Speaker 1: UM George flit uprising. You know, UH in Minneapolis, there
Speaker 1: were nurses union nurses who walked out the door UM
Speaker 1: to support UH. You know, people who were uh basically
Speaker 1: having an insurrection against like police violence in in Minneapolis
Speaker 1: when the when COVID pandemic hit off, year of everything
Speaker 1: going off, nurses and nurses were going out and confronting UH.
Speaker 1: Union nurses were going out and confronting anti mass protesters.
Speaker 1: Like I was literally getting screamed out by like some
Speaker 1: Looney Tunes doctor holding a banner that said nurses are dying.
Speaker 1: Go home with like twenty other union nurses. And we
Speaker 1: were the only people out there who are like together,
Speaker 1: who are you know, immediately impacted by this stuff? And UM,
Speaker 1: And I think it made a difference, Like I think
Speaker 1: it's important and so I think that UM. And there's
Speaker 1: some idea called social unionism. So if you get to
Speaker 1: the point where building a union and you're making progress,
Speaker 1: and you get to that point where you have a union,
Speaker 1: always be advocating for to the extent that you can
Speaker 1: that your union is engaged in the kind of UM,
Speaker 1: like connecting with your community around your workplace, figuring out
Speaker 1: the things that are impacting people's lives outside of unions,
Speaker 1: because I think that's another thing that um for a
Speaker 1: long time, unions just ignored or let atrophy because they
Speaker 1: didn't think it was their problem anymore. Was you know,
Speaker 1: mutual aid helped build the labor movement. You know, workers
Speaker 1: would get would literally like in West Virginia and Maitwan,
Speaker 1: Uh they had uh company police throwing people out of
Speaker 1: their apartments who are on strike, and the there were
Speaker 1: you know, all of a sudden, two thousand of your
Speaker 1: fellow workers showing up and throwing the police out of
Speaker 1: own and putting people's uh, you know, belongings back in
Speaker 1: their house or you know. And I believe we're getting
Speaker 1: back to that point where you know, teachers went on
Speaker 1: striking West Virginia and the union and the teachers did
Speaker 1: everything they could to support their students while they were out,
Speaker 1: because like I think there's this idea that a lot
Speaker 1: of union workers at this point are you know, everyone
Speaker 1: is like, you know, the American workforce is so desperate
Speaker 1: and so and they've had just been pushed around so
Speaker 1: much that you know, there was this idea for a
Speaker 1: time like in Wisconsin was or what was the Scott
Speaker 1: Walker consint uprising, wasn't it. I think it was like
Speaker 1: right around occupy It wasn't around there, And like there
Speaker 1: was this idea that's like, oh, you're a nurse, Oh
Speaker 1: you're a teacher, Like you should just be happy that
Speaker 1: your job has some kind of meaning to it, right,
Speaker 1: And it was a lot of like weird discourse around
Speaker 1: in the media and about like how dare these people?
Speaker 1: I think that they deserve anything. And the thing is
Speaker 1: is that how can you, like, as a nurse, how
Speaker 1: can I take care of my patients safely when I'm
Speaker 1: constantly having, um like, more and more work put on me, right,
Speaker 1: and that that immediately affects the people that I'm taken
Speaker 1: care of. So that when when we went on strike
Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen, it was around our safe staffing. Um
Speaker 1: and if I've seen management make decisions about staffing that
Speaker 1: kill people, and I've seen management make decisions that lead
Speaker 1: to my coworkers getting injured. Um I management made decisions
Speaker 1: that led to me getting COVID and messed me up
Speaker 1: for a year. And so when people in these kind
Speaker 1: of care worker roles, which I think has become a
Speaker 1: more prominent part of the US economy as people are
Speaker 1: getting older and they need more like care work, home
Speaker 1: care workers, nursing home workers, hospital workers. UM. Parents don't
Speaker 1: can't rely on family the way they used to to
Speaker 1: help take care kids. School has become like this really important,
Speaker 1: like uh institution for you know, working class survival. UM
Speaker 1: that you can't do those jobs as a worker if
Speaker 1: you don't have the resources. So like our our children
Speaker 1: were at the Chicago public schools and there that you know,
Speaker 1: the Chicago Teachers Union, which was taken over by the
Speaker 1: rank and file UM, I think in two thousand five
Speaker 1: or six by you know, a group of black women
Speaker 1: led by Karen Lewis. They set up a group called
Speaker 1: like a rank and file caucus called the Caucus of
Speaker 1: Rank and File Educators or Radical Educators. CORES might be
Speaker 1: messing on that, but it's called CORE. They went out
Speaker 1: on striking and as a you know, as just this
Speaker 1: was before my kids were old not to be in
Speaker 1: those schools. I was out there still taking them coffee
Speaker 1: and donuts, right because I knew that they're in there.
Speaker 1: Because things stuck. By the time my kids were old
Speaker 1: enough in nineteen for it to be a big thing,
Speaker 1: and the teachers when out striking Chicago. It had gotten
Speaker 1: so it's so bad that Chicago teachers like Chicago Public
Speaker 1: schools have the the lowest number of staff two students
Speaker 1: of any school system in Illinois. It's not even like
Speaker 1: half right and um, And it's funny because the state
Speaker 1: had been constantly trying to erode the power of the union.
Speaker 1: They're making Chicago teachers like pay their for their own
Speaker 1: retirement basically in a way that no other like workers
Speaker 1: have to. Um. They were making it so that Chicago
Speaker 1: teachers could only go on strike. Over of the teachers
Speaker 1: voted to go on strike. UM. So when So what
Speaker 1: that does is there's kind of like a a little
Speaker 1: bit of a flip where oh, we have to make
Speaker 1: of you know, people agree to go on strike. Well,
Speaker 1: let's organize so much that we get people to agree
Speaker 1: to go on strike, and then how powerful is our
Speaker 1: strikes our strikes going to be. We're literally like one
Speaker 1: of the things I do as a steward is I
Speaker 1: connect with all the different unions and at the University
Speaker 1: Chicago where I work, through a labor council, we were going,
Speaker 1: as you know, university workers to all the picket lines
Speaker 1: of the public schools around our neighborhood and we're bringing
Speaker 1: out coffee, bring out donuts, talking to people. Hey, I'm
Speaker 1: a nurse. We were on strike like six or like
Speaker 1: two or three months ago. What do you all need
Speaker 1: connecting with people? And then and then like at one
Speaker 1: point when the teachers were like, we're not getting what
Speaker 1: we want and this is LORI lightfoot is trash the area. UH,
Speaker 1: we helped organize this mass march where multiple marches of
Speaker 1: teachers and school workers and we're all out in the
Speaker 1: streets dodging cop cars until we have this big convergence.
Speaker 1: And it was really beautiful. Like we had like multiple
Speaker 1: people with like multiple banners and different columns, each one
Speaker 1: saying we will win, going through the streets of our neighborhood.
Speaker 1: UM and like messing up like the commercial traffic area
Speaker 1: in uh, in our very bougie neighborhood. UM. But that
Speaker 1: was happening all over the city. And it's just like
Speaker 1: when you see that happen, it's because we're literally in
Speaker 1: the support of the community for those strikes was so
Speaker 1: overwhelming because people knew that. It's like these people, aren't it.
Speaker 1: I mean, like, first off, it's a hard job there's
Speaker 1: no reason why anyone doing that job shouldn't have like
Speaker 1: a materially comfortable life. That's how stressful it is and
Speaker 1: how much work they do. Um and I really like,
Speaker 1: I really need to emphasize this enough. People. There's this
Speaker 1: whole thing was like, oh, teachers don't work over the summer, Like, oh,
Speaker 1: but no, no, Like their job sucks. They have to
Speaker 1: they have to deal with these kids all day. And
Speaker 1: the other thing is like, you know, the part of
Speaker 1: it that you don't see is they have to do
Speaker 1: all a lesson plans, They have to great all the stuff,
Speaker 1: have to do all this stuff like after the school
Speaker 1: day end, they have to do all the suff honestly
Speaker 1: all the time. This job is awful. It is extremely hard,
Speaker 1: and like they don't Yeah, the conditions are extremely bad.
Speaker 1: I'll never forget when I'll never forget when I ran
Speaker 1: into my seventh grade science teacher on the summer she
Speaker 1: was waiting tables at a local restaurant, you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: And so I think that there's this assumption that like
Speaker 1: that especially care workers get some sort of you can't
Speaker 1: you know, you can't cash in fulfillment, right or prestige
Speaker 1: or whatever that doesn't pay the rent, that doesn't put
Speaker 1: you know, groceries on your table um that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: And so, you know, I think we're beginning to see
Speaker 1: this thing resurgence. And it started with teachers and I
Speaker 1: know for and teachers and nurses have been out fighting
Speaker 1: like hell for the past like five years, and it's
Speaker 1: beginning to kind of like spark other kinds of organizing
Speaker 1: outside of outside of the care work areas. And a
Speaker 1: lot of this stuff was It's funny how it was
Speaker 1: kind of like predicted by occupy and like revolt of
Speaker 1: the carrying classes. Someone who wrote a really cool book
Speaker 1: that just came out, David Graeber, who was talking about
Speaker 1: like why is it that we're seeing all these people
Speaker 1: who are out in the streets like during occupy, who
Speaker 1: are like social workers and nurses and teachers and all
Speaker 1: this stuff. There There's something going on here, and I
Speaker 1: think that so you'll see places where organizing conditions are
Speaker 1: easier because the pressure on especially care workers right now
Speaker 1: is immense in a way that it isn't as immense
Speaker 1: other places. But look at for those like when you're
Speaker 1: thinking about unions and whether to do build a union
Speaker 1: at your workplace or do some sort of collective organized
Speaker 1: in your workplace? Do you have the dynamics where you
Speaker 1: guys are can the boss shut down your uh, your
Speaker 1: your workplace and move it like ten miles without completely
Speaker 1: destroying their like their business right? And so you know,
Speaker 1: we've seen strikes happen in grocery stores, um and uh
Speaker 1: Massachusetts there was a really like uh pretty well publicized
Speaker 1: grocery worker strike and apparently there was like internal documents
Speaker 1: got released to like shareholders about how that was like
Speaker 1: one of the most like it was like for a
Speaker 1: month in the winter or three weeks, and they said
Speaker 1: they lost like of customers refused across the picket line.
Speaker 1: I mean, and I think we're thinking it's like getting
Speaker 1: to the point where you can go on strike. It's
Speaker 1: a lot, it's a process, and it takes a lot
Speaker 1: of work, and I think that people underestimate what that
Speaker 1: looks like. Hence we see hashtag general strike things all
Speaker 1: the time. Um, but like when you get there, I
Speaker 1: think that we're at a point now where people have
Speaker 1: a lot more sympathy for workers, and workers have become
Speaker 1: more visible in a way that they weren't before, Like
Speaker 1: the essential workers over the past year and a half
Speaker 1: have been the only workers that sometimes people will see, right,
Speaker 1: so you'll see things also like you have you know,
Speaker 1: Amazonians United, which is a union that's organizing, but they're
Speaker 1: trying to organize something called a solidarity union. So they're
Speaker 1: not you know, at least the ones here in Chicago,
Speaker 1: and I think some of them in New York. And
Speaker 1: this may be changing. Things are always shifting around, but
Speaker 1: for a long for a while, through like the pandemic,
Speaker 1: they were organizing on a like in contrast to the
Speaker 1: best Summer uh Amazon campaign. Sorry, there was a a
Speaker 1: business union tried to organize a union in Alabama, Investment
Speaker 1: Alabama at an Amazon warehouse, and there was a lot
Speaker 1: of like media attention to that. Democratic politicians, we're paying
Speaker 1: attention to it, you know, Joe Biden said, I support
Speaker 1: the right of workers to choose to have the choice.
Speaker 1: Stabby union some really milk tast bullshit and a lot
Speaker 1: of celebrities showing up. And what wasn't happening was you
Speaker 1: weren't seeing a lot of evidence that the workers themselves
Speaker 1: were very excited about the union. And it turned out
Speaker 1: that that campaign failed. UM whereas workers at Amazonian's united
Speaker 1: up here like in Chicago, and granted it's a very
Speaker 1: different organizing environment in Illinois than it is in Alabama. Um,
Speaker 1: they haven't been focusing on getting contract. They've been focusing
Speaker 1: on getting work changes. Like they're like, we want to
Speaker 1: have water, like we need water breaks, and so they
Speaker 1: would they have these stand up meetings at the beginning
Speaker 1: of every shift, and they had coordinated where you have,
Speaker 1: you know, thirty of your coworkers all say we're not
Speaker 1: starting until we get water, and then management panics because
Speaker 1: they're not used to that kind of demand. They're used
Speaker 1: to We're going to have a campaign then we can
Speaker 1: you know, mess with votes and that sort of thing
Speaker 1: and make people afraid. Collective action overcomes fear, right, So
Speaker 1: when you have collective action, even through a regular like
Speaker 1: a more regular conventional union campaign, those collective actions are
Speaker 1: what leads to successful unions. So like, um, so, you know,
Speaker 1: they'd say, we aren't starting the shift until we get water,
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, a manager disappears and
Speaker 1: then comes back with palates full of water, right, and
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, people are like, I'm gonna have
Speaker 1: a drink water before I start like all together and
Speaker 1: then they go off and do their thing, and it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, things like that build the power of the
Speaker 1: union to the point where they shut down that warehouse.
Speaker 1: But then Amazonian United popped up in the three new
Speaker 1: warehouses that they set up in Chicago. So it's like
Speaker 1: when you build that kind of collective power and people
Speaker 1: feel like this is how you get things, then it's
Speaker 1: hard to repress. Right. It's one thing where like we
Speaker 1: lost an election, why did we even bother? It's another
Speaker 1: thing where like, no, we want like all this, like this, that,
Speaker 1: and the other thing like we got you know, like
Speaker 1: our regular schedules fixed, we got like water on our shifts.
Speaker 1: We got this. You know. That's what gets people into
Speaker 1: the mindset that they can change things. And I think
Speaker 1: this is the thing that a lot of people don't get.
Speaker 1: It's it's like, the difficult part isn't getting people to
Speaker 1: agree that things are sucked up at your workplace. Most
Speaker 1: people understand that things are sucked up in their workplace.
Speaker 1: Difficult part isn't saying that, like, well, this is a solution, right.
Speaker 1: The difficult part is getting people to understand that collective
Speaker 1: action is the only way to solve the problems right
Speaker 1: even within unionized workplaces, getting your coworkers to understand that
Speaker 1: if we don't do this as a collective, we will fail.
Speaker 1: And so like when there was a like the first
Speaker 1: successful private hospital union drive in North Carolina popped off early. UM.
Speaker 1: Throughout that campaign, they were constantly like demonstrations of collective power.
Speaker 1: We're gonna do a vigil. How many people are gonna
Speaker 1: show up to the visual We're gonna all walk around
Speaker 1: stickers saying like safe staffing, safe lives or like you know, UM,
Speaker 1: patients over profits. That sort of stuff and building that
Speaker 1: kind of collective power together is what gets you, UM,
Speaker 1: It's what gets you a successful like, that's what builds
Speaker 1: a union. Fundamentally, union is UM. There's the legal thing
Speaker 1: and then there's the real thing, and the real thing
Speaker 1: is only as powerful as people are willing to fight
Speaker 1: for and build that kind of collective power together. When
Speaker 1: nurses were on straight and I talked a lot about
Speaker 1: nurses because I know a lot about nurses, but like
Speaker 1: you know, or like you know in um in Iowa,
Speaker 1: when the John Deere strike happened, people were out on
Speaker 1: those picket lines and people were ready to get hit
Speaker 1: by cars to like stop scabs from coming like crossing
Speaker 1: the picket line. And if you're not willing to do
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. And I'm not saying that you
Speaker 1: need to put your body on the line for things,
Speaker 1: but you do need to be willing to draw outside
Speaker 1: the lines. Right, there's the law, and then there's what
Speaker 1: you can get people to do. And you will be
Speaker 1: surprised when people start moving. They move fast and they
Speaker 1: get really riled up like this, funk, this, this is
Speaker 1: what we're gonna do. And sometimes unions try and like
Speaker 1: bottle that energy up um or you know, if you're
Speaker 1: in a good union, you use that energy to fix things.
Speaker 1: So I think that's kind of where land on all
Speaker 1: this stuff. It's like be aware of like the pitfalls
Speaker 1: of what organizing at work means. Everyone has a right
Speaker 1: to organize at work everywhere in this country. If you
Speaker 1: get fired for like for organizing, you can fight that
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. Yeah, it is, it's federally protected,
Speaker 1: like it's this is this is a federal government thing.
Speaker 1: Like you know, this is this is this is what
Speaker 1: we got in exchange for everything else is like like
Speaker 1: this is you know, like this this is what we
Speaker 1: got in exchange of putting our guns down, is that like, yeah,
Speaker 1: the the the actual FEDS will be like, no, you
Speaker 1: can't do this. Yeah, I mean, and sometimes that doesn't
Speaker 1: sound like fold consolation and it doesn't always work. But
Speaker 1: and I guess this is the other thing is there
Speaker 1: are people who are like, this is how we're gonna,
Speaker 1: you know, we're gonna when socialism as everyone's in the union.
Speaker 1: And I guess, like my take on it is is
Speaker 1: this is how we build all the networks and get
Speaker 1: the skills and all the necessary things to be prepared
Speaker 1: to do bigger stuff down the road. So when we
Speaker 1: when workers are talking to each other across like you know,
Speaker 1: at when the Chicago when Chicago teachers went on strike,
Speaker 1: they didn't just go on strike as the teachers. They
Speaker 1: also talked to the They lined up their strike to
Speaker 1: go out at the same as education like the school
Speaker 1: workers who are in sc you and they went out
Speaker 1: at the same time, um in order to incre improve
Speaker 1: the power of the strike, because the more workers who
Speaker 1: are out, less able the bosses are to like like
Speaker 1: to undermine the boss either with people scabbing on each
Speaker 1: other or whatever. And I think it's just like and
Speaker 1: like that's the point of our labor council is Like
Speaker 1: when like the grad workers at Universe Chicago go on strike,
Speaker 1: we got teachers out or we got well, there were
Speaker 1: teachers from CTU out on those picket lines. There were
Speaker 1: nurses and a new on those picket lines, and we
Speaker 1: were doing everything we could to communicate to each other
Speaker 1: because like in my work, it doesn't matter that I'm
Speaker 1: a nurse and you're a secretary. We have the same boss,
Speaker 1: we have the same problems a lot of the times.
Speaker 1: And so I think people people want to do the thing,
Speaker 1: which is to all have the glorious general strike that
Speaker 1: like overthrows capitalism or whatever or fixes all the problems
Speaker 1: at your work. But you know, starting everyone forgets all
Speaker 1: the necessary intermediate steps to get to that point. And
Speaker 1: sometimes it means just get the union in the door
Speaker 1: in the first place, because like at a campaign I
Speaker 1: was a part of here in Chicago where my University
Speaker 1: Chicago bought a non union hospital that was out in
Speaker 1: the community. Just getting in there, they were able to
Speaker 1: expose like basically an entire hospital wide scheme of like
Speaker 1: racial racist like practices around raises and compensation and that
Speaker 1: is like that first step and then fixing that right
Speaker 1: because you don't want to have like white worse nurses
Speaker 1: making more than black nurses and black percent more than
Speaker 1: like did immigrant nurses like Filipino or like Mexican nurses.
Speaker 1: Get everyone on the same page so that you're fighting
Speaker 1: together instead of fighting each other. And you know, those
Speaker 1: are those first steps that you take. And then and
Speaker 1: then you start reaching out to people on other other
Speaker 1: workplaces or other work areas and build that kind of
Speaker 1: militant see across unions so that you can support each other.
Speaker 1: So maybe a secondary strike is illegal right now, but
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that you don't have you know, teamsters
Speaker 1: who won't cross the picket line, right you know, how
Speaker 1: do you go out and make it or you can
Speaker 1: build that solidarity so that like in Buffalo and the UM,
Speaker 1: the c w A nurses went on strike and they
Speaker 1: want pretty impressive things around staffing ratios. They literally had
Speaker 1: other unions going out and picketing board members of their
Speaker 1: hospitals businesses and like getting really really like aggressive with
Speaker 1: that sort of stuff. So I think that I think
Speaker 1: that people need to just big takeaway is it's the
Speaker 1: biggest barrier to any of this stuff is just getting
Speaker 1: people to believe that collective action is possible and they
Speaker 1: can get you wins, and then making sure that you
Speaker 1: take your time and be patient and understand that there's
Speaker 1: going to be losses in the grand scheme of things.
Speaker 1: Don't don't don't mistake what looks like a setback when
Speaker 1: it's actually a victory for like a victory, like for
Speaker 1: a real like a defeat and um, and talk with
Speaker 1: people like that's what they hate that, Like, bosses hate
Speaker 1: it when we're talking with each other and talk to
Speaker 1: people you're not comfortable with. That's the That's the other
Speaker 1: thing is that people are very nervous to talk to people.
Speaker 1: Like it's always funny when you run into people who
Speaker 1: are ra ra like unions, ra ra like socialism, YadA YadA, YadA,
Speaker 1: and they don't talk to their co workers, right, and
Speaker 1: your coworkers are the people you're gonna be around for
Speaker 1: maybe some years, and that's where you spend a huge
Speaker 1: chunk of your time and like, but you don't know
Speaker 1: what's going on, they're like, Oh, they're all hostile. They
Speaker 1: don't want to know anything, they don't want to do anything.
Speaker 1: Funny thing is is that oftentimes the most people who
Speaker 1: seem very skeptical and anti union can be flipped, and
Speaker 1: sometimes those people become the best, like the most dedicated
Speaker 1: people to the union. It also means that you're going
Speaker 1: to talk to people who disagree with Like there was
Speaker 1: a Trump dude who was on like the bargaining committee
Speaker 1: for like our last strike. He fucking loved that thing.
Speaker 1: He was like, we're going on strike, but you know,
Speaker 1: it's also a union full of black women, and he
Speaker 1: shut the funk up when you know, it wasn't like,
Speaker 1: you know, being racist and ship, but you know you're
Speaker 1: gonna be with those people. And part of the thing
Speaker 1: is is that it's about how we're all moving together
Speaker 1: rather than making sure everyone is on the same page
Speaker 1: for every single thing, because the biggest thing is the
Speaker 1: collective action and building that collective power, and hopefully the
Speaker 1: collective power is hopefully the collective power outweighs. It's if
Speaker 1: you stand firm on principles like anti racism and fighting
Speaker 1: against discrimination and misogyny that sort of thing, it actually
Speaker 1: builds the power of the union. I think that's the
Speaker 1: other things that people are like, oh, I don't you know,
Speaker 1: like you know, working class people are all racist or
Speaker 1: reactionary or whatever. So I'm going to do that And
Speaker 1: that's how I'm gonna get That's my inn. And it's like,
Speaker 1: I think there are a lot of people who like,
Speaker 1: they really don't like you. They don't like being around loud,
Speaker 1: racist assholes or people who you know, say slurs, like
Speaker 1: especially if it's like I mean, you can make the
Speaker 1: arguments like this is that's their way of dividing us.
Speaker 1: Our goal is to be together. And historically speaking, the
Speaker 1: one thing that's done the most too fight working class
Speaker 1: racism is union organizing. Ye. So, and I think also,
Speaker 1: like you know, in terms of like building something that's
Speaker 1: actually you know, durable and powerful on top of sort
Speaker 1: of just the division. I mean, you know, even when
Speaker 1: it becomes stuff like transphobia, right, it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: if if you can convince people to fight like first,
Speaker 1: like fight for the person next to them, right, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean this is this is the thing that people
Speaker 1: like said a lot during the Dween the Brainy campaign.
Speaker 1: But it was like, you know, if people like, yeah,
Speaker 1: like if you can get someone to uh fight like
Speaker 1: fight for the person next to you in a concrete
Speaker 1: way in the work in a way that's actually real
Speaker 1: for something that doesn't directly affect them. You think, you
Speaker 1: know a A, it's just like the amount of power
Speaker 1: that you've built there is incredible. And then be also, Okay,
Speaker 1: I forgot where I was going with that, Daniel, please
Speaker 1: cut that. Hold on, hold on, I can kind of
Speaker 1: build off. Let me just say this, My personal experience
Speaker 1: is that queer women run the labor movement and that
Speaker 1: like and that if you think that people who have
Speaker 1: been bullied from the day they like stepped into like
Speaker 1: a into a kindergarten aren't going to be the people
Speaker 1: who are most equipped to fight bullshit, bullying from a
Speaker 1: boss or injustice or bullshit you're fucking like, like, just
Speaker 1: get the funk out because you haven't been in a
Speaker 1: union and you don't know what you know. I mean,
Speaker 1: you like the like people. Unions are at their best
Speaker 1: when they incorporate, you know, all, like when they are
Speaker 1: fighting for everybody, because what a boss can get away
Speaker 1: with with the weakest person, that's what they'll do to
Speaker 1: all of us if they get the chance. And so
Speaker 1: I think that there's this idea that's like, oh, we're
Speaker 1: going to set we're not going to we're going to
Speaker 1: ignore this or that sort of thing. It's like, you know,
Speaker 1: that's when people like, you know, people will turn away
Speaker 1: from unions as they feel like they're not being listened
Speaker 1: to or taken seriously. And you don't know what people's
Speaker 1: like identities are just because you see how they look.
Speaker 1: And so I think that it's real important for us
Speaker 1: to understand that if we're going to fight these fights,
Speaker 1: we need to do so with the understanding that it's everybody,
Speaker 1: and that the working class is a giant, multi racial
Speaker 1: conglomeration of every identity in this country. Um, and that
Speaker 1: the more marginal your identity is, the more useful having
Speaker 1: a union is to like solving your problems. Like I said,
Speaker 1: like racist racist compensation practices, there was no way that
Speaker 1: was going to get fixed, Like it wasn't even uncovered.
Speaker 1: People didn't understand it was happening in till like the
Speaker 1: union got in. Doesn't mean there are other ways to
Speaker 1: fix things, but it's one of the one of the
Speaker 1: most powerful ways to fix things. I think that people
Speaker 1: just like don't understand because they don't have experience. Because
Speaker 1: they don't have an experience, they end up with they
Speaker 1: end up with misconceptions about what they're going to get
Speaker 1: into and then they get disappointed. And I think the reality,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that the reality is not as
Speaker 1: bad as sometimes it seems. But also you gotta go
Speaker 1: into all this ship with open eyes. Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: think that there's and that's the other thing one of
Speaker 1: the fun things. Maybe this will make it to the podcast.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but um, one of the fun things
Speaker 1: is always like hanging out with like if you like
Speaker 1: every workplace has like its lefties just about and like
Speaker 1: hanging out with the lefties who just can't get their
Speaker 1: brains wrapped around the ship that you need to have
Speaker 1: a union. I think that there's like this idea that's like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna talk to my friend. They're like they're like
Speaker 1: they say they're a communists, so that the and then
Speaker 1: then all those people do not always but they're don't.
Speaker 1: They're sitting there, it's like talking a bunch of shit
Speaker 1: about like the union. They're a bunch of sellouts is
Speaker 1: or that, and it's like literally it's the only thing
Speaker 1: you're gonna do to get your like to fix the problem.
Speaker 1: And you're just like, we're just trying to get this
Speaker 1: problem fixed. Can we just set aside what you think
Speaker 1: needs to happen like that you guys talked about it.
Speaker 1: You're like Spartacus leak meeting or whatever, like, oh, this
Speaker 1: isn't a real strike, Like we're not going out until
Speaker 1: like for like you know, three months. And it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like the sort of thing where um
Speaker 1: sometimes or oftentimes, and I think it's because a lot
Speaker 1: of people kind of pick up their politics almost like
Speaker 1: an aesthetic as opposed to like a thing that like
Speaker 1: is about like fixing the problems in their lives. And
Speaker 1: sometimes even I'm like, you know, like this is the
Speaker 1: problem that I face is like like shit is real,
Speaker 1: like a lot of people, and you can sit there
Speaker 1: and talk about this or that, and like you're you know,
Speaker 1: you think that things. You know, you've got this perfect
Speaker 1: ideal vision of what things should be, and then you've
Speaker 1: got this kind of imperfect thing in front of you
Speaker 1: that is, even though it's imperfect, it's basically what you've got.
Speaker 1: And so it's like you've got to kind of you've
Speaker 1: got to work with what you have and fix it
Speaker 1: up and make it the best that you think it
Speaker 1: can be um, but also understand because it's an organization
Speaker 1: full of people that it's not going to be perfect
Speaker 1: every time. And yeah, maybe your union is going to
Speaker 1: do some liberal ship you know, and you're gonna and
Speaker 1: that's going to annoy you. But you know, like, um,
Speaker 1: those people are still going to show up on the
Speaker 1: picket line if you're like, if you're organized and you're
Speaker 1: good and like, you know, that's it's not the end
Speaker 1: of the world that your union isn't perfect, um, but
Speaker 1: you've got to do everything you can to do your
Speaker 1: best to make it better because if you don't, then
Speaker 1: then liberals will do whatever they're gonna do or conservatives
Speaker 1: will do whatever they're gonna do, and then they will
Speaker 1: like furtter away this thing. Like you can destroy a
Speaker 1: union if you aren't engaged. Like a union can be
Speaker 1: destroyed by people who think that you know, they're just
Speaker 1: like I just want to get my rays and like
Speaker 1: go home, and like, you know, if people's main concern
Speaker 1: is like their healthcare or like you know, that hour
Speaker 1: of prep time before they start their shift or whatever
Speaker 1: should you know, start their school day or whatever. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, a union can like dissolve out from underneath
Speaker 1: you and people are like, why is no one showing
Speaker 1: up to this thing? It's because you didn't talk to
Speaker 1: people and find out what it is. I think that's
Speaker 1: the other thing is like listen, Like there's this idea
Speaker 1: that you're gonna get up and give a big speech
Speaker 1: and get everyone really excited about your about like being
Speaker 1: in a union. But the main thing is listening to
Speaker 1: people and listening to people who are critics. You know,
Speaker 1: your coworkers who have complaints aren't like people that you
Speaker 1: should ignore. Those are people who need to listen to
Speaker 1: because those are people who they've got I mean, everyone's
Speaker 1: got legitimate problems with how you know work is happening.
Speaker 1: And like just because someone's like, you know, union is
Speaker 1: you know trash, Like then find out why they think
Speaker 1: it's trash and then try and be like I want
Speaker 1: to try and fix out what can we do to
Speaker 1: fix it together? That sort of thing. I remember when
Speaker 1: when I was working, So I worked at like maintenance
Speaker 1: and a county facility for a while, and you know,
Speaker 1: so I was like a like I was like I
Speaker 1: was like a summer higher basically, and so we we
Speaker 1: weren't in the union, but like everyone we were working
Speaker 1: for was in the union, and they all like, you know,
Speaker 1: these are old ex construction worker guys and you know,
Speaker 1: like they're in the union. But like I remember that
Speaker 1: we show these conversations that were like, okay, so we
Speaker 1: have a union meeting this week, just like do you
Speaker 1: want to be the person who tries to talk about
Speaker 1: raising wages? And it was like everyone was just like no.
Speaker 1: And you know, people, you know, like these guys are
Speaker 1: like very right wing and they were just sort of
Speaker 1: like piste off all the time. But it was interesting
Speaker 1: because the thing they were piste off all the time
Speaker 1: about was that, like, you know, their union didn't do
Speaker 1: anything like the union like they they they're they they
Speaker 1: they they they were. They were basically constantly annoyed that
Speaker 1: like the union didn't like the the the union wasn't
Speaker 1: fighting for pay raises, uson wasn't sort of fighting. And
Speaker 1: I think that was, you know, an example of how
Speaker 1: this stuff sort of just fails if if people aren't
Speaker 1: like if people don't feel like they can actually do
Speaker 1: something like itself. I mean, and they call it service unionism.
Speaker 1: There's this idea that like um or like like that
Speaker 1: a business union's job is to kind of serve you
Speaker 1: and you kind of like they do all the work.
Speaker 1: Like one of the complaints that some people who are
Speaker 1: not big fans of our union and our hospital is
Speaker 1: that like, oh, well, other other unions have lawyers negotiate
Speaker 1: the contract for you. And when we negotiate, we have
Speaker 1: a room full of nurses who are doing the who
Speaker 1: are doing the negotiations, and the goal is to have
Speaker 1: it be as transparent as possible. And like the idea
Speaker 1: that you're going to hand over negotiate sations to a
Speaker 1: lawyer and somehow get a better deal than than a
Speaker 1: room full of of the actual workers. And it's funny
Speaker 1: because we have our bargaining team and then like will
Speaker 1: periodically do something called open bargaining because it's the thing
Speaker 1: that bosses hate. It's like they want to make a
Speaker 1: deal like with a door shut right, um, But there's
Speaker 1: no reason why a union has to do that. Like,
Speaker 1: you can invite whoever you want to your bargaining. You
Speaker 1: can invite community members to your bargaining if you feel
Speaker 1: like you're man it could because management behind closed doors
Speaker 1: will say all kinds of things, and you know they'll
Speaker 1: they'll trash talk everyone involved and they'll you know, and
Speaker 1: they will make absurd demands about you know, it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: you're all gonna take a pay cut you know on
Speaker 1: this contract, that sort of thing, and they hate it.
Speaker 1: They absolutely hate it when like workers actually show up
Speaker 1: to these things. And so, um, I think that understanding that, Like,
Speaker 1: I think there's this idea that like some people are
Speaker 1: big on like we have to be kind of like
Speaker 1: secretive to like get the best deal, and like we
Speaker 1: shouldn't be like we shouldn't be transparent with everyone about
Speaker 1: what's going on because that's how like because then they'll
Speaker 1: figure out some way to counter us. But in my experience,
Speaker 1: my understanding is that the more transparent your union is,
Speaker 1: the more involved people get, and the more able people are,
Speaker 1: the more willing people are to put their time and
Speaker 1: energy into it. Because that's what comes down to, is
Speaker 1: like people out to like everyone's working and busy and
Speaker 1: their life life is hard and sucks, and so like
Speaker 1: do you have time to dedicate to show up to
Speaker 1: like talk to like if you why would you go
Speaker 1: to a union meeting if when you raise the concern
Speaker 1: like we want higher wages and like the union like
Speaker 1: staffer doesn't care if you get higher wages, because they're
Speaker 1: like while we're getting our union dudes, and like what
Speaker 1: what then do we care? Right, that's like huge problem.
Speaker 1: And the part of the thing is that those problems
Speaker 1: don't get solved if they if they exist, because they
Speaker 1: that definitely exists in some mu and a lot of unions,
Speaker 1: more unions than uh than not um if the workers
Speaker 1: don't get organized together. Like we just saw an election
Speaker 1: within the Teamsters International where uh the halfa uh Jimmy
Speaker 1: Haffa Jr. One of the half a kids was like
Speaker 1: president of the union and was this like not doing
Speaker 1: a great job and um, and like there was a
Speaker 1: ranking file like push to get that guy uh unelected,
Speaker 1: you know, and put it replaced with a rank and
Speaker 1: file worker who wants to put actual time and resources
Speaker 1: into organizing. You know. Like there's nothing sadder than a
Speaker 1: than like watching a union campaign failed because the union
Speaker 1: clearly is phoning it in, Like that's happened. I've seen
Speaker 1: it happen, not inside my union, but in other unions
Speaker 1: and uh and I mean like at my workplace, there's
Speaker 1: several unions and I've seen I've seen a failed campaign
Speaker 1: and it's like obvious, like there's you know, I'm not
Speaker 1: I don't co sign everything that someone like Jay mccavalary.
Speaker 1: I think that's altay share McCay bleary has to say.
Speaker 1: She wrote like no shortcuts. Um, I don't sign off
Speaker 1: on everything she has to say, but she has some
Speaker 1: really insightful things. It's like if you're not organizing to win,
Speaker 1: like you'll fail, and like you have to take this
Speaker 1: so seriously. And that's where like I'll say that, like,
Speaker 1: if you've got a choice between I'm gonna put time
Speaker 1: into a political political campaign versus a union campaign, You're
Speaker 1: going to get way more bang for your buck. You're
Speaker 1: gonna get so much more experience. You're gonna get like
Speaker 1: a durable organization that's going to be around for years
Speaker 1: if you put that time into a union campaign. Because like,
Speaker 1: imagine winning an election, right, um, except the politician you're
Speaker 1: running against is the incumbent, and they can um basically
Speaker 1: drag every one of their constituents into like a meeting
Speaker 1: and tell them how awful you are all the time,
Speaker 1: and lie and say whatever they want, and then they can,
Speaker 1: you know, do all kinds of tricks to like basically
Speaker 1: dismantle your campaign. So I guess, like the thing that
Speaker 1: I would say is that like if you if you
Speaker 1: do it the right way and you actually win one
Speaker 1: of those campaigns, you're going to come out way ahead
Speaker 1: and sort of understanding, like you have to talk to people,
Speaker 1: you have to be super organized, you have to know
Speaker 1: what people's issues are in their different targeting units. UM.
Speaker 1: You have to find people like part of like it's
Speaker 1: successful campaigns. I've been part of literally going on a
Speaker 1: search to go find like the people that need to
Speaker 1: be like signing cards and stuff. And you just have
Speaker 1: to be a very good listener, ready to talk and
Speaker 1: listen and hear what people have to say. Um, and
Speaker 1: then turn that um information into knowledge, knowledge and power
Speaker 1: um and UM. I think that, uh, if you pull
Speaker 1: it off, you have done something substantially harder than say
Speaker 1: like winning a school board election or something like that.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's it really is. It's like taking
Speaker 1: like those kind of skills that you would use to
Speaker 1: like win some sort of small municipal election, and it's
Speaker 1: like exponentially more hard because the rules are just so
Speaker 1: tilted against you winning. So if you are serious about it,
Speaker 1: if you're serious about changing the world, if you can't
Speaker 1: like someone. Yeah, I think Murray Bucksen once said, if
Speaker 1: you can't run for dog catcher, you probably shouldn't be
Speaker 1: talking about revolution, you know, But I think that probably
Speaker 1: more you know, more appropriate to be, Like, if you
Speaker 1: can't win a union election, you probably shouldn't be talking
Speaker 1: about revolution because even if you want to do all
Speaker 1: the things, you need to have the ability, the skills,
Speaker 1: the ability to mediate conflict, getting everyone on board, to
Speaker 1: do the collective action that like you would need to
Speaker 1: do to successfully kind of like carry out like you know,
Speaker 1: it's one thing to have the grand insurrection, it's the
Speaker 1: other thing to carry it forward and keep hering it
Speaker 1: to the point where you're over the line you've completely
Speaker 1: changed the world, right, So, and I think that and
Speaker 1: so I just think that like UM and I think
Speaker 1: that's similar things go with like you know, tenant organizing,
Speaker 1: community organizing. There's various types of organizing that use those
Speaker 1: similar skills that you get in like a union campaign, UM.
Speaker 1: And it's just a very different type of UM politics
Speaker 1: and organization and skills that you would get from you know,
Speaker 1: showing up for your local justice dem and you know,
Speaker 1: like knocking on the doors of strangers, you'll never you
Speaker 1: may never speak to you again. You know, when you're
Speaker 1: talking with your coworkers, those your coworkers are going to
Speaker 1: be there until you're you know, you retire or you're
Speaker 1: fired or you quit. So anyway, that's I guess that's
Speaker 1: another good takeaway I think from all this. So one
Speaker 1: thing I wanted to make sure to get to is,
Speaker 1: so I think there's a lot of people who are
Speaker 1: listening to this who working out non union workplaces and
Speaker 1: want to try to start this, and I wanted to
Speaker 1: know what would be your recommendations for them, you know, how,
Speaker 1: how how do you start this process? What does this
Speaker 1: look like? In what kinds of conversations should you be
Speaker 1: having with your coworkers? Yeah, for sure. So, um, I
Speaker 1: think one of the first things that I think a
Speaker 1: lot of people, a lot of people don't understand is
Speaker 1: that there's an amount of risk and stuff too organizing,
Speaker 1: and that you're like, first off, like you should be
Speaker 1: chill and like not like running around telling everyone you
Speaker 1: want a union because that's a great way to lose
Speaker 1: your job. Um. I think the thing is is that
Speaker 1: you build relationships and find out what's happening, like just
Speaker 1: like you know, take from your experience and figure out
Speaker 1: what's like in uh, like, man, it really sucks, like
Speaker 1: I got like I got screwed o here on my
Speaker 1: vacation requests, or like I you know, man, are raises
Speaker 1: were really shitty this year And I heard like you know,
Speaker 1: boss talking about like how much like like they've made
Speaker 1: so much money that sort of thing. Um. So I
Speaker 1: think that it comes down to you have to be
Speaker 1: It's kind of like a combination of like like an
Speaker 1: investigative reporter and like someone who is just really good
Speaker 1: at like talking to people and just kind of like
Speaker 1: understanding what's making them tick and understanding also that maybe
Speaker 1: you're not the person who's going to get everyone on board,
Speaker 1: but that finding other people who every Like I think
Speaker 1: the big thing is like who's like the most respected
Speaker 1: person on like in your work area that sort of thing,
Speaker 1: who like they know that the unit or they know
Speaker 1: the work area, they've been there the longest, they have
Speaker 1: like the most experience. People look up to them. There
Speaker 1: are the people who train other people that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: Those are the people who everyone looks too. When it
Speaker 1: comes down to these sorts of things, and you know,
Speaker 1: just you don't have to be friends with everybody, but
Speaker 1: like doing it's I think it's really good to just,
Speaker 1: like two, be open to listening to everybody that you
Speaker 1: work with and finding out what it is that's really
Speaker 1: going on. Yes, I've noticed like in a lot of
Speaker 1: places that I've worked, like the bosses often don't really
Speaker 1: know what's going on either, like they and I think
Speaker 1: that that that's something they can give you. If you
Speaker 1: understand how the process works and who's doing what and
Speaker 1: what people like need, that gives you like a big
Speaker 1: advantage over the bosses who just have no idea what's
Speaker 1: going on, which I think, Yeah, I think it's very
Speaker 1: it's very normal for bosses to really not know what's happening,
Speaker 1: and there's always someone who does, like figuring out the
Speaker 1: people who really know how things work are like those
Speaker 1: are like the those are the people who, um, you
Speaker 1: want to be talking with and figuring out like where
Speaker 1: they kind of stand on things, and um, you know,
Speaker 1: I think like the first step is like just having
Speaker 1: good relationships and people trusting you and you know, you know,
Speaker 1: if you know, Like, I don't think everyone needs to
Speaker 1: be a superstar workers sort of thing to be a
Speaker 1: good union organizer. But like they always say, it's like
Speaker 1: people who have the most problems oftentimes are people that
Speaker 1: are don't make great organizers because people don't see them
Speaker 1: as people to follow. But um um, but I think
Speaker 1: that it's important to just like talk with your to
Speaker 1: like just figure out what's going on first. That's your
Speaker 1: first step. Figure out what's going on? What are the
Speaker 1: things I mean? And you can come around together in
Speaker 1: you know, and like and how do you get people
Speaker 1: outside of the workplace? So you talk like how do you,
Speaker 1: like do you have like a group chat or signal
Speaker 1: chat or like a what to app chat or Facebook group?
Speaker 1: And where do you just like start kind of like
Speaker 1: and you know, be very care be careful about who's involved,
Speaker 1: and just kind of like low key to like start
Speaker 1: talking with folks and identifying to people who, um, who
Speaker 1: are outside of your work area, who know people Like
Speaker 1: sometimes it's you know, you'll talk to people and they're like,
Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about a union, but you'll
Speaker 1: be like, do you know anyone who cares? Who who
Speaker 1: has said anything about unions before? And so talking to
Speaker 1: people to find out who they know, Like these are
Speaker 1: all this kind of like crucial first steps to like organizing.
Speaker 1: And I think the thing is is that, like there
Speaker 1: have been times where you'll have a non union workplace
Speaker 1: where if the people in a particular area of of
Speaker 1: like a of like a hospital or like a workplace
Speaker 1: or whatever, we'll do some collective thing that gets some
Speaker 1: sort of results. So I think it's always like it's like,
Speaker 1: let's get people to sign off on a petition about
Speaker 1: like you know, like if of your coworkers are unhappy
Speaker 1: with like races or something like that. Like the more
Speaker 1: people that are involved in those first steps, the more
Speaker 1: likely it is that it won't result in retaliation and
Speaker 1: like you'll end up getting some sort of victory. Um.
Speaker 1: So I guess like the thing that I would say
Speaker 1: is just like be be ready for like people to
Speaker 1: look at greet you with skepticism because like it's it's hard,
Speaker 1: it's a hard thing to do, and always just be
Speaker 1: finding out what is bothering people and then look at
Speaker 1: little things that you can do to kind of like
Speaker 1: flex power, like to like collectively flex your power. And um,
Speaker 1: it can be as small as like everyone bringing up
Speaker 1: the same issue at like a work meeting, right like
Speaker 1: if you and it could be like, hey, let's talk
Speaker 1: about this is this work meeting, this is and if
Speaker 1: we all say something together like, we're going to be fine. Right. UM,
Speaker 1: So like starting with those first steps, I think it's
Speaker 1: the first like thing, Like the first thing is know
Speaker 1: what's going on, build relationships, be a trustworthy person, Like
Speaker 1: you can't be like the unit gossip or the the
Speaker 1: work area gossip that like knows that's in everyone's business
Speaker 1: or stirring up stuff and be successful at this UM.
Speaker 1: But if you are, you know, if you're someone that
Speaker 1: people like trust or look to or you know, like
Speaker 1: a person that people are like they help solve our problems,
Speaker 1: those are the people who I mean, you're going to
Speaker 1: be well set to begin to kind of take the
Speaker 1: steps on that and then you know as you kind
Speaker 1: of build those kind of like build that organization step
Speaker 1: by step. No, no union UM is going to invest
Speaker 1: the time in a union campaign if it's just you
Speaker 1: and like to other people like you need like you
Speaker 1: need to get a room. They're always say like, well,
Speaker 1: if you get a room full of people together, I'm
Speaker 1: willing to talk to them. And that's kind of the thing.
Speaker 1: And you know, zoom and stuff has actually made that
Speaker 1: a little bit easier UM, which in some ways can
Speaker 1: be a weakness because you end up with like it's
Speaker 1: a lot less commitment to show up to a zoom
Speaker 1: meeting that it is to UM to show up at
Speaker 1: like a bar or a place after work UM or
Speaker 1: a church or wherever it's like a good like like
Speaker 1: neutral safe place that people feel like they can be
Speaker 1: honest with each other about what's going on. UM. But
Speaker 1: at the same time, just like being the more the
Speaker 1: the more people you get on board with the thing,
Speaker 1: the more likely that it will succeed. You'll attract support
Speaker 1: from like an actual union that m is able to
Speaker 1: help you if you decide that that's how you want
Speaker 1: to do it, or if that makes sense in a
Speaker 1: legal context. And so I just like always like start small,
Speaker 1: figure out the small things, be willing to do like
Speaker 1: collective action to get little small victories. And that's a
Speaker 1: great way to get started, I think, and then like
Speaker 1: really do like sleuthing and research, like figure about how
Speaker 1: things actually work. UM. That's like, you know, that was
Speaker 1: the problem with the best amerket campaign down in uh
Speaker 1: down in Alabama with those Amazon workers is they didn't
Speaker 1: know how many people worked at that facility, and then
Speaker 1: all of a sudden they're like, oh, yeah, we're going
Speaker 1: to include like an extra thousand people in this vote,
Speaker 1: you know, like six weeks out, and you know, like
Speaker 1: I don't want to I don't want to take a
Speaker 1: dump on the people who did that. But like, if
Speaker 1: you don't know that there's like another thousand people, or
Speaker 1: you don't have like everyone on board, you're not going
Speaker 1: to succeed. So no, everything you can as you're going
Speaker 1: in and do everything you can to find out things
Speaker 1: or make buddies with the friends, but our buddies of
Speaker 1: the people who are gonna you know, know these things
Speaker 1: and you know, and then support each other, like it
Speaker 1: means showing up when like someone Sometimes what we do
Speaker 1: during these campaigns is someone will will have the contact
Speaker 1: for someone who's interested, and then your job is to
Speaker 1: go and find that person where they work and talk
Speaker 1: with them, and then talk with them while they talk
Speaker 1: with their coworkers, or back up them while they're talking
Speaker 1: to the co workers, because they trust their their coworkers,
Speaker 1: trust their coworker. You know, you're a random stranger, you know,
Speaker 1: And then like, don't be afraid to say I don't know,
Speaker 1: but I will find out. Right, there's like this, there's
Speaker 1: this pressure I think to like have all the answers
Speaker 1: to like whatever people's questions are. And I think that
Speaker 1: it's like, um, I think that it's like, I think
Speaker 1: that it's important to be honest when you don't understand,
Speaker 1: but then do the work of figuring out the answers
Speaker 1: for people. Um. And I think people respect that. And
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of people who are vocally against
Speaker 1: these sorts of things up front, it's because they don't know.
Speaker 1: And if you you know, you're like, no, we've got
Speaker 1: a right to do this, or like, you know, the
Speaker 1: the you know, a management will say things like managion,
Speaker 1: it will say things like oh you will, um, you know,
Speaker 1: the union will get in between our relationship with you know,
Speaker 1: with you and us, right, And the point is is
Speaker 1: that like, well, the union is us where the cod
Speaker 1: where the people doing it? Like everyone running. You can't
Speaker 1: run a union if you don't have a bunch of
Speaker 1: people involved from the workplace. And it's like and making
Speaker 1: sure that the people who are um, those people who
Speaker 1: end up being kind of like spokespersons for everyone else
Speaker 1: are people that folks trust and they have like a
Speaker 1: good like grasp of what everyone wants and yeah, so yeah,
Speaker 1: and then like you know, don't get bogged down in
Speaker 1: the legal ship. Like you know, collective action really is
Speaker 1: like your most powerful tool, um all the other kind
Speaker 1: of like the grievances and that's some stuff. It's important
Speaker 1: and you can't let it go. But it's also like
Speaker 1: it's designed to kind of grind people down. So um,
Speaker 1: you know, the more collective action you take, like the
Speaker 1: more likely it is that you're going to be successful
Speaker 1: and keep people engaged and excited. Yeah, going back to
Speaker 1: what you were saying earlier, this might mind out being
Speaker 1: last episode depending on where this breaksdown time wise, But yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it's also it's just this is gonna take
Speaker 1: time and a lot of work, And I think it's
Speaker 1: it's it's important age to understand going in that this
Speaker 1: is a long and difficult process. It's not gonna happen overnight,
Speaker 1: and be that it's a lot of work, Like you
Speaker 1: have to There's there's a lot of things that you
Speaker 1: have to do. There's a lot of sort of logistics,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of talking, there's a lot of like negotiating,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of sort of. I mean just just
Speaker 1: even I don't know, before anything gets off the ground,
Speaker 1: you have to spend enormous amounts of time and effort
Speaker 1: doing stuff and that's that's that's like it's just the
Speaker 1: reality of it. So yeah, there's there's no there's there's
Speaker 1: no there's there's there's there's no magic bullet like there's
Speaker 1: no sort of yeah, there's there's no just like one
Speaker 1: thing you can do that like magically makes it you
Speaker 1: need appear. It's a bunch of people coming together and
Speaker 1: like fighting for it for a long time. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think that that's like the main thing is like you're
Speaker 1: it's it's a cliche that's like it's a marathon, not
Speaker 1: as prints. Um. Sometimes I hate when people say that ship,
Speaker 1: but it's true, like you you really do have like, um,
Speaker 1: you're in it for the long haul, and a lot
Speaker 1: of times it's like your people are ready to do
Speaker 1: these things when they're like this is like I don't
Speaker 1: want you know, it's one thing to pop up in
Speaker 1: a place and be there for like you know, six months,
Speaker 1: like I need a we need a union, right, No
Speaker 1: one you know that works in that place, trust you,
Speaker 1: they don't know who you are, Like they're not going
Speaker 1: to follow you to do anything or you know, or
Speaker 1: take your you know, follow your lead. Um, it's the
Speaker 1: people who are like, I'm gonna be here, this is
Speaker 1: my this is where I want to be, and you know,
Speaker 1: this is a I want to be here for the
Speaker 1: next few years, and think of it is like a
Speaker 1: long term investment in the quality of your life and
Speaker 1: the quality of life at your workplace, because to win,
Speaker 1: you have to be sticking around, you know. And I
Speaker 1: think that's where it gets tough with people who are
Speaker 1: in like precarious types of employment or different types of
Speaker 1: and that's where you have to start looking at alternate
Speaker 1: ways to organize because maybe you're a precarious worker who
Speaker 1: does maybe you drive, like for a right here service,
Speaker 1: or maybe you like do delivery or like you know,
Speaker 1: um for an app or whatever to delivery for an app.
Speaker 1: And I think the thing is is like that sort
Speaker 1: of thing because of how and you know, these aren't
Speaker 1: like new forms of work. This is actually really old
Speaker 1: forms of work that are just like been like rebranded
Speaker 1: by tech bros who have decided like they're like they're
Speaker 1: like they're great genius is like rebranding the kind of
Speaker 1: like precarious work that was really like prominent like throughout
Speaker 1: the nineteenth century. And it's like, so then what do
Speaker 1: you do as you come up with ways to organize
Speaker 1: people regardless of like oh, like I'm you know, I
Speaker 1: work for this, like I work for lift or work
Speaker 1: for Uber and it kind of switches back and forth.
Speaker 1: Like the thing is, it's like that's when you start
Speaker 1: talking with you know, rideshare drivers across different like apps
Speaker 1: or whatever, and then you come up with a way
Speaker 1: to work collectively um to to change sorts of things.
Speaker 1: And sometimes that's it's gonna be it's gonna be tough,
Speaker 1: you know. And that's when I kind of look at
Speaker 1: those that sort of thing is like this is where
Speaker 1: it's a learning experience and maybe I don't get everything
Speaker 1: I want, but you know it's really important. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's like building these networks that people who care about
Speaker 1: like what they're working conditions are like, and you can
Speaker 1: pull things off maybe unexpectedly that you didn't expect. We're
Speaker 1: going to be like the thing, you know, like you
Speaker 1: may start with something that looks like a union drive
Speaker 1: and then you end up with something that looks like
Speaker 1: very different it could you know, could go in all
Speaker 1: sorts of different direction. So um, you know there and
Speaker 1: look outside of the US, you know, their countries where
Speaker 1: like in UM, I think that there have been some
Speaker 1: pretty successful delivery app organ to organizing in London UM.
Speaker 1: And you know, I think that to a certain extent,
Speaker 1: like formal extent, US unions have not been very successful
Speaker 1: in organizing those workers because it doesn't it's hard to
Speaker 1: do from the extant business union model, and so it's
Speaker 1: like it's one of those things where you know it
Speaker 1: used to be, you know, they would have like you know,
Speaker 1: the fight would be instead of trying to get like
Speaker 1: workers are like a contract at a particular like work site,
Speaker 1: you set up a hiring hall, like the i w
Speaker 1: W would set up hiring halls UM and like you
Speaker 1: know for lumberjacks and that sort of thing, and those
Speaker 1: workers are always pre areas right, but they would go
Speaker 1: trying set up so that like people would only take
Speaker 1: jobs out of the hiring hall and that's how they
Speaker 1: would control their like their work. And I think that
Speaker 1: more unions needed. And part of this is like if
Speaker 1: there's any union people out there who are in staff
Speaker 1: and that sort of thing is like there needs to
Speaker 1: be a serious re examination of how we do unions
Speaker 1: in this country. And I think a lot of people
Speaker 1: inside unions understand that, but no one has quite done
Speaker 1: it yet in a way that's effective. And I think
Speaker 1: that we really do need to kind of re evaluate
Speaker 1: that sort of stuff. So just you know, as someone
Speaker 1: who's going into like a new sort of organizing campaign,
Speaker 1: just understand that like getting the union contract isn't necessarily
Speaker 1: the end gold end goal is to try and get
Speaker 1: your boss to do things differently so that you're not
Speaker 1: like miserable at work. And that might look like a contract,
Speaker 1: or it might look like you know, a a one
Speaker 1: day like uh, you know, app strike or something like that.
Speaker 1: You know, you'll you'll figure you've got to figure out
Speaker 1: how it's gonna work. Like with you know, in healthcare,
Speaker 1: you know, there's this idea that like, you know, there's
Speaker 1: the gold standard of the strike where you strike until
Speaker 1: we win and we're out for like you know, like
Speaker 1: two or three months. Well, the problem is is that
Speaker 1: there's an industry of scab nurses and healthcare workers where
Speaker 1: at any point they can bring in people to replace
Speaker 1: enough of you that a hospital can maintain operations. And
Speaker 1: unless you're super organized like they were up in um Buffalo,
Speaker 1: uh with c W A like, and have a big
Speaker 1: network of people and you're ready to go to like
Speaker 1: you know, board like picket board members houses and that
Speaker 1: sort of stuff. Um, those long term strikes can end
Speaker 1: in defeat where you end up with you know, you're
Speaker 1: all replaced with scabs and and it sucks and it's happened,
Speaker 1: and then you gotta I guess you gotta learn from it,
Speaker 1: you know, like we've there was a famous strike in
Speaker 1: Minnesota with healthcare workers and they went out and they
Speaker 1: were out for months and months, and there are people
Speaker 1: on you know, going to the super kitchen to feed
Speaker 1: their kids and stuff, and they lost right. And so
Speaker 1: my union tends to do one day strikes, but instead
Speaker 1: of just being at one hospital, we organized multiple hospitals
Speaker 1: across the country so that it soaks up all the
Speaker 1: like scat drives up scabs and it really like that.
Speaker 1: I think ideas like intermittent strikes were actually a really
Speaker 1: powerful tool back when you know, back when it was
Speaker 1: the c I oh and it was like we're going
Speaker 1: to just stop working until he fixed this problem. UM,
Speaker 1: and that's why they made them illegal and it takes
Speaker 1: a lot of work to pull them off. But if
Speaker 1: you can't pull them off, that could be an effective way.
Speaker 1: And if you're not in a union, maybe getting people
Speaker 1: down for a one day like work stoppage at your
Speaker 1: work or even you know, maybe it's like we're not
Speaker 1: starting our shift right. I've been in the room. I've
Speaker 1: been in the room where it's like, no, we're not
Speaker 1: going out to take that assignment until like we get
Speaker 1: our staff situation set up like fixed. And you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes it's just those collective actions are you know, it's
Speaker 1: not the end, Like there's no end. I'll be all
Speaker 1: one size fits all solution, just be ready to kind
Speaker 1: of like explore what it means get all the resources
Speaker 1: you can. There's groups like there's still like the Industrial
Speaker 1: Workers the World, which has really good organizing trainings o
Speaker 1: T one oh one and one oh two. I'll pitch
Speaker 1: that as a member of as a also a dual
Speaker 1: carding member of the i w w UM. But there's
Speaker 1: also Labor notes UM and other groups like Essential Workers
Speaker 1: Organizing Committee that's sort of things that like give you
Speaker 1: good like rundowns on how to do the organizing work.
Speaker 1: So just be careful, always be careful, be aware that
Speaker 1: people are afraid. Bosses use fear um to scare you guys,
Speaker 1: to scare everybody, and like, the the more people on
Speaker 1: board with a thing, the less fear. Like it's amazing
Speaker 1: when you're running up into a strike and you're really
Speaker 1: firing on all cylinders and like everyone in your like
Speaker 1: work areas we're getting together to take a picture, like
Speaker 1: get ready to go on strike, and it's like literally,
Speaker 1: i mean when we went on strike, when our hospital
Speaker 1: went on strike, it was the first time where like
Speaker 1: there was like nurses on one places the first time
Speaker 1: when all of us were in one place ever. And
Speaker 1: it's just massive like coming together thing experience. And it's
Speaker 1: really hard to describe when you when because you know,
Speaker 1: we're always griping at each other about this or that thing.
Speaker 1: It's like, but when you're actually all out there together
Speaker 1: on the same time, when you pull it off, it's
Speaker 1: really amazing. Um, it's hard, it's it's hard to describe, um,
Speaker 1: but when you do it, it's like it's like the
Speaker 1: purest drug. And so've I've heard some people who are
Speaker 1: union skeptical be like well, you just experienced like the
Speaker 1: good ship and like what about all the defeats, Like, well,
Speaker 1: get the little hits, get the little hits here and there,
Speaker 1: and get yourself to the point where you can do
Speaker 1: the big thing. You know, you're the whole thing is
Speaker 1: like getting people to do the thing is like the
Speaker 1: is it's like the perennial uh, you know, curse at
Speaker 1: the left, can you do it? Or curse of you know,
Speaker 1: like the organizer activist or you know, whatever you wanna
Speaker 1: call it. You know, it's just but you know, if
Speaker 1: you don't do anything, nothing happens. You can all sit
Speaker 1: and complain and nothing changes. So you know the only
Speaker 1: way to changes things is take those complaints and turn
Speaker 1: them into collective action. Yeah, I think I think that's
Speaker 1: that's that that that that that's that's a pretty good
Speaker 1: positive note to end on. Just go do things. Go
Speaker 1: do the thing now. Stop tweets, stop tweeting, stop tweeting
Speaker 1: about it, Go do the thing. Um yeah, I think
Speaker 1: that's I. Like, I guess one last thing because I
Speaker 1: talked about social media and talk you know, I talked smack.
Speaker 1: I like, I've been off Twitter for some months now,
Speaker 1: is it really cleared my brain. But you know, um,
Speaker 1: being on finding the social media space where your your
Speaker 1: coworkers are at is really important and that might mean
Speaker 1: setting up like a discord or you know, what's app
Speaker 1: or a Facebook group. You can set up secret Facebook
Speaker 1: groups that no one could see. And yeah, like like
Speaker 1: Facebook will periodically shut them down. But like our hospital
Speaker 1: has like a like a Facebook group with like two
Speaker 1: thousand nurses and we and that's where we got really
Speaker 1: amped up. And it was a way for us to
Speaker 1: be talking with each other and talk each other through,
Speaker 1: um the stress of setting up you know this thing.
Speaker 1: And then also like you know, people workers can't organize
Speaker 1: like like people will do organizing even if like they
Speaker 1: don't have like that full support. So like some coworkers,
Speaker 1: not coworkers, but members of my union went on strike
Speaker 1: at Cook County this year, and the whole thing was
Speaker 1: organized practically without like staff, right because the staff were
Speaker 1: barred from being in meetings, like in person meetings because
Speaker 1: of COVID and they couldn't go into the hospital because
Speaker 1: of COVID. So people were very pissed about how things
Speaker 1: have been going and they were talking to each other
Speaker 1: and we organized that strike. They organized that strike on
Speaker 1: their own practically, um. You know, it lined up. They
Speaker 1: were off there. You know, they didn't have the no
Speaker 1: strike clause like operating at the time, and um, and
Speaker 1: they pulled off like a pretty like a significant victory
Speaker 1: um from their one day strike and it really um
Speaker 1: really you know, like got them some big wins. But
Speaker 1: and they didn't they didn't need the union to do
Speaker 1: it for them. You know, the union was kind of
Speaker 1: like a facilitation tool rather than like the thing that
Speaker 1: got it done. I think that's the other thing is
Speaker 1: that there are people who think that like it's all
Speaker 1: dependent on like having like this hero staffer sort of
Speaker 1: thing situation, and at the end of the day, like
Speaker 1: if it's not the workers doing it themselves, nothing's going
Speaker 1: to happen. Yeah. Yeah, the power, the power is with
Speaker 1: the working class itself, and if the working class doesn't
Speaker 1: use it, nothing will ever happen. Yeah. But if it
Speaker 1: does use it, I will trail off here. Sounds good. So, John,
Speaker 1: is is there any place that you want people to
Speaker 1: find things that you do? Like, Yeah, I used to
Speaker 1: be on Twitter. Um periodically will show up on uh
Speaker 1: varn vlog, which is uh see Derek Varnes m vlog
Speaker 1: on YouTube. Um, there's I recommend people UH listen to.
Speaker 1: There's a group of podcasts called the Emancipatient Network. I
Speaker 1: really like their stuff specially UM. There's a what's it
Speaker 1: called General Intellect Unit, which talks about like cybernetics and
Speaker 1: the left. Um. They have a lot of particularly cool
Speaker 1: stuff that's just come out recently about UM, about strategy
Speaker 1: that I think is really important for everyone to understand. Um.
Speaker 1: I was a founding member of the uh Libertarian Socialist
Speaker 1: Caucus at d s A. But I'm no longer in
Speaker 1: d s A. There's a but that group is still
Speaker 1: kind of kicking around. We're coming up with new things. Uh.
Speaker 1: Then then I guess like, Um, the University of Chicago
Speaker 1: Labor Council is a group that I spend a lot
Speaker 1: of time with. And there's also a tennants United High
Speaker 1: Park with Loan, which is a tenant union that you
Speaker 1: helped set up. And to hell. Yeah, so you know, UM,
Speaker 1: go out there and you know, don't don't listen to
Speaker 1: me or don't try and find follow me. Go like
Speaker 1: you go figure it out and you're our neighborhood and yeah,
Speaker 1: and set up a mill set up a million different
Speaker 1: you know, like labor councils and worker committees and tenant
Speaker 1: unions that yeah, like build build power. That's why I
Speaker 1: think I sometimes we are afraid of the term power.
Speaker 1: I think that power is that it's best when it's everybody.
Speaker 1: And so I guess I might say it's like go
Speaker 1: out there and build community and worker power are and um,
Speaker 1: don't be afraid because fear is the one thing that
Speaker 1: they've got to wave over our heads. And sometimes you
Speaker 1: just got to take that jump and do the thing.
Speaker 1: And uh and that's how we're hopefully going to win
Speaker 1: one day, say in the world. Yep. And you can
Speaker 1: do this just like all of these things, everything we've
Speaker 1: been talking about for the past like two hours, these
Speaker 1: were all just done by ordinary people. Like there's there's
Speaker 1: there's it's all. It's all done my random people. And
Speaker 1: you know that random person can be you. You just
Speaker 1: have to go and do go to the thing. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So yeah, this that this has been It could happen here.
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at happened here pod
Speaker 1: and also on Instagram there and uh yeah there's other
Speaker 1: cool zone stuff. Oh I guess yeah, there's there's there's
Speaker 1: a new show called Megacorp that that we have that's
Speaker 1: about how corporations are bad and the first season about Amazon.
Speaker 1: It's out now. Okay, it just doesn't have a Twitter,
Speaker 1: but yeah, it's it's called Megacorp and you can find
Speaker 1: it wherever fine podcasts are distributed. Yes, okay, bye, It
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