1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vanderkam. I'm a mother of four, 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah hart Hunger. 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, practicing position and blogger. On 4 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: the side, we are two working parents who love our 5 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. 6 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, 7 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping 8 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get 9 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. 10 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:36,279 Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode sixty seven. We are 11 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: going to be talking about emotional labor with guests and 12 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: Jemma Hartley, who's just written a book on that topic 13 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: called fed Up. So we're really excited to speak with 14 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 1: her about emotional labor, what that means, what it means 15 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:52,879 Speaker 1: for couples, what it means for women in general, and 16 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: how we move forward from here. So we've I have 17 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: a funny note from Sarah who had once told me 18 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: that she never suffers from planning fatigue, and now it 19 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:04,959 Speaker 1: seems that Sarah has planning fatigue. You want to unpack 20 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: that for us? Yeah, I have had some planning fatigue, 21 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 1: And now I know what you mean, because when you 22 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 1: asked me, I didn't really. But We've had a lot 23 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: going on, and I've done some deep thinking about why 24 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: all of a sudden things are feeling more overwhelming, and interestingly, 25 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: I think this is a great and timely topic considering 26 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,479 Speaker 1: our guests today. But I think it has to do 27 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: as many things do with the baby and the fact 28 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 1: that typically I'm a morning planner and I like to 29 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: get up really early, and I have really good, kind 30 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: of laser focused planning type power in the morning, like 31 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:43,320 Speaker 1: I can really think through a lot of things very quickly, 32 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: and I haven't had those nice, rested mornings. And when 33 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: I try to get up early a lot of the time, 34 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: she still beats me to iting if it's four am. 35 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: And you know, that is what it is. And maybe 36 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: I will get to that magical sleep training place or 37 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 1: sleep resolution place, but right now it's just been less 38 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: time to sit there and actually go through things in 39 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: a timely manner, and it's just made it harder. So 40 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: I'm finding those loose ends and those sidy items and 41 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: the mounting, you know, requests from both of my kids' 42 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: schools just more difficult than they have previously, and my 43 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: kind of mojo to sit there and think about what 44 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: I want to do in a given weekend has been 45 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: less fun and more just like another thing. So I 46 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: guess I'm having planning fatigue. Yeah, so how are you 47 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: getting through it? Because I sort of, you know, made 48 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 1: sure to delegate some of the major planning things that 49 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: I was not wanting to do and kind of not 50 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: taking on stuff. I mean, that was certainly part of it, 51 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: and accepting that some weekends weren't going to be well planned. 52 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: I have been. And for example, we last weekend, my 53 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 1: husband was on call and I didn't really bother to 54 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:55,359 Speaker 1: like look at his schedule. We had a bot miss 55 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:59,519 Speaker 1: but to go do, and I normally what I would 56 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 1: have done probably weeks in advances realized you're on call, 57 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: you need to change your schedule, but I just haven't 58 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: had time to do that, and I'm like, whatever, I 59 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: don't care, it's not my problem. And so when he 60 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 1: realized it, he figured out how he could handle it, 61 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 1: and that would have been something that I would have 62 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:16,799 Speaker 1: dealt with, for better or for worse. I also have 63 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 1: been delegating specific things. Now our guests will probably say, well, 64 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: the fact that you say that you have to delegate 65 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: them is emotional labor to begin with, but whatever, it's 66 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: a survival tactic. And my daughter had a and yet 67 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: another fairly involved first grade of project involving the creation 68 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: of a bottle buddy doll and a country report with 69 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: various facts, and I just told him that he was 70 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: doing it, and it was great because I you know, 71 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: he was fine with it, and then I just completely 72 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: erased it from my existence, like I just didn't think 73 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: about it anymore. Whereas even in the future, even if 74 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: I had asked them to do it, I probably have 75 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: been like, note to self, still put it in my planner, 76 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: make a box to follow up, make sure it's done. No, 77 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: so I'm being more more aggressive about my delegation, I guess, 78 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: and sometimes I'm just dealing with the consequences of less planning. 79 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: We didn't really have any planned ahead anchor events this 80 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: past weekend, but it actually turned out fine. We had 81 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: a family over, we got takeout, we went to Target, 82 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: we enjoyed it. We did that together and it was fine. 83 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 1: And then finally, I've been leaving a lot and Laura 84 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 1: had tests this because this includes some of our podcasts 85 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: from to my days off, Like I just can't necessarily 86 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: get to them during the week. If I can, I can, 87 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: But if I can't, then I know that like I'm 88 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: going to have the mornings when I'm off my nanny 89 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:35,359 Speaker 1: is here. That's like my time to catch up on 90 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 1: all the kinds of things that I don't get to 91 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 1: do other times. So it might mean working less far 92 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 1: in advance or triaging a little bit more, but kind 93 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: of letting things float until my next day off. Yeah, 94 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 1: And I mean I think that the way you and 95 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: I tend to plan our lives, there's a fair amount 96 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: of slack in there if we stop planning stuff, I 97 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:56,679 Speaker 1: mean pretty quickly. My husband and I had our calendar 98 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: meeting last night, and we were already looking at like 99 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 1: stuff at the end of November and December and figuring 100 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: out potential, you know, weekend conflicts that you know, the 101 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: kids have multiple things at once, and I'm like, wow, 102 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 1: you know, it's good. I think that we're looking at it. 103 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 1: But on the other hand, like we'd probably still be 104 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: able to deal with it the week of if we 105 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: needed to. And so there's some aspect of this that 106 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: we're so far ahead planned that. It just there is 107 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 1: quite a bit of space to deal with, you know, 108 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: problems if we then don't plan. I was saying with 109 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: this podcast, you know, we had our guests schedule. It's 110 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: not like, you know, we didn't have a guest schedule 111 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 1: and we're scrambling to figure out an episode. And by 112 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:38,280 Speaker 1: the way, these episodes aren't airing told November and we're 113 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: recording them in October. So it's, uh, you know, the 114 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:45,359 Speaker 1: planning thing is we may be pretty far on the 115 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 1: spectrum of of what normal people might do. Yeah, there 116 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: is black built in so that it's actually you know, 117 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: the world doesn't fall apart if on a given weekend, 118 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,159 Speaker 1: it's just like, eh, we're just gonna let chips fall 119 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 1: because you're right. I mean, I still have like multiple 120 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: date nights planed for Novent, Like there are things that 121 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: I had set up previously. I mean, if I were 122 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: in the slump forever, then yes, in January we could 123 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: start to have issues were I think we'd get pretty 124 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: burned out. But then maybe that would motivate me to 125 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: get my planning mojo back, or maybe our guest, Gemma, 126 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: is gonna teach me how to share this duty a 127 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: little bit better, and I think that's a good segue. Yeah, 128 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: let's see what she has to say. Well, we are 129 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: so excited to welcome Jemma Hartley to the podcast today. 130 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: Jemma is the author of the book fed Up, which 131 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: is out today when this is airing November thirteen, So 132 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 1: that's really exciting to have her on for this. She 133 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: lives in Nevada and is the mother of three children. 134 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: Young children, and a lot of people got to know 135 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: Gemma when she wrote an article for Harper's Bazaar a 136 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,799 Speaker 1: little over a year ago about emotional labor that women 137 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: aren't nags, were just fed up. So that's where the 138 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:01,280 Speaker 1: fed Up title comes from. Jenna, thanks for coming on, 139 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. Anything 140 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 1: else you want to tell our listeners about your life, 141 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: your setup that I didn't say on the intro there, 142 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: I think that about covers it. I'm in Nevada, I'm 143 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: taking care of three young kids, and you know, writing writing, 144 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: it's just wonderful. So we're very you know, this idea 145 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: of emotional labor, it's definitely something people are talking about 146 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: a lot more now than in the past. What exactly 147 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: is it? How do you define emotional labor. So when 148 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: I'm defining emotional labor, I'm talking about all of the invisible, 149 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: sort of behind the scenes work that women are doing 150 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: to keep everyone on track and to keep everyone comfortable 151 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: while they're keeping them on track. It's the scheduling the 152 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: doctor's appointment, planning the holidays, reminding your partner to do 153 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: the dishes, but making sure you don't do it in 154 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: a way that's nagging. And it's not so much the 155 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: tasks themselves, but the fact that it's on a constant 156 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: loop in your head because you're the only one that 157 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: thinks about these things. Okay, so it's the thinking about 158 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: the So it could be planning, it could be relationship management, 159 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: could be household management, all the all the thinking about it, 160 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: I guess is that what you'd say, would you? And 161 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: would you say? It's sort of the feeling of being 162 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: in charge or being the ultimate one responsible, even if 163 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: you're not the one executing. Yes, absolutely, it's about being 164 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: the one who thinks about all these things and make 165 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: sure that they get done. So you might have a 166 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: partner that does half of all the housework, but you're 167 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: the one that's saying, hey, remember to do the dishes. 168 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 1: Remember to call your mom. Remember to do this because 169 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 1: you're sort of the brain for the whole family, and 170 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 1: I think a lot of moms can relate to that. 171 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: So one you know, on my this is Laura, by 172 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: the way, the on the on my and sometimes on 173 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: this podcast. One of the solutions we often suggest when 174 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: there's inequality in a situation like this is to care less, 175 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 1: so that the person who cares less winds up doing less. Now, 176 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 1: in your book, The fed Up, you seem to suggest 177 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: that this isn't necessarily the way to go on a 178 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: lot of this emotional labor stuff. Why is that? So? 179 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: I'm really against the whole let it go mindset which 180 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: has been really popular in feminist literature for the past 181 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: few years, that if we don't want to live up 182 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,599 Speaker 1: to this standard, or if our partners don't want to 183 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: live up to the standard, that we should just let 184 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 1: it all go. And I think that really undermines the 185 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: work that we're doing in emotional labor. It says that 186 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 1: it's not important, that it can be easily given up, 187 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,959 Speaker 1: and that no one will suffer in any way when 188 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: you do that. And I think the main reason that 189 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: I am against this other than it devaluing our work, 190 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,079 Speaker 1: is that it doesn't demand any change of our partners. 191 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: It's saying you have a problem, so you need to 192 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: fix it. And I don't think that that's a really 193 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 1: great solution. When you're looking for more equality in your relationship. 194 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: You shouldn't have to make all of the compromises while 195 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 1: your partner does nothing to change. So that has a 196 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: good sort of theoretical idea to it. But I mean, 197 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: I guess one of the reasons we do say the 198 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: care less is that it's the easiest way to get 199 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 1: to the equality. So if you're saying that's not the 200 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: way to go, what are some practical ways to get 201 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: a partner to take on more of this emotional labor 202 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: that you're talking about. Well, I think one of the 203 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 1: most important things is that we have a vocabulary to 204 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: talk about this. So I'm hoping that my book really 205 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,319 Speaker 1: gives us the language we need to describe the type 206 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: of work that we're doing and why it's important, why 207 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: it's exhausting, and why we need our partners to step 208 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: up and take equal initiative. So I think a lot 209 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: of it has to do with having a really open, honest, 210 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: conversation about the inequality that you feel in your relationship, 211 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:16,439 Speaker 1: and that can often lead to defensiveness. A lot of 212 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 1: the times I hear men saying, well, I do so much, 213 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: and usually when they're saying that, they're saying I do 214 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 1: so much compared to the men I know. And I 215 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: think we really need to shift the conversation from comparing 216 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: men to other men to comparing yourself to your partner? 217 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: Is it really equal within the home? Is it equal 218 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: within your relationship? And you know, one of the things 219 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: we also hear from, you know, some of our listeners 220 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 1: is I'd like to share more of this, but I 221 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: worry he wouldn't do it the way I think it 222 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: should be done. And I know you write some about 223 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 1: this sort of gatekeeping idea. Do you think this is 224 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: something that plays into the emotional labor conversation. I think 225 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: it absolutely is. I think that women are really conditioned 226 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: toward perfectionism, and so there is this very specific way 227 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: that we want things done. Now. A lot of the 228 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:17,679 Speaker 1: times those expectations that we have are reasonable. They're based 229 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 1: in what is the most efficient way to do this, 230 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: what keeps everyone comfortable and happy? Those are standards you 231 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:27,359 Speaker 1: should keep, and then you have to sort of reevaluate. 232 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: So what things am I doing that are just for 233 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: the sake of control, for the sake of perfectionism. What 234 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 1: do I feel like I should do that maybe is 235 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: not necessary or not helpful. So when you're creating that 236 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 1: shared standard, it doesn't mean throwing out everything that you do. 237 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:48,719 Speaker 1: It means reevaluating what you do and why you do it. 238 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:52,719 Speaker 1: So what would be a practical example, like from your household, 239 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 1: of figuring out what the shared standard is and what 240 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: both parties can live with. So in my household, I 241 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: think a lot of it came down to me giving 242 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: up having everything done exactly how I wanted it. Things 243 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: like loading the dishwasher a certain way or having the 244 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: laundry folded a certain way. Those were really just these 245 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: strident examples of things that I did not need to 246 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 1: have total control over. It does not matter how the 247 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: towels are folded, as long as they are folded and 248 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 1: put away somewhere. It doesn't matter how the dishwasher is loaded, 249 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: as long as all the plates get cleaned. But having 250 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: shared standards on, you know, let's eat dinner at this 251 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: certain time so our kids don't turn into hungry monsters 252 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 1: is a really good one to talk about when we're 253 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: switching off on who's cooking dinner. I think it's going 254 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: to be really different for each relationship which standards you 255 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,079 Speaker 1: want to keep and which ones you want to sort 256 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: of readjust or let go of. But I think that 257 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: once you take a step back and really look at 258 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: it and work on it together, it becomes a lot 259 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 1: easier to see what your priorities are. How do you 260 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 1: reconcile this if well, speaking from personal situation, you know what, 261 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: if one partner's job is, from an hour's standpoint, more 262 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: significantly more demanding than the other, do you feel like 263 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: you know that obviously doesn't give any partner a free pass, 264 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: but it may mean that an unequal division of labor, 265 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: or even division of emotional labor makes sense for that 266 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: particular family. Because I found myself definitely doing a little 267 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: bit of that comparing as I read, but also doing 268 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: a lot of justifying, like, well, I also don't work 269 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: fourteen fifteen hour days, but that's a job requirement for 270 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: my husband's field. Yeah, And I think the balance is 271 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: going to look very different depending on your individual situation. 272 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: The thing is, you can't be in charge of all 273 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: of the emotional labor when your partner comes home. I 274 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: think that is one of the big things that I 275 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: hear is that you know, you have a partner who 276 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: works a very demanding job, but they come home and 277 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 1: then don't take on any of the emotional labor. And 278 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: it should really equal out when there are two of 279 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: you there. And I think that while the balance will 280 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: look different, while some people will take on considerably more 281 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: emotional labor just because it makes sense with their situation, 282 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: with the hours their partner works, it should never be 283 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: that one person is taking all of it on and 284 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: the other person is doing nothing. Perhaps there might be 285 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: an uneven split, and that could be okay, Yeah, absolutely. 286 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: I don't think we're looking for fifty to fifty. I 287 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 1: think fifty to fifty is a pipe dream. But you 288 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: can find something that works for you. Well. I said that, 289 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 1: even no matter how demanding your partner's job, they can 290 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: be primary really responsible for managing the relationship with their family. 291 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: For instance, like it's you know, if he's an adult, 292 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 1: it's his responsibility to whether he's calling his relatives often enough. 293 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's just one of those things I 294 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: feel is like, it's not has to be on you 295 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: unless you tell yourself it's on you, and it really 296 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: just does not have to be. But Jim, I want 297 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: to back up a little bit, because I was this 298 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: Harper's Bizarre article. It took one quite some legs. As 299 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: you saw, I'm sure you were getting, you know, notes 300 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: from people who like met you when you were two 301 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: or something. What did your husband think of it? Like, 302 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: I mean, because he's being written about as the guy 303 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 1: who's not putting the gift wrap away and an article 304 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: that millions and millions and millions of people have read, 305 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: I'm very curious how he reacted to that. Yeah, so 306 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: I think when the initial article came out, it was 307 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 1: a little bit hard for him because obviously this is 308 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: the first time in my entire freelance career that I 309 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: have written anything remotely negative about my relationship, and of 310 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,359 Speaker 1: course when I do that for the first time, it 311 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 1: goes megaviral. So it was a really strange situation to 312 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 1: be in talking to him about that. He knew that 313 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 1: I had written the article, and he's very supportive that 314 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 1: whatever I feel that I need to write, I am 315 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: welcome to write. It's not He's never going to put 316 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 1: limitations on what I can say about our relationship and 317 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: how I feel about it, and so in that way, 318 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:36,439 Speaker 1: it was great. But he also had this reaction to 319 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 1: it where he thought people were going to think he's 320 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: the bad guy. He's like, everyone's going to think I'm 321 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:47,639 Speaker 1: this awful person reading this article. And I think what 322 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 1: I kept telling him was, no, one's going to see 323 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: you when they look at this article. They're going to 324 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: see themselves and their own partnership. And I think that 325 00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:59,400 Speaker 1: made it a little easier. And then when it came 326 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 1: time to writ write the book, we had to have 327 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: a very serious conversation about how this was going to 328 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: be a lot of our personal business out there in 329 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,679 Speaker 1: the world. Obviously, how I have written the book tells 330 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: a lot about our journey and our marriage towards making 331 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:19,920 Speaker 1: emotional labor equal. And it was not an easy process. 332 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: It was not always casting him in the best light. 333 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,680 Speaker 1: And he has done great. He's been really supportive and 334 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: he's one hundred percent on board. So I am really 335 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:36,120 Speaker 1: grateful that I have a partner who is really sure 336 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 1: of himself and does not I don't know, it doesn't 337 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: scare easy. He's really got some thick skin when it 338 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: comes to the things that I've written. Yeah, it's just 339 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: it was the one thing that I kept kept wondering 340 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 1: about it. I also thought, I wonder what would happen 341 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: if if my husband, you know, were to complain about 342 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 1: me in a publication, So, you know, because there's a 343 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: lot of things that I don't do either, Right. I 344 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: think that's something that's always been helpful for me when 345 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 1: I think about this conversation, because I know that sometimes 346 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: I have issues with my husband and who's doing what. 347 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: But then I think of the various things that I 348 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 1: don't even bother to take on. But we can talk 349 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: more about that in a minute. I I want to 350 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: get into your book writing process because you were one 351 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: of the things that actually changed a lot in your 352 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,159 Speaker 1: household while you're writing this is your husband was between 353 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 1: jobs for a significant chunk of time while you were 354 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 1: writing the book, right, I mean you'd mostly been home 355 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 1: with your kids and then you guys had almost a 356 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:40,919 Speaker 1: complete role reversal. Yeah, it was a real It was 357 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:45,239 Speaker 1: really good for the book, actually, because I agree it 358 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 1: was a great and you couldn't have planned it better. 359 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: I could not have It was really wonderful and it 360 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 1: was really necessary. Honestly, when I think back on it, 361 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 1: I don't know that I could have written this book 362 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: the way it is now if my husband had not 363 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,919 Speaker 1: gotten laid off at pretty much the exact moment that 364 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 1: I got my book deal, because it really just shoved 365 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 1: us headfirst into dealing with emotional labor twenty four hours 366 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 1: a day because he was at home for four months 367 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 1: during the writing of this book, and we did go 368 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 1: through almost a complete role reversal where I was working 369 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: very long hours every day and he was at home 370 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 1: with our kids all the time. So it was a 371 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: totally new experience, and I think it really jump started 372 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: our progress with emotional labor because he was suddenly thrust 373 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:44,160 Speaker 1: into my life and into understanding all of the things 374 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: that I do every single day, and that was really 375 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: eye opening for both of us. Well, what was easy 376 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 1: for him to figure out how to take over, and 377 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: then what was more complicated for him to figure out 378 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 1: how to take over? I think everything was difficult for 379 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,400 Speaker 1: him to figure out how to take over. I've I'm 380 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: not kidding. It was really challenging for him to take 381 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 1: on this role, and I think probably the hardest part 382 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: for him was learning the I mean the physical stuff 383 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 1: was not terribly hard for him to start to take on, 384 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: but realizing all of the things that need to be 385 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 1: thought about. When I sort of shoved all the emotional 386 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,159 Speaker 1: labor on him and was like, I'm sorry, I have 387 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: to be in my room and write for like fifteen 388 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,920 Speaker 1: hours a day, he had to figure out what needs 389 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: to be done, what needs to be thought about, and 390 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: you don't think about how much mental capacity that takes 391 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: until you're the one doing it. And it was a 392 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: totally new experience for him. And I think that's really 393 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,879 Speaker 1: difficult because emotional labor is a skill that we hone 394 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 1: throughout our lives and to be just thrown into it 395 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 1: is really difficult. This is a skill that takes some 396 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 1: time to learn, and my husband had to learn really fast. Well, 397 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:10,120 Speaker 1: what was there anything that sort of got dropped? We're 398 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 1: just trying to get some sort of practical examples of 399 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 1: what emotional labor looks like and when when somebody learns 400 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: to figure it out. I mean, was there something that 401 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 1: didn't happen and then he learned to do? Oh gosh, 402 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 1: there were so many things I'm trying to think of, 403 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,160 Speaker 1: like a specific example, I use a few in the book. 404 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,640 Speaker 1: There was one where I write about in the book 405 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: when I got my wisdom teeth out during this time, 406 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 1: and I was like, Oh, he'll be fine, He'll get 407 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 1: everything taken care of, and I thought that he had 408 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: everything under control. I also thought that I was going 409 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 1: to be fine the next morning, and I woke up 410 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: in immense pain, like couldn't couldn't move, and a lot 411 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: of things went undone that morning, my son didn't have 412 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,679 Speaker 1: all the things he needed for school. He hadn't checked 413 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 1: the school email to see that it was like his 414 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 1: special electronics day, so he didn't have that. He didn't 415 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 1: have a snack, he hadn't packed lunches for half the kids. 416 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: I mean, it was it was just a mess, and 417 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 1: it was I don't know, he just dropped. He dropped 418 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff that day. And there were many 419 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,920 Speaker 1: days like that where things would just go to hell 420 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: because he wasn't used to constantly being on He wasn't 421 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 1: used to constantly thinking about this needs to be done, 422 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: then this needs to be done, then this needs to 423 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 1: be done, and so he'd get a few of the things, 424 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: but not all of the things. This does make me 425 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 1: question if my standards are lower though, And I can't 426 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 1: blame it on the fact that you have fewer kids 427 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 1: than I do, because we both have three, But like 428 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,919 Speaker 1: the number of dress up days for elementary school that 429 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: I have been like, oh well, and I realized it 430 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: on the way to work or something. And then yesterday 431 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 1: I even said to my daughter, I was like, you 432 00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: can read now, so here's your school calendar, and if 433 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:00,920 Speaker 1: you want to dress it up, that's your problem because 434 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 1: I can't like remember all these days. So I guess, like, 435 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: I mean, well, it just speaks to a little bit, 436 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: like you know, depending on where you're I'm not saying 437 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,880 Speaker 1: that that fits into the like let it go context 438 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 1: that you mentioned, but I mean, I guess I just 439 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 1: to play Devil's advocate, was like it was all that 440 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,920 Speaker 1: emotional labor, labor that truly needed to happen that day, 441 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 1: or was it a lesson in like you know what 442 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 1: your kids dressed and that they get to school pretty 443 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: on time. I mean, your husband figures out that that's okay. 444 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:30,919 Speaker 1: My son was definitely crying when he got to school 445 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: because he realized that he didn't have everything that he 446 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: needed and he was not having a real great day. 447 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 1: Because of it, I try and do things that matter 448 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: for you know, each kid, and so I think I 449 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,880 Speaker 1: think it really does depend on your kid and how 450 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 1: your family operates. Yeah, I don't know. The things that 451 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: went undone that day were things that I was like, no, 452 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: these definitely needed to be done. And it's just because 453 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,440 Speaker 1: my son had been really looking forward to this day, 454 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: Like having the special electronics day was a big deal 455 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,680 Speaker 1: to him. There have been a lot of like crazy 456 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: hat day and hair day things that I'm just like, 457 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 1: I didn't even know this happened. It doesn't matter. This 458 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 1: was like a bigger thing that he had been looking 459 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: forward to that did not get done. Yeah, I say 460 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,399 Speaker 1: with Sarah though, there I mean there's certainly I know 461 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 1: that we all have a tendency, I think men and 462 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: women to not see the work our partners do. And 463 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: so when you know, obviously a lot of the labor 464 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 1: that women have done over the years has just been 465 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,639 Speaker 1: completely ignored by everyone because it's not male and so 466 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,679 Speaker 1: therefore it hasn't been valued at all. But when I 467 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: think about it, I mean there's things that, like, to 468 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: give one example that I was talking about with Sarah earlier, 469 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 1: so my husband's extended family has this fantasy football league, 470 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: and he has enrolled three of our children in this. 471 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 1: Let's just say, I find this whole thing like kind 472 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: of stupid, Like why on earth would anyone spend their 473 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: time on the fantasy football But in order to keep 474 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 1: these children happy that they're not losing to Grandma constantly, 475 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,439 Speaker 1: you know, he's monitoring their trades. He's making sure that 476 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: you know, they've they've thought about it, checking in with them, 477 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 1: you know, talking with them about the wide receivers. Have 478 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 1: they done it? Like I have done nothing with this, 479 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 1: right because I don't think it's worth anything. On the 480 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:33,640 Speaker 1: other hand, like he may feel the same way about 481 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: piano practice, right, so like, certainly my husband's never telling 482 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: the kids to practice the piano, but I think he 483 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 1: kind of views that as like I viewed fantasy football 484 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: that you know, why on earth would we be doing this? 485 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: You know, if the kids don't want to do it, 486 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 1: why are you making them do it? So I don't know. 487 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: I wonder if there's some aspect of all of us 488 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:53,640 Speaker 1: have a bit of a blind spot when we see 489 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: the things that our partners do. I'm sure that that's 490 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 1: very true, and I think what you're describing your husband 491 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 1: doing is absolutely emotional labor, and that's wonderful to be 492 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: taking that he is taking that part in their lives, 493 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,199 Speaker 1: and you know, doing all of this that's very very 494 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,120 Speaker 1: much emotional labor, because he's doing this work that's sort 495 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:19,639 Speaker 1: of invisible and thankless, and also is caring deeply about 496 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:24,640 Speaker 1: your children and their happiness. And I think that it's 497 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: really easy to miss that. But I think by and 498 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: large the reason that I was writing fed Up was 499 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 1: that it's so much more common for women to be 500 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: doing this type of work and for it to go 501 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: completely unnoticed that I think it deserves looking at sort 502 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,200 Speaker 1: of the culture that we were raised in and why 503 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: women so often feel that it's necessary to do this 504 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 1: work and that there is no changing it. No, I 505 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,919 Speaker 1: agree with you, and I think I think you know 506 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 1: the fact that we tend to come up with examples, 507 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: you know, we can't come we almost can't come up 508 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 1: with our own examples because it's just so everything. So 509 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: it's like the exceptions that we think of where where 510 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,719 Speaker 1: the husbands tend to take over, and you know, career aside, 511 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 1: it does tend to be extremely consistent across families, whether 512 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 1: or not both parents work. When parents works, who has 513 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 1: the biggest job. So I think you're overarching. I think 514 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: this book was a really important one, and I think 515 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: I'm really glad you've brought somebody's discussions to light. So 516 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 1: what does a day in the life of Jenna look 517 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 1: like now? I mean, obviously things are changing a lot. 518 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 1: Your kids are all in school now, right, That's one 519 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: thing that's changed a little bit. Yes, that's a big 520 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 1: change having all three of my kids in school. The 521 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 1: youngest is only doing half days three days a week, 522 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: so I don't have that much more, you know, just 523 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: solo time. I have nine hours a week where I 524 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 1: am at home and there are no children. But that 525 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: is nine hours more than I had in the last 526 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: eight years. So that's a lot to me. Right now, 527 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: my life is definitely in flux because I am currently, 528 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: as of this recording, waiting for the book to come out, 529 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 1: and so I'm doing a little bit of freelancing here 530 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 1: and there. But what my day typically looks like now 531 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: that my husband is back at work i'm gearing up 532 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: for my book release, is that I get up, I 533 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: do all the stuff to get the kids out the door, 534 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: I no longer make their lunches. My husband has just 535 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: taken it upon himself now to get up every morning 536 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 1: and make everyone the lunches. I don't know if it 537 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 1: was the fight that we had after the wisdom tooth removal, 538 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: and the lunch is not getting packed, but they are 539 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 1: packed every day, and I get the kids off to school. 540 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: They go to two different schools because the younger is 541 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: in preschool and the older two are in elementary. On 542 00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 1: the days that they're all in school, I'll usually come 543 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: home do work of some sort, whether that means doing 544 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: interviews for the book, or working on freelance, or working 545 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 1: on creating a proposal for my next book, and it's 546 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 1: very quickly those three hours fly by, and then it's 547 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: time to go pick up the kids. Usually I like 548 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 1: to spend some time just getting my younger one outside 549 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: in the backyard and I sit back there and read. 550 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 1: Reading's a really big priority for me, So I'll usually 551 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: spend a couple hours reading and you know, doing the 552 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 1: occasional tending to snacks and playtime and whatever. You know, 553 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: the needs of a three year old are before I 554 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 1: go and pick up the older ones. And then it's 555 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: sort of home, doing homework, getting everyone ready for dinner time, 556 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: and my husband comes home around the time that the 557 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: kids are having dinner. I'll usually go to an evening 558 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: yoga class and then sort of wind down, have dinner, 559 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 1: and go to bed. I don't do a lot of 560 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: watching TV. I usually track my time. I've been doing 561 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 1: it all since I've read I don't know how she 562 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 1: does it, and so I'm really I'm really strict about 563 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: my schedule. I can kind of see what it looks 564 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: like every day. Usually before I go to bed, I 565 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 1: do a little bit of planning for the next day. 566 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: If there's anything that I want to fit in, I'll 567 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: make sure it makes it into one of my time slots. 568 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 1: But yeah, that's what a regular day looks like for me. 569 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: And when did you do your writing when you were 570 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 1: you know, when you had little kids at home underfoot 571 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 1: the whole time. I would do my writing either very 572 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 1: early in the morning or at night. I would get 573 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: up at five point thirty and write for a couple 574 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,479 Speaker 1: of hours or hour and a half, however long it 575 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 1: was until the kids woke up. Generally, when I was 576 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: doing morning writing, they would tend to wake up really early, 577 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 1: so I would just a best with you. Right. Yeah, 578 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 1: I was just like, I'm going to get up at 579 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: five today and I'm going to get so much writing done. 580 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: Someone would wake up at five fifteen every time, so 581 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 1: I that is like the current story. It was so difficult, 582 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 1: especially when they're really young, and so I would do 583 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 1: a lot of my writing when my husband came home 584 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 1: from work. I would set hours so that I would, 585 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 1: you know, hit the goal that I wanted to. I 586 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: also have my kids in sports that allow me to write. 587 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 1: So I have my daughter in gymnastics and that's just 588 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:37,720 Speaker 1: like an hour and a half block of work time. 589 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: My son does rock climbing. That's a couple hours of worktime. 590 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: And both are really convenient places to work where my 591 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: kids are off doing their thing and I can work. 592 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 1: But yeah, it was really a lot of stolen hours 593 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: on the fringe edges of my day. And it's a 594 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 1: lot nicer to have these set hours every every other 595 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 1: day where I'm working. Yeah, and you don't do a 596 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: lot of outsourcing. No, I don't do any outsourcing. I 597 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: should probably do more. Yeah, we're big fans of that here, 598 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 1: and I know you know you mentioned and there was 599 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: a couple of mentions of outsourcing. And I definitely agree 600 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 1: that not every you know, hired nanny or babysitter is 601 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 1: paid fairly or well. But there's no rule that says 602 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: you don't that you can't pay them fairly or well 603 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 1: or hire someone that's educated or truly to give them 604 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: a truly good job. So I guess, again just playing 605 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 1: double advocate to something that you mentioned, it's not necessarily 606 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 1: something that can be written off with the you know, 607 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 1: with just a statement like you know that we're using 608 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: low paid labor or that we're getting worked done on 609 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: the backs of low paid people. Because I you know, 610 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: I really did appreciate a lot of what you said, 611 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 1: but I just felt like there was a little bit 612 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 1: of a commentary or a counterpoint I wanted to make 613 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 1: to that side of things. Yeah. No, I mean, there 614 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 1: are absolutely people who pay well for people to you know, 615 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: clean their homes or to watch their children. The point 616 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: that I am making in the book is that by 617 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 1: and large, we as a society do not value this work, 618 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 1: and we really do not pay well for this type 619 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 1: of work. So the point being with there that I mean, 620 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: all this sort of female labor has long been undervalued right, 621 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,840 Speaker 1: and that this is one aspect of a female labor 622 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: that has been undervalued over time. You know, we maybe 623 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,800 Speaker 1: maybe Sarah and I will do a follow up episode 624 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 1: sometimes on the things we've done to move some of 625 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 1: our emotional labor to other people. But you know, it's 626 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: it's definitely a conversation that all all couples should should 627 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,040 Speaker 1: have in terms of what you do, what you care about, 628 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 1: what shared you know, shared standards and all that. So 629 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,799 Speaker 1: it's great to have a new language to deal with that. 630 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: So Jemma, we do a segment each week where we 631 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 1: talk about our loves of the week, like things that 632 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,800 Speaker 1: we are really liking this week. We can go first, 633 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: so you can kind of figure out if you want 634 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:17,359 Speaker 1: to do something totally different or similar or whatever. So Sarah, 635 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 1: how about you? I will mention the single Bob running Stellar. 636 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 1: So we my husband and I are both runners, and 637 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,879 Speaker 1: we have both a single and double Bob because they've 638 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,239 Speaker 1: come in handy in different situations where the kids are 639 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:32,799 Speaker 1: different ages. The single had kind of been like in 640 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 1: the back of our shed and not used for a 641 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,439 Speaker 1: long period of time, and then we kind of realized, like, hey, 642 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: Genevieve's our baby is old enough for this and in 643 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,239 Speaker 1: his ome foor kid, I you ever know. But so 644 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:45,759 Speaker 1: before I get her, I will just say that she 645 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:47,759 Speaker 1: has loved running in it and it has made it 646 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 1: much easier to run when she gets up early sometimes, 647 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,440 Speaker 1: which has been a boom for the other parents. Yeah, Now, 648 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 1: I said those moments when you've woken up at five 649 00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:57,920 Speaker 1: am to get stuff done and the kid is up 650 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 1: at five fifteen, Now Sarah can go do her run 651 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,480 Speaker 1: with the with the single bob. So my my thing 652 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 1: is is, you know, some of the toys we've bought 653 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,399 Speaker 1: like get no use, and some toys have been used 654 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,719 Speaker 1: by all the kids. As just saying, we bought this 655 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,799 Speaker 1: like tractor that you can drive around the backyard. And 656 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,360 Speaker 1: I was outside with my three year old who's our youngest, 657 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 1: the other day and he's just having such a grand 658 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,400 Speaker 1: old time driving at loops around the backyard, you know 659 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 1: the fall leaves. I realize, like all of my kids 660 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:26,440 Speaker 1: have done that, Like all four of them have driven 661 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,839 Speaker 1: around in this tractor in the fall leaves, just having 662 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,720 Speaker 1: a grand old time. Hopefully it'll make them better drivers 663 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 1: when they are sixteen years old. Know that they already 664 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 1: know how to put something in reverse that that's a 665 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:38,839 Speaker 1: that's a skill that's about But yeah, that's we've we've 666 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: really enjoyed those those things and hasn't torn up the 667 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,840 Speaker 1: grass too bad? I guess, Jemma, are you got anything 668 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:49,760 Speaker 1: for us? So this week I discovered this new app 669 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 1: called Libby, and it's just a simple e reader app 670 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 1: that hooks up to your library card. And I have 671 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 1: never been much of an e reader, but now that 672 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,399 Speaker 1: I have this app on my phone and I can 673 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 1: just check out books from the library, I find that 674 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,920 Speaker 1: I'm reading a lot more when I would be like 675 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:15,360 Speaker 1: tempted to hit Instagram and scroll mindlessly. So it's helping 676 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 1: me get a little bit more reading done and I 677 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,479 Speaker 1: love it. Oh great idea. We're always looking for ways 678 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,879 Speaker 1: to use our phones better rather than just scrawling your app. 679 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,400 Speaker 1: I also made sure I put the app where my 680 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 1: Instagram app was, because that's the thing that gets me, 681 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 1: like I'll click on Instagram and just mindlessly scroll. So 682 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 1: I switched where my Instagram app was and put that 683 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,360 Speaker 1: one in its place. So I'm just like, oh, I 684 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:45,640 Speaker 1: can read a booh ooh that's good. It's good. Yeah, 685 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:47,920 Speaker 1: that's been awesome. Well, Jimma, thank you so much for 686 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,279 Speaker 1: coming on. We really appreciate it. Yeah, thank you for 687 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:55,319 Speaker 1: having me. Well, that was fascinating. Thanks for that. So 688 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,799 Speaker 1: our question this week comes from a listener who has 689 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 1: a childcare and related question. We get a lot of those, 690 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 1: but we love them, so please keep sending them in. Anyway, 691 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:07,200 Speaker 1: She's a postdoc who plans to transition into an industry 692 00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 1: position within in the next year or two. Her particular field. 693 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:12,719 Speaker 1: She says her work and theory can be done anywhere, 694 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:15,399 Speaker 1: and currently she works from home three days a week 695 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 1: and commutes into her institution on the other two. She 696 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:20,800 Speaker 1: has three kids, ages five, four, and one. Well, the 697 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 1: day she works from home, she stops working when the 698 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:24,799 Speaker 1: kids come home between three and four. The day she 699 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 1: does commute, she does not come home until five thirty. 700 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: They currently have a babysitter come to the house from 701 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: four to five thirty because obviously her husband is working too, 702 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:34,840 Speaker 1: and so the one year already figured out, is in 703 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:38,120 Speaker 1: daycare during the day, so the sitter is mostly because 704 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 1: the older kids are done with school at four. Anyway, 705 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 1: in the past year, we've gone through four babysitters with 706 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,319 Speaker 1: varying degrees of success. Some of them did not work 707 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:48,319 Speaker 1: out long term, they didn't get a well along with 708 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 1: the kids or with her. Finally, they have on the 709 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 1: fifth try someone awesome and they are absolutely thrilled. However, 710 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:56,799 Speaker 1: the kids are still complaining about the whole idea of 711 00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 1: coming home to a sitter in general, and asking whether 712 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:01,879 Speaker 1: this could be a day where Mommy could be home. 713 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:04,839 Speaker 1: They are definitely intense children, she says. I think they 714 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,479 Speaker 1: just feel after a long day of daycare in school, 715 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 1: they just want a parent. Around the point of this, 716 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: as she transitions into a full time job, is she 717 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:14,560 Speaker 1: is wondering how important it is for her to be 718 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:18,120 Speaker 1: there when her kids come home. Basically because of her location. 719 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,600 Speaker 1: She's in a suburb outside of big city. You know, 720 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,120 Speaker 1: the suburb is where her husband works, but her commute, 721 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:25,799 Speaker 1: she's probably going to wind up in the big city, 722 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 1: so she's going to be commuting like an hour and 723 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:30,879 Speaker 1: half of her feels like, you know, she just needs 724 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:32,280 Speaker 1: to get over that and deal with it and accept 725 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:33,759 Speaker 1: the fact that her kids are going to come home 726 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,000 Speaker 1: to a sinner and that's the way it is. The 727 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 1: other half is wondering if she needs to find some 728 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:39,760 Speaker 1: sort of job where she can leave at two thirty 729 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:43,040 Speaker 1: pm to get home in time that maybe she needs 730 00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,240 Speaker 1: to have a part time or less than ideal position 731 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,360 Speaker 1: that's in her local area in exchange for the ability 732 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,320 Speaker 1: to be home for her kids. So basically, her question 733 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,480 Speaker 1: is any strategies if the kids aren't happy being watched 734 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:59,319 Speaker 1: by anyone other their parents, Any comforting research that knows 735 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:02,160 Speaker 1: she's not damned her kids, and any advice on the 736 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 1: general balance between making your kids happy by being around 737 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,840 Speaker 1: for them emotionally versus just, you know, making sure that 738 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:11,160 Speaker 1: they're physically safe. So, Sarah, did you want to quick 739 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 1: say what you had thought of when you got this one? 740 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,640 Speaker 1: I wrote her a longer answer. Yeah, I mean I haven't. 741 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 1: I have a few things well, and none of the 742 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 1: one just came to me now as you read that 743 00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:22,040 Speaker 1: last part. So she I'm going to repeat what she said, 744 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,160 Speaker 1: general balance between making your kids happy by being around 745 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,000 Speaker 1: for them emotionally versus making them happy by providing for 746 00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:31,279 Speaker 1: their physical needs. I think one factor she left out 747 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 1: of this equation is her own happiness and fulfillment, because 748 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,640 Speaker 1: that is not a super variable. How happy she is 749 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:39,759 Speaker 1: and how while she feels like she's doing at work 750 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,839 Speaker 1: is probably going to influence how she behaves around them, 751 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,399 Speaker 1: how happy she is, how you know, does she feel 752 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:49,359 Speaker 1: like she's fulfilled so she can really attend to them, 753 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:51,360 Speaker 1: or does she sort of have a yearning to be 754 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:53,280 Speaker 1: doing something else the whole time? And is I'm happy? 755 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:55,879 Speaker 1: So I think that's like not an independent variable. It's 756 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,080 Speaker 1: kind of something that's important to integrate into the decision 757 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 1: making itself, even though it might not seem obvious. So 758 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,120 Speaker 1: her happiness and her career fulfillments. So I think this 759 00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,479 Speaker 1: requires a lot of soul searching. I think she needs 760 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 1: to think less about what is best for the kids necessarily, 761 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:15,160 Speaker 1: and Laura will speak to that in a moment, because 762 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,520 Speaker 1: I don't think that's going to be something obvious to 763 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,239 Speaker 1: figure out and figure out what she really wants to do. 764 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 1: And I think this might be an instance where it's 765 00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:25,720 Speaker 1: worth a pilot period, because even if she did convince 766 00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:27,640 Speaker 1: herself that maybe it was going to damage her kids 767 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:29,920 Speaker 1: or alter their behaviors in some ways, I don't think 768 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,279 Speaker 1: anyone would argue that trying it for six to twelve 769 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:35,680 Speaker 1: months to see what happens would be a damaging thing. 770 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 1: And I think it would be much easier to ramp 771 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 1: down from a more ideal job than to take a 772 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,160 Speaker 1: less than ideal job or a part time job and 773 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:47,040 Speaker 1: then trying to ramp up later. So I think that 774 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,960 Speaker 1: she should go for what she wants career wise, even 775 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:52,480 Speaker 1: if she thinks of it in her mind as a 776 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:56,200 Speaker 1: trial basis, and then take it from there. Yeah. No, 777 00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:59,040 Speaker 1: I think that's good. I think, you know, first, I'm 778 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 1: really sorry for her. She had to go through five sitters, 779 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:03,279 Speaker 1: but I mean, I think one, and that's going to 780 00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:04,719 Speaker 1: be tough on her and the kids right there, Like 781 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,200 Speaker 1: part of what she's you know, seeing as the intensity 782 00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 1: and neediness, is partly that the kids have gone through 783 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,480 Speaker 1: a lot of people. But I mean, part of what's 784 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:13,839 Speaker 1: going on there is that she's only hiring a sitter 785 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,120 Speaker 1: for three hours a week, right like four to five 786 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:18,520 Speaker 1: thirty two days a week, and there's not that many 787 00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 1: people who want that job, like unless you are paying 788 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:22,960 Speaker 1: one hundred dollars an hour, and there's not that many 789 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:25,000 Speaker 1: people who want to work three hours a week, and 790 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:28,320 Speaker 1: so your pool is going to be necessarily more limited, 791 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:31,000 Speaker 1: which makes it harder to find and keep good people, 792 00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,279 Speaker 1: which made me say, you know, first of all, why 793 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,120 Speaker 1: did they choose this as their childcare setup. You know, 794 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,440 Speaker 1: it may be that they thought this was most economical 795 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:40,799 Speaker 1: to have the little one in daycare and then have 796 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:44,040 Speaker 1: this the sitter afterwards, versus having a full time nanny 797 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,120 Speaker 1: for the one year old right, who would then be 798 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:49,480 Speaker 1: there when the other kids got home from school, would 799 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:52,239 Speaker 1: be the person who was always there and so they'd 800 00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:54,879 Speaker 1: get to know that person over time and probably build 801 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 1: the relationship from there. So you know, that could have 802 00:42:58,040 --> 00:42:59,839 Speaker 1: been an option otherwise. I mean, maybe the one year 803 00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:02,680 Speaker 1: old could stay in daycare for more hours and the 804 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:04,359 Speaker 1: four and five year old could go to some sort 805 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,719 Speaker 1: of aftercare program where there'd be other kids, there'd be 806 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:08,920 Speaker 1: their friends, or even if it was like a more 807 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,120 Speaker 1: informal one whereas a group setting, so they'd be hanging 808 00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,600 Speaker 1: out with their friends, that might be something they were 809 00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:16,399 Speaker 1: more happy about in that sort of steff. So first 810 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:19,560 Speaker 1: I would say, like, maybe the childcare setup is not ideal. 811 00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:22,279 Speaker 1: And you know, again, she's been at school, she's now 812 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,560 Speaker 1: transitioning into a full time industry job, she's going to 813 00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:27,040 Speaker 1: be earning more money. That may be somewhere to look 814 00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:29,759 Speaker 1: to put the money right that that might especially if 815 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:31,640 Speaker 1: she's going to be commuting an hour into this big city. 816 00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,120 Speaker 1: They may wish to have another adult around to deal 817 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:37,160 Speaker 1: with a lot of this stuff that is going to 818 00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:39,399 Speaker 1: be hard, you know. For if her husband's job doesn't 819 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:41,120 Speaker 1: have a whole lot of flexibility, if there's like an 820 00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,320 Speaker 1: early day for snow or a sick kid or something 821 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:46,480 Speaker 1: like that, they may be wanting to look more at 822 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:51,640 Speaker 1: the NANAE option. Anyway, you know, I think I don't 823 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:54,360 Speaker 1: buy that they're really unhappy about being cared for somebody 824 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:56,840 Speaker 1: other than their parents. I think they obviously prefer their parents, 825 00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,520 Speaker 1: but the older children go to school and they're not 826 00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,080 Speaker 1: complaining about going to school per se, like they're being 827 00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:04,240 Speaker 1: there with their teachers their whole day. So they're into 828 00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:08,120 Speaker 1: other adults. It's just this particular setup that I think 829 00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:11,520 Speaker 1: they're also sensing that mom feels some misgivings about it. 830 00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:14,960 Speaker 1: And I feel like kids, when they know it's complicated 831 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:18,319 Speaker 1: for their parents, will push on that too, Whereas if 832 00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:19,799 Speaker 1: the mom is just like, well, this is the way 833 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:23,160 Speaker 1: it is, then they don't. There's absolutely no research that 834 00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:24,840 Speaker 1: she's hurting her kids by not being there when they 835 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:26,720 Speaker 1: get home. Of course, there's no research that she's helping 836 00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:29,600 Speaker 1: them either. It's just that there's no way to do 837 00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:32,440 Speaker 1: a good study on this. And I mean, what variable 838 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:34,600 Speaker 1: are you looking at and how a kid turns out? 839 00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:36,680 Speaker 1: Like are you looking at you know, if they had 840 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:38,640 Speaker 1: a sit or when they were six, whether they graduate 841 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:40,680 Speaker 1: from high school? I mean, I don't know, Like, are 842 00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:42,640 Speaker 1: you looking at whether they're happy when they're twenty five? 843 00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:45,400 Speaker 1: What is your endpoint variable? I have no idea. You 844 00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:48,120 Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to design a study that way. And 845 00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:50,439 Speaker 1: you know, these things are also intertwined in the sense 846 00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:54,200 Speaker 1: that kids need time and money. Obviously, if mom is 847 00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:58,200 Speaker 1: working more hours, there's less time with the kids. Often, 848 00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:03,080 Speaker 1: on the other hand, there's more mone and for many families, 849 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,200 Speaker 1: it's not an insignificant question whether mom works or not 850 00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:08,640 Speaker 1: in terms of the family's well being. So I think 851 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:13,040 Speaker 1: there's also you know, hard to tease that out. So 852 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:16,560 Speaker 1: you know, I think that as Sarah said, you know, 853 00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:18,840 Speaker 1: she should try to find a really good job she 854 00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:22,040 Speaker 1: loves and is happy about, and then she can figure 855 00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:24,479 Speaker 1: out what would be the situation that the kids would, 856 00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:28,320 Speaker 1: you know, find best how they could the childcare should 857 00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,799 Speaker 1: support her at our job if a year in it 858 00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:33,799 Speaker 1: is completely not working and they are unhappy, and she's 859 00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,400 Speaker 1: had her best go and created a childcare situation that 860 00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:39,279 Speaker 1: does afford her a lot of support and it's still 861 00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:42,360 Speaker 1: not working. Than fine, you know, figure out something else. 862 00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:46,359 Speaker 1: But you're probably better off trying and then seeing where 863 00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:48,680 Speaker 1: you need to go from there, rather than just assuming 864 00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,840 Speaker 1: it can't work because of some story you're telling yourself 865 00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:54,040 Speaker 1: that you absolutely have to be home when your kids 866 00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:55,840 Speaker 1: get off the bus or else you're a bad parent, 867 00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,400 Speaker 1: which I think is a good story that's going there. Yeah, 868 00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:00,239 Speaker 1: I'm gonna throw in one other thing that I've I 869 00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:02,480 Speaker 1: thought of as I'm listening to this in the newness, 870 00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,520 Speaker 1: which is that perhaps they if they did decide that, 871 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:07,959 Speaker 1: you know, the kids are better off having a parent 872 00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:10,600 Speaker 1: home twice a week, that could be her once a 873 00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:13,120 Speaker 1: week and her husband once a week. So perhaps she 874 00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,040 Speaker 1: could find a dream job or use pto where she 875 00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,160 Speaker 1: leaves work early a couple of one one day a week, 876 00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:20,960 Speaker 1: you know, and then maybe he could leave one day 877 00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,480 Speaker 1: a week, and then they've gotten the same kind of 878 00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,080 Speaker 1: balance that they have with this current set up without 879 00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:28,880 Speaker 1: well that as much of a sacrifice. So that was 880 00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,319 Speaker 1: one other, yeah idea, and it's one of those also 881 00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:32,960 Speaker 1: ones where you want to do the gender flip and 882 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,160 Speaker 1: see how this would sound if a dad was writing it, 883 00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,080 Speaker 1: And I can't really picture that. Yeah. And I also, 884 00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:40,520 Speaker 1: I mean, her idea that she's somehow hurting her children 885 00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:42,480 Speaker 1: by having them with three hours with the sitter. Now, 886 00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:46,399 Speaker 1: I just I have trouble seeing this. I mean, these 887 00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:49,160 Speaker 1: kids are so incredibly lucky to have two loving, caring 888 00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:52,399 Speaker 1: and employed parents. I mean, I really don't think it's 889 00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:54,800 Speaker 1: the three hours at the sitter is one way or 890 00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:58,120 Speaker 1: another in the whole grand scheme of things. So anyway, 891 00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,080 Speaker 1: this has been best of both worlds. We've been talking 892 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,680 Speaker 1: with Jimma Hartley about emotional labor, so tune in next 893 00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:05,840 Speaker 1: week for more on making work and life fit together. 894 00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:11,920 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the 895 00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:16,680 Speaker 1: shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, 896 00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:21,000 Speaker 1: and you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. 897 00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:24,319 Speaker 1: This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please 898 00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,000 Speaker 1: join us next time for more on making work and 899 00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:28,200 Speaker 1: life work together.