WEBVTT - #575 Jason Flom with Larry DeLisle 0:00:05.240 --> 0:00:08.360 Hello once again. This is Connor Hall, senior producer for 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:12.559 Rafel Conviction, where I'll be offering case updates, behind the 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:16.160 scenes info and insights from cases we've covered over the years, 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:20.600 and one case that comes to mind is Larry Delisle. 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:25.200 I've gotten a lot of emails from folks on the inside, 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:30.240 but Larry is probably the most prolific for two reasons. 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:33.960 He usually writes to me during holidays or major life events, 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:37.000 which gives him plenty of reasons to write. And two, 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:39.880 it's just been so many years since we started writing 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:43.880 each other. I mean, my son was just a few 0:00:43.920 --> 0:00:47.199 months old when we met, and he's going on seven now, 0:00:47.960 --> 0:00:52.040 and that's not too far off from Larry's oldest. Back 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:56.240 in nineteen eighty nine when all this happened, he and 0:00:56.280 --> 0:01:01.880 his wife Sue lost all four of their children one 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:06.720 tragic summer evening when it appears that the accelerator and 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:10.560 their station wagon jammed and they sailed into the Detroit 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:16.679 River and only Larry and Sue survived. Larry was not 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:19.880 only accused of the murder of all four of his children, 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:25.039 but Sue's attempted murder as well, but she stuck by him. 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:28.600 I mean there's video of this conviction where I mean 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:32.000 she falls apart. You can see it on the confession 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:36.280 tapes on Netflix. And beyond that, even after she moved 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:38.880 on to start a new life and got married, I mean, 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:43.920 she remained committed to his innocence, which makes what happened 0:01:43.920 --> 0:01:49.520 at his parole hearing in twenty twenty three so strange. See, 0:01:49.560 --> 0:01:52.640 after the release of our initial coverage in twenty twenty one, 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:57.560 Jason advocated to whomever would listen, and the University of 0:01:57.640 --> 0:02:01.040 Michigan Innocence Clinic picked up Larry's case prepared for his 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:05.200 parole hearing, And I remember talking to Jason right after 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:08.359 the hearing, and apparently it had been going really well. 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:13.720 I mean, they exposed the false confession, the evidence of 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:16.960 the car's accelerator issues that was presented, as well as 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:20.880 how the state's expert had corroborated that those issues existed 0:02:20.960 --> 0:02:24.880 in his initial report, only to then contradict it on 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:29.400 the stand. But then, for some reason, after thirty four 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:33.120 years of knowing that this was all just a tragic accident, 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:39.240 a lawyer read a prepared statement allegedly from Sue, which 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:45.440 reversed over three decades of support for Larry's innocence. From 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:49.200 what I understand, her husband with no knowledge beyond what 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:52.240 was in the media at the time, which was nothing 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:58.560 short of an orgy of projection and violence, voyeurism with 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:01.720 a head full of that her new husband has believed 0:03:01.800 --> 0:03:04.119 in Larry's guilt for all of these years, and who 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:07.920 knows may have been in her ear about it, or 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:11.040 may have been the catalyst for this alleged statement that 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:14.440 Sue didn't even bother to show up in person to deliver. 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:19.520 Either way, the accelerator issues in the station wagon corroborate 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:24.720 what Larry has been saying all along, but unfortunately her 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:28.120 statement was weighed more heavily over the course of a 0:03:28.240 --> 0:03:31.400 year and a half after this twenty twenty three parole hearing, 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:36.760 when finally Larry's parol was denied. So maybe when you're 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:40.640 listening to his story, think about whether the physical evidence 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:44.160 should be believed over a change of heart and mind 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:47.480 coming three decades after the fact. 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:53.800 On August third, nineteen eighty nine, after a long, hot 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:56.880 summer day, Larry and Sue Delisle took their four children 0:03:56.960 --> 0:03:59.160 out for ice cream and to watch the boats pass 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:02.200 by on the Detroit When Larry pulled out on the 0:04:02.240 --> 0:04:05.320 street that dead ended at the river. The mechanical defect 0:04:05.320 --> 0:04:08.480 in their station wagon caused the accelerator to stick. The 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:12.800 car sped off uncontrollably, and Larry and Sue's panicked efforts 0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:15.760 could not save them from launching into the Detroit River. 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:20.480 Larry and Sue narrowly survived, but their children Brian, Melissa, 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:24.599 Kate and Emily tragically did not. When the water log 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:27.880 wreck was pulled from the river, the accelerator stuck again 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:32.040 during testing, an issue raised by hundreds of others about 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:35.080 that very make and model station wagon. It was a 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:38.359 tragic accident, but that wasn't good enough for the police, 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:43.200 the media, or the people of Downriver, Michigan. After eighteen 0:04:43.240 --> 0:04:48.000 hours of interrogation and the usual tricks, Larry tacitly agreed 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:52.440 to hypotheticals posed by the interrogator. This couldn't pass muster 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:54.640 as a confession for a court of law, but it 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:57.640 was quickly submitted to the court of public opinion when 0:04:57.640 --> 0:05:00.880 the police chief went on TV and said Larry Delile 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:05.760 had confessed, effectively poisoning the entire jury pool. Larry was 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:09.120 convicted of four counts of murder and one count of 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:15.040 attempted murder, despite Sue Delile's unwavering account of his actual innocence. 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:18.960 This tragic accident stole their four children, and the state 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:23.039 compounded that loss by stealing what has become over three 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:28.440 long decades of Larry's life. This is Wrongful Conviction with 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:44.560 Jason Flamm. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:48.039 That's me, of course, I'm your host, and today my 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:51.440 heart is heavy because of the story you're about to 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:54.359 hear and the man you're about to read. I'm proud 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:57.240 to call him a friend, and I'm proud to be 0:05:57.320 --> 0:06:00.599 part of the team that's helping to try to bring 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:06.880 justice long delayed to this awful case. So, without further ado, 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:11.200 Larry Delisle, Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. I'm sorry you have 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:14.440 to be here, but I'm glad you're here, humble. 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:16.400 And honored to be here with you today. 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:22.040 And Larry is calling us from prison in Michigan. Where 0:06:22.080 --> 0:06:23.560 exactly are you, Larry. 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:28.520 I'm in Coldwater, Michigan, which is a Lakeland Correctional facility. 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:34.560 And what you've gone through is surely unimaginable to almost anyone. 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:40.680 You know, the multiple tragic aspects of this case include 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:45.720 obviously the loss of your family, but also the persecution 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:50.560 that was wrongfully inflicted upon you by people that really 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:55.080 should have known better. And of course, your wrongful incarceration 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:59.040 now for over three decades is another thing that nobody 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:02.279 could even begin to imagine. But I want to go 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:05.040 back to the beginning. Did you grow up in Michigan. 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:09.920 Yes, my grandparents raised me from age throughout two years old. 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:13.480 I mean, your childhood was haunted by a tragedy, A 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:15.800 separate tragedy, right. I mean, I don't know how much 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:18.120 one person is supposed to take in their life, and 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:19.800 I don't even know if you want to talk about that, 0:07:19.840 --> 0:07:22.600 but it does come into focus with this case. As 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:23.400 this goes. 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:26.040 On, you're talking about my father committing suicide. 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:28.080 Yes, of course I got a. 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:30.040 Call in the middle of the night early eighty eight 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:34.720 that my father had committed suicide. He drove down somewhere 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:37.640 by the river and put a gun to his. 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:41.760 Head, ironically, in the same vehicle that ended up being 0:07:41.960 --> 0:07:47.520 the central figure in this awful tragedy that befell your family. 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:51.120 Most people would not have wanted to drive the vehicle. 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:55.920 I didn't want to drive the vehicle. But my father's wife, 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:58.720 she wanted to give us something because my sister and 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:02.760 I find a way our rights to his house, because 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:05.000 we didn't want her to have to remortgage or have 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:08.239 to move. So she gave me the car the option 0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:10.640 of keeping it or selling it. At the time, we 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:14.320 had a brand new nineteen eighty seven ford Errow started. 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:17.240 We had just bought to go to Disneyland November of 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:21.640 eighty seven, when my father had committed suicide, we were 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:24.800 talking about getting rid of the aerostar, getting a cheaper 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:27.000 vehicle so we can knock our bills down to a 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:30.559 point where we can afford to buy a house. Well, 0:08:31.040 --> 0:08:33.880 when my father committed suicide, the place that I worked 0:08:33.880 --> 0:08:37.600 for tiremen, God bless him, they had taken the vehicle. 0:08:38.000 --> 0:08:41.839 They had it completely cleaned on the inside. Now, when 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:44.120 I went there that night to drive the vehicle, I 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:46.440 had mixed emotions. When I got in, I started crying 0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:52.240 right away, but after a few minutes I felt calm 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:55.559 because my father had taken me everywhere with him when 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:59.360 I was younger and older in the station wagon. He 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:02.280 loved station I think that was the second or third one. 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:05.480 So when I drove the vehicle, I felt a peace. 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:09.360 Now it was up to my wife. She drove it. 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:12.360 She loved it because it had a lot of power. 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:15.760 It just happened to have an intrinsic value as far 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:20.280 as helping us to achieve our goals, which would have 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:22.559 been to get a house for our children, to get 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:23.240 a house for us. 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:25.800 Right, well, with four kids, you have obviously in your 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:28.760 a mechanic, and Larry is known in the prison as 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:32.199 someone who can fix basically anything. But even still raising 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:35.080 four kids on that salary, it can't be an easy task. 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:40.480 And this case was featured in the Netflix documentary series 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:44.720 of Confession Tapes by the wonderful Kelly Laudenberg, and encourage 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:47.320 everyone to watch that episode. But let's go back to 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:52.040 the night of this awful accident, and we're talking about 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:55.640 the evening of August third, nineteen eighty nine, a ninety 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:58.679 degree hot summer day and the hottest part of the summer. 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:01.280 This was a very, very hot day, and it was 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:04.760 a very busy day. I worked close to ten hours 0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:08.439 that day, running around on my feet. I got out 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:10.559 of there as quickly as I could, got the kids 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:12.040 in the car, and away we went. 0:10:12.559 --> 0:10:15.920 Larry and his wife and the children Brian, Melissa, Kadie 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:18.760 and Emily had gone for ice cream and were watching 0:10:18.800 --> 0:10:20.920 the boats along the Detroit River, which I know the 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:24.600 kids enjoyed doing that. You had issues with your legs. 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:28.000 I was just not properly hydrated, and it caused my 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:32.239 muscles to cramp up at different points. I've had problems 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:35.400 most of my youth with cramping in my legs. 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:37.959 It actually happened to me in the gym this morning 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:40.960 when I was stretching. So it's not an uncommon thing, 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:43.960 especially when you're dehydrated, like on a hot summer day, 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:47.400 which was what the situation was with you. But there 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:51.880 are a number of things that played into this unspeakable disaster. 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:54.960 And what really happened was as you were leaving to 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:58.080 go home, you were on Eureka Road, which dead ends 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:01.160 at the river. You stepped on the gap, your leg 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:05.240 cramped right up. The car shot off in pain. You 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:07.920 reached down to pull your foot off the gas, but 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:11.439 the car continued to accelerate. Now you didn't know it 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:14.320 at the time, but there was a deep beact that 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:19.319 caused your accelerator jam, propelling the car with the six 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:23.760 of you inside, terrified and screaming through the barricade at 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:27.160 the end of Eureka Road, right into the Detroit River. 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:29.920 I mean, you must have relived it thousands of times 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:30.440 in your head. 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:37.200 Now I try not to. It's still painful today. When 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:41.200 the accelerator stuck, it threw me off. I didn't know 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:44.600 what was stuck. I got my foot off the gas. 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:47.520 My foot was off. My wife even testified my foot 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:49.800 was off. She saw that my foot was off, but 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:54.320 the car did not slow down. Before I could even 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:59.599 do anything further, she reached over in an attempt to 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:04.520 help me. It was an inadvertent act, but it startled 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:08.320 me for a second and I froze, and before I 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:11.319 could decide what I was going to do, we ran 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:14.760 out of street. The whole thing took seven to ten seconds, 0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:18.439 according to officials, seven to ten seconds. 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:20.280 We're talking about a section of the street that was 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:22.640 three hundred and ninety six feet long. We've already talked 0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:24.600 about the fact that the car had a powerful engine 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:28.079 and it wouldn't take any car very long to cover us, 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:30.440 basically just a little bit further than a football field. 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:35.040 So add to I mean, all the other elements of 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:37.679 pure panic and terror. The fact that the kids are 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:40.280 in the car. I'm sure they're screaming, wife's grabbing the wheel, 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:43.480 et cetera, et cetera. You're staring at the water. And 0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:45.280 on top of that, you didn't know how to swim right. 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:49.880 No, I cannot. I can tread water thanks to my 0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:54.520 high school coach. But that's about it. But in the 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:58.840 impact itself, I was thrown forward. Half of my head 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:02.400 hit around the vizor. There was a bright light, a 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:06.240 shot of pain from my neck all the way down 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:09.520 my spine. So I was disoriented once I was in 0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:11.080 the water. I don't even know how I got out of. 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:15.280 The car well, I mean, you know, it's impossible to 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:20.760 probably imagine. And the fact is that this particular vehicle 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:27.320 had known issues. There were over one hundred people who 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:32.200 had reported the accelerator jamming on this exact make and 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:33.400 model station Wagon. 0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:37.000 It was a seventy seven Ford LPD station Wagon four 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:39.400 six PQB against four barrel carburetor. 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:43.520 There was a mechanic who examined the car, Jim Koquell, 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:48.320 and he had identified three separate defects, any one of 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:51.040 which could have caused us uncontrolled acceleration. One was a 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:54.920 kink in the accelerator cable that caused the cable to stick. Secondly, 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:58.280 the throttle plates could be heard scraping inside the carburetor. 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:02.960 And thirdly, the engine mount was broken in this vehicle, 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:06.120 which caused the tilt of the engine, and the tilting 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:10.600 pulled at the accelerator cable. So the combination of these 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:16.320 factors turned deadly. And as it turns out, they chose 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:18.800 to ignore their own test because when they tested the 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:21.360 vehicle after it was pulled out of the river, in 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:23.280 one of the times when they test drove it, the 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:25.400 accelerator did in fact jam. 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:29.760 Yes, when they were testing the vehicle and the accelerator 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:32.680 had stuck, you had two mechanics there, one for the 0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:35.600 state who actually was just a bus mechanic who couldn't 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:38.760 even start the vehicle for testing. We had an ASE 0:14:39.000 --> 0:14:42.600 certified master mechanic for us, who is the one who 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:45.440 found all the problems with the vehicle, had to start 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:48.040 it for them before they could even test it, and 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:51.120 an engineer. They were all there to day that the 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:55.040 test happened when the accelerator stuck. He was sitting next 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:58.920 to the State trooper Sergeant during their tests, and they're 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:01.960 testing it with his on the accelerator, testing the brakes 0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:04.400 to see how long it would take to stop the vehicle. 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:08.040 And I imagine it would be quite a long ways 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:10.320 with only manual brakes work. And you don't have the 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:15.560 power assist, because when you're accelerating, you don't have power assist. 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:19.000 Your power breaks don't work. You have to stand on 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:22.040 them to get it to stop. In the state trooper sergeant, 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:24.160 and he had to do that so hard they broke 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:28.800 the seat. Any case, the arresting officer, he's taking notes. 0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:32.480 He wrote across the top of his notepad in bold letters, 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:36.640 accelerator sticking, then swore under oath when he was up 0:15:36.680 --> 0:15:39.240 on the witness stand. He had no idea why. He 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:42.040 wrote that there was nothing wrong with the car when 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:45.520 the accelerator stuck. The bus mechanic, the master mechanic, and 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:48.760 an engineer, they came running over to the vehicle, according 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:50.880 to my lawyer, and the state trooper waved them away. 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:53.840 He said, no, no, the problems inside the car. You 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:57.520 have engineers and mechanics there to confind it. Get out 0:15:57.560 --> 0:15:59.680 of the car. Let him find out what's sticking right now, 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:04.040 And he refused to do it because the arresting officer 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:06.920 probably didn't want them to find it, because if they 0:16:07.000 --> 0:16:09.200 found a problem, it would approve what I've been saying 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:11.440 from the very beginning and what my wife had been 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:15.160 saying from the very beginning. The accelerator stuck because it 0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:20.040 did for you. He shut it off. He testified that 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:22.720 he shut it off because it startled him. He's six 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:24.880 four to three hundred pounds and it startled him. 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:26.920 Did you expect it to remain come. 0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:30.560 Yes, I'm expected to remain calm. He said. He was 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:32.320 going to start the vehicle back up and put it 0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:33.960 in gear and see how fast it would go. At 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:35.400 that point, all you had to do was put it 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:38.840 in gear. When he shut it off, it voided the test, 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:41.120 and they never got a chance to test it again 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:43.880 because by the time they gave it over to the defense, 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:48.800 the engine had been so roughly treated during their acceleration 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:54.040 test that the engine blew up end of testing, end 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:56.880 of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that there was a 0:16:56.920 --> 0:16:58.400 problem with that station wagon. 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:16.040 In a tragedy like this, community members have a very 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:20.480 difficult time reconciling the fact that these type of tragic 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:25.480 accidents happen when a child is lost, it's easier psychologically 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:30.640 for people to assign blame to someone because the randomness 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:34.360 of it is too terrifying, especially for people with children 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:39.080 to imagine. And in this case, I think that as 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:42.720 well as other sort of confirmation biases took hold. You 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:47.280 were targeted by the media. They hounded you and basically 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:50.720 set up camp outside the house of grieving parents until 0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:53.480 you agreed to give an interview, and then it becomes 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:55.560 And we've seen this in so many cases, whether it's 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:59.080 Amanda Knox or so many others, where the media or 0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:03.000 the authority feel you're either too sad or not sad enough, 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:05.120 or too hysterical or too calm. 0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:07.320 I don't think that people are aware of the fact 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:10.040 that that first interview I did in the backyard, that 0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:12.399 I had had a couple of valumes given to me 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:17.320 by a family member, and I don't even remember the interview. 0:18:17.520 --> 0:18:19.920 All I remember was an airplane going over the top. 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:25.240 So if I didn't show emotion for people, it just 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:27.959 makes me angry that they're going to point to the 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:32.119 fact that I'm not classical as far as how I 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:36.160 was supposed to react to losing my children being hounded 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:42.280 by the press. I'm sorry, it's just dirty upsetting. 0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:46.520 Well, let's move on from there. This is a false 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:50.000 confession case that has all of the hallmarks that we 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:53.280 see again and again, just to paint a picture for everyone. 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:59.639 A week after this unimaginable loss, the police picked you 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:03.399 and Sue your wife up at seven am and interrogated 0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:09.640 you till one in the morning. So that's eighteen hours. 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:13.880 And we know that when this process goes on interminably, 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:18.359 eventually everybody has a breaking point. And even though you 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:22.040 told him again and again I didn't do this, et cetera, 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:23.720 et cetera, they just wouldn't listen. 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:26.959 Is that right to continue to tell me that I 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:30.240 wasn't telling him everything he wanted to hear, and I 0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:33.520 didn't understand what he meant at that point because I 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:35.400 was answering all of his questions. 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:38.399 I can't leave alone the idea that they were expecting 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:42.560 you to recite over and over again exactly what happened 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:45.639 when you didn't actually know what happened. In fact, you 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:48.240 could not have known that this car was defective, or 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:49.720 you wouldn't have been driving the damn thing. 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:53.880 He was asking, what could have happened. Why the accelerator 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:56.840 had stuck and I didn't know. I had my shoes off, 0:19:56.840 --> 0:19:59.479 but the shoe gets stuck in there was the accelerator sticking. 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:03.080 Why isn't it slowing down? Would you take your foot off? 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:05.800 The guests it's supposed to slow down. Period. 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:09.200 Let's face it. There was no explanation that you could 0:20:09.200 --> 0:20:11.720 have provided that would have satisfied them. Because this is 0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:14.440 a very high profile case. The media is all over it, 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:17.919 and everyone had already come to their own conclusions that 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:20.840 you must have done this. So then it gets to 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:25.160 the point where they give you a polygraph, and polygraphs 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:28.879 are wildly inaccurate anyway, but they're effective in terms of 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:31.520 getting people to falsely confess. 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:36.320 I'm doctor Michael Abramski. I am a clinical and forensic psychologist. 0:20:36.440 --> 0:20:40.000 At the time of the wild case, I was studying 0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:43.879 false confessions and I was retained by the court to 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:47.720 examine the confession. So I was provided with the videotape 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:51.440 of the entire interrogation. It's the first half an hour 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:55.800 to forty five minutes. The police officer, Palmitteer kills himself 0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:59.480 up as an expert and infallible and he also did 0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:02.679 the same thing with a polygraph. He said the polygraph 0:21:02.800 --> 0:21:06.119 could read minds, it was infallible, it's never wrong. It 0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:09.520 gives Delial the tests, which only consists of a few questions. 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:12.520 And he leaves the room and he comes back with 0:21:12.600 --> 0:21:17.040 his head shaking and says to Delile you know you 0:21:17.080 --> 0:21:21.400 fail the polygraph. You're lying. The technique is to make 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:26.440 the defendant feel that their situation is totally helpless. So basically, 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:29.960 you set up a dilemma since the polygraph is infallible, 0:21:30.760 --> 0:21:33.440 you think you're telling the truth. It puts you into 0:21:33.440 --> 0:21:36.080 a state of cognitive dissonance. You have to find an 0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:41.720 explanation that entails both of those things. So Palmeteer spends 0:21:42.000 --> 0:21:46.400 hours pumping him, and largely it's not asking questions. It's 0:21:46.440 --> 0:21:50.640 telling him scenarios, telling him why he did this, that oh, 0:21:50.680 --> 0:21:54.600 you're tired and families are burden, and I know how 0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:58.280 hard your life is. So he is empathic with him, 0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:02.240 tells him he understand, implies that you know you're not 0:22:02.280 --> 0:22:06.240 a bad person for this. Lots of people are under stress. 0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:11.119 They do something rash and the people will be understanding. Basically, 0:22:11.280 --> 0:22:13.840 what he's trying to do is get Larry to make 0:22:13.880 --> 0:22:17.960 incriminating statements, and the implication is always that you know 0:22:18.040 --> 0:22:20.160 you're not going to suffer a bad punishment for this. 0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:24.960 Some of the things that this man was saying we're 0:22:25.040 --> 0:22:28.320 actually disturbing to hear. He would try to convince me 0:22:29.240 --> 0:22:32.520 that he liked to scare his wife. He said he'd 0:22:32.600 --> 0:22:35.600 drive up really fast behind parked cars and slam on 0:22:35.640 --> 0:22:37.920 the brakes just to scare her. And he asked me 0:22:37.960 --> 0:22:40.160 if I ever wanted to do that. He even talked 0:22:40.160 --> 0:22:42.920 about he gets so mad at his kids, he'd want 0:22:42.920 --> 0:22:44.479 to stick him in a garbage bag and throw him 0:22:44.480 --> 0:22:45.879 in a clown And he said, you ever want to 0:22:45.920 --> 0:22:48.680 do that? And I got angry at him for even 0:22:48.880 --> 0:22:52.240 suggesting something that heinous to be done to any child. 0:22:52.640 --> 0:22:55.000 I never said I wanted to do that, But then 0:22:55.119 --> 0:22:59.760 later on in his interrogation somehow he had me parroting him. 0:23:00.040 --> 0:23:03.760 They were not confessions. They were brought about by this 0:23:03.880 --> 0:23:07.720 man instilling guilt in me, making me feel that I 0:23:07.960 --> 0:23:13.040 was responsible above and beyond the mechanical problems on there. 0:23:14.880 --> 0:23:19.040 Palmitteer keeps on trying scenarios where Larry will implicate himself 0:23:19.040 --> 0:23:22.960 and he doesn't and Finally, he tries out a scenario 0:23:23.280 --> 0:23:26.679 that makes Larry bite. He basically says to Larry, do 0:23:26.720 --> 0:23:30.840 you know about the unconscious? And Larry does not. He 0:23:31.080 --> 0:23:34.240 tells them that unconscious means that we do certain things 0:23:34.760 --> 0:23:37.280 that we don't really know that we've done them. You know, 0:23:37.359 --> 0:23:39.560 even though you did it, you're not really responsible because 0:23:39.560 --> 0:23:43.880 you're unconscious that did it, And that starts giving Larry 0:23:44.280 --> 0:23:46.959 an explanation. And so at some point he makes an 0:23:47.000 --> 0:23:50.520 equivocal statement such as you think that could have happened, 0:23:50.680 --> 0:23:54.439 or he starts questioning Palmitteer, and he never says that 0:23:54.480 --> 0:23:57.239 he did it, but he starts questioning and implying that 0:23:57.440 --> 0:24:01.160 maybe that did happen, And then the interrogation is over 0:24:01.560 --> 0:24:05.119 because what he's done is accepted Palmitteer's theory that he 0:24:05.160 --> 0:24:07.919 did drive the car into the river and that he 0:24:08.040 --> 0:24:10.479 did want hurt someone. He just didn't know it at 0:24:10.480 --> 0:24:13.639 the time. But you know, under the law, that doesn't 0:24:13.680 --> 0:24:14.560 make any difference. 0:24:16.320 --> 0:24:20.320 The police chief himself went on the news and proclaimed 0:24:20.359 --> 0:24:23.680