1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: I don't know that I'm made for ox work. I 2 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: couldn't even be like a paralegal in the Old West. 3 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: I struggle at a best Western, so I can't imagine 4 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: if I'm at the actual least Western. You know what 5 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: I mean, the actual West. So yeah, even a best 6 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: Western is too Western for you. Today I am joined 7 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: by former Obama speech writer, current pod Save America co host, 8 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: and a guy I considered to be a whip smart, 9 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: world class communicator with a startling command of the issues 10 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:43,520 Speaker 1: and devastating comedic timing. He's also somehow turned crippling anxiety 11 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: about the future of America into a wildly successful media empire. 12 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: Please welcome the one and only John love It. Hi. 13 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 1: What an intro? Thank you? Hey? Yeah, that's what we 14 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: do here. We honor our guests, we elevate them. And 15 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: I've been I've been on your shows over the years 16 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: many times. I'm so glad to have you on here. So, 17 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 1: in your job at Crooked Media, you basically spend a 18 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: lot of time analyzing the daily horrors of American politics, 19 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:23,039 Speaker 1: particularly Trump World, and yet somehow you stay quick and 20 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: clever and weirdly hopeful. What's your secret like what's the 21 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:32,680 Speaker 1: like are you is it just therapy or are you 22 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 1: on black market ketamine? Like? How do you not collapse 23 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: into despair all the time. I want you to know something. 24 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 1: If I ever am on ketymine, it will be from 25 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: a prestigious Los Angeles Chase pill pushing fancy doctor. I'm 26 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: not going to do black market drugs, forgive that why 27 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: I moved to this city, and I shouldn't know better. 28 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: But so it's interesting. The truth is for me, I 29 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: think hope is important. I think it's important that people 30 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: feel it because I think without it they may not 31 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 1: be as involved or invested in it has real genuine value. 32 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: But it's never been my motivator, to be honest, I've 33 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: always been motivated by anger. I really have, like what 34 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 1: like anger, not just anger at Republicans who I disagree with, 35 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: but like angry at the fact that these problems are solvable, 36 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: right like just I like, Yeah, I'm the kind of 37 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: person where I was at a buffet line over the weekend. 38 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: In fact, what a life I lead? And I'm at 39 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: this buffet line and there was basically it was a 40 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 1: Nacho's buffet line, okay, And here's how it was organized. 41 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 1: It went plates, chips, cheese, another bowl of chips, another 42 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 1: bowl of cheese. There's a long fucking line behind me 43 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 1: and in front of me. I see this, and nobody's 44 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: doing anything. And so I walk to the front of 45 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: the line. I take half the stack of plates and 46 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 1: I put it next to the other bowl of cheese 47 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 1: and chips, so that a whole group of people aren't 48 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 1: walking by. And because that's where the logjam was, that's 49 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 1: where the hold up was. Okay, look, I see that 50 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 1: I'm becoming the old Jewish relatives I knew from my childhood. Yeah, 51 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: you're Larry David all of a sudden, But in ways 52 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: large and small, that is my nature. I can't stand 53 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: those things. And so maybe I was just always motivated 54 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: by the kinds of like. I don't need to love 55 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: or be inspired every day to be motivated to participate 56 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: or make jokes or do whatever we need to do. 57 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: So maybe that's my good fortune. I do think like 58 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: in a serious way, there's a whole home media apparatus 59 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: that wants people to feel cynical and negative and to 60 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: view all politics as corrupt and all politicians is useless. 61 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: And if you give into that, the people that want 62 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: you to feel that way when they really do. And 63 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: as bad as things have got, as bad as they 64 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: could continue to get, there are always places where we 65 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: have agency. And if you're giving up, it's not because 66 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: you can't make a difference or you can't be involved, 67 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: or you can't have an impact. It's because either you 68 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 1: don't know the way to find it or you've decided 69 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,559 Speaker 1: it's too hard. And maybe that's okay, that's something people 70 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: can decide. But like I think there's a way a 71 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: which people try to tell themselves things are worse than 72 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: they seem or are irredeemable because it makes it easier. 73 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: And the truth is, hope makes demands of us. It does, 74 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 1: and it requires you to do things well said. Thank 75 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: you for reflecting on that with me. I actually I 76 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: kind of only want to talk about this stuff with you. 77 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:42,279 Speaker 1: I just like how you communicate about these things. Just 78 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 1: a quick question. You were on the show Survivor. That's right, 79 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 1: Did you guys at any point on that show ever 80 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: consider eating one another, just like casually a backup plan? 81 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 1: The truth is I was only I was only surviving 82 00:04:57,520 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: for three nights, which meant I only really missed three 83 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,359 Speaker 1: and eating a fellow person doesn't come up after three dinners, 84 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 1: you're already taking this question too seriously. But so it 85 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 1: never comes to that. The other thing, too, is there 86 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 1: are coconuts strewn about. Sure right, you know, the exact 87 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: number of coconuts one might need to survive happened to 88 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: be randomly distributed by I think God. Uh yeah, Well, 89 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: today's NAF does involve actual cannibalism because one of the 90 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:28,919 Speaker 1: most famous disasters in American history. We're talking about the 91 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: Donner Party. Hell yeah. The years eighteen forty six a 92 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: time when Americans were charging westward under the banner of 93 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: manifest destiny, which was basically the nineteenth century version of 94 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: I want it and God said I could have it, 95 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 1: so gimme it. It was kind of a conveniently divine 96 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:55,159 Speaker 1: permission slip for land grabs, broken treaties, and some really 97 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: creative definitions of morality. But we'll come back to all that. So, 98 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: like today, eighteen forty six is a time of deep uncertainty. 99 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 1: Most of the people heading west, they're not thrill seekers, 100 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: they're not adventurers. They're just families chasing stability and hoping 101 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 1: for a fresh start. John, have you ever had the 102 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: fantasy of just like leaving it all behind and walking 103 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: away from everything for a fresh start, like just off 104 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: somewhere new. I'll tell you it's pretty embarrassing. But my 105 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:30,480 Speaker 1: friend Sam and I when we were graduating college, we 106 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: decided we really wanted to like we're gonna we want 107 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: to like go west, all right. We really did talk 108 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: about this, and are in unimaginative brains. We were like, 109 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: we're gonna go to Alaska. We're gonna move to Alaska, 110 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 1: but we were gonna become paralegals there. And I don't 111 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 1: really understand how it was. We'd like twenty twenty one, 112 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 1: and we thought, oh, well, go become paralegals because we 113 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: know we could get that job. And I just there's 114 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 1: something so embarrassing about imagining going all the way to 115 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: allow SCA as an experiment, but being only able to 116 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,040 Speaker 1: conceive of an office job once we got there. We 117 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 1: could have gone fishing, we could have done a lot 118 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 1: of different things, but that was what we imagined. That 119 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: there was a Jewish pragmatism in the heart of even 120 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: that adventure. But there's also like this ken keezy kind 121 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 1: of like adventure spirit to Alaska that we all crave 122 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: kudos to you for that. Thank you. So it's eighteen 123 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: forty six. The Oregon Trail was a well worn path 124 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: at this point. There were maps, guide books, and a 125 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: pretty clear playbook for how to make it successfully, as 126 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: long as you leave on time, follow the route, and 127 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: don't try to get too fancy, which makes what happened 128 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: next all the more unbelievable because one group looked at 129 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: that solid, proven plan and they were just like, hold 130 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: my beer, because we got better ideas. We're going to 131 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: do this our own way. What's your dinner party knowledge. 132 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: I have never done a full deep dive. There's some 133 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: tiny part of my brain that members that at some 134 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: point they get hoodwinked in some way. We'll get there, 135 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:08,119 Speaker 1: but you're right. Let's meet the partiers, shall we. First 136 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: up brothers George and Jacob Donner, who brought their entire families, kids, wives, 137 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 1: kids from other wives, basically just a massive frontier Brady bunch. 138 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,679 Speaker 1: They also hired a crew of teamsters, not the Jimmy 139 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: Hoffa kind. Back then, a teamster was someone who drove 140 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: a team of oxen. Today, of course, it means a 141 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: Union truck driver, so basically a similar vibe as today, 142 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:34,559 Speaker 1: just more hay and less honking. So do you think 143 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: you'd make a good teamster back in the day or 144 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 1: would you just tap out at the first blister? Oh yeah, 145 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 1: I don't know that I'm made for ox work. I 146 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:46,439 Speaker 1: couldn't even be like a paralegal in the Old West. 147 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: To your earlier point, I struggle at a best Western, right, 148 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: no matter if it's if it's in the West, or 149 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: even if it's in the East. Yeah, a long time 150 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: along a highway upstate New York, I'm at a best Western. 151 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: I'm complaining You're life. So I can't imagine if I'm 152 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 1: at the actual least Western, you know what I mean, 153 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: the actual West, the actual the worst Western, which is 154 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: the real Old West. Okay, So yeah, even a best 155 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: Western is too Western for you, right right, all right, 156 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: all right? Well, also joining the crew James f Reed, 157 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 1: an Irish immigrant from Springfield, Illinois, whose business had just 158 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,199 Speaker 1: gone belly up, so he's looking for a fresh start. 159 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: He brought along his wife, Margaret, their kids, and Grandma Keys, 160 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: who is in her seventies. That's that's got to be 161 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 1: a tough old broad right, Just I'm surprised the Donners 162 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: would have allowed Irish people. I think that's probably where 163 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: they that was where they went wrong maybe. So at 164 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 1: the start here we're talking about roughly thirty one people 165 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 1: in the group. Now I'm going to throw out numbers 166 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 1: this whole time, but historians kind of dispute the exact numbers. 167 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: So these are rough numbers about thirty one people in 168 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: the group. And according to young Virgin, the Reeds had 169 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:05,559 Speaker 1: the nicest ride, what she called a two story pioneer 170 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: palace car pulled by four Oxen. Meanwhile, the Donners were 171 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: apparently slumming it with just three Oxen wagons. So even 172 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 1: on the Oregon Trail, teenage girls, or they're going to 173 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: judge your ride, there were double deckers. Yeah, I know, 174 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: quick little sidebar, John love it any like disastrous road 175 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: trips in your life, because this is about to go 176 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:33,559 Speaker 1: off the rails. I'll tell you. I was the presidential 177 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:37,439 Speaker 1: speech writerer, and it was my job to be on 178 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 1: the road with the president on a rural tour. He 179 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,959 Speaker 1: was doing a swing of rural areas talking about rural issues, 180 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 1: and something went wrong with my physical plant, with my corpus, no, 181 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:53,679 Speaker 1: my habeas. Okay, this is very cryptic, but it sounds 182 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: like sounds like you was sick, You're getting ill. You've 183 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:59,959 Speaker 1: never been going to the bathroom while the plane landed. 184 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:05,079 Speaker 1: That's not something you've ever done. You've never been You're 185 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 1: not allowed to. And literally I am having I'm I'll 186 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 1: just I'm shooting my brains out on Air Force one 187 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: while it is physically landing. And I know that I 188 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 1: have like thirty seconds after this plane stops to get 189 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 1: to the van because the motorcade leaves when the President 190 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 1: gets off the plane. And I spent that whole day wondering, 191 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: am I gonna have to like fake some sort of 192 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 1: a medical episode to get this van to pull over? 193 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: Because I was in trouble that whole day. That whole day, God, 194 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 1: I am sick to my stuf. Where is this? Where city? 195 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: Are you at it? As well? But where is this 196 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:48,079 Speaker 1: mouth and butt? That's where it is? Geographically, I think 197 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 1: we had flown maybe into Des Moines and we were 198 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 1: doing a swing through Iowa, Okay, And uh it was 199 00:11:55,679 --> 00:12:00,439 Speaker 1: an unbelievable nightmare. It was my secret nightmare. But I 200 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: I made it all the way through. Nobody was the wiser. 201 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: I mean, just like it was unbelievable. It was a 202 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 1: high high low low day. I do love that story. Okay, 203 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 1: we're jumping back in. The Donner Party officially departed Independence, 204 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 1: Missouri and headed to the Oregon Trail on May twelfth, 205 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 1: eighteen forty six, having now ballooned to roughly eighty seven members. 206 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: But it didn't take long for shit to hit the 207 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: proverbial fan. Because May twelfth is way late in the season, 208 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 1: the best time to leave on a westward trek was 209 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: early to mid April. This was pretty much common knowledge, 210 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 1: so shame on the Donner Party, right. Travelers relied on 211 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: seasonal grass and flowers to feed their cattle, and also 212 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: needed to avoid the rainy spring, which created crazy amounts 213 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 1: of mud. Are you a big planner when you travel? 214 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: Do you do you? Are you in the guide books? 215 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: Are you just kind of winging it? Like what's your style? Yeah? 216 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: I'm a planner. I'm a planner. The Internet made travel 217 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: worse because it used to be you went to a 218 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: city to explore it, and now if you arrive unprepared, 219 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: you feel as though you didn't explore it. Yeah, you 220 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, and so, but I like to 221 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 1: know before I go I agree. And also cell phones 222 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 1: have made travel really annoying because I found myself walking 223 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: around Florence like just staring at my map, like where 224 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: where am I going? And like scrolling trying to just 225 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 1: like orient myself as opposed to like, you know, twenty 226 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 1: years ago, you'd just be looking for landmarks and finding 227 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: your way around and just so much more in the space. 228 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: It's yeah, and it's like you the risk of that is, oh, 229 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 1: you didn't eat the right gelato. But the reward of that, 230 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: the reward of that is maybe a discovery or an 231 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: experience that you otherwise wouldn't have had. Yeah, hot take 232 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: John love it. I think the internet might be bad. 233 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:01,959 Speaker 1: I know, I know, it's yeah. I agree. Well, needless 234 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 1: to say, there was no internet back in the day, 235 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 1: so despite the late start, the Donner group was in 236 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: high spirits. Initially, the party made fine progress, traveling from 237 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: Missouri to Wyoming in about six weeks. For all you 238 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: coastal elites, that's over six hundred and fifty miles, which 239 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: is pretty impressive in wagons. Okay, now we're getting to 240 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: the part that you sort of knew a little bit 241 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: about or had an inkling of in early July, the 242 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: Donner party arrived in Fort Laramie, Wyoming. While the party rested, 243 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: they crossed paths with a man named Lansford Hastings, a 244 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 1: Westward Expansion supervan with a name that sounds kind of 245 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: super villainy. Hastings had big dreams of flooding California with 246 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: settlers to spark a bloodless revolution against the Mexican government casual. 247 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: He'd also written a guidebook promoting a shortcut through the 248 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: wa Such Mountains and the Great Salt Lake Desert, claiming 249 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: it would shave three hundred miles off the trip. Small catch. 250 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: He had never actually taken this shortcut, and in reality 251 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: it added one hundred and twenty five brutal miles. But 252 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: still in Laramie, the Donners took this terrible advice and 253 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: turned onto the now infamous Hastings cut off. What's the 254 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: worst advice you ever got from a stranger, John Lovett? 255 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 1: Was it the person who gave you that pad tie 256 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 1: on Air Force one? Or yeah, it was the night 257 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: before someone said you got to try the seafood special. 258 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: The Oyster's right out of the ocean, right out of 259 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: the Hudson. Yeah, oh right, Oh god, Hudson Oysters. That 260 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: would be it, all right? This so called shortcut cost 261 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: the Donner party two grueling weeks just to get through 262 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: the Wasatch Mountains, but at least the desert was next, 263 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: and Hastings had assured them it would only take two days, 264 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: so they packed accordingly, But in reality it took six days, 265 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: after which the families were exhausted, dehydrated, and severely undernourished. 266 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: You ever been screwed by a short cut? Yeah? Yes, 267 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 1: cliff Notes got me because the cliff goats would get 268 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: me off. In high school, they got me pretty bad 269 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: because the teachers caught wise. Look I'm a sucker for 270 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: a short cut. I am. I am. You tell me 271 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: that there's a better way. I'm gonna try it. I 272 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: really will, are you like Hastings would have gotten me? Yeah, honestly, 273 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: pretty compelling. Shave three hundred miles off this epic journey. 274 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: The one valuable thing about the Internet is that if 275 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: there was a Reddit forum in eighteen whatever hear this is, 276 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: it would have said do not do. It would be 277 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 1: under everybody our you know, Oregon r slash Oregon Trail. Hastings, 278 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: do not follow this is bad, don't believe him. Yeah, 279 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: there was a little bit more because you know, nobody, 280 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: how are you going to check? How are you gonna check? 281 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: There's nobody. You can't ask somebody in California when you're 282 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: in Wyoming if they took the Hastings cut off. Yeah, 283 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: and if he's got a really nice mustache, like you're 284 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: gonna trust him. Yeah. This is the era of the 285 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: snake oil salesman. Yeah. You know, maybe the internet's not 286 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 1: all bad. It's not all batter I'm coming back around 287 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: a little bit. I take creatine. How about that? That's 288 00:16:57,480 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 1: my snake oil. And I don't know why because a 289 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 1: very hus ski strong man on the Internet said it 290 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,119 Speaker 1: was good for your bones or something. Yeah, it's still 291 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: like knowing how much the Internet is trying to manipulate us. 292 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,439 Speaker 1: It's still amazing how much we allow ourselves to be 293 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:15,479 Speaker 1: manipulated or just sort of like don't catch it at first. 294 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 1: We're very dumb creatures. We're very primal John, That's it's 295 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: just who we are, all right. So by late September, 296 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: the Donner Party had made it to the Sierra Nevada Mountains, 297 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: just in time for that classic road trip phase where 298 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: the simmering tensions are so high, everyone's feeling one sarcastic 299 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: comment away from a complete freak out. Sure enough, October fifth, 300 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:41,640 Speaker 1: tempers flared along the Humboldt River when James Reid's oxen 301 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: got tangled with another wagon. How dare they? Words were exchanged, 302 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 1: and then blows. John Snyder, the driver of the Graves 303 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 1: family wagon, struck Reed in the head with the butt 304 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: of his whip. That's pretty badass. Margaret Reid tried to intervene. 305 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 1: She caught a blow from the butt of that whip. 306 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 1: That's when James Reid snapped. He pulled a knife and 307 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: fatally stabbed Snyder. So after the stabbing, some in the 308 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: group wanted to hang James Reid. He claimed self defense. 309 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: Tensions were high. One vocal member pushed for punishment of 310 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: some kind. The group compromised. Reid was banished, sent into 311 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 1: the wilderness alone with nothing but a horse. So, uh, John, 312 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: you've been voted off before, that's true. What does it 313 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 1: feel like? What do you think is going through James 314 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,439 Speaker 1: Reid's ahead? Do you think they handed him a menu 315 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: and let him choose whether he wanted a cheeseburger or 316 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 1: a pizza? No, to make you feel better. Probably not. 317 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 1: Probably is that what you got on Survivor? Yeah, you 318 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: walk off? Oh right, there's a little booby prize. Yeah yeah. 319 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: Well no, it's more like like it's more like, Okay, 320 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 1: you've been out there. You know, you're kind of like 321 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 1: still in shock. And then they're very sweet because they 322 00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 1: know you're you know, you're you're just sort of stunned 323 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: by what's happened. And then at some point they hand 324 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: you a menu and like, hey, you're you're out, but 325 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: you get to eat whatever you want. So you get 326 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 1: to eat, like, you know, you can have a burger 327 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: or a steak or a cheese or a pizza or 328 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: wings or whatever. So that's a that's a nice moment. 329 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 1: You get to have that food again, do you when 330 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 1: you're eating that meal of this just like the most 331 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: decadent junk food that's so delicious. At that point, are 332 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: you just like I would imagine you're in your mind 333 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 1: you're like, I think I just won. Like also they're 334 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:28,239 Speaker 1: the suckers. There's still so much you're still swirling. And 335 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: also you're not that hungry because you just haven't eaten 336 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: for days, so you eat like a little bit of it, 337 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 1: and you're you're already kind of starting to build the 338 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 1: story of what happened that you're gonna have to tell people. Oh, 339 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: that's what you're kind of working. You're already you're working 340 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: over you're working over what happened. And yeahs still fun though. 341 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:47,479 Speaker 1: So Reed had to leave his wife, Margaret and their 342 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 1: kids behind, but his daughter Virginia pulled off a stealthy 343 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: act of love. With help from their teamster, she snuck 344 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,160 Speaker 1: out at night and caught up with her dad, smuggling 345 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: him his rifle, some ammo and what little food she 346 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 1: could she could find. Meanwhile, the Donner party pushed forward, 347 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,360 Speaker 1: low on food, high on stress, and by Halloween they 348 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,399 Speaker 1: were just one hundred miles from their destination, which is 349 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: pretty pretty exciting. That's not like it sounds like a lot, 350 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 1: but like, given how far they'd come, this is like 351 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:19,680 Speaker 1: a big deal. They're getting close. And Virginia kept spotting 352 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: little notes her father left along the trail, as well 353 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,719 Speaker 1: as these little clusters of feathers from birds he had 354 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,440 Speaker 1: killed to eat, and he would leave these little symbols 355 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 1: kind of signs for his family to let them know 356 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: he was alive and ahead. Of them on the trail 357 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:38,879 Speaker 1: and doing okay. But then John, the snow hit, and 358 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: it hit hard, and we're talking five feet right out 359 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:44,959 Speaker 1: of the gate. Those little signs from Read to his 360 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: family stopped. The Donner party ground to a halt themselves. 361 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:54,479 Speaker 1: Provisions were dwindling, morale was basically toast. They were stuck. 362 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,400 Speaker 1: They're so close, they're so close close, and winter had 363 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 1: just begun. When is this? What is the date? Roughly 364 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: when this has happened a little bit after Halloween at 365 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 1: this point. Wow. So they also got unlucky because you 366 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: know they're late. They started late. That's a big snow. 367 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: That's a big snow to come come In November, the 368 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:18,120 Speaker 1: stranded families hunkered down around Trucky Lake, building makeshift cabins 369 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 1: that would later become Donner Lake in Today's for Today's cartographers, 370 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: building makeshift cabins and praying for a break in the weather. 371 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:31,159 Speaker 1: After eight straight days of relentless snow, they started to 372 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: suspect they might be in over their heads quite literally, 373 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:38,640 Speaker 1: because the snow is getting really deepy in it. That's 374 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 1: the heigh of the snow. They're in over their heads 375 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: physically and metaphorically. The motive metaphor being being in over 376 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:48,360 Speaker 1: your head. That's good. With that snow or water, that's good. 377 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: That's good storytelling right there. Yeah, it's really good. Desperate 378 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 1: for help, a group of ten men and five women 379 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: strapped together homemade snowshoes and set out on foot. The 380 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:58,919 Speaker 1: rest of the party gave them a name that sounds 381 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 1: kind of like a bad ass heavy metal band, the 382 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 1: Forlorn Hope. So the Forlorn Hope just sets off on 383 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: their on their their homemade snowshoes, and back at camp 384 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 1: things are really falling apart. Adults are getting delirious, kids 385 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,880 Speaker 1: were starving, and the cold was sinking in deep. One 386 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 1: by one, people started to die. Now, there are a 387 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: lot of myths that swirl around the dinner party, but 388 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: desperate times do call for desperate measures, John, Real Talk. 389 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: Do you think they actually ate each other? Yes? I do, 390 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,239 Speaker 1: I do. I mean, I don't. I don't. I mean, 391 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:42,440 Speaker 1: I guess it could just be lure. All right, Well, 392 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,399 Speaker 1: you're right, I don't know. They did. They did do it. 393 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 1: They did, they did. But it's also it's been sort 394 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: of like I think, spun up into you know, like, 395 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,360 Speaker 1: was it this violent cataclysm where they attacked each other 396 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 1: and ate well. According to historian Michael Wallace, they did 397 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:03,199 Speaker 1: eat each other, uh and he even interviewed descendants who 398 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:07,880 Speaker 1: confirmed it. But it wasn't quite the Schmorgas board. Yeah, 399 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: it wasn't. It wasn't quite the sort of like violent 400 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 1: like attacking each other in order to eat one another. 401 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: It was more analogous to like the alive story of 402 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 1: the the soccer people who died of natural cause, well, 403 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 1: you know, died of exposure. Sure they're they're eating became 404 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: fair game, Sure shall we say. One of my favorite 405 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:33,120 Speaker 1: Monty Python sketches of all time is like these. It's 406 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: a it's from one of their record one of one 407 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,959 Speaker 1: of their audio albums, and it's just you hear the 408 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 1: creaking of a lifeboat in the ocean, and they start 409 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: debating who looks more delicious, and it's so perfectly done. 410 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 1: He's like, well, he looks like he's got a gambileg. 411 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:55,360 Speaker 1: I'd rather have Richard, and they just start debating. I think, 412 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: I think it's a nice thing to do to say, hey, 413 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: go for it. Just wait till I'm dead. Yeah, don't 414 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,360 Speaker 1: kill me, wait till I'm dead. And then I would 415 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: just say, you know, wings and drumsticks first. Yeah, sure, 416 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: I think that's fair. That's honestly, that's a fair I 417 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: would honor that. If you and I were in this 418 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: situation and you said that to me, I'd be like, 419 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: fair totally. As you as you turn into the road 420 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: runner and you and you picture me and you your 421 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: your your lips are watering, and then you look over 422 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 1: and I become a turkey, you know, with a head. 423 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:29,199 Speaker 1: I'm like, what's ed? What are you? What are you 424 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 1: looking at me? Weird for because you look like with 425 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: those little chef hats on your Yeah, I'm above your 426 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: exactly exactly. So according to Wallace, this uh, this historian, 427 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,400 Speaker 1: what's really accurate is that as the crew died, their 428 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 1: bodies were stored in snowbanks, becoming viable sources of nutrition. 429 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 1: Who precisely among the various party members participated in this 430 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:01,159 Speaker 1: cannibalism is not clear. That has not been uh that 431 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 1: has not been all verified. But because who's putting that 432 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: in their diary? You know you're gonna write, there's no 433 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: one's being like and then they ate a person and 434 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 1: I didn't, but everybody else did? I get that? That's 435 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 1: that's for you, Like you know, there's that there's that tradition, 436 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 1: there's that like French tradition where there's a tiny delicate 437 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 1: bird they eat whole. Do you know what I'm talking about. Yes, 438 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,360 Speaker 1: it's called the ordolan. It's called the ordolan, and and 439 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: and it's considered a such a garish thing to do 440 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: that you don't want God to see. So before you 441 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: eat the ortolan, you put a towel over your head 442 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 1: and you eat it under the towel with your hands 443 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:38,120 Speaker 1: because it's uh, God, your towels. Yeah, God can't see 444 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: under the towels. It's it's sort of an apology for 445 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 1: this depraved and decadent act. In the same way I 446 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: think people aren't writing in their journals that they just 447 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: ate the reads. I mean, you just can't. You can't 448 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 1: hold someone in that situation to like normal standards. No. 449 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,399 Speaker 1: Back on the other side of the mountains, across the 450 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: California border, the Forlorn Hope rescue crew was still doing 451 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: all right. Sure them had died along the way, but 452 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: the rest had made it, and at this point dozens 453 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:15,919 Speaker 1: still remain trapped at the Lake Camp back in California, 454 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: in a town called Yerba Buena, which is now known 455 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: as San Francisco. A crazy man was running around town 456 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: telling anyone who would listen about a party of travelers 457 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: trapped in the mountains. That man was James Reed. He 458 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: had survived after being banished and going ahead on the trail. 459 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:36,640 Speaker 1: He survived and he made it. And of course he's 460 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: now worried about his family and all of the other people, 461 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 1: and he's telling everyone he can about it. And amazingly, 462 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,199 Speaker 1: the remainder of the Forlorn Hope rescue group also arrived 463 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,479 Speaker 1: in town shortly after Reid. Together they managed to organize 464 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,160 Speaker 1: a relief effort for those who were still trapped, and 465 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 1: it worked. The first rescue crew traveled up over the 466 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: mountains and arrived at the camps on February nineteenth, eighteen 467 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 1: forty seven. They took twenty three of the starving party 468 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: members back with them in that first wave, including Margaret 469 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 1: and Virginia, back to California. James Reid was actually part 470 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: of the cruise caboose, reuniting with Margaret, Virginia, and most, 471 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: though not all, of his family. Because of the forty 472 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,199 Speaker 1: people who remained at the camp, this included two of 473 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 1: Reed's smaller children who weren't strong enough to make the 474 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:29,160 Speaker 1: journey easily. Margaret, of course fought leaving her kids behind 475 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: tooth and nail, but finally gave in for the greater good. 476 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 1: That's a tough one. Woof. I don't know. I don't 477 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: know if I'd be leaving my two youngest behind in 478 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 1: a group, and in a group that's already eaten people. 479 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: They're like starting to eat people right right right. Yeah, 480 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes the smaller pieces do fall to the 481 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: bottom of the bucket at KFC, but it's only a 482 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: matter of time before you get down there. You kinda 483 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 1: guess that you don't throw that like any little fried 484 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,680 Speaker 1: crispy thing at the bottom. Yeah, you come get there, 485 00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:59,360 Speaker 1: even if it's going in the fridge for a day 486 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 1: or two, you're gonna go get there. You're gonna get 487 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 1: your good Yeah, boy, oh boy, Hobbly. There were three 488 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: more waves of rescue attempts, but the snow made it 489 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 1: like truly impossible. They could only travel through the pass 490 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,679 Speaker 1: over the mountains with so many supplies and or people 491 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: in tow, having to carry many of the children or 492 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: adults who were too weak. More people perished during each 493 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: round of waiting, including George and Jacob Donner. George unfortunately 494 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 1: had injured his hand during the snow in which became 495 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 1: gangrenous and ultimately killed him. It is said that Jacob 496 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 1: died of starvation and was cannibalized. Here's a question I 497 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: have for you. Okay, okay, uh, you're in this circumstance. 498 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 1: All right, the plane has crashed the don You're in 499 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: the Donner. Let's see whatever you're inn accountabalistic situation. You 500 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 1: have spices, Okay, you have salt and pepper and garlic, 501 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: powdered onion powder, you have paprika. Okay, you are going 502 00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: to eat someone Italian seasoning. Is it more respectful to 503 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 1: eat this human flesh unseasoned so that the esthetic experience 504 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: matches the kind of moral experience, which is one of desperation, 505 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: Or is it more respectful to the deceased to flavor it, 506 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: cook it well, make it as tasty as possible so 507 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: that you get the best experience from this food. So, 508 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 1: from the comfort of our respective recording studios, I'm going 509 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: to say two things. One is I'm spicing the hell 510 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 1: out of it because it probably is so hard going 511 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: down right, it's gamy too. It's like, and I don't 512 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: even I don't know what human tastes like, but I 513 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: don't want to know. And even if it's even if 514 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 1: it's delicious, I don't want it to taste like what 515 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: it is, right, I don't want to just be thinking 516 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: about this. So I'm spicing the ever loving hell out 517 00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: of it. But number two, I also am British that 518 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: these debates did not happen on the day that they 519 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 1: got anything to make it go down easier. Yeah, you 520 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: use what're you use it? Of course you use it? 521 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: All right. There was a fourth and final rescue mission, 522 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: and when they arrived, they found only one last survivor, 523 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: reportedly found hovering over a cauldron of quote, cooked flesh 524 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 1: and discarded bones. Sure, so you're to your point. Maybe 525 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 1: there's probably some broth happening, and Jeb, it's just you. 526 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: It's just you, you know, yeah, God, you're just there 527 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 1: by yourself. You're not You're not a little bit of Yeah, 528 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 1: it's like you're doing a kind of cannibal version of 529 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,239 Speaker 1: like Mama number five, you know, like a little bit 530 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: of a little bit of Andrew, a little bit of Jessica. Oh, 531 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 1: you know, you're mixing, you know what I mean, you're 532 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: sort of make you're just you're you're kind of you. 533 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,959 Speaker 1: I do think like you've crossed some kind of moral 534 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,160 Speaker 1: plane and now you're alone in the woods. Like what 535 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 1: if when they showed up these weeks later, this person 536 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: had ballooned by like one hundred pounds. Oh wow, I'm 537 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: gonna do a little swan to go. Does anybody want 538 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: me to put any of this in to go? I'm 539 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 1: gonna make up, you know, like, I'm gonna make it nice. 540 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 1: This heats up. Here's the thing about human flesh. It reheats. Well, hmm, 541 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 1: that's the thing about it, right, Or you know some 542 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: food doesn't it doesn't travel. It makes a good jerky, Yeah, 543 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 1: that's yeah. Dry it out. Oh boy, this San Francisco. 544 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 1: This is making me sick. This whole thing. Really is 545 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 1: it making me hungry? It's fucked up about me. It's 546 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 1: so upsetting. I did this before lunch. Well. According to 547 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: Virginia Read, out of the eighty three people who were 548 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: snowed in at Donner Lake, only forty one survived, and 549 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: of the thirty one family members and teamsters of the 550 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:45,959 Speaker 1: original Donner Party family from Springfield. Only eighteen lived to 551 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: reach California. Historians dispute these exact numbers, but that's the neighborhood. 552 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: So the story of the Donner Party soon gained notoriety, 553 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 1: but it weirdly didn't really deter people from the Oregon Trail. 554 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 1: The younger daughter, Patty Reid, even wrote a letter to 555 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: her cousin in Illinois stating, don't let this letter dishearten anybody. 556 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 1: Never take no cutoffs and hurry along as fast as 557 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 1: you can, which I mean understatement of the century, or like, 558 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 1: still do what we did, just don't take no cutoffs. Yeah, 559 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: you know, no such thing as a free lunch. The 560 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: survivors of the Donner Party got up to various things 561 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: after their rescue and settled into California. Do you think 562 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: anyone like found success in California? I'm gonna say yes. 563 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: I'm sure somebody must have made something of themselves. A 564 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 1: guy named John Breen got rich in the California gold 565 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 1: rush of eighteen forty nine, taking home over twelve thousand 566 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: dollars in gold, which is almost five hundred thousand dollars 567 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: in today's money. So maybe karma is legit. I don't know. Also, 568 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: how old do you think the oldest survivor lived to? 569 00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 1: Oh well, I mean I think once you get through that, 570 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 1: ninety eighty nine. Wow? Good guess, John, Okay, really good? Yeah? 571 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: Okay yeah. John Breen's youngest sister, Isabella, who was one 572 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 1: year old at the start of the journey, was the 573 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 1: last living survivor of the Donner Party when she died 574 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty five at the age of eighty nine. 575 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 1: Whatever happened to Lanceford Hastings are scammy snake oil salesman 576 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: who convinced them to take the shortcut. Oh, I assume 577 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: he goes on to some other kind of scam gets 578 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,200 Speaker 1: He's the kind of guy that dies in a bar 579 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: fight or gets killed because he's stealing somebody's ghost. Yes, close, 580 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: all right. In fact, he later died while leading a 581 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 1: group of Confederates trying to colonize Brazil. Yeah, terrific, Yes, lancer, 582 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: the guy's got big. Yeah. He was a Confederate during 583 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: the Civil War and he actually opted to emigrate to Brazil, 584 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: pulling many disgruntled Southerners along with him, and that's where 585 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 1: he died. Well, you know, uh, too bad for him, 586 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: you know what not' I don't have a lot of 587 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 1: sympathy for him. No, The Donner Party kind of a 588 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,439 Speaker 1: grim reminder of how far people will go when they're 589 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 1: sold a dream, ignore the warning signs, and follow bad 590 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:19,319 Speaker 1: advice deep into the wilderness, which kind of feels like 591 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 1: America right now in a nutshell, a little bit desperate 592 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 1: people promised easy shortcuts left starving in the cold, while 593 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 1: the guy who gave them the map is nowhere to 594 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 1: be found. Thoughts, reflections, takeaways seaking the Donner Party, I 595 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,240 Speaker 1: would say, based on that analogy, it's also a reminder 596 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 1: that we shouldn't really stay put, that we got to 597 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 1: keep moving and nobody is coming, that we have to 598 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 1: save ourselves, I would say, soldier on. Yeah. Also eat 599 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 1: each other. Yeah. And I just think, don't start start 600 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: in the flank, start with the big muscles, all right. 601 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 1: Start start where you'd start at a restaurant, you know, 602 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 1: to get don't get cre native, don't get don't get cold, 603 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 1: don't get adventurous. Yeah. If picture that little place, Matt, 604 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 1: you get at the restaurant, at the steak place when 605 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 1: you were the cow on, it cuts the cow, It 606 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 1: cuts every Look at that group of meats, every single 607 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,280 Speaker 1: one of those basically has an equivalent on the human body. 608 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 1: There you are, right, so take take with you, ah, 609 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 1: Peter Luger's place, Matt is the is the lesson. By 610 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 1: the way, don't sleep on the cheeks. Yeah all right. 611 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,319 Speaker 1: I haven't been going to pilates all this time to 612 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 1: have you not eat my ash what? Okay? John? Love it. 613 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 1: This has been an utter delight. I'm so grateful to 614 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: have you on the show. Is there anything you can 615 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:42,840 Speaker 1: tell us about where we'll see you in the coming 616 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,799 Speaker 1: days months? What's what else is going on for you? Everybody? 617 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,919 Speaker 1: Do me a favor. Subscribe to pote of America. Love 618 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 1: it or leave it otherwise, you know, see on the 619 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: internet posting and posting. Keep up the great work. Thanks 620 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,360 Speaker 1: so much for being on, Jennings. So good to see you. 621 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 1: This is fun always Cheers. Snapho is a production of 622 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts and Snapfoo Media, a partnership between Film Nation 623 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: Entertainment and Pacific Electric Picture Company. Our post production studio 624 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 1: is Gilded Audio. Our executive producers are me Ed Helms, 625 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 1: Mike Falbo, Glenn Basner, Andy Kim Whitney, Donaldson, and Dylan Fagan. 626 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Alyssa Martino and Tory Smith. 627 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 1: Our video editor is Jared Smith. Technical direction and engineering 628 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,760 Speaker 1: from Nick Dooley. Our creative executive is Brett Harris. Logo 629 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 1: and branding by The Collected Works. Legal review from Dan Welsh, 630 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 1: Meghan Halson and Caroline Johnson. Special thanks to Isaac Dunham, 631 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 1: Adam Horn, Lane Klein, and everyone at iHeart Podcasts, but 632 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:49,399 Speaker 1: especially Will Pearson, Kerry Lieberman, Nikki Etour, Nathan Otowski and 633 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,919 Speaker 1: Alex Corral. While I have you, don't forget to pick 634 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,480 Speaker 1: up a copy of my book, Snafoo, The Definitive Guide 635 00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:00,359 Speaker 1: to History's Greatest screw Ups. It's available now from any 636 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 1: book retailer. Just go to SNAPO dashbook dot com. Thanks 637 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:07,840 Speaker 1: for listening, and see you next week.