1
00:01:09,359 --> 00:01:12,439
Speaker 1: Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and

2
00:01:12,479 --> 00:01:13,599
Speaker 1: we have a quick update.

3
00:01:13,839 --> 00:01:16,039
Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something

4
00:01:16,079 --> 00:01:18,439
Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it

5
00:01:18,479 --> 00:01:21,719
Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we

6
00:01:21,839 --> 00:01:24,799
Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we

7
00:01:24,799 --> 00:01:25,439
Speaker 2: didn't remember.

8
00:01:25,439 --> 00:01:28,079
Speaker 1: We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so

9
00:01:28,199 --> 00:01:30,839
Speaker 1: many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to

10
00:01:30,919 --> 00:01:33,439
Speaker 1: absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping

11
00:01:33,559 --> 00:01:37,039
Speaker 1: new episodes right now, we are offering you our most

12
00:01:37,079 --> 00:01:40,399
Speaker 1: popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to

13
00:01:40,439 --> 00:01:41,519
Speaker 1: gain value from them.

14
00:01:41,759 --> 00:01:45,319
Speaker 2: We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy

15
00:01:45,359 --> 00:01:48,599
Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.

16
00:01:48,639 --> 00:01:49,239
Speaker 3: Just as much.

17
00:01:49,479 --> 00:01:52,679
Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,

18
00:01:52,799 --> 00:01:55,159
Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.

19
00:01:55,359 --> 00:01:58,159
Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called

20
00:01:58,559 --> 00:02:03,559
Speaker 2: Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,

21
00:02:03,759 --> 00:02:06,519
Speaker 2: and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You

22
00:02:06,559 --> 00:02:08,759
Speaker 2: can find out more about it on my website.

23
00:02:10,319 --> 00:02:13,519
Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,

24
00:02:13,719 --> 00:02:16,639
Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable

25
00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:23,119
Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,

26
00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:26,439
Speaker 1: I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

27
00:02:26,479 --> 00:02:29,239
Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice

28
00:02:29,279 --> 00:02:30,359
Speaker 1: column for The Atlantic.

29
00:02:30,599 --> 00:02:33,879
Speaker 3: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

30
00:02:34,239 --> 00:02:36,719
Speaker 3: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

31
00:02:37,119 --> 00:02:39,279
Speaker 3: And this is Dear Therapists.

32
00:02:39,999 --> 00:02:42,759
Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you

33
00:02:42,759 --> 00:02:45,159
Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help

34
00:02:45,239 --> 00:02:48,199
Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes

35
00:02:48,199 --> 00:02:48,919
Speaker 1: in their lives.

36
00:02:49,119 --> 00:02:53,719
Speaker 3: So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,

37
00:02:53,879 --> 00:02:56,399
Speaker 3: a young woman tries to break her pattern of seeking

38
00:02:56,399 --> 00:02:58,879
Speaker 3: out relationships with older, unavailable men.

39
00:02:59,159 --> 00:03:01,719
Speaker 4: Yeah. I was dependent on him because of my dad

40
00:03:01,759 --> 00:03:05,799
Speaker 4: and his illness and him dying, and so I came

41
00:03:05,839 --> 00:03:08,719
Speaker 4: to rely on him. And I told him how much

42
00:03:08,719 --> 00:03:12,079
Speaker 4: I cared about about him, and how I grew to

43
00:03:12,879 --> 00:03:15,519
Speaker 4: love him. I guess I think I said first.

44
00:03:15,519 --> 00:03:19,079
Speaker 1: A quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.

45
00:03:19,399 --> 00:03:22,439
Speaker 1: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is

46
00:03:22,479 --> 00:03:25,919
Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional healthcare advice. Diagnosis or treatment.

47
00:03:26,439 --> 00:03:29,199
Speaker 1: Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,

48
00:03:29,279 --> 00:03:31,999
Speaker 1: or other qualified health provider with any questions you may

49
00:03:31,999 --> 00:03:36,039
Speaker 1: have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,

50
00:03:36,079 --> 00:03:39,119
Speaker 1: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in partworn full,

51
00:03:39,399 --> 00:03:41,919
Speaker 1: and we may edit it for length and clarity. In

52
00:03:41,959 --> 00:03:44,679
Speaker 1: the sessions you'll hear. All names have been changed for

53
00:03:44,759 --> 00:03:47,399
Speaker 1: the privacy of our fellow travelers.

54
00:03:50,319 --> 00:03:53,279
Speaker 3: Hi Guy, Hi Laurie. So what do we have in

55
00:03:53,319 --> 00:03:55,159
Speaker 3: a mailbox today?

56
00:03:55,239 --> 00:03:58,399
Speaker 1: We have a letter about someone who is stuck in

57
00:03:58,439 --> 00:04:01,479
Speaker 1: a relationship pattern that isn't serving her, and it goes

58
00:04:01,519 --> 00:04:06,879
Speaker 1: like this, Dear therapists. I'm single. My career could not

59
00:04:06,959 --> 00:04:09,159
Speaker 1: be going better, but I keep falling in love with

60
00:04:09,239 --> 00:04:11,479
Speaker 1: me men who are at least twenty years older than me,

61
00:04:11,919 --> 00:04:15,319
Speaker 1: sometimes married with kids. It's a painful cycle that I

62
00:04:15,399 --> 00:04:19,079
Speaker 1: keep repeating, and I'm exhausted by it. It all started

63
00:04:19,079 --> 00:04:21,119
Speaker 1: in my senior year of college, when I fell in

64
00:04:21,159 --> 00:04:23,839
Speaker 1: love with my professor, who was over thirty years older

65
00:04:23,879 --> 00:04:26,599
Speaker 1: than me. We'd get dinner every week and have the

66
00:04:26,639 --> 00:04:30,679
Speaker 1: most intimate and intense conversations about anything and everything. Our

67
00:04:30,719 --> 00:04:34,759
Speaker 1: conversations were raw and vulnerable and felt like an honest exchange.

68
00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:37,759
Speaker 1: At the same time, my father was dying of cancer,

69
00:04:38,039 --> 00:04:41,519
Speaker 1: and this older professor comforted me throughout the harrowing experience.

70
00:04:42,159 --> 00:04:46,079
Speaker 1: At least he was single, so not totally unavailable. Now,

71
00:04:46,119 --> 00:04:49,079
Speaker 1: three years later, I find myself in a similar predicament.

72
00:04:49,559 --> 00:04:52,039
Speaker 1: I'm completely smitten with a man that I work with

73
00:04:52,079 --> 00:04:54,639
Speaker 1: who is twenty years older than me and married with children.

74
00:04:55,119 --> 00:04:57,519
Speaker 1: I feel seriously head over heels in love with him.

75
00:04:58,039 --> 00:05:00,479
Speaker 1: Our relationship is different than the one with my professor.

76
00:05:00,959 --> 00:05:03,919
Speaker 1: Instead of being vulnerable and intimate, it's light hearted and

77
00:05:03,999 --> 00:05:06,959
Speaker 1: fueled by mutual admiration for the work we do. He

78
00:05:07,039 --> 00:05:10,559
Speaker 1: flatters me, constantly, flirts consistently, and all I want to

79
00:05:10,559 --> 00:05:13,079
Speaker 1: do is please him. I would do close to anything

80
00:05:13,119 --> 00:05:15,839
Speaker 1: for him. I haven't felt this way since my professor

81
00:05:15,879 --> 00:05:18,679
Speaker 1: three years ago. I can't stop thinking about him, and

82
00:05:18,759 --> 00:05:21,679
Speaker 1: all my friends are, of course, sick of hearing about him,

83
00:05:21,799 --> 00:05:24,759
Speaker 1: and sick of my typical trajectory towards self destruction with

84
00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,639
Speaker 1: older men. I tried to get over this guy by

85
00:05:27,679 --> 00:05:30,359
Speaker 1: dating a different guy who was ten years older. After

86
00:05:30,399 --> 00:05:32,839
Speaker 1: all of the loss and grief I've dealt with anyone

87
00:05:32,879 --> 00:05:35,039
Speaker 1: remotely in my age range, doesn't seem to have the

88
00:05:35,039 --> 00:05:37,679
Speaker 1: depth of understanding or feeling that I have, and I

89
00:05:37,719 --> 00:05:40,039
Speaker 1: can't stand the thought of being with someone my age.

90
00:05:40,439 --> 00:05:42,559
Speaker 1: I don't feel like I'm looking for a father figure,

91
00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:45,319
Speaker 1: but the idea of an older man just feels comforting

92
00:05:45,359 --> 00:05:48,519
Speaker 1: and alluring. How do I get over this man in particular,

93
00:05:48,799 --> 00:05:51,679
Speaker 1: but even more importantly, how do I break this habit?

94
00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:53,519
Speaker 1: Thanks Emma.

95
00:05:54,679 --> 00:05:57,559
Speaker 3: The research tells us that we tend to go for

96
00:05:58,079 --> 00:06:02,999
Speaker 3: similar patterns of relationship, even if not with exactly similar people.

97
00:06:04,119 --> 00:06:07,919
Speaker 3: It's actually quite common that when you lose a parent,

98
00:06:08,719 --> 00:06:12,079
Speaker 3: you tend to to seek out someone to give you

99
00:06:12,119 --> 00:06:16,159
Speaker 3: that kind of comfort that you've lost. And I've heard

100
00:06:16,159 --> 00:06:18,119
Speaker 3: a lot of stories over the years of people who

101
00:06:18,159 --> 00:06:20,119
Speaker 3: fell in love with people who are much older than

102
00:06:20,119 --> 00:06:24,639
Speaker 3: them coincidentally around the time their parent passed away, And

103
00:06:24,679 --> 00:06:27,519
Speaker 3: it can really form a certain pattern and a certain

104
00:06:27,599 --> 00:06:30,479
Speaker 3: kind of imprinting, especially when you're young, that then sets

105
00:06:30,519 --> 00:06:33,359
Speaker 3: you up to be into the older person, and that

106
00:06:33,439 --> 00:06:36,119
Speaker 3: of course has its dynamics and complications of its own.

107
00:06:37,639 --> 00:06:39,079
Speaker 1: I think you're right, guy, and I think there are

108
00:06:39,079 --> 00:06:41,799
Speaker 1: two things going on here. One of course, is that

109
00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:44,919
Speaker 1: she started dating this much older professor around the same

110
00:06:44,959 --> 00:06:47,759
Speaker 1: time that she was going through this huge loss with

111
00:06:47,879 --> 00:06:50,759
Speaker 1: her father. But I think even for people who haven't

112
00:06:50,799 --> 00:06:54,399
Speaker 1: gone through that loss, there is something that happens to people,

113
00:06:54,439 --> 00:06:57,399
Speaker 1: which is that they tend to date someone that feels

114
00:06:57,559 --> 00:07:01,319
Speaker 1: familiar to them in some way that hasn't been resolved

115
00:07:01,399 --> 00:07:04,799
Speaker 1: in the past. So even if you haven't literally lost

116
00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,479
Speaker 1: a parent, if you had a parent who maybe wasn't

117
00:07:07,479 --> 00:07:11,319
Speaker 1: available to you or or maybe didn't see you or

118
00:07:11,399 --> 00:07:13,999
Speaker 1: understand you in a certain way, we tend to go

119
00:07:14,039 --> 00:07:17,999
Speaker 1: after partners who will replicate that dynamic until we're aware

120
00:07:17,999 --> 00:07:21,519
Speaker 1: of it. There's this saying we marry our unfinished business,

121
00:07:21,999 --> 00:07:24,919
Speaker 1: and it sounds like Emma maybe has some unfinished business

122
00:07:25,119 --> 00:07:30,079
Speaker 1: that is causing her to again and again go after

123
00:07:30,199 --> 00:07:33,239
Speaker 1: men who are much older than her. And she has

124
00:07:33,279 --> 00:07:36,799
Speaker 1: this idea that it's because she's experienced loss and grief

125
00:07:36,799 --> 00:07:39,319
Speaker 1: that people her own age can't understand her. But I

126
00:07:39,319 --> 00:07:40,799
Speaker 1: think it's more complicated than that.

127
00:07:41,719 --> 00:07:44,079
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree that it's more complicated than that, because

128
00:07:44,079 --> 00:07:47,679
Speaker 3: she seems to dismiss younger men as being literally incapable

129
00:07:48,199 --> 00:07:50,479
Speaker 3: of having the level of maturity that she does at

130
00:07:50,479 --> 00:07:52,919
Speaker 3: twenty five, and by younger men, she's saying men who

131
00:07:52,919 --> 00:07:55,039
Speaker 3: are even ten years older. And when you hear a

132
00:07:55,039 --> 00:07:58,639
Speaker 3: blanket statement like that, it sounds like it's a little

133
00:07:58,639 --> 00:08:01,279
Speaker 3: bit defensive, that there's an agenda there, even if she's

134
00:08:01,319 --> 00:08:03,679
Speaker 3: not aware of it. So I'll be very curious to

135
00:08:04,079 --> 00:08:05,279
Speaker 3: hear a little bit more from her.

136
00:08:05,799 --> 00:08:10,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's go meet her. Listening to Dear Therapists for

137
00:08:10,879 --> 00:08:13,639
Speaker 1: my Heart Radio. We'll be back after a short break.

138
00:08:21,119 --> 00:08:24,439
Speaker 3: I'm Lari Gottlieb and I'm Guy Winch and this is

139
00:08:24,519 --> 00:08:25,719
Speaker 3: Dear Therapists.

140
00:08:28,239 --> 00:08:31,119
Speaker 1: So, hi, Emma, hey, welcome to the show.

141
00:08:31,839 --> 00:08:33,079
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me.

142
00:08:33,439 --> 00:08:38,239
Speaker 5: Of course, so we read about your dilemma, and we

143
00:08:38,279 --> 00:08:41,159
Speaker 5: want to start off by learning a little bit more

144
00:08:41,279 --> 00:08:45,839
Speaker 5: about your relationships prior to the one with your professor.

145
00:08:46,239 --> 00:08:47,879
Speaker 5: Can you tell us a little bit about those.

146
00:08:48,879 --> 00:08:53,159
Speaker 4: I was in one romantic relationship, but it was kind

147
00:08:53,199 --> 00:08:58,519
Speaker 4: of short and really intense, and it was my sophomore

148
00:08:58,599 --> 00:09:01,799
Speaker 4: year of college. We met at the end of our

149
00:09:02,319 --> 00:09:06,639
Speaker 4: first semester, and then the school that I went to

150
00:09:06,799 --> 00:09:11,399
Speaker 4: has a very long winter break, and so we started

151
00:09:11,439 --> 00:09:14,319
Speaker 4: texting a lot, which turned into like texting every day

152
00:09:14,519 --> 00:09:16,599
Speaker 4: for like six weeks until we got back to campus.

153
00:09:16,639 --> 00:09:20,039
Speaker 4: And then when we did get back. We started dating immediately,

154
00:09:20,199 --> 00:09:24,239
Speaker 4: really intensely, and because it started so soon and so intensely,

155
00:09:24,279 --> 00:09:27,359
Speaker 4: it kind of like imploded on itself. And so we

156
00:09:27,439 --> 00:09:29,599
Speaker 4: dated for a few months, and that was kind of

157
00:09:29,599 --> 00:09:32,679
Speaker 4: the only relationship I had been in prior. And then

158
00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:36,399
Speaker 4: I had other like short term things or flings or whatever,

159
00:09:36,479 --> 00:09:38,439
Speaker 4: but nothing really serious other than that.

160
00:09:39,839 --> 00:09:42,679
Speaker 1: So this person was your age. He was a fellow student.

161
00:09:43,199 --> 00:09:45,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, he was a fellow student who was two or

162
00:09:45,479 --> 00:09:46,879
Speaker 4: three years older than me.

163
00:09:48,039 --> 00:09:49,879
Speaker 1: And did you have that feeling with him that you

164
00:09:49,959 --> 00:09:54,599
Speaker 1: described in your letter that somebody your age couldn't possibly

165
00:09:54,759 --> 00:09:59,879
Speaker 1: understand the depth of your feelings or had this sort

166
00:09:59,879 --> 00:10:02,479
Speaker 1: of emotional maturity that I think you're looking for.

167
00:10:04,239 --> 00:10:08,799
Speaker 4: He was very empathetic and really smart. I felt connected

168
00:10:08,799 --> 00:10:10,919
Speaker 4: to him in a lot of ways. And he was

169
00:10:10,919 --> 00:10:15,519
Speaker 4: like a good listener and empathetic, but wasn't as open

170
00:10:15,719 --> 00:10:21,279
Speaker 4: or as emotionally intelligent, I guess as other people.

171
00:10:21,879 --> 00:10:25,599
Speaker 3: With the professor, you said that that happened around the

172
00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,599
Speaker 3: time that your dad was dying. I think could you

173
00:10:29,639 --> 00:10:32,199
Speaker 3: tell us a little bit about that period, what was

174
00:10:32,239 --> 00:10:36,679
Speaker 3: happening on the dad front and how things about with him?

175
00:10:37,159 --> 00:10:38,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean That's another thing too, Like when I

176
00:10:38,919 --> 00:10:41,959
Speaker 4: was dating that other person, my dad was still sick

177
00:10:42,039 --> 00:10:45,199
Speaker 4: and was kind of slowly dying, but it wasn't the same.

178
00:10:46,279 --> 00:10:51,039
Speaker 4: So then my senior year of college, the treatments that

179
00:10:51,239 --> 00:10:55,439
Speaker 4: my dad had been undergoing, like radiation therapy and imminotherapy

180
00:10:56,239 --> 00:11:00,119
Speaker 4: stopped working, which we found out like on September fourteenth

181
00:11:00,119 --> 00:11:03,239
Speaker 4: of my senior year of college. And then a few

182
00:11:03,239 --> 00:11:05,679
Speaker 4: weeks or maybe a month later, he started hospice care

183
00:11:05,719 --> 00:11:10,319
Speaker 4: and that's when he really started to decline. And that's

184
00:11:10,399 --> 00:11:13,679
Speaker 4: also when I met that professor as well.

185
00:11:14,919 --> 00:11:17,879
Speaker 1: I would love to hear more about your relationship with

186
00:11:17,919 --> 00:11:20,479
Speaker 1: your father. Can you tell us more about him and

187
00:11:21,239 --> 00:11:23,439
Speaker 1: what it was like between the two of you growing up,

188
00:11:23,519 --> 00:11:25,439
Speaker 1: and then also at the time when he got sick.

189
00:11:26,799 --> 00:11:30,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think we kind of went in and out

190
00:11:30,519 --> 00:11:33,919
Speaker 4: of being close. So it was hard because he became

191
00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:38,679
Speaker 4: sick like my freshman or sophomore year of high school.

192
00:11:38,719 --> 00:11:41,119
Speaker 4: So I kind of lost like a huge part of

193
00:11:41,159 --> 00:11:45,479
Speaker 4: my dad when I was in high school. But prior

194
00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:49,319
Speaker 4: to that, he was always like the really goofy one

195
00:11:49,759 --> 00:11:53,399
Speaker 4: and was super smart and I don't know, like we

196
00:11:53,439 --> 00:11:55,839
Speaker 4: played sports together. He taught me how to play baseball,

197
00:11:55,919 --> 00:11:58,839
Speaker 4: He taught me how to ride a bike. We did

198
00:11:58,839 --> 00:12:03,599
Speaker 4: a lot of like candy things together too, And then

199
00:12:03,639 --> 00:12:06,399
Speaker 4: it was also kind of hard, like slowly losing him

200
00:12:06,439 --> 00:12:10,199
Speaker 4: while I was also going through the classic teenage years

201
00:12:10,239 --> 00:12:11,759
Speaker 4: of when I was supposed to be kind of pulling

202
00:12:11,759 --> 00:12:13,999
Speaker 4: away from my family and becoming more and more independent.

203
00:12:15,039 --> 00:12:17,399
Speaker 3: Who told you and how did they tell you that

204
00:12:17,439 --> 00:12:20,239
Speaker 3: your dad was sick? And how clear was it to

205
00:12:20,279 --> 00:12:22,359
Speaker 3: you at the time that this was serious.

206
00:12:22,759 --> 00:12:26,919
Speaker 4: Well, my mom, I'm sure told me. And then throughout

207
00:12:26,999 --> 00:12:29,639
Speaker 4: high school and even college, there was always kind of

208
00:12:29,639 --> 00:12:32,399
Speaker 4: a negotiation and battle between I having an older brothers

209
00:12:32,439 --> 00:12:36,079
Speaker 4: five years older, and so there's always a negotiation between

210
00:12:36,719 --> 00:12:38,959
Speaker 4: us and my parents of like how much they would

211
00:12:38,999 --> 00:12:40,559
Speaker 4: tell us and how much we wanted to know, and

212
00:12:40,599 --> 00:12:42,839
Speaker 4: we always wanted to know as much information as possible,

213
00:12:42,879 --> 00:12:45,439
Speaker 4: but my mom kind of wanted to protect us. But

214
00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:47,799
Speaker 4: also throughout the years, like my dad never wanted to

215
00:12:47,839 --> 00:12:51,319
Speaker 4: know his prognosis, so that wasn't anything that if him

216
00:12:51,439 --> 00:12:54,959
Speaker 4: or his doctor or my mom would know or talk about.

217
00:12:55,199 --> 00:13:00,679
Speaker 4: And it became more serious probably my sophomore year of college,

218
00:13:01,159 --> 00:13:06,319
Speaker 4: because I guess that's when it became stage three, where

219
00:13:06,439 --> 00:13:08,479
Speaker 4: it had spread to his lymph nodes and it had

220
00:13:08,519 --> 00:13:11,719
Speaker 4: become more serious, and my mom would kind of make

221
00:13:11,799 --> 00:13:16,319
Speaker 4: like a fan somewhat like hysterical remarks about him dying.

222
00:13:17,199 --> 00:13:19,119
Speaker 1: What did those sound like? Those remarks?

223
00:13:20,719 --> 00:13:23,519
Speaker 4: I just remember this one time, my mom saying, like,

224
00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:26,679
Speaker 4: this is the last thing that we can do, and

225
00:13:26,759 --> 00:13:29,239
Speaker 4: if this doesn't work, then like this is it. He's

226
00:13:29,279 --> 00:13:29,799
Speaker 4: going to die.

227
00:13:30,439 --> 00:13:33,519
Speaker 1: And that felt hysterical to you because on the one hand,

228
00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,119
Speaker 1: you were saying, my brother and I really wanted to

229
00:13:36,159 --> 00:13:38,679
Speaker 1: know the truth of what was happening. And on the

230
00:13:38,759 --> 00:13:40,919
Speaker 1: other hand, when she says, this is the last thing.

231
00:13:40,959 --> 00:13:44,559
Speaker 1: If this doesn't work, he's going to die, that felt

232
00:13:44,879 --> 00:13:45,719
Speaker 1: hysterical to you.

233
00:13:47,279 --> 00:13:50,679
Speaker 4: It felt hysirical in the moment because it was like

234
00:13:51,039 --> 00:13:56,119
Speaker 4: incredibly passionate and high pitch and have a specific tone

235
00:13:56,239 --> 00:13:59,399
Speaker 4: with it. And at that time it wasn't true either.

236
00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:04,359
Speaker 4: This was three years before he died, and he underwent

237
00:14:04,839 --> 00:14:09,639
Speaker 4: countless treatments in those next three years, so it wasn't

238
00:14:09,719 --> 00:14:12,479
Speaker 4: quite true, and it wasn't really what the doctors were saying.

239
00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:16,799
Speaker 4: It was felt more of just like and totally understandable,

240
00:14:17,119 --> 00:14:19,559
Speaker 4: like a moment of weakness and kind of just like

241
00:14:19,879 --> 00:14:21,799
Speaker 4: breaking down. I mean, she had to deal with this

242
00:14:21,879 --> 00:14:25,519
Speaker 4: for the longest and most intensely out of all of us.

243
00:14:26,079 --> 00:14:29,079
Speaker 3: How did you support one another in the family because

244
00:14:29,479 --> 00:14:32,839
Speaker 3: your older brother and you were not privy to all

245
00:14:32,879 --> 00:14:36,239
Speaker 3: the information, so you didn't know everything. They didn't know

246
00:14:36,239 --> 00:14:39,079
Speaker 3: everything because they didn't want to know everything. But how

247
00:14:39,119 --> 00:14:41,159
Speaker 3: did the support go? Who was the person that was

248
00:14:41,199 --> 00:14:43,879
Speaker 3: trying to be more supported? Did that flip around? Who

249
00:14:43,879 --> 00:14:46,559
Speaker 3: supported you? Who supported your mom? Your dad, your brother?

250
00:14:47,479 --> 00:14:51,439
Speaker 4: Yeah? I think it changed over the years. I mean

251
00:14:51,479 --> 00:14:54,199
Speaker 4: I was a teenager and just like very far removed

252
00:14:54,199 --> 00:14:57,199
Speaker 4: from anything that was happening. I just wanted to be

253
00:14:57,239 --> 00:15:00,399
Speaker 4: a kid, and so we were all kind of in

254
00:15:00,439 --> 00:15:04,759
Speaker 4: our own planes. I guess later on my brother really

255
00:15:04,759 --> 00:15:07,679
Speaker 4: supported my dad in a lot of ways. They were

256
00:15:07,719 --> 00:15:08,679
Speaker 4: really really close.

257
00:15:09,839 --> 00:15:11,919
Speaker 1: In what ways did your brother support your dad?

258
00:15:12,599 --> 00:15:16,599
Speaker 4: Well, my brother ended up in the last year or

259
00:15:16,639 --> 00:15:19,639
Speaker 4: two of my dad's life, my brother stopped working. He

260
00:15:20,319 --> 00:15:23,039
Speaker 4: lived with my parents off and on, like a few

261
00:15:23,119 --> 00:15:25,559
Speaker 4: days a week to just kind of be there and

262
00:15:25,599 --> 00:15:27,439
Speaker 4: hang out with my dad and spend time with him

263
00:15:28,119 --> 00:15:30,959
Speaker 4: throughout the whole time. Like, my dad definitely had a

264
00:15:30,999 --> 00:15:34,199
Speaker 4: lot of trouble, like talking about his feelings and he

265
00:15:34,279 --> 00:15:36,439
Speaker 4: was suppressed in a lot of ways, and my brother

266
00:15:36,519 --> 00:15:39,079
Speaker 4: would always kind of push him and push him as

267
00:15:39,159 --> 00:15:40,919
Speaker 4: much as possible to talk about those things.

268
00:15:41,279 --> 00:15:44,119
Speaker 3: Who did you talk to, Emma? Your brother was there

269
00:15:44,239 --> 00:15:46,679
Speaker 3: for your dad and they were talking to each other,

270
00:15:47,119 --> 00:15:48,359
Speaker 3: But who were you talking to?

271
00:15:48,999 --> 00:15:52,439
Speaker 4: In high school, I didn't tell anyone about it or

272
00:15:52,519 --> 00:15:57,879
Speaker 4: talk to anyone about it. Actually the first the first

273
00:15:57,879 --> 00:16:00,679
Speaker 4: person that I told was my high school english teacher

274
00:16:00,719 --> 00:16:04,399
Speaker 4: because I had to write a college essay and I

275
00:16:04,519 --> 00:16:06,519
Speaker 4: used to play ping pong with my dad all the time,

276
00:16:06,599 --> 00:16:08,999
Speaker 4: and I wrote about the first time that I beat him,

277
00:16:10,519 --> 00:16:13,199
Speaker 4: and he would always play me lefty because he was

278
00:16:13,919 --> 00:16:16,919
Speaker 4: a lot better than me, and I could never beat him,

279
00:16:16,919 --> 00:16:20,159
Speaker 4: but I won because he was sick and he just

280
00:16:20,279 --> 00:16:24,759
Speaker 4: couldn't play as well as he used to. And then

281
00:16:25,719 --> 00:16:29,999
Speaker 4: one of my friends from high school found out because

282
00:16:32,479 --> 00:16:35,799
Speaker 4: she went to my house looking for me and I

283
00:16:35,879 --> 00:16:38,639
Speaker 4: wasn't there, but my dad was there and he just

284
00:16:38,679 --> 00:16:41,599
Speaker 4: got back from maybe the hospital or something, and so

285
00:16:41,719 --> 00:16:45,999
Speaker 4: he told her what was happening. So that was the

286
00:16:46,039 --> 00:16:48,519
Speaker 4: first person I guess that I talked to about it,

287
00:16:48,759 --> 00:16:55,359
Speaker 4: which was this summer after my senior year of high school. Yeah,

288
00:16:55,359 --> 00:16:57,639
Speaker 4: and then when things started getting worse my sophomore year

289
00:16:57,639 --> 00:16:59,919
Speaker 4: of college, I started just valing my friends about it,

290
00:16:59,999 --> 00:17:02,119
Speaker 4: and the person I was dating at that time, I

291
00:17:02,119 --> 00:17:05,239
Speaker 4: would talk to him about it too, whenever my dad

292
00:17:05,239 --> 00:17:07,239
Speaker 4: looked like a scan and we were waiting for insults.

293
00:17:07,239 --> 00:17:07,999
Speaker 4: And I was worried.

294
00:17:08,919 --> 00:17:11,279
Speaker 1: When you're friend in high school found out and reached

295
00:17:11,279 --> 00:17:13,439
Speaker 1: out to you, what was that like for you for

296
00:17:13,559 --> 00:17:16,839
Speaker 1: somebody to know, and what were those conversations like?

297
00:17:18,999 --> 00:17:23,399
Speaker 4: I guess it was a relief, but it was really

298
00:17:23,519 --> 00:17:27,359
Speaker 4: hard for me to talk about it. Yeah. I remember

299
00:17:28,439 --> 00:17:32,719
Speaker 4: we just like drove around in her car and she

300
00:17:32,839 --> 00:17:36,839
Speaker 4: was trying to talk to me about it, and yeah,

301
00:17:36,879 --> 00:17:38,399
Speaker 4: it was kind of a relief to know.

302
00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:39,559
Speaker 3: That she knew.

303
00:17:40,839 --> 00:17:44,879
Speaker 4: But I guy was pretty emotional in crying, and yeah,

304
00:17:44,919 --> 00:17:49,239
Speaker 4: it's really hard for me to process it. And at

305
00:17:49,239 --> 00:17:54,439
Speaker 4: that time, also at that time, his illness was getting

306
00:17:54,519 --> 00:17:58,839
Speaker 4: visibly worse, so things were also becoming a lot more

307
00:17:58,919 --> 00:18:01,519
Speaker 4: real and right in front of me. And it was

308
00:18:01,559 --> 00:18:04,759
Speaker 4: also when I was like getting ready to leave for college.

309
00:18:05,199 --> 00:18:08,519
Speaker 4: But now it kind of felt like his life was

310
00:18:08,559 --> 00:18:10,959
Speaker 4: a lot more friend so it was tough leave hat

311
00:18:11,079 --> 00:18:12,279
Speaker 4: during that time too.

312
00:18:12,959 --> 00:18:15,799
Speaker 3: It sounds like you were very close with your dad

313
00:18:15,839 --> 00:18:20,119
Speaker 3: in some ways, and clearly it's affecting you. Yet I'm

314
00:18:20,159 --> 00:18:23,119
Speaker 3: not hearing that you were reaching out to friends to

315
00:18:23,159 --> 00:18:27,119
Speaker 3: get support, and I ask why I was.

316
00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:29,279
Speaker 4: I don't know, kind of similar to my dad in

317
00:18:29,319 --> 00:18:35,599
Speaker 4: a lot of ways and like very stoic, and I

318
00:18:35,599 --> 00:18:38,679
Speaker 4: guess I didn't think that I needed help, and I

319
00:18:38,799 --> 00:18:42,039
Speaker 4: kind of just coped with it in the ways that

320
00:18:42,079 --> 00:18:44,639
Speaker 4: I knew how. I guess I wasn't ready to talk

321
00:18:44,639 --> 00:18:47,559
Speaker 4: about it either, because I mean it more real. I

322
00:18:47,639 --> 00:18:51,079
Speaker 4: just started running a lot and biking a lot, and

323
00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:54,319
Speaker 4: that was kind of like my way of dealing with it.

324
00:18:55,719 --> 00:18:57,799
Speaker 1: I'm wondering about what was going on between you and

325
00:18:57,839 --> 00:19:01,319
Speaker 1: your brother, because you said your brother, at least in

326
00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:05,079
Speaker 1: that last year, was able to really talk with your

327
00:19:05,159 --> 00:19:07,919
Speaker 1: dad and be close with your dad. Were you able

328
00:19:07,959 --> 00:19:10,559
Speaker 1: to talk with your brother what was happening and how

329
00:19:10,559 --> 00:19:11,239
Speaker 1: you were feeling.

330
00:19:12,879 --> 00:19:16,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, we I think became a lot closer because of it.

331
00:19:17,239 --> 00:19:24,279
Speaker 4: Later on, like when I was in college that summer,

332
00:19:24,959 --> 00:19:27,999
Speaker 4: the summer AFFROMI senior year of high school, we didn't

333
00:19:28,039 --> 00:19:29,639
Speaker 4: really talk about it. We were kind of in two

334
00:19:29,719 --> 00:19:33,079
Speaker 4: different worlds at the time, and I think because I

335
00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:35,199
Speaker 4: suppressed a lot of it. When I got to college

336
00:19:35,239 --> 00:19:39,199
Speaker 4: my freshman year, I had a lot of trouble integrating

337
00:19:39,279 --> 00:19:42,799
Speaker 4: and I was like very homesick and sad, and my

338
00:19:42,999 --> 00:19:45,279
Speaker 4: brother kind of talked me through a lot of that

339
00:19:45,519 --> 00:19:47,559
Speaker 4: and we became a lot closer because of that.

340
00:19:48,919 --> 00:19:53,319
Speaker 1: So in your sophomore year, your dad is now apparently

341
00:19:53,399 --> 00:19:58,799
Speaker 1: quite ill, and you start dating this person at school

342
00:19:59,199 --> 00:20:01,679
Speaker 1: and you said that it kind of imploded, I think

343
00:20:01,759 --> 00:20:04,239
Speaker 1: is how you described it. Can you tell us about

344
00:20:04,239 --> 00:20:04,799
Speaker 1: the implosion?

345
00:20:06,239 --> 00:20:11,519
Speaker 4: Yeah, So when we first started dating, we were in

346
00:20:11,559 --> 00:20:15,559
Speaker 4: a relationship. I like essentially moved into his dorm room,

347
00:20:16,919 --> 00:20:19,399
Speaker 4: and for me, it was going really well, but it

348
00:20:19,439 --> 00:20:22,119
Speaker 4: was really really fast. It just too fast, and that

349
00:20:22,239 --> 00:20:23,999
Speaker 4: really freaked him out because he had been in a

350
00:20:24,039 --> 00:20:27,679
Speaker 4: relationship that started too quickly and then ended really badly,

351
00:20:27,759 --> 00:20:30,599
Speaker 4: and he didn't want to do that again. So he

352
00:20:30,799 --> 00:20:33,719
Speaker 4: kind of hit the brakes on us and wanted to

353
00:20:33,799 --> 00:20:35,959
Speaker 4: kind of pause and go back and take it slow

354
00:20:36,039 --> 00:20:38,359
Speaker 4: and just kind of date and not sort of be

355
00:20:38,439 --> 00:20:42,119
Speaker 4: in this like intense relationship from the get go. And

356
00:20:42,399 --> 00:20:44,279
Speaker 4: I didn't want to do that, and I felt like

357
00:20:44,439 --> 00:20:48,359
Speaker 4: he was just kind of like moving slower and slower

358
00:20:48,399 --> 00:20:52,039
Speaker 4: away from me. And by the end of the semester,

359
00:20:52,279 --> 00:20:56,439
Speaker 4: I just couldn't really deal with it anymore. The previous

360
00:20:56,439 --> 00:20:58,199
Speaker 4: semester I was just like a total mess, in a

361
00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:00,999
Speaker 4: nightmare and all over the place and failed in my classes.

362
00:21:01,439 --> 00:21:03,759
Speaker 4: Then this semester I bit off more than I could chew.

363
00:21:03,879 --> 00:21:05,599
Speaker 1: I was wait, hold on, I want to step you there.

364
00:21:05,639 --> 00:21:07,319
Speaker 1: So you said it. You kind of threw that off,

365
00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:08,639
Speaker 1: like you kind of tossed that off.

366
00:21:09,039 --> 00:21:09,239
Speaker 4: You know.

367
00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:11,319
Speaker 1: I failed all my classes and I was a mess.

368
00:21:11,679 --> 00:21:13,719
Speaker 4: No, No, I just failed one class.

369
00:21:13,319 --> 00:21:17,559
Speaker 1: Just one, okay? But was that related to what was

370
00:21:17,599 --> 00:21:21,439
Speaker 1: going on for you emotionally around your father's illness or

371
00:21:21,479 --> 00:21:24,439
Speaker 1: what was happening for you? I mean, was that unusual

372
00:21:24,519 --> 00:21:24,759
Speaker 1: for you?

373
00:21:26,159 --> 00:21:29,639
Speaker 4: Yeah? I was definitely unusual. I was a really good student.

374
00:21:29,919 --> 00:21:32,399
Speaker 4: Freshman year of college was fine, but I was like

375
00:21:32,559 --> 00:21:36,319
Speaker 4: very very unhappy. But I did okay. And then sophomore

376
00:21:36,399 --> 00:21:39,119
Speaker 4: year of college, I was just kind of consumed with

377
00:21:39,879 --> 00:21:42,079
Speaker 4: getting as many friends as I could so I could

378
00:21:42,079 --> 00:21:45,479
Speaker 4: be happier, and like, my dad was doing worse and

379
00:21:45,919 --> 00:21:49,239
Speaker 4: I wasn't handling it particularly well. And I also kind

380
00:21:49,239 --> 00:21:53,279
Speaker 4: of just stopped talking to my parents that semester, to

381
00:21:53,399 --> 00:21:55,439
Speaker 4: both of them, both of them.

382
00:21:55,519 --> 00:22:01,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, why, I don't know, So what was the circumstance

383
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,959
Speaker 3: in which you just speaking to them? Like, how did

384
00:22:03,959 --> 00:22:04,599
Speaker 3: that come about?

385
00:22:06,079 --> 00:22:08,319
Speaker 4: I just like wouldn't call them, I wouldn't really pick

386
00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:09,999
Speaker 4: up their call, was like, and I felt like I

387
00:22:10,039 --> 00:22:13,279
Speaker 4: was like trying on this personality that was like much

388
00:22:13,279 --> 00:22:18,599
Speaker 4: more outgoing and fun, and that didn't align with talking

389
00:22:18,639 --> 00:22:19,439
Speaker 4: to my parents a lot.

390
00:22:20,279 --> 00:22:22,759
Speaker 3: It also didn't align with the fact that your dad

391
00:22:22,879 --> 00:22:25,919
Speaker 3: was doing very badly, And I'm wondering if that was

392
00:22:26,679 --> 00:22:29,079
Speaker 3: a real attempt to run away from that reality.

393
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:35,479
Speaker 4: Probably, Yeah, it all kind of felt like an escape,

394
00:22:35,599 --> 00:22:38,399
Speaker 4: for sure. My parents were not happy about it.

395
00:22:40,079 --> 00:22:42,519
Speaker 1: How did those conversations go where they told you that

396
00:22:42,559 --> 00:22:44,839
Speaker 1: they weren't happy about the fact that you weren't communicating

397
00:22:44,839 --> 00:22:45,199
Speaker 1: with them.

398
00:22:46,399 --> 00:22:49,199
Speaker 4: I think I would hear it from my brother. Probably.

399
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:52,719
Speaker 4: They were definitely like very disappointed when I ended up

400
00:22:52,719 --> 00:22:56,439
Speaker 4: feeling one of my classes, and I remember my dad saying, like,

401
00:22:56,639 --> 00:22:58,759
Speaker 4: we're not sending you to college just to like drink

402
00:22:58,799 --> 00:23:01,919
Speaker 4: and party. But I don't really remember much more than that.

403
00:23:02,839 --> 00:23:05,359
Speaker 1: You know, what comes to mind and that conversation with

404
00:23:05,439 --> 00:23:09,919
Speaker 1: your dad is that it's almost like sometimes when we're

405
00:23:09,959 --> 00:23:14,359
Speaker 1: losing someone that we care so much about it's almost

406
00:23:14,439 --> 00:23:19,479
Speaker 1: like you can't fire me. I quit. You failed the class,

407
00:23:20,279 --> 00:23:25,799
Speaker 1: which you knew would be disappointing, and it's almost like

408
00:23:26,919 --> 00:23:29,479
Speaker 1: it might have even been a relief to have your

409
00:23:29,479 --> 00:23:32,039
Speaker 1: father be disappointed in you, that you could at least

410
00:23:32,279 --> 00:23:35,719
Speaker 1: have that barrier between the two of you. And I

411
00:23:35,759 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 1: think it's hard to see those things when they're happening

412
00:23:37,919 --> 00:23:42,119
Speaker 1: in the moment, But in hindsight, I wonder if now,

413
00:23:42,239 --> 00:23:45,079
Speaker 1: when you look at that period in your life, there's

414
00:23:45,079 --> 00:23:48,199
Speaker 1: a flavor of it's so hard for me to move

415
00:23:48,239 --> 00:23:51,319
Speaker 1: closer to the pain of this that I'm going to

416
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,799
Speaker 1: move as far away as i can and I'm going

417
00:23:53,839 --> 00:23:56,239
Speaker 1: to recreate my personality and I'm going to drink and

418
00:23:56,239 --> 00:23:57,959
Speaker 1: I'm going to party, and I'm going to not talk

419
00:23:57,999 --> 00:24:00,319
Speaker 1: to my parents, and I'm going to fail a class.

420
00:24:00,599 --> 00:24:03,279
Speaker 1: Not that you consciously did any of that, but as

421
00:24:03,319 --> 00:24:05,439
Speaker 1: you look at it now and you try to understand

422
00:24:05,479 --> 00:24:07,159
Speaker 1: that period in your life, which was so out of

423
00:24:07,239 --> 00:24:10,559
Speaker 1: character for you, of that resonate.

424
00:24:10,199 --> 00:24:14,599
Speaker 4: Now, Yeah, I think it does. I mean, the first

425
00:24:14,599 --> 00:24:15,999
Speaker 4: thing that comes to mind, like I wonder if it

426
00:24:16,039 --> 00:24:18,959
Speaker 4: was also just kind of like a cry for help perhaps,

427
00:24:19,159 --> 00:24:21,999
Speaker 4: But yeah, I definitely think it does, and I think

428
00:24:22,039 --> 00:24:26,039
Speaker 4: that's kind of an interesting way of looking at it. Yeah.

429
00:24:26,719 --> 00:24:29,519
Speaker 3: The other part of that that stands out is that

430
00:24:29,759 --> 00:24:33,079
Speaker 3: it's during this time that your dad was getting sicker,

431
00:24:33,879 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 3: you were pulling away from them more, and you were

432
00:24:38,159 --> 00:24:42,839
Speaker 3: also trying to attach more intensely to other people. In

433
00:24:42,879 --> 00:24:45,359
Speaker 3: the first case, that guy that you were dating that

434
00:24:45,399 --> 00:24:48,759
Speaker 3: you said it was very intense and very fast, And again,

435
00:24:48,839 --> 00:24:52,439
Speaker 3: it strikes me that you were really trying to create

436
00:24:52,479 --> 00:24:54,959
Speaker 3: your life elsewhere to run away from it as much

437
00:24:54,959 --> 00:24:59,079
Speaker 3: as possible because it was just too painful to deal

438
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,519
Speaker 3: with that reality. So you were living these two lives.

439
00:25:01,559 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 3: On the one hand, at home, things were going poorly

440
00:25:04,679 --> 00:25:06,799
Speaker 3: with your dad's health. You might have had a sense

441
00:25:06,839 --> 00:25:10,079
Speaker 3: that you're losing him soon, and yet you're trying to

442
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 3: create this party life or this fun life and romance

443
00:25:13,439 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 3: and friends and all of college. And it just seems

444
00:25:15,639 --> 00:25:19,119
Speaker 3: that they were really two different worlds. Were you aware

445
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:20,279
Speaker 3: of that at the time.

446
00:25:21,159 --> 00:25:23,799
Speaker 4: No, not really. I haven't really thought about it that way,

447
00:25:23,879 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 4: But that also does definitely resonates.

448
00:25:28,399 --> 00:25:31,719
Speaker 3: Can we actually move on to how you met the professor?

449
00:25:31,719 --> 00:25:33,959
Speaker 3: I mean, you think he was your professor, but how

450
00:25:33,999 --> 00:25:36,319
Speaker 3: did you meet him? How did that relationship again?

451
00:25:37,319 --> 00:25:42,079
Speaker 4: Yeah, so a little bit of backstory just going into

452
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:47,079
Speaker 4: my senior year of college. I so when I was

453
00:25:47,159 --> 00:25:49,439
Speaker 4: dating that person that was really intense for a few

454
00:25:49,439 --> 00:25:52,999
Speaker 4: months my sophomore year, he ended up not really wanted

455
00:25:52,999 --> 00:25:54,559
Speaker 4: to be in a relationship with me, and then I

456
00:25:54,639 --> 00:25:57,319
Speaker 4: kind of fell apart and I withdrew from all my

457
00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,039
Speaker 4: classes I could finish them. When I went home and

458
00:25:59,079 --> 00:26:01,559
Speaker 4: I was really depressed, and then I took like a

459
00:26:01,639 --> 00:26:02,719
Speaker 4: year off from college.

460
00:26:03,679 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 1: What did you do that year at home with your

461
00:26:06,759 --> 00:26:12,039
Speaker 1: ailing father and you're probably very sad and anxious mother.

462
00:26:12,479 --> 00:26:13,839
Speaker 3: And sad and anxious brother.

463
00:26:14,879 --> 00:26:19,559
Speaker 4: Yeah. My brother was, Oh yeah, he had graduated from college.

464
00:26:19,599 --> 00:26:23,039
Speaker 4: He was living in the city and was working. I

465
00:26:23,079 --> 00:26:27,199
Speaker 4: came home and was like severely depressed, like stay in

466
00:26:27,199 --> 00:26:29,199
Speaker 4: my room for probably like two months.

467
00:26:30,159 --> 00:26:33,239
Speaker 1: What did your parents think when you came home severely depressed?

468
00:26:33,239 --> 00:26:35,319
Speaker 1: What were those conversations like in your family?

469
00:26:36,039 --> 00:26:37,959
Speaker 4: They were really concerned and worried.

470
00:26:38,959 --> 00:26:41,799
Speaker 1: Did they suggest that maybe you go talk to someone

471
00:26:41,879 --> 00:26:42,759
Speaker 1: or see a therapist?

472
00:26:43,799 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 4: Yeah? Yeah, I was talking to someone like twice a

473
00:26:47,959 --> 00:26:50,719
Speaker 4: week when I first came home, and then eventually once

474
00:26:50,759 --> 00:26:52,919
Speaker 4: a week, and then eventually not so much.

475
00:26:53,039 --> 00:26:55,039
Speaker 3: What were you talking about, if I may ask, because

476
00:26:55,039 --> 00:26:56,079
Speaker 3: there was so much going on.

477
00:26:56,799 --> 00:26:59,999
Speaker 4: I was, like prepherally talking about my dad, but it

478
00:27:00,079 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 4: wasn't at this like forefront of what was happening. I

479
00:27:04,199 --> 00:27:07,279
Speaker 4: think then I was probably most concerned with and talking

480
00:27:07,319 --> 00:27:11,479
Speaker 4: about this person that I had and dating, and then

481
00:27:11,599 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 4: I was also consumed with feeling like a failure for

482
00:27:15,479 --> 00:27:19,799
Speaker 4: leaving college, and so those were the most pressing issues

483
00:27:19,839 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 4: that I was dealing with, just trying to figure out

484
00:27:22,919 --> 00:27:25,679
Speaker 4: how to get back on my feet and feel like

485
00:27:25,719 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 4: a normal person again.

486
00:27:28,479 --> 00:27:32,279
Speaker 1: I'm hearing so much loss in what you were experiencing,

487
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,119
Speaker 1: and maybe you didn't think of it that way at

488
00:27:34,159 --> 00:27:37,199
Speaker 1: the time, but to me, you were grieving, and you

489
00:27:37,239 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 1: were grieving the end of that relationship with the guy

490
00:27:40,439 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 1: you were dating, and that at first you felt incredibly

491
00:27:43,679 --> 00:27:46,319
Speaker 1: attached to, and then you saw him move farther and

492
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,319
Speaker 1: farther away from you, just like your dad was doing

493
00:27:49,879 --> 00:27:52,159
Speaker 1: because he was sick and he was going to die.

494
00:27:53,039 --> 00:27:54,839
Speaker 1: And so you had these two men in your life

495
00:27:54,839 --> 00:27:58,199
Speaker 1: who you couldn't quite reach because they were both going

496
00:27:58,239 --> 00:28:00,799
Speaker 1: to move away from you, both for reasons out of

497
00:28:00,839 --> 00:28:05,679
Speaker 1: your control. And then you were grieving the loss of

498
00:28:05,919 --> 00:28:08,399
Speaker 1: your life as a student, that you had never been

499
00:28:08,439 --> 00:28:10,519
Speaker 1: that kind of student before, you had always done well

500
00:28:10,599 --> 00:28:13,839
Speaker 1: in school. You failed a class, and you withdrew from

501
00:28:13,839 --> 00:28:17,599
Speaker 1: your classes, and so everything that was familiar to you,

502
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,919
Speaker 1: everything that was comforting to you had gone away or

503
00:28:22,999 --> 00:28:26,519
Speaker 1: was going away. I think for all of us, it

504
00:28:26,559 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 1: can be so much easier to deal with the thing

505
00:28:29,159 --> 00:28:33,039
Speaker 1: that feels the most concrete, which is there's this guy.

506
00:28:33,559 --> 00:28:36,439
Speaker 1: We were in a relationship. He was pulling back. I'm

507
00:28:36,479 --> 00:28:39,079
Speaker 1: deeply wounded by this, and that might have been the

508
00:28:39,119 --> 00:28:43,039
Speaker 1: focus of your therapy at the time, but I think

509
00:28:43,039 --> 00:28:45,839
Speaker 1: that whether you realized that or not, you were grieving

510
00:28:45,839 --> 00:28:46,919
Speaker 1: these other losses too.

511
00:28:47,919 --> 00:28:48,119
Speaker 6: Yeah.

512
00:28:48,159 --> 00:28:52,599
Speaker 4: I've definitely drawn that connection before. And I think the

513
00:28:52,719 --> 00:28:56,959
Speaker 4: reason why that breakup was so painful was because it

514
00:28:56,999 --> 00:28:59,959
Speaker 4: felt so similar to kind of that slow loss that

515
00:28:59,999 --> 00:29:05,639
Speaker 4: I was dealing with my dad. Yeah, So I ended up.

516
00:29:05,959 --> 00:29:07,679
Speaker 4: Then I took a full year off from college. I

517
00:29:07,759 --> 00:29:09,799
Speaker 4: worked at home, and then I went abroad for about

518
00:29:09,799 --> 00:29:13,119
Speaker 4: six months, and then I went back to school. And

519
00:29:13,159 --> 00:29:14,919
Speaker 4: then there was this class that I really wanted to

520
00:29:14,959 --> 00:29:19,199
Speaker 4: take with this professor who was like pretty well accomplished

521
00:29:19,359 --> 00:29:22,719
Speaker 4: in his field, and I knew that I wanted to

522
00:29:22,759 --> 00:29:25,999
Speaker 4: try and build like a professional relationship with him because

523
00:29:26,679 --> 00:29:29,039
Speaker 4: I thought it would help me in my career. I

524
00:29:29,119 --> 00:29:31,999
Speaker 4: was doing that over the summer and I would go

525
00:29:31,999 --> 00:29:36,959
Speaker 4: to hospital appointments with him, and so then I got

526
00:29:36,999 --> 00:29:41,759
Speaker 4: back to school and I started that class and our

527
00:29:41,919 --> 00:29:46,919
Speaker 4: first assignment in the class was to write about someone

528
00:29:47,039 --> 00:29:51,799
Speaker 4: you really cared about and someone who you were really

529
00:29:51,839 --> 00:29:56,519
Speaker 4: close to, and the assignment was to render them in words.

530
00:29:57,279 --> 00:30:00,879
Speaker 4: I wrote about this story about my dad. Me and

531
00:30:00,919 --> 00:30:02,919
Speaker 4: my family had gone on in vacation that summer in

532
00:30:02,919 --> 00:30:07,599
Speaker 4: the Berkshires, and my dad was really really not doing well.

533
00:30:07,679 --> 00:30:10,239
Speaker 4: He was pretty sick that summer, so we spent most

534
00:30:10,279 --> 00:30:14,439
Speaker 4: of his time pretty weak and in bed. But there

535
00:30:14,479 --> 00:30:17,159
Speaker 4: was this one day that we went into town and

536
00:30:17,359 --> 00:30:20,999
Speaker 4: we met up with my brother's girlfriend and her mom

537
00:30:21,519 --> 00:30:24,439
Speaker 4: and they had a house up there, and my brother's

538
00:30:24,479 --> 00:30:28,959
Speaker 4: girlfriend's dad had just died like a few months before

539
00:30:29,079 --> 00:30:33,479
Speaker 4: that from patriotic cancer was really quick, and my dad

540
00:30:33,519 --> 00:30:36,199
Speaker 4: walked into the store with my mom and he found

541
00:30:36,319 --> 00:30:41,159
Speaker 4: this little stuffed animal. My dad was like so frugal,

542
00:30:41,279 --> 00:30:45,319
Speaker 4: He never bought anything. He like hated buying things, but

543
00:30:45,439 --> 00:30:47,959
Speaker 4: he saw this little stuffed animal and pointed it out

544
00:30:47,999 --> 00:30:50,119
Speaker 4: to my mom and said, like, I really want that,

545
00:30:50,759 --> 00:30:52,759
Speaker 4: and so my mom bought it for him and he

546
00:30:52,799 --> 00:30:54,399
Speaker 4: had it with him in bed. It was kind of

547
00:30:54,439 --> 00:30:59,439
Speaker 4: like it felt like this protector of him. And so

548
00:30:59,479 --> 00:31:03,719
Speaker 4: I wrote about that for this assignment, and I wrote

549
00:31:03,719 --> 00:31:07,279
Speaker 4: about my dad being sick and this little steft animal

550
00:31:07,359 --> 00:31:10,079
Speaker 4: that gave him comfort. It was almost like for a

551
00:31:10,119 --> 00:31:13,399
Speaker 4: full circle story when you get older and sick and

552
00:31:13,519 --> 00:31:16,479
Speaker 4: dying and you kind of become childlike again, you just

553
00:31:16,519 --> 00:31:20,959
Speaker 4: want your stuffed animal. And the professor read each one

554
00:31:21,039 --> 00:31:24,559
Speaker 4: of our stories out loud to the class. I remember

555
00:31:25,039 --> 00:31:28,399
Speaker 4: after my professor read my story out loud, it was

556
00:31:28,479 --> 00:31:33,639
Speaker 4: just kind of silent, but he kind of filled that

557
00:31:33,719 --> 00:31:36,639
Speaker 4: silence with a story about his own dad being really sick,

558
00:31:36,719 --> 00:31:41,679
Speaker 4: and he was like empathizing understanding my story. So that's

559
00:31:41,719 --> 00:31:42,799
Speaker 4: why I met him.

560
00:31:43,599 --> 00:31:46,999
Speaker 1: How did it move from him being your professor to

561
00:31:47,079 --> 00:31:48,639
Speaker 1: him being your boyfriend?

562
00:31:49,919 --> 00:31:55,999
Speaker 4: He wasn't ever my boyfriend and nothing ever happened like

563
00:31:56,079 --> 00:32:00,919
Speaker 4: physically between us. We had like a really intimate emotional relationship,

564
00:32:01,159 --> 00:32:02,839
Speaker 4: but it wasn't physical.

565
00:32:03,519 --> 00:32:05,199
Speaker 3: That you had feelings for him.

566
00:32:05,919 --> 00:32:07,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, I did develop feelings for him.

567
00:32:07,959 --> 00:32:11,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, And when did that happen. Did he know.

568
00:32:13,359 --> 00:32:18,399
Speaker 4: The way things changed was I was seeing him out

569
00:32:18,399 --> 00:32:21,479
Speaker 4: for advice after class and he was like, yeah, but

570
00:32:21,519 --> 00:32:23,319
Speaker 4: I'm about to leave, like I'm hungry. I'm going to

571
00:32:23,399 --> 00:32:24,759
Speaker 4: go get a bye to eat, Like do you want

572
00:32:24,759 --> 00:32:26,399
Speaker 4: to join me? And I was like sure, yeah, I

573
00:32:26,479 --> 00:32:28,599
Speaker 4: just have to call my mom back and he was

574
00:32:28,639 --> 00:32:32,599
Speaker 4: like okay, And then I got a meal with him

575
00:32:33,119 --> 00:32:34,999
Speaker 4: and we were talking and he asked me about my

576
00:32:35,039 --> 00:32:37,239
Speaker 4: family and my parents and how they met, and about

577
00:32:37,239 --> 00:32:40,399
Speaker 4: my dad and how he was doing. And then that

578
00:32:40,519 --> 00:32:43,879
Speaker 4: kind of turned into this like almost ritual where we

579
00:32:43,919 --> 00:32:47,599
Speaker 4: would get dinner every week and have these contents and

580
00:32:47,679 --> 00:32:52,439
Speaker 4: intimate conversations, and then over time I just kind of

581
00:32:52,479 --> 00:32:54,479
Speaker 4: developed feelings for him because of that.

582
00:32:55,399 --> 00:32:57,039
Speaker 3: Did he know that you have feelings for him?

583
00:32:58,359 --> 00:33:02,839
Speaker 4: I think he must have because of how I acted.

584
00:33:02,999 --> 00:33:05,919
Speaker 4: I think he also did things to kind of egg

585
00:33:06,079 --> 00:33:12,079
Speaker 4: me on, and by the end and our friendship or

586
00:33:12,079 --> 00:33:16,319
Speaker 4: whatever it was, our relationship or whatever, just kind of

587
00:33:16,479 --> 00:33:20,159
Speaker 4: ended strangely. And so I wrote him this letter and

588
00:33:20,999 --> 00:33:24,679
Speaker 4: left it at his house before I left college after

589
00:33:24,719 --> 00:33:28,079
Speaker 4: I graduated, and I basically told him in that letter,

590
00:33:28,159 --> 00:33:29,839
Speaker 4: I think it was kind of clear.

591
00:33:30,639 --> 00:33:33,599
Speaker 1: When you said he did things that egged you on

592
00:33:33,719 --> 00:33:34,479
Speaker 1: what do you mean by that?

593
00:33:36,039 --> 00:33:39,239
Speaker 4: He would talk about like his ex girlfriends pretty frequently

594
00:33:39,359 --> 00:33:43,399
Speaker 4: and like, tell me about that history when I wouldn't

595
00:33:43,479 --> 00:33:45,479
Speaker 4: like ask him about it or tell him about my

596
00:33:45,519 --> 00:33:46,519
Speaker 4: own dating history.

597
00:33:47,839 --> 00:33:50,039
Speaker 3: So when that ended, you said, it ended in a

598
00:33:50,079 --> 00:33:50,799
Speaker 3: weird way.

599
00:33:51,759 --> 00:33:56,039
Speaker 4: Yeah, I had considerate After I graduated, I considered staying

600
00:33:56,839 --> 00:33:59,759
Speaker 4: in my college town and working for him. I could

601
00:33:59,759 --> 00:34:02,239
Speaker 4: stay there, and he was going to be away for

602
00:34:02,319 --> 00:34:04,839
Speaker 4: the summer, but potentially I could stay in his house

603
00:34:04,879 --> 00:34:06,799
Speaker 4: and take care of his dog while he was away

604
00:34:06,999 --> 00:34:12,519
Speaker 4: and work for him. But then right after I graduated,

605
00:34:13,279 --> 00:34:15,639
Speaker 4: we had this barbecue in my backyard. He came and

606
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,079
Speaker 4: like other like a bunch of friends and family. Other

607
00:34:18,119 --> 00:34:21,119
Speaker 4: professors were there too, and we had this talk where

608
00:34:21,159 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 4: he was like, you know, we need boundaries in our

609
00:34:24,799 --> 00:34:28,919
Speaker 4: relationship and you can't stay in my house over the summer.

610
00:34:28,999 --> 00:34:31,119
Speaker 4: And I kind of asked him what he meant or

611
00:34:31,159 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 4: what he was talking about, but he had to leave

612
00:34:33,519 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 4: and then he just kind of ignored me and was

613
00:34:36,879 --> 00:34:41,639
Speaker 4: like hang in there, and that was it. So I

614
00:34:41,759 --> 00:34:45,399
Speaker 4: decided that I was going to leave, and when I did,

615
00:34:46,119 --> 00:34:50,039
Speaker 4: I wrote him an email saying like Hey, I'm not

616
00:34:50,079 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 4: going to work for you. I decided I'm leaving, and

617
00:34:51,799 --> 00:34:55,879
Speaker 4: then I wrote this page long letter and delivered it

618
00:34:56,079 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 4: to his house and then I left, like a day

619
00:34:58,799 --> 00:34:59,439
Speaker 4: or two later.

620
00:34:59,879 --> 00:35:00,919
Speaker 1: What did the letter say?

621
00:35:02,159 --> 00:35:04,559
Speaker 4: Oh, I remember too, when we had that talk and

622
00:35:04,599 --> 00:35:06,639
Speaker 4: he said we needed boundaries. He was like, you're too

623
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,879
Speaker 4: dependent on me, and so I just let I guess

624
00:35:09,919 --> 00:35:13,479
Speaker 4: I was explaining why I was dependent on him because

625
00:35:13,519 --> 00:35:17,439
Speaker 4: of my dad and his illness and him dying, and

626
00:35:17,519 --> 00:35:20,159
Speaker 4: so I came to rely on him, and I think

627
00:35:20,199 --> 00:35:23,639
Speaker 4: I apologized for that. I think I like told him

628
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 4: how much I cared about him and how I grew

629
00:35:27,879 --> 00:35:30,959
Speaker 4: to love him. I guess I think I said and

630
00:35:31,319 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 4: that maybe I had become dependent on him, but also

631
00:35:35,479 --> 00:35:38,679
Speaker 4: like the way he acted and treated me like he

632
00:35:38,759 --> 00:35:42,079
Speaker 4: was dependent on me too, and it wasn't just a

633
00:35:42,119 --> 00:35:45,519
Speaker 4: one sided thing, and I wanted him to take responsibility

634
00:35:45,559 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 4: for that.

635
00:35:47,079 --> 00:35:48,319
Speaker 1: Did he respond to the letter.

636
00:35:49,599 --> 00:35:51,879
Speaker 4: He did respond to the letter, but it took him

637
00:35:51,919 --> 00:35:56,199
Speaker 4: a few weeks. Then it was very professional and buttoned up,

638
00:35:56,279 --> 00:35:59,919
Speaker 4: and it was the email he basically said, like, you know,

639
00:35:59,999 --> 00:36:02,679
Speaker 4: I'm so glad you took these classes with me. I

640
00:36:02,679 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 4: wish you all the best.

641
00:36:04,359 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 1: But he didn't address the fact that you said you

642
00:36:06,319 --> 00:36:09,399
Speaker 1: grew to love him, or that you felt he it

643
00:36:09,479 --> 00:36:12,919
Speaker 1: also crossed some boundaries with you.

644
00:36:12,999 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 4: No, not at all. He basically kind of invalidated or

645
00:36:16,879 --> 00:36:20,519
Speaker 4: just ignored it, like I was any other student who

646
00:36:20,599 --> 00:36:23,279
Speaker 4: took classes with him and wished me all the best

647
00:36:23,479 --> 00:36:27,839
Speaker 4: or whatever. And I confronted him again, probably a year later,

648
00:36:29,439 --> 00:36:34,319
Speaker 4: and so I asked him to meet up, and I

649
00:36:34,359 --> 00:36:35,479
Speaker 4: was like, do you know what I want to talk

650
00:36:35,519 --> 00:36:36,879
Speaker 4: to you about? And he was like, I think you

651
00:36:36,999 --> 00:36:40,479
Speaker 4: feel like I let you down in some way and

652
00:36:40,879 --> 00:36:43,079
Speaker 4: I was like, yeah, I guess so, but it was

653
00:36:43,119 --> 00:36:46,079
Speaker 4: more than that. I said, I also feel like you

654
00:36:47,119 --> 00:36:50,199
Speaker 4: made sexual advances towards me and we're kind of inappropriate

655
00:36:50,399 --> 00:36:56,599
Speaker 4: and it was really confusing, and he like very defensively

656
00:36:56,679 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 4: and firmly denied that and got like pretty upset.

657
00:37:00,879 --> 00:37:03,439
Speaker 1: Did you give him examples of what you felt were

658
00:37:03,479 --> 00:37:04,439
Speaker 1: sexual advances?

659
00:37:06,119 --> 00:37:08,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, I said, I was like, you told me about

660
00:37:08,479 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 4: all of your ex girlfrien, you talked about your sex life.

661
00:37:10,879 --> 00:37:12,399
Speaker 4: You told me that you thought it was okay for

662
00:37:12,479 --> 00:37:15,199
Speaker 4: professors and students to date as long as students were seniors.

663
00:37:15,319 --> 00:37:16,959
Speaker 4: And he just fought out denied.

664
00:37:16,639 --> 00:37:19,999
Speaker 3: It, okay, And what's happening with your dad at this time?

665
00:37:20,079 --> 00:37:21,839
Speaker 3: Is he still alive when this is going on.

666
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 4: So he had died a couple of months before I

667
00:37:25,279 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 4: wrote that letter, and when I confronted him it was

668
00:37:28,839 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 4: like a year and months afterwards.

669
00:37:31,679 --> 00:37:35,679
Speaker 3: It just sounds like it was dealing with a lot

670
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,159
Speaker 3: of loss. It sounds like you got closer with your

671
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,879
Speaker 3: dad again and spent a lot of time with him,

672
00:37:42,839 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 3: and that makes it really difficult when he passes away.

673
00:37:46,959 --> 00:37:50,599
Speaker 3: And that's around the time that you were with this

674
00:37:50,679 --> 00:37:54,559
Speaker 3: professor that you know he was perhaps pulling away. I mean,

675
00:37:54,559 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 3: it just sounds like you had those losses truly back

676
00:37:58,799 --> 00:37:59,919
Speaker 3: to back at that point.

677
00:38:01,879 --> 00:38:05,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was hard too, because he was someone who

678
00:38:06,159 --> 00:38:08,839
Speaker 4: encouraged me to talk about my dad, and other people

679
00:38:08,879 --> 00:38:12,359
Speaker 4: weren't really asked me about him because they were didn't

680
00:38:12,359 --> 00:38:13,879
Speaker 4: know what to say or they didn't know if they

681
00:38:13,919 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 4: should ask about it. But he always did and wanted

682
00:38:19,319 --> 00:38:23,119
Speaker 4: me to talk about it and was really supportive. And

683
00:38:23,199 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 4: so then to like a couple of months after my

684
00:38:25,359 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 4: dad died, to have him then just like completely what

685
00:38:29,399 --> 00:38:33,479
Speaker 4: felt like kind of like completely breaking ties was Yeah,

686
00:38:33,879 --> 00:38:34,879
Speaker 4: it was really hard.

687
00:38:35,839 --> 00:38:40,559
Speaker 3: It just seems like such a painful double way to

688
00:38:40,639 --> 00:38:44,039
Speaker 3: go through losing these you know, your dad obviously, and

689
00:38:44,079 --> 00:38:46,559
Speaker 3: then this person who seemed so significant to seem like

690
00:38:46,599 --> 00:38:50,399
Speaker 3: the person who would be there to help you through it.

691
00:38:51,199 --> 00:38:55,039
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely, that summer was so hard because like, not

692
00:38:55,119 --> 00:38:57,959
Speaker 4: only had I lost my dad, but also my mom

693
00:38:58,079 --> 00:39:01,439
Speaker 4: was just like kind of a wreck, like totally understandable,

694
00:39:01,559 --> 00:39:06,439
Speaker 4: but I didn't really know how to deal with it,

695
00:39:06,559 --> 00:39:10,879
Speaker 4: and it felt kind of like losing two parents. And

696
00:39:11,079 --> 00:39:12,999
Speaker 4: I think I emailed him. I reached out to him

697
00:39:13,039 --> 00:39:18,559
Speaker 4: and said something to that effect. Did he respond, He responded.

698
00:39:18,759 --> 00:39:22,679
Speaker 4: I think he expressed some empathy or more sort of

699
00:39:22,959 --> 00:39:24,519
Speaker 4: I think he asked me if I had a therapist.

700
00:39:25,799 --> 00:39:28,879
Speaker 3: Emma. In your letter, you indicated that one of the

701
00:39:28,919 --> 00:39:32,399
Speaker 3: reasons that you are attracted to older men is because

702
00:39:32,479 --> 00:39:36,839
Speaker 3: the maturity and stability and they get things. And I

703
00:39:36,839 --> 00:39:40,119
Speaker 3: can see in the relationship with a professor why you

704
00:39:40,159 --> 00:39:42,679
Speaker 3: would feel that way, because he actually asked and he

705
00:39:42,759 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 3: was curious about what was going on with your dad,

706
00:39:45,279 --> 00:39:48,319
Speaker 3: and he seemed very supportive for the time that he

707
00:39:48,439 --> 00:39:52,519
Speaker 3: was there. But then the way it ended didn't sound

708
00:39:52,559 --> 00:39:56,079
Speaker 3: like the most mature way to end that situation. And

709
00:39:56,279 --> 00:40:00,119
Speaker 3: it was very disappointing and hurtful for you. With that

710
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,119
Speaker 3: in mind, I do want to hear about this current

711
00:40:03,159 --> 00:40:05,919
Speaker 3: relationship that you have that you wrote about. Can you

712
00:40:05,919 --> 00:40:07,319
Speaker 3: tell us about that?

713
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:14,079
Speaker 4: Sure? Professor was like over thirty years older than me.

714
00:40:15,559 --> 00:40:23,319
Speaker 4: This other person is only twenty years old, and I

715
00:40:23,359 --> 00:40:29,959
Speaker 4: met him through work and I just like developed these

716
00:40:29,999 --> 00:40:33,959
Speaker 4: really intense feelings for him. And the nature of it

717
00:40:33,999 --> 00:40:37,679
Speaker 4: is so different, Like it's super lighthearted, it's like really

718
00:40:37,839 --> 00:40:42,839
Speaker 4: fun and easy, but he's also married and has children.

719
00:40:45,159 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 4: But he also like leaves me a lot of attention

720
00:40:47,879 --> 00:40:50,919
Speaker 4: and showers me with compliments and it feels amazing. But

721
00:40:51,079 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 4: it's super different, and it's not burdened by my dad

722
00:40:55,839 --> 00:40:59,879
Speaker 4: dying or some really dark thing happening in my life.

723
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 1: Does he know that you have these feelings for him?

724
00:41:04,159 --> 00:41:06,599
Speaker 4: I think on some level, when someone has a crush

725
00:41:06,639 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 4: on you, you always know.

726
00:41:08,679 --> 00:41:11,199
Speaker 1: It's funny that say that, because it sounds like in

727
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:15,519
Speaker 1: your family there was a lot of assuming what was

728
00:41:15,559 --> 00:41:18,319
Speaker 1: going on with other people, but not directly talking about it,

729
00:41:18,959 --> 00:41:21,319
Speaker 1: And so for you that might seem like, well, that's

730
00:41:21,359 --> 00:41:25,599
Speaker 1: the norm that people into it what you're feeling, even

731
00:41:25,759 --> 00:41:28,559
Speaker 1: if you don't say it directly because that's what you

732
00:41:28,599 --> 00:41:29,119
Speaker 1: grew up with.

733
00:41:31,159 --> 00:41:32,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a good point.

734
00:41:33,159 --> 00:41:35,159
Speaker 1: I want to open you up to the idea that

735
00:41:35,799 --> 00:41:40,479
Speaker 1: maybe if you don't communicate directly with people, they don't

736
00:41:40,519 --> 00:41:45,199
Speaker 1: know exactly what you're feeling. So when you say he

737
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:49,679
Speaker 1: showers you with compliments, I assume those are professional compliments.

738
00:41:49,919 --> 00:41:55,399
Speaker 1: They're not romantic compliments. Is that right? Yeah? And so

739
00:41:57,039 --> 00:41:59,839
Speaker 1: it's almost like a lot of these relationships are taking

740
00:41:59,879 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 1: place in your head. And I don't mean that you're

741
00:42:02,319 --> 00:42:04,559
Speaker 1: making them up. I mean they're very real to you,

742
00:42:05,999 --> 00:42:10,679
Speaker 1: but that the other person isn't involved in the sense

743
00:42:10,879 --> 00:42:14,839
Speaker 1: of you have sat down and been vulnerable with this person.

744
00:42:14,919 --> 00:42:17,359
Speaker 1: You talk a lot about being vulnerable with the Professor

745
00:42:17,399 --> 00:42:20,919
Speaker 1: about what was going on with your dad, but you

746
00:42:20,959 --> 00:42:23,039
Speaker 1: weren't vulnerable with him in terms of what was going

747
00:42:23,079 --> 00:42:26,359
Speaker 1: on between the two of you until the very end.

748
00:42:27,639 --> 00:42:31,039
Speaker 1: And with this guy, it sounds like he doesn't really

749
00:42:31,079 --> 00:42:33,919
Speaker 1: know what happened with your dad because you probably haven't

750
00:42:33,959 --> 00:42:36,999
Speaker 1: opened up to him about it and it's not happening

751
00:42:37,039 --> 00:42:42,679
Speaker 1: at this moment. And I really wonder whether he has

752
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,479
Speaker 1: any idea that you feel the way you do about.

753
00:42:45,359 --> 00:42:51,639
Speaker 4: Him, he does know what happened with my dad, And

754
00:42:51,679 --> 00:42:55,679
Speaker 4: maybe he doesn't know, but he might know. The reason

755
00:42:55,759 --> 00:42:57,919
Speaker 4: I think he might know is because I mean, he

756
00:42:57,959 --> 00:42:59,599
Speaker 4: also like flirted with me a little bit.

757
00:43:00,319 --> 00:43:02,599
Speaker 1: One of the reasons that you seem to believe that

758
00:43:02,599 --> 00:43:05,639
Speaker 1: you're attracted to older men is that they have more

759
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:09,199
Speaker 1: life experience and therefore are emotionally deeper and can un

760
00:43:09,359 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 1: understand you on a deeper level. And yet you haven't

761
00:43:14,359 --> 00:43:19,159
Speaker 1: really engaged in any kind of deep eye thou relationship

762
00:43:19,279 --> 00:43:21,959
Speaker 1: with either of them. And by I thou we use

763
00:43:21,999 --> 00:43:25,119
Speaker 1: this term in therapy, meaning how I relate to you,

764
00:43:25,279 --> 00:43:28,919
Speaker 1: how you relate to me. And you said that you

765
00:43:28,959 --> 00:43:31,799
Speaker 1: did try to date someone who was about ten years older,

766
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:36,799
Speaker 1: and that you felt like this person didn't have that

767
00:43:36,919 --> 00:43:41,559
Speaker 1: level of emotional depth, And so I don't really hear

768
00:43:41,599 --> 00:43:44,159
Speaker 1: a lot of emotional depth happening with the current person.

769
00:43:44,679 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 1: It sounds like you joke around a lot that you

770
00:43:46,799 --> 00:43:48,919
Speaker 1: have a fondness for each other, but I don't really

771
00:43:48,959 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 1: hear anything romantic going on necessarily from his end. You

772
00:43:53,399 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 1: know what draws you to him more than maybe the

773
00:43:55,759 --> 00:43:57,079
Speaker 1: person who was ten years older.

774
00:43:58,759 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 4: The person I was ten years older actually was really

775
00:44:01,959 --> 00:44:05,839
Speaker 4: great and it was going super well, and I didn't

776
00:44:05,879 --> 00:44:08,159
Speaker 4: think that he couldn't relate to me. I felt like

777
00:44:08,279 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 4: we could relate to each other super well. But it

778
00:44:10,319 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 4: turned out he had just gotten out of a relationship

779
00:44:12,759 --> 00:44:15,079
Speaker 4: and wasn't ready to enter into a new one, and

780
00:44:15,119 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 4: that's why it ended. It was pretty brief.

781
00:44:18,359 --> 00:44:23,359
Speaker 3: What's interesting is that to me, the relationship that sounds

782
00:44:23,399 --> 00:44:27,959
Speaker 3: like you were most in it is the one in

783
00:44:27,999 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 3: your sophomore year with the guy who was your age.

784
00:44:32,079 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 3: That's the one where you entered into it very quickly.

785
00:44:36,279 --> 00:44:38,439
Speaker 3: The two of you kind of moved into his dorm

786
00:44:38,519 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 3: room right away. That he felt it was a little

787
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:43,679
Speaker 3: too quick and he was putting on the brakes. But

788
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 3: you were in it, you were interested in it, you

789
00:44:46,319 --> 00:44:49,519
Speaker 3: were going for it, and that was your first real relationship.

790
00:44:49,559 --> 00:44:54,799
Speaker 3: And then since then it's been real safe choices for you.

791
00:44:55,479 --> 00:44:57,999
Speaker 3: In the sense that you know the professor, he's thirty

792
00:44:58,079 --> 00:45:01,799
Speaker 3: years older. There was a lot of disclosure going on,

793
00:45:02,039 --> 00:45:05,519
Speaker 3: and that felt very intimate. But nothing happened between the

794
00:45:05,519 --> 00:45:08,839
Speaker 3: two of you and the guy at work. He's married.

795
00:45:08,879 --> 00:45:12,199
Speaker 3: He doesn't even though that you have these feelings. The

796
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:14,119
Speaker 3: guy who was ten years older was right out of

797
00:45:14,119 --> 00:45:17,119
Speaker 3: a relationship and not ready for a new one. And

798
00:45:17,159 --> 00:45:19,319
Speaker 3: I have this feeling that there's a part of you

799
00:45:19,479 --> 00:45:23,599
Speaker 3: that really wants to just actually be in a relationship,

800
00:45:23,639 --> 00:45:26,279
Speaker 3: to have that part of your life because you're almost

801
00:45:26,319 --> 00:45:29,479
Speaker 3: You're entire of that life was taken up with your

802
00:45:29,519 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 3: dad's illness. And then you meet the guy who's ten

803
00:45:32,359 --> 00:45:35,159
Speaker 3: years older. Even that felt good for a while. What

804
00:45:35,319 --> 00:45:38,479
Speaker 3: doesn't feel good is that when you're with the older guys,

805
00:45:38,479 --> 00:45:41,399
Speaker 3: with the professor, with this guy from work, you are

806
00:45:41,799 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 3: pining for someone who's older, but it's almost collegial or mentorish.

807
00:45:48,359 --> 00:45:52,959
Speaker 3: It doesn't feel or seem romantic, but it does feel safe.

808
00:45:53,359 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 3: And I wonder if that early experience and all the

809
00:45:56,839 --> 00:46:00,399
Speaker 3: turbulence of your adolescent years, after all the losses you've had,

810
00:46:00,439 --> 00:46:01,439
Speaker 3: you're playing it safe.

811
00:46:03,279 --> 00:46:08,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's definitely makes sense to Also, there's

812
00:46:09,479 --> 00:46:13,759
Speaker 4: something alluring about someone who's unavailable and kind of unapproachable,

813
00:46:14,079 --> 00:46:19,639
Speaker 4: and it's easier that way because there's not really in

814
00:46:19,679 --> 00:46:23,319
Speaker 4: the realm of possibility, and therefore there's also not a

815
00:46:23,319 --> 00:46:27,079
Speaker 4: lot of room to get hurt or be rejected or

816
00:46:27,199 --> 00:46:28,079
Speaker 4: left or whatever.

817
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:32,199
Speaker 3: But they occupy that emotional space in a way that

818
00:46:32,279 --> 00:46:36,239
Speaker 3: doesn't leave you free for someone else perhaps who might

819
00:46:36,759 --> 00:46:38,879
Speaker 3: be there, who might have something to give back.

820
00:46:40,039 --> 00:46:42,039
Speaker 4: Yeah, probably true.

821
00:46:42,519 --> 00:46:45,279
Speaker 1: I've noticed that even in our conversation with you today,

822
00:46:45,439 --> 00:46:48,239
Speaker 1: you haven't really looked at us very much. That when

823
00:46:48,279 --> 00:46:52,359
Speaker 1: you start talking about something that feels very tender or delicate,

824
00:46:53,159 --> 00:46:58,599
Speaker 1: you look down, and when we're talking like right now,

825
00:46:58,639 --> 00:47:00,839
Speaker 1: you'll look right up at us. But then when you're

826
00:47:01,079 --> 00:47:04,599
Speaker 1: responding to us about something that feels maybe vulnerable to you,

827
00:47:05,879 --> 00:47:08,199
Speaker 1: not once in this conversation have you looked at us.

828
00:47:09,119 --> 00:47:11,919
Speaker 1: And you think that there's something about getting close to

829
00:47:11,999 --> 00:47:19,439
Speaker 1: people or really being seen that feels terrifying to you.

830
00:47:21,399 --> 00:47:23,079
Speaker 1: And part of it might have to do with the

831
00:47:23,119 --> 00:47:27,239
Speaker 1: fact that, starting when you were in high school, you

832
00:47:27,319 --> 00:47:30,999
Speaker 1: were dealing with potential imminent loss with your dad. But

833
00:47:31,039 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 1: part of it might also have to do with the

834
00:47:32,759 --> 00:47:37,919
Speaker 1: style of communication in your family, where things weren't really

835
00:47:37,959 --> 00:47:42,119
Speaker 1: directly talked about. Everybody seemed to love one another, but

836
00:47:42,199 --> 00:47:44,919
Speaker 1: they didn't really talk about the things that needed to

837
00:47:44,959 --> 00:47:48,399
Speaker 1: be talked about in a direct way. And so part

838
00:47:48,439 --> 00:47:50,079
Speaker 1: of it is that you went through this experience of

839
00:47:50,119 --> 00:47:52,639
Speaker 1: losing someone that you were very close with. But the

840
00:47:52,679 --> 00:47:54,759
Speaker 1: other part is that I don't think that you ever

841
00:47:54,799 --> 00:47:58,679
Speaker 1: really learned how to get close in a way that

842
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:02,919
Speaker 1: felt safe, that speaking up felt terrifying in your family.

843
00:48:04,119 --> 00:48:08,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, that definitely resonates. I was also like a very

844
00:48:08,999 --> 00:48:13,159
Speaker 4: quiet kid, and I didn't really start talking a lot

845
00:48:13,279 --> 00:48:17,559
Speaker 4: until honestly, like even in high school, I was pretty shy,

846
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:22,919
Speaker 4: and I didn't really start being more open and vocal

847
00:48:23,079 --> 00:48:25,839
Speaker 4: and putting myself out there until I was in college,

848
00:48:25,919 --> 00:48:29,559
Speaker 4: until like my sophomore year of college, when I kind

849
00:48:29,639 --> 00:48:32,879
Speaker 4: of just let everything go in a lot of ways.

850
00:48:33,439 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 1: You might be shy, or you might have been shy,

851
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,959
Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean that you don't have a circus

852
00:48:39,999 --> 00:48:43,679
Speaker 1: going on in your head. Okay, it's very loud in there.

853
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:46,399
Speaker 1: There's a lot going on there. It's not as though

854
00:48:46,439 --> 00:48:50,599
Speaker 1: there's an absence of intense feeling of lots of things

855
00:48:50,639 --> 00:48:54,559
Speaker 1: swirling around there all the time. This relationship that you

856
00:48:54,639 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 1: have right now to the person that you work with

857
00:48:58,759 --> 00:49:01,639
Speaker 1: is very alive and very active in your mind, even

858
00:49:01,679 --> 00:49:03,519
Speaker 1: though you haven't vocalized anything to him.

859
00:49:04,639 --> 00:49:07,999
Speaker 3: To echo Lorre's point, you mentioned I think in your

860
00:49:08,079 --> 00:49:10,959
Speaker 3: letter that your friends, like you know, roll their eyes

861
00:49:10,959 --> 00:49:12,639
Speaker 3: a bit or something like that, where oh, you and

862
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:16,599
Speaker 3: your older men kind of fixation kind of thing. But

863
00:49:16,679 --> 00:49:19,479
Speaker 3: I think that that's also a sign that maybe you're

864
00:49:19,519 --> 00:49:23,599
Speaker 3: not opening up to them to really talk about how

865
00:49:23,639 --> 00:49:26,879
Speaker 3: you're feeling, what your needs are, what your hopes are,

866
00:49:27,159 --> 00:49:28,919
Speaker 3: what it would be like to be in a relationship

867
00:49:28,919 --> 00:49:34,479
Speaker 3: with someone who could reciprocate. And I think it's easier

868
00:49:34,519 --> 00:49:37,479
Speaker 3: to talk about, oh, the professor and the married guy

869
00:49:37,599 --> 00:49:41,959
Speaker 3: than talking about and yet I'm really lonely and I

870
00:49:42,039 --> 00:49:44,839
Speaker 3: really want someone, and I don't know how to go

871
00:49:44,959 --> 00:49:47,759
Speaker 3: about it because it's very, very scary out there in

872
00:49:47,799 --> 00:49:51,839
Speaker 3: the dating world. Do you have those kinds of conversations

873
00:49:51,839 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 3: with your friends where you talk about that, Yeah.

874
00:49:55,599 --> 00:49:58,559
Speaker 4: I mean we talk about dating and stuff.

875
00:49:58,759 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 1: But do you hear the difference between talking about dating

876
00:50:01,319 --> 00:50:03,919
Speaker 1: and having the kind of conversation with your friends about

877
00:50:03,999 --> 00:50:07,319
Speaker 1: you not dating in general and the kinds of general

878
00:50:07,359 --> 00:50:09,719
Speaker 1: stories people talk about about being in the try trenches,

879
00:50:09,759 --> 00:50:13,879
Speaker 1: but about something specific to you, which is I really

880
00:50:13,919 --> 00:50:18,239
Speaker 1: struggle with putting myself out there emotionally. I really struggle

881
00:50:18,519 --> 00:50:22,719
Speaker 1: with getting close to someone and risking having that go away.

882
00:50:23,359 --> 00:50:27,359
Speaker 1: I really struggle with the possibility of rejection. I really

883
00:50:27,399 --> 00:50:29,559
Speaker 1: struggle with the fact that my dad died and I

884
00:50:29,599 --> 00:50:32,159
Speaker 1: haven't quite dealt with it in a way that I

885
00:50:32,199 --> 00:50:34,879
Speaker 1: think would be helpful for me. Did you ever talk

886
00:50:34,919 --> 00:50:39,079
Speaker 1: to them about that? Not so much.

887
00:50:39,279 --> 00:50:39,399
Speaker 4: Now.

888
00:50:40,439 --> 00:50:43,479
Speaker 1: I really struggle with the fact that not only did

889
00:50:43,479 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 1: my dad die, but then my mom was really dealing

890
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:48,359
Speaker 1: with this, and I felt very alone. I didn't feel

891
00:50:48,359 --> 00:50:49,679
Speaker 1: like I had a parent anymore.

892
00:50:50,679 --> 00:50:51,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, not really.

893
00:50:53,719 --> 00:51:00,119
Speaker 1: How much emotional real estate goes toward thinking about the

894
00:51:00,199 --> 00:51:06,119
Speaker 1: different men that you have been really interested in, and

895
00:51:06,279 --> 00:51:11,439
Speaker 1: particularly right now with the current person, what do you

896
00:51:11,439 --> 00:51:16,399
Speaker 1: think would replace that if you weren't thinking about him?

897
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:18,599
Speaker 1: And it sounds like you think about him quite a bit,

898
00:51:18,639 --> 00:51:20,159
Speaker 1: and you talk about him quite a bit, to the

899
00:51:20,159 --> 00:51:23,799
Speaker 1: point that your friends are saying enough already, what do

900
00:51:23,799 --> 00:51:25,479
Speaker 1: you think you'd be thinking about if you weren't thinking

901
00:51:25,479 --> 00:51:27,839
Speaker 1: about him?

902
00:51:28,119 --> 00:51:32,079
Speaker 4: I know that when I was thinking about the professor

903
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:37,679
Speaker 4: a lot, and I would stop doing that. I would

904
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:43,679
Speaker 4: think about my dad a lot, And now I would

905
00:51:43,839 --> 00:51:48,959
Speaker 4: probably think about my brother who's been having a really

906
00:51:49,039 --> 00:51:49,599
Speaker 4: hard time.

907
00:51:51,319 --> 00:51:56,439
Speaker 1: And so when you hear yourself say that, can you

908
00:51:56,559 --> 00:52:02,359
Speaker 1: hear that these distractions can serve is almost like a drug,

909
00:52:03,279 --> 00:52:05,719
Speaker 1: Like I'm going to put the needle in because I

910
00:52:05,759 --> 00:52:07,399
Speaker 1: don't want to think about these other things. I'm going

911
00:52:07,479 --> 00:52:12,719
Speaker 1: to numb myself with thoughts about people I don't have

912
00:52:12,759 --> 00:52:15,639
Speaker 1: to get that close to, but it feels good to

913
00:52:15,999 --> 00:52:19,119
Speaker 1: fantasize about it or imagine it. And when you take

914
00:52:19,159 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 1: the needle out, you start to say, oh, what's there

915
00:52:22,839 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 1: that's about my dad or my brother? And I think

916
00:52:27,399 --> 00:52:32,279
Speaker 1: underneath that even is this intense loneliness. And we don't

917
00:52:32,279 --> 00:52:40,079
Speaker 1: want you to have to feel so lonely. So, Emma,

918
00:52:40,119 --> 00:52:42,639
Speaker 1: we have some advice for you, and what we'd like

919
00:52:42,679 --> 00:52:45,839
Speaker 1: you to do is we would like you to call

920
00:52:45,879 --> 00:52:49,719
Speaker 1: your mom, and we would like you to start a

921
00:52:49,759 --> 00:52:52,599
Speaker 1: conversation with her by saying, you know what, Mom, there's

922
00:52:52,639 --> 00:52:57,399
Speaker 1: this guy that I can't stop thinking about. And I

923
00:52:57,479 --> 00:53:00,599
Speaker 1: realized that if I stop thinking about him, what I

924
00:53:00,599 --> 00:53:07,519
Speaker 1: would be thinking about would be Dad. And I would

925
00:53:07,599 --> 00:53:12,079
Speaker 1: like to be able to talk with you about what

926
00:53:12,119 --> 00:53:16,359
Speaker 1: this experience has been like for our family. And I'd

927
00:53:16,439 --> 00:53:18,719
Speaker 1: like to be able to share with you a little

928
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:20,959
Speaker 1: bit about what has been like for me. I know

929
00:53:20,999 --> 00:53:26,919
Speaker 1: you've certainly struggled with it, understandably so and so do

930
00:53:26,959 --> 00:53:28,919
Speaker 1: you think that I could share a little bit with

931
00:53:28,959 --> 00:53:32,639
Speaker 1: you about what this has been like for me? To

932
00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:35,879
Speaker 1: go through Dad's illness and to lose Dad. Could we

933
00:53:35,999 --> 00:53:40,679
Speaker 1: start maybe opening up those conversations. And I want to

934
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:42,519
Speaker 1: be clear that it's not like you're going to go

935
00:53:42,599 --> 00:53:46,879
Speaker 1: through the last ten years in that one conversation. It

936
00:53:46,879 --> 00:53:51,239
Speaker 1: will probably be dipping your toe in and letting your

937
00:53:51,279 --> 00:53:54,799
Speaker 1: mom acclimate to what it's like to have these kinds

938
00:53:54,799 --> 00:53:57,439
Speaker 1: of conversations in the family, because your family wasn't a

939
00:53:57,479 --> 00:53:59,999
Speaker 1: family who had these kinds of conversations even before your

940
00:54:00,079 --> 00:54:05,039
Speaker 1: dad became ill, and just sort of gauge her reaction

941
00:54:05,519 --> 00:54:07,799
Speaker 1: and be able to tell her maybe a little bit

942
00:54:07,839 --> 00:54:11,559
Speaker 1: about you know, I realized that I haven't really dealt

943
00:54:11,559 --> 00:54:15,479
Speaker 1: with it, and it would feel so good to be

944
00:54:15,559 --> 00:54:18,879
Speaker 1: able to talk about it with you because we've been

945
00:54:18,879 --> 00:54:22,639
Speaker 1: through it sort of in the family together, and see

946
00:54:22,639 --> 00:54:25,119
Speaker 1: what that's like, See what happens for her when you

947
00:54:25,279 --> 00:54:28,679
Speaker 1: open it up in that way. And we'd like you

948
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:32,079
Speaker 1: to have a similar conversation with your brother and you

949
00:54:32,159 --> 00:54:35,159
Speaker 1: might open it up with him and say, you know what,

950
00:54:35,199 --> 00:54:38,079
Speaker 1: there's this guy that I think about a lot. And

951
00:54:38,119 --> 00:54:43,079
Speaker 1: I realized that if I were to stop thinking about him,

952
00:54:43,559 --> 00:54:46,919
Speaker 1: I would be thinking about Dad, and I would also

953
00:54:46,999 --> 00:54:49,759
Speaker 1: be worried about you, because I know that you're struggling

954
00:54:49,799 --> 00:54:52,839
Speaker 1: a lot too, and I would love to be able

955
00:54:52,879 --> 00:54:57,639
Speaker 1: to talk the two of us as siblings about what

956
00:54:57,679 --> 00:55:00,759
Speaker 1: we're struggling with and what we're going through and maybe

957
00:55:00,759 --> 00:55:03,079
Speaker 1: have more direct conversations about that, because I think it

958
00:55:03,079 --> 00:55:07,119
Speaker 1: would be really helpful for both of us and see

959
00:55:07,159 --> 00:55:10,839
Speaker 1: what that conversation is like with him. And we also

960
00:55:10,839 --> 00:55:12,959
Speaker 1: feel like that would help you do some of your

961
00:55:13,279 --> 00:55:16,719
Speaker 1: grief work that hasn't been done yet. How does that

962
00:55:16,759 --> 00:55:17,279
Speaker 1: sound to you?

963
00:55:18,439 --> 00:55:21,279
Speaker 4: That sounds hard but manageable.

964
00:55:22,759 --> 00:55:26,119
Speaker 3: Okay, good Emma. There's the second part you wrote to

965
00:55:26,199 --> 00:55:29,679
Speaker 3: us about dating, and we have some advice for you

966
00:55:29,759 --> 00:55:33,119
Speaker 3: there as well. You probably spend many hours a day

967
00:55:33,519 --> 00:55:37,159
Speaker 3: thinking about the guide from work, and those are in

968
00:55:37,279 --> 00:55:40,079
Speaker 3: essence a bit wasted hours because there's nothing that's going

969
00:55:40,119 --> 00:55:42,879
Speaker 3: to really happen there. Would like you to convert at

970
00:55:42,959 --> 00:55:44,679
Speaker 3: least an hour of that time where you would be

971
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:51,599
Speaker 3: thinking about him, to thinking about more likely suspects for dating.

972
00:55:52,119 --> 00:55:53,999
Speaker 3: And are you on any dating apps?

973
00:55:54,959 --> 00:55:55,159
Speaker 4: Yeah?

974
00:55:56,159 --> 00:56:00,479
Speaker 3: Great. We would like you to spend at least an

975
00:56:00,559 --> 00:56:06,159
Speaker 3: hour a day talking with age appropriate people. Now, we

976
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:09,439
Speaker 3: had a debate about what that is for you and

977
00:56:09,999 --> 00:56:13,759
Speaker 3: I suggested be cappy with thirty. Lourie said, thirty five.

978
00:56:13,839 --> 00:56:16,719
Speaker 3: We're going to agree on thirty five. We would like

979
00:56:16,799 --> 00:56:21,359
Speaker 3: you to try, if you can within this week set

980
00:56:21,439 --> 00:56:27,359
Speaker 3: up a FaceTime date or a socially distanced one with

981
00:56:27,519 --> 00:56:32,039
Speaker 3: somebody within that age range. You've spent so many years

982
00:56:32,759 --> 00:56:38,519
Speaker 3: dealing with loss and grief and illness and not being

983
00:56:38,519 --> 00:56:42,439
Speaker 3: able to really have that young adulthood that you really

984
00:56:42,479 --> 00:56:46,439
Speaker 3: want to have in part, and we don't want you

985
00:56:46,479 --> 00:56:50,039
Speaker 3: to waste too many more years on the unavailable older

986
00:56:50,039 --> 00:56:53,039
Speaker 3: guys who can't give you that, So we would like

987
00:56:53,079 --> 00:56:55,919
Speaker 3: you to spend this time trying to get at least one,

988
00:56:56,759 --> 00:57:01,719
Speaker 3: and just to remind yourself of those options and that

989
00:57:02,039 --> 00:57:05,239
Speaker 3: there are people out there in that age range who

990
00:57:05,319 --> 00:57:09,599
Speaker 3: are mature enough and open enough for you that you

991
00:57:09,599 --> 00:57:11,679
Speaker 3: can have a relationship with potentially.

992
00:57:12,519 --> 00:57:15,439
Speaker 1: And we want you to make sure that the age

993
00:57:15,519 --> 00:57:18,599
Speaker 1: range really is twenty five to thirty five, so that

994
00:57:18,639 --> 00:57:21,879
Speaker 1: you are considering people who are your own age because

995
00:57:21,879 --> 00:57:25,479
Speaker 1: I think there's a story that you're telling yourself, particularly

996
00:57:25,519 --> 00:57:28,239
Speaker 1: about the person that is the object of your affection

997
00:57:28,399 --> 00:57:32,439
Speaker 1: right now, that somehow he's deeper and kind of understand

998
00:57:32,479 --> 00:57:36,399
Speaker 1: you better than someone in your own age range. And

999
00:57:36,479 --> 00:57:40,239
Speaker 1: yet nothing deep has transpired between the two of you.

1000
00:57:40,719 --> 00:57:43,559
Speaker 1: There has not been one hint of the depth of

1001
00:57:43,599 --> 00:57:47,119
Speaker 1: his inner life in anything that has transpired between the

1002
00:57:47,119 --> 00:57:49,359
Speaker 1: two of you, other than that you admire his work.

1003
00:57:49,959 --> 00:57:52,879
Speaker 1: So we also are giving you the ticking clock of

1004
00:57:52,919 --> 00:57:56,639
Speaker 1: the week because you have all kinds of excuses for

1005
00:57:57,159 --> 00:58:00,879
Speaker 1: you know why, nobody is appropriate. We are forcing the issue,

1006
00:58:01,719 --> 00:58:04,279
Speaker 1: and we are making you choose someone. We're not looking

1007
00:58:04,279 --> 00:58:08,679
Speaker 1: for perfect. We're making you choose someone that you think

1008
00:58:08,679 --> 00:58:11,359
Speaker 1: you might have a nice conversation with. That is the

1009
00:58:11,399 --> 00:58:15,319
Speaker 1: extent of it. As part of this exercise, we would

1010
00:58:15,359 --> 00:58:18,519
Speaker 1: like you to tell your friends, who are so tired

1011
00:58:18,559 --> 00:58:23,119
Speaker 1: of hearing you talk about this other guy, Hey, I

1012
00:58:23,159 --> 00:58:25,719
Speaker 1: am really making a concerted effort to meet someone my

1013
00:58:25,799 --> 00:58:29,239
Speaker 1: own age. Is there anyone you can think about introducing

1014
00:58:29,239 --> 00:58:33,879
Speaker 1: me to. Just making it clear to your friends that, hey,

1015
00:58:34,159 --> 00:58:36,279
Speaker 1: I want you to know that instead of spending all

1016
00:58:36,279 --> 00:58:38,279
Speaker 1: that time talking to them about oh my gosh. And

1017
00:58:38,279 --> 00:58:39,999
Speaker 1: here's what happened. And we had this interchange and he

1018
00:58:40,039 --> 00:58:41,639
Speaker 1: looked at me this way, and here's what happened at

1019
00:58:41,679 --> 00:58:44,719
Speaker 1: work To say, you know what, I'm not going to

1020
00:58:44,719 --> 00:58:47,919
Speaker 1: spend my time talking about him with you anymore. So

1021
00:58:48,039 --> 00:58:50,959
Speaker 1: we want you to stop talking about him with your friends.

1022
00:58:51,239 --> 00:58:52,999
Speaker 1: We want you to talk about the things that you

1023
00:58:53,039 --> 00:58:55,359
Speaker 1: would be talking about if you weren't talking about him.

1024
00:58:55,399 --> 00:58:59,719
Speaker 1: Talk about your dad, talk about your fear, talk about

1025
00:58:59,759 --> 00:59:02,199
Speaker 1: this new idea of I'm going to be open to

1026
00:59:02,199 --> 00:59:05,879
Speaker 1: meeting people in my age range. Talk about movies that

1027
00:59:05,919 --> 00:59:08,279
Speaker 1: you saw, talk about books that you read, talk about

1028
00:59:08,319 --> 00:59:10,759
Speaker 1: the things you would be talking about if you weren't

1029
00:59:10,799 --> 00:59:17,159
Speaker 1: on the drug. Okay, all right, all right, So we

1030
00:59:17,199 --> 00:59:20,719
Speaker 1: look forward to hearing how the conversations go and how

1031
00:59:20,759 --> 00:59:25,439
Speaker 1: the dating goes, and we will hear back from you shortly.

1032
00:59:26,279 --> 00:59:37,839
Speaker 3: Thank you. What became clear to me in this conversation

1033
00:59:37,919 --> 00:59:42,199
Speaker 3: with Emma was the extent to which these infatuations with

1034
00:59:42,319 --> 00:59:46,479
Speaker 3: the older men are truly distractions from dealing both with

1035
00:59:46,559 --> 00:59:49,799
Speaker 3: the pain of losing her dad and with a fear

1036
00:59:50,559 --> 00:59:55,479
Speaker 3: of finding someone whose age appropriate, of entering into her

1037
00:59:55,479 --> 00:59:58,559
Speaker 3: own relationships, of dealing with loneliness, of dealing with the

1038
00:59:58,679 --> 01:00:02,439
Speaker 3: risk of rejection. And I hope that our homework for

1039
01:00:02,559 --> 01:00:05,839
Speaker 3: her will help her break out of that.

1040
01:00:06,879 --> 01:00:10,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we're trying to redirect her and help

1041
01:00:10,359 --> 01:00:13,919
Speaker 1: her to deal with what's really going on when people

1042
01:00:14,039 --> 01:00:17,359
Speaker 1: ruminate like that, when they sort of ruminate and obsessed.

1043
01:00:17,399 --> 01:00:19,679
Speaker 1: She said, she thinks about him all the time. That's

1044
01:00:19,719 --> 01:00:23,559
Speaker 1: all she can think about. Studies show that in order

1045
01:00:23,639 --> 01:00:27,239
Speaker 1: to break that, you need to focus on something concrete

1046
01:00:27,319 --> 01:00:30,919
Speaker 1: for a specific amount of time, just to kind of

1047
01:00:30,959 --> 01:00:34,479
Speaker 1: reset your brain. And so I think giving her that

1048
01:00:34,719 --> 01:00:38,599
Speaker 1: hour where we're saying, Okay, you want to obsess eight

1049
01:00:38,639 --> 01:00:40,999
Speaker 1: hours a day, that's fine, do what you need to do,

1050
01:00:41,319 --> 01:00:44,519
Speaker 1: but on this ninth hour, we're going to have you

1051
01:00:44,599 --> 01:00:47,639
Speaker 1: do this task. It will give her the opportunity to

1052
01:00:47,679 --> 01:00:50,599
Speaker 1: take the needle out for an hour and to access

1053
01:00:51,199 --> 01:00:55,239
Speaker 1: all that she is trying to distract herself from, because

1054
01:00:55,279 --> 01:00:57,599
Speaker 1: I think what she will find is that her fear

1055
01:00:57,879 --> 01:01:02,639
Speaker 1: of her feelings is a lot scarier than the feelings themselves.

1056
01:01:07,439 --> 01:01:10,919
Speaker 3: You're listening to Deo Therapists Hout Radio. We'll be back

1057
01:01:10,959 --> 01:01:25,599
Speaker 3: after a quick break. We did not receive a voicemail

1058
01:01:25,959 --> 01:01:28,559
Speaker 3: from Emma. This is the first time that we haven't

1059
01:01:28,599 --> 01:01:31,679
Speaker 3: received a voicemail from one of our guests, one of

1060
01:01:31,719 --> 01:01:35,959
Speaker 3: our fellow travelers. We asked our producer to reach out

1061
01:01:36,239 --> 01:01:39,119
Speaker 3: to Emma and inquire about it and remind her and

1062
01:01:39,199 --> 01:01:42,239
Speaker 3: she did, and to ask if there was any reason

1063
01:01:42,799 --> 01:01:47,159
Speaker 3: that Emma didn't send the voicemail, and Emma actually said no,

1064
01:01:47,399 --> 01:01:50,479
Speaker 3: that she just was busy and didn't have a chance

1065
01:01:50,519 --> 01:01:52,999
Speaker 3: to get to it, that she would, but again she

1066
01:01:53,079 --> 01:01:55,319
Speaker 3: did not. Even after she said that, we still didn't

1067
01:01:55,359 --> 01:01:58,399
Speaker 3: get a voicemail. And so we're going to discuss a

1068
01:01:58,439 --> 01:02:01,319
Speaker 3: little bit about what that might be and why that

1069
01:02:01,399 --> 01:02:02,079
Speaker 3: might be going.

1070
01:02:01,919 --> 01:02:06,199
Speaker 1: On, right, and so something like that happens when we

1071
01:02:06,239 --> 01:02:09,399
Speaker 1: have that happen in the therapy room, for example, and

1072
01:02:09,919 --> 01:02:13,399
Speaker 1: somebody says they're going to do something and then they

1073
01:02:13,439 --> 01:02:15,839
Speaker 1: don't follow through, and then we talk about it and

1074
01:02:15,879 --> 01:02:17,879
Speaker 1: they say they're going to follow through and they don't.

1075
01:02:18,959 --> 01:02:21,679
Speaker 1: We didn't have the opportunity with Emma to really understand

1076
01:02:21,719 --> 01:02:24,639
Speaker 1: more about what was going on for her, but based

1077
01:02:24,679 --> 01:02:27,479
Speaker 1: on our conversation with her, it did seem like there

1078
01:02:27,559 --> 01:02:30,559
Speaker 1: was a lot of avoidance going on of really dealing

1079
01:02:30,599 --> 01:02:35,639
Speaker 1: with the impact that her father's long illness and death

1080
01:02:36,079 --> 01:02:38,639
Speaker 1: had on her all through her teen years and then

1081
01:02:38,639 --> 01:02:42,719
Speaker 1: through her college years. And what we were asking her

1082
01:02:42,759 --> 01:02:47,239
Speaker 1: to do was to really go to places that maybe

1083
01:02:47,279 --> 01:02:49,199
Speaker 1: she wasn't ready to go to.

1084
01:02:50,439 --> 01:02:53,959
Speaker 3: What happens often is that when somebody comes and tells

1085
01:02:54,039 --> 01:02:56,799
Speaker 3: us their story and hear the story was I get

1086
01:02:56,839 --> 01:03:00,159
Speaker 3: into these relationships with older men. It doesn't work well

1087
01:03:00,159 --> 01:03:04,159
Speaker 3: for me with the younger men my age, and we

1088
01:03:04,319 --> 01:03:07,439
Speaker 3: as therapists, our job is to tell them, often a

1089
01:03:07,479 --> 01:03:11,199
Speaker 3: different story than their story, and in this case, the

1090
01:03:11,239 --> 01:03:14,359
Speaker 3: story was you had a lot of trauma and loss

1091
01:03:14,599 --> 01:03:17,839
Speaker 3: with losing your dad, and you had a lot of

1092
01:03:17,879 --> 01:03:22,919
Speaker 3: hesitation about getting hurt, and so it was safer to

1093
01:03:22,999 --> 01:03:25,919
Speaker 3: go with older men who didn't really have a relationship

1094
01:03:25,919 --> 01:03:29,839
Speaker 3: with you had crushes on, than to deal with the

1095
01:03:29,879 --> 01:03:32,359
Speaker 3: fear and the anxiety and the hurt and the potential

1096
01:03:32,399 --> 01:03:37,079
Speaker 3: loss of somebody more in your age bracket than somebody

1097
01:03:37,119 --> 01:03:40,599
Speaker 3: who's twenty or thirty years older. And that is what

1098
01:03:40,639 --> 01:03:42,599
Speaker 3: she then had to confront. And I think that it

1099
01:03:42,759 --> 01:03:45,799
Speaker 3: wasn't just the task she wasn't ready for, but it

1100
01:03:45,879 --> 01:03:49,839
Speaker 3: was the narrative that we were proposing that she was

1101
01:03:49,839 --> 01:03:51,639
Speaker 3: struggling to accept.

1102
01:03:52,479 --> 01:03:56,359
Speaker 1: I think you're right about really embracing this other part

1103
01:03:56,359 --> 01:03:58,759
Speaker 1: of the narrative, and maybe she's having some trouble with that,

1104
01:03:59,959 --> 01:04:03,759
Speaker 1: But I also think that those relationships served as an

1105
01:04:03,919 --> 01:04:08,279
Speaker 1: escape for her from really dealing with the grief and

1106
01:04:08,319 --> 01:04:11,839
Speaker 1: the loss, and when we talked to her about what

1107
01:04:11,919 --> 01:04:15,359
Speaker 1: would you be thinking about if you weren't obsessing about

1108
01:04:16,159 --> 01:04:18,959
Speaker 1: the current guy and if you hadn't been obsessing about

1109
01:04:19,239 --> 01:04:22,839
Speaker 1: the professor, and she said, I'd be thinking about my dad.

1110
01:04:24,959 --> 01:04:28,439
Speaker 1: And I think that when we asked her to talk

1111
01:04:28,439 --> 01:04:30,639
Speaker 1: to her mom and talk to her brother about maybe

1112
01:04:30,719 --> 01:04:34,079
Speaker 1: opening up these conversations in the family about the impact

1113
01:04:34,319 --> 01:04:38,199
Speaker 1: that this experience has had on all of them, that

1114
01:04:38,319 --> 01:04:44,479
Speaker 1: maybe that was something that she's not ready to do yet.

1115
01:04:44,519 --> 01:04:47,519
Speaker 1: That it feels so good in a certain way to

1116
01:04:47,559 --> 01:04:49,279
Speaker 1: hold on to well, let me think about the guy

1117
01:04:49,319 --> 01:04:51,079
Speaker 1: at work and what does that mean that he said that?

1118
01:04:51,119 --> 01:04:53,439
Speaker 1: And was he flirting with me? And is he ever

1119
01:04:53,519 --> 01:04:58,639
Speaker 1: going to leave his wife for me? Then to say, hey, mom,

1120
01:04:59,199 --> 01:05:02,799
Speaker 1: hey brother, we have a lot of stuff that maybe

1121
01:05:02,799 --> 01:05:03,719
Speaker 1: we should talk about.

1122
01:05:04,639 --> 01:05:06,719
Speaker 3: I agree. And I think the other part of that

1123
01:05:06,879 --> 01:05:10,999
Speaker 3: is it also was safer to think about the married

1124
01:05:10,999 --> 01:05:12,879
Speaker 3: guy at work than it is to deal with the

1125
01:05:12,879 --> 01:05:19,159
Speaker 3: potential hurt and disappointment of taking someone that could actually

1126
01:05:19,919 --> 01:05:23,999
Speaker 3: reciprocate and have a real relationship with all the fears

1127
01:05:24,039 --> 01:05:25,599
Speaker 3: that go with entering into that.

1128
01:05:26,679 --> 01:05:28,999
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I have a lot of compassion for Emma

1129
01:05:29,079 --> 01:05:32,319
Speaker 1: because I think by not reporting back to us on

1130
01:05:32,799 --> 01:05:35,199
Speaker 1: how these tasks went, and I think that means that

1131
01:05:35,239 --> 01:05:39,999
Speaker 1: she didn't do them, that she was sending us a message.

1132
01:05:40,479 --> 01:05:43,559
Speaker 1: But again there's that avoidance of instead of saying to

1133
01:05:43,599 --> 01:05:46,319
Speaker 1: our producer, you know what I thought about it, but

1134
01:05:46,439 --> 01:05:49,599
Speaker 1: I just I'm not really ready to do these things yet,

1135
01:05:49,639 --> 01:05:53,239
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry, and just being direct about it, she

1136
01:05:53,399 --> 01:05:55,279
Speaker 1: just said, oh, yeah, I'm going to have it by tomorrow.

1137
01:05:55,319 --> 01:05:57,559
Speaker 1: I'm going to have it by this day, and then

1138
01:05:58,359 --> 01:06:01,279
Speaker 1: radio silence. We just never heard. So I think there's

1139
01:06:01,319 --> 01:06:04,839
Speaker 1: that question about you know, what makes it hard for

1140
01:06:04,879 --> 01:06:09,039
Speaker 1: her to actually be direct instead of avoiding something that

1141
01:06:09,119 --> 01:06:09,999
Speaker 1: might difficult.

1142
01:06:10,559 --> 01:06:13,759
Speaker 3: And we know from our practices that people have to

1143
01:06:13,799 --> 01:06:17,919
Speaker 3: be ready to make the changes that we try and

1144
01:06:17,959 --> 01:06:22,319
Speaker 3: help them make. And I hope that when Emma feels ready,

1145
01:06:22,959 --> 01:06:25,079
Speaker 3: she'll know the path that she has to take.

1146
01:06:31,159 --> 01:06:34,199
Speaker 1: Next week, we'll get updates from last season sessions to

1147
01:06:34,279 --> 01:06:36,959
Speaker 1: find out how our advice worked out a year later.

1148
01:06:37,359 --> 01:06:40,999
Speaker 6: I was always taught that your parents will live with

1149
01:06:41,039 --> 01:06:42,879
Speaker 6: you and you take care of them for the rest

1150
01:06:42,879 --> 01:06:45,919
Speaker 6: of your life. There's no other option. So when you

1151
01:06:46,199 --> 01:06:50,719
Speaker 6: both presented something else to me and gave me permission

1152
01:06:50,759 --> 01:06:54,759
Speaker 6: of a sort that that was life changing.

1153
01:06:55,039 --> 01:06:58,439
Speaker 1: Hey fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,

1154
01:06:58,639 --> 01:07:01,079
Speaker 1: don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't

1155
01:07:01,079 --> 01:07:04,679
Speaker 1: miss any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by

1156
01:07:04,719 --> 01:07:06,919
Speaker 1: telling your friends about it and leaving a review on

1157
01:07:06,959 --> 01:07:10,399
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.

1158
01:07:10,999 --> 01:07:13,199
Speaker 3: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

1159
01:07:13,279 --> 01:07:18,479
Speaker 3: Bigo Smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.

1160
01:07:18,679 --> 01:07:22,279
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

1161
01:07:22,319 --> 01:07:26,519
Speaker 1: by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns

1162
01:07:26,519 --> 01:07:30,079
Speaker 1: are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Alison

1163
01:07:30,119 --> 01:07:33,599
Speaker 1: Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Couric.

1164
01:07:34,319 --> 01:07:36,559
Speaker 3: We can't wait to see you at next week's session.

1165
01:07:36,799 --> 01:07:39,719
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.