1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 2 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. In It's Saturday, 3 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:12,040 Speaker 1: time for a vault episode. This is going to be 4 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: part two of our Journey to the Sacred Mountain that 5 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:20,799 Speaker 1: began last Saturday. This episode originally aired on April nineteen. 6 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: We hope you enjoy it. Walk away quietly in any 7 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 1: direction and taste the freedom of the mountaineer. Comp out 8 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: among the grasses and the gentians of glacial meadows in 9 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 1: craggy garden nooks full of nature's darling's climb the mountains 10 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into 11 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow 12 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, 13 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: while cares will drop off like autumn leaves as age 14 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: comes on. One source of enjoyment after another is closed, 15 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: but Nature's sources never fail. I know that our bodies 16 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: were made to thrive only in pure air and the 17 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 1: scenes in which pure air is found. Welcome to Stuff 18 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:17,679 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind, a production of I Heeart Radios 19 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: How Stuff Works. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 20 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And 21 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 1: those quotes we just read were, of course from the 22 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: great John. You're one of the great priests of the 23 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: religion of the Mountains, absolutely a true American hero. I 24 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: say that without a shred of irony, un important individual 25 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: in the natural preservation efforts of the United States. And 26 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: I like these two quotes because he's he's getting into 27 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: the power and the awe of the mountains. And that 28 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: first quote, and in that second he's talking about the 29 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: air of the wilderness. And we're going to be discussing 30 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: the air of the wildern us in this our second 31 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: episode on Sacred Mountains. But I suppose we should we should, 32 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: of course refer you back to the first episode. If 33 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: you didn't listen to the first episode on Sacred Mountains, 34 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,959 Speaker 1: go back. That is the uh important first installment. But 35 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 1: let's catch everybody up to speed and what we chatted 36 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: about last time. Sure, well, last time we talked about 37 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: holy mountains from religious and cultural beliefs around the world 38 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 1: and common types of beliefs about holy mountains. We talked 39 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: about the idea of mountains as the homes of the 40 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: gods or as the bodies of gods themselves, as like 41 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 1: entrances to other worlds, as pillars that hold up the heavens, 42 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: as places of pilgrimage, as places where the gods once 43 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: were or still dwell or sleep. There's almost an infinite 44 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 1: array of ways in which mountains have been religiously significant, 45 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: and so we talked about some reasons that might be. 46 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 1: Of course, there are things having to do with perspective 47 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:58,639 Speaker 1: when one climbs a mountain and looks down at the earth. Uh, 48 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 1: there are there. There's just the sheer fact of its size, 49 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: I mean in a pretty basic sense. Yeah, and just 50 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 1: how important natural forms are and are the shaping of 51 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,679 Speaker 1: our cosmologies in our sense of self. Uh. We discussed 52 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 1: like the main points along these lines in the last episode. 53 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: We also, though, talked about stories expressed by many mountain climbers, 54 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: though certainly not only by mountain climbers, of hallucinations during 55 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: the journey of climbing a mountain, including the very common 56 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: third man syndrome. Uh. The experience of sensing another person 57 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: making a journey with you, who in fact is not 58 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: there right, And it's very often um, I would say, 59 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: a neutral apparition, Uh, you're help not a beneficial one. 60 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: So it's not like, oh, my goodness, there's a monster 61 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 1: beside me. It's more like, oh, well, there's uh. I 62 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: thought I was up here alone climbing this mountain, but 63 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: there's this this other fella, and that's comforting to know 64 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: that it's not just me. Yeah. We read a section 65 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: from an account by the mountaineer Frank Smythe, who wrote 66 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: of his experiences attempting and failing to summit Mount Everest 67 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: alone in nineteen thirty three, and he wrote in one 68 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: section of his account, quote, all the time that I 69 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: was climbing alone, I had a strong feeling that I 70 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: was accompanied by a second person. And then later I 71 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:24,039 Speaker 1: remember constantly glancing back over my shoulder. And once, when 72 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,040 Speaker 1: after reaching my highest point, I stopped to try and 73 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: eat some mint cake, I carefully divided it and turned 74 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: around with one half in my hand. It was almost 75 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: a shock to find no one to whom to give it. 76 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:38,920 Speaker 1: And of course there are also plenty of much more 77 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: recent reports to the same thing, people having strange experiences, delusions, hallucinations, 78 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: or at least apparently to you know, modern skeptical thinkers, hallucinations. 79 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: It's very possible if people had these experiences in the 80 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,359 Speaker 1: ancient world, or if they're just less skeptically minded, they 81 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: might think, you know, this was a real presence with 82 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 1: me on the mountain. There was something super natural happening 83 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: up there, right, there was something revolting about my mint 84 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: cake that drove the spirit away. Now, it's clear that 85 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:11,280 Speaker 1: very high altitudes can have a number of health effects 86 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: that could have neurological and psychological implications. These are generally 87 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: thought to be caused by the lower air pressure at 88 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,119 Speaker 1: higher altitudes. This is understood to be the major cause. 89 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: Though I think it's worth emphasizing that there are things 90 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: that are still not fully understood about altitude sickness. Absolutely, 91 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 1: and you know, there's a whole They've been numerous studies 92 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: over the years about individuals who are climatized to a 93 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: high altitude environments. Uh, that's something we could potentially come 94 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: back into an entire episode on. Yeah. But I think 95 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 1: one of the interesting things about altitude sickness that we 96 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 1: still don't fully understand is why it affects different people 97 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: so differently. Like you can't always predict whether a person 98 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: will experience altitude sickness at a certain altitude, so the 99 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 1: generally understood major cause of altitude sickness seems to be 100 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: the lower air pressure means less oxygen is compressed in 101 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 1: the atmosphere because you're up higher, so there's less atmosphere 102 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,479 Speaker 1: sitting on the area you're breathing, right, And it was 103 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: an idea that we initially explored in the under pressure episode. Yes, 104 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: and so this means you literally get less oxygen with 105 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: each breath, and of course you need oxygen to survive. 106 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 1: If you're getting less of it with each breath you take, 107 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: you can begin to suffer negative consequences in the body 108 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: and the brain. And meanwhile, you are perhaps climbing a mountain. Yeah, 109 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: so you're exerting yourself anyway, but it can happen even 110 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,280 Speaker 1: without exertion. That that's important to note. And exactly what 111 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,039 Speaker 1: altitude it sets in varies a good bit from person 112 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 1: to person, Like we were just talking about, a reasonable 113 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: figure at which a significant percent of people will display 114 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: symptoms is sometimes cited to be eight thousand feet or 115 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 1: but for each individual person, it's a toss up. You 116 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: individually might be affected at a lower altitude or a 117 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 1: higher altitude. It's it's hard to know for sure. If 118 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 1: you haven't been there before. Um, it's usually said to 119 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:02,600 Speaker 1: be worse if you ascend quickly and don't give your 120 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: body time to adapt to lower air pressure at higher altitude. 121 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: So that is one thing. If you're expecting to be 122 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: like hiking at a high altitude, it's good to give 123 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: yourself time to hang out at high altitude without exerting yourself. First, 124 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: always be wary if you're aboard the starship Enterprise and 125 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: you teleport down to a mountaintop, teleport to the lower 126 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: mountain area first. Yeah, base camps are still important, guys. 127 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: But some common symptoms of like mild to moderate altitude 128 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: sickness would be the kinds of things you would first 129 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: of all, the kinds of things you would expect with 130 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: less access to oxygen. So maybe shortness of breath, breathing 131 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 1: harder with less physical exertion, uh, faster heart rate. You 132 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: know your heart's beating hard, is trying to oxygenate your tissues. 133 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 1: You're just not getting enough oxygen in each breath, and 134 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: so you know you'd expect those kind of things. But 135 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: also you can experience nausea, dizziness, or lightheadedness, and it 136 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: can mess with your natural drives such as for sleep 137 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: and for food, So you can have loss of appetite, 138 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: headache and that kind of thing. In much more severe 139 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: cases of altitude sickness, you can have changes in the 140 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: color of the skin, You can have tightness in the chest. 141 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: You can have mental effects like you know, a loss 142 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 1: of a loss of awareness, loss of coherence, or confusion. 143 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:24,119 Speaker 1: There can even be coughing up of blood or loss 144 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: of consciousness. And there there are subsequent life threatening conditions 145 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 1: that can come out of altitude sickness. One is known 146 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 1: as high altitude pulmonary a demo or hape h ape, 147 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: where altitude sickness leads to a build up of fluid 148 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: in the lungs. This, if you experience it, is life 149 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: threatening and you should act on this immediately. Another is 150 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: high altitude cerebral ademo or hat, when altitude sickness leads 151 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 1: to swelling of the brain, which is very dangerous and 152 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 1: of course can cause all kinds of mental disturbances. And 153 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: so obviously one question we might have is if people 154 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:02,319 Speaker 1: often report seeing things that aren't there in the mountains, 155 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: to what extent can these be traced to known psychological 156 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:12,199 Speaker 1: or not psychological, known physiological conditions like cerebral dima. He 157 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 1: absolutely and and as we mentioned in the last episode, 158 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:17,839 Speaker 1: you know, we're not looking at this is like this 159 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: the soul uh cause or the soul um reason that 160 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 1: one has mountain myths, but it could certainly a potential 161 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 1: uh thing that augments them or feeds them in some cases. No, 162 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,679 Speaker 1: as we mentioned previously in the other episodes, there's no 163 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 1: way that say, psychological disturbances as a result of you know, 164 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: less oxygen reaching the brain or something like that could 165 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: explain all the myths. So one reason for that is 166 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: that many holy mountains aren't high enough to cause any 167 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 1: altitude related symptoms. I mean, there are holy mountains that 168 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 1: are just a few hundred meters high. So it's obvious 169 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: that you know, these are these are geographical landmarks and 170 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:00,319 Speaker 1: they serve you know, they represent things to people. Doesn't 171 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 1: have to be that somebody went up on there and 172 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: had a hallucination that caused them to found a religion 173 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: or a myth around the mountain. Though, we do want 174 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: to point out that it's possible that in higher mountains, 175 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: people going up into these altitudes could have contributed to beliefs, 176 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 1: you know, strange supernatural beliefs about some mountains, right, and 177 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 1: or the idea that in general, mountains provide some sort 178 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: of uh, you know, loosening of the veil between this 179 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:29,959 Speaker 1: world and the next. Yeah, that's a great way to 180 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: put it. So I want to call attention to one 181 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 1: recent paper, in particular in the journal Psychological Medicine that 182 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,079 Speaker 1: deals with these phenomena of people high up in the 183 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:42,199 Speaker 1: mountains having strange and anomalous experiences. This was by Katerina 184 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: Hoofner at All called isolated Psychosis during Exposure to very 185 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 1: high and extreme altitude Characterization of a new medical entity, 186 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: and this was published in So the authors here have 187 00:10:55,480 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 1: examined about eighty three documented cases among reports from alpine expeditions, 188 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 1: and they believe they've identified a new independent condition that's 189 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 1: separate from altitude sickness and separate from any existing mental disorder. 190 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: It's called isolated high altitude psychosis. Now, of course, psychosis 191 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: is a set of symptoms and luty, I have, right, wait, 192 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 1: what you can call it? I have? I have, I have. Oh, 193 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: I didn't even think about an acronym I have. Yeah, 194 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:30,439 Speaker 1: this is I have the International House of Psychosis. Yeah, 195 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: psychosis is a set of symptoms including quote hallucinations, delusions, 196 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 1: disorganized speech, abnormal psychomotor behavior, and negative symptoms, and additionally 197 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 1: impaired cognition, depression, and mania. So it's characteristic of of 198 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: underlying conditions like schizophrenia, but can also occur in isolation 199 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:53,199 Speaker 1: due to a number of inciting stressors. You know. One 200 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 1: of the things is people often think that hallucinations can 201 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: only occur if somebody has an underlying mental illness, but 202 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: people who don't have an underlying mental illness sometimes experienced 203 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: hallucinations just depending on like fleeting, stresses and things that 204 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: are affecting them. Oh yeah, absolutely. Um. Oliver Sachs's book 205 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: Hallucinations is always a fabulous source on all of this 206 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 1: because he you know, he discusses hallucinogens a little bit 207 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 1: in there, but but for the most part, it's it's 208 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: all these various other causes are in play, right. So 209 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:25,319 Speaker 1: the authors examined a list of documented cases of mountaineering, 210 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: and they looked for signs of high altitude psychosis, and 211 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: then they cross reference this to see whether there were 212 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 1: always concurrent symptoms of physiological distress from high altitudes, such 213 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: as high altitude cerebral a demo or hey. Obviously you 214 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: can see why if the brain is swelling with fluid, 215 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,959 Speaker 1: that might cause things like hallucinations and mental disturbances. So 216 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: from previous studies, we know that how often psychosis occurs 217 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: at high altitude seems to vary a lot depending on 218 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: who's doing the counting and what criteria they use. So 219 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: this is un fortunately a case where the numbers are 220 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: not very solid. They seem to be all over the place, 221 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: like Woo at All in two thousand six found that 222 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 1: there were hallucinations in three percent of cases, with Hace. 223 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 1: Wilson at All in two thousand nine reported hallucinations in 224 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:19,839 Speaker 1: thirty two percent of climbers above seven thousand, five hundred meters, 225 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: which is a totally different criterion than the last thing, obviously, 226 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: so we're not going apple stapples here. We're just seeing 227 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: what there is to to see about hallucinations at altitude. 228 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 1: Brewger at All in n quote found hallucinatory experiences in 229 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 1: seven of eight, or eighty eight percent of world class 230 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:41,199 Speaker 1: climbers who reached altitudes above eight thousand, five hundred meters 231 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 1: without supplementary oxygen. Obviously, this is a pretty wild fluctuation, 232 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: and I don't know for sure, but I guess the 233 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: discrepancy here has to do with the methods they're using 234 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: to select cases in these different studies. Right, you'd probably 235 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: get very different numbers if you just check to see 236 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: if climbers self reports psychosis versus say, proactively asking them 237 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: if they've had psychosis. Yeah, this is one of those 238 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: spreads of numbers that you know brings to mind the whole, Like, 239 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: you know, it just depends on how you torture the numbers, 240 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 1: what kind of story you're going to get out of 241 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 1: them exactly. I mean, I think one of the problems 242 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: here is that we don't have anything consistent to work 243 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: with going into the study. So so they had to 244 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: try to come up with with the method of their own, 245 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: and they know it's not perfect, but it's just to 246 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: sort of get a rough idea of where to start 247 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: looking at this problem. So in the present study, the 248 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 1: authors found first of all, that psychosis of some kind 249 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 1: often happens when you're at high altitude. Their sample, which 250 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: they did from consulting existing literature, yielded a result that 251 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: found quote hallucinations occurred in forty two percent or thirty 252 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: five out of eighty three of the episodes that they 253 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: surveyed at a mean altitude of seven thousand, two hundred 254 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: and eighty meters, and of these episodes, thirty four percent 255 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: or twelve out of thirty five. Uh. The hallucinations occurred 256 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 1: at the same time that there are signs that the 257 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 1: person had a cerebral demo or HACE. They determined that 258 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: high altitude psychosis can happen together with HACE or with 259 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: other physiological effects, or without them. Therefore, they concluded that 260 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: isolated high altitude psychosis or eyehap your coining should be 261 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: considered an independent psychological condition related to high altitude and 262 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: not just as a possible symptom of altitude sickness. And finally, 263 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: they concluded that high altitude psychosis is associated with an 264 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: increased risk of accidents or near accidents. That's kind of 265 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: not surprising. Uh. Now they propose some hypothetical causes for 266 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: these non HACE cases of high altitude psychosis. One would 267 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: be like social and sensory deprivation in conjunction with psychological stress. 268 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: Stress is often a common inciting factor for people who 269 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: don't otherwise have him into illness to have hallucinations. Right, 270 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: and then, of course, it's so varied depending on how 271 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: much stress an individual is going to have in a 272 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: given circumstance, and then how that stress is affecting their 273 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: performance and their mental capacity. Yeah, and then you add 274 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: social and sensory deprivation to that. They don't have anybody 275 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: else there to talk to if their climbing alone, or 276 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: or they have limited numbers of people there with them. Uh, 277 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: their view of the world, you know, there might be 278 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: a lot less like color and stuff than they'd normally 279 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: be seeing. Another potential, uh cause they site is quote 280 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: dysfunction of the temporal parietal junction and angular gyrus due 281 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 1: to hypoxia, hypoglycemia and cold. And then finally they say, well, 282 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: another possibility is just that HACE is going on in 283 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: these cases and somehow it's being under diagnosed in the field. 284 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: Maybe a lot of these people experiencing psychosis do have 285 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: hate and just for some reason, the normal symptoms are 286 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 1: not showing up and being recorded. This is I mean 287 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: especially true if you're going it alone, right or or 288 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: even if you you have a climbing partner like you 289 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: you may not I guess be having um just a 290 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 1: regular check in a about your your your your feelings 291 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: of physical and mental health. Yeah, and of course cerebral 292 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,439 Speaker 1: adema is like that, that's really dangerous, you know, like 293 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: if if you have this, you should be getting treated 294 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: for it. That's not like a time to say, Okay, 295 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: I'll just power through and try going up to the summit. Now, 296 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: this is interesting going back to what Frank Smith and 297 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:21,119 Speaker 1: the others have talked about with with their experience of 298 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 1: what's known as third Man syndrome. The authors here found 299 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: that when climbers reported perceptual disturbances of various kinds, the majority, 300 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 1: though not all of them, but the majority of them 301 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 1: were either neutral or even helpful and comforting. For example, 302 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:41,159 Speaker 1: a hallucinated climbing companion who protects and guides them, or 303 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: a voice encouraging them or warning them of danger. Now, 304 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: just because the majority of these perceptual disturbances and hallucinations 305 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 1: are positive in nature or at least neutral, doesn't mean 306 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 1: we shouldn't worry about them. Since hallucinations high altitude seemed 307 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 1: correlated with a risk of accidents, it's not hard to 308 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 1: see why that would be. Climbers at high altitude should 309 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: be aware that psychosis is very possible and should develop 310 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 1: defensive strategies for what happens if it sets in if 311 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,400 Speaker 1: you think you see somebody that you don't remember being there. 312 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: Otherwise you should have like procedures in place for that, 313 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: like reality testing. Now, on the other hand, about the study, 314 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 1: obviously there appears to be some weakness in the selection 315 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:24,439 Speaker 1: criteria for cases. But I guess in this kind of 316 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 1: study you're limited by the fact that you can't just 317 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: stick people, you know, random test subjects at the top 318 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: of a mountain and see if they undergo psychosis. Uh, 319 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 1: they're they're Also the authors point out there is survivor 320 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,159 Speaker 1: bias at play, right, We're hearing the stories of people 321 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 1: who were able to report their stories, some people who 322 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:45,680 Speaker 1: did not succumb on the mountain or experience some sort 323 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,440 Speaker 1: of a fatal accident, or didn't have somebody with them 324 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 1: who got to report what happened. Yeah, they say, for 325 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: future studies, you you could perhaps simulate some conditions like 326 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 1: this in chambers that simulate altitude with low oxygen or 327 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: low atmospheric pressure. Also, you don't need to have a 328 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: huge or hugely random number of cases if you just 329 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 1: want to establish that sometimes people report psychosis at high altitudes. 330 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 1: With no record of altitude sickness or cute sickness like 331 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 1: he s now. We mentioned already that that one of 332 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,640 Speaker 1: the other factors here is that not all sacred mountains 333 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 1: are enormous skyscraping um uh, you know, monuments to the 334 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: sky God, right, not all. Most sacred mountains are probably 335 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 1: not even tall enough for people to be reaching the 336 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 1: same kinds of altitudes that are in this study, though 337 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 1: some are. The authors your point out that most of 338 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:40,640 Speaker 1: these reports of symptoms reminiscent of psychosis among mountain climbers 339 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: come from very high and extreme altitudes, so like thirty 340 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 1: five to fifty meters or even above. So there're gonna 341 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: be tons of holy mountains around the world that that 342 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 1: do not even reach these altitudes. Nobody could could climb 343 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 1: high enough to be at the altitudes like the ones 344 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: being studied in this in this research, so i'd say 345 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:06,919 Speaker 1: whether the physiological or psychological effects of altitude contribute to 346 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: these types of religious beliefs in some cases, especially at 347 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,880 Speaker 1: higher peaks, It's hard to know for sure, but absolutely 348 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:17,160 Speaker 1: it seems possible and even attempting. Origin story for some 349 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 1: holy mountains and sacred peaks around the world yeah, one thing, 350 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 1: and I may come back to this, the whole idea 351 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 1: that most of these reported cases of another of this 352 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:30,199 Speaker 1: uh you know, this third man or what have you, 353 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: is going to be neutral or beneficial. And indeed, when 354 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 1: we look at all these different myths about holy mountains, 355 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: um is, so many of them are about like the 356 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:45,880 Speaker 1: gods living there um. Like I wanted to find more 357 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: mountain monsters. I truly did. I'm always looking for the monsters. 358 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: And not to say there are not mountain monsters, certainly 359 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,640 Speaker 1: there um. There are traditions of things coming down from 360 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:59,439 Speaker 1: the mountains, crampits, etcetera. But it kind of seems like 361 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 1: they're they're weighted in favor of at least the neutral deities, 362 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: neutral spirits and what have you, uh, and and even 363 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:12,640 Speaker 1: beneficial beings as opposed to the monsters of say um 364 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 1: Mount doom Um or the lonely mountain. And Tolkien, well, 365 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: maybe we can. We will explore mountain monsters a little 366 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 1: bit today, but maybe we can explore it more in 367 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: the future. I'm just now I didn't think about this 368 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 1: when we were preparing, but I just now remembered the 369 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,719 Speaker 1: mountain trolls of Iceland. Oh, that's right. All right. Well, 370 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:31,159 Speaker 1: on that note, let's take a quick break. When we 371 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,160 Speaker 1: come back, we'll look at another study and we'll move 372 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: on to a particular mountain creature that, yes, you might qualify, 373 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 1: you might describe as a monster. Thank, alright, we're back, 374 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 1: all right, what have we gotten next to? Robert? All right? 375 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 1: So I was looking at a study this is one 376 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 1: that you found. Then I ended up diving into it. 377 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: This was yeah, yeah, yeah, I was interested. I didn't 378 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: know about this one because it seemed like some of them. Well, well, 379 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:58,400 Speaker 1: you describe it and then we can discuss. Ok. Yeah. 380 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,919 Speaker 1: This one was titled why revel Lations have occurred on 381 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 1: Mountains Linking mystical experiences and cognitive neuroscience. This was published 382 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:12,640 Speaker 1: in Medical Hypotheses from Autoto back It Old Land, SIB 383 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: and blank ep quote. Here's a quote from the piece. Quote. 384 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: Prolonged stay at high altitudes, especially in social deprivation, may 385 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 1: also lead to prefrontal lobe dysfunctions such as low resistance 386 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 1: to stress and loss of inhibition. Based on these phenomenological, functional, 387 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:33,120 Speaker 1: and neural findings, we suggest that exposure to altitudes might 388 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:37,359 Speaker 1: contribute to the induction of revelation. Experiences and might further 389 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: our understanding of the mountain metaphor and religion. So they're 390 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: really going for it on this one, and they point 391 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 1: to the major revelations in the three major monotheistic religions. Uh. 392 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: In Judaism, the burning bush uh this is where God 393 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:56,880 Speaker 1: speaks through the burning bush. This is from Exodus. Christianity, 394 00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:00,199 Speaker 1: there's the transfiguration from the Book of Math to you. 395 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: This is a in which Jesus's divine nature is revealed 396 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 1: to onlookers. And then in Islam there's also the point 397 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 1: where Allah speaks to the prophet Muhammad, and that is 398 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: also like a mountain revelation. Now, one of the problems 399 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 1: here is getting into the idea of insufficient altitudes, right Yeah. 400 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: So I'd seen the study brought up on a science 401 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: blog somewhere, and I thought, um, it was interesting because 402 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 1: it's touching on this question we're asking. But I saw 403 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 1: it in the context of it being ridiculed because the 404 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: main mountains that it's talking about aren't really that hot, 405 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: you know, So they're not like super high mountains that 406 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 1: would be likely to cause altitude sickness, right right, Yeah, 407 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: they're not dealing with him. Alayan peaks here, right, Um, 408 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 1: this is what the paper says though about the idea 409 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: of moderate altitudes. They said, although the revelations discussed here 410 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: had occurred in moderate altitudes, it may be assumed that 411 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: in subjects who are prone to mystical experiences, already moderate 412 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: altitudes are sufficient to trigger revelation like experiences and revelations. 413 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: So the argument here, then, I guess is, is, first 414 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 1: of all, you know, not not everyone's gonna have the 415 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,879 Speaker 1: same reaction to high altitude like we've discussed, and that 416 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:20,400 Speaker 1: even moderate high altitude they're arguing, could be sufficient. Potentially, 417 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: this is one of those more research needed areas, but 418 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:29,639 Speaker 1: it could be enough to push people's minds toward mystical experiences, 419 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: especially if those minds are already uh susceptible to say, 420 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: hallucination to voices or to the experience of the supernatural. 421 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:46,639 Speaker 1: And then the the the remembrance of supernatural experience. You know, 422 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 1: it's funny that they focus on like the Abrahamic monotheistic religions, Judaism, Christianity, 423 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 1: and Islam, because in the last episode, you remember, we 424 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 1: had a discussion about how it seems to me that 425 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 1: um that actually sacred geography plays less of a role 426 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:06,920 Speaker 1: in the Abrahamic religions than it does in many other 427 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: religions around the world. Whereas in in the Abrahamic religions, 428 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: it seems that when a place is wholly, it's usually 429 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 1: because the idea something important happened there, whereas in many 430 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: other religions around the world, the place itself has some 431 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 1: religious significance. The the land itself, the mountain is the 432 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: home of the gods, or is the body of a God, 433 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,919 Speaker 1: or is sacred in its own right, and not just 434 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: because of something that happened there. Right, you know, I 435 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:36,439 Speaker 1: don't imagine there could be this is room for a 436 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,719 Speaker 1: lot of theological discussion, uh, you know, in each of 437 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:43,159 Speaker 1: these three religions. But but yeah, but all three of 438 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: these even as we as we were mentioning them, uh, 439 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 1: we were mentioning the event they were mentioning in the paper, 440 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 1: the event that took place, the meeting of of an 441 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: individual in the divine, for instance, in the case of 442 00:25:54,080 --> 00:26:00,360 Speaker 1: the the uh the Jewish and Islamic examples. So at 443 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,679 Speaker 1: this point I want to turn to um a particular 444 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,399 Speaker 1: mountain entity because I think it lines up with some 445 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: of what uh we were just discussing here, and that's 446 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 1: that entity, is the yetti everybody's favorite cooler. No, not 447 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: the cooler. I mean unless the cooler has an actual 448 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: Yeti in it. That'd be a good trick for discovered one. 449 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,399 Speaker 1: What was it the Was there somebody in Georgia who 450 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,200 Speaker 1: claimed they had a big foot and like a beer 451 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,399 Speaker 1: cooler and it was like a freezer? Right? Yeah, it 452 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: was a whole the whole thing about ten or eleven 453 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: years ago. Yeah. I remember it well because for one 454 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,439 Speaker 1: fleeting second it made me wonder, are we about to 455 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: know that there is a sasquatch? And of course that 456 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 1: turned out to not be the case. It's like a 457 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: costume or something. Right now, the yetie in modern Western culture, 458 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: it has become just kind of a Himalayan variant of 459 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: the sasquatch. You know, if I say yetie, you may 460 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,160 Speaker 1: just picture a big foot or skunk gape, whatever the 461 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,919 Speaker 1: regional variation of this creature is. And I do think 462 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: that is important as we're moving forward to to think 463 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 1: about the fact that there are variations of the wild 464 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: man uh being in various cultures. Basically like a bipedal 465 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: creature covered in hair that is seen all around the world, 466 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,919 Speaker 1: but has distinct origins in each case, right right, Yes, 467 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: But I was looking. I wanted to get a little 468 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 1: like a better snapshot of the this ape like beast 469 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 1: um as far as like Himalayan traditions go. So I 470 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:34,120 Speaker 1: ran across a very very insightful piece titled Boutanese Tales 471 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 1: of the Yettie by Kunzang Codin. Tales of the creature 472 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 1: exist through the Himalayan region, and uh. The author points 473 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,479 Speaker 1: to the different names that are given to this entity. 474 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:49,120 Speaker 1: So into Tibet, there's gangs Me or glacier man. There's 475 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 1: me Champo or strong man, and meet chin Po or 476 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 1: great man Um. The sherpas Uh called it Yetie. The 477 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 1: lep Shaws call it chew moon or snow goblin. I 478 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,679 Speaker 1: like that one, or Hello Moon or mountain goblin. And 479 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: Nepaul there's Nilemu or Banmanchi. He didn't provide a translation 480 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,239 Speaker 1: translation for those, but I'm assuming some treatment on these 481 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: various ideas, you know. Uh. And then the mutiniese say, 482 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 1: me goy or strongman are also gred po. So you know, 483 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: we get this idea of something like figure of of 484 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 1: savage cold strength with possible. Um, you know, Goblin e 485 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 1: qualities as well. So Childen writes that the megy idea 486 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 1: here it dates back to the pre Buddhist Bond writings. 487 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: The UH is the pre Buddhist animist religion. I believe 488 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: we mentioned this briefly in the last episode. Yeah, the 489 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: indigenous religion of Tibet. It came up because Mount Kai 490 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: Loosh or Mount Kailassa in UH in the Himalayas is 491 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: a peak that is holy, not just to Hindus who 492 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 1: believe uh, some of whom believe that the Lord Shiva 493 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: and Parvati dwell on top of Mount Kailash, but it's 494 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: also holly to some Buddhists, chains and members of the 495 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: Bond religion, the Tibetan indigenous religion and uh and apparently 496 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 1: some Bond rituals call for the blood of Amigoy slain 497 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 1: with a sharp weapon. Whoa, yeah, so yeah, so this 498 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 1: is a pre existing idea. But then you get some 499 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: Westerners involved, right, and then you get this idea exported 500 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 1: and uh and and reignited in the Western mind. Uh. 501 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: So British traveler William Hugh, Knight of the Royals, the 502 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 1: Royal Society's club recorded a Yeti siding in nineteen o 503 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 1: three on his way back to India from Tibet. And 504 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,479 Speaker 1: then there was another siding in eighteen twenty five by 505 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 1: a Westerner by a Greek zoologist in a Tombazi, who 506 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 1: described it like this. Unquestionably, the figure in outline was 507 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 1: exactly like a human being walking upright and stopping occasionally 508 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: to uproot or pull. It's some dwarf rhododendron bushes. It 509 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 1: showed up dark against the snow, and as far as 510 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: I could make out, wore no cloth. And then later 511 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: you had print sightings and UH and so forth in 512 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties that helped popularize the idea of the 513 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: Yeti in the West. UM various films UH. Certainly television 514 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: series like In Search Of helped to contribute to this idea, 515 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 1: and today the interest interest in the Yetti continues, but 516 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: there remains no proof that the creature exists. In fact, 517 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 1: examination of preserved evidence of Yetti's tends to lean toward 518 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 1: the intentional or accidental misinterpretation of of another animal or 519 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 1: its handiwork. So DNA work from the past few years, 520 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 1: for instance, points duh you know directly to at Asian 521 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 1: bears as the source of the samples. So in all 522 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 1: of this and any anytime we're talking about a YETI sighting, 523 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 1: even in like the Himalayan region. You know, we can't 524 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: discount hoaxes and various other reasons, but we when we 525 00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 1: consider the potential effects of hypoxia and uh and and 526 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: these other like high altitude situations, which all I think 527 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 1: in some degree or related to hypox Yeah, you know, 528 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 1: we we might be talking more of a full blown 529 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: hallucination and then it lower altitudes, the effect could just 530 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: be enough to make the individual you know, see what 531 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 1: they want to see when they glimpse a normal animal 532 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 1: or another human being. So I found this idea of 533 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 1: first of all, there is I did see this idea 534 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 1: echoed in um Searching for the Yetty Mysterious Monsters two 535 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: thousand fourteen, book by General for Rithkin. Now this is 536 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 1: a kid's book. I want to be about this. So 537 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 1: you normally we don't cite a lot of of of 538 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: of kids book, but this one was. Actually I was 539 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 1: reading through it. It's pretty good. Uh. It seems to 540 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: to to balance the sort of mystical what if with 541 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 1: a lot of legitimate skepticism. Uh. And then also I 542 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 1: did see this idea also echoed in a couple of 543 00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: journals and books such as High Altitude Medical Science by 544 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 1: you Dah Kushma and Vocal. And I think there is 545 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 1: a lot of you know, there a lot of similarities between, 546 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 1: for instance, that that yetty account that I read earlier 547 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 1: and accounts of a third man right like here there 548 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 1: was some other creature there and uh, you know, it 549 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 1: wasn't human, but it was. It was hanging out, it 550 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: was there. I glimpsed it. And then once you have 551 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: this and and this is of course on top of 552 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: a pre existing idea of there being some sort of 553 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 1: a yetty creature in the mountains. Uh. And then once 554 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 1: this idea gets becomes a part of of Western culture 555 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 1: as well, then there's more room to misinterpret the the 556 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: evidence or even uh, your senses. Now, I wonder if 557 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 1: the if like a psychological thing kind of like the 558 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 1: the climbing companion, the third man syndrome is going on here, 559 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 1: what do you think it might be that would cause 560 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 1: people to see a bipedal human like creature covered in 561 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: hair as opposed to seeing you know, another just another 562 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: human dress like them or to seeing like a dead 563 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 1: relative or something, you know, one of these common hallucinations 564 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 1: of comforting figures. Well, on the hair thing, I think 565 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: certainly of one glimpse to bear that could throw you off. 566 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: I mean, if you've ever seen a bear in the 567 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 1: in the flesh, you know it can be this weird, 568 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 1: surreal and frightening experience. I mean, hopefully a little frightening, 569 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 1: because as far as I'm concerned, if you encounter a 570 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 1: bear and you don't have like a certain amount of 571 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: fear that you're doing it wrong. Oh, I think there 572 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: are good reasons why we see bears as objects of 573 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: prehistoric religions. I mean, I think it's quite clear that 574 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 1: that bear worship in various forms goes back a long way. 575 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: That's one of those where it's kind of obvious why 576 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: that would happen. Is this kind of like too many people. 577 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: The bear would clearly seem to be like the king 578 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 1: of nature. Yeah, this base that can also rise up 579 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: on two legs and stand like us, that is seemingly 580 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 1: slow and lethargic, but then full of inner g and ferocity. 581 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 1: That also we got into this in our Winter People 582 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: episode a couple of years back. A creature than in 583 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 1: some cases uh digs its own grave and seems to 584 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 1: die and then re emerge with life in the spring. Yeah. Yeah, 585 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 1: it does seem quite mystical. You can totally see why 586 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 1: bear would be a thing that you would be, you know, 587 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,799 Speaker 1: afraid to speak its name, speak it's it's dangerous holy name. 588 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,520 Speaker 1: And uh and why if you saw one out in 589 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 1: the wild, yeah, you you might think you'd had some 590 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,399 Speaker 1: kind of other worldly encounter. All right, Well, on that note, 591 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 1: let's leave the jettie and take one more break and 592 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 1: we come back. We'll continue to discuss the topic. Thank you, 593 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,359 Speaker 1: all right, we're back. Now. We've been discussing our records 594 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 1: of delusions, hallucinations and other just various strange sightings and 595 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 1: encounters that seem to occur often at high altitude. Some 596 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 1: possible explanations for what might be going on physiologically, neurologically, 597 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 1: psychologically there, but we're gonna continue with this now. Yeah. 598 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: So really a couple of other just to examples of 599 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: not mountain climbers, but individuals encountering some sort of phantom stranger. Well, 600 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 1: there was a case of uh, Sir Ernest Shackleton, um 601 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 1: he uh uh he encountered such an apparition. Also, Antarctic 602 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 1: explore Peter Hillary Um actually encountered a presence that manifested 603 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 1: as the double of his dead mother. Oh yeah, the 604 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 1: whole ancestors appearing. Yeah, which which is important to to 605 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 1: think think of when when we're thinking about the mountains 606 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 1: as a potential, uh you know, place where one can 607 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 1: encounter the spirits of the departed. Um. So, as I 608 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 1: was reading around about about this, I ran across a 609 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:46,319 Speaker 1: Scientific American article from on the since presence effect. And 610 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,319 Speaker 1: this was from Michael Schermer, always a great source to 611 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:53,480 Speaker 1: turn to four discussions of paranormal experiences because he is 612 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 1: an individual who has has had paranormal experience. I didn't know. Yeah, 613 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,960 Speaker 1: it was, if I am remembering correctly, it was like 614 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 1: a like a cycling marathon he was on. It was, 615 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 1: you know, it was like a strenuous exercise and then 616 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,400 Speaker 1: he ended up like seeing an alien. But it was 617 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,880 Speaker 1: because of like something he'd been watching previously. He's written 618 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,280 Speaker 1: about it um quite a bit. But you know, applying 619 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 1: the skeptical mindset and then understanding how hallucinations occur, uh, 620 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,240 Speaker 1: you know, how we think about the hallucinations after they occur. 621 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,759 Speaker 1: Takes all of this into account. So um he he 622 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:29,879 Speaker 1: touched on all of this, and he pointed to four 623 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,919 Speaker 1: or so scientific explanations. Uh. That that that, he says, 624 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: really really get to the heart of what's going on 625 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:40,839 Speaker 1: when when people like this encounter um uh some sort 626 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 1: of spectral apparition or a third man, et cetera. First 627 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:48,080 Speaker 1: of all, isolation triggers the mind to hallucinate the normal 628 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 1: feeling we get when we're working or traveling among other people, 629 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,839 Speaker 1: which seems to be a standard here. Uh. Then the 630 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:59,360 Speaker 1: rational cortical control over emotions shuts down due to oxygen deprivation, 631 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: sleep deprivation, or exhaustion, and this opens the door for 632 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:07,040 Speaker 1: inner voices and imaginary companions. Next, he says, are temporal 633 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:09,920 Speaker 1: low body schema. This is the brain's image of our 634 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,200 Speaker 1: body and what it's doing is tricked into thinking you 635 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,640 Speaker 1: have a double, um, and ever up for a game 636 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,440 Speaker 1: of rationalization and story making. The brain then constructs a 637 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:23,719 Speaker 1: plausible explanation for this double's presence, like there's another person. Uh, 638 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: there's another human being that's covered in furs. Uh and 639 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 1: they're next to me. Oh, well, I guess that is 640 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,279 Speaker 1: another mountain climber. Likewise, though, I could see where this 641 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,239 Speaker 1: would be exactly the kind of thing that could be 642 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 1: misinterpreted as a yetty, right, because if you're climbing a 643 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,279 Speaker 1: mountain in the Himalayas, you're probably bundled up head to toe. 644 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 1: You probably don't look like a low altitude human anymore. 645 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 1: Then there's the mind schema. This is our psychological sense 646 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 1: of self, and it's simply coordinating independent neural networks to 647 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,319 Speaker 1: solve the problem with survival and extreme situations. And the 648 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 1: hallucination comes out of its function of making us feel 649 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,759 Speaker 1: like we're a single mind. Ah yeah, uh. But then oh, 650 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 1: on the on the sleep deprivation, uh situation. He uh. 651 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 1: He points to Charles A. Lindbergh's Transatlantic flight UM and 652 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:14,720 Speaker 1: Shermer quotes his writings, quote, the fuselage behind me becomes 653 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 1: filled with ghostly presences, vaguely outlined forms, transparent moving writing, 654 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 1: waitless with me in this plane, conversing and advising on 655 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:28,360 Speaker 1: my flight, discussing problems of my navigation, reassuring me, giving 656 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 1: me messages of importance unattainable in ordinary life. UM. Shermer 657 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 1: also shared that his own brother in law, man by 658 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:42,000 Speaker 1: the him of Fred zeal Or Zile experienced a sense 659 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:45,879 Speaker 1: presence on both of his everest climbs. The first case 660 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 1: involved frostbite and the lack of oxygen, and the second 661 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:53,640 Speaker 1: entailed his collapse from dehydration and hypoxia. Quote telling Lee, 662 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,360 Speaker 1: when I asked his opinion as a medical doctor, impossible 663 00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:00,840 Speaker 1: hemispheric differences to account for such phenomena, Fred noted both 664 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 1: times the sense was on my right side, perhaps related 665 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 1: to my being left handed. The sense presence maybe the 666 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 1: left hemisphere interpreter's explanation for right hemisphere anomali. Oh, this 667 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,160 Speaker 1: takes us back to our split brain episodes. That the 668 00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,719 Speaker 1: idea of the the interpreter. Now normally this would be 669 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 1: the left hemisphere interpreter. This Michael Gazaniga's idea of the 670 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 1: interpreter being this function in the brain that sort of 671 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:31,879 Speaker 1: ties together disparate neural phenomena into one experience that that 672 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:35,839 Speaker 1: we sense as a single, unified whole and sort of 673 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,160 Speaker 1: tells a story that makes it all part of the 674 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 1: same game. Where in fact, you know, the hemispheres, as 675 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,880 Speaker 1: was shown in the split brain experiments, can behave quite 676 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:49,040 Speaker 1: independently of one another. Yeah, but but we've got this 677 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 1: thing that Gazaniga calls the interpreter that says, no, no, no, 678 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:56,600 Speaker 1: that's all you. It's just you. So two things come 679 00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:58,839 Speaker 1: to mind and discussing all of this. First of all, 680 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:02,680 Speaker 1: is I'm all anytime we discuss altitudes and pressure, I'm 681 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,960 Speaker 1: reminded of the fact that human beings are not a 682 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,719 Speaker 1: creature that evolved to thrive on the Earth. They're they're 683 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 1: a creature that that evolved to thrive in a very 684 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 1: thin atmospheric layer on the Earth, and and then only 685 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,280 Speaker 1: within certain ranges. And when we get out of those ranges, 686 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,920 Speaker 1: when we get out of there are layer that we 687 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:26,839 Speaker 1: we thrive in, we can run into problems. The other 688 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 1: thing I'm reminded of is, Joe, have you ever been 689 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:33,040 Speaker 1: to a like a children's musical performance, preferably a band 690 00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:37,480 Speaker 1: or an orchestra. I've been in that performance. I've been 691 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,160 Speaker 1: to one too. So you know how ideally if everybody's 692 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:44,400 Speaker 1: doing doing their job and the you know, the conductor's 693 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:47,520 Speaker 1: pulling it all together, Uh, there's a unity. You know, 694 00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 1: they're performing this this piece sometimes, but in other cases 695 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:55,480 Speaker 1: things kind of drift and fall apart, and I feel 696 00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 1: like that's kind of what's what's being described here at 697 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:03,080 Speaker 1: at high out too, Like the the the orchestral performance 698 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:07,080 Speaker 1: that is our mind state is is drifting a little bit. 699 00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:09,719 Speaker 1: It is like it is. It's it's not so much, 700 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,560 Speaker 1: you know, a professional level of performance anymore. It is 701 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:17,359 Speaker 1: a middle school band performance. And things are getting out 702 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:19,560 Speaker 1: of sync, things are getting out of whack. And then 703 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,960 Speaker 1: what does that mean when we are the performance. That's 704 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,239 Speaker 1: a really good analogy because in that case, I mean, 705 00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,480 Speaker 1: when you've got Even if Gazanga's interpreter theory is not 706 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:30,759 Speaker 1: exactly right there, there clearly is a way in which 707 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:35,759 Speaker 1: the mind, that the human brain is performing itself for 708 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,759 Speaker 1: an audience of itself, like you in a way are 709 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,520 Speaker 1: the audience of what your brain is doing. And so 710 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:46,080 Speaker 1: you're there watching how the show is going, and if 711 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:48,719 Speaker 1: the show is not going right, you you are sensing it, 712 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 1: even though you are also the thing that's messing up. 713 00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,960 Speaker 1: All right. So I'm not a mountain climber, I'm not 714 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:59,120 Speaker 1: a mountaineer. I've visited mountains. I've had I think I 715 00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:03,480 Speaker 1: discussed like maybe a very limited reaction to an increase 716 00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:07,319 Speaker 1: in altitude that was slightly noteworthy, But I know we 717 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 1: have to have some mountaineers out there who are listening 718 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 1: to the to these episodes or our listeners regular listeners 719 00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:17,200 Speaker 1: to the podcast, so we would obviously love to hear 720 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:20,360 Speaker 1: about your experiences at how high altitude? Have have you 721 00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:23,839 Speaker 1: ever experienced anything like what we were discussing here, or 722 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,040 Speaker 1: have you simply have you never experienced it? Or or 723 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,640 Speaker 1: perhaps you can just speak to the awe and majesty 724 00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:30,880 Speaker 1: of the mountains. Perhaps you've visited some of the sacred 725 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,279 Speaker 1: mountains that we mentioned in the first episode, and you 726 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,680 Speaker 1: have a particular favorite you wanted to discuss. We'd love 727 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:42,000 Speaker 1: to hear from you. Another question I have is, so 728 00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:47,520 Speaker 1: outside of Lord of the Rings, outside of skeletor Snake 729 00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:50,400 Speaker 1: Mountain and Masters of the Universe and the Traveling Mountain, 730 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:54,840 Speaker 1: Fortress of the Beast and crull Um, are there evil 731 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:58,960 Speaker 1: mountains in mythologies and folklore that we uh we neglected 732 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:01,239 Speaker 1: to mention because I was I was looking around for him, 733 00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:03,319 Speaker 1: and I, like I say, the mountains tend to be 734 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 1: uh you know, part of just a sacred ecosystem of 735 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:12,080 Speaker 1: sacred geography, or you know, their home to various beings. 736 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,120 Speaker 1: But like this idea of there being like a mountain doom, 737 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:19,319 Speaker 1: a place of of evil, you know, or or or 738 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,280 Speaker 1: a place that has been occupied solely by an evil force. 739 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:24,840 Speaker 1: I just didn't see as much of that, like, aside 740 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,359 Speaker 1: from a few mountain trolls and a few crampuses here 741 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,560 Speaker 1: and there, um, and certainly a few things that could 742 00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:35,399 Speaker 1: maybe be classified as monsters that are thriving amid other 743 00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:39,759 Speaker 1: magical creatures and spirits. That's say, Kunlan Mountain. Uh, you know, 744 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,839 Speaker 1: what are some potential examples here? I don't know. That's 745 00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:47,120 Speaker 1: a good question. I'm sure there must be mountains that 746 00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,520 Speaker 1: are believed to be Hell or something like that, a 747 00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:53,840 Speaker 1: place of evil gods and that our physical mountains on Earth, 748 00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,719 Speaker 1: But I didn't. I don't think I came across any. 749 00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,120 Speaker 1: So bring us your monsters, is what I'm saying. Bring 750 00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,400 Speaker 1: them unto us so that we might see them and 751 00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:03,920 Speaker 1: consider them. In the meantime, if you want to check 752 00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:05,640 Speaker 1: out more episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, head 753 00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:07,200 Speaker 1: on over to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 754 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:09,080 Speaker 1: That's the mother ship. That's where we find all the episodes. 755 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,759 Speaker 1: You find links out to social media, and hey, if 756 00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:13,600 Speaker 1: you want to support the show, the best thing you 757 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:16,080 Speaker 1: can do is to rate and review us wherever you 758 00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:18,640 Speaker 1: have the power to do so. Rate, review, leave us 759 00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:20,719 Speaker 1: some stars. Leave us a nice comment. Really helps out 760 00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:23,600 Speaker 1: the algorithm and helps spread the word about the show. 761 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:27,280 Speaker 1: Totally huge, thanks as always to our excellent audio producers 762 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,160 Speaker 1: Alex Williams and Tary Harrison. If you would like to 763 00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:33,120 Speaker 1: get in touch with us directly with feedback about this episode, 764 00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:35,600 Speaker 1: or to suggest a topic for the future, or just 765 00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:38,960 Speaker 1: to say hello, you can email us at contact at 766 00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:51,000 Speaker 1: stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow 767 00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,360 Speaker 1: Your Mind is a production of iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works. 768 00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:55,680 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeart 769 00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:58,359 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 770 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:14,200 Speaker 1: favorite shows at the busy point four four four four 771 00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:14,960 Speaker 1: Foo