Speaker 1: When the pandemic hit, millions of people converted their kitchens,
Speaker 1: living rooms, and bedrooms into home offices. Now, three years later,
Speaker 1: companies want workers to return to the buildings they vacated.
Speaker 2: The days of working from home are fading for more
Speaker 2: employees now being called back to the office. Disney recently
Speaker 2: announcing its employees will be required to spend four days
Speaker 2: a week on site.
Speaker 1: Google will begin tracking worker badge data and include office
Speaker 1: attendance in performance reviews to get everyone in live.
Speaker 3: You're going to go head to head with gold and Socks,
Speaker 3: who want people back five days a week.
Speaker 4: You've got government in tech. Do you think you'll ever
Speaker 4: get back to pre COVID levels.
Speaker 3: Millions of people around the world who got used to
Speaker 3: doing their jobs from home during the pandemic and grew
Speaker 3: to like it, are now being told by their employers
Speaker 3: that it's time to return to the office. At least
Speaker 3: some of the time. It might seem easy enough for
Speaker 3: everyone to just go back to the way things were before,
Speaker 3: but working remotely for a couple of years change the
Speaker 3: way a lot of employees think about their jobs and
Speaker 3: whether they need to commute to and from an office
Speaker 3: to be productive. Companies, meanwhile, are trying to figure out
Speaker 3: how to adapt to these shifts in corporate life and
Speaker 3: balance the needs of their business with the expectations of
Speaker 3: their workforce. As Bloomberg Senior Management and workplace reporter Matthew
Speaker 3: Boyle found out, that is not an easy thing to
Speaker 3: get right, and every country and every company seems to
Speaker 3: have a different approach.
Speaker 4: You have legislation either pending or proposed or actually being
Speaker 4: passed that is going to codify protect the right to
Speaker 4: work from home. We've seen these laws pop up in Ireland,
Speaker 4: They've come up in the Netherlands, beyond Europe as well,
Speaker 4: even as far as Canada. You're seeing right to disconnect.
Speaker 4: But then in the US, so we're kind of on
Speaker 4: our own. To the US, you're left to the whims
Speaker 4: of your employer, your organization, your boss.
Speaker 3: I'm West Ksova today on the big take the tricky
Speaker 3: transition from WFH to rto Matt. Glad to have you back.
Speaker 3: I see you're in the office today.
Speaker 4: Yes, very happy to be here. Wes.
Speaker 3: It seemed like, for a moment there in the middle
Speaker 3: of the pandemic, everyone was saying the era of the
Speaker 3: five day at the office work week is over. This
Speaker 3: is a seismic change and it's never going to be
Speaker 3: the same. And now it's kind of looking like maybe
Speaker 3: that's not true.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Wes, I mean your question really speaks to one
Speaker 4: of the big problems talking about this issue is that
Speaker 4: everybody wants to black and white this issue. Either the
Speaker 4: office is dead and no one's ever going back ever, ever, ever,
Speaker 4: or remote work is just for losers in their pajamas
Speaker 4: and everybody better get back five days a week. And
Speaker 4: neither of those things are true, but that's what gets
Speaker 4: a lot of the headlines. That's what you sometimes here
Speaker 4: from certain business leaders, you know, bla musk perhaps, but
Speaker 4: you chuckle. But it's like when he we calls remote
Speaker 4: work quote immoral. I mean, we've really reached a new
Speaker 4: level of this debate. So the truth is as always
Speaker 4: or usually you know, somewhere down the middle. But what
Speaker 4: we really wanted to do with this story is spend
Speaker 4: a little less time focused on the big companies that
Speaker 4: capture our attention like Google and Goldman Sachs, and a
Speaker 4: little more time spanning the world, you know, to sort
Speaker 4: of see, okay, what's going on in Europe and how
Speaker 4: does that compare to Asia and why and what's going
Speaker 4: on in Paris versus London. That's what we're really able
Speaker 4: to accomplish with this. The good thing about three and
Speaker 4: a half years into the pandemic is that we finally
Speaker 4: have a lot of good data as well.
Speaker 3: It's important that you mentioned countries around the world because
Speaker 3: this is one of the things I found really interesting
Speaker 3: about your story is how different the approaches are in
Speaker 3: different countries. So can you kind of paint us a
Speaker 3: picture of what the work from home work from off
Speaker 3: world looks like right now?
Speaker 4: Even within countries. It's not one story, it's not monolithic.
Speaker 4: Take the US just for starters before I broaden out.
Speaker 4: In the US, usually the bigger the city, the higher
Speaker 4: the rate of remote work. And whether that's due to
Speaker 4: the fact that you know, in New York and other
Speaker 4: big cities we've got to spend a lot of time
Speaker 4: schleppingto in office, or whether that's because in big cities
Speaker 4: you have more so called knowledge workers or creative types
Speaker 4: jobs that are more conducive to remote work, or whether
Speaker 4: that in the US is because we have bigger houses
Speaker 4: and we're more likely to have a wonderful work from
Speaker 4: home arrangement in our basement or in that third bedroom
Speaker 4: that no one's using, rather than being cramped in a
Speaker 4: small apartment in Hong Kong with four roommates that you
Speaker 4: just want to get the heck out of. So there
Speaker 4: in that city, and this is something we've written about before,
Speaker 4: but you know, you've got tiny apartments, but you also
Speaker 4: have a very efficient public transport system, so that's going
Speaker 4: to give residents there fewer reasons to work from home.
Speaker 4: I also came across some fresh research by Biden Nicholas
Speaker 4: Bloom and his crew, which who are sort of the
Speaker 4: gurus of remote work research out there in Stanford, and
Speaker 4: they found that Asian nations, because they did a better
Speaker 4: job of keeping COVID under wraps in the pandemic's first year,
Speaker 4: people there didn't get as accustomed to working from home
Speaker 4: as we did in the US. To move to Europe,
Speaker 4: what fascinated to me there was that you have legislation
Speaker 4: either pending or proposed or actually passed that is going
Speaker 4: to codify protect the right to work from home, to
Speaker 4: protect the right of a worker to disconnect from their
Speaker 4: employer after normal business hours. We've seen these laws pop
Speaker 4: up in Ireland, they've come up in the Netherlands, there
Speaker 4: is a pan European movement around this right to disconnect.
Speaker 4: You're seeing this legislation being proposed and passed. That's a
Speaker 4: policy solution that I don't really think we're going to
Speaker 4: be seeing in the US anytime soon, certainly not in
Speaker 4: the halls of Congress. May see some statewide protections around
Speaker 4: the right to work remote, but then in the US,
Speaker 4: so we're kind of on our own. In the US,
Speaker 4: you're left to the whims of your employer, your organization,
Speaker 4: your boss in many cases.
Speaker 3: And what do we know about how workers feel about
Speaker 3: coming back to the office versus working from home or
Speaker 3: just having some sort of flexibility.
Speaker 4: I think they really they don't mind it if there
Speaker 4: is a reason. There is nothing worse than spending eight
Speaker 4: hours on zoom calls that you could have had from
Speaker 4: your home office or just or from Starbucks or from anywhere.
Speaker 4: If you're coming into an office, you want some intentionality
Speaker 4: about it. You want to be part of a brainstorming session,
Speaker 4: or perhaps it's just something more informal, like an afterwork gathering.
Speaker 4: That's what I think employers need to realize that if
Speaker 4: you're going to do a policy, you need to be
Speaker 4: going in for a reason, and usually it's around your
Speaker 4: team itself. I mean, it's one thing to just say, Okay,
Speaker 4: the whole company has to be in. It's like, well
Speaker 4: that's great, you know, but I'm not really interacting with
Speaker 4: the engineers today, or I have nothing to do with
Speaker 4: the sales team. Make it very specific to your team,
Speaker 4: to your function for why you're in, and I think
Speaker 4: you're going to get a lot less.
Speaker 3: Pushback, Matt. One thing we hear from CEOs a lot
Speaker 3: is that part of the office culture is you bump
Speaker 3: into people in the office and you have impromptu conversations
Speaker 3: that lead to really good ideas. And I find that
Speaker 3: that's actually true. I do run into people and get
Speaker 3: good ideas. But I also find that when I'm working
Speaker 3: at home that sometimes the company gets more work out
Speaker 3: of me because I'm just focused and sitting here working
Speaker 3: all day instead of having all those conversations.
Speaker 4: The number of times I've bumped into someone and bounced
Speaker 4: the story idea off them and realized it was either
Speaker 4: a a good idea or B I should just shut
Speaker 4: up about it and move on. I mean, those are valuable,
Speaker 4: but let's say, if I'm writing a story doing heads
Speaker 4: down work, that is, when being home I think really
Speaker 4: benefits any sort of desk base worker. You don't have
Speaker 4: the constant drumbeat. You know, you might still have the
Speaker 4: pinging of slack, but at least you can turn that off.
Speaker 4: But you're not going to have people so called desk
Speaker 4: bombing you just sort of sidling up and say, hey, hey,
Speaker 4: Wes those nicks. You know, you don't really need that
Speaker 4: when you want to get heads down focused work done.
Speaker 4: So I think there's definitely a value for both of those.
Speaker 4: It's figuring out how much time do you need spend
Speaker 4: at home to get that sort of private, more focused
Speaker 4: work done, and what are the opportunities for you to
Speaker 4: be in an office and again having those more sort
Speaker 4: of spontaneous connections that I agree certainly do happen. It's
Speaker 4: just sometimes it seems like a little bit more is
Speaker 4: made of them. A lot of interactions people have in
Speaker 4: inn office, especially under represented minorities, are not wonderful. They're
Speaker 4: not wonderful at all. They're microaggressions. And that's a big
Speaker 4: reason why when you polled, for example, black Americans, they
Speaker 4: were much happier, felt much more productive and satisfied in
Speaker 4: the early months of the pandemic when everybody was remote Matt.
Speaker 3: There also seems to be sort of an about face
Speaker 3: on the messaging from companies during the pandemic. A lot
Speaker 3: of companies were really quick to say, even though our
Speaker 3: workforce is at home, they've never been more efficient and
Speaker 3: never been more productive. And now that the pandemic is
Speaker 3: behind us and people can come in, and people are
Speaker 3: saying working from home isn't as efficient, it isn't as productive,
Speaker 3: and we need people to come back in. And it's
Speaker 3: sometimes the same companies.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there was this sort of sense of Okay, I think, okay,
Speaker 4: we can do this. This is amazing. This was surprising
Speaker 4: again to at least to some people, those who didn't
Speaker 4: really study remote work. Now, though, as some of the
Speaker 4: more data is trickling out, you are seeing cases where
Speaker 4: sometimes people will cherry pick a new bit of research
Speaker 4: that comes out that says, for example, you know, Indian
Speaker 4: data entry workers were eighteen percent less productive you know
Speaker 4: while working remote. Everybody jumps on that. But then the
Speaker 4: other hand, you still have you know, reams of data
Speaker 4: and research showing from different researchers that call center workers
Speaker 4: can be as productive, if not more productive, and happier
Speaker 4: working remotely. I mean, you look at a call center worker,
Speaker 4: for the most part, you can be doing that from home.
Speaker 4: We are at least finally seeing some more nuanced and
Speaker 4: progressive approaches to this, with a lot of companies settling
Speaker 4: on some type of hybrid. And again, a hybrid doesn't
Speaker 4: always work. You can really screw up a hybrid plan
Speaker 4: if you don't spend a lot of time researching it
Speaker 4: and figuring out what types of work your workers do
Speaker 4: and where do they best do those jobs. I've got
Speaker 4: some data for you from Gallop, which is a very
Speaker 4: reputable polling organization, that shows that when you go from
Speaker 4: three to four to five days in the office, employee
Speaker 4: engagement kind of drops off a cliff because you might
Speaker 4: have people who are very used to three days in
Speaker 4: the office and they had their life sort of fixated
Speaker 4: around that, I know when i'm home, I know when
Speaker 4: I'm in the office, and then you move that to
Speaker 4: four or five days kind of on a whim, It'll
Speaker 4: uproot a lot of people's lives. And of course you're
Speaker 4: still going to you're going to lose some of those people.
Speaker 3: And That's an important point because this balance of power
Speaker 3: between companies and workers is always lightly shifting. During the pandemic,
Speaker 3: when there was this very tight labor market, work from
Speaker 3: home was one of the incentives. I remember people would say,
Speaker 3: It's like the first question they would often hear from
Speaker 3: new job applicants, what is your flexible work arrangement? Now,
Speaker 3: now that the labor market isn't quite as tight and
Speaker 3: people aren't as willing to leave, maybe there aren't as
Speaker 3: many opportunities. Companies seem to be understanding that they've got
Speaker 3: a little bit more power.
Speaker 4: I mean, if you're a smart employer, you're going to
Speaker 4: be offering at least some type of flexible work arrangement
Speaker 4: for the people you want to hire. So while yes,
Speaker 4: the balance of power has shifted back certainly more towards
Speaker 4: the employer in recent months, I still think if you
Speaker 4: have skills that are in demand, you should be able,
Speaker 4: if not to write your own ticket, then at least
Speaker 4: to have some say over where, when and how you'll work.
Speaker 3: After the break, with fewer people working downtown, what will
Speaker 3: happen to all that office space?
Speaker 5: Their statuesque vast and staggering, and they're empty skyscrapers and
Speaker 5: office buildings, once stacked high with businesses, are experiencing high
Speaker 5: vacancy rates in the US nearly nineteen percent, five and
Speaker 5: a half percent higher than before.
Speaker 3: The pandemic MATT. Another thing that comes into play in
Speaker 3: these discussions about return to office seems to be office
Speaker 3: real estate and cities. Companies have a lot of office space
Speaker 3: and they don't want it to stand empty.
Speaker 4: Yes, and twenty percent of it in the US is
Speaker 4: empty right now. Office vacancy rates are at an all
Speaker 4: time high, and with interest rates rising, a lot of
Speaker 4: the loans that are back in these offices are coming
Speaker 4: do companies are just wholesale sometimes thirty, forty, even fifty
Speaker 4: percent of their real estate, and many times these were
Speaker 4: long overdue moves. You know, companies grew up fast. Let's say,
Speaker 4: if you're especially if you're a hot, fast growing tech startup,
Speaker 4: you'd sometimes have five or six offices in the same
Speaker 4: city in like Austin. You know, we got offices everywhere,
Speaker 4: we just need them. No, you didn't really need six
Speaker 4: different ones, so consolidated into one or two probably a
Speaker 4: wise idea, But yes, there is a reckoning here for
Speaker 4: the commercial real estate sector. And unless you have what
Speaker 4: they call, you know, class A real estate with all
Speaker 4: the bells and whistles, you're probably you know, on the
Speaker 4: hunt for some tennis right now. You know, why is
Speaker 4: it that eighty percent of offices traditionally we're just individual
Speaker 4: desks and cubicles, and only twenty percent was collaborative space
Speaker 4: that should be flipped. And in a lot of workspaces
Speaker 4: and offices it is flipping right now. A lot more
Speaker 4: space set up for what we call neighborhoods. You'll do
Speaker 4: some work with your team, but there's also space for
Speaker 4: hanging out, a lot more open space, outdoor space. So
Speaker 4: we are seeing some more creative approach as to how
Speaker 4: offices are laid out, and if you don't want to
Speaker 4: get creative, it's going to cost you. The issue is
Speaker 4: that commercial real estate, folks, it's a very risk averse
Speaker 4: industry historically, because if you've made a mistake on a
Speaker 4: seven year lease, you were going to get reminded of
Speaker 4: that mistake for the next seven years. So they've often
Speaker 4: not really you know, let's say, taken chances or pushed
Speaker 4: the boundaries because all you had to do is line
Speaker 4: up a bunch of desks cubes, and you know, everyone
Speaker 4: had to go there because where else were you going
Speaker 4: to do your work. Now that people have a choice
Speaker 4: about where work gets done, I think offices need to
Speaker 4: make some hard choices about what these offices look like.
Speaker 3: And it's not just companies that are bringing pressure on
Speaker 3: workers to return. Its politicians and governments. You see the
Speaker 3: mayor of Washington, d C. Telling Joe Biden, you have
Speaker 3: to bring federal workers back to the office because the
Speaker 3: downtown businesses can't survive.
Speaker 6: We need decisive action by the White House to either
Speaker 6: get most federal workers back to the office most of
Speaker 6: the time, or to realign their vast property holdings for
Speaker 6: use by the local government, by nonprofits, by businesses, and
Speaker 6: by any user willing to revitalize it.
Speaker 4: DC New York, you know, Mayor Adams has been very vocal.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to fill up office buildings and I'm telling
Speaker 1: JP Morgan Goldman Sacks, listen, I need your people back
Speaker 1: into office so we can build the ecosystem.
Speaker 4: But it just sort of speaks to the fact that, yes,
Speaker 4: this is having a massive impact on downtown economies, but
Speaker 4: not in every city. That's one thing I learned from
Speaker 4: doing this story is that kind of a lot depends
Speaker 4: on how your city is laid out. There was a
Speaker 4: great report recently from the McKinsey Global Institute that found
Speaker 4: that if sort of pandemic attendance rates hold, as much
Speaker 4: as eight hundred billion dollars of real estate value is
Speaker 4: going to evaporate by twenty thirty in nine cities around
Speaker 4: the world. And that includes New York and San Francisco,
Speaker 4: which of course gets so much attention here, but also
Speaker 4: includes cities like Paris and Munich. But in some cities
Speaker 4: we do see that when you have a city that's
Speaker 4: not just set up as a downtown business district where
Speaker 4: all you have is offices and coffee shops and delis,
Speaker 4: when you actually have people living and working and playing
Speaker 4: in a city, the impact there is much more muted.
Speaker 4: And that's what this McKenzie report found, which I found
Speaker 4: very very interesting. But you're right the price tag. At
Speaker 4: the end of the day, I asked them what their
Speaker 4: worst case scenario was. They said one point three trillion
Speaker 4: dollars in real estate value gone by twenty thirty in
Speaker 4: these nine global cities. If attendance rates continue to fall
Speaker 4: or even sort of plateau where they are because right
Speaker 4: now in the US, attendance is not going up. We'll
Speaker 4: see if it goes up. We will see if we
Speaker 4: can get above fifty percent of pre COVID levels in
Speaker 4: these ten major cities that are often tracked and that
Speaker 4: we track on the Bloomberg terminal. But I don't know.
Speaker 4: The past two years, we've thought, Okay, Labor Day, everyone's
Speaker 4: going to come back, right, No, for two years straight, No, no, no,
Speaker 4: So we'll see what holds this time around.
Speaker 3: I can imagine a lot of our listeners who don't
Speaker 3: work in an office, maybe they work in manufacturing, or
Speaker 3: they work in retail or drive a delivery vehicle, seeing
Speaker 3: this conversation saying, oh boo, who these people have to
Speaker 3: go to work?
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's That's been sort of a common theme throughout
Speaker 4: the pandemic, is that I think we spend far too
Speaker 4: much time focusing on desk workers, and in terms of
Speaker 4: the coverage, in terms of the re search reports, it's
Speaker 4: always you know, what are the software engineers going to
Speaker 4: do at Google? And you know what are the journalists
Speaker 4: at Bloomberg and the New York Times doing with their
Speaker 4: ARTEO policy? And meanwhile, you have more than half of
Speaker 4: America frontline workers, nurses, teachers, doctors, truck drivers, Walmart cashiers.
Speaker 4: But I think a step back perhaps is required so
Speaker 4: that again, it doesn't just become black or white, or
Speaker 4: you know, a conflict. You know, then all of a
Speaker 4: sudden you've got sort of the frontline workers and the
Speaker 4: knowledge workers sniping at each other when everyone should be
Speaker 4: realizing the way all of us are working has changed.
Speaker 4: And I think there have been improvements, maybe not as
Speaker 4: noticeable improvements for frontline employees, but I think work is
Speaker 4: changing no matter what type of work do you do.
Speaker 3: And Matt, you write about people at the very other
Speaker 3: end of that spectrum, what you call digital nomads.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and these are people who, throughout the pandemic, or
Speaker 4: at some point the pandemic, just said, look, I've got
Speaker 4: a job that I know I can do anywhere from
Speaker 4: anywhere in the world, not just at Starbucks. I'm talking
Speaker 4: about Portugal, I'm talking about the beach, you know, and
Speaker 4: I'm very highly compensated. And my employer either doesn't know
Speaker 4: where I am or doesn't care as long as I
Speaker 4: get my stuff done. Some of them moved upstate New
Speaker 4: York to the Catskills or Lake George or something like that,
Speaker 4: and they used to live in Manhattan or or one
Speaker 4: of the nearby counties, but others went much further afield,
Speaker 4: and countries realizing this, started to roll out all sorts
Speaker 4: of incentives, remote work visas, special visas if you bought
Speaker 4: real estate there, although not everyone did. You also saw
Speaker 4: some cities in the US as well doing this, giving
Speaker 4: incentives to more far flung cities who suddenly said, wow,
Speaker 4: we can attract a lot of workers. Boise is a
Speaker 4: perfect example. Boise, Idaho. I don't think a lot of
Speaker 4: tech workers were living there in let's say the two
Speaker 4: thousand and eight, but during the pandemic, a place like
Speaker 4: that became much more popular, so much so that actually
Speaker 4: property prices guess whatever is the proper prices? When a
Speaker 4: lot of well off, well to do remote workers show up,
Speaker 4: they skyrocket. Sometimes the locals get a little bit annoyed
Speaker 4: at that, and then guess what happens. Sometimes the companies say, oh,
Speaker 4: by the way, we now want you back. You have
Speaker 4: issues around how do we tax those workers. We have
Speaker 4: issues around how do we pay them? Do you give
Speaker 4: a ten percent pay cut to someone who moves from
Speaker 4: San Francisco to Boise or not. What we've seen with
Speaker 4: digital nomads though, is that where cities like Lisbon, when
Speaker 4: a lot of European cities had been very popular, we're
Speaker 4: now seeing a bit of a migration. Both Portugal and
Speaker 4: Ireland have kind of thrown out the welcome matt to
Speaker 4: some of these digital nomads, rescinding some of the benefits
Speaker 4: and visa related stuff they had extended in years past.
Speaker 4: So those digital nomads are smart people. They are just
Speaker 4: packing up and moving to places like soul Ho, Chi
Speaker 4: Minh City, Manila. So what impact they will have on
Speaker 4: those local economies remains to be seen.
Speaker 3: When we come back. So what does the office work
Speaker 3: week of the future look like? Sometht We're seeing companies
Speaker 3: that had two days at home now saying they want
Speaker 3: three days in the office, they want four days in
Speaker 3: the office. Where do you think this is heading?
Speaker 4: Well, I hate to say it depends, but a lot
Speaker 4: does depend. If you go from three days in the
Speaker 4: office to four and your turnover spikes, you know, and
Speaker 4: you lose some of your most creative workers, some of
Speaker 4: your best and brightest, or some of your younger employee
Speaker 4: you know, people that you had spent a lot of
Speaker 4: time recruiting and saying you are the future of the organization.
Speaker 4: If you then lose those folks, I would hope that
Speaker 4: a CEO might rethink that policy unless there's something else
Speaker 4: here or she is really, you know, gaining from it.
Speaker 4: On the other hand, you know, you could go from
Speaker 4: three days to four days, and if you're giving people
Speaker 4: reasons to be on all four of those days, and
Speaker 4: people are able to balance integrate their work and their
Speaker 4: life together, I mean, it's really funny.
Speaker 6: We was.
Speaker 4: We did a column the other week from Sarah Carmichael,
Speaker 4: one of our opinion columnists, who said, these RTEO battles
Speaker 4: sometimes pit spouses against each other where and I know
Speaker 4: that for a fact. I'm in currently three days a week.
Speaker 4: My wife is in two days a week in offices
Speaker 4: in Manhattan. That works out very well because that equals five.
Speaker 4: But if let's just say one of us moved to four,
Speaker 4: or my wife moves from two to three, that is
Speaker 4: going to shake up our life a little bit. Not
Speaker 4: as much as if you know, we had two young
Speaker 4: kids in diapers, but we do have two kids, and
Speaker 4: we were balancing a ton of stuff outside of work
Speaker 4: and outside of the home. What impact will that have?
Speaker 4: We shall certainly see. But I would hope that any
Speaker 4: business leader, any organization is not just going to do
Speaker 4: this as a knee jerk reaction or just because they
Speaker 4: read something about, you know, moving from here to there.
Speaker 4: Talk to your employees, survey them, ask them, you know,
Speaker 4: how the current policy is going.
Speaker 3: Matt, always great talking with you. Thanks for coming on
Speaker 3: the show.
Speaker 4: Thanks a lot. Wes, great to be here.
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening to us here at The Big Take.
Speaker 3: It's a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. For more
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Speaker 3: Email us questions or comments to Big Take at Bloomberg
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Speaker 3: Vicky Bergolina. Our senior producer is Catherine Fink. Our producers
Speaker 3: are Mo Barrow and Michael Falero. Kilde Garcia is our engineer.
Speaker 3: Our original music was composed by Leo Sidrin. I'm Wes Kasova.
Speaker 3: We'll be back tomorrow with another Big Take.