1 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome in. This is all ball, all basketball, all 2 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: the time. Most of this pot is going to focus 3 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:18,080 Speaker 1: on um, Michael Jordan's The Last Dance and the new 4 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:21,920 Speaker 1: Dream Team Tapes, part of the Dream Team Tapes podcast, 5 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: which is also available through your I Heart Radio app, which, 6 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: by the way, you can download my radio show. Listen 7 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: my radio show daily on the I Heart Radio app. 8 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: So most of this podcast can be dedicated to that. 9 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: We're gonna have a later podcast, hopefully later this week, 10 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:40,840 Speaker 1: on Eddie Sutton playing for Eddie Sutton Coaching with Eddie Sutton. 11 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 1: What he was like? He passed away at the age 12 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:51,559 Speaker 1: of on Saturday night, and um, look full disclosure, I 13 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: you know, it was just I had gotten I had 14 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: been updated as to his health and that his health 15 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: was failing, going back about a week. Oh and then 16 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,399 Speaker 1: he went mm hmmm, I think four or five days 17 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 1: without eating before he ultimately passed. And what happens if 18 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: you've ever had a loved one die in there, you know, 19 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:14,039 Speaker 1: eighties or nineties whatever, It's just at some point your 20 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: body just shuts down, and you know, everybody in the 21 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: room looks around and says, this is terrible, but like 22 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: the body is saying it's time. And that's really what 23 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 1: happened with Coach Sutton. You know, It's just he was 24 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 1: doing so well and then his his body just said 25 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: that's enough. And I would like to think and I 26 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 1: do believe that getting into the Hall of Fame was 27 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: what he was living for, you know, because when every 28 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: time we go see him, you know, you'd get one 29 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 1: of his family members would say, like, you know, he's 30 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: really kind of struggling. And there were times in which 31 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: he just you talked to him and he didn't do 32 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: you want to go on. You didn't want to do 33 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: the rehab, He didn't want to keep pushing, and you 34 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: know like at some point your your wife died. His 35 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: wife died seven years ago. Like what am I living for? 36 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: You know? I think he lived for the Hall of Fame. 37 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: So I'm so happy that he got in and now 38 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: he'll get to enjoy the induction alongside his wife Patsy. 39 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 1: People ask all the time, why is it that you're 40 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 1: so uh loyal to him? And I would tell you 41 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: that I did not have the perfect experience playing for him, 42 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: Like I didn't achieve my own personal goals or my 43 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:26,119 Speaker 1: team's goals. I don't blame him for either. Actually, um, 44 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 1: that's one of the things that he taught us is 45 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,079 Speaker 1: that like, hey, end of the day, you've got to 46 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: be accountable for yourself. And you know, look, could I 47 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: have could? Could I have had a better working relationship 48 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: with him when I played for him? And I think 49 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:46,639 Speaker 1: had I had an open like at forty four years old, 50 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: I would have an open conversation about, hey, coach, just 51 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: tell me the shots you wow me to take. I'll 52 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:53,959 Speaker 1: take those and I won't take in the others. And 53 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 1: then you won't take me out if I missed the 54 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: ones that you want me to take. Right, we have, 55 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: We had a healthy back and forth like that. I 56 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: never would have. I think I would have shot the 57 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 1: ball much better. I would have played much better. But 58 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 1: and he wouldn't have had he would have had less 59 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:10,239 Speaker 1: worry about I'd have less to worry about. So but 60 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: but but again, twenty years later, which that's what this is, 61 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: twenty years later, I look back and I'm like, that 62 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: was on me. I wasn't mature enough. I wasn't I 63 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: didn't have enough faith to myself to know what I 64 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: could do, know what I was capable of and either 65 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: do it or tell coach, this is what I'm gonna do, 66 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 1: and let's work together on it. And of the things 67 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: that he taught us, being accountable for your own problems, 68 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: for your own shortcomings, it is uh is. The only 69 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: way to get better is to say it ain't about him, 70 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: it ain't about him, It's about me. Starts with me. 71 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: And that's kind of how I've lived my life like 72 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean I've lived a mistake for your life. 73 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: I've done all kinds of stupid stuff and made all 74 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: kinds of mistakes, and I do know when I've been 75 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: done wrong or felt like I was misperceived, whatever. But 76 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: I'm also willing to at least admit admit that when 77 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 1: I've done something wrong or done a bunch of things wrong, 78 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: or my level of my level of blame, that I 79 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: should accept within something that has gone astray. Fare of 80 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: the reasons that I really admired him as a coach 81 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: and as a person was that he taught and lived 82 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: and understood the idea of accountability. So accountability is obviously 83 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: huge in terms of what made Aednie Sutton special. I 84 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 1: also thought there was kind of relatability right, and he 85 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 1: he did find ways to relate to you to know 86 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: what was going on in your life. He felt like 87 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 1: he was he was your dad. You know. They would 88 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:42,359 Speaker 1: do some kind of clever things, these things called do 89 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: better talks to You come in and sit down in 90 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: a chair in front of him, and you have a 91 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 1: all the assistant coaches lined up and they would be 92 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 1: researching your grades, your girls, your how what your living situation, 93 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: everything and pick you apart. And then he would kind 94 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 1: of bring it all together and try and make you 95 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 1: feel better about yourself after those guys completely demolished you 96 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: and tore you down. So um. Look, he was fascinating 97 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: the way in which he ran a program. But I 98 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: guess you know, if you say, well, you didn't get 99 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 1: the personal success you want, Okay, maybe it was the 100 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: personal success I want. Maybe it's a personal success I needed. 101 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,919 Speaker 1: He he did allow us to be individuals. Like guys 102 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: didn't have to wear the team. Shoot, you ever had 103 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 1: a guy. We didn't have to wear suits and ties 104 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: on the road like we're a basketball team. You know 105 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:30,599 Speaker 1: how you're supposed to dress and you're supposed to carry 106 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: yourself Like I act like he kind of been there before. 107 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: But look, I don't even long as you play hard. 108 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: I don't just wear nikes. Was it wear nikes? I 109 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 1: don't really care otherwise, And you can talk to manager 110 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: and order new the shoes that you want. Fine, you 111 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: know it doesn't He did not sweat the petty stuff, 112 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: so I like they didn't sweat the petty stuff. I 113 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: liked that he was relatable. I liked how his the 114 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: main emphasis of everything he did was about effort, you know, 115 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,280 Speaker 1: right when I coach kids, now, we coached effort, playing 116 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 1: as hard as you can, as long as you can. Um. 117 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 1: But I think more than anything, it was the type 118 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: of guy that we had, like all of our guys 119 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: for the most part, Like we got a couple of 120 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: strays that we've kind of lost touch with. Most of 121 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: our guys are really good guys, and I don't I 122 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: think I know that actually was part of their recruiting philosophy, right, 123 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: Like you'd allow the players to pick if they didn't 124 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: want to offer somebody a scholarship, like, man, he just 125 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:32,160 Speaker 1: doesn't fit. Sorry, coach, you just saying our type of dude. Um. 126 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: Maybe some of it's that, Maybe it's their own intuition 127 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: knowing what fits and still water and what does not. 128 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: You know, maybe it's a question of who they could get, 129 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: but I gotta tell you it's one of those. And 130 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: and there's a bunch of programs like this. I don't 131 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: want to say Oklahoma State is like you. When I 132 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 1: hang around the Goodzaga guys, right, hang around the Butler guys, 133 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: R hang around the old Indiana guys right, hang around um. 134 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: You know, you go through the kind of laundry list 135 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 1: of really good programs that you had thought you would like, 136 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: you end up loving. Like man, those are the best 137 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: dudes ever. And I think that's part of what he grew, 138 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 1: what he fostered, the relationships that he built, our ability. 139 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: You know, they would make things happen for us so 140 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: that we could live together and off campus apartments and 141 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: hang out together. And you know, we we we did 142 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: some team bonding stuff that wasn't we weren't doing ropes courses. 143 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: We'd have to do five miles of five in the morning, 144 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: but it worked. I think I just love the program. 145 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: I loved his commitment to fundamentals, to how hard we played, 146 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: the respect that he carried, the pride that he carried 147 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: with with himself. I don't know, He's just he was 148 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: a for an older guy who was very cool and 149 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: very relatable and very very likable and uh and crazy demanding. 150 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: We're not crazy, man, just demanding. And then every once 151 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: in a while he would say you did a hell 152 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: of a job, and you would feel so good about 153 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: yourself because he was not a man of a thousand compliments. 154 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: All right, well, we'll we'll post another pod here and 155 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: try and do something cool. And on the passing of 156 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:00,080 Speaker 1: Ednie Sutton, let's get into the Dream Team stuff. Okay, 157 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 1: so you've seen the Last Dance. We've had podcast on 158 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: that since the last Dance and as ended, people have 159 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: come out and taken pot shots at it. One of 160 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: the big storylines was Isaiah Thomas not being invited onto 161 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: the Dream Team. Jack McCollum has the Dream Team tapes, 162 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: he wrote the Dream Team book. He knows about this 163 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: team front, Sideways and Center. Let's welcome him him. He's 164 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: famous writer sports illustrate national bestsellers as well as he 165 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: joins us in the all ballpot. Be sure to catch 166 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: the live edition of The Doug Gottlieb Show weekdays at 167 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: three p m. Easter noon Pacific on Fox Sports Radio 168 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 1: and the I Heart Radio AH app. Let's welcome him 169 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: and he he has these tapes that everyone is talking about. 170 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: There's a podcast coming out, uh that that that has 171 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 1: these tapes. He's Jack McCallum, a long time decorated sports 172 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: uh sports author, I mean you go back to he 173 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: was a sports illustrate writer New York Times bestseller. Of course, 174 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: he covered the Dream Team in ninety two, and that's 175 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: where the tapes emanate from. Jack. How are you? I'm 176 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: doing okay? How are you not as not as good 177 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: as you? Everyone is talking about about you, about this 178 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: upcoming podcast about these tapes? Um, talk to me about 179 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 1: the tapes like you just this is just from covering 180 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: the team tapes that you had kept with a special 181 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: USA Basketball tapes. Where the tapes come from, Well, fortunately, 182 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 1: even though I can't you know, if you asked me 183 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,439 Speaker 1: for yesterday's shopping list, I can't find it. But when 184 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 1: I when I did the research my Dream Team book 185 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: that came out in two thousand twelve, I had basically 186 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: done the audio the taping of all the guys pretty 187 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: much two thousand two, two thousand eleven. I had a 188 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: couple of old tapes from but they were even you 189 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: know less audible worthy condition. But these things were all good. 190 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:51,559 Speaker 1: I taped them on an old radio shack computer a 191 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: radio shack tape recorder, and uh so when I put 192 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: the book together, I used them. And then somebody was 193 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: going to make a documentary about the Dream Team for 194 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: various reasons that the whole other story that kind of 195 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: fell apart. But then myself and Scott Waxman, who's head 196 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: a Diversion Books and Podcasts, thought hey, this would make 197 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: a good podcast. And the power of the podcast was 198 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: not me, you know, reiterating the book or reading the book. 199 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: The power of it, I hope comes from the fact 200 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: that I have these guys voices. So there ergo the 201 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 1: dream Team tapes and suddenly the one with with Michael 202 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: and Isaiah has uh you know, sort of caused Uh 203 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: that's why you're talking to me. Let's face it. Um, yeah, yeah, 204 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 1: I mean there's there's a multitude of reasons. Okay, so 205 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:45,199 Speaker 1: the Michael and Isaiah tape, it was actually not Michael 206 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: Isaiah though saying that Jordan didn't want Isaiah. Correct, Oh, no, 207 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 1: it's Michael. I went, you know, the story to this 208 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,079 Speaker 1: kind of a long one. I when the story first 209 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 1: came out when back in someone told me not Michael. 210 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 1: But one of the story angles was would Michael play 211 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 1: with Isaiah if Isaiah were selected? And you know I 212 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: wrote back then that, you know, Michael said, no, I 213 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: don't want to. I don't want to play what I 214 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 1: share And an unimpeachable source told me that, and then 215 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 1: I wrote it in the book. Michael's always danced around 216 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: it for a variety of reasons. We can we can 217 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 1: talk about. I mean, he's kind of danced around it. 218 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: He danced around it on the on the last dance tapes. 219 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: But when I went to interview him for the book, 220 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: I was trying to figure out, you know, you've done interviews. 221 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: You got to try to figure out how to get 222 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: to the good stuff. When do I bring it up? 223 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:44,679 Speaker 1: Do I do it early? And Michael brought it up himself. 224 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: And the way he brought it up was that John 225 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: Stockton had gotten hurt during the Dream Team experience while 226 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 1: they were qualifying im Portland's there became a question is 227 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: whether or not they were going to have to replace him. 228 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: Michael said, I was afraid that get Isaiah to replace John. 229 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 1: And then he told me because in the beginning I 230 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: had told Rod Horn, that's that's who called Michael about it, 231 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:12,959 Speaker 1: that I didn't want to play if I say it 232 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 1: was on the team. So Michael, you know, kind of 233 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: brought it up himself and it sort of startled me. 234 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: But you know, sometimes you get lucky, So there it is, 235 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: um okay. But I thought that to me, the most 236 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 1: maybe not the most surprise the bomb shell to me 237 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 1: is that Chuck Daly also didn't want Isaiah. When Chuck 238 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: Daily didn't want Isaiah was because it meant he wouldn't 239 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 1: have Jordan's was because he didn't enjoy Isaiah's company? Like 240 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: why why could that? To me, I think everyone knew 241 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: that Jordan on some level didn't want him. Um, but 242 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: the Chuck Daily element to it is maybe the more 243 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:55,079 Speaker 1: surprising one. Well, I totally agree with you, and that's 244 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: what's been the most surprising to me about it. Would 245 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: we would we be surprised if Jordan didn't want him? 246 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: Wouldn't we be surprised? You know? So? I think the 247 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: one misunderstanding that a lot of para Isaiah people have, 248 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 1: and I understand, you know, Isaiah certainly had a case 249 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: to be on the Dream Team, but it wasn't like 250 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: the team was picked and Jordan came along Ago, Oh no, no, no, 251 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 1: I'm not going. You know, the team wasn't picked. If 252 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: they had certain guys. Chuck Daily had certain guys he wanted. 253 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: They began with Jordan's. They went to Pippen because of 254 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: his defense. They went to Chris Mullen because of his shooting. 255 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: They went to David Robinson because of his center athleticism. 256 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: So there was this group of guys that everybody wanted, 257 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 1: probably Charles Barkley because of his you know, he just 258 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: we were going to be unstoppable. Isaiah was not in 259 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: that group of guys, so he never really had any traction. 260 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: And part of the reason that Jordan has always been 261 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: piste off when it's been brought up, was Okay, I 262 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: said I didn't want them, but nobody else. Nobody else. 263 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: The magic Magic was his best friend, and they had 264 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 1: a falling out when Magic had HIV and and he 265 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 1: told people that you know, Magic might be gay or whatever. 266 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: I mean, that's the the unreported stuff is like, okay, yeah, 267 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: Jordan's and maybe this is where Jordan looks good. True, 268 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 1: he did not accept responsibility for being you know, the 269 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: figurehead that said I don't want Isaiah, but he also, 270 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: in doing that, didn't have to throw everybody under the 271 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: bus by saying, hey, I'm not the only one right. 272 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: That to me is the take. But that's not the 273 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: one because I don't know this. You weren't good. You know, 274 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: they didn't pull everybody. But if you went to Pippin, 275 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: who really didn't have much of a voice. But if 276 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: you went to Charles Pippen, probably Bird, although Bird manages 277 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: to keep himself out of any kind of political destructions. 278 00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: I don't know what Magic would have said, but it 279 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: turned out in retrospect that Magic was, you know, at 280 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: this point, despite what he said publicly at the time, 281 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: was in a falling out situation with Isaiah. Chuck Daily 282 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: whether or not he thought, I think it was probably Yeah, 283 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 1: Michael doesn't want him. I'm not gonna win this argument, 284 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: and tht was I don't think he's the right exact 285 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 1: guy anyway. And the other part of this is that 286 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: every time we talked about my God, Isaiah should be 287 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: on the team, we're presumably saying John Stockton should not, 288 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: because besides Christian Laytner, the one guy you would logically 289 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 1: not have if you had Isaiah would be John st 290 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: John Stockton was pretty good. No, he was the best 291 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: point at that point in time, he was the better player, 292 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: He was the best. He was the best point guard 293 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: in the league at that Now, now to me, you're 294 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 1: hitting on the key point, which was Bill Lambier said 295 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: to me the smartest thing to anybody said, which was 296 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: if that team had had been picked a year earlier 297 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: or two years earlier, could they have kept Isaiah off 298 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: the team. He's in the middle of winning two straight championships. 299 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: He's a kg veteran player. But things happened fast in sports, 300 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: you know this. Things happened really really quickly. And over 301 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: those months Equet when they were picking the team, which 302 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: was basically May, June, July, August of the league had flipped. 303 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: It was it was Jordan's league. The Pistons suddenly were 304 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: pass I'm not saying it's completely fair. That's just the 305 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: way it was. Jack Daily read the room. A bunch 306 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: of people read the room. So it wasn't only Jordan's 307 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: Jack McCallum joining us. The Dream Team tapes are said 308 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 1: to come out in podcast form care of of all 309 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: of us here at at I Heart what else. I mean, 310 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: that's the smoking gun because of Jordan's What else are 311 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: people going to most learn about the Dream Team because 312 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 1: of the tapes of Jet Well? I I thought the 313 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:12,120 Speaker 1: other interesting thing was kind of a subtle I don't 314 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 1: want to say, yeah, I'm going to say battle for leadership, 315 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: the subtle sort of dou of leadership between U Magic 316 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,439 Speaker 1: and Michael. I mean there was sort of Magic at 317 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: that time. Uh, you know, had already retired once because 318 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 1: of HIV. He came back. We all know he was 319 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:30,880 Speaker 1: still a pretty good player, but not at the top 320 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,160 Speaker 1: of this game. So he and Larry Bird were sort 321 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 1: of the ceremonial picks and and should be there, by 322 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: the way, I mean, the two best ceremonial picks in history. 323 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: But Magic being Magic kind of you know, I mean 324 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:47,479 Speaker 1: he came into the league as a CEO when he 325 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 1: was wanting you know, that's the way he looked at things. 326 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:54,120 Speaker 1: This is my team, these are my guys. Uh, this 327 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,640 Speaker 1: is how we're gonna do it. I'll take care of this, 328 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: follow me, jump on my back, and at that time, 329 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: I'm uh, ceremonially, ceremonially Lylee, he was the best guy 330 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: to do that. But the real leader of the team 331 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:13,439 Speaker 1: was Michael was Jordan's and Chuck Daily very early, you know, 332 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: had a conversation with Michael Magic and Larry, and Larry 333 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: right away said, you know, I don't care let Magic 334 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 1: do all the ceremonial stuff. And Michael said, look, let 335 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 1: me step back a little bit. Um let Magic and 336 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 1: Larry do it. But but I'm still kind of the guy. 337 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 1: And there were several times and a couple of players 338 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: spoke to it on the Dream Team tape, spoke to 339 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:44,640 Speaker 1: this sort of subtle little leadership battle between Michael and Magic, 340 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: and it certainly was brought fourth in this famous UH 341 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: inter squad scrimmage that they had in UH in Bonne 342 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: Carlo when Magic team went against Michael's team. So I 343 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: think that's a good subplot of the whole thing. Also, 344 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: I also thought, and I have a relationship with Charles Barkley, 345 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: and I think they touched on it some. I felt 346 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: like Jordan was trying, he tried to make a point 347 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: like Clyde was kind of there on vacation, and this 348 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: is after losing in the finals to to Michael Um 349 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 1: and I felt like, yeah, you can tell me if 350 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:17,360 Speaker 1: I'm wrong, and you were you know you were there 351 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: and you have the tapes. But it was relayed to 352 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 1: me that Jordan's wanted to wanted to completely separate himself 353 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,239 Speaker 1: from anybody discussing Clyde, and he took it upon himself too, 354 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: as often as possible humiliate Clyde in practice, whereas Clyde 355 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 1: was just hey man, see'all season, we're gonna win this 356 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 1: thing by forty, Clyde was was was being Clyde. Is 357 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:42,439 Speaker 1: that accurate? That's fair, That's pretty accurate, and what happened 358 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,399 Speaker 1: there's a little outside story for that. Also. You know, 359 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 1: when they announced the team in the fall of September 360 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,360 Speaker 1: or later Augus, they can't remember now, they only announced 361 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: claimed guys and they were gonna leave two picks because 362 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,360 Speaker 1: they were still kind of fighting about how many college 363 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: guys we're going to be honest, This thing started, believe 364 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,640 Speaker 1: it or not, with oh, let's have eight pros and 365 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: four college guys, and then it started to become a 366 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 1: wait a minute, uh, you know, Patrick Ewing is not 367 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,120 Speaker 1: good about to be on here, and it quickly went 368 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: to ten to two, and then they were sort of 369 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 1: there and they decided, well, let's name the ten guys 370 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: and then we'll name two more right before the NBA playoffs. 371 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: I thought it was a really stupid, you know, brainless idea. 372 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,959 Speaker 1: And in May they named Clyde player number eleven, and 373 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 1: they named uh, you know, player number twelve, the one 374 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:40,199 Speaker 1: college kid. So then the finals come and you know, 375 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:45,919 Speaker 1: Michael just dusts Drexler in the finals, which were in Portland's. 376 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: So there was this lingering Jordan's Drexler duel, and I 377 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:56,919 Speaker 1: think Clyde really felt, you know, sort of. When I 378 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: went to talk to him about the book, Um, this 379 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:01,399 Speaker 1: is the their tape that had made a lot of 380 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: controversy back then, Clyde begins on this thing about I 381 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:07,640 Speaker 1: can't remember the question I asked him, but Clyde goes, 382 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: wait a minute, do I think Jordan was better than me? 383 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:15,400 Speaker 1: I was bigger, faster, stronger. All he could do better 384 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: than me was shoot more. And I was like flabbergaston. Yeah. 385 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: It was like, you know, I know players have and 386 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:29,239 Speaker 1: they should play with confidence and play with ego and 387 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: believe you're the best player in the world. What I 388 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: mean at that point when I talked to him two 389 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: thousand and eleven, I mean, would anybody in the world 390 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,640 Speaker 1: have had that take, you know, so there was always 391 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: that little uh interplay between them, and Jordan's just kind 392 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 1: of just destroyed him at practice and Clyde. The only 393 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 1: thing I would say on the other side was that 394 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: Clyde did have bad knees. Uh. Clyde went back and 395 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: actually got stoked. And every time at practice we couldn't 396 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 1: watch practice by the way I had to we construct this. Uh. 397 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: Jordan really went at Drexler. And the other interesting paint 398 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: was Charles and Karl Malone. From one aspect them going 399 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 1: on each other, Yeah, and they it was a little more. 400 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: It was certainly friendlier. I mean, I know now that 401 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: they're you know, they have a lot of mutual respect 402 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: and uh. But there was an argument. I mean, I 403 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 1: guess you would have agree with that. You could have 404 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,400 Speaker 1: an argument as to if we declare Barkley of power forward. 405 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 1: You know, by his size, he could be a shooting guard. 406 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: But you know who's the better between them? And I 407 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 1: believe it or not. The best court I ever got 408 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 1: about that was from Drexler, who was because I made 409 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: the usual thing, what if Charles had trained the way 410 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: Karl had? What I saw Karl Malone got like three 411 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: and a half hour straight on a StairMaster. It was 412 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 1: a puddle. I was waiting an interview at one time. 413 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: There was like a two inch puddle of sweat underneath 414 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,199 Speaker 1: that guy. I never saw anything like it anyway. And 415 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: Clyde said, you know, you could say that, but if 416 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: you if Charles was exactly like Carl and trained the 417 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 1: way he did and approached the game the way he did, 418 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 1: then he wouldn't have been Charles. He wouldn't have had 419 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 1: this aspect of creativity. He didn't use his words in 420 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: this aspect of volatility. I thought that was a really 421 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 1: interesting observation that every time you try to, you know, 422 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 1: break something down into its most literal parts, a lot 423 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: of times that's not what matters. And when those two 424 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: were together, you just looked at him and you went, well, 425 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 1: Charles was better. I don't know why. Charles was better, 426 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 1: just the same as as Michael Overclyde, Michael was better. Yeah, yeah, 427 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: I mean it really really really competed to do. Dudes, 428 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:06,880 Speaker 1: m did they genuinely like each other as a team? 429 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 1: They did the last interview I did. I did uh 430 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: in the book for various reasons. I don't know why 431 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 1: I had so much trouble getting Larry Bird. But the 432 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 1: book was almost finished. It was what they call galleys 433 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: when they don't really want to make a lot of changes. 434 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 1: So I ended up I still hadn't gotten Larry, and 435 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: I end up getting him by telling you I was 436 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: going in for a cancer operation and if I die 437 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: on the table, my last thought is going to be 438 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 1: the bird didn't talk to me for this book. That 439 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: happened to be true, all right. So I ended up 440 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 1: talking to him, and Bird was the only one that 441 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: said to me, you know, if this thing went on 442 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:52,400 Speaker 1: another two weeks, we were beginning to unravel a little bit. 443 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: That's not the word he used, but he began to 444 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 1: hear a little complaints. He began to hear a little 445 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 1: Oh he played ten minutes and uh, you know I 446 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: only played uh this many minutes. And Bird was the 447 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: only one to say that to me. And as I said, 448 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: he was the last interview. The book was all but done. 449 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: But everybody else kind of I think, uh, that kind 450 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 1: of speaks for the time a little bit, Doug speaks 451 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 1: to the times. I don't think these guys knew each 452 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:27,119 Speaker 1: other the way that you know, Durant and Lebron and 453 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 1: Blaine Wade and kind of this friendship of superstars exist. 454 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 1: Now you know, it wasn't the same thing. Like I 455 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: remember David Robinson told me, I didn't even know Carl 456 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,639 Speaker 1: I hated Karl Malone. I didn't know Karl Malone. I 457 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: didn't hang out with Karl Malone. All I knew him 458 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,880 Speaker 1: was a division rival. And all these guys that everybody 459 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: said beside Magic, I didn't know Larry Bird. I didn't 460 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 1: know he had any kind of sense to you. I 461 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 1: didn't know I'd want to hang out with Larry Bird. 462 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: So there was that element to the whole thing that 463 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,640 Speaker 1: really bound those guys together. They enjoyed playing with each other. 464 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:08,119 Speaker 1: Everybody people sacrifice their game. There was no problem on 465 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: the court. So beside that little thing Bird said about it, 466 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 1: because that sound really interesting. Uh, they were all pretty 467 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 1: much this was kind of a comby moment in all 468 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: of their careers, So they spoke pretty positively about it. Uh. 469 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: The last thing, how did you think that Michael Jordans 470 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 1: came off in the in the last dance? Just this 471 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: thought he came off impossibly Uh jordanisque And with all 472 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 1: that means, uh, with all the positive and all the 473 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,919 Speaker 1: the negatives that implies. You know, Michael was I mean 474 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 1: I dealt with him a lot. I dealt with him 475 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: early Michael and later Michael. And one of the things 476 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: that I've always thought was that magic. If you took 477 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,160 Speaker 1: Magic and Larry, Magic came into the wig and went 478 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 1: out basically the same way. Larry came into the leg 479 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: and went out in basically the same way. I talk 480 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: in personality, the way they view the world, the way 481 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: they threw the people. Michael was completely different. I mean, 482 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: Michael was a kid. He was I couldn't. I mean, 483 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: I was lucky because he liked to get his mug 484 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:27,159 Speaker 1: on the cover of SI. But after and you know, 485 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,400 Speaker 1: that first retirement and the gambling accusations and all that, 486 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 1: he became a little bit of a different person, a 487 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 1: little bit more of a hard ass, a little more stubborn, 488 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: a little bit more by way or the highway. Uh. 489 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: And so the Jordan that came across in the documentary 490 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: was that Michael. And this is just personal. I you know, 491 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,439 Speaker 1: I can't you know, I'm not his brother or his 492 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 1: father or that close to him anymore. I wish I 493 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,199 Speaker 1: would have seen a little more of the early Michael, 494 00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: the kid, uh, you know, the full kid who looked 495 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 1: at this is a lot of fun and and realized 496 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,879 Speaker 1: that through dint of yes, talent and tenacity that was 497 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: part of it. But when he came along and and 498 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: the cultural moments that he had, that he can enjoy them, 499 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 1: uh a little more. And that's just a personal observation. 500 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: He doesn't have to comport his life any you know, 501 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: any different because of me. What did you think? I 502 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: thought the same? I mean you start to wonder if 503 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: the world changed him or if he changed before the world. 504 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: And I would say it's a little bit of both, 505 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 1: right and nature is of nurture. Uh. You know, you 506 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: become this superstar, so you have to be a bit 507 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: of a recluse. You become a recluse and you you 508 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: stop trusting people what their intentions are. You become close 509 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 1: to security guards instead of and you know those are 510 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: paid friends, you know. And you know it's a little 511 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: like Kobe, right. We Kobe has passed away, but a 512 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: lot of our lens now Kobe is a lot gentler, 513 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 1: a lot nicer because he was so classy and had 514 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 1: really grown up and matured and became a businessman in 515 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 1: his short time post career before he passed away. Whereas 516 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: Kobe was, people didn't like Kobe when he was in 517 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: the guys didn't like Kobe was in league, and now 518 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: he's like beloved And it's interesting, like what snapshot of 519 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: time do you see a guy and when don't you 520 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: remember him last? And I don't know if you know this, 521 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: this this uh, this kind of dour sort of presence 522 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: is how you would have looked at Jordan's had you 523 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: simply had tapes of the first run, the first you know, 524 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: before he went to bait as you know, like he like, 525 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: really he's mad at baseball because he missed. He's mad 526 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: at sports, illustrated because he missed a pitch by two 527 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 1: feet and they put it on the cover, Like come on, man, 528 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: you never had you had everybody. It's it's interesting. I 529 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: thought of that too. You mentioned Kobe and part of 530 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: the reason they they are I don't know too similar 531 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: more and you were a basketball how you can evaluate 532 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 1: this better than I can. But they were the same guy. 533 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: They were an assassin on the court. They were a scorer. 534 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 1: That's it, That's what they were, right. They going to 535 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 1: score the basketball. There are two of the most similar 536 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,719 Speaker 1: guys I've ever seen. They were looked at very similarly. 537 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 1: I don't think Kobe early in his career, I mean 538 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: later his career, just like Michael, probably wasn't as popular. 539 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: What changed with Kobe as time went on. And part 540 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: of the reason we mourned this horrible, horrible tragedy that 541 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: in which what nine people were killed, was that Kobe 542 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: had softened and Kobe had become a father. And the one, 543 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 1: the one thing that I was screaming for more on 544 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 1: that documentary was when Michael's sons came on, Marcus and 545 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: Jeffrey Michael, they like brightened up the screen, right, you 546 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: remember that the last episode, they were looked like they 547 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: had been, you know, kept in a room and all 548 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 1: of a sudden, we're gonna let him in and they're 549 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 1: gonna fill this room. And so that's what we didn't 550 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 1: see from Michael. And that's okay if you're going to 551 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: protect your family. But there were two times in the documentary. 552 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: One was his own father, which should have absolutely showed 553 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 1: what important father figure James was to him, what a 554 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 1: tragedy that was. But then there was another part when 555 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: we talked about the security guard being a second father 556 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: to him. Well, if you're going to have father figures, 557 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 1: I would have liked to have seen a little bit 558 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: of Michael being a father and that would have been 559 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 1: very very important to uh, you know, changing the image. 560 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 1: But hey, look, I'm not you know, I'm not Michael's imagemaker. 561 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 1: He is who he is, and to me, he came 562 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: across as who he is on that on the documentary, 563 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: the second part of like what he was after he 564 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: had become a little bit more of a hardened uh 565 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 1: semi recluse, will put it that way. Awesome stuff, Jack, 566 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 1: I really appreciate your time. I know you're super busy. 567 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: We can't wait. Do we hear these tapes on the 568 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 1: podcast Dream Teacher out? They are out now. That's the 569 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: first uh three episodes on. I don't know whether I 570 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 1: say the name of a radio company, and well you 571 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: can get him anywhere you get my heart right, you're 572 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 1: it's with its combination for my heart? Is it not there? 573 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 1: Where you go? So where we are? We are? I heard. 574 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: So you are allowed. We wouldn't have you on, I 575 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: mean we'd have you on anyway, but we're allowed to 576 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 1: promote you we're all kind of same dysfunctional family. Jacket 577 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 1: is an honor and a pleasure. I appreciate you joining 578 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 1: us in the All Ball podcast. Hey, thanks for having 579 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: see Be sure to catch the live edition of The 580 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 1: Doug Gottlieb Show weekdays at three pm Easter noon Pacific. 581 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 1: Well that's obviously fascinating stuff. Thanks so much to Jack 582 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: McCallum for joining us. You can download that podcast in 583 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app. You can also listen to 584 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 1: my radio show, The Doug Gotlip Show daily three to 585 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 1: sixty Eastern twelve through Pacific on that same I Heart 586 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: Radio app. Um, Look my my thoughts are I've shared 587 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 1: this with you before, this canonizing of Isaiah Thomas, like 588 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: he was done wrong? Like I don't know. I thought 589 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 1: Jordan's said it best. Winning has a price, And because 590 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: of how Isaiah went about his winning, because of some 591 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 1: of the things he said about other people, his price 592 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 1: was he didn't get to be on the Dream Team. 593 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: Pretty simple, you know, when he trade in those two 594 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 1: championship rings, first shot of the Dream Team. No so 595 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: but winning for him? How to how to price? That 596 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: was the price? It wasn't was it? Jordan's Yes, it 597 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 1: wasn't just Jordan's. And when your own head coach allows 598 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: that to happen, and Jack McCluskey was his GM allowed 599 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: that to happen, it tells you all that you need 600 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 1: to know about how Isaiah Thomas was really really viewed. 601 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 1: You know, this is like when your boss comes to 602 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: you and tells you that you're essential, You're you're an 603 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: essential worker, and then all of a sudden they hand 604 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 1: out the essential worker badges and you don't get when 605 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 1: you like, hey, you set up as an essential worker, 606 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 1: Like yeah, I don't know, we ran out the badges. No, 607 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: you're just not really that essential. It sucks. It sucks 608 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: Risa to hear that that. Now only did Jordan not 609 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: like him, but magic And you know Chuck Daily didn't 610 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 1: want him on the team either, Like that stinks. But 611 00:33:58,440 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: don't ask the question you don't want to hear the 612 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 1: answer to. He got his answer. He got his answer. 613 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 1: I still can't believe that Scotti Pippen doesn't like the 614 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 1: depiction of him, Like what don't you like you're a 615 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 1: sympathetic figure? Rags to Richest story. They didn't talk about 616 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 1: Madonna or any of the women, like didn't do any 617 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: of that. It was it was about your contract that 618 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 1: it was about the things that you did where you 619 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 1: you know you wouldn't go back in the game, and 620 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: you say you do it all over a game, do 621 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,799 Speaker 1: the exact same thing, and then you know you didn't 622 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 1: get surgery till you're until after the summer was over, 623 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 1: and you you told us the reason for that was 624 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 1: you want to have a great summer. Like the only 625 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:39,880 Speaker 1: damage done to Scottie Pippen was done by Scottie Pippen 626 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:43,880 Speaker 1: is not by Scottie Pippen. I hope you enjoyed it. 627 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 1: I thought Jack was great. Be listening for that next podcast, 628 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 1: we'll talk more about Eddie Sudden, eighty four years old, 629 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 1: passed away Saturday night in Tulsa. Keep in mind he 630 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 1: was never an assistant coach ever. But maybe I'll just 631 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 1: do all of his sayings for like forty minutes next 632 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 1: time and see how that goes over. I'm Doug Gottlick. 633 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:03,759 Speaker 1: This is all ball