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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling.

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Speaker 2: True crimes, and I weigh in using modern forensic techniques

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Speaker 2: to bring new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 3: Hi, Kate, how are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm well, Paul, how about you.

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Speaker 2: I'm hanging in there. I've been reviewing my notes about

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Speaker 2: this case out there in Baltimore, and I'm interested to

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Speaker 2: see where you go from here with the details.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there are a lot of details. Just to try

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Speaker 1: to summarize this case. This is November seventh, nineteen sixty nine.

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Speaker 1: There is a Catholic nun who is a teacher at

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Speaker 1: a high school. Her name is Kathy Sesnik. She goes

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Speaker 1: missing and then ultimately she is found dead with a

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Speaker 1: huge gaping wound to her skull. There is another woman

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Speaker 1: who goes missing around the same time. Her name is

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Speaker 1: Joyce Malecki. We don't know if there's a connection between

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Speaker 1: the two of them. We will eventually find out that

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Speaker 1: there has been a horrible abuse, sexual abuse of students

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Speaker 1: at this high school, Kiyo High School in Baltimore for years.

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Speaker 1: We have students coming forward twenty five years later to

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Speaker 1: say that this is what happened. And the key student

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Speaker 1: here is a woman named Jean who in the show

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Speaker 1: The Keepers comes forward and says that there was a

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Speaker 1: priest who was abusing girls at the school, who, as

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Speaker 1: a way to shut her up about his abuse against her,

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Speaker 1: takes her to Sister Kathy's body and says, this is

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Speaker 1: what will happen to you. So I think we have

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Speaker 1: many tasks here. One does not need to be to

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Speaker 1: prove the rampant sexual abuse that's happening at this high school,

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Speaker 1: which The Keepers does very well. I am convinced, you

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Speaker 1: are convinced, we are all convinced. What I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out, what we need to know is making that

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Speaker 1: connection between what will end up being a little bit

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Speaker 1: of a list of suspects on who murdered Kathy Seysnick,

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Speaker 1: you know, versus how much did she know about the

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Speaker 1: sexual abuse that was happening. And that's what we're really

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Speaker 1: going to be digging into in this second episode, is

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Speaker 1: you know what she knew? What witnesses say she knew

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Speaker 1: and didn't know that sort of thing. So is that

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Speaker 1: what your memory is of this story?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's what I'm recalling.

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Speaker 2: And I guess I kind of want to start by

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Speaker 2: just clarifying Gina saying this Joseph Maskell told her when

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Speaker 2: he went out and had her see Kathy's body. Does

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Speaker 2: he make any statements that he is the one that

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Speaker 2: killed Kathy to Jean at that time?

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Speaker 1: So this is what Gene says in the Keepers. She

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Speaker 1: says that one day after sister Kathy disappeared, but before

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Speaker 1: the body is discovered, so there's a two month gap there,

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Speaker 1: that father Maskell drove her to sister Kathy's body at

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Speaker 1: the dump, so this would have been sometime in November

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Speaker 1: or December. She says that he told her the same

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Speaker 1: thing would happen to her if she told anyone about

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Speaker 1: the abuse. She says that she remembers there being maggots

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Speaker 1: on sister Kathy's body. So this linds up being used

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Speaker 1: to discredit her at some point because people had said

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Speaker 1: it was too cold outside for maggots, but doctor Spitz

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Speaker 1: confirmed there was maggot activity on her body. But again,

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Speaker 1: you know, what the police eventually say is that she

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Speaker 1: knows too much information about the body where the body

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Speaker 1: was located to have not actually been there. It is

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Speaker 1: my understanding that he is not saying I did it.

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Speaker 1: He is saying here it is you need to keep

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Speaker 1: your mouth shut. There's no confession as far as I know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know what I'm drawing from this is

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Speaker 2: Maskal minimally has knowledge of where Kathy's body has been placed. Now,

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Speaker 2: there's maybe two competing scenarios. Is either he's the one

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Speaker 2: who by himself killed Kathy put her body there, and

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Speaker 2: he is utilizing this so Gene is basically made to

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Speaker 2: fear for her life if she ever divulges the on

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Speaker 2: going sexual abuse that she's experiencing from Mascal. The other

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Speaker 2: competing theory is you have a close knit group of

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Speaker 2: offenders that either one or multiple members of this group

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Speaker 2: were involved in Kathy's abduction and homicide and they've shared

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Speaker 2: information amongst themselves, and so now it's a matter of

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Speaker 2: teasing out which theory is correct. And that's where if

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Speaker 2: it's multiple people, if you have a conspiracy, investigators at

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Speaker 2: least have a greater likelihood of getting one of the

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Speaker 2: members of that conspiracy group to provide information. You can

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Speaker 2: put that person in jeopardy in a variety of ways,

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Speaker 2: whether it's that person's freedom that they're going to be

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Speaker 2: charged unless they are able to conclusively say who is

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Speaker 2: responsible for Kathy's homicide and get them to turn on

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Speaker 2: the other group. If it's just Maskal, who by himself

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Speaker 2: abducted and killed Kathy, then that's a little bit tougher,

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Speaker 2: especially a quarter century later. But there is potential forensic evidence,

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Speaker 2: you know, that they could potentially use to prove Mascal's

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Speaker 2: involvement with Kathy's homicide.

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Speaker 1: Let me tell you what ended up leading to it.

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Speaker 1: Sounds like Mascal threatening Jeane by taking her to see

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Speaker 1: Kathy's body. Let's talk about the lead up to that.

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Speaker 1: Jeane says that in June, so the summer of nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty nine, this was Kathy's last year at Keio before

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Speaker 1: she took the sabbatical and worked at a public school.

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Speaker 1: Sister Kathy asks her Jean if any of the priests

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Speaker 1: are making her do things that she doesn't want to do,

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Speaker 1: so Kathy is suspicious. Jeane says to her in confidence

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Speaker 1: over the summer. Yes, Sister Kathy hugs her and tells

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Speaker 1: her to go home and have a one erful summer

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Speaker 1: and that she will fix it. And another student in

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Speaker 1: the keepers in the documentary specifically remembers telling Kathy that

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Speaker 1: Father Maskal would get physical in his office. This student

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Speaker 1: says that she suspects that Kathy already knew about this

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Speaker 1: because then a third student says she was with sister

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Speaker 1: Kathy when Father Maskeal called her the student to his office,

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Speaker 1: and Kathy turned to Mascal and said she's not coming,

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Speaker 1: She's not available. And she says that they made eye contact,

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Speaker 1: Kathy and this student, and it was clear that she

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Speaker 1: knew what was going on. But when Jeane gets back

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Speaker 1: to school in the fall, you know, and Kathy had

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Speaker 1: said I'll take care of it, Kathy was gone and

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Speaker 1: Father Maskal was still there, so Kathy was at another school.

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Speaker 1: She had not been murdered at that point, he says.

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Speaker 1: Father Maskal says to Jane early in that year, someone

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Speaker 1: accused him of hurting the students, and so this is

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Speaker 1: the build up to after the murder, but before her

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Speaker 1: body is discovered. Within that two month period, Father Maskel

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Speaker 1: is using the body as Kathy's body as a way

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Speaker 1: to threaten Gene to keep her mouth shut because obviously

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Speaker 1: people are coming forward and Kathy knew too much.

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Speaker 2: Sure, you know, but the circumstances of how Kathy's body

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Speaker 2: was found, in terms of the state of her clothing,

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Speaker 2: her shirt is open. This in many ways doesn't equate

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Speaker 2: to what I would consider a sheer elimination homicide, the

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Speaker 2: elimination of a witness. There is a sexual component to

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Speaker 2: what happened to Kathy, no question about it. If let's

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Speaker 2: say Maskal is responsible for Kathy's homicide and he is

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Speaker 2: abusing Gene and probably other female students, he is a

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Speaker 2: predator that is working within this church environment or this

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Speaker 2: religious school environment. Now the question, of course is is

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Speaker 2: who else is aware of these activities. I can't imagine

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Speaker 2: that Kathy is the only nun that is aware, and

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Speaker 2: by focusing all efforts to eliminate Kathy as a witness,

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Speaker 2: that that's going to solve the problem of Oh, people

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Speaker 2: are talking and we're going to be found out, you know.

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Speaker 2: So this is where I'm not sure what the motive is,

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Speaker 2: you know, with Kathy being killed from that perspective, but

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Speaker 2: there is a sexual component to Kathy's homicide and it

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Speaker 2: is being done by an individual that doesn't have any

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Speaker 2: qualms about committing the sexually motivated homicide.

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Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you some more. So, Jean later

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Speaker 1: remembers another detail. Now remember this is coming out pauled

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Speaker 1: decades after all of this happened. She says one of

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Speaker 1: her abusers was just referred to as brother Bob. She

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Speaker 1: believes that he alluded to knowing about her murders, sister

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Speaker 1: Kathy's murder, and about being present for it. But that's

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Speaker 1: all she remembers. She doesn't have a lot of details

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Speaker 1: about the body, and what they're claiming are recovered memories again,

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Speaker 1: are things that happened a long time ago, but that

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Speaker 1: she seems to remember specifically. And like I said that

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Speaker 1: the newspaper reports were that there was a lot of

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Speaker 1: information that she knew about the scene that there's no

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Speaker 1: way she should have known. Let me tell you a

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Speaker 1: weird story. So, according to the doc series, an anonymous

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Speaker 1: student in her boyfriend had gone to Sister Kathy's home

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Speaker 1: the afternoon of the day she disappeared, so not that

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Speaker 1: night before she went out shopping, she was alive. The

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Speaker 1: student and the boyfriend say that Father Maskell and Father

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Speaker 1: Magnus burst into the apartment without knocking, and that sister

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Speaker 1: Kathy sent the student and her boyfriend away. So that

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Speaker 1: was a story that came up in the keepers. But

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Speaker 1: the research note says, you know, we don't know where

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Speaker 1: Sister Russell was. Jerry Kob says that he doubts that

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Speaker 1: this happened because Sister Russell never said anything to anyone

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Speaker 1: about that, but the student is insistent that this is

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Speaker 1: what happened. The student also says that Sister Russell was there,

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Speaker 1: so I don't know why they would be making it up.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure I could figure many reasons out why they

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Speaker 1: were making it up. But essentially, Sister Russell never said

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Speaker 1: this happen, but the student was very clear that this

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Speaker 1: is what happened. These two men accused of sexual abuse

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Speaker 1: at Sister Kathy's school. First in and Sister Cathy said, okay,

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Speaker 1: you two, you student and boyfriend.

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Speaker 3: Need to leave.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and this the student. This is also a statement

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Speaker 2: that's being made twenty five years later, longer, even longer. Yes, okay,

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Speaker 2: you know, and we know memory is elastic. It's kind

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Speaker 2: of tough, you know for this type of witness statement

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Speaker 2: from my perspective, to put a lot of weight on that.

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Speaker 2: And I think, you know, there's aspects to this investigation.

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Speaker 2: You know, was Magnus interviewed back in the day, do

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Speaker 2: you know?

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Speaker 1: Not that I know of. I think it was completely squashed.

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Speaker 1: This sexual abuse stuff never came out, even though there

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Speaker 1: was one person the Archdiocese of Baltimore said that Gene

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Speaker 1: was the first one to come forward about maskal in

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two, but there was a guy who said

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Speaker 1: he did come forward in sixty seven, right before Maskell

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Speaker 1: was transferred to Keo, to the high school. So people

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Speaker 1: had set stuff, but nothing had come out about the

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Speaker 1: sexual abuse to the police or to any kind of

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Speaker 1: authority figure. There was no reason to interview these guys.

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Speaker 1: There there were no suspects, with the exception of father Jerry,

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Speaker 1: and that was just because they had a personal relationship.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and this is where you know, I

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Speaker 2: think Sister Russell is critical because before the archdiocese is

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Speaker 2: kind of squashing the investigation. Sister Russell is reporting Kathy missing,

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Speaker 2: she is being contacted by law enforcement at one thirty

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Speaker 2: am in the morning. So if Magnus and this other

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Speaker 2: guy what was his name, Maskeal Maskeal and this other

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Speaker 2: guy burst into their apartment complex the day that Kathy

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Speaker 2: went missing, how comes Sister Russell isn't telling that to

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Speaker 2: law enforcement at one thirty am. There's something not adding

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Speaker 2: up here. Sister Russell to me, is critical in terms of,

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Speaker 2: you know, what is going on. There's there's some goofiness

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Speaker 2: in terms of the timeline with her calling up Jerry

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Speaker 2: and Pete and them driving over the relationship between Jerry

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Speaker 2: and Kathy. It seems like if there had been these men,

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Speaker 2: even though they are you know, men of the cloth,

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Speaker 2: but bursting into the apartment earlier that day, that there

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Speaker 2: would be a statement to that effect by Sister Russell, right.

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Speaker 1: I think that's why it's confusing for Jerry's part. Father Jerry,

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Speaker 1: he says that Kathy wanted to talk to him about

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Speaker 1: something serious. They had planned to get together the day

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Speaker 1: after she disappeared, but he insists that she never told

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Speaker 1: him about the abuse. So he says, I didn't know.

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine that, but who knows. He says, I

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Speaker 1: didn't know, and she didn't talk to me about it,

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Speaker 1: but she sounded like she wanted to talk about something

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Speaker 1: very serious, you know, on November eighth.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: I think one of the things I want to point out,

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Speaker 2: as I've thought about this case is Kathy's car is

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Speaker 2: a critical piece of evidence, not just because of what

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Speaker 2: it could potentially have from a physical evidence standpoint, but

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Speaker 2: also how it was left. And Kathy scenes sitting in

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Speaker 2: her car in the proper parking space for apartment complex

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Speaker 2: by a neighbor. I have great confidence that that neighbor

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Speaker 2: is telling accurate information. And then the car is obviously

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Speaker 2: gone to a secondary location where it gets the mud

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Speaker 2: the vegetation on it. Inside of it, there's items from

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Speaker 2: Kathy that are missing out of this car. And then

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Speaker 2: the car is deposited back across the street from Kathy's

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Speaker 2: apartment in a half hazard manner.

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Speaker 3: It was done in haste. Why is that car brought back?

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Speaker 2: It's because the offender's vehicle was at Kathy's location somewhere

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Speaker 2: in that area. So the offender took Kathy killed Kathy

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Speaker 2: and had to get back using Kathy's vehicle in order

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Speaker 2: to get into their vehicle and drive off. So, you know,

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Speaker 2: the scenario that I'm seeing is the offender is seeing

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Speaker 2: Kathy either sitting alone in the vehicle or contacts Kathy

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Speaker 2: when she's trying to get into her apartment, and then

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Speaker 2: ultimately takes control of Kathy and her own vehicle, drives off,

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Speaker 2: kills Kathy, dumps Kathy at the dump site that looks

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Speaker 2: like it's what half hour away from where she was

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Speaker 2: abducted from, and then drives back to get his own

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Speaker 2: vehicle and drive off. This isn't Jerry and Pete. This

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Speaker 2: is somebody else. Now is his father Maskell?

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Speaker 3: You know?

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Speaker 2: Is he going to Kathy's apartment, sees her isolated and

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Speaker 2: takes advantage of that He at least per gene is

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Speaker 2: expressing knowledge where Kathy's body is. I have to assume

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Speaker 2: that authorities sufficiently vetted the gene's statement so that they

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Speaker 2: have confidence that this recovered memory. And I'm not even

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Speaker 2: sure it classifies as a recovered memory. She just didn't

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Speaker 2: come forward. She was a kid when this happened to her, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know, so I'm just going to trust that the

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Speaker 2: authorities vetted her statement and say, yes, she is accurate

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Speaker 2: to the details, that we believe that Gene is telling

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Speaker 2: the truth about what happened. Well, now this becomes important.

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Speaker 2: I think it's a very small circle of suspects that

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Speaker 2: are responsible for Kathy's homicide and they just need to

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Speaker 2: be vetted one by one and figure out, well, who

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Speaker 2: is it and if they still have Kathy's clothing, you know,

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Speaker 2: whatever is covered from her body, if they still have

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Speaker 2: stuff out of the vehicle, Leyton Prince, whatever they did,

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Speaker 2: you know, there's potentially physical evidence that can help sort

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Speaker 2: this out.

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Speaker 1: Let me wrap up this part of the story. None

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Speaker 1: of this information about abuse that Keyo comes to light

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Speaker 1: until about nineteen ninety four, and that's when Jane hires

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Speaker 1: an attorney because she was being stonewalled by the church.

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Speaker 1: This lawyer puts an advertisement in the Baltimore Sun asking

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Speaker 1: for any information about are their survivors of abuse that

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Speaker 1: went to Archbishop Keo school. That ad doesn't say anything

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Speaker 1: about Father Maskeal in particular, but about forty women come

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Speaker 1: forward and nearly all their stories are about him. This

286
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Speaker 1: information is given to the state's attorney, but Mascal is

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Speaker 1: never charged, never charged. Okay, so let me just tell

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Speaker 1: you one other thing and then we need to get

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Speaker 1: to other suspects too. In ninety four, Jean and another

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Speaker 1: former student, who's a woman named Teresa Lancaster, sue father Maskal.

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Speaker 1: And this is a suit that's ultimately dismissedly because the

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Speaker 1: statue of limitations had lapsed. The case went to trial

293
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Speaker 1: in the first place because because it questioned if the

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Speaker 1: statute applies to memories that only recently surfaced at that time,

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Speaker 1: this is considered a question of recovered memories. Though you know,

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of new laws that have passed

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Speaker 1: allowing child victims to come forward and sue as adults.

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Speaker 1: This is interesting. The Baltimore Archdiocese has recently declared bankruptcy

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Speaker 1: to avoid paying more of these settlements. So the recovered

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Speaker 1: memory I had not really even I haven't crossed paths

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Speaker 1: with that yet, and controversy around it, and I know

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Speaker 1: we talked about it, and the questions about whether what

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Speaker 1: Gene and any of these other students were experiencing were

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Speaker 1: not It doesn't sound like recovered memories. It sounded like

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Speaker 1: we're you know, we're pressed or you know, not coming forward, scared, forgotten,

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Speaker 1: hidden for a while, something that hadn't been processed by

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Speaker 1: the person, but not drawn out by somebody. And that's

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Speaker 1: right to you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and I'm trying to remember the exact details.

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Speaker 2: California has been statute, you know, and I think California

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Speaker 2: uses the term repressed memories, but I'm not entirely sure

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Speaker 2: about that. But there's something to the effect that if

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Speaker 2: a person comes forward with a repress memory and at

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Speaker 2: the time of let's say their sexual abuse, they were

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Speaker 2: fifteen years or younger, they have like thirty years after

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Speaker 2: the crime occurred to come forward and then the case

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Speaker 2: could potentially be charged. I may be way off base

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Speaker 2: on that, but that's kind of what's ringing a bell.

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Speaker 2: I had one case, and it had nothing to do

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Speaker 2: with sexual abuse. It was a woman who came forward

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Speaker 2: with a repressed memory saying she remembered her dad burying

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Speaker 2: a body in the backyard, you know, and of course

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Speaker 2: ended up never finding anything.

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Speaker 3: But I do know that these types of.

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Speaker 2: Memories you do have, from a psychological standpoint, there is

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Speaker 2: the possibility of somebody just bearing this memory and then

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Speaker 2: having it come forward at some point. But you have

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Speaker 2: to kind of, you know, tease out the people that

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Speaker 2: are being honest and truthful, people that are misremembering things,

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Speaker 2: and then people who are just making stuff up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, just like in a normal witness repress

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Speaker 1: memory or not, you're just having to figure out who's

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Speaker 1: truthful and who's not, what their motives.

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Speaker 3: Are, right, absolutely, yep, for sure.

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Speaker 1: Well I wish this had a better ending that you know,

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Speaker 1: father Maskell got punished in some way. He doesn't. He

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Speaker 1: dies of a stroke in two thousand and one, which

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Speaker 1: is too bad. At that point in time, the archdiocese

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Speaker 1: says that the allegations against Maskal were credible, quote unquote,

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Speaker 1: and confirmed that he did have guns in his residence.

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Speaker 1: I don't think we're surprised by that. Sister Russell died

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Speaker 1: not long after. She was not a nun any longer.

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Speaker 1: She had been married and had a family, and she

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Speaker 1: died just a couple of months after. And a friend

345
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Speaker 1: called her when he died, when mass died before she died,

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Speaker 1: and Sister Russell said, well, he took his secret to

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Speaker 1: the grave. Now there's been renewed interests starting in two

348
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Speaker 1: thousand and five, and there's a reporter named Tom Nugent,

349
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Speaker 1: who writes a story for the Baltimore City Paper that

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Speaker 1: rehashes everything that has happened, and for the first time,

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Speaker 1: he starts looking at the connections between father Maskell and

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Speaker 1: the other victim, Joyce Malecki, who we weren't sure is

353
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Speaker 1: connected or not. So she's the other young woman who

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Speaker 1: was killed right after sister Kathy disappeared. So tell me

355
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Speaker 1: what you think about these connections. I'll go through half

356
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Speaker 1: of them and stop, and then you can tell me

357
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Speaker 1: if you think these are strong connections. Okay, So this

358
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Speaker 1: is what Tom Nugent comes up with. He looks at

359
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:46,399
Speaker 1: the nineteen sixty eight sixty nine Kio year book. So

360
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Speaker 1: this is the high school where Maskal was and it

361
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Speaker 1: shows that a gift was made that year by the

362
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Speaker 1: Malechi family on their patron's page. And the interviews with

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Speaker 1: the remaining family members revealed that when they lived in Lansdowne,

364
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Speaker 1: which is less than a mile from where Cathy Saysnick's

365
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 1: body was, they attended a church, Saint Clement Church. The

366
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Speaker 1: Maluche siblings, including Joyce, went to week long retreats as

367
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Speaker 1: high school students, during which they spend entire days engaged

368
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Speaker 1: in religious instruction with priests, So that might not seem

369
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Speaker 1: like a big deal, except the Baltimore archdis and records

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Speaker 1: confirm that Maskel served at Saint Clement in Lansdowne from

371
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Speaker 1: sixty six to sixty eight, And this is essentially saying

372
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Speaker 1: that they would have likely crossed paths. Joyce Maluche the

373
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Speaker 1: dead Girl and Joseph Maskell. So what do you think

374
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Speaker 1: so far? So they would have crossed paths. And I

375
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Speaker 1: don't know. The family apparently gave money. I don't think

376
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Speaker 1: the current family or the family that's around now knows why.

377
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 1: But they gave money to the high school where Mascal worked,

378
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Speaker 1: and it sounds like she attended week long retreats where

379
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,040
Speaker 1: Mascal would have been for sure.

380
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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I don't know. I'm not putting much

381
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 2: weight on this, this gift of money to the high school.

382
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 2: If they could confirm that Mascal and Joyce were at

383
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,720
Speaker 2: the same location at the same time, you know, that's

384
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Speaker 2: where now Mascal at least could see a victim as

385
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 2: you know, maybe established a relationship you know, with this victim,

386
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Speaker 2: just as this authority figure within this this location. But

387
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Speaker 2: it's I mean, it's weak, you know, it's it could

388
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Speaker 2: just be coincidental.

389
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Speaker 1: Yeah, so let me tell you a couple more things.

390
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Speaker 1: It looks like the records show that father Maskal was

391
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 1: Joyce Malech's parish priest during a two year period shortly

392
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Speaker 1: before she was killed. I don't know if that means

393
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Speaker 1: that they were just because he was, you know, her priest,

394
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Speaker 1: doesn't mean that they had really personal interactions. I don't

395
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Speaker 1: know if she took confession. I don't know any of that.

396
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,439
Speaker 1: We just know that they would have been certainly in

397
00:23:55,480 --> 00:24:00,040
Speaker 1: the same vicinity. And Father Maskal sent her family a

398
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,640
Speaker 1: condolence card after she was found murdered. Oh interesting, Yeah,

399
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,920
Speaker 1: I mean, so he knew her for sure. If we're

400
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 1: going to talk about Joyce Malucky briefly, she was twenty

401
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:15,160
Speaker 1: and again she goes missing four days after Kathy Sesnant

402
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 1: goes missing. Her brother was at a fast food restaurant

403
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,479
Speaker 1: outside of Baltimore, and she stopped by. Joyce stopped by

404
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 1: to switch cars before heading to the mall, and she

405
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,399
Speaker 1: never came home. She was found at a nearby military

406
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 1: base with signs of severe trauma, and an autopsy determined

407
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 1: that she had been strangled. Okay, One police officer said

408
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,160
Speaker 1: that there was evidence she had put up a fight.

409
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 1: It doesn't say anything about sexual assault. The night of

410
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,399
Speaker 1: her disappearance, she had plans to meet up with her

411
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 1: boyfriend who was stationed at that military base, but he

412
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 1: was ruled out as a suspect pretty early on in

413
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Speaker 1: an investigation. I'm assuming he had some kind of great

414
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 1: alibi or something. So this was an article written last year,

415
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 1: about nine months ago, and it looks like Paul the

416
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 1: FBI exhumed Joyce Maluche's body to try to figure out

417
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 1: who her killer was. There were a couple of other

418
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,640
Speaker 1: people who went missing around that time period, and they

419
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 1: solved one case using DNA in genealogy.

420
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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think you know.

421
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:27,159
Speaker 2: What I wanted to hear was sort of the crossover

422
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 2: in details between Kathy and Joyce's case. Basically, you have

423
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 2: abduction homicides of two young females. So, you know, I think,

424
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,639
Speaker 2: you know, first it's the victimology you have, you know,

425
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 2: two young women that are victims of abduction homicide. Even

426
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 2: though we don't know the circumstances of what exactly happened

427
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 2: with Joyce outside of strangulation, she was beat and she

428
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 2: put up a fight. But I mean a twenty year

429
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 2: old female being abducted and killed in all likelihood it's

430
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 2: a sexually motivated crime.

431
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 3: I think there's at least.

432
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 2: Enough parallel from the circumstances you know that it could

433
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 2: be the same offender. Now, if we throw gene statement

434
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:15,239
Speaker 2: out about Maskull showing this is where Kathy's body is,

435
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 2: you know, it is entirely possible that you have a

436
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 2: single predator that abducted and killed Kathy and abducted and

437
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:28,160
Speaker 2: killed Joyce and maybe did other things. That's where Gene's

438
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 2: statement is so critical because what it does is it

439
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,439
Speaker 2: narrows down instead of it being a random or stranger

440
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,119
Speaker 2: type crime, it's a crime that Kathy's crime is a

441
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 2: crime that is being committed, you know, by an individual

442
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 2: or a group of individuals that had an association with her.

443
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,719
Speaker 2: And if it's maskl who it's shown that he has

444
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 2: an association with Joyce, you know, this becomes critical because

445
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 2: there's no question he is a child predator working. You know,

446
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 2: he has access to all these young girls at the school.

447
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 2: Predators go to where the praise at and so envisioning

448
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 2: Mascal taking a crime further past sexual abuse and actually

449
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 2: committing homicide that is well within the realm of this

450
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 2: type of offender. You know, So I right now don't

451
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 2: have I don't have an issue assuming Gene is completely

452
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 2: accurate about her statement that Mascal Is by himself is

453
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,400
Speaker 2: responsible for these two homicides, but they need to get

454
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 2: the evidence.

455
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 3: To prove it.

456
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 1: I've found a few more details. I doubt they make

457
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 1: any kind of a difference about Joyce Malecki. So you know,

458
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: she had been found with her hands tied behind her back,

459
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 1: with scratches and bruises on her body. That's the part

460
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 1: of the struggle I told you about. And they said

461
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,439
Speaker 1: that there was a single knife wound found in her throat,

462
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 1: but it was not sufficient to cause death. But she

463
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 1: had fifteen superficial cuts on the neck and abrasions on

464
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 1: her fore head, nose, and chin. And the FBI took

465
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,879
Speaker 1: over the case because they were found obviously on federal

466
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 1: property because it was the base Fort Meade. I don't know.

467
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: I mean, essentially, what they were saying was they had

468
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: similar builds, these two women. Here's the only connection, real

469
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 1: connection until you look at mascl They had similar builds.

470
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: They were shopping in close proximity, but they were abducted

471
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 1: days apart and that was it. So it sounds like

472
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 1: people are still working on the case though.

473
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, hopefully, you know, because there is a chance with

474
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,639
Speaker 2: both cases that there is you know, physical evidence that

475
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 2: can solve these cases. You know the fact that the

476
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 2: FBI went through the process to exume Joyce's body that

477
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 2: tells me that they felt that the initial collection of

478
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,479
Speaker 2: evidence from Joyce's body was inadequate, which you know from

479
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty nine, nineteen seventy. Of course, they're not focusing

480
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 2: in on the possibility of DNA evidence. You know, they

481
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 2: would process women's bodies for sexual assault evidence, but all

482
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 2: they could do is you know, identify, Okay, there's there's

483
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 2: seman presence, so yes, this is a sexually motivated crime.

484
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 2: And that they literally would throw that kind of evidence

485
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 2: out back then you know that possibly is what happened.

486
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 2: And now the FBI is going, oh god, we need

487
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 2: to hope that there's still that foreign DNA material on

488
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 2: this body that has been buried for decades, and it

489
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 2: is entirely possible they could get something. But then it's also, well,

490
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 2: what about our clothing, just like Kathy's clothing, you know,

491
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 2: is there a possibility that there's a thunder DNA off

492
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 2: of those items, and so, you know, it's interesting. I've

493
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 2: just experienced enough that I think there is a possibility

494
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 2: that Kathy and Joyce's killer is one and the same person.

495
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 2: But I would also say it's entirely possible that these

496
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 2: are two completely unrelated crimes and you just have two

497
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 2: different predators operating in the same area at the same time,

498
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 2: doing kind of the same thing. I've seen it, I've

499
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 2: personally experienced that. So it's until they get that objective

500
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 2: identifying evidence on these cases, it's going to be hard

501
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 2: to se a Father Maskal is their killer. They need

502
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 2: to do more than just show you the connections that

503
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 2: each one of the victims had to Father Maskal. Gene statement,

504
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 2: I think is really sort of the big thing in

505
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 2: the case, at least with Kathy's case, because again, if

506
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 2: that is been proven that she had details that only

507
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 2: somebody who observed Kathy's body out there at the dump,

508
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 2: then I'm like, yeah, either Father Maskal or somebody closely

509
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 2: affiliated with Father Maskal is responsible for Kathy's homicide.

510
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 1: Well, for due diligence, let's go through two other suspects.

511
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: That are not related to Father Maskal or the high

512
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 1: school in particular, just because these are people that have

513
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 1: floated around. This guy is named Ed Davidson. He's alive,

514
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,719
Speaker 1: at least when the keepers was made he was. He

515
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: gives an interview. He's very frail. He says I have

516
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 1: nothing to do with the murder. But his name gets

517
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: brought up, and here's why. In twenty thirteen, former students

518
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: of Sister Kathy's named Abby's Stow and Jimma Hoskins create

519
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 1: a Facebook page to share their resources. It becomes a

520
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 1: centralized resource on the case, but also for survivors from

521
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 1: the abuse, and the documentary centers on these two women

522
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 1: and their dogged research into the case. They're great characters.

523
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 1: After this Facebook group is taken off, Jimma gets a

524
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: text from a woman named Debbie Yawns who says that

525
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 1: her uncle killed Sister Kathy. It is this guy, Ed Davidson,

526
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: and his first wife tells the same story firsthand. The

527
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: woman who doesn't want to be named in the documentary.

528
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 1: The wife had recently given birth to twins in November

529
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 1: of nineteen sixty nine. This is when you know Sister

530
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: Kathy goes missing. One of the twins was in the

531
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: nick you and just before nine point thirty on November seventh,

532
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: that night that she disappeared, a nurse called and said

533
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: the baby is going to be discharged tomorrow. This is

534
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 1: why the wife remembers that day in the time. Just

535
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 1: after hanging up the phone, Ed walks in the door

536
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: and his shirt is covered in blood. He tells his

537
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 1: wife that he got into a fight with his boss.

538
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 1: But then a few days later, when sister Kathy's disappearance

539
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 1: is reported on the news, Ed's wife looks at him

540
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: and sees that he's smirking. He says her body is

541
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: going to be covered with snow soon and will take

542
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 1: months to find. Shortly after that, he buys all new

543
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 1: tires first car, even though he doesn't really need them

544
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: and the family doesn't have any money. A few weeks later,

545
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 1: Ed is arrested in a stolen car which Paul. He

546
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 1: has been trying to lure girls into Adam Middle School,

547
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 1: very close to sister Kathy's apartment, and that Christmas, Ed

548
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 1: gives his wife a necklace. It has a wedding bell

549
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 1: pendant with a greenstone that looks like paradot, which would

550
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 1: have been an August birthstone. I think the idea is

551
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 1: that this might have been the gift that Kathy bought

552
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: her sister. So perhaps Kathy bought her sister a necklace

553
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 1: with the burthstone of her sister's fiance in it. What

554
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 1: do you think so far? Covered in blood?

555
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 2: I mean, good lord, this is a dime a dozen

556
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 2: type of suspect that we see in these who don't

557
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 2: homicides all the time. I can't say if this Davidson

558
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 2: is responsible or not, but so far, this type of

559
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 2: circumstantial evidence is weak. You know, it's it's there's something there,

560
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 2: but it all could just be coincidence, you know, and

561
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:40,959
Speaker 2: covered in blood. Yeah, we will get these types of suspects,

562
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 2: and there are things like this that happens, you know.

563
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 2: You know, I don't know if Davidson's boss would still

564
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 2: be alive, you know, to be able to verify. Oh yeah,

565
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 2: we got into a fight and I was bleeding like crazy.

566
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 2: Seems like, you know, law enforcement may have been called

567
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 2: to something like that.

568
00:33:58,720 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 3: So I don't know.

569
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 2: You know, right now, I'm not blown away with the

570
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 2: evidence that you've presented right now on Davidson.

571
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 1: You know, the filmmakers interview him, and he said, listen,

572
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 1: like I was kind of pulling my wife's leg on this.

573
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 1: I did not kill this woman. I actually you know,

574
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,359
Speaker 1: I hurt my hand. That's why there was blood all

575
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 1: over my shirt. Yeah, I kind of led her to

576
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 1: believe I did something, but I didn't do anything, and

577
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,800
Speaker 1: that was that I made it up, you know, in general,

578
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 1: so it doesn't really go anywhere. There is another person though,

579
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 1: who's interesting unless you want to do you have a

580
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 1: comment on that.

581
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 2: I was just going to, you know, because this is

582
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 2: what happened. Sometimes, you know, we get the street chatter

583
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 2: where you do have guys, believe it or not. Guys

584
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 2: will pretend that they were, you know, involved in some

585
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 2: homicide because it gives them street credibility or some level

586
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 2: of credibility with whoever they're wanting to impress by being

587
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 2: capable of committing these horrific crimes. Just that's part of

588
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 2: the reason why law enforcement has holdbacks, right, details that

589
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 2: don't get made public because you get these nut jobs

590
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 2: that are willing to whether they come into law enforcement

591
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 2: confess or they just start. They're at a bar and

592
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 2: they're trying to impress their their bar buddies. That hey,

593
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 2: I killed her, you know, and believe it or not,

594
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 2: they feel that they're impressing somebody by, you know, making

595
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 2: that type of statement. They have nothing to do with

596
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 2: the crime.

597
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 1: Well, I have another suspect. This actually seems a little

598
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,799
Speaker 1: more credible to me. So there is a woman named

599
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:39,439
Speaker 1: Barbara Schmidt. So Barbara Schmidt is telling this story about

600
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 1: her husband. He has a drinking problem that comes out

601
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,320
Speaker 1: of nowhere in the seventies, and one day her husband

602
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 1: says to her it's because he and his brother Billy,

603
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: killed a woman behind the shop, meaning behind the family's business.

604
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 1: So we're talking about this guy, Billy Schmidt, and it

605
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 1: sounds like this woman is saying that her husband helped

606
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 1: his brother dispose sister Kathy's body. But she also says

607
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 1: that one night, she's not saying specifically November seventh, he

608
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: came home covered in blood and said he had been

609
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 1: in a bar fight. But he doesn't look like he's

610
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: gotten hurt at all, like at somebody else's blood. Now

611
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,240
Speaker 1: here's the weird stuff. Billy, the guy that we're talking about,

612
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 1: was sister Kathy's neighbor. He lived right across the.

613
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,280
Speaker 3: Hall from her in the apartment complex.

614
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 1: In the apartment complex. And here's something else that was

615
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 1: really weird. The small dump where her body had been

616
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:34,360
Speaker 1: found is behind the Schmidt family business and very close

617
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 1: to Billy's house where he and his brother grew up.

618
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 2: Okay, so Billy has two anchor points. I'm kind of

619
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 2: throwing out a geographic profile term. An anchor point is,

620
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 2: you know, a location within a person's normal living pattern,

621
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 2: such as a residence, such as a place of work,

622
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 2: a hangout spot like the bar you know that they

623
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 2: go to. Billy has two anchor points instead, are significant

624
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 2: in the case the last location where Kathy was seen alive,

625
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 2: sitting in the parking lot of the apartment complex that

626
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 2: Billy and Kathy share.

627
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 3: As well as the.

628
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 2: Body dump location of Kathy's body, which is behind the

629
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 2: Schmidt shop. So this is where now Billy has the

630
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 2: local familiarity that you know, authorities are saying somebody must

631
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,839
Speaker 2: have had in order to have dumped Kathy's body there.

632
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 2: So that checks a couple of boxes for me. The

633
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 2: circumstances of the crime itself is Kathy never makes it

634
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 2: back into her apartment, so she's contacted either in her car,

635
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 2: getting out of her car or en route from her

636
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 2: car into the apartment and her car was taken to

637
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 2: a secondary location, which I'm going to assume is the

638
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 2: dump site that night, and that the vegetation and the

639
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 2: mud is probably from that dump site. I saw, you know,

640
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,760
Speaker 2: there was vegetation in terms of it looked like almost

641
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 2: you know, little swaths of force that surrounded the vacant lot,

642
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 2: if you will, where Kathy's body was, and it looked

643
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,720
Speaker 2: like her body was on the edge. And then Kathy's

644
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,879
Speaker 2: car is brought back after her body, after she's killed,

645
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 2: and her body's dumped back to the apartment complex. So

646
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,280
Speaker 2: Billy living in that apartment complex, that checks a box

647
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 2: there because he needs to get back home, and if

648
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 2: he's taken off in Kathy's car, he's got to use

649
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 2: Kathy's car to come back. So there's at least more

650
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 2: of a nexus with Billy from the circumstances then with

651
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 2: that Davidson. You know, that's where I'm evaluating these two

652
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 2: individuals going, Yes, Billy is a stronger suspect from that perspective,

653
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 2: but there needs to be more, of course, But he's

654
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,279
Speaker 2: he's more interesting to me than Davidson, you know, And

655
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 2: this is just well, how if let's say Billy's the

656
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 2: one responsible for Kathy's homicide, then how is Gene's statement

657
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 2: with father Maskell? You know, how does that fit in?

658
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 2: From my perspective? If I were to be starting to

659
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 2: dig into this case, you know, one of the earliest

660
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 2: things I would be doing would be truly assessing gene statement.

661
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 2: And if she's still alive, reinterviewing her, I need to

662
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:29,839
Speaker 2: be confident that what she is remembering is spot on

663
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 2: with what somebody would have observed of Kathy's body out

664
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 2: at that location.

665
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 1: Well, let me wrap up Billy real quick. So Barbara,

666
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 1: the woman who called this in, says that Billy's mental

667
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 1: health deteriorated after Kathy's murder. He talked about the case

668
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 1: all the time. He was obsessed with nuns. She says,

669
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: he kept a nun's habit in his attic and sometimes

670
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 1: talked about it like it was a real person, like

671
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:59,319
Speaker 1: it was haunting him. And he died by suicide a

672
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,280
Speaker 1: few years later after this happened.

673
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 3: So he's been dead for a long time.

674
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 1: He's been dead for a long time. There were cigarette

675
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 1: butts found near Kathy's body, and they were Salem's which

676
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 1: is Billy's brand. But you know, I'm sure you could

677
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,800
Speaker 1: throw a rock in Maryland and hits somebody who smoked Salem's.

678
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 1: But just to transition into DNA stuff, they did take

679
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 1: a DNA sample. Right before The Keepers aired on Netflix,

680
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:28,760
Speaker 1: they exhumed Joseph Maskell's body. They took a DNA sample

681
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,359
Speaker 1: to compare it against DNA that was recovered from those

682
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 1: cigarette butts found near sister Kathy's body. We have no idea,

683
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 1: I know, that's what you are grimacing. We have no

684
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 1: idea who's those are. And of course this DNA doesn't

685
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,360
Speaker 1: match the cigarette butts, and I'm sure they didn't decades later.

686
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 1: They didn't compare DNA to this guy, to Billy Schmidt.

687
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 1: But the DNA butts are kind of the thing that

688
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,399
Speaker 1: they have. It sounds like, yeah, this is where you.

689
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 2: Know, assessing the evidence that the DNA's coming off of

690
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 2: it is is it's not just an all or nothing.

691
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:07,799
Speaker 2: So most certainly, let's say Mascal's DNA is found on

692
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:12,319
Speaker 2: those cigarette butts, that is compelling because what is his

693
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 2: association with that location?

694
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 3: You know, So that's.

695
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 2: Significant, even though it might be very tough to say, yeah,

696
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 2: the killer is the one that's responsible for smoking those

697
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 2: cigarette butts. Now with Billy Schmidt, it's right behind his

698
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 2: family business. Yeah, if it is his DNA on those

699
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:36,839
Speaker 2: cigarette butts, the evidence against him is is weaker because

700
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 2: he has an association with that location, so that you

701
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 2: always have to interpret, you know, that the DNA evidence

702
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 2: or any physical evidence within the context of the case

703
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:48,880
Speaker 2: and within the context of the suspects and the victims,

704
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 2: et cetera. So you know, my hope would be is

705
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 2: that they like exhooming Joyce's body or going after maybe

706
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 2: Kathy's clothing, that they find foreign DNA from the victims

707
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 2: themselves or the victims personal items that are found at

708
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 2: the homicide location or the crime scene, and that becomes

709
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:17,719
Speaker 2: more compelling because now you're getting into that intimate contact

710
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 2: between the offender and the victim, and it's harder to

711
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 2: come up with with either of these suspects, you know,

712
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 2: innocent explanation for their DNA being on you know, the particularly.

713
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 3: If it's if it turns out it's let's say, semen.

714
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 1: Right, well, you know everything I read was from December

715
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: of last year, and it doesn't I don't see results back.

716
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 1: So they exhumed her body in December of twenty twenty three.

717
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 1: Is that a reasonable amount of time? Is that bad

718
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 1: news if we haven't heard anything, you know, in ten

719
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 1: months or however long.

720
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 3: No, not at all. You know, this is okay, you know,

721
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 3: with a case that's old.

722
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,839
Speaker 2: If let's say they're submitting that to this is the

723
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 2: FBI that exhumed the body from Joyce with Joyce, So

724
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 2: if they're submitting that to FBI lab, it's going to

725
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 2: take a while. I mean, this is a you know,

726
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 2: federal level lab with you know, agencies from across the

727
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 2: nation sending them evidence. Backlog is is extraordinary, So this

728
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 2: case isn't going to have priority relative to maybe other

729
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 2: cases that are more active. So no, that doesn't surprise

730
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 2: me at all. So hopefully, you know, fingers crossed is

731
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:34,280
Speaker 2: that they did have success and maybe Joyce's case will

732
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 2: have probative DNA evidence and with Kathy's case, I hope

733
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 2: that they're able to go after whatever physical evidence still remains,

734
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 2: you know there.

735
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 1: To wrap up this section. You know, they're hopeful. There

736
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 1: were in seventy and seventy one, two different sixteen year

737
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 1: old girls in Maryland disappeared after last seen at shopping centers.

738
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:58,799
Speaker 1: One of those was solved. I mentioned it earlier, so

739
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: you know they're trying for sure. While the allegations of

740
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 1: abuse at Keel by Magnus and Mascal were credible, some

741
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 1: people thought that the idea of sister Kathy being murdered

742
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 1: because of them is more of a stretch than the

743
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 1: idea that she was abducted and killed by a random person.

744
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 1: I don't believe that. I think it's much more. I

745
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:22,240
Speaker 1: think it's much more likely that these two men people

746
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 1: have killed for far less fears than being turned over

747
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:29,759
Speaker 1: for sexually abusing girls for years. I mean, I don't

748
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 1: understand why anybody wouldn't think that that's not a motive

749
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 1: to murder somebody to keep them quiet about that.

750
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:37,879
Speaker 3: It's not a stretch at all.

751
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:41,839
Speaker 2: You know, I made the observation earlier that Kathy's homicide,

752
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 2: you know, in the state of her clothing, you know,

753
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 2: it's not merely an elimination homicide. I mean, there is

754
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:52,720
Speaker 2: a sexual component to her homicide, absent genes recovered memory

755
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 2: or her memory of being taken out by Mascal to

756
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:01,360
Speaker 2: Kathy's body. If that statement didn't exist, then I would say,

757
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 2: you know, what all possibilities are on the table. There's

758
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 2: plenty of cases just like Kathy's across the nation. There's

759
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 2: a case out of Iowa. I believe Jody wesen Throutt

760
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:17,239
Speaker 2: news anchor that you know, she looks like she was

761
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:19,320
Speaker 2: contacted by an offender out in the parking lot and

762
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 2: has just disappeared. Those types of crimes do occur. You

763
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 2: could have an active predator that's responsible for Kathy and

764
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 2: Choices cases, or you have multiple predators, or because of

765
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 2: Gene's statement, I put you know, I'm putting Mascal in play,

766
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 2: and maybe associates of Mascal in play.

767
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:42,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. I mean bringing this right back to

768
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 1: the original victim, Kathy. You know, her mom died in

769
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 1: twenty ten not knowing what happened to her daughter, which

770
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,840
Speaker 1: I can't think of anything more upsetting. The family doesn't

771
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 1: talk much about the murderer, certainly in the media over

772
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,319
Speaker 1: the years, but her sister Marilyn said that when their

773
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 1: mom died, cleaning out the house and she found boxes

774
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 1: and boxes of newspaper articles about the case on every

775
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 1: single development, And I read that as sort of the

776
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 1: last thing for us to talk about, because that really

777
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: is what this comes down to. This was a woman

778
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:20,720
Speaker 1: who was very likely the closest confidante to many people,

779
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 1: many of these girls, who seemed like she wanted to

780
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 1: try to do something to help them, who was trying

781
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 1: to protect them, and she ends up dead. And not

782
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 1: only does she end up dead, but the real killer,

783
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 1: the person who murdered her, gets away with it. And

784
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 1: what a miscarriage of justice? Geez.

785
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 2: You know, it's it's the ultimate frustration as an investigator.

786
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,799
Speaker 2: You know, when I've worked cases and have failed to

787
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 2: close cases, which is many, many of these unsolved cases.

788
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:53,279
Speaker 2: And you know what, my biggest frustration is thinking that

789
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 2: the killer is out there and they're living their life,

790
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 2: and it's a life they don't deserve because they stole

791
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:04,840
Speaker 2: somebody else's life and all the life experiences that that person,

792
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 2: the victim would have had, or what their family members

793
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 2: would have had, et cetera. You know, so it is

794
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 2: that's a hard thing to live with. Families don't get

795
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 2: the answer, and justice isn't served and the killer gets

796
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 2: away with it, and it just, I know, it eats

797
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:22,360
Speaker 2: at me.

798
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 1: I teach a class at UT that's sort of an

799
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:28,879
Speaker 1: ethics in true crime podcasting class essentially what to look

800
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 1: for when you're listening or watching true crime, what's ethical,

801
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,880
Speaker 1: what's not. I will say I think The Keepers is

802
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 1: one of the best. And I know you don't like

803
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 1: watching true crime stuff. You don't have enough room in

804
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:44,319
Speaker 1: your pretty little head for the current case is in

805
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:46,800
Speaker 1: barely enough room for what I'm telling you, let alone

806
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:50,319
Speaker 1: watching some case you have no involvement with. But I

807
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:54,439
Speaker 1: think that there are certainly podcasts, definitely shows out there

808
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 1: that we should all support that are victim forward, that

809
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 1: are not glamorizing in any way the Killer, and I

810
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:03,719
Speaker 1: think Keepers is one of them. Is It is a

811
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 1: phenomenal show that has brought a lot of this to

812
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 1: light that I had not heard of. You know, I

813
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 1: really applaud them for that. So my goal between now

814
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 1: and when I see you next week is to convince

815
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 1: I've got to find something that's going to draw you

816
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,799
Speaker 1: in into kind of like the true crime world, where

817
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:22,719
Speaker 1: you're not having to solve something that you can just

818
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 1: look at it and we can have a discussion about it.

819
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 1: I guess Bury Bones.

820
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 2: Should be enough for you, though, right just like here

821
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:31,799
Speaker 2: with Buried Bones, it's you know, I'm I'm wanting to

822
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:34,359
Speaker 2: solve you know, that's what I you know, that's why

823
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:37,839
Speaker 2: I got into the work. I got into Yeah, and

824
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 2: sometimes you know, I can get frustrated watching some of

825
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:43,600
Speaker 2: the true crime stuff because I'm not given the information

826
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 2: that I need to move forward with the case, you know,

827
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 2: And I know that's part of it.

828
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 1: I know. Sorry, Paul, I want to help. I want

829
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 1: us to solve everything. But next week we'll have some

830
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:59,759
Speaker 1: fabulous case that you'll learn something about. It could be

831
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 1: like how they made a krts and a horse and

832
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,840
Speaker 1: carts in the sixteen hundreds. It could be some wacky

833
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 1: new way that they tested ballistics in the nineteen tens.

834
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:12,720
Speaker 1: Who knows what it'll be on something weird.

835
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 3: I'm sure, Yeah, nope, I'm looking forward to it.

836
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 1: Okay, see you then, all right, Thanks Jig. This has

837
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 1: been an exactly right production.

838
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 2: For our sources and show notes go to exactly rightemedia

839
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 2: dot com slash Buried Bones sources.

840
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emrosi.

841
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

842
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:39,239
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

843
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:41,799
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

844
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

845
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hart Stark and Daniel Kramer.

846
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

847
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 1: Buried Bones.

848
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 2: Pod Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a

849
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:58,320
Speaker 2: Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decode

850
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 2: the criminal mind, is available now, and

851
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:05,560
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's cold Cases,

852
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:06,879
Speaker 1: is also available now