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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everyone, it's still behind the Bastards. Part two of

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Speaker 2: our episodes on how the FBI and the media created

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Speaker 2: a monster by repeatedly accusing the wrong people of terrorism,

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Speaker 2: and we're talking. We talked to the last episode with

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Speaker 2: our guests Courtney Cosak about Richard Jewel and the Olympic

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Speaker 2: Park bombing, and in these next two episodes we're going

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Speaker 2: to be talking about the two thousand and one anthrax

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Speaker 2: attacks in the United States, killed like five people and

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Speaker 2: freaked the whole country the fuck out. You know, these

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Speaker 2: happened right in the wake of nine to eleven. If

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Speaker 2: you're on the younger side of things, I don't think

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Speaker 2: this is as famous. But basically, right after nine to eleven,

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Speaker 2: a bunch of people, including guys like Tom Dashel, some

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Speaker 2: people in government, started receiving letters that had white powder

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Speaker 2: in them. Several people got sick and died, mostly folks

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Speaker 2: who were just happened to be in and around like

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Speaker 2: the mail rooms and stuff where the letters were being opened.

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Speaker 2: And they never found who did it, but they had

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Speaker 2: a suspect for several years. And that suspect is a

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Speaker 2: guy who is a bastard. I think by my standards,

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Speaker 2: but is also again not the bad guy of this story,

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Speaker 2: and we're gonna spend this episode talking about his life

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Speaker 2: and times, because again, he's a fascinating person and I

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Speaker 2: think there's a lot on his own. We probably could

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Speaker 2: do a Bastard's episode, but the thing he's best known

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Speaker 2: for is being wrongly accused of being the Anthrax male guy.

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Speaker 2: And it just felt like, I don't know, it seems

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Speaker 2: weird to do an episode about how much this guy tucks,

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Speaker 2: but also he's fine here, like this wasn't his fault.

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Speaker 2: He was done dirty.

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Speaker 1: So we're just.

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Speaker 2: Talking about, like how both of these in both of

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Speaker 2: these terrorist attacks, the same fucked up thing happened thanks

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Speaker 2: to the FBI and the media being the kinds of

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Speaker 2: Organs that they are.

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Speaker 1: Steve our protagonists this time.

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Speaker 2: Steve is and this is going to be more of

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Speaker 2: a traditional Bastards episode this one, and then in part three,

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Speaker 2: whenever we record that, we'll get to the actual Anthrax

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Speaker 2: attack and what happened to him. But we have to

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Speaker 2: talk about Steve Hatville because who he is and the

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Speaker 2: kind of life he leads are what makes him into

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Speaker 2: the suspect for this terrorist attack, right, and like is

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Speaker 2: why people are is why people in the FBI and

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Speaker 2: the media becomes so convinced that it was him, and

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Speaker 2: he is a fet He's a perfect candidate for bastards

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Speaker 2: like His backstory is insane. He's told a bunch of

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Speaker 2: different versions of his life, many of which can't be true.

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Speaker 2: Independent reporting has repeatedly shown that, like different things he

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Speaker 2: said about his resume and his CV could not have

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Speaker 2: happened that way. So there's a lot of really fun

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Speaker 2: untangling and record correcting to do. So anyway, let's talk

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Speaker 2: about Steve J. Hatville. So. He was born on October

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Speaker 2: twenty fourth, nineteen fifty three, in Saint Louis, Missouri. Like me,

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Speaker 2: he was raised in Mattoon, Illinois. He was the oldest

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Speaker 2: of two kids and the only boy in his family.

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Speaker 2: His mother was a homemaker and part time interior decorator,

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Speaker 2: and his father was an electrical engineer and salesman. Now,

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Speaker 2: the details I've come across don't make it look like

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Speaker 2: his childhood was particularly noteworthy. There's no major trauma or

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Speaker 2: at least anecdotes that we have that foreshadow the man

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Speaker 2: he would become. He describes himself as a bad student

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Speaker 2: and told one reporter, I never took a book home

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Speaker 2: from school. He did better when it came to electives. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and he's other one of these like autodid acts, right, Like,

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Speaker 2: he reads obsessively, at least according to him. He just

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Speaker 2: can't study anything he's not interested in.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it's adhd rain, you know, but he's primarily interested

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Speaker 2: in like medical science and military history, and he can't

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Speaker 2: make himself care about anything else. He does better when

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Speaker 2: it comes to electives. He wrestles for the varsity team.

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Speaker 2: In high school, he flies glider planes and is allowed

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Speaker 2: a solo pilot a glider at age fourteen, which seems early,

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Speaker 2: but you know, go off kid. He graduates Mattoon Senior

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Speaker 2: High and is admitted to Southwestern College in Kansas, where

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Speaker 2: he majors in biology and joins an ROTC like summer

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Speaker 2: leadership program hosted by the Marine Corps. And his goal

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Speaker 2: at this point, and this has been his life goal

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Speaker 2: for at least his latter adolescent period to the start

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Speaker 2: of his adulthood, is to become a fighter pilot for

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Speaker 2: the Marine Corps. Right. He wants to fly jet fighters.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's the coolest job you can do in

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Speaker 2: the military. That's what he wants. And so he goes

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Speaker 2: in and the Marine Corps tests his vision and it's

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Speaker 2: not perfect. And you know what you can't do if

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Speaker 2: you don't have naturally prayericvision is fly a fucking jet.

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Speaker 2: You know, Like, no, sorry, kid, you're screwed anyway. So this,

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Speaker 2: this fucks his life. It seems to have open something

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Speaker 2: inside of him because the Marines are like, well, you

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Speaker 2: could be a navigator, and he's like, I don't want

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Speaker 2: to be a fucking navigator. I want to be a

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Speaker 2: fucking top gunjet pilot, like nobody was to be a navigator.

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Speaker 2: Come on, that's just such a bummer job. Navigators are

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Speaker 2: the bike cops of the piloting world, where it's like,

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Speaker 2: this isn't what you signed up to do. And I

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Speaker 2: know it, Like I know you don't want to be

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Speaker 2: sitting back there. Who needs a navigator anyway? Just bomb wherever.

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Speaker 2: That's what I saying what.

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Speaker 1: I would be too scared I would be a navigator.

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Speaker 1: I hate to say it.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I mean then I get to be the pilot,

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Speaker 2: I guess, so that's a win for me. I have

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Speaker 2: my vision.

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Speaker 4: I just want to know I do not trust you

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Speaker 4: to fly a plane.

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Speaker 2: I think I'd be a great fighter pilot. I mean, Sophy,

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Speaker 2: look at how many F thirty five's and F twenty

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Speaker 2: two's they're crashing these days, F eighteen's. You know I

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Speaker 2: could do at least that. Well, I could crash.

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Speaker 1: One of those things, Barslow, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I could crash that son of a bitch into whatever,

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Speaker 2: you know, a house or I don't care. You're allowed

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Speaker 2: to do anything in the Marine Corps, I assume. So

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Speaker 2: he doesn't join the Marine Corps though, because again he

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Speaker 2: doesn't get to be a pilot. And this kind of

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Speaker 2: I get the feeling reading his backstory that this kind

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Speaker 2: of like shatters him. So he cut He partially drops

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Speaker 2: out of it's less accuracy. He drops out of college

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Speaker 2: because you will go back, but he like suspends his

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Speaker 2: college education and just flies to Africa. Now he's got

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Speaker 2: no formal medical training, but he finds a mission hospital

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Speaker 2: in the Congo. This is not a safe place, This

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Speaker 2: is not an easy place to get to. So he

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Speaker 2: travels and he doesn't reach out to them beforehand. He

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Speaker 2: travels to the Congo, finds this mission doing like medical work.

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Speaker 2: It's like a missionary hospital type deal, and is like, hey,

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Speaker 2: can I help? And the people running this mission are

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Speaker 2: Glenna and Lena eshtruth. Lena describes the nineteen year old

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Speaker 2: Steve as being something of a mystery when he showed

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Speaker 2: up quote, nobody sent him. I don't even know how

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Speaker 2: he knew about us. But they're like, well, he's he's

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Speaker 2: volunteering and we don't have enough people, so let's take

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Speaker 2: him in. I mean, if nothing else, he seems like

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Speaker 2: a lone white kid in the Congo, so he should

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Speaker 2: probably not just let him wander off. So they take

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Speaker 2: him in and he works there and they taught him.

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Speaker 2: He learns, you know, the basics of hematology and parasitology, right,

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Speaker 2: Like he's not enough that he could be a practitioner,

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Speaker 2: but enough that he knows that he's interested in getting

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Speaker 2: a real medical education. Right. He gets some hands on

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Speaker 2: experience and he's like, oh, this is almost as good

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Speaker 2: as killing people in a plane. So he were what

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Speaker 2: I mean, he's not quite as good. Every doctor would

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Speaker 2: rather be dropping a j dam. You know, we all

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Speaker 2: know that.

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Speaker 3: But he does have balls though that part is consistent,

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Speaker 3: Like that part is consistent, Yeah, yes, yeah, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Straight to the Congo, I think we should.

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Speaker 4: I don't think doctor our friend doctor Hodo would agree.

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Speaker 2: You don't think that. I think I think he would

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Speaker 2: agree that it takes the balls to just at nineteen

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Speaker 2: go straight to the Congo to see if you can

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Speaker 2: fight the place to work. It's like an American who

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Speaker 2: grew up in the suburbs. So he returns to the

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Speaker 2: US after this like year he'spens like I think it's

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Speaker 2: about a year in the Congo, and he goes back

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Speaker 2: to Southwestern and he finishes and gets his degree. He

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Speaker 2: gets his undergraduate degree in nineteen seventy five, at which

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Speaker 2: point he joins the Army. Now, every version of the

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Speaker 2: story that hat Phil tells, and quite a few of

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Speaker 2: the articles about Hatfill that are written by reporters who

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Speaker 2: talk to him, will repeat this next part, because he

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Speaker 2: claims that as soon as he joins the Army, he

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Speaker 2: gets into the Green Berets. Do you know what the

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Speaker 2: Green Berets are, Courtney.

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Speaker 1: They're special, They're special.

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Speaker 2: It's a yeah, they're very special boys. Some of the

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Speaker 2: specialist boys in the whole army. That's right, guys, it's

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Speaker 2: a special forces unit. They're more focused on like the

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Speaker 2: Green Beraves are the guys you send in if you've

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Speaker 2: got if you have a bunch of like local militia

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Speaker 2: tie that you want to train up into a fighting

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Speaker 2: force to fuck with whatever country that you're having a

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Speaker 2: great power conflict with, you send them the Green Berets

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Speaker 2: and they spend long periods of time, you know, in

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Speaker 2: the wilderness basically training people how to be insurgents. That's

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Speaker 2: kind of their gig, right, That's that's what the Green

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Speaker 2: Berets do.

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Speaker 1: Is it like Navy Seal adjacent?

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Speaker 2: Yah, it's at that level of special forces, right, like they.

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Speaker 1: Come in before or their trainers.

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Speaker 2: They just do different things. They do it like the

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Speaker 2: Navy Seals are more of the guys carrying out assassinations.

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Speaker 2: The Green Berets are more the guys who are trying

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Speaker 2: to teach, you know, indigenous allies how to set up

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Speaker 2: trip wires in the jungle or whatever, or carry out

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Speaker 2: ambushes on NVA caravans if we're talking about like Vietnam

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Speaker 2: or whatever. So hat Phil claims to have joined the

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Speaker 2: Green Berets, and most of the news articles about him

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Speaker 2: say that he joined the Green Berets. The standard version

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Speaker 2: of that story I'm going to quote from an Atlantic

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Speaker 2: article by David Freed. Here, he took a direct enlistment

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Speaker 2: option to join the Green Berets, attended parachute school, trained

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Speaker 2: as a radio operator, and was assigned to the Army's

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Speaker 2: seventh Special Forces Group at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. When

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Speaker 2: a back injury eventually disqualified him from serving with an

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Speaker 2: operational a team, Hatfill re entered civilian life. He joined

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Speaker 2: the National Guard, married the daughter of a Methodist surgeon

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Speaker 2: he had worked with in Africa, and returned to matun

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Speaker 2: to work the night shift as a security guard at

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Speaker 2: a radiator factory. Now there's some issues with this version

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Speaker 2: of events. First off, he was not in the Green Berets,

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Speaker 2: at least not according to reporting by Marilyn Thompson that

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Speaker 2: was published in the Washington Post. Quote military records show

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Speaker 2: he did enlist in the Army in nineteen seventy five

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Speaker 2: and entered the rigorous Special Forces qualification course at Fort

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Speaker 2: Bragg in nineteen seventy six, but he didn't last long there.

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Speaker 2: After a few weeks he was discharged from active duty

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Speaker 2: and wound up in the Army and National Guard. So

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Speaker 2: that's a really different version of events.

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Speaker 1: It's like not making it through boot camp. Is that

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Speaker 1: what happened?

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Speaker 2: He made it through boot camp, he doesn't make it

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Speaker 2: through Special Force his qualifying school, and then he changes

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Speaker 2: from being enlisted in active duty to being in the

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Speaker 2: National Guard. So something happened. We don't really I don't

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Speaker 2: know that we'll ever know what, but something happened to

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Speaker 2: where like he not only make is it made clear

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Speaker 2: that he's not going to be in Special Forces, but

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Speaker 2: he's not going to be active duty right like, So

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Speaker 2: this is a fairly rapid shift for him, and it

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Speaker 2: suggests that something went really wrong during his Special Forces

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Speaker 2: of qualification course. It may just have been that he

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Speaker 2: was he couldn't make the cut, but for whatever reason,

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Speaker 2: this is not something he does. But he will spend

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Speaker 2: a lot of his life. A lot of articles about

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Speaker 2: this guy say that he was a Green Beret right

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Speaker 2: in his she was yeah, in his mind, he was sure.

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Speaker 2: So that's a very different version of events. And that

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Speaker 2: Atlantic article also describes Hatfill's first marriage in a way

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Speaker 2: that leaves out some details present in other accounts. It

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Speaker 2: sounds like a Bruce Spreensting song there, like, oh, he

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Speaker 2: got injured so he couldn't deploy, and he had to.

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Speaker 2: You know, he married the duck of a Methodist surgeon

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Speaker 2: and he went on to be a security guard and

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Speaker 2: a radiator factory. You know that's not not true. But

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Speaker 2: when you kind of describe it that way, you lose

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Speaker 2: some important context. Because Steve fell in love when he

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Speaker 2: was in Africa with the esh Truth's teenage daughter, Carolyn.

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Speaker 2: Now they're close to the same age. He's like nineteen.

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Speaker 2: I think she's seventeen and turns eighteen, right, so the

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Speaker 2: age thing is not a big deal. Yeah, I say teenage,

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Speaker 2: but he's teenage too. I don't want it to make

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Speaker 2: it out like I'm saying he was being creepy. I

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Speaker 2: don't think it's weird for a seventeen year old and

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Speaker 2: nineteen year old to get interested in each other or whatever.

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Speaker 2: They get married in nineteen seventy six, and in April

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Speaker 2: of nineteen seventy seven, her dad, Glenn, is captured by

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Speaker 2: mercenaries who invaded Zyir from Angola, and he's executed. He's

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Speaker 2: found dead several weeks later, and the Washington Post reports

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Speaker 2: quote Hatfill's marriage soured quickly after his father in law's death.

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Speaker 2: He accompanied Carolyn to a funeral service in Michigan, and

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Speaker 2: that was the last time Lena Estruth saw him. He

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Speaker 2: and Carolyn divorced in nineteen seventy eight. He had no

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Speaker 2: contact with his only child, a daughter named Kayman, who

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Speaker 2: was born shortly before the divorce, until several years ago.

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Speaker 2: Carolyn Estruth says, so why, I don't know that it was,

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Speaker 2: but it's just after he dies the marriage. It may

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Speaker 2: just have not been. They meet when they're teenagers. Maybe

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Speaker 2: they were just never gonna Yeah, I don't know what

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Speaker 2: happened here, but he leaves and he has nothing to

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Speaker 2: do with his kid, right. I don't know if I'd

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Speaker 2: say he abandoned them because I'm unaware of Like is

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Speaker 2: he paying any form of alimony? Is he sending child support?

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Speaker 2: None of that is not the fire of the year, Bud.

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Speaker 2: He's gone right like he bounces.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 2: Now, part of why Steve is not around for his

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Speaker 2: daughter's life is that right after he gets out, like

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Speaker 2: right after this divorce happens, and after he graduates, he

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Speaker 2: returns to Africa. Now, like the rest is Steve's life.

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Speaker 2: There are conflicting stories here, but what we can what's

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Speaker 2: definitely solid, what we know is that in nineteen seventy eight.

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Speaker 2: As soon as he divorces his wife and leaves his

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Speaker 2: kid and ex wife behind, he moves to Rhodesia. That's

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Speaker 2: his first stop. Now, Rhodesia does not exist today, but

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Speaker 2: it was at the time a white supremacist pariah state.

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Speaker 2: This is a British colony where a tiny number of

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Speaker 2: white people ruled over a larger number of black people

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Speaker 2: who had a very different set of rights under the

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Speaker 2: laws of that country. Rhodesia basically becomes a pariah state

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Speaker 2: because they refuse to give up or transition like away

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Speaker 2: from this system of government effectively, and they get wind

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Speaker 2: up being blacklisted by everyone, right like the British government,

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Speaker 2: whoy're supposed to they were supposed to be a colony

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Speaker 2: of refuses to recognize them. You're not supposed to trade

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Speaker 2: with Rhodesia, You're not supposed to certainly not supposed to

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Speaker 2: sell them guns. South Africa is basically their big economic

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Speaker 2: lifeline in addition, like the Portuguese colonies. But it's a

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Speaker 2: really sketchy situation, and by the time he moves there

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Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy eight, Rhodesia is like an international pariah.

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Speaker 2: They are the white separatist state, right, the white supremacist

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Speaker 2: pariah state. Right?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you just made so many references to Rhodesia that

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Speaker 3: I've heard and not understood.

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Speaker 1: Finally makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, I love Rode, one of my favorite stories.

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Speaker 2: So again, Rhodesia doesn't exist anymore because about two years

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Speaker 2: after he moves there, they lose their war to these

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Speaker 2: Marxist insurgents and becomes Zimbabwe. But for the last two

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Speaker 2: years that Rhodesia exists, that's where Steve hat Phil lives

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Speaker 2: and he attends the Godfrey Huggins School of Medicine in Salisbury,

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Speaker 2: which I think was the capital. So choosing to move

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Speaker 2: to Rhodesia in nineteen seventy eight, is it minimum morally questionable?

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Speaker 5: Right?

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Speaker 2: Nobody just travels there because you're like Rhodesia, the name

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Speaker 2: sounds nice. You're aware in the news that the whole

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Speaker 2: world considers them a pariah for the racism and the

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Speaker 2: brutal Bush War that they're persecuting, which is killing huge

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Speaker 2: numbers of civilians, which means that Steve probably didn't have

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Speaker 2: an issue with that. Right, the white supremacist government was

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Speaker 2: clinging to power wherever it could and the state security

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Speaker 2: forces were committing war crimes with reckless abandon hat. Phil

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Speaker 2: would later claim that during his time in Rhodesia, he

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Speaker 2: volunteered as a medic for the Rhodesian Army and was

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Speaker 2: attached to the Sellus Scouts, which was Rhodesia's answer to

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Speaker 2: the Navy Seals. Right, this is Rhodesia's special premier special

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Speaker 2: forces organization. And again you see this repeated constantly in

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Speaker 2: articles about him, that yeah, and he a lot of

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Speaker 2: times they'll just say he was one of the Sellu Scouts.

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Speaker 2: He was a member of this elite unit. The Atlantic

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Speaker 2: reports that, yeah, he was a medica attached to the unit.

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Speaker 2: I've seen both ways. Neither seem to be true. So

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Speaker 2: the Sellus Scouts and the Rhodesian military occupy a place

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Speaker 2: of honor within the modern far right conception of military

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Speaker 2: history because of the way this Bush conflict between these

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Speaker 2: insurgents that represent a much larger portion of the country

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Speaker 2: and the military, which is a mixed race military but

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Speaker 2: exists to support the white supremacist state. Rhodesa kind of

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Speaker 2: invents modern counter insurgent warfare tactics. A lot of stuff

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Speaker 2: that you see that you've seen the US in the

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Speaker 2: Global waruntary using in Afghanistan, in Iraq. There like huge

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Speaker 2: route clearance vehicles that are like up armored to survive IEDs.

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Speaker 2: The way in which like patrols are done, the way

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Speaker 2: in which like you attempt to isolate problem villages or

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Speaker 2: like all of these different tactics for how you're supposed

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Speaker 2: to deal with in it to smoke out insurgents. The

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Speaker 2: modern like insurgent warfare Handbook gets written by Rhodesia right now,

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Speaker 2: It's fascinating, this is arguably accurate, but it's not anything

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Speaker 2: to be proud of, because, yeah, Rhodesia does pioneer a

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Speaker 2: lot of modern counterinsurgent warfare tactics. They don't win, they lose,

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Speaker 2: and by the way, every country who copied their tactics,

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Speaker 2: including the US, also loses a lot of the wars

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Speaker 2: that they use those tactics. And these aren't successful tactics,

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Speaker 2: they're just tactics, like and so there's this whole like, well, there, Rhodesians,

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Speaker 2: they were the ones who really before anyone else knew

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Speaker 2: what the future of warfare was gonna be. And so

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Speaker 2: you get a lot of like people nerding out of

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Speaker 2: the Rhodesian Army over that, and you get a lot

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Speaker 2: of people assessing over the Sellu Scouts, in particular because

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Speaker 2: after Rhodisia fell in nineteen eighty a bunch of former

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Speaker 2: Scouts wrote articles and memoirs about their combat experiences that

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Speaker 2: massively exaggerated how good they had been. Again, they lose

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Speaker 2: the war. And this all feeds into starting in the eighties,

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Speaker 2: there's this growing worship of like special forces that's almost

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Speaker 2: like a cult, right. It reaches its height during the

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Speaker 2: Global War on Terar, But this is we start. It

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Speaker 2: becomes in the media. There's more and more movies about

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Speaker 2: special forces units, and so especially for people on the

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Speaker 2: far right, the Sellu Scouts are like this, Uh, they're idolized, right,

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Speaker 2: And so like the fact that hat Phil really wants

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Speaker 2: people to believe he was in this unit makes a

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Speaker 2: lot of sense given his Again, this guy today is

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Speaker 2: in the Trump administration, given his politics, and just given

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Speaker 2: socially what's what's going on, I'm not surprised he wanted

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Speaker 2: to be affiliated with this.

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Speaker 1: Unit racist special forces. What could be the.

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Speaker 2: Most racist special forces? Yes, like the Sellu Scouts and

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Speaker 2: the SS both use the same acronym so that's that's

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Speaker 2: that's easy. Now. That said, there's good reason to doubt

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Speaker 2: that he had anything to do with the Scouts. Per

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Speaker 2: the Washington Post, Hatfill's resume also claimed that he'd served

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Speaker 2: as a Sello Scout that was time in the Rhodesian

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Speaker 2: military overlapped with his time in the US Army. Rhodesian

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Speaker 2: military records have been hard to find, but Sello Scouts

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Speaker 2: veterans told reporters they'd never heard of Hatfill. The true

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Speaker 2: circumstances of his connection with the unit, if any, remain unclear.

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Speaker 2: So I can't say he didn't he didn't have any

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Speaker 2: connection with them. I don't know. Maybe he was sent

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Speaker 2: somewhere as a scout, but we don't have evidence really

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Speaker 2: other than his word that I've seen, so given the

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Speaker 2: other discrepancies in his background, I would need to see

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Speaker 2: some actual evidence that he served with his unit to

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Speaker 2: believe stories like the one he told The Atlantic Quote.

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Speaker 2: While he was in Rhodesia, Hatfield says a truck he

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Speaker 2: was writing and was ambushed by Marxist insurgents. Leaping from

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Speaker 2: the truck, he landed on his face, badly breaking his nose.

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Speaker 2: He claims, gives him like a lifelong breathing injury that

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Speaker 2: will be relevant a little bit later. But again, did

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Speaker 2: that happen? Did he just break his nose some other way?

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Speaker 2: Did he have any exciting encounters with insurgents at all?

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Speaker 2: Unclear to me. Now, there is some evidence to suggest

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Speaker 2: that his habit of exaggerating the truth dates back at

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Speaker 2: least as far as his time in college. One of

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Speaker 2: his former classmates told Simon Cooper from the Observer quote,

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Speaker 2: he was an extraordinary guy and very very bright, but

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Speaker 2: he was also a real Walter Midty kind of character,

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Speaker 2: and he would tell these enormous, awful lies. He once

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Speaker 2: told me his wife died in the Congo, and again

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Speaker 2: he just left. They divorced. He left her with the kid,

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Speaker 2: her dad died in the Congo. Yeah, and that gives

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Speaker 2: you something too. Where like he And that's why I think, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: he may have been embedded with some chunk of the

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Speaker 2: Rhodesian military as a medic, or maybe back at base

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Speaker 2: he treated some Selu scouts or something. It's usually a

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Speaker 2: degree of like truth that were then exaggerating.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: He went to Fort Bragg, he got did the Special

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Speaker 2: Forces like tests, but he didn't god become a green Beret, right,

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Speaker 2: like he's kind of making ends meet in his stories

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Speaker 2: a lot of the time. But you know who always

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Speaker 2: tells the truth me sponsors. That's right, that's right. They

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Speaker 2: would never pretend to have been a member of the

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Speaker 2: Rhodesian military because they were it. They served in the

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Speaker 2: Rhodesian military. All of our sponsors former Rhodesian Special Forces.

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Speaker 2: It should We didn't right to mega that way. It's weird.

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Speaker 1: Your first instinct is to slam.

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Speaker 2: They love it. It's like negging, you know, like that

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00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,000
Speaker 2: doesn't actually work for dating the pickup artist guys are

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Speaker 2: wrong about that, but it's incredible for advertising.

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Speaker 1: Cor for people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, sometimes I'll just walk I just walked

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Speaker 2: into Ford's offices the other day and I was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: you guys, this in F one fifty call it like

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Speaker 2: an F seventy five, you know. I was like half

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Speaker 2: a truck maybe, and they just walked out and they

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Speaker 2: just mailed us at check. Oh yeah, that's how you

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Speaker 2: do it, people negging.

431
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:38,480
Speaker 6: Here's that.

432
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 2: And we're back. So yeah, it's worth noting because of

433
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,480
Speaker 2: what comes later that Hatfield's time in Rhodesia did directly

434
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,439
Speaker 2: overlap with something that's going to be very relevant to

435
00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,760
Speaker 2: the thing that's going to come to define his adult life,

436
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 2: which is the anthrax attacks in the United States, because

437
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 2: while he is in Rhodesia, Rhodesia suffers the largest, one

438
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:10,160
Speaker 2: of the largest anthrax epidemics ever seen in history. Right

439
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,960
Speaker 2: from nineteen seventy eight to nineteen eighty, the years that

440
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,800
Speaker 2: he's there, thousands and thousands of cattle and several hundred

441
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 2: human beings are killed by anthrax exposure in Rhodesia. Now,

442
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 2: we don't fully know why this happened, and I want

443
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:29,800
Speaker 2: to stay up top anthrax. We don't. People, when you

444
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 2: hear anthraxs you think it's like a weapon, right, Anthrax

445
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 2: is a natural thing, like it occurs. There are places,

446
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:37,680
Speaker 2: Rhodesia is one of them. There are places in the

447
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 2: world where livestock just get anthrax like it's an outbreak.

448
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 2: It's a bacteria, you know, like and livestock if you

449
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 2: are not taking proper care of them. If you're not

450
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 2: and in an area where anthrax is and endemic, they

451
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 2: can get anthrax and they can spread anthrax to people.

452
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,960
Speaker 2: Right now, the kind of exposure human beings tend to

453
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,199
Speaker 2: get when exposed to like livestock that have anthrax is

454
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:04,440
Speaker 2: different from say, inhaling anthrax that has been like weaponized

455
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,119
Speaker 2: and turned into this like fine powder, that's much deadlier,

456
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 2: You're less likely to die. But anthrax can just happen

457
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,199
Speaker 2: and does just happen and has nothing to do with

458
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 2: anybody using a weapon.

459
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,679
Speaker 5: Right, was this targeted like the version that you're talking about.

460
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 2: We don't know. Maybe is the answer I'll give you.

461
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 2: Because Rhodesia had a massive chemical and biological weapons program,

462
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:33,160
Speaker 2: and they used chemical and biological weapons on insurgents. Right,

463
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:35,920
Speaker 2: So there's there, and there's there's good reasons to think

464
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 2: that this massive pandemic may have been started by the

465
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:48,400
Speaker 2: Rhodesian military using biological weapons. There's a couple of expect this. Yeah,

466
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 2: the pandemic almost exclusively affected cattle on what we're called

467
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 2: tribal trust lands, which are subsistent farms operated by the

468
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,199
Speaker 2: majority black population, and it tended to skip over the

469
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 2: herds of white owned commercial farms.

470
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 3: Right.

471
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 2: The people who died were all black Rhodesians, and nearly

472
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 2: all of the human beings who got exposed to anthrax

473
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 2: in Rhodesia were black.

474
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,119
Speaker 1: That is racist bacteria.

475
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 2: It's a racist bacteria. Yeah, Rhodesia had four years used

476
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 2: chemical weapons and disease to try and murder Marxist guerrilla fighters,

477
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 2: in part because they couldn't buy traditional weapons from most

478
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 2: other countries, so they were really kind of scraping the

479
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:27,879
Speaker 2: barrel of like what kind of weapons systems can we

480
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:32,679
Speaker 2: put together? So as their chances of victory declined, doctor

481
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 2: Robert Simington, who was a professor at the Unity of

482
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 2: Rhodesha's medical school where Steve Hatfill studied, urged the country

483
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 2: to adopt a new counterinsurgency program based on chemical and

484
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,920
Speaker 2: biological weapons. The government agreed to summarize how this worked out.

485
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 2: I want to quote now from an article in the

486
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 2: journal Curious by Matthew Turner, drawing from a number of

487
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 2: medical and veterinary students from the University of Rhodesia. Simington

488
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,920
Speaker 2: allegedly began human experimentation as early as nineteen seventy five.

489
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:03,159
Speaker 2: The CBW program experimented with a number of compounds, including warfarin,

490
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 2: paratheon thallium, and vibro cholera. Doctor Symington was said by

491
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,679
Speaker 2: one officer to have killed more terrorists than the Rodesian

492
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 2: Light Infantry during certain months of the war, the CBW

493
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 2: program saw its greatest successes with the use of parathion,

494
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 2: an organophosphate used in pesticides. In isolated locations, CBW employees

495
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,920
Speaker 2: soaked hundreds of articles of clothing and parathion solutions, afterwards

496
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 2: drying them to eliminate the smell. The poison clothing was

497
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 2: then distributed to gorilla forces through local contacts who had

498
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 2: directly donate it to gorilla recruits by contaminating discovered caches

499
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,399
Speaker 2: of gorilla supplies or by stalking stores that were in

500
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 2: gorilla heavy areas and expected to be ransacked. Other uses

501
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 2: of CBW included the deliberate poisoning of food stuffs with

502
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,680
Speaker 2: thallium and warfarin, as well as deployment of cholera to

503
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 2: contaminate water sources known to be frequented by guerrillas. The

504
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 2: use of cholera and warfare made Rhodesia the first nation

505
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 2: to intentionally deploy biological weapons after the nineteen seventy five

506
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:04,360
Speaker 2: passage of the Biological Weapons Convention. Again, great guys, great country,

507
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 2: really really good people. And again this is where he

508
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 2: chooses to go to medical school. It says a lot

509
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,159
Speaker 2: about you that, Yeah, this is where you wanted to

510
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 2: be at this point in your life. Now, we do

511
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 2: know the Rhodesian military absolutely did and is confirmed to

512
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 2: have weaponized and used anthras on human beings on multiple occasions.

513
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 2: The elite SELLU scouts actually used like we're one of

514
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 2: the groups that deployed anthrax against like targeted groups of gorillas.

515
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 6: Right.

516
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,400
Speaker 2: We don't know how many people died from Rhodesian cbwus,

517
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 2: but it's at least in the hundreds and probably in

518
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,360
Speaker 2: the thousands, and it may account for as many as

519
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 2: fifteen percent of all casualties in the Bush War. So

520
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 2: this is fucked up and important. But I also need

521
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 2: to end this digression on a counterintuitive note, which is

522
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 2: that that all makes it really seem like, Okay, well

523
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 2: they definitely cause that anthrax outbreak nineteen seventy eight to

524
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty, right, obviously they did, right, Yeah, And this

525
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 2: is kind of I brought it up this way because

526
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 2: it's it's a good example of why Richard Jewle got

527
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,640
Speaker 2: suspected in the first episode and why Hatfill is going

528
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,199
Speaker 2: to get suspected in this one. Is if you just

529
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,640
Speaker 2: look at a narrow chunk of the facts you can

530
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 2: make a case that while this is the only possible thing, right,

531
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 2: if you just read out the facts that I just read,

532
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 2: you obviously Rhodesia caused this massive pandemic, right, It's the

533
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 2: only explanation. They were using anthrax as a weapon. Why

534
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 2: wouldn't they have done this? Right? However, as Matthew Turner

535
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 2: points out in this study, which is not at all

536
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 2: sympathetic to the Rhodesian military and talks an extent about

537
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 2: their horrible warcarms of chemical and biological weapons, there's a

538
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 2: lot of good reason to believe that this was a

539
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 2: natural anthrax outbreak. And there's there's some scientific reasons just

540
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 2: because of the type of anthrax that these animals are

541
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 2: sick with and how it spreads, that looks more like

542
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 2: a natural pandemic than one that was used by weaponized anthrax.

543
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 2: But there's other reasons for one thing, this is late

544
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 2: in the war. The Rhodesian government is collapsing. They have

545
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 2: suspended all of their large scale veterinary programs to improve

546
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 2: livestock health. They had been vaccinating, like dipping and what not,

547
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 2: all cattle in the country, and that has stopped. By

548
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy eight, anthrax is naturally endemic to the region,

549
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 2: and the outbreak occurred alongside other outbreaks that infected cattle populations.

550
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 2: The anthrax outbreak is one of a number of outbreaks

551
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 2: that's wiping out cattle in Rhodesia because the state programs

552
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 2: to treat cattle have gone away because of the war.

553
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 2: Right now, there's also again we talked about how it

554
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 2: primarily hit cattle and like these black subsistent farms as

555
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 2: opposed to like the corp because those farms had money

556
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 2: and we're able to continue medicating their cattle. Right and again,

557
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 2: why is it more black? Well, Number one, the vast

558
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 2: majority of the country's black, and number two, the white

559
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 2: people are eating and spending their time farming animals that

560
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 2: have access to good medical care. Right yes, Like so

561
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 2: when you and again this is going to be the

562
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 2: case with when Steve Hatfiel gets suspected of If you

563
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 2: look at one subset of the facts, obviously the guy

564
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 2: did it. And then if you look peel back and

565
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 2: look at more of the facts, it's like, well, no,

566
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 2: maybe I was looking at too narrow a subset of information.

567
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 2: Now I should say it's still possible Rodisha did this.

568
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:32,239
Speaker 2: That like the anthrax pandemic was or epidemic was a

569
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 2: purposeful one that they like were trying to wipe out

570
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 2: the foods, because we know that they were. It's just

571
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 2: we have a lot of data on other times they

572
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 2: used these weapons and this really doesn't look like that.

573
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 2: It does look a lot more like a natural outbreak.

574
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 1: They wouldn't have been successful.

575
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 2: It would fitted no, no, no, like this. It would

576
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 2: have gone worse because they were they were.

577
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: Bad at this.

578
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 2: Now I should also note again that because Steve is

579
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 2: going to be accused of being the Anthra expumber, the

580
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 2: fact that he is in Rhodesia and allegedly had worked

581
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 2: with the Sellu scouts who used anthrax and is in

582
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 2: Rhodesia at the same time as an anthrax outbreak again

583
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 2: in two thousand and one, people are gonna read about

584
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 2: this and go, obviously it's this guy, right, it has

585
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 2: to be him. Now. More diligent reporting and there was

586
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 2: not nearly enough of that when Steve was being accused,

587
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 2: would point out, among other things like, okay, but the

588
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 2: Rhodesian military, this guy's like an American without any real experience,

589
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 2: who's in med school. Why would they have looped him

590
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 2: in on their secret, incredibly illegal plans to use deadly

591
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 2: chemical and biology. He's like fucking twenty, like why would

592
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 2: they do that? Like he's not who you pick, you

593
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 2: don't need him, and there's no evidence whatsoever they had

594
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 2: anything to do with the chemical and biological weapons campaign

595
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 2: carried out by Rhodesia. It's possible that this is why

596
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 2: he starts to get interested in chemical and biological weapons,

597
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 2: which he does, and he's going to become an expert

598
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 2: on them later, but that speculation on my part. So

599
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 2: he graduates, I think he has to go from Rhodesia

600
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 2: to South Africa, but eventually does graduate and he gets

601
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 2: the equivalent of an MD in nineteen eighty four.

602
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 3: But they're like actually EU Rhodesian med schools not yet.

603
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 2: South Africa takes it though they're fine, so this is

604
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 2: a near thing. In nineteen eighty three, he failed and

605
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 2: he had to repeat a year of med school. One

606
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 2: British newspaper reported that when he found this out, he

607
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 2: had a tantrum in the hallway. The Post interviewed one

608
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 2: of his former classmates, who told a story about Hatfille

609
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 2: punching out a peer quote. He is not someone I

610
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 2: would ever want to cross, wrote another classmate, So maybe not,

611
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 2: you know, the nicest guy. Although all of these quotes

612
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 2: do come from when he was suspected of carrying out

613
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 2: a terrorist attack that killed five people, So part of

614
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 2: me is like, should I even trust these quotes because

615
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 2: they're from people who like were deliberately being solicit. That said,

616
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 2: there's enough in his background to be like, yeah, maybe

617
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 2: he just was kind of a dick with a short temper.

618
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 2: You know, two things could be true at once. So

619
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,959
Speaker 2: he becomes a doctor. He does a one year internship

620
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 2: in a rural South African hospital, after which point he

621
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 2: is recruited to do a fourteen month tour with South

622
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 2: Africa's National Antarctic Expedition in the nineteen eighties. Yeah, so

623
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 2: he does that. Cool career's going well, yeah, yeah, that

624
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 2: sounds a lot better than what he's going to wind up.

625
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: Doing for a living.

626
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 4: What school is he attending here?

627
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 2: It's Cape Town University of Cape Town through the nineteen eighties.

628
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 2: He gets three master's degrees in different sciences there, and

629
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 2: he tries to get a PhD. He almost finishes it,

630
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 2: but his doctoral thesis isn't accepted. We'll come back to

631
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 2: that later, because this is going to be another case

632
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 2: like with the Green Berets, where he almost had a

633
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 2: PhD but he didn't And some of the things, some

634
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 2: of the the resumes he writes out are sure gonna

635
00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 2: say PhD.

636
00:33:58,960 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 3: Right.

637
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 2: So, during his years as a student in South Africa,

638
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 2: hat Phil is alleged to have run into more conflicts

639
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,359
Speaker 2: with his peers, per The Washington Post reporting a Johannesburg

640
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,959
Speaker 2: newspaper reporter that hat Phil had carried a gun into

641
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 2: South African medical laboratories and boasted the colleagues that he'd

642
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 2: trained bodyguards for white separatist Eugene terre Blanche and just

643
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 2: carrying a gun into the lab is very South African stuff,

644
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 2: and the fact that South Africans are being like nah,

645
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 2: but he did it in a weird way. He was

646
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,319
Speaker 2: talking about being racist in a weird way to us

647
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:39,359
Speaker 2: and apartheid South Africa. Wow, yeah, just the Bratton Again.

648
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 2: I don't see any evidence that he trained bodyguards for

649
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 2: this white separatist, but it gives you an idea of

650
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 2: like where's politics are right? If that's true, you know,

651
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 2: can't say for certain that that newspaper's reporting is accurate,

652
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 2: but that's what was reported. Hat Phil would later fill

653
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 2: his resume with claims that he'd also gotten a medical

654
00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 2: degree in the UK, and in fact there are there's

655
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 2: at least some evidence that he pretended his degree was

656
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 2: from the UK as opposed to from you know, these

657
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,840
Speaker 2: African college as he went to. He would claim to

658
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 2: have been a member of the Royal Society of Medicine.

659
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 2: Neither of these seem to be accurate, per the Observer quote.

660
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 2: One professional resume claimed he had a medical degree from

661
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 2: the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons, Edinburgh, a body

662
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 2: which doesn't exist. Another said his medical degree was gained

663
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 2: in Edinburgh at nineteen eighty four, when he in fact

664
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 2: qualified as a doctor that year in Zimbabwe. The Royal

665
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 2: Society of Medicine has no record of him and he

666
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,320
Speaker 2: is not a fellow of the Society, as his resume claims.

667
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 1: That's like bold pre internet lying, right.

668
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,359
Speaker 2: And you could so get away with this shit before.

669
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 2: That's what bums me out. I could be so many things.

670
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 2: I could be doing surgery today. I could be cutting

671
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,759
Speaker 2: into a motherfucker and taking an oregon out today. If

672
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 2: it was the nineteen eighties, my god.

673
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 4: I don't think I wanted you to do that either.

674
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 2: I think I'd be great at it, but no one's

675
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 2: going to let me try. They're scared that I'd show

676
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 2: him up. It'd be better. Oh yeah, maybe he'll be

677
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 2: too good. Maybe I'm too good at surgery.

678
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 3: If you're the kind of guy who would just like

679
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 3: take off the and go to the congo like without

680
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 3: an invitation, you are also the kind of guy who

681
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 3: would like just blatantly lie on your.

682
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely wild. Now hatfill is you know, he does

683
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 2: some stuff in England. He's at Oxford briefly he works

684
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 2: as like a cancered specialist in the Nuffield Department of

685
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 2: Pathology and Bacteriology in Oxford in nineteen ninety four. But

686
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 2: he also, I mean, he's at least accused of having

687
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 2: faked a reference again per the observers reporting, he faked

688
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 2: a reference quote from the distinguished Oxford professor James O.

689
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 2: D McGee to apply for his next job back in

690
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 2: the United States that he didn't have. And you know,

691
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 2: a little bit of resume fakery. Who amongst us hasn't

692
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 2: done that, although maybe not if you're trying to be

693
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 2: a doctor and he is a real doctor, would be clear.

694
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 2: But he does have a real MD. It's a PhD

695
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 2: he didn't get. And yeah, that's the last really big

696
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 2: question mark on his resume is that he would periodically

697
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,320
Speaker 2: claim to have a PhD from Rhodes University in South

698
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 2: Africa in addition to his MD. And he makes this

699
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 2: claim after he returns to the US when he's trying

700
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 2: to get a federal research grant. However, back in Rhodes University,

701
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 2: his dissertation on treating leukemia had been denied by the

702
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 2: review committee. They decided his methodology was flawed and they

703
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:30,919
Speaker 2: declined to give him a PhD in nineteen ninety five.

704
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 2: Now he will say that, like, when I applied for

705
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 2: this grant, basically I thought I was going to get

706
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,240
Speaker 2: the PhD, so I wrote it down. It was before,

707
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,320
Speaker 2: you know, they turned me down. I don't know. Maybe

708
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 2: it was the case of him just you know, thinking

709
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 2: he was going to pass and it was fine because

710
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 2: he'd done everything else. That said, it's pretty consistent with

711
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:53,840
Speaker 2: the other I don't know, the tenuous relationship with the

712
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 2: truth that we've seen previously here. Right, So, yeah, he

713
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 2: spends the mid nineties, he goes back to the oost

714
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 2: for a bit. He does that fellowship at Oxford, and

715
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 2: the job at Oxford gets him a job studying not

716
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 2: just cancer but HIV and LYME disease for the National

717
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,240
Speaker 2: Institutes of Health in the United States, and his interest

718
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 2: in infectious diseases starts to guide him.

719
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:15,399
Speaker 3: Now.

720
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 2: In late nineteen ninety seven, he starts a two year

721
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 2: fellowship with USAMRID to study Ebola and other haemorrhagic fevers.

722
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 2: USAMRID is the acronyms and it's usamriid. USAMRID is the

723
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,240
Speaker 2: acronym for the United States Army and Medical Research Institute

724
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 2: of Infectious Diseases. This is the top biodefense laboratory in

725
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 2: the country, with a mission to study both biological weapons

726
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 2: and diseases like a bola that are seen to have

727
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 2: a high potential for weaponization. Their primary client is the

728
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 2: US Army, and they do a lot of work in

729
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 2: Fort Detrick, which is where the US used to host

730
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 2: its Germ Weapons R INDEED Apartment until we stopped admitting

731
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 2: that we had a Germ weaponr in DED department in

732
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty nine. Officially, we stopped making germ biological weapons

733
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty nine. Do I think we totally stopped.

734
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 3: I don't know.

735
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:12,399
Speaker 2: I don't home I think we did, but officially we did.

736
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 2: Now Usamrid is an extremely serious organization and they are

737
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 2: doing some of the most dangerous work imaginable. Right Like,

738
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 2: this is a thing you would need in any country,

739
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,799
Speaker 2: even if it was an ethical defense department. Right is

740
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:28,720
Speaker 2: a branch of the government whose job is to figure

741
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 2: out what kind of diseases or illnesses maybe weaponized or invented,

742
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 2: and how would we fight against them? Right Like, that's

743
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,360
Speaker 2: an important thing to do, you know, just the world

744
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 2: being what it is. In his book The Demon in

745
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 2: the Freezer, Richard Preston gives a useful description and by useful,

746
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,319
Speaker 2: I mean terrifying description of you Samrid, a headquarters that

747
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 2: is just kind of chilling. The main building of you

748
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:54,919
Speaker 2: Samrid is a dun colored two story monolith that looks

749
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 2: like a warehouse that is virtually no windows and tubular

750
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,840
Speaker 2: chimneys sprout from its roof. The building cover seven acres

751
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 2: of ground. There are biocontainment suites near the center of

752
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,399
Speaker 2: the building, groups of laboratory rooms that are sealed off

753
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 2: and kept under negative air pressure. So that nothing contagious

754
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 2: will leak out. The suites are classified at differing levels

755
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 2: of biosecurity, from biosafety level two to level three, and

756
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 2: finally to level four, which is the highest and where

757
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 2: scientists wearing biosafety spacesuits work with hot agents lethal in

758
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 2: curable viruses. A bioprotective spacesuit is a pressurized plastic suit

759
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 2: that covers the entire body. It is a soft plastic

760
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 2: head bubble with a clear face plate, and it is

761
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 2: fed by sterile air coming through a hose and an

762
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 2: air regulator. The chimneys of the buildings are always exhausting,

763
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 2: superfiltered and superheated sterilized air, which is drawn out of

764
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 2: the biocontainment zones. Usamrid was now surrounded by concrete barriers

765
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 2: to prevent a truck bomber cracking open a biosafety level

766
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 2: four sweet and releasing a hot agent into the air. So,

767
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:51,880
Speaker 2: just going through the list of security that gives you

768
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:55,479
Speaker 2: an idea of how deadly the shit in here is. Right, Okay,

769
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 2: these are your planet killers?

770
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so we're.

771
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 5: In the UK and these guys are actually right, and

772
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 5: we're and these guys.

773
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 2: Are actually do us he's moved to the US. Oh

774
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 2: we're in the Usamrid is the is a US, like

775
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 2: it's it's the US biowar like biological weapons research.

776
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 5: Until we said we shut it down and these guys

777
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 5: are actually doing good stuff.

778
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 2: No, we shut down the R and D department at

779
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 2: Fort Dietrich, Right, So you Samrid is based out of

780
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 2: Fort Dietrich too. Fort Dietrich is where all of our

781
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,320
Speaker 2: scary chemical and biological weapons stuff is. So we stopped

782
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 2: making new weapons in sixty nine, but we still research

783
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 2: what kind of weapons people might make and research like

784
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 2: ways to defend them. Right, That's what you Samrid is

785
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 2: doing is they are trying to know and it's not

786
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 2: just weapons, but like you know, when you have a

787
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,799
Speaker 2: bowl outbreak in Africa, right you Samrid starts, you know,

788
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 2: you're going to increase the amount of people who are

789
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 2: working on Okay, Like, well, if it spreads over here,

790
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:55,840
Speaker 2: if it gets here, if we have an outbreak, what

791
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 2: might that look like? How would we treat it?

792
00:41:57,719 --> 00:41:57,879
Speaker 3: Right?

793
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:00,839
Speaker 2: What if someone weaponized a bola? Is that possible? Let's

794
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 2: look into whether or not you could weaponize it. What

795
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 2: would the defense against that be? Right, they're doing stuff

796
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 2: like that. You know, if somebody started to wanted to

797
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:12,359
Speaker 2: carry out an anthrax attack, how theoretically would an anthrax attack? Look,

798
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,879
Speaker 2: how deadly would it be? What would be the procedures

799
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 2: we need to establish?

800
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 3: You know?

801
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 2: What do we need to have ready so that if

802
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,719
Speaker 2: that happens at a moment's notice, we can get guys

803
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 2: into an area in order to deal with an anthrax outbreak? Right,

804
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:26,919
Speaker 2: that's the kind of shit you stamrit's trying to figure out.

805
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:29,920
Speaker 5: I totally get that this is important and necessary, but

806
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:30,839
Speaker 5: it does seem like.

807
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,800
Speaker 1: The line of like, are you doing more harm than good?

808
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 1: Gets a little bit dicey when you talk about this.

809
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:38,799
Speaker 2: And it's also the line between like, well, what counts

810
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:41,919
Speaker 2: as R and D for new new Yes? Yeah, shit

811
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 2: like as opposed to R and D on how to

812
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 2: fight it? Yeah, And it's there's always a Again, the

813
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 2: degree of security in this facility is proof of the

814
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 2: danger because you have had like in Russia, there was

815
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:56,800
Speaker 2: a horrible anthrax outbreak because one of like a Russian

816
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 2: equivalent to this facility had a fucking breach and a

817
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 2: bunch of people got sick. Right, Like, these are scary

818
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 2: places and the consequences of things going wrong in a

819
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,879
Speaker 2: place like Fort Dietrich and the USAMRIID Facility, there is

820
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 2: very high Stephen King's the stand for like focuses on.

821
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 2: I think it's basically a base that's meant to stand

822
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 2: in for Fort Ditrich. I forget exactly what it's called

823
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:22,399
Speaker 2: on that, but that's that's how the virus that kills

824
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:24,919
Speaker 2: the whole world gets out. Is it's something where that's

825
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 2: part of like a research and there's a breach and

826
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 2: it gets out and it kills everybody. And you know,

827
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 2: I don't know if any of the diseases that they

828
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 2: have access to could wipe out the whole planet, but

829
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 2: they could kill a shitload of people. Like they have

830
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:42,239
Speaker 2: a lot of scary stuff at the USAMRIID Facility, and

831
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 2: so if you are working there, you are working with

832
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:48,240
Speaker 2: very scary stuff. Steve Hatfill is doing very serious work

833
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 2: at this point, right and he is qualified to do it,

834
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 2: not as qualified as his resumes and CV makeums out,

835
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 2: but he does have the MD. He did do like

836
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 2: he went to Oxford and he did that year there,

837
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 2: Like he's got qualifications. He just I think he just

838
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:04,840
Speaker 2: can't help judge it up a little bit. He's not

839
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 2: as cool as he wants to be, that's my interpretation.

840
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:11,400
Speaker 2: So he's one of his first jobs there is he's

841
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 2: carrying out experiments on the cock monkeys, infecting them with

842
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 2: deadly viruses and watching them die. This fucks them up

843
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 2: to some extent. He'd sneak the animals Reese's pieces out

844
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 2: of sheer guilt to try to like, maybe if I

845
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:26,320
Speaker 2: give him candy, I don't feel as bad about killing

846
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 2: these monkeys. It doesn't seem like a fun job to be.

847
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 2: Over the next couple of years, Hatfilm makes himself into

848
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,359
Speaker 2: one of the nation's top experts on germ warfare. He's

849
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 2: a virus guy. He's not into anthrax. Anthrax is a bacteria,

850
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 2: so he doesn't really work. He never works directly with anthrax,

851
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 2: although he is aware of it. He studies it somewhat,

852
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 2: but he's more into the viruses. He's very charismatic and

853
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 2: he's good at teaching, so he ston starts getting contracts

854
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 2: to instruct special forces teams on defensive techniques. Right, So,

855
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 2: in addition to this job with you, Samred, he's getting

856
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 2: like he's giving seminars, he's giving speech and he's also

857
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 2: conducting training classes on like, Okay, if you encounter a

858
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 2: biological weapons factory in the field, right, here's what you

859
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 2: would do. Here's what the things to look out for

860
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 2: that could be dangerous. Here's how to make the scene safe.

861
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 2: Here are the different prophylactics you could use in different

862
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 2: kind of situations. Like he's training them on that kind

863
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:22,440
Speaker 2: of stuff, right, And this is all you know. Right

864
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 2: around the late nineties is like the millenniums coming to

865
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 2: an end. There's a couple of hoax anthrax attacks in

866
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,840
Speaker 2: the US where letters that are filled with white powder

867
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:34,840
Speaker 2: that isn't anthrax, but the letter claims that they're anthrax,

868
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 2: are sent to varying places, right, And so there's panics

869
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 2: in the media in the public over anthrax attacks. And

870
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 2: this corresponds to a growing public and official awareness that

871
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 2: bioterrorism is a real threat. And hat Phil he kind

872
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 2: of picks his moment well, right as Americans are starting

873
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 2: to freak out about bioterrorism, he cashes in on it.

874
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,319
Speaker 2: And I don't mean that in an ethical sense, just

875
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,360
Speaker 2: in a he makes a good career move. He starts

876
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 2: give lectures at conventions and talking to reporters about America's

877
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:06,839
Speaker 2: unreadiness to face a weaponized pathogen. In nineteen ninety eight,

878
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 2: he's interviewed by Insight magazine and he makes the in

879
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:13,279
Speaker 2: retrospect poor choice to let them photograph him dressed in

880
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 2: biohazard gear cooking up diseases in a kitchen. Right.

881
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 1: I found that photo.

882
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, those photos are going to be found when he's

883
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 2: accused of doing the anthrax attacks. That they will not

884
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 2: make him look good. He warned the interviewer in that

885
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 2: article that these fake anthrax attacks could quote be a

886
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 2: form of testing for a future terrorist attack. Now. I

887
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 2: haven't run into any evidence that Hatfield's colleagues questioned his

888
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,279
Speaker 2: expertise or skill at his job during this period, but

889
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:44,760
Speaker 2: some of them did question his judgment in other areas,

890
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 2: per The Washington Post, At a seminar in New York,

891
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 2: he demonstrated one of his favorite bioterrorism scenarios, a terrorist

892
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:53,920
Speaker 2: using a wheelchair to sneak past White House security with

893
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:57,320
Speaker 2: a biological agent, says Jerome Hower, the New York City's

894
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 2: Emergency Preparedness director. Hower was a pall after the presentation.

895
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 2: He says, he called hat phil aside and told him

896
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 2: he had gone too far. It was too detailed, too

897
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 2: specific to go into a public forum. Hatfhil listened, Hall

898
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 2: Power said, but he shrugged it off. And so he's

899
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 2: like he's like laying out. He's not just saying, oh,

900
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 2: it'd be cool, like you could maybe do this. He's

901
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 2: like walking through, here are all the different levels of

902
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 2: security in the White House, and here's how you would

903
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 2: get past each one with a weaponized pathogen and a wheelchair.

904
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 2: Like he's really making a very easy to follow guide

905
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 2: for poisoning the White House.

906
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 1: Here's the bootprint.

907
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:33,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that is his job to an extent. But

908
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 2: maybe you don't have to do that at like a

909
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:37,799
Speaker 2: public presentation. That might not be Yeah, that might not

910
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:41,799
Speaker 2: be the most most responsible thing to do. You know,

911
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:45,759
Speaker 2: who would never poison anyone with a wheelchair filled with anthrax?

912
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 3: The sponsors those duties.

913
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:55,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, they don't even have access to anthrax. Weaponized bola absolutely,

914
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 2: Oh my god. Thew Apron guys actually have enough weaponized

915
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:01,279
Speaker 2: a bowla to wipe out the whole planet. But that's

916
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 2: just a part of their their Salisbury Steak Friday package. Hmm. Yeah,

917
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 2: the taste of a bola and we're back. I don't

918
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 2: think we're going to get any more Blue Apron money, Sophie.

919
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 4: That's okay, that's okay.

920
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 2: I don't think they ever gave us any money. It

921
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 2: was that other company that I forget Hello Fresh, Hello Fresh. Yeah,

922
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:30,399
Speaker 2: they don't have any abola.

923
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, bowl of free, dinner.

924
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 2: Bowl of free. That's right, Hello Fresh, say goodbye to

925
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 2: a Bolao. So a lot of Hatfill's success within the

926
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 2: field of bioterrorism warfare research came down to the fact

927
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 2: that he picked a good mentor he got very lucky

928
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:49,240
Speaker 2: that he like he hits it off with this guy

929
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 2: who had worked at Usamred. He'd been one of the

930
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:54,759
Speaker 2: scientists back in like the fifties who'd help create our

931
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 2: US bioweapons arsenal back when we still officially had one,

932
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 2: and then he retired from you Stamford and became a

933
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:05,759
Speaker 2: bio warfare consultant. He has five secret patents on weaponized anthrax,

934
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 2: Bill Patrick. So Bill is like the top guy and

935
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 2: the terrifying murder weapons business. Right, how do you get

936
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:18,279
Speaker 2: it's a patent for something that's like you did it,

937
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:21,279
Speaker 2: and you you get the patent on it in case

938
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 2: anyone ever like makes it and makes money off it.

939
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 2: But you can't publish the patent because then people would

940
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 2: know how to weaponize anthrax, and we don't want that.

941
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:32,400
Speaker 2: We don't people just like looking up the patent for

942
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:36,759
Speaker 2: weaponized anthrax and following that, right, So maybe you want

943
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 2: to keep that certain things the secret. Yeah, yeah, probably

944
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 2: keep that sealed. In this case, I am in alignment

945
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 2: with the government policy. Yeah, I shouldn't have the weaponized

946
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:51,240
Speaker 2: anthrax plans online. Also, this brings me to a special

947
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 2: ad from our sponsor, Audible and their new book, how

948
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 2: to Weaponize Anthrax and five Easy Steps. You don't even

949
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 2: have to read it. You can just listen to it

950
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 2: and you could be weaponizing anthrax and.

951
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:05,280
Speaker 1: Under forty eight listen to on Tyranny or something.

952
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:10,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was, Yeah, maybe listen to the anthrax book

953
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 2: when you're trying.

954
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:12,760
Speaker 4: To you're disappointing me today.

955
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 2: Well, I won't be disappointing you when I weaponized some

956
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 2: anthrax Selvie. Then I'll have anthrax. Nope, I probably shouldn't

957
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:24,840
Speaker 2: talk about that online. So Patrick wants a protege. You

958
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 2: know this guy, he's in his seventies now, he's getting older,

959
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 2: and he wants someone to follow in his footsteps, and

960
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 2: he meets hat Phil and considers him just gung ho

961
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 2: enough for the job, and per the Washington Post quote,

962
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 2: the two struck up a friendship like father and son,

963
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 2: says one bio terror expert who watched the ties develop.

964
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 2: When Patrick's schedule was too full to attend a program

965
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:47,719
Speaker 2: or contribute to his study, he recommended Hatfill, who often

966
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 2: did the work for free. Hatfil drove Patrick to consulting

967
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:53,440
Speaker 2: jobs at sai C and traveled with him to professional

968
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 2: conferences and classified briefings on the weaponization process. Hatfill was

969
00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:59,880
Speaker 2: often a dinner guest at Patrick's home, where Patrick says

970
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:02,799
Speaker 2: he keeps the basic lab equipment needed to make bacteria

971
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 2: into a finely ground powder. Normal thing to keep in

972
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 2: your house. Oh, no, normal thing to keep in your house, Patrick,

973
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:16,439
Speaker 2: I too, keep that noe. Okay. In nineteen ninety nine,

974
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:19,480
Speaker 2: Patrick helps Hatfield get a job at these Science Applications

975
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 2: International Corporation or SAIIC. This is a private contract or.

976
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:25,799
Speaker 2: They do a bunch of shit. One of the things

977
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 2: they do is they help the DoD as consultants with

978
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:31,880
Speaker 2: bioweapons defense. So by this point Steve is a recognized expert,

979
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 2: and he's hit in just a couple of years, he's

980
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:36,400
Speaker 2: gotten to the point anyone in a field like this

981
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 2: wants to where you can. He's still employed at you, Samred,

982
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 2: but you can start taking private sector money as a

983
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:48,279
Speaker 2: consultant because that's where the real cash is. Baby, and

984
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 2: he is an expert, but he often does still make

985
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 2: claims about his knowledge that go beyond at least what

986
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 2: his official resume should have made possible. For example, he

987
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:00,719
Speaker 2: claimed to have knowledge of both wet and dry biological

988
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 2: agents and how to produce them. The number of Americans

989
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:07,799
Speaker 2: who can do who can actually claim that do have

990
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:10,359
Speaker 2: extensive knowledge of wet and dry biological agents and how

991
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:12,360
Speaker 2: to produce them was at this point maybe fifty to

992
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:14,919
Speaker 2: one hundred people. Right, this is the number of people

993
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:17,840
Speaker 2: who could take anthrax and turn it into a dry,

994
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 2: powdered biological agent. Right, maybe one hundred people tops in

995
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:23,480
Speaker 2: the whole country could have done that.

996
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 1: Right, And we're saying he's not good enough, but he's he's.

997
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 2: Like, but he does not have he doesn't have the

998
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:32,080
Speaker 2: professional background to have done that.

999
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:34,440
Speaker 1: He's like, Patrick, shit showed me over.

1000
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 2: Dinner, Right, Well, that's kind of that's kind of the

1001
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 2: situation where when when he'll make claims like this, his

1002
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:41,399
Speaker 2: colleagues will be like, well, Patrick probably showed him right,

1003
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 2: like because they are close and Patrick knows how to

1004
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:45,719
Speaker 2: do it, and maybe he did know how to do

1005
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 2: it because of Patrick. I'm not I'm not saying he's

1006
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 2: lying here. I'm just saying that like his now, he's

1007
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:52,480
Speaker 2: only been doing the job a couple of years, he

1008
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:55,320
Speaker 2: shouldn't be at that level. But because of his connection

1009
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:57,879
Speaker 2: to Patrick, a lot of stuff is possible that might

1010
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:01,239
Speaker 2: not otherwise be right. And it's the kind of thing

1011
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 2: where maybe he was exaggerating a bed again to get jobs.

1012
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:07,200
Speaker 2: If so, this is going to bite him in the ass,

1013
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:09,960
Speaker 2: because come two thousand and one, when there's an anthrax attack,

1014
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 2: you don't want to be one of the fifty to

1015
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 2: one hundred Americans who could credibly make the claim to

1016
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:17,759
Speaker 2: know I don't weaponize anthrax. Right. That becomes less of

1017
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:22,719
Speaker 2: a positive thing once someone's done it. So funny, Yeah,

1018
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:25,279
Speaker 2: In two thousand and one, Steven applied for a top

1019
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:27,840
Speaker 2: secret security clearance so that he could work at the CIA.

1020
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:30,400
Speaker 2: He had to take a polygraph test too, and that

1021
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:34,319
Speaker 2: apparently did not go, well, we don't know why. It's

1022
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:36,759
Speaker 2: the CIA. They don't just tell you stuff like that.

1023
00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:38,880
Speaker 2: It may have been that they uncovered some of the

1024
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:42,279
Speaker 2: same discrepancies that journalists latched onto in his background. Maybe

1025
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 2: it's just that the CIA looked into him and they

1026
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 2: found out, Oh, he's fibbed about a bunch of stuff,

1027
00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:50,240
Speaker 2: and that just doesn't work for us. We're the CIA.

1028
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 2: You know, you lie about certain things that the CIA,

1029
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:56,880
Speaker 2: but not that, right, we don't really know what happened.

1030
00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:59,040
Speaker 2: But they deny him, they turn him down, they won't

1031
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:01,439
Speaker 2: give him a top secrets security clearance, and in fact

1032
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:04,960
Speaker 2: they're denial. They don't just say no, they say no

1033
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:07,839
Speaker 2: and a bunch of other really mean shit. And it's

1034
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 2: such a serious denial that like this could fuck up

1035
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 2: his whole career because he's still working with sensitive information, right,

1036
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:19,320
Speaker 2: and it can. They say, basically, this guy can't be trusted,

1037
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:21,560
Speaker 2: He can't be trusted with a top secret clearance, and

1038
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:24,319
Speaker 2: maybe he shouldn't even have a security clearance at all.

1039
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 2: And in fact, soon after because he appeals the CIA's

1040
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:30,920
Speaker 2: decision and they turn him down again, and right after that,

1041
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:34,920
Speaker 2: the Department of Defense suspends his security clearance. So whatever

1042
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 2: the CIA found, whether it's that they just found out

1043
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:41,360
Speaker 2: that he had exaggerated or in there if they decided

1044
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 2: he had lied about his background, maybe that's why they

1045
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:46,920
Speaker 2: did it. Maybe there's something else we don't know that

1046
00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:49,319
Speaker 2: they find. But whatever it is they find, they are like,

1047
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:52,799
Speaker 2: not only can this guy not work with us, but

1048
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:55,960
Speaker 2: the DoD shouldn't be giving him any kind of security clearance.

1049
00:54:56,520 --> 00:54:59,360
Speaker 2: And this endangers his job at SAICE, it endangers the

1050
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:02,680
Speaker 2: job at his work with Usambord, and dangerous his whole career. Right,

1051
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 2: And this is all happening in two thousand and one, right,

1052
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:09,839
Speaker 2: right in the run up to nine to eleven. So

1053
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:12,239
Speaker 2: one of the last projects that he would start at

1054
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:15,280
Speaker 2: SAIIC before nine to eleven was an attempt to design

1055
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:20,319
Speaker 2: a fake mobile biowarfare production laboratory. Now this is one

1056
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:24,359
Speaker 2: of those things where so nine eleven hasn't happened yet.

1057
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:27,240
Speaker 2: But George W. Bush's president, right, and George W. Bush's

1058
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:31,840
Speaker 2: dad invaded Iraq and didn't go all the way. And

1059
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 2: there's a lot of argument to George W. Bush, was

1060
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:35,759
Speaker 2: he always going to invade Iraq? Would you've tried to

1061
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 2: do it? If nine to eleven hasn't happened. Well, this

1062
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:40,160
Speaker 2: is kind of a little this is like a little

1063
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:42,439
Speaker 2: bead in the he always wanted to do that thing,

1064
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:46,720
Speaker 2: because before nine eleven's happened, they're starting to train soldiers

1065
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:49,120
Speaker 2: with the expectation that we will have troops in the

1066
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:52,400
Speaker 2: Middle East again in a country where the leader is

1067
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:57,359
Speaker 2: suspected of having chemical and biological weapons of mass destruction Iraq, Right,

1068
00:55:57,840 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 2: And so the military is like, we need someone to

1069
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:03,800
Speaker 2: build a fake mobile bioweapons lab that we can train

1070
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:06,239
Speaker 2: troops on so that they can see what one would

1071
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:08,640
Speaker 2: look like and know how to recognize it and know

1072
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 2: what to do when they find one. Because definitely Saddam

1073
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 2: has a bunch of mobile bioweapons labs for sure. Right,

1074
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:19,080
Speaker 2: He's for sure got the same kind of bioweapons capability

1075
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:21,280
Speaker 2: that we do. We just haven't found it yet.

1076
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:21,640
Speaker 3: Right.

1077
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 2: And there's a dark humor in the fact that the

1078
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:28,040
Speaker 2: US government pays Steve Hatwell to design a mobile WMD

1079
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:32,719
Speaker 2: production facility that Saddam Hussein did not have in order

1080
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 2: to train US soldiers that they could recognize the facility

1081
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:39,000
Speaker 2: if they wound out in Iraq, even though their government

1082
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:41,480
Speaker 2: was the only one with the resources to build one, right,

1083
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:46,320
Speaker 2: and Hatfill dutifully builds a lab into an eighteen wheeler

1084
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:48,520
Speaker 2: trailer and he fills it with old lab equipment. Now,

1085
00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:51,239
Speaker 2: it was never operational, nor was it meant to be.

1086
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:55,080
Speaker 2: But again, when the anthrax attacks hit, and it becomes

1087
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:58,520
Speaker 2: clear very soon after the anthrax attacks that the anthrax

1088
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:03,720
Speaker 2: either came direct from a military stockpile or was made

1089
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 2: by somebody who utilized the same techniques that we did

1090
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:10,839
Speaker 2: to make weaponized anthrax. This is also going to look

1091
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:13,440
Speaker 2: really wait, you built like a mobile lab, you know

1092
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:15,040
Speaker 2: how to just like build a lab and stick it

1093
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 2: in a truck and make anthrax with it. Okay, maybe

1094
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 2: you're on the list right the CIA. Yeah, so nine

1095
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 2: to eleven happens, and that's where the episode's going to end.

1096
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 2: With nine to eleven. Uh, you know, because after nine

1097
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:32,520
Speaker 2: to eleven, not long after, we're going to get the

1098
00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:35,960
Speaker 2: anthrax attacks and Steve's life is going to change dramatically

1099
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:37,760
Speaker 2: for the worst. But I think we've set up the

1100
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:41,280
Speaker 2: dominoes of like why this guy is going to wind

1101
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:44,080
Speaker 2: up in the crosshairs of the media and federal law

1102
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:45,280
Speaker 2: enforcement over this?

1103
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:48,680
Speaker 1: Like, well, fuck, I'm going.

1104
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:51,360
Speaker 3: To be chomping at the bit to figure out what happened?

1105
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 3: Is Stephen how he got into the Trump administration?

1106
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:58,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, all of these things are like, yes, love.

1107
00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:03,960
Speaker 2: That rest part three, but first want to plug your pluggables.

1108
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:06,440
Speaker 1: You guys. I wrote a book.

1109
00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 5: It's coming to an age memoir. It's called Girl Gone Wild.

1110
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 5: I alternate between thinking it's.

1111
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:17,360
Speaker 3: Uh, totally embarrassing that I did it, and that it's awesome.

1112
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:21,360
Speaker 3: And so you decide you order it and decide.

1113
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:26,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, you decide we report something or other like that. Anyway,

1114
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:31,520
Speaker 2: everybody just been Behind the Bastards until next week or

1115
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:35,880
Speaker 2: wherever until the next episode, I don't know, go away.

1116
00:58:39,080 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 6: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1117
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:44,760
Speaker 6: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

1118
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:48,800
Speaker 6: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1119
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:52,040
Speaker 6: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the

1120
00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:56,120
Speaker 6: Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday

1121
00:58:56,200 --> 00:58:59,840
Speaker 6: and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash

1122
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:03,680
Speaker 6: at Behind the Bastards