1 00:00:15,396 --> 00:00:24,076 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is deep background to show 2 00:00:24,156 --> 00:00:27,516 Speaker 1: where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:28,036 --> 00:00:32,516 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. As the school year starts up again, 4 00:00:32,956 --> 00:00:35,716 Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about a form of power that 5 00:00:35,836 --> 00:00:40,156 Speaker 1: we often overlook, and that is the power of universities. 6 00:00:40,916 --> 00:00:44,796 Speaker 1: Universities are not just centers of learning and of research 7 00:00:44,916 --> 00:00:49,716 Speaker 1: and of teaching. They're also powerful actors in the socialization 8 00:00:49,796 --> 00:00:53,316 Speaker 1: of young people into the values that our society cares about. 9 00:00:53,836 --> 00:00:57,316 Speaker 1: There are places where common sense is created, where new 10 00:00:57,396 --> 00:01:00,556 Speaker 1: knowledge is formed, and there are also places where there 11 00:01:00,556 --> 00:01:06,836 Speaker 1: are internal power dynamics, with faculty, students, deans, and administrators 12 00:01:07,156 --> 00:01:12,476 Speaker 1: all involved in a sometimes collaborative but sometimes antagonistic effort 13 00:01:12,516 --> 00:01:17,836 Speaker 1: to determine who controls what happens in the university. To 14 00:01:17,956 --> 00:01:22,316 Speaker 1: discuss power in the American university today, I'm joined by 15 00:01:22,396 --> 00:01:26,476 Speaker 1: Tamar Gendler. Tamar is the Dean of the Faculty of 16 00:01:26,596 --> 00:01:30,116 Speaker 1: Arts and Sciences at Yale University, where she's also the 17 00:01:30,196 --> 00:01:34,396 Speaker 1: Vincent Scully Professor of Philosophy. For those of you who 18 00:01:34,436 --> 00:01:37,596 Speaker 1: aren't academics, the dean of the Faculty of Arts and 19 00:01:37,636 --> 00:01:42,396 Speaker 1: Sciences is an extremely important and powerful person. Her job 20 00:01:42,796 --> 00:01:45,436 Speaker 1: is both to talk to the president and the provost 21 00:01:45,476 --> 00:01:49,036 Speaker 1: on the one side, the faculty on the other, and last, 22 00:01:49,036 --> 00:01:52,156 Speaker 1: and not least, the students and the people who actually 23 00:01:52,276 --> 00:01:56,036 Speaker 1: make the university run every day, the clerical and technical 24 00:01:56,076 --> 00:01:59,636 Speaker 1: workers who actually make sure that the lights are on 25 00:01:59,916 --> 00:02:02,756 Speaker 1: and the classrooms are ready, and that students have food 26 00:02:02,796 --> 00:02:05,196 Speaker 1: to eat. All of that cycles back to the power 27 00:02:05,236 --> 00:02:07,316 Speaker 1: of the dean of the Faculty of Arts and Sciences. 28 00:02:07,956 --> 00:02:12,716 Speaker 1: And because Tamar was and remains a brilliant philosopher whose 29 00:02:12,796 --> 00:02:15,356 Speaker 1: job is to think about the deeper meaning of the 30 00:02:15,396 --> 00:02:20,316 Speaker 1: world around us, she brings a distinctively thoughtful take to 31 00:02:20,516 --> 00:02:28,276 Speaker 1: questions of power in and around the university. Tamar, thank 32 00:02:28,276 --> 00:02:32,276 Speaker 1: you so much for joining me. The organization of power 33 00:02:32,316 --> 00:02:35,236 Speaker 1: in the university has evolved a lot. There used to 34 00:02:35,276 --> 00:02:37,676 Speaker 1: be an ideal of a university as a self governing 35 00:02:37,716 --> 00:02:42,396 Speaker 1: institution where the faculty more or less collectively ran the show. 36 00:02:42,436 --> 00:02:45,436 Speaker 1: But that's not been true for decades in the US, 37 00:02:45,516 --> 00:02:47,796 Speaker 1: and it's probably even less true today than it's ever been. 38 00:02:48,036 --> 00:02:51,236 Speaker 1: So when you want something to happen, to what degree 39 00:02:51,276 --> 00:02:54,876 Speaker 1: can you get it to happen? So governance in the 40 00:02:55,036 --> 00:03:00,676 Speaker 1: university is fundamentally a collaborative exercise. But I do have 41 00:03:00,956 --> 00:03:05,436 Speaker 1: resources that allow me to shape the segment of the 42 00:03:05,516 --> 00:03:09,036 Speaker 1: university for which I'm responsible in various ways. For example, 43 00:03:09,596 --> 00:03:16,316 Speaker 1: I control the budget importantly, I control the hiring of 44 00:03:16,436 --> 00:03:21,476 Speaker 1: faculty in certain areas, and I oversee the process of 45 00:03:21,996 --> 00:03:26,396 Speaker 1: tenure and promotion. One of the primary things that I 46 00:03:26,476 --> 00:03:29,436 Speaker 1: need to figure out how to do is to determine 47 00:03:29,636 --> 00:03:35,876 Speaker 1: whose voices to trust in making decisions, and how to 48 00:03:36,236 --> 00:03:41,956 Speaker 1: encourage people to speak honestly about things. But something that's 49 00:03:41,956 --> 00:03:45,316 Speaker 1: distinctive about academic management, at least in the US, at 50 00:03:45,356 --> 00:03:48,876 Speaker 1: least these days, still is that people in powerful positions 51 00:03:48,876 --> 00:03:52,316 Speaker 1: like you didn't come up through a managerial chaining process. 52 00:03:52,476 --> 00:03:54,596 Speaker 1: You came up by being a professor, in your case, 53 00:03:54,596 --> 00:03:58,836 Speaker 1: a philosophy professor. How does the fact that you and 54 00:03:58,916 --> 00:04:05,836 Speaker 1: other senior administrators were professors rather than professional managers affect 55 00:04:06,036 --> 00:04:09,436 Speaker 1: do you think the way that you exercise the lens 56 00:04:09,476 --> 00:04:14,516 Speaker 1: and responsibility that you have. So the kind of managerial 57 00:04:14,596 --> 00:04:20,156 Speaker 1: work that I do with regard to staff has been 58 00:04:20,276 --> 00:04:23,836 Speaker 1: a skill that I acquired only in and on the 59 00:04:23,956 --> 00:04:28,876 Speaker 1: job sense, and I found it enormously gratifying to learn 60 00:04:28,956 --> 00:04:33,116 Speaker 1: from people on what we sometimes call the backstage vice 61 00:04:33,116 --> 00:04:37,396 Speaker 1: presidential side of the academic house. How it is that 62 00:04:37,436 --> 00:04:42,676 Speaker 1: one engages in things like HR management, budgeting, thinking about 63 00:04:42,716 --> 00:04:45,316 Speaker 1: how we relate to the Office of General Counsel, the 64 00:04:45,596 --> 00:04:49,436 Speaker 1: city and state, how we relate to federal relations. All 65 00:04:49,476 --> 00:04:53,596 Speaker 1: of those are skills that are acquired through the course 66 00:04:53,756 --> 00:04:58,076 Speaker 1: of engaging in managerial work. Let me ask a question 67 00:04:58,116 --> 00:05:01,956 Speaker 1: about the relationship between those two parts, the front of 68 00:05:01,996 --> 00:05:03,556 Speaker 1: the house and the back of the house. To use 69 00:05:03,596 --> 00:05:05,836 Speaker 1: the analogy that you just use, which if I am 70 00:05:05,916 --> 00:05:09,076 Speaker 1: not mistaken, comes from the running of restaurants, may be appropriate. 71 00:05:09,116 --> 00:05:13,396 Speaker 1: A lot of faculty, a lot of my faculty colleagues, 72 00:05:13,476 --> 00:05:16,396 Speaker 1: especially my colleagues who are say, ten twenty years older 73 00:05:16,396 --> 00:05:19,956 Speaker 1: than I am, talk a lot about how there seem 74 00:05:19,996 --> 00:05:26,316 Speaker 1: to be many more layers of sub deans, dean lits, deanlings, 75 00:05:26,796 --> 00:05:31,996 Speaker 1: people who are effectively professional administrators and when they're being 76 00:05:31,996 --> 00:05:37,676 Speaker 1: described negatively, bureaucrats who are crucially involved in running these huge, 77 00:05:37,796 --> 00:05:40,556 Speaker 1: rich institutions. And I think it's true even at the 78 00:05:40,596 --> 00:05:43,836 Speaker 1: less rich institutions. And my older colleagues tend to talk 79 00:05:43,836 --> 00:05:46,436 Speaker 1: about this as something that they feel has changed significantly 80 00:05:46,436 --> 00:05:49,956 Speaker 1: over their time in the university. Do you think of that. 81 00:05:50,036 --> 00:05:53,596 Speaker 1: First of all, is that perception accurate or is that 82 00:05:53,796 --> 00:05:57,636 Speaker 1: a nostalgic perception that they have, And if it is accurate, 83 00:05:58,196 --> 00:06:00,956 Speaker 1: how is it changing our universities if they're being run 84 00:06:01,276 --> 00:06:04,716 Speaker 1: by people with increasingly with people with more professional training 85 00:06:04,716 --> 00:06:08,716 Speaker 1: and how to manage things, but with less knowledge of 86 00:06:09,156 --> 00:06:14,156 Speaker 1: the academic side of the job. The deans and deanlets 87 00:06:14,196 --> 00:06:17,916 Speaker 1: about which your colleagues complain are very often people whose 88 00:06:18,236 --> 00:06:22,716 Speaker 1: assignments are either regulatory in the sense that they are 89 00:06:22,796 --> 00:06:27,076 Speaker 1: asked to make sure that the university remains in conformity 90 00:06:27,116 --> 00:06:32,996 Speaker 1: with either an internally or externally imposed constraint a process 91 00:06:33,076 --> 00:06:35,476 Speaker 1: that needs to be followed in order to achieve a 92 00:06:35,516 --> 00:06:40,436 Speaker 1: certain outcome. Or they are involved in various aspects of 93 00:06:40,556 --> 00:06:46,476 Speaker 1: student services and student life where they interact directly with 94 00:06:46,636 --> 00:06:53,396 Speaker 1: students for whom college may be an unfamiliar familial experience. 95 00:06:54,636 --> 00:07:00,516 Speaker 1: That's two thirds. And in addition, as we know from 96 00:07:00,996 --> 00:07:09,476 Speaker 1: sociological theory, any bureaucracy develops systems which it then perpetuates. Tomorrow, 97 00:07:09,516 --> 00:07:13,636 Speaker 1: we've talked so far about the way that the power 98 00:07:13,716 --> 00:07:16,836 Speaker 1: operates within the university. I want to turn now to 99 00:07:16,876 --> 00:07:22,796 Speaker 1: the question of how universities exercise power and influence or 100 00:07:22,836 --> 00:07:27,316 Speaker 1: don't exercise power and influence over the society more broadly, 101 00:07:27,956 --> 00:07:30,396 Speaker 1: which is something that I think we often take for granted. 102 00:07:30,676 --> 00:07:34,116 Speaker 1: Rather than breaking down and thinking about I want to 103 00:07:34,156 --> 00:07:38,876 Speaker 1: begin that by asking you, how do you think a 104 00:07:39,036 --> 00:07:46,076 Speaker 1: university does influence the society more broadly, and then we 105 00:07:46,076 --> 00:07:48,756 Speaker 1: can move to how it should do that. Yeah, that's 106 00:07:48,796 --> 00:07:55,996 Speaker 1: a terrific question. So the fundamental purpose of a university 107 00:07:56,516 --> 00:08:03,396 Speaker 1: is to preserve, create, and transmit knowledge, and so at 108 00:08:03,396 --> 00:08:09,516 Speaker 1: its most fundamental level and in its ideal form wandwich 109 00:08:09,556 --> 00:08:16,436 Speaker 1: In university has power in society and empowers society is 110 00:08:16,476 --> 00:08:21,836 Speaker 1: through the preservation, creation, and transmission of knowledge. But one 111 00:08:21,836 --> 00:08:27,156 Speaker 1: of the most powerful things that universities do, in addition 112 00:08:27,316 --> 00:08:34,036 Speaker 1: to transmitting knowledge is certify that the transmission of knowledge 113 00:08:34,116 --> 00:08:39,836 Speaker 1: has taken place, and in so doing they create and 114 00:08:39,916 --> 00:08:46,716 Speaker 1: sustain the professional class. And of course that operation brings 115 00:08:46,836 --> 00:08:53,316 Speaker 1: with it the incredibly important socialization function, and universities in 116 00:08:53,516 --> 00:08:57,716 Speaker 1: America in particular, but in the world in general, play 117 00:08:57,716 --> 00:09:04,716 Speaker 1: an incredible role in forming and socializing the elite and 118 00:09:04,956 --> 00:09:09,556 Speaker 1: in differentiating among those who have been present at this 119 00:09:09,756 --> 00:09:14,476 Speaker 1: incredibly formative time of life between the ages of eighteen 120 00:09:14,796 --> 00:09:18,556 Speaker 1: and their early twenties, and those who have not been 121 00:09:19,156 --> 00:09:25,836 Speaker 1: formed in that kind of environment. What universities and colleges 122 00:09:26,196 --> 00:09:30,756 Speaker 1: do is, in addition to provide training that isn't professional training, 123 00:09:30,876 --> 00:09:37,596 Speaker 1: training of a kind that says, beyond the twelve years 124 00:09:37,636 --> 00:09:43,716 Speaker 1: of universal education, I have gone on to explore something. 125 00:09:44,196 --> 00:09:47,516 Speaker 1: And one of the astounding things about the way that 126 00:09:47,556 --> 00:09:53,036 Speaker 1: the American collegiate educational system works is, with the exception 127 00:09:53,396 --> 00:09:59,916 Speaker 1: of areas like engineering, it is largely content indifferent. And 128 00:10:00,436 --> 00:10:05,076 Speaker 1: what that suggests is that it is the acquisition of 129 00:10:05,076 --> 00:10:11,276 Speaker 1: a certain kind of mastery of something complicated and the 130 00:10:11,676 --> 00:10:16,276 Speaker 1: co presence with others who are also engaged in study. 131 00:10:16,356 --> 00:10:21,356 Speaker 1: That is what college is providing, in addition, of course, 132 00:10:21,436 --> 00:10:24,876 Speaker 1: to the particular skills that are being provided, skills of writing, 133 00:10:24,956 --> 00:10:29,396 Speaker 1: skills of mathematics, and knowledge of some or another subject matter. 134 00:10:29,956 --> 00:10:36,676 Speaker 1: But the fact that American industry typically hires people regardless 135 00:10:36,676 --> 00:10:40,556 Speaker 1: of area of studying college suggests that that certification process 136 00:10:40,996 --> 00:10:44,756 Speaker 1: is a process of certifying a different kind of knowledge 137 00:10:44,756 --> 00:10:48,756 Speaker 1: and skill acquisition. Although aren't a lot of students at 138 00:10:48,796 --> 00:10:51,516 Speaker 1: least voting with their feet and hinting that they don't 139 00:10:51,556 --> 00:10:53,836 Speaker 1: anticipate that it's going to be that way in the 140 00:10:53,876 --> 00:10:56,156 Speaker 1: long run. I mean, when you and I were in 141 00:10:56,236 --> 00:11:00,636 Speaker 1: college thirty plus years ago, we thought that majoring in 142 00:11:00,676 --> 00:11:03,556 Speaker 1: the humanities was something that could lead you to a 143 00:11:03,676 --> 00:11:05,716 Speaker 1: job teaching of the humanities is you and I both 144 00:11:05,796 --> 00:11:07,756 Speaker 1: ended up doing. Or it could lead you to working 145 00:11:07,756 --> 00:11:10,196 Speaker 1: for an investment bank, or could lead you to become 146 00:11:10,476 --> 00:11:13,076 Speaker 1: a poet, or could lead you to almost any sort 147 00:11:13,076 --> 00:11:17,796 Speaker 1: of thing. But today fewer and fewer students, not only universities, 148 00:11:17,796 --> 00:11:22,476 Speaker 1: but at elite universities, are interested in majoring in more 149 00:11:22,516 --> 00:11:26,796 Speaker 1: abstract humanities fields, which they don't perceive as leading to 150 00:11:27,596 --> 00:11:30,476 Speaker 1: a job so measured by a market stance. At least, 151 00:11:31,036 --> 00:11:37,556 Speaker 1: that idea of a general certification seems to be increasingly obsolete. 152 00:11:37,796 --> 00:11:42,476 Speaker 1: It's an interesting question what explains the decline of majors 153 00:11:42,636 --> 00:11:46,516 Speaker 1: in humanities, And I teach at one of the very 154 00:11:46,596 --> 00:11:49,676 Speaker 1: last universities that continues to have almost a third of 155 00:11:49,716 --> 00:11:53,996 Speaker 1: its students majoring in humanities fields. It is certainly the 156 00:11:54,036 --> 00:12:00,396 Speaker 1: case that students in university today are increasingly taking courses 157 00:12:00,476 --> 00:12:03,076 Speaker 1: in what we might think of as technical areas in 158 00:12:03,156 --> 00:12:07,916 Speaker 1: computer science, in data science, and in social science, fields 159 00:12:07,916 --> 00:12:12,756 Speaker 1: that have quantitative aspects like economics. But even though there 160 00:12:12,756 --> 00:12:17,236 Speaker 1: aren't as many students majoring in humanities, it remains the 161 00:12:17,316 --> 00:12:21,876 Speaker 1: case that the skills that are acquired through humanistic education, 162 00:12:22,516 --> 00:12:28,356 Speaker 1: the capacity to analyze argument, the capacity to take evidence 163 00:12:28,556 --> 00:12:34,436 Speaker 1: from an ambiguous source of information, the capacity to appreciate 164 00:12:34,516 --> 00:12:39,516 Speaker 1: what is esthetically valuable in addition to what is practically valuable, 165 00:12:40,156 --> 00:12:46,076 Speaker 1: remain things in which students are interested, and the remain 166 00:12:46,236 --> 00:12:51,636 Speaker 1: things that allow people to do, even in practical fields, 167 00:12:52,196 --> 00:12:58,076 Speaker 1: more interesting and more fulfilling work. So I don't know 168 00:12:58,436 --> 00:13:03,596 Speaker 1: whether the explanation for why it is that students aren't 169 00:13:03,636 --> 00:13:08,036 Speaker 1: studying humanities is solely that they think that it isn't 170 00:13:08,196 --> 00:13:12,956 Speaker 1: useful for careers. It may be in some ways just 171 00:13:13,236 --> 00:13:16,996 Speaker 1: a crowding out with the recognition that there are other 172 00:13:17,036 --> 00:13:21,196 Speaker 1: things that also need to be acquired, that are skills 173 00:13:21,236 --> 00:13:24,396 Speaker 1: that are at this point not yet taught fully in 174 00:13:24,516 --> 00:13:30,716 Speaker 1: high school. They require more than the twelve years to master. Yeah, 175 00:13:30,716 --> 00:13:32,836 Speaker 1: and I should be really clear that I am very 176 00:13:32,916 --> 00:13:39,116 Speaker 1: sad about the general decline in the humanities focus of students, 177 00:13:39,196 --> 00:13:43,676 Speaker 1: mostly because my own view is that without the humanities, 178 00:13:43,916 --> 00:13:46,676 Speaker 1: you can make stuff, you can build stuff, you can 179 00:13:46,716 --> 00:13:50,116 Speaker 1: solve certain kinds of technical problems, but you'll never know 180 00:13:50,196 --> 00:13:52,956 Speaker 1: what the right thing to do is. I mean, humanities 181 00:13:53,036 --> 00:13:57,276 Speaker 1: is interested fundamentally in normative questions and questions of what 182 00:13:57,716 --> 00:14:00,836 Speaker 1: the world ought to be arranged, like whether it's ethical 183 00:14:00,956 --> 00:14:06,156 Speaker 1: or moral, or esthetic or political. And in that sense, 184 00:14:06,476 --> 00:14:08,676 Speaker 1: in my view, at least, if you don't have the humanities, 185 00:14:09,316 --> 00:14:11,756 Speaker 1: your whole system is going to grind to a halt 186 00:14:11,876 --> 00:14:14,316 Speaker 1: because you're just I mean, well, it won't purely grind 187 00:14:14,356 --> 00:14:16,156 Speaker 1: to all, because people will still make decisions about what 188 00:14:16,156 --> 00:14:18,596 Speaker 1: they should do, but they'll do it without thinking. And 189 00:14:18,636 --> 00:14:21,756 Speaker 1: then you get the consequences that we have in the 190 00:14:21,756 --> 00:14:25,716 Speaker 1: world where new technologies emerge and are immediately deployed, and 191 00:14:25,756 --> 00:14:27,996 Speaker 1: then people look back a few years later, sometimes not 192 00:14:28,076 --> 00:14:29,876 Speaker 1: very many years later at all, and say, oh, no, 193 00:14:30,636 --> 00:14:32,636 Speaker 1: what did we do? And often the answer is you 194 00:14:32,676 --> 00:14:35,556 Speaker 1: didn't stop to think about the way you wanted things 195 00:14:35,596 --> 00:14:38,076 Speaker 1: to turn out. You only thought about the fact that 196 00:14:38,076 --> 00:14:41,796 Speaker 1: you had this cool new technology to play with. And no, 197 00:14:41,916 --> 00:14:44,916 Speaker 1: that's exactly right. The world doesn't stop because you're not 198 00:14:44,996 --> 00:14:47,796 Speaker 1: asking the normative questions. And one of the things that 199 00:14:48,036 --> 00:14:53,236 Speaker 1: humanities and the humanistic social sciences cause people to realize 200 00:14:53,276 --> 00:14:56,876 Speaker 1: is that there are always normative questions, whether attentive to 201 00:14:56,916 --> 00:15:01,076 Speaker 1: them or not, and that if you just move forward 202 00:15:01,116 --> 00:15:05,436 Speaker 1: without attending to them, you will end up with patterns 203 00:15:05,436 --> 00:15:07,876 Speaker 1: in the world which aren't the patterns that you would 204 00:15:07,916 --> 00:15:12,676 Speaker 1: have wanted. Tomorrow. When I asked you about what the 205 00:15:12,756 --> 00:15:16,236 Speaker 1: university is in fact to do powerwise, you started with 206 00:15:16,876 --> 00:15:21,116 Speaker 1: the ways that they transmit knowledge through certification and through socialization. 207 00:15:23,316 --> 00:15:26,596 Speaker 1: I want to ask you one more question about that aspect, 208 00:15:26,636 --> 00:15:28,556 Speaker 1: and then I want to switch to the question of 209 00:15:28,596 --> 00:15:31,796 Speaker 1: the making of knowledge. But before we get there, I 210 00:15:31,796 --> 00:15:33,476 Speaker 1: do want to ask one more question about the idea 211 00:15:33,516 --> 00:15:36,796 Speaker 1: of intellectual socialization, which I think is a phrase that 212 00:15:36,836 --> 00:15:39,556 Speaker 1: you use or something similar to that, and I wonder 213 00:15:39,596 --> 00:15:41,636 Speaker 1: what you mean by that, because one of the things 214 00:15:41,716 --> 00:15:44,916 Speaker 1: that a sociologist would say, or that a Martian would 215 00:15:44,916 --> 00:15:47,596 Speaker 1: say if they came and looked at our universities is 216 00:15:47,596 --> 00:15:51,316 Speaker 1: that the students do seem like they leave thinking a 217 00:15:51,316 --> 00:15:53,996 Speaker 1: little differently on a whole range of issues, or maybe 218 00:15:53,996 --> 00:15:56,876 Speaker 1: a lot differently than they do when they came in. 219 00:15:57,796 --> 00:16:00,796 Speaker 1: And that involves a whole bunch of different things. But 220 00:16:00,876 --> 00:16:04,316 Speaker 1: it's approaches to how they think about problems ideally, but 221 00:16:04,396 --> 00:16:08,076 Speaker 1: it also seems often to include solutions to those problems, 222 00:16:08,636 --> 00:16:13,596 Speaker 1: including sometimes political solutions. And so I'm wondering what did 223 00:16:13,636 --> 00:16:20,556 Speaker 1: you mean by intellectual socialization. Yeah, universities are like cities 224 00:16:20,836 --> 00:16:24,916 Speaker 1: in the sense that they bring together people from a 225 00:16:25,036 --> 00:16:31,276 Speaker 1: wide range of previous life experiences in a tightly socially 226 00:16:31,396 --> 00:16:39,476 Speaker 1: knit space that produces a lot of nonintended accidental encounters 227 00:16:39,516 --> 00:16:44,636 Speaker 1: that require people to recognize that the way in which 228 00:16:44,676 --> 00:16:47,476 Speaker 1: they happen to have lived up until the point when 229 00:16:47,516 --> 00:16:50,436 Speaker 1: they arrived at the university is just one of many, 230 00:16:50,516 --> 00:16:54,076 Speaker 1: many ways to have lived. So this is about the 231 00:16:54,116 --> 00:16:59,996 Speaker 1: way in which the socialization function almost inevitably results in 232 00:17:00,276 --> 00:17:05,316 Speaker 1: an unseating of what it is that had been accepted 233 00:17:05,436 --> 00:17:12,076 Speaker 1: as the natural or only or marked way of being. So, 234 00:17:12,156 --> 00:17:15,876 Speaker 1: in addition to the socialization an example of that because 235 00:17:15,876 --> 00:17:17,836 Speaker 1: that was that was that seemed correct to me, but 236 00:17:17,876 --> 00:17:22,876 Speaker 1: also abstract. Yeah, So, a student who grew up in 237 00:17:22,996 --> 00:17:26,516 Speaker 1: a particular religious community, a student who grew up with 238 00:17:26,676 --> 00:17:30,996 Speaker 1: a particular set of political values, a student who grew 239 00:17:31,036 --> 00:17:35,276 Speaker 1: up in a particular language, a student who grew up 240 00:17:35,396 --> 00:17:39,396 Speaker 1: in a particular social class. All of those are ways 241 00:17:39,436 --> 00:17:42,236 Speaker 1: of being that are felt very, very naturally to students, 242 00:17:42,436 --> 00:17:46,156 Speaker 1: and they typically grew up in a town. Towns have 243 00:17:46,236 --> 00:17:50,316 Speaker 1: a certain degree of heterogeneity to them. But to the 244 00:17:50,316 --> 00:17:52,996 Speaker 1: extent that you grew up in a particular locale, you've 245 00:17:52,996 --> 00:17:56,036 Speaker 1: had a particular set of experiences. You grew up on 246 00:17:56,116 --> 00:17:59,156 Speaker 1: a farm in the Midwest, or you grew up in 247 00:17:59,716 --> 00:18:02,476 Speaker 1: the Upper West Side of New York City, and those 248 00:18:02,476 --> 00:18:06,116 Speaker 1: are the set of experiences that you have. Coming into 249 00:18:06,236 --> 00:18:10,796 Speaker 1: contact with individuals from a wide range of other experiences 250 00:18:11,156 --> 00:18:14,236 Speaker 1: just makes it in f and coming into contact with 251 00:18:14,316 --> 00:18:19,596 Speaker 1: them in the particular way that universities and other youth 252 00:18:19,796 --> 00:18:22,356 Speaker 1: organizations do this right, if you go into the army, 253 00:18:22,756 --> 00:18:26,756 Speaker 1: you interact with people in an intense environment, in a 254 00:18:26,916 --> 00:18:32,036 Speaker 1: deeply social space, in an age stratified environment for a 255 00:18:32,076 --> 00:18:36,676 Speaker 1: crucial period of time. But the disruption of the assumption 256 00:18:36,796 --> 00:18:39,676 Speaker 1: that the only natural way to do things is the 257 00:18:39,756 --> 00:18:42,676 Speaker 1: way that you have always been doing things is one 258 00:18:42,676 --> 00:18:46,996 Speaker 1: of the crucial disruptions that universities bring. And that's a 259 00:18:47,036 --> 00:18:50,916 Speaker 1: result of the formal structure of the university. We haven't 260 00:18:50,996 --> 00:18:54,476 Speaker 1: yet gotten to the second question, which is the content question, 261 00:18:54,556 --> 00:18:56,996 Speaker 1: which is not just that you bring this group of 262 00:18:57,076 --> 00:19:00,716 Speaker 1: people together, but what it is that you do with them. 263 00:19:00,756 --> 00:19:02,916 Speaker 1: But let me make sure that I've answered your first 264 00:19:02,996 --> 00:19:05,196 Speaker 1: question before I move on to the second. I mean, 265 00:19:05,236 --> 00:19:07,356 Speaker 1: I think you have. I do think we should just 266 00:19:07,516 --> 00:19:11,556 Speaker 1: acknowledge that the effect that you're describing, you take a 267 00:19:11,556 --> 00:19:14,876 Speaker 1: lot of bright, young, impressionable people, you put them in 268 00:19:14,916 --> 00:19:18,836 Speaker 1: a single community, can produce for all that we talk about, 269 00:19:18,876 --> 00:19:24,156 Speaker 1: the diversity of viewpoints in our universities can produce some 270 00:19:24,316 --> 00:19:29,996 Speaker 1: degree of homogenization of their views. They come in very diverse, 271 00:19:30,316 --> 00:19:32,756 Speaker 1: and in principle, one of the reasons that we want 272 00:19:32,796 --> 00:19:35,716 Speaker 1: a big diverse student body is so that the student 273 00:19:35,716 --> 00:19:38,756 Speaker 1: body can remain intellectually diverse. So when they graduate, they 274 00:19:38,796 --> 00:19:41,396 Speaker 1: have many different points of views since they came in 275 00:19:41,396 --> 00:19:43,196 Speaker 1: with many points where they've been recruited to have many 276 00:19:43,236 --> 00:19:46,276 Speaker 1: points of view. And yet sometimes it doesn't work that way. 277 00:19:46,316 --> 00:19:48,956 Speaker 1: I mean, sometimes it leads to people reaching a kind 278 00:19:48,996 --> 00:19:54,076 Speaker 1: of background consensus on what they think. And critics of 279 00:19:54,076 --> 00:19:56,556 Speaker 1: elite universities, you know, I'm not one of them, but 280 00:19:56,596 --> 00:19:59,676 Speaker 1: there are critics of elite universities who say, gee, you know, 281 00:19:59,676 --> 00:20:03,116 Speaker 1: they come in students come in from a Trump county 282 00:20:04,076 --> 00:20:08,156 Speaker 1: and then they come into a university where statistically almost 283 00:20:08,156 --> 00:20:11,356 Speaker 1: nobody on any faculty anywhere in the United States voted 284 00:20:11,396 --> 00:20:15,596 Speaker 1: for Donald Trump. It's not just elite universities, it's all universities. 285 00:20:15,956 --> 00:20:18,756 Speaker 1: And then they're in a community where they emerge with 286 00:20:18,836 --> 00:20:22,796 Speaker 1: a view of, roughly speaking, what people with their education 287 00:20:22,836 --> 00:20:26,556 Speaker 1: are supposed to think, and that's a kind of liberal 288 00:20:26,876 --> 00:20:30,956 Speaker 1: or left of center consensus, which over the course of 289 00:20:30,956 --> 00:20:33,076 Speaker 1: their careers they may or may not sustain that point 290 00:20:33,076 --> 00:20:35,676 Speaker 1: of view over their lives, but that is the environment 291 00:20:35,676 --> 00:20:38,436 Speaker 1: that they're in, in in the environment that they that they leave. 292 00:20:38,436 --> 00:20:40,516 Speaker 1: And it just raises this interesting question of whether the 293 00:20:40,596 --> 00:20:46,116 Speaker 1: socialization affects are in some way a little bit at 294 00:20:46,116 --> 00:20:49,476 Speaker 1: odds with our stated goal in our universities of bringing 295 00:20:49,476 --> 00:20:52,316 Speaker 1: in people from all different perspectives and putting them all 296 00:20:52,356 --> 00:20:54,156 Speaker 1: together and mixing them up so that they'll come out 297 00:20:54,196 --> 00:20:59,476 Speaker 1: with lots of different perspectives. So a huge number of 298 00:20:59,476 --> 00:21:02,116 Speaker 1: interesting questions there. And of course there are students who 299 00:21:02,276 --> 00:21:06,196 Speaker 1: come to university without religious commitment and get involved with 300 00:21:06,236 --> 00:21:09,276 Speaker 1: a religious community and leave the university with the more 301 00:21:09,396 --> 00:21:13,916 Speaker 1: traditional set of values than they entered. But I agree 302 00:21:13,996 --> 00:21:18,956 Speaker 1: that in the contemporary context that direction of motion is 303 00:21:19,116 --> 00:21:23,156 Speaker 1: significantly rarer than the other direction of a student who 304 00:21:23,276 --> 00:21:28,716 Speaker 1: comes from a politically conservative environment and leaves with a 305 00:21:28,796 --> 00:21:36,676 Speaker 1: certain sense of justice driven concern about the well being 306 00:21:36,716 --> 00:21:41,676 Speaker 1: of the community. So what I would say is motivating 307 00:21:41,836 --> 00:21:47,716 Speaker 1: and appealing about the generational passion that you and I 308 00:21:48,156 --> 00:21:52,156 Speaker 1: think both feel among our students is that it is 309 00:21:52,316 --> 00:21:57,676 Speaker 1: driven by a deep sense of wanting the world to 310 00:21:57,876 --> 00:22:03,316 Speaker 1: be a more just and equitable and verdant place. To 311 00:22:03,356 --> 00:22:06,676 Speaker 1: the extent that I think the two sets of primary 312 00:22:06,716 --> 00:22:10,396 Speaker 1: concerns that I hear from students on our campus are 313 00:22:10,436 --> 00:22:14,796 Speaker 1: about racial and political justice on the one hand, and 314 00:22:15,236 --> 00:22:19,556 Speaker 1: about the long term concern for environment on the other. 315 00:22:19,996 --> 00:22:23,356 Speaker 1: And some of what's going on is the world is 316 00:22:23,876 --> 00:22:28,596 Speaker 1: a messy, ugly place in which lots of messy, ugly 317 00:22:28,716 --> 00:22:32,036 Speaker 1: evil things have happened. And some of our students come 318 00:22:32,036 --> 00:22:37,116 Speaker 1: to university without full knowledge of the way in which 319 00:22:37,156 --> 00:22:39,996 Speaker 1: the world that we live in came to be, and 320 00:22:40,196 --> 00:22:44,276 Speaker 1: some of them come to historical understanding of a kind 321 00:22:44,316 --> 00:22:47,596 Speaker 1: that they never had before. They continue to have the 322 00:22:47,676 --> 00:22:51,436 Speaker 1: normative moral commitments that you and I were talking about earlier, 323 00:22:51,956 --> 00:22:55,516 Speaker 1: and those combine to cause them to take on a 324 00:22:55,636 --> 00:23:03,116 Speaker 1: sort of passionate social justice picture. But it is certainly 325 00:23:03,156 --> 00:23:07,756 Speaker 1: the case that the recognition that there might also be 326 00:23:08,076 --> 00:23:14,676 Speaker 1: politically servative solutions to some of the justice challenges that 327 00:23:14,996 --> 00:23:18,876 Speaker 1: our students are moved by, that there might be ways 328 00:23:18,916 --> 00:23:23,916 Speaker 1: in which market, rather than regulation, could best determine the 329 00:23:24,036 --> 00:23:28,836 Speaker 1: sorts of outcomes that they seek. Environmentally are less prevalent 330 00:23:29,076 --> 00:23:35,556 Speaker 1: in at least the public voices on many elite campuses, 331 00:23:36,076 --> 00:23:42,076 Speaker 1: and I think, however, aware one is of the undercurrents 332 00:23:42,196 --> 00:23:46,516 Speaker 1: that run counter to that. It is undeniable that universities 333 00:23:46,836 --> 00:23:51,276 Speaker 1: right now are places where the dominant discourse is the 334 00:23:51,356 --> 00:23:56,396 Speaker 1: discourse of social justice, the discourse of environment, and interestingly, 335 00:23:56,396 --> 00:24:00,636 Speaker 1: in the case of social justice, it's very domestically focused. 336 00:24:00,916 --> 00:24:06,596 Speaker 1: I hear much less conversation on campus about issues of 337 00:24:06,876 --> 00:24:13,796 Speaker 1: international justice, global poverty, global freedom, civil rights of individuals 338 00:24:13,876 --> 00:24:18,196 Speaker 1: outside the United States than I do about dialogues of 339 00:24:18,316 --> 00:24:22,036 Speaker 1: the very undeniably important set of questions that we face 340 00:24:22,076 --> 00:24:26,076 Speaker 1: as a nation around issues of racial justice and social class. 341 00:24:27,676 --> 00:24:40,636 Speaker 1: We'll be right back tomorrow. Let's turn to the making 342 00:24:40,676 --> 00:24:45,316 Speaker 1: of knowledge research. Universities are supposed to be places where 343 00:24:45,436 --> 00:24:49,556 Speaker 1: we get new knowledge, not just transmit it, but discover it, 344 00:24:49,756 --> 00:24:56,356 Speaker 1: invent it. How does that project express itself in power 345 00:24:56,516 --> 00:24:59,636 Speaker 1: terms visa via the rest of the world. I mean, 346 00:24:59,676 --> 00:25:02,316 Speaker 1: assuming that these universities do in fact produce knowledge, which 347 00:25:02,316 --> 00:25:05,956 Speaker 1: I think they do, how does that affect the rest 348 00:25:05,996 --> 00:25:10,476 Speaker 1: of the world from a power perspective. It's an interesting question, 349 00:25:10,516 --> 00:25:14,276 Speaker 1: and I was thinking about the ways in which the 350 00:25:14,356 --> 00:25:18,596 Speaker 1: United States, I think, both in medicine, in drug development, 351 00:25:18,796 --> 00:25:27,636 Speaker 1: and in universities, produces a disproportionate amount of what the 352 00:25:27,676 --> 00:25:34,876 Speaker 1: world gets intellectually in a way whose financing is extraordinary. 353 00:25:34,956 --> 00:25:39,556 Speaker 1: That is, a large proportion of the world's most highly 354 00:25:39,636 --> 00:25:45,316 Speaker 1: ranked universities are American universities, and the proportion of the 355 00:25:45,316 --> 00:25:50,156 Speaker 1: world's discoveries that were made in American universities due to 356 00:25:50,436 --> 00:25:56,276 Speaker 1: federal funding and student tuition and the other resources taxpayer 357 00:25:56,316 --> 00:26:00,556 Speaker 1: resources that go into state universities, were really truly extraordinary. 358 00:26:00,716 --> 00:26:04,556 Speaker 1: And so what I would say is American universities became 359 00:26:04,716 --> 00:26:10,476 Speaker 1: the place that the world went to gain knowledge. Virtually 360 00:26:10,516 --> 00:26:15,956 Speaker 1: all of the elite Chinese universities have faculty on them 361 00:26:15,996 --> 00:26:22,116 Speaker 1: who were trained in American universities. Most of Iran's engineers 362 00:26:22,156 --> 00:26:27,676 Speaker 1: are trained in American universities. Large number of the world's 363 00:26:27,716 --> 00:26:33,196 Speaker 1: political leaders were trained in American universities. And so the 364 00:26:33,276 --> 00:26:39,876 Speaker 1: production of knowledge in American universities gave America as a 365 00:26:39,876 --> 00:26:44,516 Speaker 1: place where discovery happened a sort of disproportionate role in 366 00:26:44,556 --> 00:26:49,316 Speaker 1: the world's intellectual economy. It's now the case that Asia 367 00:26:49,556 --> 00:26:53,076 Speaker 1: in particular, China in particular, but other parts of Asia 368 00:26:53,156 --> 00:26:59,036 Speaker 1: as well, and in some ways parts of Europe and 369 00:26:59,236 --> 00:27:06,076 Speaker 1: a little bit in Canada are producing new knowledge at 370 00:27:06,356 --> 00:27:10,676 Speaker 1: a rate and with investment of a kind that are 371 00:27:11,356 --> 00:27:13,836 Speaker 1: as intense as in the US. Certainly that's the case 372 00:27:13,916 --> 00:27:18,196 Speaker 1: in China in terms of scientific knowledge, and the question 373 00:27:18,276 --> 00:27:24,756 Speaker 1: of whether that will ultimately undermine the fragile ecosystem that 374 00:27:24,916 --> 00:27:29,596 Speaker 1: is the American university system is a really interesting one. 375 00:27:30,276 --> 00:27:32,916 Speaker 1: How close are we to that kind of an undermining 376 00:27:32,956 --> 00:27:37,276 Speaker 1: I mean, how much do you see that decline as 377 00:27:37,676 --> 00:27:41,876 Speaker 1: imminent versus being something that's still some years off. I mean, 378 00:27:41,876 --> 00:27:44,356 Speaker 1: it still remains the case that people from all over 379 00:27:44,396 --> 00:27:46,796 Speaker 1: the world want to send their children to study in 380 00:27:46,796 --> 00:27:49,076 Speaker 1: American universities, even people who don't particularly care for the 381 00:27:49,196 --> 00:27:54,156 Speaker 1: United States. Somehow, our educational system remains highly desirable from 382 00:27:54,196 --> 00:27:56,716 Speaker 1: a global standpoint, even as the power of the United 383 00:27:56,716 --> 00:27:59,636 Speaker 1: States more generally is often perceived by many to be 384 00:27:59,676 --> 00:28:03,996 Speaker 1: in decline. So I think there's a number of questions there. 385 00:28:04,116 --> 00:28:08,756 Speaker 1: American universities do much more than transmit knowledge. American universities 386 00:28:08,956 --> 00:28:15,476 Speaker 1: are places where a crucial kind of socialization happens, and 387 00:28:15,516 --> 00:28:18,836 Speaker 1: where the creation of a certain kind of cultural capital 388 00:28:19,436 --> 00:28:22,356 Speaker 1: is provided to the individuals who attend them, and a 389 00:28:22,476 --> 00:28:27,756 Speaker 1: set of social connections are established. So the rise of 390 00:28:28,156 --> 00:28:32,236 Speaker 1: research in places other than the United States, I think 391 00:28:32,396 --> 00:28:38,116 Speaker 1: doesn't undermine the particular socialization role that American universities play. 392 00:28:38,156 --> 00:28:43,196 Speaker 1: And of course American universities have this very interesting structure 393 00:28:43,316 --> 00:28:50,516 Speaker 1: whereby the value of the degree of their alumni depends 394 00:28:50,596 --> 00:28:55,716 Speaker 1: in part on the contemporary status of the institution with 395 00:28:55,756 --> 00:28:59,596 Speaker 1: which the alumni are affiliated. So every American university has 396 00:28:59,676 --> 00:29:04,996 Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of people across generations in whose self 397 00:29:05,116 --> 00:29:11,356 Speaker 1: interest it lies to keep that university leat and respect it. 398 00:29:11,676 --> 00:29:15,276 Speaker 1: So there's a very interesting set of interest in parties 399 00:29:15,516 --> 00:29:21,556 Speaker 1: keeping the socialization and social network role of American university's intact. 400 00:29:22,276 --> 00:29:26,196 Speaker 1: When I was talking about the rise, particularly of investment 401 00:29:26,436 --> 00:29:30,756 Speaker 1: in Chinese universities, I was thinking about the ways in 402 00:29:30,796 --> 00:29:36,356 Speaker 1: which there is serious investment in scientific research, And you're right, 403 00:29:36,516 --> 00:29:39,756 Speaker 1: in the biological sciences, in the physical sciences, and in 404 00:29:39,836 --> 00:29:43,716 Speaker 1: engineering and applied sciences, and in some of those cases, 405 00:29:43,876 --> 00:29:48,196 Speaker 1: with regard to the capacity to make discovery that comes 406 00:29:48,356 --> 00:29:51,916 Speaker 1: most effectively at scale, that is, if you have a 407 00:29:51,996 --> 00:29:55,396 Speaker 1: thousand of a particular machine as opposed to a hundred 408 00:29:55,796 --> 00:29:59,036 Speaker 1: or ten of them in that domain, I think it 409 00:29:59,196 --> 00:30:03,476 Speaker 1: is imminent that discoveries will take place of a kind 410 00:30:03,676 --> 00:30:07,236 Speaker 1: that won't take place in this country. But with regard 411 00:30:07,316 --> 00:30:11,076 Speaker 1: to the socialization role of diversities, I don't think that 412 00:30:11,436 --> 00:30:16,036 Speaker 1: change is imminent. Do you think, tamarrow that seen as 413 00:30:16,076 --> 00:30:20,436 Speaker 1: a whole, that elite US universities have too much power 414 00:30:20,476 --> 00:30:22,476 Speaker 1: in the world, or too little power in the world, 415 00:30:22,596 --> 00:30:25,196 Speaker 1: or just about the right amount of power. I mean, 416 00:30:25,316 --> 00:30:29,596 Speaker 1: is there a kind of Goldilocks answer to this? I 417 00:30:29,636 --> 00:30:35,796 Speaker 1: would say, as gate keepers to a certain kind of 418 00:30:35,956 --> 00:30:41,276 Speaker 1: social elite, that one's ability to enter that world is 419 00:30:41,316 --> 00:30:47,916 Speaker 1: determined at age seventeen, is I think non ideal if 420 00:30:47,956 --> 00:30:50,956 Speaker 1: what it is that we're trying to do is identify 421 00:30:51,396 --> 00:30:56,036 Speaker 1: and cultivate talent and allow a certain kind of flourishing. 422 00:30:56,436 --> 00:30:58,516 Speaker 1: The United States is one of the few places where 423 00:30:58,596 --> 00:31:03,236 Speaker 1: you have flexibility throughout the life course with regard to education, 424 00:31:03,356 --> 00:31:07,516 Speaker 1: but not with regard to access to elite education. So 425 00:31:07,556 --> 00:31:11,676 Speaker 1: I would say with are to the socialization role that 426 00:31:11,716 --> 00:31:16,396 Speaker 1: they play and the fact that it requires an identification 427 00:31:16,516 --> 00:31:19,716 Speaker 1: of skill and talent so early in life in a 428 00:31:19,756 --> 00:31:24,396 Speaker 1: country that has invested so little in its public education 429 00:31:24,476 --> 00:31:28,636 Speaker 1: system is problematic and is a way in which the 430 00:31:28,876 --> 00:31:33,476 Speaker 1: particular gatekeeping role that universities play, or elite universities play, 431 00:31:34,036 --> 00:31:39,596 Speaker 1: is problematic against a backdrop of uninequitable K twelve and 432 00:31:39,756 --> 00:31:43,116 Speaker 1: in fact pre K system. On the other hand, I 433 00:31:43,156 --> 00:31:48,156 Speaker 1: would say that the information and discoveries and insights that 434 00:31:48,356 --> 00:31:54,156 Speaker 1: universities have take longer to permeate culture than would be ideal. 435 00:31:54,196 --> 00:31:58,516 Speaker 1: It took behavioral economics as a way of understanding human 436 00:31:58,556 --> 00:32:03,436 Speaker 1: decision making longer perhaps than it should have to affect 437 00:32:03,516 --> 00:32:06,916 Speaker 1: how it is that we think about governance and behavior. 438 00:32:06,996 --> 00:32:10,156 Speaker 1: So there's a way in which universities have too much 439 00:32:10,196 --> 00:32:15,076 Speaker 1: power the socialization at seventeen, and ways in which they 440 00:32:15,116 --> 00:32:18,836 Speaker 1: had too little the role that information plays in determining 441 00:32:18,996 --> 00:32:22,236 Speaker 1: our activities tomorrow. I want to thank you for a 442 00:32:22,236 --> 00:32:25,436 Speaker 1: fascinating conversation and for being so candid about the upsides 443 00:32:25,476 --> 00:32:28,916 Speaker 1: and downsides of the way power is deployed in universities. 444 00:32:29,076 --> 00:32:32,196 Speaker 1: I feel very lucky to know that a person as 445 00:32:32,196 --> 00:32:34,636 Speaker 1: thoughtful as you are is deeply involved in that process 446 00:32:34,676 --> 00:32:36,716 Speaker 1: and as thinking so hard about how it happens. So 447 00:32:36,836 --> 00:32:39,636 Speaker 1: thank you for the work that you're doing now in 448 00:32:39,916 --> 00:32:43,116 Speaker 1: running one of the great American universities. Noah, thank you 449 00:32:43,236 --> 00:32:49,716 Speaker 1: for a characteristically insightful, provocative, and thoughtful set of questions. 450 00:32:49,756 --> 00:32:53,836 Speaker 1: It is always a joy to interact with you. We'll 451 00:32:53,876 --> 00:33:06,476 Speaker 1: be right back. Talking to Dean Tamar Gender, I was 452 00:33:06,556 --> 00:33:09,916 Speaker 1: really struck by the dual way that she conceives of 453 00:33:09,916 --> 00:33:13,996 Speaker 1: power in and around the university. First, there's the question 454 00:33:14,076 --> 00:33:18,516 Speaker 1: of power within the university, and in that context, Tamar 455 00:33:18,756 --> 00:33:21,276 Speaker 1: was very clear that it's a mistake to think of 456 00:33:21,276 --> 00:33:24,916 Speaker 1: the university's power as emanating either from the top or 457 00:33:24,956 --> 00:33:28,436 Speaker 1: the bottom, or anywhere in between. Rather, power in a 458 00:33:28,556 --> 00:33:33,196 Speaker 1: university is complexly negotiated between all of the different actors 459 00:33:33,236 --> 00:33:36,716 Speaker 1: who are involved. It's not like the dean can speak 460 00:33:36,876 --> 00:33:40,716 Speaker 1: and expect the entire faculty to listen. Similarly, it's not 461 00:33:40,756 --> 00:33:43,556 Speaker 1: like the faculty can express their views and expect the 462 00:33:43,596 --> 00:33:46,596 Speaker 1: students to fall into line. In fact, what we see 463 00:33:46,596 --> 00:33:50,196 Speaker 1: within the university is a lot of different actors trying 464 00:33:50,236 --> 00:33:53,636 Speaker 1: to work out how they can function collectively while still 465 00:33:53,676 --> 00:33:58,836 Speaker 1: pressing for the things that they believe in the most simultaneously. 466 00:33:59,396 --> 00:34:01,756 Speaker 1: With respect to the role of the university in the world, 467 00:34:02,076 --> 00:34:06,796 Speaker 1: Tamar spoke extraordinarily thoughtfully about how important it is for 468 00:34:06,996 --> 00:34:11,236 Speaker 1: universities to train people and to generate ideas about what 469 00:34:11,396 --> 00:34:16,076 Speaker 1: our values are and what our values should be. Those 470 00:34:16,316 --> 00:34:20,276 Speaker 1: are the topics that the humanities covers, and without them, 471 00:34:20,556 --> 00:34:24,756 Speaker 1: our society would be adrift, full of technologies, full of 472 00:34:24,756 --> 00:34:28,316 Speaker 1: new financial instruments, but with no idea what we should 473 00:34:28,316 --> 00:34:31,556 Speaker 1: do with them, what's ethical and what's not, and what 474 00:34:31,756 --> 00:34:36,076 Speaker 1: overall objectives we should be aiming to achieve. Simultaneously, the 475 00:34:36,156 --> 00:34:40,556 Speaker 1: university's power in the world also stems from the social sciences, 476 00:34:40,596 --> 00:34:43,836 Speaker 1: which study the ways that human beings actually interact with 477 00:34:43,876 --> 00:34:47,036 Speaker 1: each other and actually deploy power relative to one another, 478 00:34:47,556 --> 00:34:52,196 Speaker 1: and the sciences, which themselves explore in the deepest sense, 479 00:34:52,556 --> 00:34:56,996 Speaker 1: the nature of the world around us. In those senses, 480 00:34:57,196 --> 00:35:01,276 Speaker 1: the university plays a crucial role in helping to shape 481 00:35:01,436 --> 00:35:05,756 Speaker 1: a healthy society, and where the universities go awry, the 482 00:35:05,916 --> 00:35:10,756 Speaker 1: society's own troubles are unlikely to be far behind. So 483 00:35:10,796 --> 00:35:13,036 Speaker 1: as you send your kids off to school, or go 484 00:35:13,116 --> 00:35:17,436 Speaker 1: back to teaching or studying yourself. Remember that, whether you 485 00:35:17,516 --> 00:35:21,356 Speaker 1: like it or not, you're participating in multiple great power 486 00:35:21,476 --> 00:35:25,236 Speaker 1: dances that shape the way the world around us operates. 487 00:35:26,156 --> 00:35:28,956 Speaker 1: Until the next time I speak to you, Breathe deep, 488 00:35:29,476 --> 00:35:33,396 Speaker 1: think deep thoughts, and, if circumstances will allow it, have 489 00:35:33,716 --> 00:35:37,756 Speaker 1: a little fun. Deep Background is brought to you by 490 00:35:37,796 --> 00:35:41,876 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. Our producer is Mola Board, our engineer is 491 00:35:41,916 --> 00:35:46,116 Speaker 1: ben Toalliday, and our showrunner is Sophie Crane mckibbon. Editorial 492 00:35:46,156 --> 00:35:50,756 Speaker 1: support from noahm Osband. Theme music by Luis Gara at Pushkin. 493 00:35:50,876 --> 00:35:54,756 Speaker 1: Thanks to Mia Lobell, Julia Barton, Lydia Jeancott, Heather Faine, 494 00:35:54,996 --> 00:35:59,836 Speaker 1: Carlie Migliori, Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler, and Jacob Weissberg. You 495 00:35:59,836 --> 00:36:02,396 Speaker 1: can find me on Twitter at Noah R. Feldman. I 496 00:36:02,436 --> 00:36:04,876 Speaker 1: also write a column for Bloomberg Opinion, which you can 497 00:36:04,876 --> 00:36:09,396 Speaker 1: find at Bloomberg dot com slash Feldman. To discover bloombergsals 498 00:36:09,476 --> 00:36:12,956 Speaker 1: late of podcasts, go to Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts, 499 00:36:13,316 --> 00:36:15,796 Speaker 1: and if you like what you heard today, please write 500 00:36:15,836 --> 00:36:19,556 Speaker 1: a review or tell a friend. This is Deep Background.