect the people in the communities that they swore an 72 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 1: oath to protect. If they apologized, If he apologized, could 73 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: you forgive him? I forgive him a long time ago. 74 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: When it all comes down to it, regardless of whether 75 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: I'm a practice in Catholic or I believe in God 76 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 1: or I believe in whatever I was raised to forgive, 77 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: you know, that's part of the thing. And if sorry, 78 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. I'm my rule is to forgive him, 79 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: give him the opportunity to be sorry. You know, if 80 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: he is unchangeable, I don't think you ake up one 81 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 1: day and decided to be a pedophile. I think you 82 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: are a pedophile. I don't think you wake up one 83 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 1: day and beside to be heterosexual or homosexual, or bisexual 84 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: or transgender. I don't think you choose that. I think 85 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 1: that chooses you. So I believe he needs help just 86 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: as much as his victims do. He needs treatment now, 87 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: he needs to be punished. He's done horrific, horrific things. 88 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:32,039 Speaker 1: And in when I told my parents when I came 89 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,840 Speaker 1: home from boot camp, I was mad that night, and 90 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: I found the rectory that he was at and I 91 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: sat in front of it for three hours. It was 92 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: Christmas Eve of and what did you do? And I 93 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: just sat there and talked myself out and going up 94 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 1: to the door and going inside and confronting him. I 95 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: thought of his mother. Had I known in what I 96 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: know today about everything that happened and to who and 97 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 1: what was done, and the fact that people in the 98 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: diocese and in the church hierarchy knew that he was 99 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:09,679 Speaker 1: a pedophile and didn't talk to any of us, didn't 100 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: go to my parents and say this is what he's 101 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 1: doing to you know, we know this. They didn't do that. 102 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: You know so had I known then in the mood 103 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: that I was in that night, I don't know. I 104 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: don't know what I would have done. You truly understand 105 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: the value of forgiveness when you look at the rise 106 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:34,280 Speaker 1: and hate and the anger around us right now? Do 107 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:36,919 Speaker 1: you think an injection of forgiveness is what we need? Yeah? 108 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 1: Do you know what really helped me solidify my forgiveness 109 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: from him? South Carolina? The Charleston Church Baptist That floored me. 110 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: Why immediately without hesitation? The church shooting, the church shooting. 111 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: They were damaged, broken people, but yet they have a 112 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: strong faith. Is that the most powerful thing you can 113 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 1: have the power to forgive? I haven't seen much more 114 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 1: powerful than that. I mean in all of the things 115 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: that are going on in the world today. I mean 116 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: tear gas being shot across the river, you know, a children, 117 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: separation of children, sexual abuse of children, and custody. Somebody 118 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: coming into your church and just murdering in cold blood 119 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: for nothing more than rage and hateful fueled reasons. To 120 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: immediately forgive that person takes a very strong person. But 121 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 1: what an example if you were unable to forgive, whether 122 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: it was the priest or the church, could you live 123 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: a productive life. I forgive I'm gonna struggle to liver 124 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: productive life. Now, are you kidding me? This is a 125 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: hard setting to live in. This is a hard This 126 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: is a hard time to live. This is a hard 127 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 1: time to imagine. Imagine being a victim of abuse. And 128 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: it's in the news constantly. You know, be careful what 129 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: you wish for, you wish your whole life. You like, 130 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: I want this in the news all the time. I 131 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: want this in the news, And now it's like, this 132 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: is the news all the time. So it's wonderful on 133 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: one extreme, but on the other stream, it's like, oh 134 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: my god, I'm going out of my mind. So that's 135 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: very interesting because I think you experienced this abuse decades ago, 136 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: and now it's only in the last year. Here we 137 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: are right back in it. You went to the Vatican 138 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: in February. Is that a positive that you're dealing with 139 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: it and addressing it, or do you simply want this 140 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: to go away so it stops plaguing your life. Both. 141 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: I want the ladder. I want them to absolutely address this. 142 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: I want the church, the organization's, the federal government, the 143 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: state's governments to address this once and for all, and 144 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 1: protect the children, and I want this to all go 145 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: away as an issue. At the same time, it is 146 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 1: overwhelmingly in the news constantly without doing this. If I 147 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: wasn't doing this, for the people listening to me doing this, 148 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 1: I understand what they're going through, For the ones that 149 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: are really struggling to go outside, really struggling just to 150 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: go out and get a cup of coffee, you get 151 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 1: the morning paper, come back in. You know. Doing this 152 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 1: right here is the only difference between me and them. 153 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 1: If I wasn't doing this, I would be literally going 154 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 1: out of my mind right now. But I still don't 155 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: understand why you're not angrier with the institution because right now, 156 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: victims like you have found one another and come together 157 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: and given one another strength, and really, in terms of 158 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: the church, they've barely scratched. I am in raged at 159 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:46,199 Speaker 1: the church. The church. I have not forgiven the hierarchy. 160 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: I will not forgive until they stop. The organization are evil. 161 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:56,719 Speaker 1: They are the worst, worst kind of evil. They are 162 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: taking the most vulnerable o their followers. They are manipulating 163 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 1: their faithful followers, children, They're manipulating the communities that they 164 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: live in. They're manipulating through confessionally. Imagine the amount of 165 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: information that is if my mom had nine kids, right, 166 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: My father was an Irish steelmaking drinker like I mean, 167 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: boiler makers like you couldn't imagine, I mean, and one 168 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: after another after the shift the bars at seven am, 169 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:34,439 Speaker 1: after the seven a chef. It might as well have 170 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: been a Friday night. You know. She did the island 171 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 1: on meeting. You know, she had nine kids to raise, 172 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: you know, and it was a rough life style and 173 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: and that was her you know sanctuary. That was where 174 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 1: she found grace. That is where you know, she would 175 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: go into confession and talk about things that were going 176 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:54,319 Speaker 1: hard on their life. And instead of giving her hope 177 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:59,319 Speaker 1: and helping, they manipulated that and took that out on me. 178 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:04,319 Speaker 1: Why did an institution allow itself to do something like this? 179 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 1: You went to the Vatican as the Pope a bad man. 180 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: I didn't meet him. I mean I would have liked 181 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:13,079 Speaker 1: to have. You know, the twelve victims that met with 182 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: the Vatican Summit committee chairs. I was one of the twelve, 183 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: and we were all hoping to see the Pope come in, 184 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: which he didn't do. I think he's a bad person. 185 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: I don't know that he's a bad person, but I 186 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: think he's protecting the Church and the institution and the 187 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 1: secrets and the system um more than he should. And 188 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: a few takeaways that I got from the Vatican meeting 189 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: that I did have is, you know, the US is 190 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 1: a very young country by comparisons to the other countries 191 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 1: that the Catholic Church has had very very deep roots 192 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 1: in for a very very long time. We're moving at 193 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:57,439 Speaker 1: a pace that makes the Church very uncomfortable, and they 194 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: don't like it, not one bit. However, what I found 195 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 1: unique is that while in Europe, so many European victims 196 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: kept coming to the American victims saying, you have to 197 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 1: keep doing it. To them, We're still the American cowboys 198 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 1: from World War two, errors world. We're like, not in 199 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 1: this country, you know. And that's what they're hoping for. 200 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: They're hoping for the US to continue to drive this 201 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: because we think that the Catholic Church has deep roots 202 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: in our country, they have deeper roots in other countries. 203 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: Hold on a second, because we have so much more 204 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: to talk about. We'll be right back after a quick rate. 205 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:46,439 Speaker 1: Welcome back to modern rules and where's your faith in humanity? 206 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: Where it's even harder to have that these days, isn't it? 207 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 1: But I feel you are a soulful person. I feel 208 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: you're an optimistic person in spite of all of this. 209 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 1: So I want to understand where it comes from at 210 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: a time when so many people, well, I have many 211 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,959 Speaker 1: people of faith tell me that I am faithful. I've 212 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: had the Bishop of Altoona, Johnstown tell me that I 213 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 1: believe in God. I'm just on leave, you know, I'm 214 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: on break right now? Can I say that I pray? Yeah? 215 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: Do I say that? Our father? And how Mary? No, 216 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:18,959 Speaker 1: I couldn't recite one right now. You would have to 217 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: lead it. And if you let it, I could probably 218 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 1: jump in. But I couldn't do it on my own 219 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: right now. But they usually in an argument and rage. 220 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 1: And I can tell you if God exists, I've said 221 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: some very mean things to him over the years. How 222 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: do you manage the rage? I scream? Throughout the years? 223 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: I managed in different ways. I self medicated for a 224 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: long time. Yeah, anything that would make me take me 225 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: somewhere else, you know, conveniently being in the bar and 226 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: restaurant business my whole life, especially nightclubs and things. You know, 227 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 1: Cocaine is a magical tool you feel you fork and 228 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: all of the alcohol, everything you know, it's magnificent until 229 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: you get addicted cocaine and now you have two problems. 230 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: But they don't help you forgive, they help you run. 231 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: I was a pro at running until I got married 232 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: two thousand four. If I wasn't married right now, I'd 233 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,599 Speaker 1: probably be behind the wheel of a eighteen wheel or 234 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: truck or on some cargo ship to see. Are you 235 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: at peace? No, not even close. Are you angry? Yeah, 236 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 1: I'm incredibly angry. This has gone on long enough. What 237 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: would make you not angry? If the federal government and 238 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: the state individual state governments brought this issue up immediately, 239 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: and we have separation of church and state, regardless of 240 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: how much money that contribute to your campaign, we're supposed 241 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: to be separated. And we have official state investigations from 242 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: across the board in Pennsylvania that every single diocese in 243 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: Pennsylvania is doing this, and now forty six other state 244 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: attorney general world are inquiring at least say it that 245 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: they are going to look into this. So but going 246 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: to look into this? If we were talking about dozens 247 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: and dozens of men of teachers of welders over the 248 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: last fifty years that were abusing boys, they'd all be 249 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: in jail. Are you kidding me? If this was a 250 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: bike gang, if this was the Hell's Angels, Are you 251 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 1: kidding me? Absolutely? But I alluded to it before campaign 252 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: the power connection wealth. These reports said that these people manipuate. 253 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 1: Why am I not upset at my parents now in 254 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: the community now because they were groomed just like me. 255 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: They were groomed before me. You have to groom them 256 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: first in order to get them to hand you their children. Well, 257 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: they're the people you're supposed to trust and look up 258 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: to in your community, and we're finding out that you 259 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: can't do that to everybody. So there have to be 260 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: safeguards in place. And that is the role of our 261 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: government to protect and serve these citizens in their communities, 262 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: and they need to put better safeguards in to protect them. 263 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: My statutes of limitation. When I was a kid, I 264 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: had two years the end of my abuse. I told 265 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 1: you earlier. I was thirteen years old, so I had 266 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: to say something by the time I was fifteen years old. 267 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: Talk about the power of the individual voice. Today it's changed. 268 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: I'm one of nine kids from Johnstown, Pennsylvania. Three years ago. 269 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: I came out for the first time publicly. I did 270 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: my first public interview at the state Capitol in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, 271 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 1: and I am one of twelve people in the world 272 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: that got a meeting with the Vatican Summit Committee chair people. 273 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: One person's voice can do a hell of a lot 274 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: if you just keep My mom used to say, squeaky 275 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: will get the oil first. If you're tenacious, system works. 276 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: If you're tenacious, you got right on your side. You're tenacious, 277 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 1: and you have the I don't give an attitude. You 278 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:12,200 Speaker 1: can't hurt me. I don't care if I lose everything, 279 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: You're not taking me now I'm I'm walking away. I 280 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: don't care. I don't care. Then, as crazy as this 281 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 1: sounds on some level, as horrible as this is what 282 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 1: happened to you, do you ever think in the last 283 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: few years that maybe, in some way this was your purpose. 284 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: Look at what you've done, look at all of the 285 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: people that you've helped. Just think about this for a moment. 286 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: A few months ago, you into the Vatican. The Vatican 287 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: brought every church leader from around the world. And I'm 288 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 1: not saying it's solved, but for the first time the 289 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 1: Pope has actually addressed this. Do you think, in some 290 00:17:54,600 --> 00:18:00,200 Speaker 1: crazy way maybe this was your purpose? Yeah, I have 291 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: found my purpose in this. It didn't kill you, and 292 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: you have made the world. I tried to kill myself 293 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: and it didn't kill me. I swallowed three hundred pills 294 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 1: here in New York when I was a young cook 295 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: in the city. I didn't tell my brother I was 296 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: flipping on, flopping on his foots on. But none of 297 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: this killed you. And now you've done work that has 298 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 1: saved people's lives. When you're in Rome, you were outside 299 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: walking towards the Vatican with your wife and someone of 300 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 1: Polish descent recognizes you from an article that a Polish 301 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: magazine did and follows you on Twitter and Facebook. Comes over, 302 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: says you're shot, ask you to keep it up. You're like, 303 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 1: tells you you have to because we can only go 304 00:18:54,920 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 1: so far. We're going to be right back after a 305 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 1: quick break. Welcome back to modern rules. But think about that, Sean. 306 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:13,639 Speaker 1: If this never happened, you may have lived a regular 307 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: life in Pennsylvania and it's been a brutal road. But 308 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: now you've actually lived an extraordinary life where you're walking 309 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 1: down a street in Rome, and a Polish person says 310 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: to you, thank you for what you're doing. Don't you 311 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: think that's amazing? It's incredible. It is the amount of today. 312 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 1: When those feelings come up, there are things happening, things 313 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 1: aren't buried. I have a very strong support group, a 314 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: network of friends. Social media is incredible, the people like 315 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,120 Speaker 1: the person from Poland. I get phone calls all the time. 316 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 1: A seventy six year old woman from Brooklyn called me. 317 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: She was sitting next to her ninety six year old 318 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 1: mother just a few months ago, bawling their eyes out 319 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 1: because the mother was abused as a child by a nun, 320 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: and the family always thought mom was nuts. They only 321 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: learned two years ago the mom wasn't not she was 322 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 1: abused and they were bonding over that. Me about the 323 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 1: beautiful power of social media, because right now all we 324 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: do is talk about the toxicity and the hate that 325 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 1: it spreads. And you have had the comfortable amazing this 326 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: can be the most amazing powerful told this being my phone. 327 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: I told Bishop Barchek, I told in that Vatican summit 328 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: meeting that I was in. On my desk, I had 329 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 1: my copy of the Pennsylvania grand jury report, and I 330 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 1: had four pictures of deceased victims from Pennsylvania, right. And 331 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: I told them, whether you like it or not, whether 332 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: you agree with any of this that has happened in 333 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 1: to you, whether you are going to change anything or not, 334 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: you just are no longer the most powerful entity on 335 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: earth that belongs to social media now. And social media 336 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: is demand that you do something about it. And if 337 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 1: you don't, you can choose to do whatever you want. 338 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,119 Speaker 1: But social media is demanding you don't, and if you don't, 339 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 1: you're going to get run over. I said, I'm one 340 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 1: of nine children. I told them in this Vatican meeting. 341 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: I said, I am one of nine children. They don't 342 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:20,920 Speaker 1: come more Catholics, the Novena's, the rosaries, the stations of 343 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 1: the Cross. You know, I said, by rights, you should 344 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 1: have had at least one none or one prise down 345 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 1: in my family. Not only did you not get one, 346 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: you only have one of my siblings coming to Mass, 347 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: none of their children. That tells me, as a business person, 348 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 1: as somebody that's following this very closely, you are the 349 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: largest landowners in my country. And if you don't get 350 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 1: ahead of this, and I mean properly, get ahead of 351 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: this within one generation, my mother's generation. When my mother's 352 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: generation is gone, you are going to have the largest 353 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 1: yard sale in American history. And it's true, that's true. 354 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 1: What has social media done for you? Though? In terms 355 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 1: of reach? If Twitter didn't exist, if Facebook didn't exist, 356 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: you could write an op ed in a local paper 357 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 1: that maybe would get printed. It's incredible all of these things. 358 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: You think you're alone, you're not alone, and now no 359 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:19,880 Speaker 1: longer are you alone. You're connected. And it doesn't matter 360 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: what time. If you're up at three in the morning 361 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,400 Speaker 1: because the monsters are in your head and your nightmares, 362 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: you're kicking the bed off and you're rolling out of 363 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: bed because you had raged. You can get on now 364 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 1: the social media, if we allow it, it could be 365 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,399 Speaker 1: the worst tool in the world too, because as people 366 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 1: like me are finding it comfortable to talk about the 367 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 1: most horrific incidences of their lives, people are also finding 368 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:48,880 Speaker 1: it very comfortable that they might not say to somebody 369 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: personally that they will just rip off in a tweet 370 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: or in a thing. And we have to go through 371 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 1: a phase where we learn you can't just throw tone 372 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 1: through a tweet. You know, a person sending a tweet 373 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: can have one meaning and it could be received in 374 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 1: a totally different way. So there's gonna be a learning 375 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: curve there, But I think in the end we all 376 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: were very similar. Do you consider yourself a victim or 377 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:22,880 Speaker 1: someone living a blessed life both. I'm a survivor. I've 378 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: survived to this point, sexual abuse, sexual assault. At times, 379 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: I allow myself to feel the victim, probably sometimes too much, 380 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: but in comparison to what I know now, I'm very fortunate. 381 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 1: If I could change this what I yes, but it's 382 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 1: part of my life story. It's formed who I am today, 383 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,120 Speaker 1: the good, the bad, and the ugly. You feel good 384 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,919 Speaker 1: about the world today, don't you know? I'm nervous as 385 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 1: hell about the world today. I mean, but yeah, I've hoped. 386 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: I mean it's gonna come out. Okay, we have elections. 387 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 1: You know, people come another better senses. But on an 388 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: individual basis, you feel good about humanity individuals one on one. 389 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 1: I think if you would break it down to a 390 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 1: one on one conversation, you would find more in common 391 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: with the person sitting across from you. If you start 392 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,439 Speaker 1: adding more people into the conversation, you're only as strong 393 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: as the weakest, most ignorant person In the room. So 394 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: is that what's going to solve it for us? Because 395 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,159 Speaker 1: if you take the tribalism that we're living in right now, 396 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: it's faceless, right. You know, one group is watching one 397 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 1: set of news, one group is watching another. You're only 398 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: following this group on social media and that group. But 399 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 1: if more people sat at the table together on an 400 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: individual basis, you think we can solve more. How are 401 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 1: we gonna get to that table in towns all across 402 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: the country. I think that's already happening naturally on social media. 403 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 1: You know, the national divide as far as the world 404 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: national press goes. And I'm not putting this on the 405 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: presson I'm saying you have the national press, and you're right, 406 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: you have the divide following this and following this well 407 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 1: in each town you have Democrats and Republicans. You have 408 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 1: people that are following one or the other, but they're 409 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 1: still shopping and pulling lemons off the same shelf every 410 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 1: Monday together at the grocery store or you know, and 411 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 1: the right and they're like, what do you think about this? 412 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:24,680 Speaker 1: And wow, that's crazy? You know. I have conversations on serious, 413 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: serious topics with people that I know from back home 414 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: on both sides. Now, that are really good conversations that 415 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 1: we can always end agreeing to disagree. But the conversation happened. 416 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,919 Speaker 1: Still it still happened, which means you've broken that ground, 417 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 1: and I am begging you to keep having that conversation. 418 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: The reason I wanted to do this podcast is that 419 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: of a fear that more and more people aren't having conversations. 420 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 1: We need more people like you having them because if 421 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 1: you have respect and at the end of the day 422 00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:00,399 Speaker 1: can respectfully disagree, you can still live together. Well, I 423 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 1: don't always respectfully to disagree, but we're having the conversation. 424 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 1: It's happening. You're gonna see elections happen, things change. I mean, 425 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 1: think about some of the times. Can you imagine if 426 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 1: Martin Luther King had a Facebook page? I mean, can 427 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 1: you imagine if Congressman Lewis had a smartphone when he 428 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 1: crossed the bridge? And so back then, you know, you 429 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:31,360 Speaker 1: only had that little slot on the evening news. Now 430 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: we're moving much faster than the church likes. I'll tell 431 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: you what everybody thinks. We're not moving forward as the church. 432 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: If we're moving forward as the church, if the United 433 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: States is stuck right now, and we're not moving forward 434 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:47,919 Speaker 1: to them. We're moving way, way, way, way too fast now, 435 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: and I'd like to move it faster. And that's why 436 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:54,399 Speaker 1: we're having conversations like this. This is exactly why we 437 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: are having conversations just like this one. What I'm hearing 438 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,919 Speaker 1: from Sean is that no matter what happens to us, 439 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 1: or what circumstances we find ourselves in, we can forgive 440 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: you know what else we can do speak out, we 441 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 1: can make a difference, and if we listen to others, 442 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: we can have some empathy, and we can focus our 443 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:19,639 Speaker 1: anger not at an individual, but at the institutions that 444 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 1: propagate or protect those who actually do the harm. And 445 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: if we do that, then then maybe we can make 446 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,160 Speaker 1: those advance as a whole lot faster than we might think. 447 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to today's bonus episode, and thank 448 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 1: you for bringing an open mind and helping us create 449 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:50,880 Speaker 1: what are hopefully modern rules. That's it for today's episode. 450 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,119 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Stephanie Rule. A very very special thanks 451 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 1: to the extraordinary people who made this happen. My producers 452 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 1: Julie Brown, Samantha Ullen and and bar arc Audio, Michael 453 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 1: Biett for booking and wrangling the amazing guests who joined us, 454 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 1: Julian Weller for editing and bill plaques, Michael Azar and 455 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: Jacobo Penzo for their recording expertise. Special thanks to Steve 456 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 1: lick Tide, Barbara Rab, Jonathan Wald, Marie Dugo, Holly traz 457 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: Nikki Etre and Christina Everett are Executive producers are Conald 458 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,919 Speaker 1: Byrne and Mangesh Hatiga Door And of course, the men 459 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 1: who brought us all together, Chairman and CEO of I 460 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 1: Heart Media Bob Pittman and Chairman of NBC News Andy Lack. 461 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:32,920 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I 462 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to 463 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.