1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: Ridiculous Histories, a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show, 2 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much for 3 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: tuning in. Let's hear it for the man, the myth 4 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 1: Legend super producer, mister Max Williams. Look, guys, this is 5 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: in media arrests. We're coming to you right at the 6 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: halfway point of a fascinating conversation with none other than 7 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: our goodpal aj Bahamas Jacobs. 8 00:00:52,800 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 2: Indeed, why don't we just join the conversation already in progress. 9 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: We're building out this concept, this ancient idea of headdress, 10 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: right visual signification of something like success or authority, what 11 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:16,960 Speaker 1: we would call a modern parlance, a flex, and that 12 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: leads us to one thing we have to get to 13 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: before we travel further down the body of ridiculous fashion trends. 14 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: Toll wigs like big big old wigs big old. 15 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 3: In fact, the phrase big wig is derived from the 16 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 3: fact that people who had who were higher on the 17 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 3: socioeconomic scale, had the big the bigger the wig, the 18 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 3: bigger the bank account. I guess so yes. But the 19 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 3: wigs were also incredibly vertical and reached heights of four feet. 20 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 3: And this I'd say, the height of yeah, this is 21 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 3: I mean, it was especially crazy during the lead up 22 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 3: to the French Revolution. The famous Marie Antoinette, she was 23 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 3: kind of the They would have these wigs that were 24 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 3: made of wire. You needed wire because they were so big, 25 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 3: but you needed horse hair and human hair, beef fat 26 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 3: to keep it all in play, hollows maybe a little talely, yeah, delicious. 27 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:31,239 Speaker 3: You had powder like powder from wheat and white rice. 28 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 3: And this, by the way, was when the peasants were starving, 29 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 3: so this was not very beloved when uh, you know, 30 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 3: she's using food in her wig instead of in their stomach. 31 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 3: But these they became crazy tall. It was sort of 32 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 3: like a you know, like the arms race, who can 33 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 3: get the highest who? And they were so tall they 34 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 3: would have to stick their heads out the window of 35 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 3: the carriage. They would have to be very careful chandeliers. 36 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 3: People's head caught on fire. And they had not just 37 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 3: the hair, but they had all sorts of things in them. 38 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 3: They had feathers, flowers, taxidermied birds. To go back to 39 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 3: our first hat shop. Nothing a battleship, a replica replica 40 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 3: of a French battleship. Marie Antoinette was famous for that. 41 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 4: Uh. 42 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 3: And of course a lot of insects because you had 43 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 3: the beef tallow and it was just the delicious. 44 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: So the insects a non consensual ornamentation. 45 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 2: That's right. 46 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 3: They were meant to be there, but they added to 47 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 3: the fun. 48 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: And gosh, I love your locust contessa. Yeah, I love you. 49 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: I love your cat. 50 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 3: Your hair is moving around so interesting, so active. 51 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 4: Yeah. 52 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 3: But yes, so this literally was one of the complaints 53 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 3: that led to the French Revolution. People didn't have anything 54 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 3: to eat. I mean, this is I guess the Lady 55 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 3: Gaga and her meat dress really would have pissed them off. 56 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 4: Oh gosh, this idea. 57 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 3: Of these ridiculously tall wigs were just such an obvious 58 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 3: status marker that would enrage the lower class. And they 59 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 3: paid for it. They paid for it, they sure did. 60 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, someone took something off the top. 61 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 3: Right, exactly more than just. 62 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 1: A wig, more than just a wig, right. And this 63 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: leads us to I think another another important trend that 64 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: we have to talk about. I was speaking years ago 65 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 1: with a friend of ours, good friend of the show 66 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: Holly Fry from Stuff You Missed in History class, and 67 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: in our conversation we noted that quite a few of 68 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: the fashion trends, regardless where they lay on the spectrum, 69 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: Quite a few of the fashion trend for women and 70 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: female identifying people were incredibly painful and inconvenient and literally 71 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: bad for you. Like a far example of that would 72 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 1: be footbinding. But there's a lot more to that. 73 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 2: Store, just corsets and all of that stuff just constricting 74 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 2: your movements and just like the idea of suffering for fashion, 75 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 2: you know. 76 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, Court, let's dive into corsets. And I will say, 77 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,119 Speaker 3: for my year of living constitutionally, I tried to dress 78 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 3: the part, so I had to wear the hat, which 79 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 3: was not so bad. Socks were kind of a pain 80 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 3: in the ass or painted like because they didn't have elastic, 81 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 3: so you had to wear these little sock belts. And 82 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 3: so the amount of time I spent putting on sock belts, 83 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:48,679 Speaker 3: I'll never get that back. But I had it easy 84 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 3: because my wife was nice enough that she occasionally dressed 85 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 3: up and she had to put on these stays, which 86 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 3: were sort of proto corsets, and she hated them. I mean, 87 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 3: who wouldn't. They are, like, you know, they're constricting, They're 88 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 3: like boa constrictors around your waist and some of these corsets, 89 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 3: it was a trend that was around in the seventeen 90 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 3: hundreds eighteen hundreds, and they just got more and more 91 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 3: constricting and unpleasant. They were made from all sorts of 92 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 3: horrible things like whalebone and metal, and by the end 93 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 3: they would squeeze the woman's waist to thirteen inches around. 94 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 3: That is crazy, Like I'm doing my fing It's like 95 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 3: an eggo waffle and yea, it is just disturbing. Now. Thankfully, 96 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 3: not everyone was like, oh, this is wonderful. You had 97 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 3: a lot of backlash from sort of proto feminists, early feminists, 98 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 3: and also doctors who said it was dangerous and newspaper people. 99 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 3: Eighteen ninety one, the Chicago Tribune said the tight lacing 100 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 3: has produced generations of invalids and bequeathed to posterity suffering 101 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 3: that will not vanish for many decades. Generational suffering. 102 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 4: That's what I'll not pass from the earth exactly. 103 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: It could impede just basic day to day function when 104 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: you get down to thirteen inches in diameter, that's just 105 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 1: people don't walk away from that, you know it now, 106 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 1: even after you take off the corset. 107 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 3: Super painful and you would have to wear increasingly small 108 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 3: coursets until you got to that size, and you'd have 109 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 3: people pulling. You've seen in the old movies, people pulling 110 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 3: on the. 111 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: Store, the foot of the lower back of the second 112 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: person helping you strap it up. 113 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 3: I mean that was real. That was real, and I 114 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 3: one of the there were all these dress reform movements. 115 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 3: One in the French Revolution, rational dress, they called it. 116 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 3: Another in Victorian times you might have heard of bloomers bloomers, 117 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 3: so bloomers were part of the rational dress movement where 118 00:07:55,760 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 3: women were trying to find and bloomers were original. Is 119 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 3: sort of like hammer pants for women, like the parachute pants, 120 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:13,559 Speaker 3: parachute pants basically, and they were mocked relentlessly by the press, 121 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 3: so they never really caught on. But that was just 122 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 3: one of the ways that they were trying to fight 123 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 3: this this corporal punishment that women were like, and not 124 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 3: just during the day, they'd have to wear them at 125 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 3: night so that they would train their waste. 126 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 4: That's just it's okay. 127 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: It sounds crazy and intensely disturbing for a lot of 128 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:41,319 Speaker 1: us listening along in twenty twenty five. We do know, however, 129 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: that again this was not the only painful thing people 130 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 1: subjected themselves to in the in the chase of being 131 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: the most fashionable one. Look, I don't know how painful 132 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: these are, ag but one thing a lot lot of 133 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: people in the US remember from their grade school history 134 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: days is that whatever you saw a picture of a 135 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: fancy or important person in Elizabethan times, unless they were 136 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: a member of a church or like a religious official, 137 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: they had an inexplicable rough like a white collar. They 138 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: just like went around like somebody took a pin a 139 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: cupcake wrapper and just pop them in so that their 140 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: head looked like the cupcake. 141 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 3: I love that description. Yeah, I often think they remind 142 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 3: me of what my dog had to wear after getting 143 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 3: Now I will say, I just want to make one 144 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 3: note in general, which is that from our point of view, 145 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 3: a lot of these fashion trends are ridiculous, and some 146 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 3: are genuinely harmful, like the corset. But I do want 147 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,680 Speaker 3: like to do a mental experiment. Imagine someone in the 148 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 3: future is like in school if they still have those 149 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 3: reading about twentieth or twenty first century American fashion, and 150 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 3: they would read about how these men would spend hundreds 151 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 3: of dollars a year on this thin strip of colored 152 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 3: cloth that hung around the neck and required elaborate loops, 153 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 3: serve no purpose. 154 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 4: A crevass. 155 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 3: You say it is a cravas. We're a necktie, right, 156 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 3: So yeah, we shouldn't be two cock I mean our 157 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 3: or crocs. Can you imagine what people will say about crocs. 158 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 3: I love crocs. I know that that's a functional shoe. 159 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 2: It's it. 160 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 3: I wear it. I wear Camo ones, so I look 161 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 3: really cool and military. 162 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: I love this point because a little while back, fascinated 163 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 1: by the same thing that you're mentioning there, we did 164 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 1: a ridiculous history episode on the evolution of the necktie. 165 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 4: Oh and like so. 166 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: Many things, it began with function, basic function. Yeah it 167 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: was it was military dress, right, But then aristocrats of 168 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 1: well to do people may have seen some of that 169 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: military dress. That boy is like a functional scarf, you 170 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: know what I mean, right, And then they said let's 171 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: all start doing that, and it just accelerated. And now 172 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: in certain I love that you mentioned this. In certain 173 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 1: aspects of us or Western society. Even today, if you 174 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: go to a place above a certain social echalon, you 175 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: have to not only practice this weird conspiracy of neckties, 176 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: but you have to have specific ones like Noel saying 177 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: a cravat or you know, a tuxedo party, a black 178 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:44,559 Speaker 1: and white party, and if you don't participate in the silliness, 179 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: then you're not at the top. 180 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 3: Now, wait, what is a cravat versus a necktie? I'm 181 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 3: not sure. I know. 182 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: Well, it's really good. I would say it goes down 183 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,079 Speaker 1: more to the knot like a cravat is going to 184 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: be a little more loosely nodded. 185 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 3: Interesting, Oh yeah, that makes sense. 186 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, and then you got the you know, the windsor 187 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: and whatnot for your typical day trader tie. 188 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 3: Right, And one other tie question was was there any 189 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 3: truth to that it was a napkin? 190 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 4: At one point I would say. 191 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: I would say there is, from what we found in 192 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:21,439 Speaker 1: our research, there is robbable partial truth to that because 193 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:25,679 Speaker 1: the military members that were wearing these as scarves when 194 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: they're in the field, they're using it as a catch 195 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: all things sort of like the the towel in Douglas 196 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: Adams works, you know what I mean, So they always 197 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: have you know, they have a washcloth. Now they can 198 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 1: maybe try to strain water, stop wounds, and then if 199 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: they're eating, you know, clean their faces up because they 200 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 1: were probably they were probably beardy, right, who has time 201 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: to shave? 202 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 3: Well, I love that. I mean now I think it's 203 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 3: actually very useful because it's you can't lose it. You 204 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 3: can't lose the tie. So if we go back to 205 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 3: using it as a napkin and a towel, then maybe 206 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 3: that would make sense. But anyway, you did bring up 207 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 3: these crazy white collars that they had in Elizabethan times. 208 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 1: Which were not napkins. 209 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 3: They were not napkins. They were purely ornamental, although I 210 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 3: imagine they did catch food so you could like save 211 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 3: them for later. But they were like they were called ruffs, 212 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 3: and the biggest ones where they made of six yards 213 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 3: of cloth, that's a lot of cloth, and they would 214 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 3: they would fold them in these little pleats up to 215 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,559 Speaker 3: six hundred pleats. They would go out like eight inches 216 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 3: from your neck and they were just absolutely absurd and 217 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 3: even people at the time thought that they were absurd, 218 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 3: and including religious people. Preachers called them the tools of Satan. 219 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:58,199 Speaker 3: One preacher, one preacher said, the devil, in the fullness 220 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 3: of his malice first and invented ruffs. So yeah, and 221 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 3: they were sort of again a class distinguisher. The richer 222 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 3: you were, the bigger, you're rough, and they were banned. 223 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 3: The Puritans hated them, of course, but they were also 224 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 3: banned by King Philip of Spain, who was trying to 225 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 3: reduce the power of the nobles. There were colored ruffs 226 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 3: that were very controversial. There was a famous woman who 227 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 3: was convicted of murder in sixteen thirteen and she was 228 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 3: alleged to have invented the yellow ruff, which was like 229 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 3: even more offensive than the white ruff. 230 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 2: Can I just say that I'm a little bit of 231 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 2: a conundrum. I am afraid of birds, but I have 232 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 2: in the last year or two become very fond of 233 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 2: the board game Wingspan, which is a bird based strategy 234 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 2: game and it's a lot of fun. Highly recommend it. 235 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 2: But there are these cards that are different birds and 236 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 2: tells you little details about them. And there is a 237 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 2: bird called a rouff. And the question occurred to me 238 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 2: that has this plumy thing around its neck. What came first, 239 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 2: the rough the bird or the rough the fashion trend? 240 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 2: And I'm trying to figure that out. And the Internet 241 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 2: is very confused about this, and the one Guardian article 242 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 2: that seems to fully go into it is behind a 243 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 2: paywall and I can't get to it, so we'll just 244 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 2: have to chicken or the egg that for now. 245 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 3: So to speak, to use a bird metaphor. Indeed, nicely done. Well, 246 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 3: that is fast, and I have heard great things about 247 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 3: that game. I actually bought it and I spent like 248 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 3: two hours reading the instructions and I still don't know 249 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 3: how to play. 250 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 1: One is just when you get down, when you get 251 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 1: over this way, or when we're up that way, let's 252 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: just make it night, all right. 253 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:42,479 Speaker 3: Absolutely. 254 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 2: I have the expansion, the Eastern European Expansion with the 255 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 2: nectar and everything. It is one of those games AJ 256 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 2: where it has quite the learning curve, but once you 257 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 2: push yourself over it, it is so rewarding in such 258 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 2: a zen lovely game. And it's a less of a 259 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 2: competitive game and more of like a kind of let's 260 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 2: all just hang out and be part of this ecosystem 261 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 2: together kind of game. 262 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 3: Love it. Yeah, I've heard you. I've heard it from many, 263 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 3: including people who actually do like birds. 264 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: Imagine how much they like it as Yeah, yeah, all 265 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: about it. We Also, I have one question, going back 266 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: to what we were saying AJ about ruffs. Does it 267 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: not a question for the group. Am I a dummy 268 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: for Like the first time I saw a rouff, I 269 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 1: assumed it looked like there was a connecting piece that 270 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: would go over it. I didn't think it would be 271 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: possible for people to wear just this gaudy circle of 272 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: fabric without you know, some other like. 273 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 3: Attachment, like like a space helmet. 274 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: Like a space helmet. Yes, just so anachronisms society. That's 275 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 1: kind of what I was thinking. I was like, maybe 276 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: a plague helmet or something. You know, maybe they just 277 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: want to look ready. But as we have learned, and 278 00:16:54,680 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: as your research shows, this was entirely to end Kate's status. 279 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 3: This was not functional, and you did you did need wires, 280 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 3: like it couldn't just maybe that's the prob It couldn't 281 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 3: just hold its shape by itself like the wigs, like 282 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 3: some of the huge crazy dresses. They needed metal support. 283 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: Absolutely, okay, all right, And I love the tools of Satan. 284 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 1: I love how it sounds like one Satan is real 285 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: and then two was having like a slow week. It 286 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: was kind of just sort of out of ideas at 287 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 1: four point thirty on a Friday, and said no silly collars. 288 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: That's why silly collars is the new malice, torture. 289 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 3: You've got murder and these big collars. I do love 290 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 3: what they condemned as satanic. I remember doing a history 291 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:55,199 Speaker 3: of utensils, like eating utensils and the forks. I remember 292 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 3: where the Puritans they hated the forks as the tool 293 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 3: of the devil. Again, the devil. 294 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: So it's just like knife, spoon, hand. 295 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, like God gave you hands for a reason. That 296 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 3: was his argument in the sermon, God gave you hands. 297 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:15,439 Speaker 3: I guess he liked Ethiopian food. 298 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 4: There we go, Yeah, I get. 299 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 1: Some TIBs and so what's that amazing bread in Jira? 300 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I don't remember the name. 301 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: That's the you know, like the yeah, oh man, we 302 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: should go to an Ethiopian restaurant and then play wingspan. 303 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:33,719 Speaker 3: That's what God wants us to do. 304 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: It's what God wants us to do. And as we 305 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: are further exploring ridiculous clothing trends of yesteryear, we're moving 306 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 1: down the body and then we're going to something that 307 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 1: remains a hot button issue for a lot of people today. 308 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 1: Shoes like hats can wax and wane in the world 309 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:59,360 Speaker 1: of fashion rights. As you noted and anybody, any cinophile 310 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 1: can see in you know, like the Golden Age of 311 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 1: Hollywood and you know, other earlier iterations of fashion. It 312 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: was common for guys to wear hats. It was considered 313 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: kind of low and working class if you didn't have 314 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 1: a hat. But no matter how ephemeral fashion can seem, 315 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,359 Speaker 1: people always need shoes, right, most of the time. 316 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 3: You need shoes, absolutely, and those shoes can become ridiculous. 317 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 3: To use an appropriate word, they can get they can. 318 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 4: We invented that word. We coined it. 319 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:37,120 Speaker 3: Can you believe it nicely done? I've I've been found 320 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 3: it very useful. Yeah, either in height or in length, 321 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:46,400 Speaker 3: these shoes seem to have grown in different ways. Height Wise, 322 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 3: there were the probably the height no pun intended of 323 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 3: the he was the chopines. I believe I'm prodicing that correctly. 324 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 3: So this was around Shakespeare's time, sixteenth century. It was 325 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 3: in Europe, especially Italy, and these were women's shoes that 326 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 3: were elevated. And if you go and google the images, 327 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 3: they're hilarious because they grew and grew and grew. Originally 328 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 3: it was to keep the shoes out of the mud, 329 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 3: and they would have these little platforms of wood, but 330 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,399 Speaker 3: they grew to be like almost two feet tall, like 331 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 3: twenty inches. They were like stilts. They were wood and 332 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 3: cork and velvet, and these women were walking on stilts 333 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,360 Speaker 3: and they needed a cane or they needed a servant, 334 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 3: because you can't just walk around on two foot tall 335 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 3: stilts unless you're a circus performer. And they led to 336 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 3: a lot of of course, injuries and spills. They were 337 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 3: mocked by Shakespeare himself who said in Hamlet, he said 338 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 3: that the shopine was near made women near to heaven 339 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 3: altitude of the chopine, which is sort of like the 340 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 3: higher the hair, the closer to God, sort of that. 341 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 3: And eventually they caused a backlash as well. The Puritans, 342 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 3: of course, hated them tools of the devil. 343 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: Think, hang, I'm going to stop us here real quick, 344 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: because from what you're describing about these Puritan folks, they. 345 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 4: Seem kind of uncool, not great. 346 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: Or like very strict. 347 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 3: They are tough, Yes, they have their pros and cons. 348 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 3: I probably wouldn't want to be a Puritan, but uh. 349 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 1: Because you're so you're super into forks, right, it's just 350 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: love it. 351 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 3: And I love high heels and ruffs. But yeah, I 352 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 3: mean the good part is they were very against the 353 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 3: corruption of the Church of England and all of that, 354 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:56,199 Speaker 3: so they had that going for them. They didn't like, uh, 355 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 3: or at least some of them hated monarchy. I'm not 356 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 3: a big fan of manarchy, so you know, everyone has 357 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,640 Speaker 3: their pros and cons, but I probably would not want 358 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 3: to party with them on a Saturday night. 359 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think they probably also would find parties 360 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: as a concept ungodly and evil. 361 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:18,159 Speaker 4: But then you know, yeah, there are. 362 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: Strong reasons to object to monarchies. We're with you on 363 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 1: that one. Just as a concept, it's a weird idea. 364 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 1: And this leads us to one of the most glamorous, 365 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 1: one of the most diva esque, one of the most 366 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: extra monarchs in European history, a guy humbly called Louis, Yes. 367 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:44,400 Speaker 3: King Louis the fourteenth. He was the Sun King, right, 368 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 3: wasn't that him? He was self. 369 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: Proclaimed super humble dude, super right. 370 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 3: Super humble, and one example of his humility is that 371 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 3: he didn't want anyone taller than him. He didn't want 372 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 3: no one could wear heels that were higher than his heels, 373 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 3: and also red heels. He was banned those for some reason. 374 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 3: It reminds me of Actually there was a friend of mine. 375 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 3: I've never been to this party, but apparently a friend 376 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 3: of mine threw a party where everyone was required to 377 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 3: be the same height, so you sent in your height 378 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,679 Speaker 3: before the party, and he would provide these little platform 379 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 3: stilt shoes so that everyone was the same eye level 380 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 3: with the tallest person. I love that idea. I think 381 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 3: that's really interesting. How would that change social dynamics? But 382 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 3: King Louis the fourteenth would not throw or attend that party. 383 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:42,719 Speaker 3: That's my point. That's why I brought it up. It 384 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 3: just seems so. 385 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: It seems so unnecessarily weird to say, Like, imagine if 386 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 1: you were the president of a country and you say, 387 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: I like Air Jordan's and no one else can have them, 388 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Like, that's bad for the 389 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: Nike company, This is weird for the folks making the cobblers, 390 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:12,199 Speaker 1: making King Louis shoes. And it sounds like, again, as 391 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: you maintained earlier, there are some reasons that the French revolted. 392 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 3: Right, And there's a hole that actually is a phrase 393 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 3: called sumptuary laws, which you've probably heard of. Yeah, the 394 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:30,919 Speaker 3: laws that ban certain clothes and sometimes there because they 395 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,199 Speaker 3: it's a religious band, so that you don't look to 396 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 3: you don't look you're not too much like a peacock, 397 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 3: you have humility. But sometimes it's the powerful people saying 398 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,640 Speaker 3: only we can wear these clothes and that you had 399 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 3: a lot with the color purple actually was banned in Rome, 400 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 3: and I think in England only the nobles were allowed 401 00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 3: to wear the color purple because yeah, don't want these 402 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 3: peasants to upstage you with their colorful fashion. 403 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, and there is I hate the devil's advocate here, 404 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: but we could argue in sumptuary laws back in that time, 405 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,120 Speaker 1: we could argue that there was a serious state concern 406 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: that people dressed a certain way might be able to 407 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: impersonate an authority figure. 408 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 3: Right there you go. 409 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: So there's a feels so weird to defend what I 410 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: think is just a cartoonish policy. But maybe maybe that 411 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: was it because not everybody had the internet, right okay, sorry, 412 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,879 Speaker 1: fact check us. Before the email, no one had the 413 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: internet technically the truth, they just had the town crier. 414 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: They had the town crier. That's an excellent point. Yeah, 415 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 1: they had the guy who would run out and say, some. 416 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 4: People are wearing purple. 417 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: I picture I picture the town crier always, you know, 418 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: I I know we all have this this trope of 419 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,679 Speaker 1: some guy going here, ye hear ye, But I always 420 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: like to think of the town crier as just like 421 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: a grizzled early nineteen eighties comedian. 422 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,719 Speaker 4: You know, he's in the South Square. He's like, stand up, 423 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 4: that's it's really true. 424 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: Be here, Max. He's like, USh, what else? Okay? Check 425 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: this scroll? And he's like, yeah, the plague. 426 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 4: Huh? 427 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 3: You ever noticed that the play? You haven't noticed. That's 428 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,120 Speaker 3: a great point. They were the first stand up comedians. 429 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 4: Love it. 430 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 1: I mean, they probably had a high turnover rate depending 431 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: on their material. 432 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 4: But we do know. 433 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: These sumptuary laws are are things that can be found 434 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: continuing in some places today. Sometimes there might be a 435 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,920 Speaker 1: hard law against it, but then I would argue often 436 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 1: we talked Nolan, I talked about this a little bit 437 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 1: a while a while ago. Often they're these sort of 438 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: social agreements that are not legally enforceable on what is 439 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: or is not considered a costume versus regular clothing, Like 440 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 1: we're wearing tricorn hats now, and if we got together 441 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: and we walked out to you know, just go hang 442 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: out in a public park, people would assume that we 443 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 1: are having a party with a theme, or that we 444 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 1: are like filming a music video or something. So do 445 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 1: you see sumptuary laws continuing into the future. 446 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 3: Well, first of all, that's a great point. I am 447 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 3: very grateful for my tricorn hat because as part of 448 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 3: my year of living constitutionally, I also bore a musket. 449 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 3: And if I had borne a musket without my hat, 450 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 3: I think I would have been arrested and throwned. But 451 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:49,200 Speaker 3: people were like, oh, he's just dressing up. Well I think, however, 452 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 3: you define saw. 453 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: The gun and then they saw the hat, and the 454 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:53,399 Speaker 1: cops said, ah. 455 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 4: Let's keep going. 456 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 3: Exactly, I would say, I mean there, as you said, 457 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 3: there's always going to be laws about what people can 458 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:06,439 Speaker 3: and cannot wear, Like you can't you can't just go 459 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 3: out and wear you know, nothing, for instance, even in 460 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 3: modern day America, that's uh, there are laws against that, 461 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 3: obscenity laws, and they're probably it's sort of like the 462 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,439 Speaker 3: First Amendment. There there's gonna be exceptions. There's always going 463 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 3: to be exceptions. And although I will say that was 464 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 3: the final chapter in our history of ridiculous clothing, is 465 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 3: just that no clothing at all. Yeah, the naturist movement 466 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 3: to be a little more what they like to call themselves. 467 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 3: But I was fascinated and I only learned this while 468 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 3: researching the First Amendment. But one of the big cases 469 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 3: of First Amendment rights, and this was when the ACLU 470 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:07,959 Speaker 3: was just starting, was nudism. There were all these people 471 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 3: in New York City who were nudists, and they weren't 472 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 3: hippie dippy. They were in fact, they were more Marxists. 473 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 3: They were socialists, and they believed that clothing was an 474 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 3: oppressive capitalists conspiracy because. 475 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 4: I could get behind that agree. You know. 476 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 3: Well, they said, you know, the rich people can afford 477 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 3: clothing and differentiate themselves. So the solution is get rid 478 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 3: of clothes. That's the solution. And the ACLU went all 479 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 3: in and supported them in there in several court cases 480 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 3: in favor of nudism. So that is and I think 481 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 3: that still remains something that they're case built. 482 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 2: You know. I think that it's such an interesting kind 483 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 2: of protest because it represents a lot of things, Like, 484 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 2: on the one hand, it seems to be a strike 485 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 2: against kind of puritanical ideas and sort of body shaming 486 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 2: notions and the idea of like, you know, our naked 487 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 2: human forms being somehow unclean or you know, against God 488 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 2: or whatever, even though you know God supposedly, if he exists, 489 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 2: created this, why is this such a horrible thing? So 490 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 2: I think that's interesting because it's striking out against sort 491 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 2: of oppressive fashion notions and the idea of only being 492 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 2: considered an active member or a I guess, upstanding member 493 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 2: of society if you dress the part. But it also 494 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 2: strikes out against this idea of like our bodies being 495 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 2: something to be ashamed of. I mean, maybe I'm overthinking it, 496 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 2: but I know it's interesting. 497 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 3: I mean, it's variant, and in fact, this swayed me 498 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 3: more towards the side of nudism. In the nineteen thirties, 499 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 3: the Nazis in Germany went on a campaign against nudism 500 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 3: because it threatened the morality of the voke and it 501 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 3: deadened women's natural feelings of shame that nice, and destroyed 502 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 3: men's respect for women. So uh, And they wanted to 503 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 3: destroy it because it was sort of a socialist Marxist movement. 504 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 3: But listen, if the Nazis were against it, maybe there's 505 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 3: something to it. 506 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 4: I think that's true. 507 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 1: Nazis are against it in general. I think we should 508 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 1: be for it. It'll call me bias, but I don't 509 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: think they were great. Uh. This also, this is something 510 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: that we can all learn more about in Aj Bahamas 511 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: Jacob's newest book, The Year of Living Naked. 512 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 3: Right, that's it exactly, I'm doing it now. Let me 513 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 3: take off my shirt. 514 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 4: Constitution Year of Living Naked. Incredible, incredible. 515 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 1: I hope you do most of your research in the summer, right, 516 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 1: just for weather purposes. 517 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 3: That's true. Mann's a lot. Well, that's why I'll be 518 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 3: visiting Atlanta a lot. 519 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 4: Yes, please do. 520 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: And in the meantime, Aj, this is likely going to 521 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: be a two part series. We cannot thank you enough 522 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 1: for joining us on Ridiculous history this week. One of 523 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: the big themes that you taught us this week that 524 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 1: we can all agree on is that fashion is a conversation, 525 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 1: and perhaps the most important point is that we must 526 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 1: be hesitant to dunk on fashion of yesteryear too hard, 527 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 1: because history proves we're about ten days or ten years 528 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 1: away from all the stuff we like being made fun 529 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 1: of on shows like. 530 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 3: This exactly, and maybe not even like crocs. For instance, 531 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 3: you were. I think people are mocking it even as 532 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 3: we speak. But yeah, no, listen, I love being on 533 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 3: your show no matter what I'm wearing, whether it's or 534 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,479 Speaker 3: if I'm wearing nothing at all, you provide such a 535 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 3: delight full product. Can I call it a product? 536 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 4: For a podcast product? 537 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 2: I love that it's a cork and can I just 538 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 2: say I think I said this off Mike, but you 539 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 2: make Thursday feel like Friday, A friend. 540 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 3: My goodness, that is well, thank god it's Thursday. I'm 541 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 3: sure right t G. 542 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:23,959 Speaker 1: I t a prodcast uh a j before we before 543 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: you hop out for further adventures. Where can people learn 544 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 1: more about your work? 545 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 3: Well, there's the Puddler podcast with guests such as the 546 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 3: one Michael and Black. Yes he was one, but but 547 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,959 Speaker 3: I was mentioning. I was going to mention Ben Bowen, 548 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 3: Noel Brown of our favorites. 549 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 4: Flattery will get you somewhere. 550 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 3: But yeah, I'm on. I have website a J Jacobs 551 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 3: dot com. Oh, I have a substack. So that's end 552 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 3: to me. 553 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 4: What a substack is? 554 00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 2: It? Is? It just like a like a gussied up 555 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 2: male lists. There we bringing back the nailing list exactly. 556 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 3: It's a newsletter, but just called the substack. And you're 557 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 3: supposed if I were a good substacker, I would make 558 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 3: people pay for my stuff, and substack doesn't like me 559 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 3: because I'm I'm not aggressive enough with my sale. I 560 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 3: give it all away for free. 561 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 2: On the contrary, well that makes you an excellent substacker. 562 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:20,800 Speaker 2: You're a substacker for the people. 563 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:22,280 Speaker 1: Substacker for the people. 564 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, like the nudists, I'm a socialist SUBSCT officer. 565 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,720 Speaker 1: I'm naked for the people right now. 566 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,760 Speaker 4: And weirdly, substack is also a euphemism for the penis. 567 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 3: There you go, There you go. 568 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 4: That's all I got said. 569 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,439 Speaker 1: Of course, we can't thank you enough for joining us today. 570 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,400 Speaker 1: Also big thanks to our super producer mister Max Williams. 571 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,879 Speaker 1: Big thanks to It's weird because we usually shout you out. 572 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 4: In the credits. 573 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 1: Believe that right now we're so thirsty, So big banks. 574 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:58,880 Speaker 1: Also to our our composer Alex Williams, Jonathan Strickland ak 575 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 1: the quist or Hey no, it will be interesting to 576 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 1: get those guys together. 577 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:03,720 Speaker 4: Can you imagine? 578 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,040 Speaker 2: It would open up a black hole time and space, 579 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 2: a rifts suck us all into our death. Now I 580 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,240 Speaker 2: think it would be fun and worth testing because as. 581 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,360 Speaker 1: Nice and Jonathan Strickland aka the Quist is. 582 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 4: He's a real grouch. Do like I had just stopped 583 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,840 Speaker 4: on that. It's okay, it's okay. I'll say it for 584 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:23,359 Speaker 4: both of them. 585 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,279 Speaker 2: Hughes Taks Chris Frosciotis and he's Jeff Coats, both here 586 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 2: in spirit as perty usual. Let's see what you got 587 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,360 Speaker 2: your buddy, Rachel big Spinach Lance underwater. 588 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 4: That's true, that's true. We need to bring her back. 589 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:37,360 Speaker 4: She's so cool. Have you heard about this person? 590 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 2: Aj she's an underwater explosions expert what not that she 591 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 2: makes them, but she studies the history of them, and she, 592 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 2: I believe wrote a book about the Hunley, the Civil 593 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 2: War era submarine and the sinking thereof that Clive Custler 594 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 2: was so fascinated with. 595 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 3: No, okay, I'm a real class expert. Yeah, but you've 596 00:35:58,040 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 3: had her on right. 597 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,759 Speaker 4: I'm gonna listen one once. And yet we thank her 598 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 4: at the end. 599 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 1: Of every episode because the fame got you her. No, No, 600 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:10,360 Speaker 1: we're kidding, and also ridiculous historians joined us. Next week 601 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 1: we have we have even uh more stuff to check 602 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,400 Speaker 1: out with you in the meantime, tune into the Puzzler 603 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 1: and Noel. 604 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 4: Thanks to you Man, Dang you as well, Buddy. We'll 605 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:21,240 Speaker 4: see you next time, folks. 606 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:31,880 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 607 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.