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Speaker 1: Hi there, it's Steve Fishman of Orbit Media. I'm really

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Speaker 1: happy to share with you this bonus episode of Death

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Speaker 1: and Deceit and Alliance. Maggie's going to be answering questions

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Speaker 1: about the show and about our life too. So we're

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Speaker 1: talking drugs, though not in the way you're thinking. And

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Speaker 1: another thing in the bonus episode, Maggie's invited along one

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Speaker 1: of her private investigators from this podcast, Danny Wexler. It's

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Speaker 1: a pretty intimate conversation and there's a bunch of laughter

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Speaker 1: and a bunch of kind of fun. I think we

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Speaker 1: cut out the part about the tacos, but at heart

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Speaker 1: there's a serious topic at hand. I think the episode

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Speaker 1: is really about work. It's about how you do it,

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Speaker 1: how you invest in it, and how you suffer for it.

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Speaker 1: All right, Maggie, Danny. Oh and by the way, as always,

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Speaker 1: you can hear this episode ad free by subscribing to

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Speaker 1: True Crime Clubhouse on Apple. What medication stops you from

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Speaker 1: feeling lexipro?

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Speaker 2: Wellbutrin xanax.

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Speaker 3: There's a cocktail, yes, and I still somehow the emotions

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Speaker 3: slipped through, So is that right?

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Speaker 1: So? Wait, you were you were doing that cocktail during

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Speaker 1: the Avonne investigation.

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Speaker 3: That cocktail started, which I'm always open about. In grad school,

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Speaker 3: I had a complete crash out in grad school. I

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Speaker 3: was so overwhelmed. I had a full on anxiety panic

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Speaker 3: attack that put me in the hospital. And they were like, oh,

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Speaker 3: you're not having a heart attack, You're just really overwhelmed.

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Speaker 2: Maybe you should probably take some medication.

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Speaker 3: So my third semester in grad school, so I just

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Speaker 3: told my students, like, it's real. Pressure is real, being

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Speaker 3: overwhelmed is real. Do what you gotta do for me.

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Speaker 3: It was a cocktail of medication.

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Speaker 1: Wow, thank you for me for sharing. That's amazing.

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Speaker 3: Well, I just find so many, you know, in my

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Speaker 3: world's working with a lot of women too, are very

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Speaker 3: hesitant to discuss mental health and medication because it makes

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Speaker 3: women seem unstable or crazy. So I just really like

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Speaker 3: being open with people like, Hey, I'm a Polzer winning

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Speaker 3: journalist and I take a cocktail of medication.

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Speaker 2: It's okay.

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Speaker 1: You know, the thing is that you seem very there,

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Speaker 1: very kind of. You always feel close to your emotions.

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Speaker 1: That's what you present as.

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Speaker 3: That's why I always think it's interesting when you want

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Speaker 3: me to give emotional stuff because I.

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Speaker 2: Don't consider myself emotional.

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I think I'm just intuitive maybe.

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Speaker 1: Maggie, Danny, thanks for being here. Everyone has loved your podcast,

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Speaker 1: your creator's cut of what we called Death and Deceit

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Speaker 1: and Alliance. It's been gripping. It's been great to work

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Speaker 1: on it. I'm going to jump right into it here.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever have any doubts about bringing this production,

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Speaker 1: which was originally researched I guess in twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 1: back into the public eye.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I did, absolutely. I didn't want to do it.

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Speaker 3: Actually when you asked me, like, hey, I really love

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Speaker 3: this podcast, I would love for you to maybe put

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Speaker 3: it out.

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Speaker 2: What do you think just the initial reach out.

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Speaker 4: I very much had hesitation because of a lot of

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Speaker 4: the comments we got while making it, and then particularly

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Speaker 4: after once you know, we came to the conclusion that

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Speaker 4: we think the right people are in the right place.

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of people after that we thought we.

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Speaker 3: Duped them or kind of knew a ahead of time

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Speaker 3: and just did this to make money and kind of

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Speaker 3: you know, used the family in that sense.

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Speaker 2: And so that was absolutely not the case.

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Speaker 3: And I know Danny could speak to that because I

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Speaker 3: think you were kind of upset seeing some of those comments.

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Speaker 3: I absolutely hesitated, and I think our reasoning, which maybe

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Speaker 3: I can explain after Danny's answer, but I think the

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Speaker 3: reasoning for putting it out is meaningful, and so I

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Speaker 3: do feel good about it now.

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Speaker 1: So just to clarify for myself now that it's kind

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Speaker 1: of a real time investigation in the sense that you know,

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Speaker 1: you are putting out things as they happen. You don't

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Speaker 1: know how the story's going to end. Is that right?

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Speaker 1: Are you doing it week by week or is it

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Speaker 1: all done in the before you put it together?

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Speaker 2: No, we it was.

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Speaker 3: Maybe the first ten since those were a lot of background,

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Speaker 3: and John and Danny did it really well. I guess

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Speaker 3: now the numbers are different, but the first half probably was.

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Speaker 3: I was able to write those because a lot of

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Speaker 3: it was just the background on the case and we

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Speaker 3: were hitting the ground at that time. There did come

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Speaker 3: a point mid season where it was actually legitimately real

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Speaker 3: time I was putting these episodes out. I was able

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Speaker 3: to get ahead with a few, but yeah, by the

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Speaker 3: time we were going to the prisons, you know, on

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Speaker 3: the ground in Ohio, that was all being put out

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Speaker 3: in real time.

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Speaker 1: Wait, wait, so finish that. What's the reasoning for putting

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Speaker 1: it out?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: So I think you know.

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Speaker 3: I just did another podcast recently called Graves County at

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Speaker 3: season three of Bone.

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Speaker 2: Valley and thank You.

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Speaker 3: And in that podcast, I actually encountered a journalist who

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Speaker 3: was doing what I did back in the day, back

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Speaker 3: in the two thousand and five two thousand and six era,

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Speaker 3: and he was investigating an unself murder and took credit

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Speaker 3: for having a hand in the conviction of five people

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Speaker 3: who now twenty something years later, many people in luoting myself,

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Speaker 3: they have an active habeas petition, a judge has already

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Speaker 3: granted an evidentry hearing believe that they are actually innocent.

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Speaker 3: And this journalist is still gloating that he put these

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Speaker 3: people in prison. And that's okay if you really do

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Speaker 3: believe in the facts that you found. But what I

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Speaker 3: found is that he twisted the facts. In fact, actually

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Speaker 3: he omitted the facts, not twisted. He omitted facts knowingly

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Speaker 3: that these people were potentially innocent. And so instead of

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Speaker 3: doing that in death and Deceit and Alliance, when Danny

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Speaker 3: myself kind of found the evidence or black thereof that

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Speaker 3: the correct people were in prison, We didn't try and

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Speaker 3: hide that, we didn't try and cover that up. And

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Speaker 3: so when I found this journalist who did it made

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Speaker 3: me really mad and I was like, you know, I

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Speaker 3: want to put back out my experience. And even though

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Speaker 3: I got a lot of crap for being wrong, at

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Speaker 3: least I was honest about it.

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Speaker 2: And I think that integrity is so important.

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Speaker 1: So let's unpack some of this. So the first thing

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Speaker 1: that occurs to me is like, with the Graves County

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Speaker 1: and this is a BBC journalist, did you feel like

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Speaker 1: you were you had a chance to kind of make

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Speaker 1: right what you'd done wrong.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting you say done wrong because I'm not.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if I did wrong right, because we

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Speaker 3: course corrected very quickly when we my wonderful PI. Danny

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Speaker 3: was like, you know, I think what we're finding is

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Speaker 3: affirming these convictions.

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Speaker 2: Actually, and it did take me a while.

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Speaker 3: I was definitely hanging on to the these guys could

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Speaker 3: still be innocent. Long after Danny kind of accepted, you know,

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Speaker 3: where we were. I don't think I did anything wrong.

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Speaker 3: I accepted it and I put it out there. If

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Speaker 3: you want to say, you know, following this case, which

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Speaker 3: some people might say is so obvious the right people

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Speaker 3: are in prison.

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Speaker 2: Was wrong.

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Speaker 3: Sure, I think I wanted to give this journalist the

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Speaker 3: opportunity to do what I did and look back and

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Speaker 3: reflect and admit that we're all human and fallible and imperfect,

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Speaker 3: and instead of accepting like, oh my gosh, twenty years ago,

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Speaker 3: when I was a younger journalist, not particularly young, he

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Speaker 3: was still older, I did make a mistake and that

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Speaker 3: could have hurt some people's lives.

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Speaker 2: I would say it did hurt lives.

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Speaker 3: And to double down actually and send me emails telling

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Speaker 3: me that I'm a conspiracy theorist for looking at facts

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Speaker 3: and court records that show innocence. That makes me mad.

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Speaker 3: And Steve, I'm sure as a journalist too, you might

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Speaker 3: have opinions about that. I think it is so crucial

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Speaker 3: to be honest and open, to keep the integrity of

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Speaker 3: being a journalist. People now trust me, People go, oh,

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Speaker 3: I know when she finds something that isn't in the

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Speaker 3: best light, she'll still tell us and she's not going

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Speaker 3: to cover it up and lie.

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Speaker 2: And I now know that this journalist Tom Mingle in.

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Speaker 3: Graves County indeed new information and put out something completely different.

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Speaker 1: Mag Let me so let's just go to that moment too,

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Speaker 1: because it is such an important moment in the podcast,

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Speaker 1: and not to be cynical, but it's a huge twist

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Speaker 1: which kind of serves the whole narrative I think. But

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Speaker 1: the twist has to do with your personal journey and

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Speaker 1: your investment, and could you just describe two things. Let's

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Speaker 1: start with, why do you get are you somebody who

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Speaker 1: invests in these why are you somebody who invests in

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Speaker 1: this particular story? And like, what do you feel your

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Speaker 1: investment is?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I want to explain to people.

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Speaker 3: And I do think Danny, you could also talk because

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Speaker 3: as a PI, you looked at this case when I

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Speaker 3: handed you the files and said, hey, there's legs here.

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Speaker 3: We didn't just find some random person in prison and say,

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Speaker 3: oh my god, let's figure out if this guy's innocent

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Speaker 3: and get him out.

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Speaker 2: That absolute not happened.

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Speaker 3: David Thorne had been in prison for twenty two years

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Speaker 3: at the time, and he had many many investigators innocence projects.

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Speaker 3: People look at his case and really hit a wall.

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Speaker 3: I talked to Beth Carris. Many people know her from

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Speaker 3: Court TV. She's covered every freaking case from OJ to

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Speaker 3: Pam Smart I talked to Dwayne Pullman, a local award

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Speaker 3: winning investigative reporter who also covered this case. So we

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Speaker 3: didn't just find some random case in a pile of

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Speaker 3: people claiming innocence and decide to dive in.

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Speaker 2: This case truly had legs.

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Speaker 3: And when I spoke to David and looked at this case,

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Speaker 3: I thought, you know, we could talk about my belief

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Speaker 3: in his actual innocence. But I thought, at minimum, he

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Speaker 3: didn't get a fair trial, and there's probably something here,

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Speaker 3: and Maggie.

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Speaker 1: And there was, Yeah, I mean, but you do invest

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Speaker 1: emotionally in these stories.

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Speaker 3: I think, so, right, Well, I think, yeah, so when

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Speaker 3: I see that, right that, like, this is so wrong.

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Speaker 2: This guy didn't get a fair trial at minimum.

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Speaker 3: And I am a reporter in this field, reporting on

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Speaker 3: truth and justice, the legal system, right, and I see

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Speaker 3: a wrong, I see a flaw, I see a mistake

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Speaker 3: that makes me upset, that makes me mad, and I

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Speaker 3: think that I'm just so driven to fix it for

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Speaker 3: the integrity of everybody else. Right Like, shining a light

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Speaker 3: on this one instance in this state can open up

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Speaker 3: a door for so many other people, right Like in

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Speaker 3: Kentucky and Graves County, looking at the Quincy Cross case.

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Speaker 2: From that case, I.

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Speaker 3: Have found five, six, seven others of potential people that

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Speaker 3: do not belong in prison, So that makes me mad.

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Speaker 3: And then talking about the police in this case too,

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Speaker 3: in David Thorn's case, the amount of malfeasance, malpractice, at

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Speaker 3: sometimes mal intent of these officers is completely inappropriate and egregious.

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Speaker 2: And looking at all of that in total, yeah, I.

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Speaker 3: Get emotionally invested in it, for sure, And I also

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Speaker 3: think it's important to let listeners know that I'm not

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Speaker 3: just a robot.

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Speaker 1: I think you're right, Danny. What was it like to

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Speaker 1: to work side by side with Maggie, who's a kind

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Speaker 1: of fireball badass. You know, she leaves it all on

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Speaker 1: the field.

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Speaker 5: It was unlike anything I'd ever done before, but that energy,

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Speaker 5: she became like a family member to me. I mean

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Speaker 5: we spent so many like a little sister. I mean

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Speaker 5: we spent so many hours in the car, We spent

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Speaker 5: hours under the cabana of the hotel, in the lobbies

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Speaker 5: of the hotel. I mean, you really live when you're

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Speaker 5: out of your element in a town you've never even

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Speaker 5: heard of. For weeks, weeks, I mean we spent weeks

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Speaker 5: there nothing, there's nothing else to go distract yourself with.

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Speaker 5: So when you're truly on the ground in that environment,

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Speaker 5: you go to sleep thinking about it. You wake up

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Speaker 5: in the middle of the night dreaming about it, the case,

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Speaker 5: the details, things are popping into your head through Sometimes

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Speaker 5: it's a download of something. Hey I didn't look at this.

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Speaker 5: I mean, we had moments like that where we're just

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Speaker 5: innocently sitting on a plane and for whatever reason, we're

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Speaker 5: pulling up PDF files on our phone and we're like,

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Speaker 5: we never I never saw that, and we're I mean,

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Speaker 5: we're you mean, you're living in the case and to think.

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Speaker 5: And I guess, like Maggie said earlier, what was so

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Speaker 5: confusing was people saying this was all she knew in

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Speaker 5: the beginning, This was all for ratings. And I don't

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Speaker 5: get caught up in reviews and comments because I always

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Speaker 5: feel like you're never going to meet a hater that's

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Speaker 5: doing better than you, so I can typically tune that

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Speaker 5: shit out, you know. But we got Me and John

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Speaker 5: both got very protective of Maggie. That being said, And

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Speaker 5: answer your question. Because of that, we've we're eating every

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Speaker 5: meal together, we're waking up together, we're going to bed

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Speaker 5: with this case on our mind, and it was listening

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Speaker 5: last night, just replaying some of those memories. It took

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Speaker 5: me back because we were keep in mind, the world

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Speaker 5: was in chaos as we were performing this.

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Speaker 2: You can hear in this show. I have COVID it.

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Speaker 5: Was January of twenty one. Yeah, yeah, airports were chaos.

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Speaker 1: Danny, let me just go to that though. You're sitting

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Speaker 1: in cars now, because this whole amazing emotional scene takes

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Speaker 1: place in the car. Maggie, somehow, I imagine you're in

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Speaker 1: the back seat. Hey, okay, walk us through that scene

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Speaker 1: and to the extent you can, and how you how

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Speaker 1: you experienced it.

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Speaker 3: It really was surreal and like listening back, it's one

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Speaker 3: of those moments where it's so vivid.

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Speaker 2: Because, as I.

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Speaker 3: Mentioned, John and Danny had I think accepted long before

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Speaker 3: me that the correct people were in prison. I don't know,

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Speaker 3: I don't want to say guilt ino sense. Maybe that's

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Speaker 3: not it. The correct people were in prison, but there

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Speaker 3: wasn't much more we could do at this point. Was

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Speaker 3: really the conclusion they saw that every road we were

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Speaker 3: going down, we were getting the same information. No one

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Speaker 3: was changing stories, and you can elaborate on this more

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Speaker 3: as an investigator, but we weren't getting new information pointing

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Speaker 3: to innocence. It really was showing that the people were

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Speaker 3: where they belonged, and that was hard for me to accept.

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Speaker 2: So when that moment in the back was right after.

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Speaker 3: You had interviewed David and this was it, I still

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Speaker 3: had hopes they had talked to Joe. I was still

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Speaker 3: in my head like believing this like crazy blackout story.

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Speaker 2: I was like, this is possible.

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Speaker 3: I know amnesia, Like, oh my god, I was like

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Speaker 3: deep in amnesia. And then they talked to David and

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Speaker 3: I was like, but maybe he's just like on the

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Speaker 3: spectrum or something. It can't explain himself. And they just

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Speaker 3: were sitting there like I don't think, Like it was

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Speaker 3: this moment where they didn't want to look at me

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Speaker 3: and be like you're wrong, but I knew I was wrong,

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Speaker 3: and I just I just broke out and I just

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Speaker 3: I had invested so much, and at that moment it

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Speaker 3: really was like, Okay, he one lied to them. He

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Speaker 3: didn't answer any questions they had in a helpful manner.

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Speaker 3: He didn't help himself. And I think I was also

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Speaker 3: accepting that whether this man is innocent or not. I

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Speaker 3: can't help him at this point.

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Speaker 1: And that felt it felt like he betrayed you in

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Speaker 1: a way. I think.

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Speaker 2: Because at that point I did believe in him. Maybe still.

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Speaker 3: It really wasn't until that final call I had with

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Speaker 3: him where I confronted him about all this, But yeah,

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Speaker 3: I think at that moment I maybe still believed like

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Speaker 3: he's just not helping himself. And that was also devastating

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Speaker 3: to me, Like I can't help you if you're not

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Speaker 3: helping us.

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Speaker 2: So it was a lot of things, a lot of processing.

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Speaker 1: Wow, Danny, what was it like to see and be

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Speaker 1: with experience Maggie's breakdown?

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Speaker 5: You know, that's a great question because me and John

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Speaker 5: had just come off a Memphis, Tennessee the Dallas, Texas

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Speaker 5: a three cases in a row in which we felt

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Speaker 5: like they were innocent going in and we reached a

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Speaker 5: point in the middle of all three of the cases

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Speaker 5: and the other one will come to me in a minute,

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Speaker 5: It really doesn't matter, but we had just had when

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Speaker 5: we told Maggie the last three cases we we bought into.

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Speaker 5: It turns out the right guys were in prison, but

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Speaker 5: me and John, as soon as we knew were like,

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Speaker 5: fuck all right, time to move on. But seeing knowing

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Speaker 5: how invested Maggie was and our love that we had

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Speaker 5: developed for her, it was a it was a different

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Speaker 5: approach because she was she was crumbling in the backseat

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Speaker 5: and trying to come up for the right words in

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Speaker 5: that moment when when we're acknowledging that she's accepting what

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Speaker 5: we already know and haven't haven't had the fortitude to

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Speaker 5: tell her. Maggie, this is when we left Joe, Me

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Speaker 5: and John had us Powell in the hotel and was like, dude,

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Speaker 5: Joe never took himself away from the scene. He's got

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Speaker 5: all these variations. We went into this believe and there

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Speaker 5: was a full recantation, but Maggie has recapped it and

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Speaker 5: has acknowledged after the fact, and in that moment, I

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Speaker 5: don't think it was there. But Joe was always there.

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Speaker 5: Every time. There was different things that happened, but Joe

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Speaker 5: was always in a Vonn's house. Tonight she died all

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Speaker 5: the way up until the newest iteration of it was

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Speaker 5: just a fourteen hour blackout.

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Speaker 1: And so Maggie's in the back seat crying. I forget

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Speaker 1: whether it's you or John who says to her, Maggie,

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Speaker 1: this is emotional work. That was Younie.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean this emotional work. We're dealing with people's lives.

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Speaker 5: And then I've said something about we're not throwing in

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Speaker 5: the towel, but I was, I mean, I just I

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Speaker 5: care about her, you know, because she cares about this

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Speaker 5: so much. She was truly this was this wasn't theatrics.

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Speaker 5: Maggie was. John started to cry, that's about you get out.

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Speaker 2: Of a car because I was like, that was really

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Speaker 2: it was intense.

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Speaker 5: It was a tough moment, but.

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Speaker 3: You know, because there's so much involved in that. Like

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Speaker 3: I felt bad for, you know, dragging them in. I

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Speaker 3: said that, you know, it was like they invested so

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Speaker 3: much time and money they could have been working on

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Speaker 3: other cases.

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Speaker 2: So I was then having this guilt for that.

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Speaker 3: I was still feeling really guilty about Sue. There was

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Speaker 3: just so much guilt, and the only answer I had

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Speaker 3: was not to pretend like it didn't happen, was to

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Speaker 3: just confront it and say, look, this is what we found.

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Speaker 3: And I think it's important to put that out there

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Speaker 3: and be honest about it and show journalists and investigators

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Speaker 3: like just follow the facts. You can be emotional and

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Speaker 3: you can be in it, but if the facts are

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Speaker 3: showing you different, you have to accept that and.

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Speaker 2: You'll lift through it. I did you know? So just

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Speaker 2: be honest.

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Speaker 1: So did you have a debate with yourself or your

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Speaker 1: producers about whether to put that really emotional and potentially

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Speaker 1: embarrassing moment in the podcast?

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Speaker 2: So I was producer.

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Speaker 3: And I had an editor, Amber Hunt, amazing, amazing investigative reporter.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we talked about it. I don't know if it was.

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Speaker 3: I think my instinct was to put it in. Like,

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Speaker 3: as a journalist, I just always want transparency. So my

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Speaker 3: instinct was, let's just put it in and see what

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Speaker 3: she thinks about this moment, right, Like I knew actually

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Speaker 3: criticism we were already getting at that point, like oh

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Speaker 3: my god, these guys are so guilty.

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Speaker 2: What are they doing? Why can't they see it?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: Because at that point we're in real time.

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Speaker 3: So I thought it was important to show the real

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Speaker 3: human cost of this. Again, Danny's a professional, he's not

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Speaker 3: a robot. I'm a professional. I'm not a robot. We're

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Speaker 3: all human. So I just thought that was important, So

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Speaker 3: instinctively I wanted to put it in. If Amber was like, no,

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Speaker 3: this is exposing yourself too much.

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Speaker 2: Probably would have become a conversation, but she she was

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Speaker 2: with it.

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Speaker 1: Huh, that's really interesting. Who killed me? Von Lane?

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Speaker 5: I think Joe kild her. I think Joe Wilkes killed her.

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Speaker 1: And what do you think David Thorne's involvement was.

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Speaker 5: I think David Thorn paid Joe Wilkes to killer to have.

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Speaker 2: Joe killer three hundred dollars.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, because you know, one of the things that I

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Speaker 5: thought about is that I've been revisiting my memories of

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Speaker 5: this case is I've been in many prisons, and I've

400
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Speaker 5: stood in front of many murderers. The closest I ever

401
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Speaker 5: came to wanting to hug a prisoner was Joe Wilkes

402
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Speaker 5: when he tells me his childhood story of being in

403
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Speaker 5: the foster system. At one at twelve years old, his

404
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Speaker 5: foster mother was sneaking into his bedroom molesting him. He

405
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Speaker 5: wanted someone so badly to love him. He wanted He

406
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Speaker 5: was living on a couch behind an abandoned old warehouse,

407
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Speaker 5: so he could relate to David's promptings of my child

408
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Speaker 5: is being abused. The mother Yvonne is living with a

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Speaker 5: dangerous criminal. My child is being abused. I don't want

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Speaker 5: to have to pay child support for my child to

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Speaker 5: be abused. Joe could relate to the abuse of a

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Speaker 5: child he had spent. He was only eighteen when this happened.

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Speaker 5: It wasn't that far away that he was remembering what

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Speaker 5: an abused childhood looks like. And I think Joe being

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Speaker 5: able to buy into David's very influential ways need. Joe

416
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Speaker 5: felt needed. Joe felt like, in some ways, I think

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Speaker 5: he could be a hero and save this child from

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Speaker 5: possibly things that he had experienced. Plus he would have

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Speaker 5: an ally, someone that had promised to look out for

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Speaker 5: him for the rest of his life if he did

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Speaker 5: just this one thing.

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Speaker 1: Maggie, that what we call the creator's cut. We and

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Speaker 1: you led this process, re edited it, and it went

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Speaker 1: from twenty episodes to about fifteen. Do you feel you

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Speaker 1: were able to accomplish now that you're you know, you

426
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Speaker 1: were able to look back and condense.

427
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Speaker 2: It was really interesting. In the first one. We had

428
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Speaker 2: so many rabbit holes.

429
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Speaker 3: Do you remember, you know, finding the guy in the

430
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Speaker 3: warehouse that we like wired Sue up to go talk

431
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Speaker 3: to him, Like those were things we were reporting in

432
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Speaker 3: real time, so we put them in thinking they might

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Speaker 3: go somewhere, which they didn't.

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Speaker 2: And that's, you know, a problem you have with real time.

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Speaker 3: Reporting is kind of knowing what has legs and what

436
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,680
Speaker 3: doesn't and if it just doesn't go anywhere. Okay, So

437
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Speaker 3: for this cut, we just wanted to focus on what

438
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Speaker 3: is important to this story. And yes, there was a

439
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Speaker 3: lot of people who came out of the woodworks with

440
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Speaker 3: false leads and stuff, but what was really important was

441
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 3: tracking down all the people originally in this case who

442
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,679
Speaker 3: never changed their story. I mean, finding Sam Peig was

443
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 3: probably one of the most, if not the most important.

444
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 2: Piece of this because that was his best friend. Says.

445
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:24,120
Speaker 3: He told me David asked him to kill her long

446
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,680
Speaker 3: before the murder. He is my best friend. I still

447
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,879
Speaker 3: don't think he do it did it, but he told

448
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:33,919
Speaker 3: me this. I don't think you could get around that, Danny.

449
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 5: No. Sam was huge, She was credible. She had no reason.

450
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 5: She did not want to be involved. That was obvious

451
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 5: from every action she had taken. But it was amazing.

452
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 5: We're at the airport about to border our plane to

453
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 5: go home, and she texted me, texted me and said,

454
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 5: Joe says, I can talk to you. Me and John

455
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,679
Speaker 5: are like the travel was already a pain in the

456
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 5: ass because of COVID. In the weather, it was snowing,

457
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 5: and we were like, dude, you may I get home.

458
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,879
Speaker 5: So we had a week to prepare and like we

459
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,880
Speaker 5: got to get back up here Joe. It was amazing

460
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,919
Speaker 5: how fast she was able to communicate with Joe in

461
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:19,160
Speaker 5: prison and get the okay from Joe. Joe told her,

462
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 5: tell you can speak to them, just tell them the truth.

463
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,680
Speaker 5: And we went into that knowing that she's going to

464
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,159
Speaker 5: talk to us with Joe's permission, with the intention of

465
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:35,640
Speaker 5: giving us the truth. And you know what, I think

466
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,920
Speaker 5: she told us the truth. And in the end that

467
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,199
Speaker 5: was where you know, we were already we were already

468
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 5: starting to have nervous tummies with Chris because Chris was

469
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 5: he too, was spot on. He's stuck with this story

470
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 5: twenty years later.

471
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 3: We were sure, you know, we had heard from many

472
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 3: people and we did a lot of door knocking to

473
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:55,920
Speaker 3: find Chris. So that was a lot that got cut out,

474
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 3: all them multiple girlfriends who hate him and wives and whatever.

475
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:01,919
Speaker 3: Because we really thought he was going to be this

476
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 3: big bombshell. So we set him up we had heard,

477
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,679
Speaker 3: you know, he was an informant a CEI getting paid

478
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 3: and John and Danny talked to him and I don't

479
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 3: think you found that.

480
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 1: M Yeah, I remember that. He was amazing. He was

481
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: very convincing when we when we heard that interview as well.

482
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 3: And you know, I want to point out again is

483
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 3: I wasn't in any of these interviews, so I am

484
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 3: also only listening as the listener is hearing. I really

485
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 3: relied on John and Danny to be professional investigators and

486
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,679
Speaker 3: tell me what they were seeing, body language, what was happening.

487
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 3: I'm only hearing this, So I really relied on them

488
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:42,199
Speaker 3: for that.

489
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 5: Took a good that said good memory, because Maggie jumped

490
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:50,239
Speaker 5: our shit back in the car at one event and

491
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 5: we're like, Maggie, She's like, you gave him the wrong dates.

492
00:27:55,480 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 5: We're doing that intentionally giving him wrong dates, thinking that

493
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 5: if he knows what's true, he's going to correct us.

494
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 5: And she was so mad at us for getting details wrong,

495
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 5: but we were intentionally, yeah, getting detail wrong.

496
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 3: It was so interesting to learn from them, like how

497
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:17,360
Speaker 3: to interview when you're interrogating some one.

498
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 2: I guess it was really interesting.

499
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:21,360
Speaker 1: Mattie, what would you do differently.

500
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 3: I would go into it just more open minded. I think,

501
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,199
Speaker 3: you know, there's no getting around how corrupt the police

502
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 3: force was. The chief of police, all of them who

503
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 3: he attempted to sue us and cannot because everything we

504
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 3: put in there is factual. They're not great. I think

505
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 3: I maybe would have gone in not going so hard

506
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 3: on them. I think because I believed you were going to

507
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 3: find there was some cover up. You know, I'll think

508
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 3: a lot of what we present in the podcast made

509
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 3: a lot of people think that. I know, Dwayne Pullman

510
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 3: still has many questions about you know, Leech was the

511
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 3: name of the chief one of the detectives.

512
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 2: I forget his position. There's still a lot of questions.

513
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 3: So I did go hard for the police, and I

514
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 3: think it's hard not to when you work in the world.

515
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 2: I work in wrongful convictions.

516
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 3: For police and prosecutors are wrongfully convicting people, whether intentionally

517
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:19,479
Speaker 3: or not.

518
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 2: I would go in.

519
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:27,959
Speaker 3: Just more open to Yes, this police force, I think

520
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 3: John said at a Broken Clock is right twice a day. Yes,

521
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 3: they can be horribly corrupt and bad and wrong, and

522
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 3: perhaps you have wrongfully convicted people, but they still could

523
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 3: have been right in this, So I just I would

524
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 3: have maybe not gone as hard at that angle.

525
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 1: Interesting. What do you think did you get any feedback

526
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: from Yvonne Lane's family. I know they were hesitant to

527
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: get involved in the first go round.

528
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 3: There was no communication from them, and it's really hard.

529
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 3: That was one of the things that people got on

530
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 3: me a lot for is you know, you're really hurting

531
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 3: the family bringing us up and for what for?

532
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 2: Clicks Again, that was not it.

533
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 3: You know, in these cases when someone is wrongfully convicted,

534
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 3: that's not what we found here. But in these questions,

535
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 3: these cases it everyone gets hurt when someone is wrongfully convicted.

536
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 2: The family of the victim has to relive this.

537
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 3: Every time someone puts in a habeas corpus an appeal

538
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 3: they are notified. They have to relive the worst day

539
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 3: of their life every single time. That is why it

540
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 3: is also so important to get it right the first time.

541
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 2: So do I feel bad for dragging all this up.

542
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 2: I absolutely do.

543
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 3: However, that is not my fault that the system tried

544
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 3: to man on horrible evidence very poorly.

545
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,479
Speaker 2: I still don't believe he should have been convicted. That

546
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 2: is not on me.

547
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 3: That it is my job to investigate this and bring

548
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 3: this up again, and I deeply apologize to them for that,

549
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 3: but that's my job, and that's why it's important to

550
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 3: get it right.

551
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: Maggie. You know, one of the things that comes from

552
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 1: not following the rabbit holes is we get a really

553
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: kind of condensed emotional experience in a way. And so

554
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 1: I think that their interesting thing about this, albeit it's

555
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: you know, hours long, is that you know we're on

556
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 1: an emotional ride, and frankly your emotional ride. So for me,

557
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: it was kind of a huge success in the re editing,

558
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 1: and I want to thank you for that. You're sitting

559
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: at the bar, you've got had. I forget who you interviewed.

560
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 1: It was a bust or didn't get an interview, it

561
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 1: was a bus. You're sitting at the bar and you

562
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: guys are thumbing through a file that apparently you've had

563
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: for a while when you come upon some news that

564
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 1: changes everything, right, Can you tell about that? And one

565
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 1: of the things I'm interested in is what happens if

566
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: you're not at the bar.

567
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 3: So this moment, right we were packing it in for

568
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 3: the day. We were like, we are done. John and

569
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 3: Daniel were like, we are done. And I think we

570
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 3: all like had gone back to our rooms and we're

571
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 3: just like, now we got to let's meet at the bar.

572
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 2: We're just going through some stuff like I have no

573
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 2: chill and that.

574
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 5: It was so I remember we were all going to

575
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 5: our rooms. That was last we spoke, and then thirty

576
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 5: minutes later, they're like, oh, there's Maggie, Oh there's John.

577
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 2: We all just wrapped the bar out coordinating it.

578
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 5: We're all just so worked up, nauseated, pissed off, whatever

579
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 5: it was. We all ended up right back together within

580
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 5: thirty minutes of that.

581
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so I think coordinated.

582
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 5: I was like, did y'all tell each other? We're like, no,

583
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 5: we just we just ended up here.

584
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 3: We just need to keep looking at files, which is

585
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 3: what we were doing. Danny doesn't even drink, so he

586
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 3: wasn't going to the bar to drink. You were just

587
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 3: looking at the files.

588
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 2: So yeah, So.

589
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 3: When you asked would I do anything different, I think

590
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 3: again I would.

591
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 2: I would rely less on Sue.

592
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 3: I think this was one of the first investigations I

593
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 3: had done, and so I was relying on her a

594
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 3: lot for like where are documents?

595
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 2: What are documents? Of course I foiled for my own documents.

596
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 3: You often don't get those, So it was really like

597
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 3: I was using her as a directory, and I would

598
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 3: do that differently, but this was something.

599
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:24,479
Speaker 2: It wasn't like it was hidden.

600
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 3: What it was was we had she had given us

601
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,959
Speaker 3: all written transcripts because she didn't get all the audio

602
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 3: files from the police. I had to foil for that

603
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 3: and I actually had to go into the Alliance Police

604
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,239
Speaker 3: department station, sit there with a physical tape recorder and

605
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 3: copy from tape to my computer, like for endless hours.

606
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 2: So I was getting audio that Sue didn't have. So

607
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 2: one of those audio tapes was a new one. Angie.

608
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 3: Never heard of this woman before. We did not know

609
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 3: to look for Angie. We were not told there was

610
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 3: an Angie. When we're all going through these files eight

611
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 3: hundred times, it's kind of like a transcript we glossed over.

612
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 3: It was like a one page. We didn't it just

613
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 3: got glossed over.

614
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:08,920
Speaker 1: You know.

615
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 2: She was never a key player we heard of.

616
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 3: And so when I got this tape that said Angie,

617
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 3: I was like, is there a transcript for this? And

618
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,240
Speaker 3: that was when we found the transcripts in the file

619
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 3: that night and said, holy fuck, this has been sitting

620
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 3: here this whole time. So if I didn't do my

621
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 3: job as a journalist and FOYA for these tapes, and

622
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 3: it's hard to get investigators try to get them.

623
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 2: It's so freaking hard.

624
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:33,359
Speaker 3: And if I had done the work and gone there,

625
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 3: maybe we wouldn't have known about Angie. Maybe we would

626
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 3: have found it that night just flipping through. But the

627
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 3: second I saw a name we had never heard of

628
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 3: that we then knew there was a transcript for was

629
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 3: pretty shocking.

630
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 1: Okay, So just background, now, tell listeners, viewers, who's Sue

631
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 1: and what do you learned from Angie.

632
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 2: Sue is David Thorn's wife. She's older than him by

633
00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 2: many decades.

634
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 3: You know, she's kind of the spokesperson for David, and

635
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 3: that was something and maybe Danny could speak to. But

636
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 3: when David didn't have Sue kind of speaking for him

637
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 3: and telling him the facts of his own innocence, he

638
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 3: couldn't really speak for himself. So Sue was really this

639
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 3: the leader and many everyone in prison. If you want

640
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,240
Speaker 3: your voice out there, you basically have to have an advocate,

641
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:23,879
Speaker 3: and that was Sue.

642
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:25,439
Speaker 2: That was how I heard about this case.

643
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 3: Sue brought it to me, so Angie is an next

644
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 3: girlfriend of David's who had some very damning things to

645
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 3: say about him. And you know, that was when John

646
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:40,399
Speaker 3: and Danny were able to confront David and say, tell

647
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 3: us the truth.

648
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 2: You never told us you were violent, and.

649
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 3: Here we are with these police incidents from Angie saying

650
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 3: he was a violent man, and it was just it

651
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 3: was so shocking that night.

652
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 2: It was so shocking.

653
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 1: She had given you Angie. You guys just didn't at

654
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 1: that point understand.

655
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 3: I think so, I think whether yeah, it was just

656
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:08,840
Speaker 3: there because people have to understand. You don't get a cohesive,

657
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 3: organized file. It doesn't work like that. You get thrown thousands,

658
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 3: tens of thousands of pages in a pile shared through

659
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 3: you know, I got from Sue, who got from police

660
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 3: twenty years ago. Then I sent to Danny, and then

661
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 3: I was getting other files. So it's not like anyone

662
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 3: didn't do their due diligence. We were gonna find it

663
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 3: eventually when we went through all the files. I just

664
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 3: took a lot longer, and luckily the tapes came in

665
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 3: before we finished the podcast.

666
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,800
Speaker 1: Truly, Ah wow, how long did you spend on this case?

667
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 3: Investigating this Maggie so I think with you guys, it

668
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 3: was almost a year from like talking to you, handing

669
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 3: you the file. I had been on it before because

670
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 3: I had done my own one off episode on David.

671
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 3: I was doing my own podcast called I'm justin Unsolved

672
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 3: and where I was just telling, you know, thirty minute

673
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 3: wrongful conviction stories. And this is before I had a

674
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 3: whole team like I do now to vet them for me.

675
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 3: So I just found this one that many people had covered,

676
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 3: and so I just kind of rehashed it with David.

677
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,439
Speaker 3: But looking at it, I said, oh my god, this

678
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 3: was this was it on its face. You could see

679
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 3: this man did not get a fair trial. And that

680
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 3: I said, oh my gosh, there's legs here. I had

681
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,240
Speaker 3: just met John and Danny because I was covering another

682
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 3: case of theirs in West Memphis, and I was like,

683
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 3: I know these investigators. I'll bring this to them. So

684
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 3: I think for me it was like almost two years.

685
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 3: For you guys, it was like a yearish.

686
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 5: We started in December and by August we were like, Maggie,

687
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 5: we're done. So nine months, yeah, nine months.

688
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 1: Just give us a flavor for the reactions you got

689
00:37:55,920 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 1: from the always loving, always understanding internet crowd.

690
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 2: It was.

691
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 3: It was they're doing it for money, They're doing it

692
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 3: for clicks.

693
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 2: You're ruining this family's life.

694
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:11,840
Speaker 3: And I do also want to say the family. For

695
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 3: our director's cut, creator's cut, we cut out information we

696
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:18,839
Speaker 3: came across about the family and fairness because it didn't

697
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 3: pan out anywhere it was in the original series, and

698
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,320
Speaker 3: we found some really not great things out about Yvon's

699
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:30,760
Speaker 3: father and alleviation she made about him to multiple people.

700
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 3: So you know, we got a lot of your ruining

701
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 3: this family's life and you're bringing this up. And I've

702
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 3: already explained, yes, I feel terrible about that, but again,

703
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 3: I don't think they were particularly the most innocent people

704
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 3: in this.

705
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:46,839
Speaker 2: It was a lot of that. It was a lot

706
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 2: of that, and I.

707
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 1: Think was it personal.

708
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:51,919
Speaker 2: I don't know, Danny, were any of them.

709
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 3: I know you got really upset reading a lot of

710
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 3: them because you were.

711
00:38:55,480 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 6: It was years later, because as you knew, you were

712
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 6: about to release the final episode of Murdering Alliance and

713
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 6: you send it to me and John and like that

714
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 6: was the first time I listened, and I was like,

715
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 6: you got to take this out.

716
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,360
Speaker 5: And I don't remember what it was, but something small,

717
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:16,280
Speaker 5: and so I just like, you know, I'm not giving

718
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 5: this my attention. You know, it doesn't matter. It's easy

719
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,360
Speaker 5: to judge. It's easy to be a critic. It's easy

720
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,800
Speaker 5: to It's like a sports fan, you know, it's easy

721
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 5: to be the Sunday Monday morning, Monday morning quarterback, you know,

722
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 5: and this is what they should have been done. But

723
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 5: they're not out driving, bottoming out in their minivan in

724
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 5: a lot, you know, colapidated, you know, freaking living living

725
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 5: this case. I mean, we lived it, you know. So

726
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 5: I'm like, it's easy to be a reviewer on the internet,

727
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 5: but at Maggie will tell you, I'm not on social media.

728
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 5: I don't. I don't give that. It's not part of

729
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 5: my mental diet.

730
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 1: Did you get a feedback from Sue?

731
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,800
Speaker 2: Sue was, well, you guys had to call Sue. You've

732
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 2: personally called her.

733
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 5: We did, but receptive and he was. He wasn't pleased,

734
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 5: but he heard us out, I mean, and we were

735
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 5: just we knew shan vest as she was, he was,

736
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,280
Speaker 5: and we but we laid it out, I mean, point

737
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 5: by point we were we weren't comfortable in our decision

738
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 5: by the time we spoke to her. That I'm not

739
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 5: putting any more into this.

740
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 3: They sent letters to David and Joe. I mean your

741
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 3: letter to Joe, I remember, was certainly more affable. And

742
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:36,760
Speaker 3: I stayed in contact with Joe a little bit after,

743
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 3: just because you know, he is up for parole. He

744
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 3: does have a shot if he does say, hey, I

745
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 3: did do this, assuming he did. I don't want anyone

746
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 3: admitting to things they didn't do. So yeah, I remember that.

747
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,879
Speaker 3: But Sue was okay at first, and then I think

748
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,319
Speaker 3: she started doubling down when it set in that this

749
00:40:55,520 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 3: was really David's virtually last chance. She told that to

750
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 3: us at some point, like it's his last shot. He

751
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 3: told me his case was dead in the water. It

752
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 3: was so I think once that set in that they

753
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 3: were not working on this, she got angry.

754
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 1: And what did she How did she express her anger?

755
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 3: A lot of online shit talking, you know again, calling

756
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 3: saying we were you know, didn't do enough, didn't look

757
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 3: into her leads, we were you know in that sense professional.

758
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 2: Just just a lot of anger. And I don't blame her, Maggie.

759
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 1: You know, I got to ask you, what were those

760
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:36,400
Speaker 1: three months like dark? Depressed? What were you doing?

761
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 3: I think that I have put the call in with

762
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 3: Danny a bit of it. I was calling Danny and

763
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 3: Danny was Danny would sometimes just send me messages I

764
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 3: maybe hadn't heard from two weeks. We're living our lives,

765
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 3: and he'd just be like, you know, I was thinking,

766
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 3: like makes me mad that people like you're just so

767
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 3: great like Danny. Danny was there for me, trying to

768
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:01,240
Speaker 3: really make me understand. And I didn't do anything wrong

769
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 3: that I didn't like betray myself. I'm still a good journalist,

770
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 3: you know, and he helped me realize, like even he

771
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 3: got wrapped up in it. So the three months were

772
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 3: just a lot of processing and really leaning on Danny

773
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:16,919
Speaker 3: because he was the only other person that could help

774
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 3: me understand what happened.

775
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: Does that mean you're like staying in bed and not

776
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 1: getting out or not turning the lights on there.

777
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 3: I was certainly avoidant of journalism work, you know. I

778
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:33,800
Speaker 3: think I had a bunch of shit I was finishing,

779
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:37,720
Speaker 3: but I was not like I'm always thinking about stories

780
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 3: and what's next, and I'm working on a story and

781
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 3: there's six other stories.

782
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 2: I really kind of shut down in that sense.

783
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:47,240
Speaker 3: I wasn't looking for the next thing I was just process,

784
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:48,760
Speaker 3: like what happened?

785
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 2: And how do I move forward after this?

786
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 3: And some people might think it wasn't a big deal,

787
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:54,840
Speaker 3: like oh girl, you were wrong, but you realize in

788
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 3: the ends, like you know you fixed it. But like

789
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 3: for me, it was like an I was like, how

790
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:06,360
Speaker 3: are my instincts so wrong to believe? David? And I

791
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 3: guess a lot of it again comes down to this

792
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 3: case was just watched. It was always botched, and again

793
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:15,399
Speaker 3: that is why it's so important to get it right

794
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 3: so people are not here dragging this shit up again

795
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:19,359
Speaker 3: thirty years later.

796
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 1: I mean, one of the things that not a long

797
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:31,880
Speaker 1: process like this is that you get so involved, Maggie,

798
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 1: Danny going forward, how do you not get so wrapped

799
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 1: up emotionally professionally? Do you get emotionally easily? Danny? I'm sorry, Maggie.

800
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 3: No, That's why I just went into journalism because I

801
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 3: just want to help. I never went into journalism to write,

802
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 3: you know, travel stories for rich people who can afford

803
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 3: to travel. It was always I want to help people

804
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 3: who are voiceless.

805
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:01,719
Speaker 1: And well now I want to know, like, wait, you

806
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:04,359
Speaker 1: didn't you didn't want to go into journalism, How did

807
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:05,800
Speaker 1: you know.

808
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well I always just wanted to help.

809
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:10,919
Speaker 3: But no, I went into Originally I was my first

810
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 3: job at eighteen, and I was a travel reporter and

811
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 3: I was sent to.

812
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 2: The Alps on like a.

813
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 3: Three course wine and cheese excursion through the Alps, and

814
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 3: it was fucking amazing. I was eighteen, it was great.

815
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 3: That could have been my life. But they're just always

816
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 3: wanted to help people. I don't know why. I just

817
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:32,319
Speaker 3: did because when someone shows up desperate, when someone comes

818
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 3: to me and someone in prison is desperate, like I

819
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 3: think my weakness is going to.

820
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:38,160
Speaker 2: Be desperate people.

821
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 3: It just people marginalize people in extreme situations that I

822
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 3: want to help because I recognize and I have fit

823
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 3: from a very early age, the extreme privilege I have

824
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,279
Speaker 3: in many ways that people listen to me and pay

825
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 3: attention to me.

826
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:55,239
Speaker 2: And if I have that platform, I'm going to use

827
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 2: it for good and to help people. You don't have

828
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 2: a emotions, No, I don't.

829
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:05,360
Speaker 3: I mean I take so much medication, so I don't

830
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:08,800
Speaker 3: have emotions because I don't like feeling. I like just working,

831
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 3: like I like just doing just the facts. Like I

832
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:14,839
Speaker 3: really don't like feeling, especially when it's a feeling of

833
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 3: like sadness or pain for people. Every day I'm talking

834
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 3: to people in pain, Like I can't feel that all

835
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 3: the time.

836
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 2: I can't.

837
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:25,919
Speaker 3: I am not able to I couldn't work. So there

838
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 3: is so much of you that has to detach in

839
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:32,319
Speaker 3: that sense. So like when I get a personal reach

840
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 3: out from Sue Thorn and hands me this case and

841
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 3: I look at it and say, I think I could

842
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 3: help this guy.

843
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:41,320
Speaker 2: I know these two pis, this is this case.

844
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:45,880
Speaker 3: I how do I say no to that when the

845
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:47,839
Speaker 3: resources are right at my fingertips?

846
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 1: Anybody I don't know.

847
00:45:49,400 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 7: Emotional, yeah, I mean, however many she takes, she's authentic, Okay, Well,

848
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 7: emotions are own.

849
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 5: Whatever she takes to mask or deter or discourage, I've

850
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 5: always viewed her as real. So I don't don't give

851
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:14,319
Speaker 5: a ship what she puts in her body. She's me,

852
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 5: you know. I she knows I'm the opposite. I take nothing, nothing.

853
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:21,840
Speaker 2: She doesn't even have a drink at the end of

854
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 2: the day.

855
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 3: Danny was mine and John's d d when we had

856
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 3: to let loose and when we were there's a whole

857
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 3: like we were going to bars, getting in with the

858
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 3: locals who knew this case I was just putting my

859
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 3: phone down taking shots with these guys, and Danny's like,

860
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 3: I'll pick you guys up in two hours.

861
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:40,279
Speaker 2: It's real.

862
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 5: I remember I was in the van and we got

863
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 5: iced into the parking lot and I was just in

864
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 5: the van by myself till like.

865
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:50,359
Speaker 2: John and Ironside were like, we're doing recon. Danny, don't worry,

866
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 2: and we're just slamming shots.

867
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good ad to the cocktail, by the way.

868
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 1: You know. So the emotion in the car after this

869
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,760
Speaker 1: interview with David Thorn, that was a breakthrough incident.

870
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:11,359
Speaker 3: It is for me to have that, and I think

871
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 3: that's why it was just so much for It was

872
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 3: just so overwhelming because I.

873
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 2: Don't get that like that.

874
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 3: Oh interesting, which I think is why for me it

875
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 3: was a standout moment. So it was never a question

876
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 3: am I putting this in or not? Because it's not

877
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 3: a day in my life where I'm sobbing all over

878
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 3: the place. It's just that doesn't happen to me.

879
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 1: Huh wow, that's interesting. Thank you Danny, Maggie, this is amazing.

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00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 1: Thank you for really sharing not only the story of

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00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:44,360
Speaker 1: death and de seat and alliance, but your personal stories.

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00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 1: I don't think that listeners get that kind of thing.

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00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 1: Viewers don't get that kind of thing. And it's a

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00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 1: it's kind of amazing to understand the person behind the podcast.

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00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 1: Death and de Seat and Alliance is out. Now you

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00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:02,239
Speaker 1: can get all fourteen episodes to plus here comes a bonus.

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00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 1: This is the bonus episode. And please, you know, send

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00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:09,720
Speaker 1: us any feedback you have. We're it info at Orbitmedia

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00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 1: dot f M. And uh, you know, Maggie and Danny

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00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:16,239
Speaker 1: could use the criticism, so.

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00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 2: Okay, I mean we love it. Thank you, all right, thanks,

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00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 2: thanks guys, Bye bye