WEBVTT - How The FBI Botched the 2001 Anthrax Scare (Part 1)

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<v Speaker 1>Also media.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey everyone, it's still behind the Bastards. Part two of

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<v Speaker 2>our episodes on how the FBI and the media created

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<v Speaker 2>a monster by repeatedly accusing the wrong people of terrorism,

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<v Speaker 2>and we're talking. We talked to the last episode with

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<v Speaker 2>our guests Courtney Cosak about Richard Jewel and the Olympic

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<v Speaker 2>Park bombing, and in these next two episodes we're going

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<v Speaker 2>to be talking about the two thousand and one anthrax

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<v Speaker 2>attacks in the United States, killed like five people and

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<v Speaker 2>freaked the whole country the fuck out. You know, these

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<v Speaker 2>happened right in the wake of nine to eleven. If

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<v Speaker 2>you're on the younger side of things, I don't think

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<v Speaker 2>this is as famous. But basically, right after nine to eleven,

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<v Speaker 2>a bunch of people, including guys like Tom Dashel, some

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<v Speaker 2>people in government, started receiving letters that had white powder

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<v Speaker 2>in them. Several people got sick and died, mostly folks

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<v Speaker 2>who were just happened to be in and around like

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<v Speaker 2>the mail rooms and stuff where the letters were being opened.

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<v Speaker 2>And they never found who did it, but they had

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<v Speaker 2>a suspect for several years. And that suspect is a

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<v Speaker 2>guy who is a bastard. I think by my standards,

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<v Speaker 2>but is also again not the bad guy of this story,

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<v Speaker 2>and we're gonna spend this episode talking about his life

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<v Speaker 2>and times, because again, he's a fascinating person and I

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<v Speaker 2>think there's a lot on his own. We probably could

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<v Speaker 2>do a Bastard's episode, but the thing he's best known

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<v Speaker 2>for is being wrongly accused of being the Anthrax male guy.

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<v Speaker 2>And it just felt like, I don't know, it seems

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<v Speaker 2>weird to do an episode about how much this guy tucks,

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<v Speaker 2>but also he's fine here, like this wasn't his fault.

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<v Speaker 2>He was done dirty.

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<v Speaker 1>So we're just.

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<v Speaker 2>Talking about, like how both of these in both of

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<v Speaker 2>these terrorist attacks, the same fucked up thing happened thanks

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<v Speaker 2>to the FBI and the media being the kinds of

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<v Speaker 2>Organs that they are.

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<v Speaker 1>Steve our protagonists this time.

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<v Speaker 2>Steve is and this is going to be more of

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<v Speaker 2>a traditional Bastards episode this one, and then in part three,

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<v Speaker 2>whenever we record that, we'll get to the actual Anthrax

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<v Speaker 2>attack and what happened to him. But we have to

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<v Speaker 2>talk about Steve Hatville because who he is and the

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<v Speaker 2>kind of life he leads are what makes him into

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<v Speaker 2>the suspect for this terrorist attack, right, and like is

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<v Speaker 2>why people are is why people in the FBI and

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<v Speaker 2>the media becomes so convinced that it was him, and

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<v Speaker 2>he is a fet He's a perfect candidate for bastards

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<v Speaker 2>like His backstory is insane. He's told a bunch of

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<v Speaker 2>different versions of his life, many of which can't be true.

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<v Speaker 2>Independent reporting has repeatedly shown that, like different things he

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<v Speaker 2>said about his resume and his CV could not have

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<v Speaker 2>happened that way. So there's a lot of really fun

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<v Speaker 2>untangling and record correcting to do. So anyway, let's talk

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<v Speaker 2>about Steve J. Hatville. So. He was born on October

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<v Speaker 2>twenty fourth, nineteen fifty three, in Saint Louis, Missouri. Like me,

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<v Speaker 2>he was raised in Mattoon, Illinois. He was the oldest

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<v Speaker 2>of two kids and the only boy in his family.

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<v Speaker 2>His mother was a homemaker and part time interior decorator,

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<v Speaker 2>and his father was an electrical engineer and salesman. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>the details I've come across don't make it look like

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<v Speaker 2>his childhood was particularly noteworthy. There's no major trauma or

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<v Speaker 2>at least anecdotes that we have that foreshadow the man

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<v Speaker 2>he would become. He describes himself as a bad student

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<v Speaker 2>and told one reporter, I never took a book home

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<v Speaker 2>from school. He did better when it came to electives. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>and he's other one of these like autodid acts, right, Like,

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<v Speaker 2>he reads obsessively, at least according to him. He just

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<v Speaker 2>can't study anything he's not interested in.

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<v Speaker 3>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe it's adhd rain, you know, but he's primarily interested

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<v Speaker 2>in like medical science and military history, and he can't

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<v Speaker 2>make himself care about anything else. He does better when

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<v Speaker 2>it comes to electives. He wrestles for the varsity team.

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<v Speaker 2>In high school, he flies glider planes and is allowed

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<v Speaker 2>a solo pilot a glider at age fourteen, which seems early,

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<v Speaker 2>but you know, go off kid. He graduates Mattoon Senior

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<v Speaker 2>High and is admitted to Southwestern College in Kansas, where

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<v Speaker 2>he majors in biology and joins an ROTC like summer

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<v Speaker 2>leadership program hosted by the Marine Corps. And his goal

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<v Speaker 2>at this point, and this has been his life goal

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<v Speaker 2>for at least his latter adolescent period to the start

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<v Speaker 2>of his adulthood, is to become a fighter pilot for

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<v Speaker 2>the Marine Corps. Right. He wants to fly jet fighters.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it's the coolest job you can do in

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<v Speaker 2>the military. That's what he wants. And so he goes

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<v Speaker 2>in and the Marine Corps tests his vision and it's

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<v Speaker 2>not perfect. And you know what you can't do if

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<v Speaker 2>you don't have naturally prayericvision is fly a fucking jet.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, Like, no, sorry, kid, you're screwed anyway. So this,

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<v Speaker 2>this fucks his life. It seems to have open something

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<v Speaker 2>inside of him because the Marines are like, well, you

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<v Speaker 2>could be a navigator, and he's like, I don't want

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<v Speaker 2>to be a fucking navigator. I want to be a

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<v Speaker 2>fucking top gunjet pilot, like nobody was to be a navigator.

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<v Speaker 2>Come on, that's just such a bummer job. Navigators are

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<v Speaker 2>the bike cops of the piloting world, where it's like,

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<v Speaker 2>this isn't what you signed up to do. And I

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<v Speaker 2>know it, Like I know you don't want to be

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<v Speaker 2>sitting back there. Who needs a navigator anyway? Just bomb wherever.

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<v Speaker 2>That's what I saying what.

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<v Speaker 1>I would be too scared I would be a navigator.

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<v Speaker 1>I hate to say it.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, I mean then I get to be the pilot,

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<v Speaker 2>I guess, so that's a win for me. I have

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<v Speaker 2>my vision.

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<v Speaker 4>I just want to know I do not trust you

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<v Speaker 4>to fly a plane.

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<v Speaker 2>I think I'd be a great fighter pilot. I mean, Sophy,

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<v Speaker 2>look at how many F thirty five's and F twenty

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<v Speaker 2>two's they're crashing these days, F eighteen's. You know I

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<v Speaker 2>could do at least that. Well, I could crash.

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<v Speaker 1>One of those things, Barslow, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I could crash that son of a bitch into whatever,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, a house or I don't care. You're allowed

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<v Speaker 2>to do anything in the Marine Corps, I assume. So

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<v Speaker 2>he doesn't join the Marine Corps though, because again he

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't get to be a pilot. And this kind of

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<v Speaker 2>I get the feeling reading his backstory that this kind

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<v Speaker 2>of like shatters him. So he cut He partially drops

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<v Speaker 2>out of it's less accuracy. He drops out of college

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<v Speaker 2>because you will go back, but he like suspends his

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<v Speaker 2>college education and just flies to Africa. Now he's got

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<v Speaker 2>no formal medical training, but he finds a mission hospital

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<v Speaker 2>in the Congo. This is not a safe place, This

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<v Speaker 2>is not an easy place to get to. So he

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<v Speaker 2>travels and he doesn't reach out to them beforehand. He

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<v Speaker 2>travels to the Congo, finds this mission doing like medical work.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like a missionary hospital type deal, and is like, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>can I help? And the people running this mission are

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<v Speaker 2>Glenna and Lena eshtruth. Lena describes the nineteen year old

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<v Speaker 2>Steve as being something of a mystery when he showed

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<v Speaker 2>up quote, nobody sent him. I don't even know how

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<v Speaker 2>he knew about us. But they're like, well, he's he's

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<v Speaker 2>volunteering and we don't have enough people, so let's take

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<v Speaker 2>him in. I mean, if nothing else, he seems like

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<v Speaker 2>a lone white kid in the Congo, so he should

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<v Speaker 2>probably not just let him wander off. So they take

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<v Speaker 2>him in and he works there and they taught him.

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<v Speaker 2>He learns, you know, the basics of hematology and parasitology, right,

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<v Speaker 2>Like he's not enough that he could be a practitioner,

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<v Speaker 2>but enough that he knows that he's interested in getting

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<v Speaker 2>a real medical education. Right. He gets some hands on

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<v Speaker 2>experience and he's like, oh, this is almost as good

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<v Speaker 2>as killing people in a plane. So he were what

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, he's not quite as good. Every doctor would

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<v Speaker 2>rather be dropping a j dam. You know, we all

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<v Speaker 2>know that.

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<v Speaker 3>But he does have balls though that part is consistent,

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<v Speaker 3>Like that part is consistent, Yeah, yes, yeah, I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>Straight to the Congo, I think we should.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't think doctor our friend doctor Hodo would agree.

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<v Speaker 2>You don't think that. I think I think he would

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<v Speaker 2>agree that it takes the balls to just at nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>go straight to the Congo to see if you can

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<v Speaker 2>fight the place to work. It's like an American who

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<v Speaker 2>grew up in the suburbs. So he returns to the

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<v Speaker 2>US after this like year he'spens like I think it's

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<v Speaker 2>about a year in the Congo, and he goes back

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<v Speaker 2>to Southwestern and he finishes and gets his degree. He

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<v Speaker 2>gets his undergraduate degree in nineteen seventy five, at which

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<v Speaker 2>point he joins the Army. Now, every version of the

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<v Speaker 2>story that hat Phil tells, and quite a few of

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<v Speaker 2>the articles about Hatfill that are written by reporters who

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<v Speaker 2>talk to him, will repeat this next part, because he

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<v Speaker 2>claims that as soon as he joins the Army, he

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<v Speaker 2>gets into the Green Berets. Do you know what the

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<v Speaker 2>Green Berets are, Courtney.

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<v Speaker 1>They're special, They're special.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a yeah, they're very special boys. Some of the

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<v Speaker 2>specialist boys in the whole army. That's right, guys, it's

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<v Speaker 2>a special forces unit. They're more focused on like the

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<v Speaker 2>Green Beraves are the guys you send in if you've

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<v Speaker 2>got if you have a bunch of like local militia

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<v Speaker 2>tie that you want to train up into a fighting

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<v Speaker 2>force to fuck with whatever country that you're having a

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<v Speaker 2>great power conflict with, you send them the Green Berets

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<v Speaker 2>and they spend long periods of time, you know, in

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<v Speaker 2>the wilderness basically training people how to be insurgents. That's

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<v Speaker 2>kind of their gig, right, That's that's what the Green

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<v Speaker 2>Berets do.

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<v Speaker 1>Is it like Navy Seal adjacent?

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<v Speaker 2>Yah, it's at that level of special forces, right, like they.

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<v Speaker 1>Come in before or their trainers.

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<v Speaker 2>They just do different things. They do it like the

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<v Speaker 2>Navy Seals are more of the guys carrying out assassinations.

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<v Speaker 2>The Green Berets are more the guys who are trying

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<v Speaker 2>to teach, you know, indigenous allies how to set up

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<v Speaker 2>trip wires in the jungle or whatever, or carry out

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<v Speaker 2>ambushes on NVA caravans if we're talking about like Vietnam

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<v Speaker 2>or whatever. So hat Phil claims to have joined the

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<v Speaker 2>Green Berets, and most of the news articles about him

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<v Speaker 2>say that he joined the Green Berets. The standard version

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<v Speaker 2>of that story I'm going to quote from an Atlantic

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<v Speaker 2>article by David Freed. Here, he took a direct enlistment

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<v Speaker 2>option to join the Green Berets, attended parachute school, trained

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<v Speaker 2>as a radio operator, and was assigned to the Army's

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<v Speaker 2>seventh Special Forces Group at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. When

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<v Speaker 2>a back injury eventually disqualified him from serving with an

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<v Speaker 2>operational a team, Hatfill re entered civilian life. He joined

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<v Speaker 2>the National Guard, married the daughter of a Methodist surgeon

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<v Speaker 2>he had worked with in Africa, and returned to matun

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<v Speaker 2>to work the night shift as a security guard at

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<v Speaker 2>a radiator factory. Now there's some issues with this version

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<v Speaker 2>of events. First off, he was not in the Green Berets,

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<v Speaker 2>at least not according to reporting by Marilyn Thompson that

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<v Speaker 2>was published in the Washington Post. Quote military records show

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<v Speaker 2>he did enlist in the Army in nineteen seventy five

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<v Speaker 2>and entered the rigorous Special Forces qualification course at Fort

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<v Speaker 2>Bragg in nineteen seventy six, but he didn't last long there.

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<v Speaker 2>After a few weeks he was discharged from active duty

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<v Speaker 2>and wound up in the Army and National Guard. So

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<v Speaker 2>that's a really different version of events.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like not making it through boot camp. Is that

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<v Speaker 1>what happened?

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<v Speaker 2>He made it through boot camp, he doesn't make it

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<v Speaker 2>through Special Force his qualifying school, and then he changes

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<v Speaker 2>from being enlisted in active duty to being in the

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<v Speaker 2>National Guard. So something happened. We don't really I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know that we'll ever know what, but something happened to

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<v Speaker 2>where like he not only make is it made clear

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<v Speaker 2>that he's not going to be in Special Forces, but

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<v Speaker 2>he's not going to be active duty right like, So

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<v Speaker 2>this is a fairly rapid shift for him, and it

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<v Speaker 2>suggests that something went really wrong during his Special Forces

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<v Speaker 2>of qualification course. It may just have been that he

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<v Speaker 2>was he couldn't make the cut, but for whatever reason,

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<v Speaker 2>this is not something he does. But he will spend

0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:36.080
<v Speaker 2>a lot of his life. A lot of articles about

0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:38.240
<v Speaker 2>this guy say that he was a Green Beret right

0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:42.360
<v Speaker 2>in his she was yeah, in his mind, he was sure.

0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:47.040
<v Speaker 2>So that's a very different version of events. And that

0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:50.400
<v Speaker 2>Atlantic article also describes Hatfill's first marriage in a way

0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:53.120
<v Speaker 2>that leaves out some details present in other accounts. It

0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:55.840
<v Speaker 2>sounds like a Bruce Spreensting song there, like, oh, he

0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:58.480
<v Speaker 2>got injured so he couldn't deploy, and he had to.

0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:01.640
<v Speaker 2>You know, he married the duck of a Methodist surgeon

0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:03.440
<v Speaker 2>and he went on to be a security guard and

0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:08.880
<v Speaker 2>a radiator factory. You know that's not not true. But

0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:12.040
<v Speaker 2>when you kind of describe it that way, you lose

0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:16.240
<v Speaker 2>some important context. Because Steve fell in love when he

0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:20.679
<v Speaker 2>was in Africa with the esh Truth's teenage daughter, Carolyn.

0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:22.840
<v Speaker 2>Now they're close to the same age. He's like nineteen.

0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:26.920
<v Speaker 2>I think she's seventeen and turns eighteen, right, so the

0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:29.120
<v Speaker 2>age thing is not a big deal. Yeah, I say teenage,

0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:30.880
<v Speaker 2>but he's teenage too. I don't want it to make

0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:32.880
<v Speaker 2>it out like I'm saying he was being creepy. I

0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:34.520
<v Speaker 2>don't think it's weird for a seventeen year old and

0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:38.120
<v Speaker 2>nineteen year old to get interested in each other or whatever.

0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:42.240
<v Speaker 2>They get married in nineteen seventy six, and in April

0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:46.520
<v Speaker 2>of nineteen seventy seven, her dad, Glenn, is captured by

0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:50.600
<v Speaker 2>mercenaries who invaded Zyir from Angola, and he's executed. He's

0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:55.080
<v Speaker 2>found dead several weeks later, and the Washington Post reports

0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:58.840
<v Speaker 2>quote Hatfill's marriage soured quickly after his father in law's death.

0:12:59.080 --> 0:13:01.600
<v Speaker 2>He accompanied Carolyn to a funeral service in Michigan, and

0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:04.360
<v Speaker 2>that was the last time Lena Estruth saw him. He

0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:06.880
<v Speaker 2>and Carolyn divorced in nineteen seventy eight. He had no

0:13:07.000 --> 0:13:10.000
<v Speaker 2>contact with his only child, a daughter named Kayman, who

0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:12.840
<v Speaker 2>was born shortly before the divorce, until several years ago.

0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:18.880
<v Speaker 2>Carolyn Estruth says, so why, I don't know that it was,

0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:21.760
<v Speaker 2>but it's just after he dies the marriage. It may

0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:25.320
<v Speaker 2>just have not been. They meet when they're teenagers. Maybe

0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:27.360
<v Speaker 2>they were just never gonna Yeah, I don't know what

0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:30.480
<v Speaker 2>happened here, but he leaves and he has nothing to

0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:32.680
<v Speaker 2>do with his kid, right. I don't know if I'd

0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:35.920
<v Speaker 2>say he abandoned them because I'm unaware of Like is

0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:39.680
<v Speaker 2>he paying any form of alimony? Is he sending child support?

0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:42.560
<v Speaker 2>None of that is not the fire of the year, Bud.

0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:45.160
<v Speaker 2>He's gone right like he bounces.

0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:45.560
<v Speaker 4>You know.

0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:48.720
<v Speaker 2>Now, part of why Steve is not around for his

0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:53.040
<v Speaker 2>daughter's life is that right after he gets out, like

0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:56.800
<v Speaker 2>right after this divorce happens, and after he graduates, he

0:13:56.880 --> 0:14:00.000
<v Speaker 2>returns to Africa. Now, like the rest is Steve's life.

0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:04.160
<v Speaker 2>There are conflicting stories here, but what we can what's

0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:07.280
<v Speaker 2>definitely solid, what we know is that in nineteen seventy eight.

0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:09.720
<v Speaker 2>As soon as he divorces his wife and leaves his

0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:13.800
<v Speaker 2>kid and ex wife behind, he moves to Rhodesia. That's

0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:17.960
<v Speaker 2>his first stop. Now, Rhodesia does not exist today, but

0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:21.080
<v Speaker 2>it was at the time a white supremacist pariah state.

0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:23.640
<v Speaker 2>This is a British colony where a tiny number of

0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:27.040
<v Speaker 2>white people ruled over a larger number of black people

0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:30.240
<v Speaker 2>who had a very different set of rights under the

0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:36.280
<v Speaker 2>laws of that country. Rhodesia basically becomes a pariah state

0:14:36.360 --> 0:14:40.120
<v Speaker 2>because they refuse to give up or transition like away

0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:44.280
<v Speaker 2>from this system of government effectively, and they get wind

0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:46.760
<v Speaker 2>up being blacklisted by everyone, right like the British government,

0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:48.520
<v Speaker 2>whoy're supposed to they were supposed to be a colony

0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:51.760
<v Speaker 2>of refuses to recognize them. You're not supposed to trade

0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:54.680
<v Speaker 2>with Rhodesia, You're not supposed to certainly not supposed to

0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:58.000
<v Speaker 2>sell them guns. South Africa is basically their big economic

0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:01.560
<v Speaker 2>lifeline in addition, like the Portuguese colonies. But it's a

0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:03.800
<v Speaker 2>really sketchy situation, and by the time he moves there

0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:07.880
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen seventy eight, Rhodesia is like an international pariah.

0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:12.320
<v Speaker 2>They are the white separatist state, right, the white supremacist

0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:13.400
<v Speaker 2>pariah state. Right?

0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:17.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you just made so many references to Rhodesia that

0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:18.640
<v Speaker 3>I've heard and not understood.

0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:20.480
<v Speaker 1>Finally makes sense.

0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:24.280
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, yeah, I love Rode, one of my favorite stories.

0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:29.440
<v Speaker 2>So again, Rhodesia doesn't exist anymore because about two years

0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:31.840
<v Speaker 2>after he moves there, they lose their war to these

0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:36.600
<v Speaker 2>Marxist insurgents and becomes Zimbabwe. But for the last two

0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:40.920
<v Speaker 2>years that Rhodesia exists, that's where Steve hat Phil lives

0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:44.160
<v Speaker 2>and he attends the Godfrey Huggins School of Medicine in Salisbury,

0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:47.720
<v Speaker 2>which I think was the capital. So choosing to move

0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:51.960
<v Speaker 2>to Rhodesia in nineteen seventy eight, is it minimum morally questionable?

0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:52.480
<v Speaker 5>Right?

0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:55.880
<v Speaker 2>Nobody just travels there because you're like Rhodesia, the name

0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:59.680
<v Speaker 2>sounds nice. You're aware in the news that the whole

0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:03.840
<v Speaker 2>world considers them a pariah for the racism and the

0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:07.320
<v Speaker 2>brutal Bush War that they're persecuting, which is killing huge

0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:12.080
<v Speaker 2>numbers of civilians, which means that Steve probably didn't have

0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:15.720
<v Speaker 2>an issue with that. Right, the white supremacist government was

0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:17.920
<v Speaker 2>clinging to power wherever it could and the state security

0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:21.240
<v Speaker 2>forces were committing war crimes with reckless abandon hat. Phil

0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:23.960
<v Speaker 2>would later claim that during his time in Rhodesia, he

0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:27.360
<v Speaker 2>volunteered as a medic for the Rhodesian Army and was

0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:31.120
<v Speaker 2>attached to the Sellus Scouts, which was Rhodesia's answer to

0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:35.200
<v Speaker 2>the Navy Seals. Right, this is Rhodesia's special premier special

0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:39.880
<v Speaker 2>forces organization. And again you see this repeated constantly in

0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:42.400
<v Speaker 2>articles about him, that yeah, and he a lot of

0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:44.640
<v Speaker 2>times they'll just say he was one of the Sellu Scouts.

0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:47.400
<v Speaker 2>He was a member of this elite unit. The Atlantic

0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:49.960
<v Speaker 2>reports that, yeah, he was a medica attached to the unit.

0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:54.600
<v Speaker 2>I've seen both ways. Neither seem to be true. So

0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:58.360
<v Speaker 2>the Sellus Scouts and the Rhodesian military occupy a place

0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:01.480
<v Speaker 2>of honor within the modern far right conception of military

0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:05.600
<v Speaker 2>history because of the way this Bush conflict between these

0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:09.200
<v Speaker 2>insurgents that represent a much larger portion of the country

0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:13.800
<v Speaker 2>and the military, which is a mixed race military but

0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:17.960
<v Speaker 2>exists to support the white supremacist state. Rhodesa kind of

0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:21.560
<v Speaker 2>invents modern counter insurgent warfare tactics. A lot of stuff

0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:23.399
<v Speaker 2>that you see that you've seen the US in the

0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:26.000
<v Speaker 2>Global waruntary using in Afghanistan, in Iraq. There like huge

0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:30.320
<v Speaker 2>route clearance vehicles that are like up armored to survive IEDs.

0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:33.560
<v Speaker 2>The way in which like patrols are done, the way

0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:37.840
<v Speaker 2>in which like you attempt to isolate problem villages or

0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:40.359
<v Speaker 2>like all of these different tactics for how you're supposed

0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:43.199
<v Speaker 2>to deal with in it to smoke out insurgents. The

0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:50.119
<v Speaker 2>modern like insurgent warfare Handbook gets written by Rhodesia right now,

0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:55.000
<v Speaker 2>It's fascinating, this is arguably accurate, but it's not anything

0:17:55.040 --> 0:17:58.119
<v Speaker 2>to be proud of, because, yeah, Rhodesia does pioneer a

0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:02.959
<v Speaker 2>lot of modern counterinsurgent warfare tactics. They don't win, they lose,

0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:06.600
<v Speaker 2>and by the way, every country who copied their tactics,

0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:09.639
<v Speaker 2>including the US, also loses a lot of the wars

0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:13.600
<v Speaker 2>that they use those tactics. And these aren't successful tactics,

0:18:14.160 --> 0:18:18.959
<v Speaker 2>they're just tactics, like and so there's this whole like, well, there, Rhodesians,

0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:21.160
<v Speaker 2>they were the ones who really before anyone else knew

0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:23.679
<v Speaker 2>what the future of warfare was gonna be. And so

0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:25.760
<v Speaker 2>you get a lot of like people nerding out of

0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:27.280
<v Speaker 2>the Rhodesian Army over that, and you get a lot

0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:30.920
<v Speaker 2>of people assessing over the Sellu Scouts, in particular because

0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:33.639
<v Speaker 2>after Rhodisia fell in nineteen eighty a bunch of former

0:18:33.720 --> 0:18:37.639
<v Speaker 2>Scouts wrote articles and memoirs about their combat experiences that

0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:42.520
<v Speaker 2>massively exaggerated how good they had been. Again, they lose

0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:46.360
<v Speaker 2>the war. And this all feeds into starting in the eighties,

0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:50.000
<v Speaker 2>there's this growing worship of like special forces that's almost

0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:52.440
<v Speaker 2>like a cult, right. It reaches its height during the

0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:55.119
<v Speaker 2>Global War on Terar, But this is we start. It

0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:57.359
<v Speaker 2>becomes in the media. There's more and more movies about

0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:01.480
<v Speaker 2>special forces units, and so especially for people on the

0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:06.480
<v Speaker 2>far right, the Sellu Scouts are like this, Uh, they're idolized, right,

0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:08.600
<v Speaker 2>And so like the fact that hat Phil really wants

0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:11.199
<v Speaker 2>people to believe he was in this unit makes a

0:19:11.240 --> 0:19:14.639
<v Speaker 2>lot of sense given his Again, this guy today is

0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:18.639
<v Speaker 2>in the Trump administration, given his politics, and just given

0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:21.639
<v Speaker 2>socially what's what's going on, I'm not surprised he wanted

0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:23.000
<v Speaker 2>to be affiliated with this.

0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:25.879
<v Speaker 1>Unit racist special forces. What could be the.

0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:30.760
<v Speaker 2>Most racist special forces? Yes, like the Sellu Scouts and

0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:33.520
<v Speaker 2>the SS both use the same acronym so that's that's

0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:37.680
<v Speaker 2>that's easy. Now. That said, there's good reason to doubt

0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:39.600
<v Speaker 2>that he had anything to do with the Scouts. Per

0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:42.920
<v Speaker 2>the Washington Post, Hatfill's resume also claimed that he'd served

0:19:42.960 --> 0:19:44.920
<v Speaker 2>as a Sello Scout that was time in the Rhodesian

0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:48.120
<v Speaker 2>military overlapped with his time in the US Army. Rhodesian

0:19:48.119 --> 0:19:50.520
<v Speaker 2>military records have been hard to find, but Sello Scouts

0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:53.560
<v Speaker 2>veterans told reporters they'd never heard of Hatfill. The true

0:19:53.600 --> 0:19:56.560
<v Speaker 2>circumstances of his connection with the unit, if any, remain unclear.

0:19:56.760 --> 0:19:59.560
<v Speaker 2>So I can't say he didn't he didn't have any

0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:01.880
<v Speaker 2>connection with them. I don't know. Maybe he was sent

0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:06.639
<v Speaker 2>somewhere as a scout, but we don't have evidence really

0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:10.480
<v Speaker 2>other than his word that I've seen, so given the

0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:12.720
<v Speaker 2>other discrepancies in his background, I would need to see

0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:15.000
<v Speaker 2>some actual evidence that he served with his unit to

0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:17.960
<v Speaker 2>believe stories like the one he told The Atlantic Quote.

0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:20.919
<v Speaker 2>While he was in Rhodesia, Hatfield says a truck he

0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:23.920
<v Speaker 2>was writing and was ambushed by Marxist insurgents. Leaping from

0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:26.639
<v Speaker 2>the truck, he landed on his face, badly breaking his nose.

0:20:28.000 --> 0:20:30.639
<v Speaker 2>He claims, gives him like a lifelong breathing injury that

0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:34.440
<v Speaker 2>will be relevant a little bit later. But again, did

0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:37.240
<v Speaker 2>that happen? Did he just break his nose some other way?

0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:40.320
<v Speaker 2>Did he have any exciting encounters with insurgents at all?

0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:44.240
<v Speaker 2>Unclear to me. Now, there is some evidence to suggest

0:20:44.240 --> 0:20:46.879
<v Speaker 2>that his habit of exaggerating the truth dates back at

0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:49.159
<v Speaker 2>least as far as his time in college. One of

0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:52.440
<v Speaker 2>his former classmates told Simon Cooper from the Observer quote,

0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:54.960
<v Speaker 2>he was an extraordinary guy and very very bright, but

0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:57.320
<v Speaker 2>he was also a real Walter Midty kind of character,

0:20:57.400 --> 0:21:00.320
<v Speaker 2>and he would tell these enormous, awful lies. He once

0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:03.960
<v Speaker 2>told me his wife died in the Congo, and again

0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:09.000
<v Speaker 2>he just left. They divorced. He left her with the kid,

0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:12.400
<v Speaker 2>her dad died in the Congo. Yeah, and that gives

0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:15.360
<v Speaker 2>you something too. Where like he And that's why I think, Yeah,

0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:18.119
<v Speaker 2>he may have been embedded with some chunk of the

0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:21.600
<v Speaker 2>Rhodesian military as a medic, or maybe back at base

0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:25.320
<v Speaker 2>he treated some Selu scouts or something. It's usually a

0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:29.520
<v Speaker 2>degree of like truth that were then exaggerating.

0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:30.119
<v Speaker 1>Right.

0:21:30.240 --> 0:21:33.560
<v Speaker 2>He went to Fort Bragg, he got did the Special

0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:37.440
<v Speaker 2>Forces like tests, but he didn't god become a green Beret, right,

0:21:37.600 --> 0:21:41.200
<v Speaker 2>like he's kind of making ends meet in his stories

0:21:41.240 --> 0:21:45.399
<v Speaker 2>a lot of the time. But you know who always

0:21:45.480 --> 0:21:50.239
<v Speaker 2>tells the truth me sponsors. That's right, that's right. They

0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:52.080
<v Speaker 2>would never pretend to have been a member of the

0:21:52.160 --> 0:21:54.639
<v Speaker 2>Rhodesian military because they were it. They served in the

0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:58.480
<v Speaker 2>Rhodesian military. All of our sponsors former Rhodesian Special Forces.

0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:01.399
<v Speaker 2>It should We didn't right to mega that way. It's weird.

0:22:03.720 --> 0:22:05.600
<v Speaker 1>Your first instinct is to slam.

0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:11.959
<v Speaker 2>They love it. It's like negging, you know, like that

0:22:12.000 --> 0:22:15.000
<v Speaker 2>doesn't actually work for dating the pickup artist guys are

0:22:15.040 --> 0:22:18.159
<v Speaker 2>wrong about that, but it's incredible for advertising.

0:22:18.080 --> 0:22:18.879
<v Speaker 1>Cor for people.

0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:21.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, no, sometimes I'll just walk I just walked

0:22:21.440 --> 0:22:23.560
<v Speaker 2>into Ford's offices the other day and I was like, oh,

0:22:23.600 --> 0:22:25.920
<v Speaker 2>you guys, this in F one fifty call it like

0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:28.760
<v Speaker 2>an F seventy five, you know. I was like half

0:22:28.800 --> 0:22:31.480
<v Speaker 2>a truck maybe, and they just walked out and they

0:22:31.600 --> 0:22:35.439
<v Speaker 2>just mailed us at check. Oh yeah, that's how you

0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:37.240
<v Speaker 2>do it, people negging.

0:22:38.119 --> 0:22:38.480
<v Speaker 6>Here's that.

0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:50.040
<v Speaker 2>And we're back. So yeah, it's worth noting because of

0:22:50.080 --> 0:22:53.480
<v Speaker 2>what comes later that Hatfield's time in Rhodesia did directly

0:22:53.600 --> 0:22:56.439
<v Speaker 2>overlap with something that's going to be very relevant to

0:22:57.280 --> 0:22:59.760
<v Speaker 2>the thing that's going to come to define his adult life,

0:22:59.760 --> 0:23:02.600
<v Speaker 2>which is the anthrax attacks in the United States, because

0:23:02.640 --> 0:23:06.600
<v Speaker 2>while he is in Rhodesia, Rhodesia suffers the largest, one

0:23:06.600 --> 0:23:10.160
<v Speaker 2>of the largest anthrax epidemics ever seen in history. Right

0:23:10.400 --> 0:23:12.960
<v Speaker 2>from nineteen seventy eight to nineteen eighty, the years that

0:23:13.040 --> 0:23:16.800
<v Speaker 2>he's there, thousands and thousands of cattle and several hundred

0:23:16.880 --> 0:23:21.600
<v Speaker 2>human beings are killed by anthrax exposure in Rhodesia. Now,

0:23:22.200 --> 0:23:25.520
<v Speaker 2>we don't fully know why this happened, and I want

0:23:25.560 --> 0:23:29.800
<v Speaker 2>to stay up top anthrax. We don't. People, when you

0:23:29.800 --> 0:23:32.760
<v Speaker 2>hear anthraxs you think it's like a weapon, right, Anthrax

0:23:32.840 --> 0:23:35.840
<v Speaker 2>is a natural thing, like it occurs. There are places,

0:23:35.920 --> 0:23:37.680
<v Speaker 2>Rhodesia is one of them. There are places in the

0:23:37.720 --> 0:23:41.040
<v Speaker 2>world where livestock just get anthrax like it's an outbreak.

0:23:41.200 --> 0:23:45.280
<v Speaker 2>It's a bacteria, you know, like and livestock if you

0:23:45.400 --> 0:23:47.600
<v Speaker 2>are not taking proper care of them. If you're not

0:23:48.440 --> 0:23:50.760
<v Speaker 2>and in an area where anthrax is and endemic, they

0:23:50.760 --> 0:23:53.840
<v Speaker 2>can get anthrax and they can spread anthrax to people.

0:23:54.200 --> 0:23:56.960
<v Speaker 2>Right now, the kind of exposure human beings tend to

0:23:57.000 --> 0:24:00.199
<v Speaker 2>get when exposed to like livestock that have anthrax is

0:24:00.240 --> 0:24:04.440
<v Speaker 2>different from say, inhaling anthrax that has been like weaponized

0:24:04.440 --> 0:24:07.119
<v Speaker 2>and turned into this like fine powder, that's much deadlier,

0:24:07.160 --> 0:24:11.080
<v Speaker 2>You're less likely to die. But anthrax can just happen

0:24:11.200 --> 0:24:13.199
<v Speaker 2>and does just happen and has nothing to do with

0:24:13.240 --> 0:24:14.320
<v Speaker 2>anybody using a weapon.

0:24:14.440 --> 0:24:18.679
<v Speaker 5>Right, was this targeted like the version that you're talking about.

0:24:19.640 --> 0:24:23.480
<v Speaker 2>We don't know. Maybe is the answer I'll give you.

0:24:23.560 --> 0:24:29.200
<v Speaker 2>Because Rhodesia had a massive chemical and biological weapons program,

0:24:29.320 --> 0:24:33.160
<v Speaker 2>and they used chemical and biological weapons on insurgents. Right,

0:24:33.359 --> 0:24:35.920
<v Speaker 2>So there's there, and there's there's good reasons to think

0:24:36.000 --> 0:24:39.960
<v Speaker 2>that this massive pandemic may have been started by the

0:24:40.640 --> 0:24:48.400
<v Speaker 2>Rhodesian military using biological weapons. There's a couple of expect this. Yeah,

0:24:48.000 --> 0:24:51.840
<v Speaker 2>the pandemic almost exclusively affected cattle on what we're called

0:24:51.920 --> 0:24:55.760
<v Speaker 2>tribal trust lands, which are subsistent farms operated by the

0:24:55.760 --> 0:24:59.199
<v Speaker 2>majority black population, and it tended to skip over the

0:24:59.240 --> 0:25:01.200
<v Speaker 2>herds of white owned commercial farms.

0:25:01.400 --> 0:25:01.600
<v Speaker 3>Right.

0:25:02.720 --> 0:25:06.200
<v Speaker 2>The people who died were all black Rhodesians, and nearly

0:25:06.240 --> 0:25:08.320
<v Speaker 2>all of the human beings who got exposed to anthrax

0:25:08.400 --> 0:25:09.600
<v Speaker 2>in Rhodesia were black.

0:25:10.359 --> 0:25:12.119
<v Speaker 1>That is racist bacteria.

0:25:12.760 --> 0:25:16.840
<v Speaker 2>It's a racist bacteria. Yeah, Rhodesia had four years used

0:25:16.920 --> 0:25:20.560
<v Speaker 2>chemical weapons and disease to try and murder Marxist guerrilla fighters,

0:25:20.600 --> 0:25:23.800
<v Speaker 2>in part because they couldn't buy traditional weapons from most

0:25:23.840 --> 0:25:25.720
<v Speaker 2>other countries, so they were really kind of scraping the

0:25:25.720 --> 0:25:27.879
<v Speaker 2>barrel of like what kind of weapons systems can we

0:25:27.920 --> 0:25:32.679
<v Speaker 2>put together? So as their chances of victory declined, doctor

0:25:32.760 --> 0:25:35.200
<v Speaker 2>Robert Simington, who was a professor at the Unity of

0:25:35.280 --> 0:25:39.280
<v Speaker 2>Rhodesha's medical school where Steve Hatfill studied, urged the country

0:25:39.280 --> 0:25:42.879
<v Speaker 2>to adopt a new counterinsurgency program based on chemical and

0:25:42.920 --> 0:25:46.920
<v Speaker 2>biological weapons. The government agreed to summarize how this worked out.

0:25:46.920 --> 0:25:48.520
<v Speaker 2>I want to quote now from an article in the

0:25:48.600 --> 0:25:52.280
<v Speaker 2>journal Curious by Matthew Turner, drawing from a number of

0:25:52.280 --> 0:25:55.480
<v Speaker 2>medical and veterinary students from the University of Rhodesia. Simington

0:25:55.480 --> 0:25:58.920
<v Speaker 2>allegedly began human experimentation as early as nineteen seventy five.

0:25:59.280 --> 0:26:03.159
<v Speaker 2>The CBW program experimented with a number of compounds, including warfarin,

0:26:03.440 --> 0:26:08.600
<v Speaker 2>paratheon thallium, and vibro cholera. Doctor Symington was said by

0:26:08.640 --> 0:26:11.679
<v Speaker 2>one officer to have killed more terrorists than the Rodesian

0:26:11.760 --> 0:26:14.840
<v Speaker 2>Light Infantry during certain months of the war, the CBW

0:26:14.960 --> 0:26:17.800
<v Speaker 2>program saw its greatest successes with the use of parathion,

0:26:17.960 --> 0:26:23.280
<v Speaker 2>an organophosphate used in pesticides. In isolated locations, CBW employees

0:26:23.320 --> 0:26:26.920
<v Speaker 2>soaked hundreds of articles of clothing and parathion solutions, afterwards

0:26:27.000 --> 0:26:29.760
<v Speaker 2>drying them to eliminate the smell. The poison clothing was

0:26:29.800 --> 0:26:32.840
<v Speaker 2>then distributed to gorilla forces through local contacts who had

0:26:32.840 --> 0:26:36.840
<v Speaker 2>directly donate it to gorilla recruits by contaminating discovered caches

0:26:36.840 --> 0:26:39.399
<v Speaker 2>of gorilla supplies or by stalking stores that were in

0:26:39.440 --> 0:26:43.119
<v Speaker 2>gorilla heavy areas and expected to be ransacked. Other uses

0:26:43.119 --> 0:26:46.560
<v Speaker 2>of CBW included the deliberate poisoning of food stuffs with

0:26:46.600 --> 0:26:49.680
<v Speaker 2>thallium and warfarin, as well as deployment of cholera to

0:26:49.720 --> 0:26:52.960
<v Speaker 2>contaminate water sources known to be frequented by guerrillas. The

0:26:53.040 --> 0:26:55.680
<v Speaker 2>use of cholera and warfare made Rhodesia the first nation

0:26:55.800 --> 0:26:59.080
<v Speaker 2>to intentionally deploy biological weapons after the nineteen seventy five

0:26:59.119 --> 0:27:04.360
<v Speaker 2>passage of the Biological Weapons Convention. Again, great guys, great country,

0:27:04.520 --> 0:27:10.240
<v Speaker 2>really really good people. And again this is where he

0:27:10.320 --> 0:27:15.160
<v Speaker 2>chooses to go to medical school. It says a lot

0:27:15.200 --> 0:27:17.159
<v Speaker 2>about you that, Yeah, this is where you wanted to

0:27:17.200 --> 0:27:21.000
<v Speaker 2>be at this point in your life. Now, we do

0:27:21.119 --> 0:27:24.320
<v Speaker 2>know the Rhodesian military absolutely did and is confirmed to

0:27:24.359 --> 0:27:28.520
<v Speaker 2>have weaponized and used anthras on human beings on multiple occasions.

0:27:28.880 --> 0:27:32.280
<v Speaker 2>The elite SELLU scouts actually used like we're one of

0:27:32.280 --> 0:27:36.240
<v Speaker 2>the groups that deployed anthrax against like targeted groups of gorillas.

0:27:36.359 --> 0:27:36.560
<v Speaker 6>Right.

0:27:37.920 --> 0:27:41.400
<v Speaker 2>We don't know how many people died from Rhodesian cbwus,

0:27:41.480 --> 0:27:44.000
<v Speaker 2>but it's at least in the hundreds and probably in

0:27:44.040 --> 0:27:46.360
<v Speaker 2>the thousands, and it may account for as many as

0:27:46.359 --> 0:27:49.520
<v Speaker 2>fifteen percent of all casualties in the Bush War. So

0:27:49.640 --> 0:27:52.240
<v Speaker 2>this is fucked up and important. But I also need

0:27:52.280 --> 0:27:54.720
<v Speaker 2>to end this digression on a counterintuitive note, which is

0:27:54.760 --> 0:27:58.000
<v Speaker 2>that that all makes it really seem like, Okay, well

0:27:58.000 --> 0:28:00.800
<v Speaker 2>they definitely cause that anthrax outbreak nineteen seventy eight to

0:28:00.880 --> 0:28:04.240
<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty, right, obviously they did, right, Yeah, And this

0:28:04.400 --> 0:28:06.240
<v Speaker 2>is kind of I brought it up this way because

0:28:06.240 --> 0:28:09.520
<v Speaker 2>it's it's a good example of why Richard Jewle got

0:28:09.600 --> 0:28:12.640
<v Speaker 2>suspected in the first episode and why Hatfill is going

0:28:12.680 --> 0:28:15.199
<v Speaker 2>to get suspected in this one. Is if you just

0:28:15.440 --> 0:28:18.640
<v Speaker 2>look at a narrow chunk of the facts you can

0:28:18.640 --> 0:28:21.800
<v Speaker 2>make a case that while this is the only possible thing, right,

0:28:21.880 --> 0:28:23.320
<v Speaker 2>if you just read out the facts that I just read,

0:28:23.359 --> 0:28:28.320
<v Speaker 2>you obviously Rhodesia caused this massive pandemic, right, It's the

0:28:28.359 --> 0:28:31.600
<v Speaker 2>only explanation. They were using anthrax as a weapon. Why

0:28:31.640 --> 0:28:35.560
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't they have done this? Right? However, as Matthew Turner

0:28:35.600 --> 0:28:37.440
<v Speaker 2>points out in this study, which is not at all

0:28:37.440 --> 0:28:40.520
<v Speaker 2>sympathetic to the Rhodesian military and talks an extent about

0:28:40.520 --> 0:28:43.840
<v Speaker 2>their horrible warcarms of chemical and biological weapons, there's a

0:28:43.880 --> 0:28:45.480
<v Speaker 2>lot of good reason to believe that this was a

0:28:45.600 --> 0:28:49.440
<v Speaker 2>natural anthrax outbreak. And there's there's some scientific reasons just

0:28:49.480 --> 0:28:52.800
<v Speaker 2>because of the type of anthrax that these animals are

0:28:52.840 --> 0:28:55.680
<v Speaker 2>sick with and how it spreads, that looks more like

0:28:55.720 --> 0:28:58.720
<v Speaker 2>a natural pandemic than one that was used by weaponized anthrax.

0:28:58.720 --> 0:29:01.760
<v Speaker 2>But there's other reasons for one thing, this is late

0:29:01.800 --> 0:29:04.840
<v Speaker 2>in the war. The Rhodesian government is collapsing. They have

0:29:05.000 --> 0:29:09.200
<v Speaker 2>suspended all of their large scale veterinary programs to improve

0:29:09.320 --> 0:29:12.760
<v Speaker 2>livestock health. They had been vaccinating, like dipping and what not,

0:29:13.080 --> 0:29:16.560
<v Speaker 2>all cattle in the country, and that has stopped. By

0:29:16.640 --> 0:29:20.960
<v Speaker 2>nineteen seventy eight, anthrax is naturally endemic to the region,

0:29:21.320 --> 0:29:26.000
<v Speaker 2>and the outbreak occurred alongside other outbreaks that infected cattle populations.

0:29:26.160 --> 0:29:28.560
<v Speaker 2>The anthrax outbreak is one of a number of outbreaks

0:29:28.560 --> 0:29:33.120
<v Speaker 2>that's wiping out cattle in Rhodesia because the state programs

0:29:33.160 --> 0:29:36.960
<v Speaker 2>to treat cattle have gone away because of the war.

0:29:37.400 --> 0:29:41.480
<v Speaker 2>Right now, there's also again we talked about how it

0:29:41.800 --> 0:29:45.560
<v Speaker 2>primarily hit cattle and like these black subsistent farms as

0:29:45.600 --> 0:29:48.320
<v Speaker 2>opposed to like the corp because those farms had money

0:29:48.360 --> 0:29:53.960
<v Speaker 2>and we're able to continue medicating their cattle. Right and again,

0:29:54.000 --> 0:29:56.160
<v Speaker 2>why is it more black? Well, Number one, the vast

0:29:56.160 --> 0:29:58.960
<v Speaker 2>majority of the country's black, and number two, the white

0:29:58.960 --> 0:30:02.480
<v Speaker 2>people are eating and spending their time farming animals that

0:30:02.520 --> 0:30:06.840
<v Speaker 2>have access to good medical care. Right yes, Like so

0:30:07.240 --> 0:30:09.200
<v Speaker 2>when you and again this is going to be the

0:30:09.200 --> 0:30:12.280
<v Speaker 2>case with when Steve Hatfiel gets suspected of If you

0:30:12.320 --> 0:30:15.360
<v Speaker 2>look at one subset of the facts, obviously the guy

0:30:15.400 --> 0:30:17.560
<v Speaker 2>did it. And then if you look peel back and

0:30:17.600 --> 0:30:19.280
<v Speaker 2>look at more of the facts, it's like, well, no,

0:30:19.760 --> 0:30:22.840
<v Speaker 2>maybe I was looking at too narrow a subset of information.

0:30:23.760 --> 0:30:26.840
<v Speaker 2>Now I should say it's still possible Rodisha did this.

0:30:27.280 --> 0:30:32.239
<v Speaker 2>That like the anthrax pandemic was or epidemic was a

0:30:32.240 --> 0:30:35.240
<v Speaker 2>purposeful one that they like were trying to wipe out

0:30:35.240 --> 0:30:38.040
<v Speaker 2>the foods, because we know that they were. It's just

0:30:38.120 --> 0:30:40.400
<v Speaker 2>we have a lot of data on other times they

0:30:40.520 --> 0:30:43.120
<v Speaker 2>used these weapons and this really doesn't look like that.

0:30:43.240 --> 0:30:46.520
<v Speaker 2>It does look a lot more like a natural outbreak.

0:30:46.560 --> 0:30:47.880
<v Speaker 1>They wouldn't have been successful.

0:30:47.960 --> 0:30:51.320
<v Speaker 2>It would fitted no, no, no, like this. It would

0:30:51.320 --> 0:30:52.960
<v Speaker 2>have gone worse because they were they were.

0:30:52.800 --> 0:30:53.360
<v Speaker 1>Bad at this.

0:30:55.240 --> 0:30:58.360
<v Speaker 2>Now I should also note again that because Steve is

0:30:58.400 --> 0:31:00.480
<v Speaker 2>going to be accused of being the Anthra expumber, the

0:31:00.480 --> 0:31:03.840
<v Speaker 2>fact that he is in Rhodesia and allegedly had worked

0:31:03.840 --> 0:31:07.320
<v Speaker 2>with the Sellu scouts who used anthrax and is in

0:31:07.400 --> 0:31:10.480
<v Speaker 2>Rhodesia at the same time as an anthrax outbreak again

0:31:10.920 --> 0:31:12.880
<v Speaker 2>in two thousand and one, people are gonna read about

0:31:12.880 --> 0:31:15.800
<v Speaker 2>this and go, obviously it's this guy, right, it has

0:31:15.880 --> 0:31:19.600
<v Speaker 2>to be him. Now. More diligent reporting and there was

0:31:19.600 --> 0:31:22.200
<v Speaker 2>not nearly enough of that when Steve was being accused,

0:31:22.400 --> 0:31:24.840
<v Speaker 2>would point out, among other things like, okay, but the

0:31:24.880 --> 0:31:28.760
<v Speaker 2>Rhodesian military, this guy's like an American without any real experience,

0:31:28.880 --> 0:31:32.360
<v Speaker 2>who's in med school. Why would they have looped him

0:31:32.360 --> 0:31:36.520
<v Speaker 2>in on their secret, incredibly illegal plans to use deadly

0:31:36.640 --> 0:31:40.640
<v Speaker 2>chemical and biology. He's like fucking twenty, like why would

0:31:40.680 --> 0:31:44.120
<v Speaker 2>they do that? Like he's not who you pick, you

0:31:44.160 --> 0:31:48.440
<v Speaker 2>don't need him, and there's no evidence whatsoever they had

0:31:48.480 --> 0:31:51.440
<v Speaker 2>anything to do with the chemical and biological weapons campaign

0:31:51.480 --> 0:31:55.200
<v Speaker 2>carried out by Rhodesia. It's possible that this is why

0:31:55.200 --> 0:31:58.480
<v Speaker 2>he starts to get interested in chemical and biological weapons,

0:31:58.600 --> 0:32:00.440
<v Speaker 2>which he does, and he's going to become an expert

0:32:00.440 --> 0:32:03.320
<v Speaker 2>on them later, but that speculation on my part. So

0:32:03.400 --> 0:32:06.360
<v Speaker 2>he graduates, I think he has to go from Rhodesia

0:32:06.440 --> 0:32:09.280
<v Speaker 2>to South Africa, but eventually does graduate and he gets

0:32:09.280 --> 0:32:12.080
<v Speaker 2>the equivalent of an MD in nineteen eighty four.

0:32:12.760 --> 0:32:16.360
<v Speaker 3>But they're like actually EU Rhodesian med schools not yet.

0:32:17.320 --> 0:32:22.960
<v Speaker 2>South Africa takes it though they're fine, so this is

0:32:23.000 --> 0:32:25.480
<v Speaker 2>a near thing. In nineteen eighty three, he failed and

0:32:25.520 --> 0:32:28.280
<v Speaker 2>he had to repeat a year of med school. One

0:32:28.320 --> 0:32:30.440
<v Speaker 2>British newspaper reported that when he found this out, he

0:32:30.480 --> 0:32:33.440
<v Speaker 2>had a tantrum in the hallway. The Post interviewed one

0:32:33.440 --> 0:32:36.200
<v Speaker 2>of his former classmates, who told a story about Hatfille

0:32:36.240 --> 0:32:38.680
<v Speaker 2>punching out a peer quote. He is not someone I

0:32:38.720 --> 0:32:43.200
<v Speaker 2>would ever want to cross, wrote another classmate, So maybe not,

0:32:44.120 --> 0:32:46.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, the nicest guy. Although all of these quotes

0:32:46.440 --> 0:32:48.920
<v Speaker 2>do come from when he was suspected of carrying out

0:32:48.960 --> 0:32:51.560
<v Speaker 2>a terrorist attack that killed five people, So part of

0:32:51.600 --> 0:32:53.680
<v Speaker 2>me is like, should I even trust these quotes because

0:32:53.680 --> 0:32:57.320
<v Speaker 2>they're from people who like were deliberately being solicit. That said,

0:32:58.480 --> 0:33:00.400
<v Speaker 2>there's enough in his background to be like, yeah, maybe

0:33:00.400 --> 0:33:02.200
<v Speaker 2>he just was kind of a dick with a short temper.

0:33:02.320 --> 0:33:06.360
<v Speaker 2>You know, two things could be true at once. So

0:33:06.400 --> 0:33:08.959
<v Speaker 2>he becomes a doctor. He does a one year internship

0:33:08.960 --> 0:33:11.720
<v Speaker 2>in a rural South African hospital, after which point he

0:33:11.760 --> 0:33:14.680
<v Speaker 2>is recruited to do a fourteen month tour with South

0:33:14.720 --> 0:33:19.440
<v Speaker 2>Africa's National Antarctic Expedition in the nineteen eighties. Yeah, so

0:33:19.520 --> 0:33:23.960
<v Speaker 2>he does that. Cool career's going well, yeah, yeah, that

0:33:24.000 --> 0:33:26.200
<v Speaker 2>sounds a lot better than what he's going to wind up.

0:33:26.200 --> 0:33:26.880
<v Speaker 1>Doing for a living.

0:33:28.200 --> 0:33:29.920
<v Speaker 4>What school is he attending here?

0:33:31.160 --> 0:33:35.040
<v Speaker 2>It's Cape Town University of Cape Town through the nineteen eighties.

0:33:35.080 --> 0:33:38.320
<v Speaker 2>He gets three master's degrees in different sciences there, and

0:33:38.360 --> 0:33:41.880
<v Speaker 2>he tries to get a PhD. He almost finishes it,

0:33:42.000 --> 0:33:45.960
<v Speaker 2>but his doctoral thesis isn't accepted. We'll come back to

0:33:46.000 --> 0:33:47.840
<v Speaker 2>that later, because this is going to be another case

0:33:48.080 --> 0:33:50.880
<v Speaker 2>like with the Green Berets, where he almost had a

0:33:50.920 --> 0:33:54.200
<v Speaker 2>PhD but he didn't And some of the things, some

0:33:54.280 --> 0:33:57.400
<v Speaker 2>of the the resumes he writes out are sure gonna

0:33:57.440 --> 0:33:58.480
<v Speaker 2>say PhD.

0:33:58.960 --> 0:33:59.200
<v Speaker 3>Right.

0:34:01.800 --> 0:34:04.000
<v Speaker 2>So, during his years as a student in South Africa,

0:34:04.040 --> 0:34:06.200
<v Speaker 2>hat Phil is alleged to have run into more conflicts

0:34:06.200 --> 0:34:09.359
<v Speaker 2>with his peers, per The Washington Post reporting a Johannesburg

0:34:09.440 --> 0:34:11.959
<v Speaker 2>newspaper reporter that hat Phil had carried a gun into

0:34:12.000 --> 0:34:15.160
<v Speaker 2>South African medical laboratories and boasted the colleagues that he'd

0:34:15.200 --> 0:34:21.360
<v Speaker 2>trained bodyguards for white separatist Eugene terre Blanche and just

0:34:21.440 --> 0:34:24.840
<v Speaker 2>carrying a gun into the lab is very South African stuff,

0:34:24.840 --> 0:34:27.120
<v Speaker 2>and the fact that South Africans are being like nah,

0:34:27.400 --> 0:34:29.799
<v Speaker 2>but he did it in a weird way. He was

0:34:29.840 --> 0:34:32.319
<v Speaker 2>talking about being racist in a weird way to us

0:34:32.360 --> 0:34:39.359
<v Speaker 2>and apartheid South Africa. Wow, yeah, just the Bratton Again.

0:34:39.400 --> 0:34:42.040
<v Speaker 2>I don't see any evidence that he trained bodyguards for

0:34:42.120 --> 0:34:44.000
<v Speaker 2>this white separatist, but it gives you an idea of

0:34:44.040 --> 0:34:46.480
<v Speaker 2>like where's politics are right? If that's true, you know,

0:34:46.600 --> 0:34:50.680
<v Speaker 2>can't say for certain that that newspaper's reporting is accurate,

0:34:50.760 --> 0:34:54.319
<v Speaker 2>but that's what was reported. Hat Phil would later fill

0:34:54.360 --> 0:34:56.600
<v Speaker 2>his resume with claims that he'd also gotten a medical

0:34:56.640 --> 0:35:00.759
<v Speaker 2>degree in the UK, and in fact there are there's

0:35:00.840 --> 0:35:04.360
<v Speaker 2>at least some evidence that he pretended his degree was

0:35:04.400 --> 0:35:07.200
<v Speaker 2>from the UK as opposed to from you know, these

0:35:07.239 --> 0:35:09.840
<v Speaker 2>African college as he went to. He would claim to

0:35:09.840 --> 0:35:12.480
<v Speaker 2>have been a member of the Royal Society of Medicine.

0:35:12.880 --> 0:35:15.600
<v Speaker 2>Neither of these seem to be accurate, per the Observer quote.

0:35:15.960 --> 0:35:18.480
<v Speaker 2>One professional resume claimed he had a medical degree from

0:35:18.480 --> 0:35:21.440
<v Speaker 2>the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons, Edinburgh, a body

0:35:21.480 --> 0:35:24.480
<v Speaker 2>which doesn't exist. Another said his medical degree was gained

0:35:24.480 --> 0:35:26.680
<v Speaker 2>in Edinburgh at nineteen eighty four, when he in fact

0:35:26.760 --> 0:35:29.560
<v Speaker 2>qualified as a doctor that year in Zimbabwe. The Royal

0:35:29.600 --> 0:35:31.600
<v Speaker 2>Society of Medicine has no record of him and he

0:35:31.640 --> 0:35:34.320
<v Speaker 2>is not a fellow of the Society, as his resume claims.

0:35:34.920 --> 0:35:38.040
<v Speaker 1>That's like bold pre internet lying, right.

0:35:37.880 --> 0:35:40.359
<v Speaker 2>And you could so get away with this shit before.

0:35:40.400 --> 0:35:43.920
<v Speaker 2>That's what bums me out. I could be so many things.

0:35:44.120 --> 0:35:46.960
<v Speaker 2>I could be doing surgery today. I could be cutting

0:35:47.000 --> 0:35:49.759
<v Speaker 2>into a motherfucker and taking an oregon out today. If

0:35:49.800 --> 0:35:52.120
<v Speaker 2>it was the nineteen eighties, my god.

0:35:53.400 --> 0:35:55.360
<v Speaker 4>I don't think I wanted you to do that either.

0:35:56.200 --> 0:35:58.319
<v Speaker 2>I think I'd be great at it, but no one's

0:35:58.360 --> 0:36:00.239
<v Speaker 2>going to let me try. They're scared that I'd show

0:36:00.280 --> 0:36:03.759
<v Speaker 2>him up. It'd be better. Oh yeah, maybe he'll be

0:36:03.800 --> 0:36:05.600
<v Speaker 2>too good. Maybe I'm too good at surgery.

0:36:05.680 --> 0:36:07.600
<v Speaker 3>If you're the kind of guy who would just like

0:36:07.840 --> 0:36:11.040
<v Speaker 3>take off the and go to the congo like without

0:36:11.520 --> 0:36:13.960
<v Speaker 3>an invitation, you are also the kind of guy who

0:36:14.000 --> 0:36:16.880
<v Speaker 3>would like just blatantly lie on your.

0:36:16.960 --> 0:36:25.279
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely absolutely wild. Now hatfill is you know, he does

0:36:25.320 --> 0:36:29.160
<v Speaker 2>some stuff in England. He's at Oxford briefly he works

0:36:29.160 --> 0:36:33.040
<v Speaker 2>as like a cancered specialist in the Nuffield Department of

0:36:33.120 --> 0:36:38.080
<v Speaker 2>Pathology and Bacteriology in Oxford in nineteen ninety four. But

0:36:38.160 --> 0:36:40.680
<v Speaker 2>he also, I mean, he's at least accused of having

0:36:40.719 --> 0:36:45.279
<v Speaker 2>faked a reference again per the observers reporting, he faked

0:36:45.280 --> 0:36:48.239
<v Speaker 2>a reference quote from the distinguished Oxford professor James O.

0:36:48.400 --> 0:36:50.640
<v Speaker 2>D McGee to apply for his next job back in

0:36:50.640 --> 0:36:53.239
<v Speaker 2>the United States that he didn't have. And you know,

0:36:53.719 --> 0:36:56.440
<v Speaker 2>a little bit of resume fakery. Who amongst us hasn't

0:36:56.440 --> 0:36:59.120
<v Speaker 2>done that, although maybe not if you're trying to be

0:36:59.160 --> 0:37:02.520
<v Speaker 2>a doctor and he is a real doctor, would be clear.

0:37:02.560 --> 0:37:04.719
<v Speaker 2>But he does have a real MD. It's a PhD

0:37:04.840 --> 0:37:07.719
<v Speaker 2>he didn't get. And yeah, that's the last really big

0:37:07.800 --> 0:37:10.680
<v Speaker 2>question mark on his resume is that he would periodically

0:37:10.680 --> 0:37:13.320
<v Speaker 2>claim to have a PhD from Rhodes University in South

0:37:13.360 --> 0:37:16.400
<v Speaker 2>Africa in addition to his MD. And he makes this

0:37:16.480 --> 0:37:18.640
<v Speaker 2>claim after he returns to the US when he's trying

0:37:18.640 --> 0:37:22.680
<v Speaker 2>to get a federal research grant. However, back in Rhodes University,

0:37:22.719 --> 0:37:25.840
<v Speaker 2>his dissertation on treating leukemia had been denied by the

0:37:25.880 --> 0:37:28.680
<v Speaker 2>review committee. They decided his methodology was flawed and they

0:37:28.680 --> 0:37:30.919
<v Speaker 2>declined to give him a PhD in nineteen ninety five.

0:37:31.360 --> 0:37:33.840
<v Speaker 2>Now he will say that, like, when I applied for

0:37:33.880 --> 0:37:35.960
<v Speaker 2>this grant, basically I thought I was going to get

0:37:35.960 --> 0:37:38.240
<v Speaker 2>the PhD, so I wrote it down. It was before,

0:37:38.440 --> 0:37:41.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, they turned me down. I don't know. Maybe

0:37:41.360 --> 0:37:44.000
<v Speaker 2>it was the case of him just you know, thinking

0:37:44.040 --> 0:37:45.799
<v Speaker 2>he was going to pass and it was fine because

0:37:45.840 --> 0:37:48.960
<v Speaker 2>he'd done everything else. That said, it's pretty consistent with

0:37:49.000 --> 0:37:53.840
<v Speaker 2>the other I don't know, the tenuous relationship with the

0:37:53.880 --> 0:37:58.920
<v Speaker 2>truth that we've seen previously here. Right, So, yeah, he

0:37:59.320 --> 0:38:01.279
<v Speaker 2>spends the mid nineties, he goes back to the oost

0:38:01.320 --> 0:38:04.400
<v Speaker 2>for a bit. He does that fellowship at Oxford, and

0:38:04.400 --> 0:38:06.640
<v Speaker 2>the job at Oxford gets him a job studying not

0:38:06.719 --> 0:38:09.960
<v Speaker 2>just cancer but HIV and LYME disease for the National

0:38:10.040 --> 0:38:13.240
<v Speaker 2>Institutes of Health in the United States, and his interest

0:38:13.239 --> 0:38:15.200
<v Speaker 2>in infectious diseases starts to guide him.

0:38:15.239 --> 0:38:15.399
<v Speaker 3>Now.

0:38:15.520 --> 0:38:17.799
<v Speaker 2>In late nineteen ninety seven, he starts a two year

0:38:17.880 --> 0:38:22.840
<v Speaker 2>fellowship with USAMRID to study Ebola and other haemorrhagic fevers.

0:38:23.440 --> 0:38:30.000
<v Speaker 2>USAMRID is the acronyms and it's usamriid. USAMRID is the

0:38:30.040 --> 0:38:33.240
<v Speaker 2>acronym for the United States Army and Medical Research Institute

0:38:33.280 --> 0:38:37.080
<v Speaker 2>of Infectious Diseases. This is the top biodefense laboratory in

0:38:37.120 --> 0:38:40.080
<v Speaker 2>the country, with a mission to study both biological weapons

0:38:40.160 --> 0:38:42.400
<v Speaker 2>and diseases like a bola that are seen to have

0:38:42.440 --> 0:38:45.880
<v Speaker 2>a high potential for weaponization. Their primary client is the

0:38:46.000 --> 0:38:48.160
<v Speaker 2>US Army, and they do a lot of work in

0:38:48.239 --> 0:38:51.080
<v Speaker 2>Fort Detrick, which is where the US used to host

0:38:51.080 --> 0:38:54.040
<v Speaker 2>its Germ Weapons R INDEED Apartment until we stopped admitting

0:38:54.080 --> 0:38:57.200
<v Speaker 2>that we had a Germ weaponr in DED department in

0:38:57.280 --> 0:39:03.000
<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixty nine. Officially, we stopped making germ biological weapons

0:39:03.000 --> 0:39:06.520
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen sixty nine. Do I think we totally stopped.

0:39:07.400 --> 0:39:07.960
<v Speaker 3>I don't know.

0:39:08.440 --> 0:39:12.399
<v Speaker 2>I don't home I think we did, but officially we did.

0:39:14.480 --> 0:39:17.799
<v Speaker 2>Now Usamrid is an extremely serious organization and they are

0:39:17.800 --> 0:39:20.040
<v Speaker 2>doing some of the most dangerous work imaginable. Right Like,

0:39:20.080 --> 0:39:22.040
<v Speaker 2>this is a thing you would need in any country,

0:39:22.040 --> 0:39:25.799
<v Speaker 2>even if it was an ethical defense department. Right is

0:39:26.320 --> 0:39:28.720
<v Speaker 2>a branch of the government whose job is to figure

0:39:28.760 --> 0:39:34.600
<v Speaker 2>out what kind of diseases or illnesses maybe weaponized or invented,

0:39:35.040 --> 0:39:38.080
<v Speaker 2>and how would we fight against them? Right Like, that's

0:39:38.080 --> 0:39:40.360
<v Speaker 2>an important thing to do, you know, just the world

0:39:40.400 --> 0:39:43.040
<v Speaker 2>being what it is. In his book The Demon in

0:39:43.080 --> 0:39:46.000
<v Speaker 2>the Freezer, Richard Preston gives a useful description and by useful,

0:39:46.040 --> 0:39:49.319
<v Speaker 2>I mean terrifying description of you Samrid, a headquarters that

0:39:49.440 --> 0:39:52.040
<v Speaker 2>is just kind of chilling. The main building of you

0:39:52.120 --> 0:39:54.919
<v Speaker 2>Samrid is a dun colored two story monolith that looks

0:39:54.960 --> 0:39:57.520
<v Speaker 2>like a warehouse that is virtually no windows and tubular

0:39:57.600 --> 0:40:00.840
<v Speaker 2>chimneys sprout from its roof. The building cover seven acres

0:40:00.880 --> 0:40:03.719
<v Speaker 2>of ground. There are biocontainment suites near the center of

0:40:03.760 --> 0:40:06.399
<v Speaker 2>the building, groups of laboratory rooms that are sealed off

0:40:06.400 --> 0:40:09.120
<v Speaker 2>and kept under negative air pressure. So that nothing contagious

0:40:09.120 --> 0:40:12.000
<v Speaker 2>will leak out. The suites are classified at differing levels

0:40:12.040 --> 0:40:15.279
<v Speaker 2>of biosecurity, from biosafety level two to level three, and

0:40:15.320 --> 0:40:17.960
<v Speaker 2>finally to level four, which is the highest and where

0:40:18.000 --> 0:40:22.160
<v Speaker 2>scientists wearing biosafety spacesuits work with hot agents lethal in

0:40:22.280 --> 0:40:26.520
<v Speaker 2>curable viruses. A bioprotective spacesuit is a pressurized plastic suit

0:40:26.520 --> 0:40:29.080
<v Speaker 2>that covers the entire body. It is a soft plastic

0:40:29.120 --> 0:40:31.160
<v Speaker 2>head bubble with a clear face plate, and it is

0:40:31.200 --> 0:40:33.279
<v Speaker 2>fed by sterile air coming through a hose and an

0:40:33.320 --> 0:40:36.400
<v Speaker 2>air regulator. The chimneys of the buildings are always exhausting,

0:40:36.440 --> 0:40:39.920
<v Speaker 2>superfiltered and superheated sterilized air, which is drawn out of

0:40:39.920 --> 0:40:44.000
<v Speaker 2>the biocontainment zones. Usamrid was now surrounded by concrete barriers

0:40:44.000 --> 0:40:46.560
<v Speaker 2>to prevent a truck bomber cracking open a biosafety level

0:40:46.600 --> 0:40:49.520
<v Speaker 2>four sweet and releasing a hot agent into the air. So,

0:40:49.680 --> 0:40:51.880
<v Speaker 2>just going through the list of security that gives you

0:40:51.920 --> 0:40:55.479
<v Speaker 2>an idea of how deadly the shit in here is. Right, Okay,

0:40:57.000 --> 0:40:58.560
<v Speaker 2>these are your planet killers?

0:40:58.800 --> 0:41:00.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, so we're.

0:41:00.719 --> 0:41:03.520
<v Speaker 5>In the UK and these guys are actually right, and

0:41:03.560 --> 0:41:04.719
<v Speaker 5>we're and these guys.

0:41:04.480 --> 0:41:06.920
<v Speaker 2>Are actually do us he's moved to the US. Oh

0:41:06.920 --> 0:41:09.279
<v Speaker 2>we're in the Usamrid is the is a US, like

0:41:09.360 --> 0:41:13.200
<v Speaker 2>it's it's the US biowar like biological weapons research.

0:41:13.080 --> 0:41:15.520
<v Speaker 5>Until we said we shut it down and these guys

0:41:15.560 --> 0:41:17.160
<v Speaker 5>are actually doing good stuff.

0:41:17.640 --> 0:41:20.000
<v Speaker 2>No, we shut down the R and D department at

0:41:20.000 --> 0:41:22.560
<v Speaker 2>Fort Dietrich, Right, So you Samrid is based out of

0:41:22.560 --> 0:41:25.279
<v Speaker 2>Fort Dietrich too. Fort Dietrich is where all of our

0:41:25.360 --> 0:41:28.320
<v Speaker 2>scary chemical and biological weapons stuff is. So we stopped

0:41:28.440 --> 0:41:33.640
<v Speaker 2>making new weapons in sixty nine, but we still research

0:41:34.040 --> 0:41:37.560
<v Speaker 2>what kind of weapons people might make and research like

0:41:37.640 --> 0:41:40.239
<v Speaker 2>ways to defend them. Right, That's what you Samrid is

0:41:40.280 --> 0:41:43.319
<v Speaker 2>doing is they are trying to know and it's not

0:41:43.400 --> 0:41:46.000
<v Speaker 2>just weapons, but like you know, when you have a

0:41:46.000 --> 0:41:49.799
<v Speaker 2>bowl outbreak in Africa, right you Samrid starts, you know,

0:41:50.000 --> 0:41:52.400
<v Speaker 2>you're going to increase the amount of people who are

0:41:52.400 --> 0:41:54.279
<v Speaker 2>working on Okay, Like, well, if it spreads over here,

0:41:54.320 --> 0:41:55.840
<v Speaker 2>if it gets here, if we have an outbreak, what

0:41:55.960 --> 0:41:57.560
<v Speaker 2>might that look like? How would we treat it?

0:41:57.719 --> 0:41:57.879
<v Speaker 3>Right?

0:41:58.160 --> 0:42:00.839
<v Speaker 2>What if someone weaponized a bola? Is that possible? Let's

0:42:00.840 --> 0:42:02.960
<v Speaker 2>look into whether or not you could weaponize it. What

0:42:02.960 --> 0:42:05.400
<v Speaker 2>would the defense against that be? Right, they're doing stuff

0:42:05.440 --> 0:42:08.600
<v Speaker 2>like that. You know, if somebody started to wanted to

0:42:08.600 --> 0:42:12.359
<v Speaker 2>carry out an anthrax attack, how theoretically would an anthrax attack? Look,

0:42:13.080 --> 0:42:15.879
<v Speaker 2>how deadly would it be? What would be the procedures

0:42:15.880 --> 0:42:17.000
<v Speaker 2>we need to establish?

0:42:17.120 --> 0:42:17.279
<v Speaker 3>You know?

0:42:17.320 --> 0:42:18.759
<v Speaker 2>What do we need to have ready so that if

0:42:18.760 --> 0:42:21.719
<v Speaker 2>that happens at a moment's notice, we can get guys

0:42:21.800 --> 0:42:24.640
<v Speaker 2>into an area in order to deal with an anthrax outbreak? Right,

0:42:24.640 --> 0:42:26.919
<v Speaker 2>that's the kind of shit you stamrit's trying to figure out.

0:42:27.280 --> 0:42:29.920
<v Speaker 5>I totally get that this is important and necessary, but

0:42:29.960 --> 0:42:30.839
<v Speaker 5>it does seem like.

0:42:30.800 --> 0:42:33.800
<v Speaker 1>The line of like, are you doing more harm than good?

0:42:34.120 --> 0:42:36.279
<v Speaker 1>Gets a little bit dicey when you talk about this.

0:42:37.000 --> 0:42:38.799
<v Speaker 2>And it's also the line between like, well, what counts

0:42:38.840 --> 0:42:41.919
<v Speaker 2>as R and D for new new Yes? Yeah, shit

0:42:42.239 --> 0:42:44.080
<v Speaker 2>like as opposed to R and D on how to

0:42:44.200 --> 0:42:47.120
<v Speaker 2>fight it? Yeah, And it's there's always a Again, the

0:42:47.440 --> 0:42:49.880
<v Speaker 2>degree of security in this facility is proof of the

0:42:49.960 --> 0:42:52.480
<v Speaker 2>danger because you have had like in Russia, there was

0:42:52.520 --> 0:42:56.800
<v Speaker 2>a horrible anthrax outbreak because one of like a Russian

0:42:56.840 --> 0:43:00.560
<v Speaker 2>equivalent to this facility had a fucking breach and a

0:43:00.600 --> 0:43:04.000
<v Speaker 2>bunch of people got sick. Right, Like, these are scary

0:43:04.280 --> 0:43:08.000
<v Speaker 2>places and the consequences of things going wrong in a

0:43:08.040 --> 0:43:10.879
<v Speaker 2>place like Fort Dietrich and the USAMRIID Facility, there is

0:43:11.440 --> 0:43:16.000
<v Speaker 2>very high Stephen King's the stand for like focuses on.

0:43:16.320 --> 0:43:18.080
<v Speaker 2>I think it's basically a base that's meant to stand

0:43:18.080 --> 0:43:20.239
<v Speaker 2>in for Fort Ditrich. I forget exactly what it's called

0:43:20.239 --> 0:43:22.399
<v Speaker 2>on that, but that's that's how the virus that kills

0:43:22.400 --> 0:43:24.919
<v Speaker 2>the whole world gets out. Is it's something where that's

0:43:24.960 --> 0:43:28.160
<v Speaker 2>part of like a research and there's a breach and

0:43:28.239 --> 0:43:32.000
<v Speaker 2>it gets out and it kills everybody. And you know,

0:43:32.120 --> 0:43:34.080
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if any of the diseases that they

0:43:34.080 --> 0:43:36.279
<v Speaker 2>have access to could wipe out the whole planet, but

0:43:36.320 --> 0:43:38.759
<v Speaker 2>they could kill a shitload of people. Like they have

0:43:38.800 --> 0:43:42.239
<v Speaker 2>a lot of scary stuff at the USAMRIID Facility, and

0:43:42.280 --> 0:43:44.759
<v Speaker 2>so if you are working there, you are working with

0:43:44.920 --> 0:43:48.240
<v Speaker 2>very scary stuff. Steve Hatfill is doing very serious work

0:43:48.280 --> 0:43:51.120
<v Speaker 2>at this point, right and he is qualified to do it,

0:43:51.480 --> 0:43:54.600
<v Speaker 2>not as qualified as his resumes and CV makeums out,

0:43:54.600 --> 0:43:56.880
<v Speaker 2>but he does have the MD. He did do like

0:43:57.080 --> 0:43:59.200
<v Speaker 2>he went to Oxford and he did that year there,

0:43:59.239 --> 0:44:02.799
<v Speaker 2>Like he's got qualifications. He just I think he just

0:44:02.880 --> 0:44:04.840
<v Speaker 2>can't help judge it up a little bit. He's not

0:44:04.880 --> 0:44:07.520
<v Speaker 2>as cool as he wants to be, that's my interpretation.

0:44:09.520 --> 0:44:11.400
<v Speaker 2>So he's one of his first jobs there is he's

0:44:11.400 --> 0:44:14.239
<v Speaker 2>carrying out experiments on the cock monkeys, infecting them with

0:44:14.320 --> 0:44:18.719
<v Speaker 2>deadly viruses and watching them die. This fucks them up

0:44:18.760 --> 0:44:21.480
<v Speaker 2>to some extent. He'd sneak the animals Reese's pieces out

0:44:21.520 --> 0:44:24.000
<v Speaker 2>of sheer guilt to try to like, maybe if I

0:44:24.040 --> 0:44:26.320
<v Speaker 2>give him candy, I don't feel as bad about killing

0:44:26.360 --> 0:44:30.239
<v Speaker 2>these monkeys. It doesn't seem like a fun job to be.

0:44:30.760 --> 0:44:33.120
<v Speaker 2>Over the next couple of years, Hatfilm makes himself into

0:44:33.120 --> 0:44:36.359
<v Speaker 2>one of the nation's top experts on germ warfare. He's

0:44:36.360 --> 0:44:39.680
<v Speaker 2>a virus guy. He's not into anthrax. Anthrax is a bacteria,

0:44:39.760 --> 0:44:42.560
<v Speaker 2>so he doesn't really work. He never works directly with anthrax,

0:44:42.600 --> 0:44:44.880
<v Speaker 2>although he is aware of it. He studies it somewhat,

0:44:44.880 --> 0:44:47.960
<v Speaker 2>but he's more into the viruses. He's very charismatic and

0:44:48.000 --> 0:44:50.719
<v Speaker 2>he's good at teaching, so he ston starts getting contracts

0:44:50.719 --> 0:44:54.920
<v Speaker 2>to instruct special forces teams on defensive techniques. Right, So,

0:44:54.920 --> 0:44:57.640
<v Speaker 2>in addition to this job with you, Samred, he's getting

0:44:57.680 --> 0:45:00.560
<v Speaker 2>like he's giving seminars, he's giving speech and he's also

0:45:00.600 --> 0:45:04.239
<v Speaker 2>conducting training classes on like, Okay, if you encounter a

0:45:04.320 --> 0:45:08.920
<v Speaker 2>biological weapons factory in the field, right, here's what you

0:45:08.960 --> 0:45:10.640
<v Speaker 2>would do. Here's what the things to look out for

0:45:10.719 --> 0:45:13.040
<v Speaker 2>that could be dangerous. Here's how to make the scene safe.

0:45:14.040 --> 0:45:16.560
<v Speaker 2>Here are the different prophylactics you could use in different

0:45:16.640 --> 0:45:18.440
<v Speaker 2>kind of situations. Like he's training them on that kind

0:45:18.480 --> 0:45:22.440
<v Speaker 2>of stuff, right, And this is all you know. Right

0:45:22.480 --> 0:45:25.239
<v Speaker 2>around the late nineties is like the millenniums coming to

0:45:25.280 --> 0:45:28.400
<v Speaker 2>an end. There's a couple of hoax anthrax attacks in

0:45:28.400 --> 0:45:31.840
<v Speaker 2>the US where letters that are filled with white powder

0:45:31.960 --> 0:45:34.840
<v Speaker 2>that isn't anthrax, but the letter claims that they're anthrax,

0:45:34.880 --> 0:45:38.400
<v Speaker 2>are sent to varying places, right, And so there's panics

0:45:38.440 --> 0:45:41.719
<v Speaker 2>in the media in the public over anthrax attacks. And

0:45:41.760 --> 0:45:44.719
<v Speaker 2>this corresponds to a growing public and official awareness that

0:45:44.760 --> 0:45:48.759
<v Speaker 2>bioterrorism is a real threat. And hat Phil he kind

0:45:48.760 --> 0:45:50.920
<v Speaker 2>of picks his moment well, right as Americans are starting

0:45:50.920 --> 0:45:54.600
<v Speaker 2>to freak out about bioterrorism, he cashes in on it.

0:45:54.640 --> 0:45:57.319
<v Speaker 2>And I don't mean that in an ethical sense, just

0:45:57.360 --> 0:45:59.360
<v Speaker 2>in a he makes a good career move. He starts

0:45:59.719 --> 0:46:03.160
<v Speaker 2>give lectures at conventions and talking to reporters about America's

0:46:03.239 --> 0:46:06.839
<v Speaker 2>unreadiness to face a weaponized pathogen. In nineteen ninety eight,

0:46:06.880 --> 0:46:10.160
<v Speaker 2>he's interviewed by Insight magazine and he makes the in

0:46:10.200 --> 0:46:13.279
<v Speaker 2>retrospect poor choice to let them photograph him dressed in

0:46:13.600 --> 0:46:17.160
<v Speaker 2>biohazard gear cooking up diseases in a kitchen. Right.

0:46:18.560 --> 0:46:19.520
<v Speaker 1>I found that photo.

0:46:20.160 --> 0:46:22.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, those photos are going to be found when he's

0:46:22.320 --> 0:46:24.600
<v Speaker 2>accused of doing the anthrax attacks. That they will not

0:46:24.680 --> 0:46:28.440
<v Speaker 2>make him look good. He warned the interviewer in that

0:46:28.560 --> 0:46:31.440
<v Speaker 2>article that these fake anthrax attacks could quote be a

0:46:31.480 --> 0:46:36.000
<v Speaker 2>form of testing for a future terrorist attack. Now. I

0:46:36.000 --> 0:46:39.120
<v Speaker 2>haven't run into any evidence that Hatfield's colleagues questioned his

0:46:39.200 --> 0:46:42.279
<v Speaker 2>expertise or skill at his job during this period, but

0:46:42.360 --> 0:46:44.760
<v Speaker 2>some of them did question his judgment in other areas,

0:46:44.920 --> 0:46:47.560
<v Speaker 2>per The Washington Post, At a seminar in New York,

0:46:47.600 --> 0:46:51.160
<v Speaker 2>he demonstrated one of his favorite bioterrorism scenarios, a terrorist

0:46:51.239 --> 0:46:53.920
<v Speaker 2>using a wheelchair to sneak past White House security with

0:46:53.960 --> 0:46:57.320
<v Speaker 2>a biological agent, says Jerome Hower, the New York City's

0:46:57.360 --> 0:47:01.120
<v Speaker 2>Emergency Preparedness director. Hower was a pall after the presentation.

0:47:01.200 --> 0:47:02.960
<v Speaker 2>He says, he called hat phil aside and told him

0:47:02.960 --> 0:47:05.080
<v Speaker 2>he had gone too far. It was too detailed, too

0:47:05.120 --> 0:47:08.160
<v Speaker 2>specific to go into a public forum. Hatfhil listened, Hall

0:47:08.320 --> 0:47:10.600
<v Speaker 2>Power said, but he shrugged it off. And so he's

0:47:10.640 --> 0:47:12.960
<v Speaker 2>like he's like laying out. He's not just saying, oh,

0:47:13.000 --> 0:47:15.120
<v Speaker 2>it'd be cool, like you could maybe do this. He's

0:47:15.120 --> 0:47:17.080
<v Speaker 2>like walking through, here are all the different levels of

0:47:17.120 --> 0:47:19.080
<v Speaker 2>security in the White House, and here's how you would

0:47:19.120 --> 0:47:22.560
<v Speaker 2>get past each one with a weaponized pathogen and a wheelchair.

0:47:22.760 --> 0:47:25.719
<v Speaker 2>Like he's really making a very easy to follow guide

0:47:25.800 --> 0:47:27.360
<v Speaker 2>for poisoning the White House.

0:47:27.520 --> 0:47:28.600
<v Speaker 1>Here's the bootprint.

0:47:29.000 --> 0:47:33.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and that is his job to an extent. But

0:47:33.400 --> 0:47:34.719
<v Speaker 2>maybe you don't have to do that at like a

0:47:34.719 --> 0:47:37.799
<v Speaker 2>public presentation. That might not be Yeah, that might not

0:47:37.880 --> 0:47:41.799
<v Speaker 2>be the most most responsible thing to do. You know,

0:47:41.800 --> 0:47:45.759
<v Speaker 2>who would never poison anyone with a wheelchair filled with anthrax?

0:47:46.440 --> 0:47:49.759
<v Speaker 3>The sponsors those duties.

0:47:50.280 --> 0:47:55.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they don't even have access to anthrax. Weaponized bola absolutely,

0:47:55.800 --> 0:47:58.960
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god. Thew Apron guys actually have enough weaponized

0:47:58.960 --> 0:48:01.279
<v Speaker 2>a bowla to wipe out the whole planet. But that's

0:48:01.400 --> 0:48:08.080
<v Speaker 2>just a part of their their Salisbury Steak Friday package. Hmm. Yeah,

0:48:08.160 --> 0:48:17.200
<v Speaker 2>the taste of a bola and we're back. I don't

0:48:17.200 --> 0:48:20.120
<v Speaker 2>think we're going to get any more Blue Apron money, Sophie.

0:48:20.600 --> 0:48:22.560
<v Speaker 4>That's okay, that's okay.

0:48:22.600 --> 0:48:24.080
<v Speaker 2>I don't think they ever gave us any money. It

0:48:24.200 --> 0:48:28.279
<v Speaker 2>was that other company that I forget Hello Fresh, Hello Fresh. Yeah,

0:48:28.280 --> 0:48:30.399
<v Speaker 2>they don't have any abola.

0:48:31.200 --> 0:48:33.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, bowl of free, dinner.

0:48:32.880 --> 0:48:36.640
<v Speaker 2>Bowl of free. That's right, Hello Fresh, say goodbye to

0:48:36.680 --> 0:48:41.040
<v Speaker 2>a Bolao. So a lot of Hatfill's success within the

0:48:41.040 --> 0:48:44.200
<v Speaker 2>field of bioterrorism warfare research came down to the fact

0:48:44.200 --> 0:48:47.000
<v Speaker 2>that he picked a good mentor he got very lucky

0:48:47.239 --> 0:48:49.240
<v Speaker 2>that he like he hits it off with this guy

0:48:49.280 --> 0:48:51.480
<v Speaker 2>who had worked at Usamred. He'd been one of the

0:48:51.480 --> 0:48:54.759
<v Speaker 2>scientists back in like the fifties who'd help create our

0:48:54.880 --> 0:48:58.560
<v Speaker 2>US bioweapons arsenal back when we still officially had one,

0:48:59.120 --> 0:49:01.120
<v Speaker 2>and then he retired from you Stamford and became a

0:49:01.120 --> 0:49:05.759
<v Speaker 2>bio warfare consultant. He has five secret patents on weaponized anthrax,

0:49:05.880 --> 0:49:09.560
<v Speaker 2>Bill Patrick. So Bill is like the top guy and

0:49:09.600 --> 0:49:14.520
<v Speaker 2>the terrifying murder weapons business. Right, how do you get

0:49:15.520 --> 0:49:18.279
<v Speaker 2>it's a patent for something that's like you did it,

0:49:18.480 --> 0:49:21.279
<v Speaker 2>and you you get the patent on it in case

0:49:21.280 --> 0:49:23.680
<v Speaker 2>anyone ever like makes it and makes money off it.

0:49:23.719 --> 0:49:26.960
<v Speaker 2>But you can't publish the patent because then people would

0:49:27.040 --> 0:49:29.960
<v Speaker 2>know how to weaponize anthrax, and we don't want that.

0:49:30.320 --> 0:49:32.400
<v Speaker 2>We don't people just like looking up the patent for

0:49:32.480 --> 0:49:36.759
<v Speaker 2>weaponized anthrax and following that, right, So maybe you want

0:49:36.760 --> 0:49:39.040
<v Speaker 2>to keep that certain things the secret. Yeah, yeah, probably

0:49:39.120 --> 0:49:42.480
<v Speaker 2>keep that sealed. In this case, I am in alignment

0:49:42.520 --> 0:49:45.520
<v Speaker 2>with the government policy. Yeah, I shouldn't have the weaponized

0:49:45.520 --> 0:49:51.240
<v Speaker 2>anthrax plans online. Also, this brings me to a special

0:49:51.280 --> 0:49:55.920
<v Speaker 2>ad from our sponsor, Audible and their new book, how

0:49:55.960 --> 0:49:59.000
<v Speaker 2>to Weaponize Anthrax and five Easy Steps. You don't even

0:49:59.000 --> 0:50:00.600
<v Speaker 2>have to read it. You can just listen to it

0:50:00.640 --> 0:50:02.640
<v Speaker 2>and you could be weaponizing anthrax and.

0:50:02.680 --> 0:50:05.280
<v Speaker 1>Under forty eight listen to on Tyranny or something.

0:50:05.640 --> 0:50:10.439
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it was, Yeah, maybe listen to the anthrax book

0:50:10.440 --> 0:50:11.000
<v Speaker 2>when you're trying.

0:50:10.880 --> 0:50:12.760
<v Speaker 4>To you're disappointing me today.

0:50:14.040 --> 0:50:17.040
<v Speaker 2>Well, I won't be disappointing you when I weaponized some

0:50:17.080 --> 0:50:20.880
<v Speaker 2>anthrax Selvie. Then I'll have anthrax. Nope, I probably shouldn't

0:50:20.880 --> 0:50:24.840
<v Speaker 2>talk about that online. So Patrick wants a protege. You

0:50:24.880 --> 0:50:27.920
<v Speaker 2>know this guy, he's in his seventies now, he's getting older,

0:50:28.040 --> 0:50:30.520
<v Speaker 2>and he wants someone to follow in his footsteps, and

0:50:30.680 --> 0:50:33.759
<v Speaker 2>he meets hat Phil and considers him just gung ho

0:50:33.960 --> 0:50:37.040
<v Speaker 2>enough for the job, and per the Washington Post quote,

0:50:37.239 --> 0:50:39.759
<v Speaker 2>the two struck up a friendship like father and son,

0:50:39.840 --> 0:50:42.480
<v Speaker 2>says one bio terror expert who watched the ties develop.

0:50:42.760 --> 0:50:45.160
<v Speaker 2>When Patrick's schedule was too full to attend a program

0:50:45.239 --> 0:50:47.719
<v Speaker 2>or contribute to his study, he recommended Hatfill, who often

0:50:47.719 --> 0:50:50.840
<v Speaker 2>did the work for free. Hatfil drove Patrick to consulting

0:50:50.920 --> 0:50:53.440
<v Speaker 2>jobs at sai C and traveled with him to professional

0:50:53.440 --> 0:50:57.400
<v Speaker 2>conferences and classified briefings on the weaponization process. Hatfill was

0:50:57.400 --> 0:50:59.880
<v Speaker 2>often a dinner guest at Patrick's home, where Patrick says

0:51:00.080 --> 0:51:02.799
<v Speaker 2>he keeps the basic lab equipment needed to make bacteria

0:51:02.840 --> 0:51:06.480
<v Speaker 2>into a finely ground powder. Normal thing to keep in

0:51:06.520 --> 0:51:11.080
<v Speaker 2>your house. Oh, no, normal thing to keep in your house, Patrick,

0:51:13.640 --> 0:51:16.439
<v Speaker 2>I too, keep that noe. Okay. In nineteen ninety nine,

0:51:16.480 --> 0:51:19.480
<v Speaker 2>Patrick helps Hatfield get a job at these Science Applications

0:51:19.560 --> 0:51:23.640
<v Speaker 2>International Corporation or SAIIC. This is a private contract or.

0:51:23.640 --> 0:51:25.799
<v Speaker 2>They do a bunch of shit. One of the things

0:51:25.840 --> 0:51:28.160
<v Speaker 2>they do is they help the DoD as consultants with

0:51:28.200 --> 0:51:31.880
<v Speaker 2>bioweapons defense. So by this point Steve is a recognized expert,

0:51:31.920 --> 0:51:34.040
<v Speaker 2>and he's hit in just a couple of years, he's

0:51:34.040 --> 0:51:36.400
<v Speaker 2>gotten to the point anyone in a field like this

0:51:36.480 --> 0:51:39.880
<v Speaker 2>wants to where you can. He's still employed at you, Samred,

0:51:39.880 --> 0:51:42.920
<v Speaker 2>but you can start taking private sector money as a

0:51:42.960 --> 0:51:48.279
<v Speaker 2>consultant because that's where the real cash is. Baby, and

0:51:48.320 --> 0:51:51.160
<v Speaker 2>he is an expert, but he often does still make

0:51:51.239 --> 0:51:54.080
<v Speaker 2>claims about his knowledge that go beyond at least what

0:51:54.120 --> 0:51:57.600
<v Speaker 2>his official resume should have made possible. For example, he

0:51:57.680 --> 0:52:00.719
<v Speaker 2>claimed to have knowledge of both wet and dry biological

0:52:00.760 --> 0:52:04.960
<v Speaker 2>agents and how to produce them. The number of Americans

0:52:05.040 --> 0:52:07.799
<v Speaker 2>who can do who can actually claim that do have

0:52:07.840 --> 0:52:10.359
<v Speaker 2>extensive knowledge of wet and dry biological agents and how

0:52:10.360 --> 0:52:12.360
<v Speaker 2>to produce them was at this point maybe fifty to

0:52:12.400 --> 0:52:14.919
<v Speaker 2>one hundred people. Right, this is the number of people

0:52:14.960 --> 0:52:17.840
<v Speaker 2>who could take anthrax and turn it into a dry,

0:52:18.160 --> 0:52:22.120
<v Speaker 2>powdered biological agent. Right, maybe one hundred people tops in

0:52:22.160 --> 0:52:23.480
<v Speaker 2>the whole country could have done that.

0:52:23.760 --> 0:52:26.960
<v Speaker 1>Right, And we're saying he's not good enough, but he's he's.

0:52:26.840 --> 0:52:30.000
<v Speaker 2>Like, but he does not have he doesn't have the

0:52:30.200 --> 0:52:32.080
<v Speaker 2>professional background to have done that.

0:52:32.320 --> 0:52:34.440
<v Speaker 1>He's like, Patrick, shit showed me over.

0:52:34.320 --> 0:52:36.640
<v Speaker 2>Dinner, Right, Well, that's kind of that's kind of the

0:52:36.680 --> 0:52:38.960
<v Speaker 2>situation where when when he'll make claims like this, his

0:52:39.040 --> 0:52:41.399
<v Speaker 2>colleagues will be like, well, Patrick probably showed him right,

0:52:41.440 --> 0:52:43.600
<v Speaker 2>like because they are close and Patrick knows how to

0:52:43.600 --> 0:52:45.719
<v Speaker 2>do it, and maybe he did know how to do

0:52:45.760 --> 0:52:47.600
<v Speaker 2>it because of Patrick. I'm not I'm not saying he's

0:52:47.680 --> 0:52:50.520
<v Speaker 2>lying here. I'm just saying that like his now, he's

0:52:50.560 --> 0:52:52.480
<v Speaker 2>only been doing the job a couple of years, he

0:52:52.640 --> 0:52:55.320
<v Speaker 2>shouldn't be at that level. But because of his connection

0:52:55.360 --> 0:52:57.879
<v Speaker 2>to Patrick, a lot of stuff is possible that might

0:52:57.920 --> 0:53:01.239
<v Speaker 2>not otherwise be right. And it's the kind of thing

0:53:01.280 --> 0:53:05.160
<v Speaker 2>where maybe he was exaggerating a bed again to get jobs.

0:53:05.560 --> 0:53:07.200
<v Speaker 2>If so, this is going to bite him in the ass,

0:53:07.239 --> 0:53:09.960
<v Speaker 2>because come two thousand and one, when there's an anthrax attack,

0:53:10.320 --> 0:53:12.080
<v Speaker 2>you don't want to be one of the fifty to

0:53:12.080 --> 0:53:14.640
<v Speaker 2>one hundred Americans who could credibly make the claim to

0:53:14.719 --> 0:53:17.759
<v Speaker 2>know I don't weaponize anthrax. Right. That becomes less of

0:53:17.800 --> 0:53:22.719
<v Speaker 2>a positive thing once someone's done it. So funny, Yeah,

0:53:22.960 --> 0:53:25.279
<v Speaker 2>In two thousand and one, Steven applied for a top

0:53:25.280 --> 0:53:27.840
<v Speaker 2>secret security clearance so that he could work at the CIA.

0:53:28.120 --> 0:53:30.400
<v Speaker 2>He had to take a polygraph test too, and that

0:53:30.560 --> 0:53:34.319
<v Speaker 2>apparently did not go, well, we don't know why. It's

0:53:34.360 --> 0:53:36.759
<v Speaker 2>the CIA. They don't just tell you stuff like that.

0:53:37.239 --> 0:53:38.880
<v Speaker 2>It may have been that they uncovered some of the

0:53:38.920 --> 0:53:42.279
<v Speaker 2>same discrepancies that journalists latched onto in his background. Maybe

0:53:42.280 --> 0:53:44.920
<v Speaker 2>it's just that the CIA looked into him and they

0:53:44.920 --> 0:53:48.040
<v Speaker 2>found out, Oh, he's fibbed about a bunch of stuff,

0:53:48.120 --> 0:53:50.240
<v Speaker 2>and that just doesn't work for us. We're the CIA.

0:53:50.480 --> 0:53:53.200
<v Speaker 2>You know, you lie about certain things that the CIA,

0:53:53.280 --> 0:53:56.880
<v Speaker 2>but not that, right, we don't really know what happened.

0:53:56.880 --> 0:53:59.040
<v Speaker 2>But they deny him, they turn him down, they won't

0:53:59.080 --> 0:54:01.439
<v Speaker 2>give him a top secrets security clearance, and in fact

0:54:01.480 --> 0:54:04.960
<v Speaker 2>they're denial. They don't just say no, they say no

0:54:05.400 --> 0:54:07.839
<v Speaker 2>and a bunch of other really mean shit. And it's

0:54:07.880 --> 0:54:09.960
<v Speaker 2>such a serious denial that like this could fuck up

0:54:09.960 --> 0:54:14.120
<v Speaker 2>his whole career because he's still working with sensitive information, right,

0:54:15.320 --> 0:54:19.320
<v Speaker 2>and it can. They say, basically, this guy can't be trusted,

0:54:19.360 --> 0:54:21.560
<v Speaker 2>He can't be trusted with a top secret clearance, and

0:54:21.600 --> 0:54:24.319
<v Speaker 2>maybe he shouldn't even have a security clearance at all.

0:54:24.680 --> 0:54:28.040
<v Speaker 2>And in fact, soon after because he appeals the CIA's

0:54:28.040 --> 0:54:30.920
<v Speaker 2>decision and they turn him down again, and right after that,

0:54:31.080 --> 0:54:34.920
<v Speaker 2>the Department of Defense suspends his security clearance. So whatever

0:54:35.000 --> 0:54:38.200
<v Speaker 2>the CIA found, whether it's that they just found out

0:54:38.239 --> 0:54:41.360
<v Speaker 2>that he had exaggerated or in there if they decided

0:54:41.400 --> 0:54:44.640
<v Speaker 2>he had lied about his background, maybe that's why they

0:54:44.680 --> 0:54:46.920
<v Speaker 2>did it. Maybe there's something else we don't know that

0:54:46.960 --> 0:54:49.319
<v Speaker 2>they find. But whatever it is they find, they are like,

0:54:49.840 --> 0:54:52.799
<v Speaker 2>not only can this guy not work with us, but

0:54:52.920 --> 0:54:55.960
<v Speaker 2>the DoD shouldn't be giving him any kind of security clearance.

0:54:56.520 --> 0:54:59.360
<v Speaker 2>And this endangers his job at SAICE, it endangers the

0:54:59.440 --> 0:55:02.680
<v Speaker 2>job at his work with Usambord, and dangerous his whole career. Right,

0:55:03.200 --> 0:55:07.040
<v Speaker 2>And this is all happening in two thousand and one, right,

0:55:07.200 --> 0:55:09.839
<v Speaker 2>right in the run up to nine to eleven. So

0:55:09.880 --> 0:55:12.239
<v Speaker 2>one of the last projects that he would start at

0:55:12.320 --> 0:55:15.280
<v Speaker 2>SAIIC before nine to eleven was an attempt to design

0:55:15.360 --> 0:55:20.319
<v Speaker 2>a fake mobile biowarfare production laboratory. Now this is one

0:55:20.320 --> 0:55:24.359
<v Speaker 2>of those things where so nine eleven hasn't happened yet.

0:55:24.400 --> 0:55:27.240
<v Speaker 2>But George W. Bush's president, right, and George W. Bush's

0:55:27.360 --> 0:55:31.840
<v Speaker 2>dad invaded Iraq and didn't go all the way. And

0:55:31.880 --> 0:55:33.719
<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of argument to George W. Bush, was

0:55:33.719 --> 0:55:35.759
<v Speaker 2>he always going to invade Iraq? Would you've tried to

0:55:35.800 --> 0:55:38.480
<v Speaker 2>do it? If nine to eleven hasn't happened. Well, this

0:55:38.520 --> 0:55:40.160
<v Speaker 2>is kind of a little this is like a little

0:55:40.200 --> 0:55:42.439
<v Speaker 2>bead in the he always wanted to do that thing,

0:55:42.560 --> 0:55:46.720
<v Speaker 2>because before nine eleven's happened, they're starting to train soldiers

0:55:46.760 --> 0:55:49.120
<v Speaker 2>with the expectation that we will have troops in the

0:55:49.160 --> 0:55:52.400
<v Speaker 2>Middle East again in a country where the leader is

0:55:52.400 --> 0:55:57.359
<v Speaker 2>suspected of having chemical and biological weapons of mass destruction Iraq, Right,

0:55:57.840 --> 0:55:59.920
<v Speaker 2>And so the military is like, we need someone to

0:56:00.040 --> 0:56:03.800
<v Speaker 2>build a fake mobile bioweapons lab that we can train

0:56:04.000 --> 0:56:06.239
<v Speaker 2>troops on so that they can see what one would

0:56:06.239 --> 0:56:08.640
<v Speaker 2>look like and know how to recognize it and know

0:56:08.920 --> 0:56:11.960
<v Speaker 2>what to do when they find one. Because definitely Saddam

0:56:12.040 --> 0:56:15.120
<v Speaker 2>has a bunch of mobile bioweapons labs for sure. Right,

0:56:15.440 --> 0:56:19.080
<v Speaker 2>He's for sure got the same kind of bioweapons capability

0:56:19.120 --> 0:56:21.280
<v Speaker 2>that we do. We just haven't found it yet.

0:56:21.440 --> 0:56:21.640
<v Speaker 3>Right.

0:56:22.120 --> 0:56:24.160
<v Speaker 2>And there's a dark humor in the fact that the

0:56:24.239 --> 0:56:28.040
<v Speaker 2>US government pays Steve Hatwell to design a mobile WMD

0:56:28.200 --> 0:56:32.719
<v Speaker 2>production facility that Saddam Hussein did not have in order

0:56:32.800 --> 0:56:36.040
<v Speaker 2>to train US soldiers that they could recognize the facility

0:56:36.280 --> 0:56:39.000
<v Speaker 2>if they wound out in Iraq, even though their government

0:56:39.040 --> 0:56:41.480
<v Speaker 2>was the only one with the resources to build one, right,

0:56:43.000 --> 0:56:46.320
<v Speaker 2>and Hatfill dutifully builds a lab into an eighteen wheeler

0:56:46.320 --> 0:56:48.520
<v Speaker 2>trailer and he fills it with old lab equipment. Now,

0:56:48.520 --> 0:56:51.239
<v Speaker 2>it was never operational, nor was it meant to be.

0:56:52.000 --> 0:56:55.080
<v Speaker 2>But again, when the anthrax attacks hit, and it becomes

0:56:55.080 --> 0:56:58.520
<v Speaker 2>clear very soon after the anthrax attacks that the anthrax

0:56:58.880 --> 0:57:03.720
<v Speaker 2>either came direct from a military stockpile or was made

0:57:03.800 --> 0:57:07.440
<v Speaker 2>by somebody who utilized the same techniques that we did

0:57:07.480 --> 0:57:10.839
<v Speaker 2>to make weaponized anthrax. This is also going to look

0:57:10.880 --> 0:57:13.440
<v Speaker 2>really wait, you built like a mobile lab, you know

0:57:13.440 --> 0:57:15.040
<v Speaker 2>how to just like build a lab and stick it

0:57:15.080 --> 0:57:18.680
<v Speaker 2>in a truck and make anthrax with it. Okay, maybe

0:57:18.680 --> 0:57:24.800
<v Speaker 2>you're on the list right the CIA. Yeah, so nine

0:57:24.840 --> 0:57:27.120
<v Speaker 2>to eleven happens, and that's where the episode's going to end.

0:57:27.160 --> 0:57:30.200
<v Speaker 2>With nine to eleven. Uh, you know, because after nine

0:57:30.240 --> 0:57:32.520
<v Speaker 2>to eleven, not long after, we're going to get the

0:57:32.640 --> 0:57:35.960
<v Speaker 2>anthrax attacks and Steve's life is going to change dramatically

0:57:36.080 --> 0:57:37.760
<v Speaker 2>for the worst. But I think we've set up the

0:57:37.800 --> 0:57:41.280
<v Speaker 2>dominoes of like why this guy is going to wind

0:57:41.360 --> 0:57:44.080
<v Speaker 2>up in the crosshairs of the media and federal law

0:57:44.160 --> 0:57:45.280
<v Speaker 2>enforcement over this?

0:57:46.960 --> 0:57:48.680
<v Speaker 1>Like, well, fuck, I'm going.

0:57:48.600 --> 0:57:51.360
<v Speaker 3>To be chomping at the bit to figure out what happened?

0:57:51.360 --> 0:57:54.040
<v Speaker 3>Is Stephen how he got into the Trump administration?

0:57:54.360 --> 0:57:58.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, all of these things are like, yes, love.

0:57:57.880 --> 0:58:03.960
<v Speaker 2>That rest part three, but first want to plug your pluggables.

0:58:05.240 --> 0:58:06.440
<v Speaker 1>You guys. I wrote a book.

0:58:06.720 --> 0:58:10.440
<v Speaker 5>It's coming to an age memoir. It's called Girl Gone Wild.

0:58:11.120 --> 0:58:13.120
<v Speaker 5>I alternate between thinking it's.

0:58:13.280 --> 0:58:17.360
<v Speaker 3>Uh, totally embarrassing that I did it, and that it's awesome.

0:58:17.680 --> 0:58:21.360
<v Speaker 3>And so you decide you order it and decide.

0:58:21.320 --> 0:58:26.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you decide we report something or other like that. Anyway,

0:58:27.000 --> 0:58:31.520
<v Speaker 2>everybody just been Behind the Bastards until next week or

0:58:31.560 --> 0:58:35.880
<v Speaker 2>wherever until the next episode, I don't know, go away.

0:58:39.080 --> 0:58:42.000
<v Speaker 6>Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

0:58:42.120 --> 0:58:44.760
<v Speaker 6>For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

0:58:44.840 --> 0:58:48.800
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0:58:48.880 --> 0:58:52.040
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0:58:52.040 --> 0:58:56.120
<v Speaker 6>Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday

0:58:56.200 --> 0:58:59.840
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0:59:00.080 --> 0:59:03.680
<v Speaker 6>at Behind the Bastards