Speaker 1: Hey guys, Saga and Crystal here.
Speaker 2: Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election,
Speaker 2: and we are so excited about what that means for
Speaker 2: the future of the show.
Speaker 1: This is the only place where you can find honest
Speaker 1: perspectives from the left and the right that simply does
Speaker 1: not exist anywhere else.
Speaker 2: So if that is something that's important to you, please
Speaker 2: go to Breakingpoints dot com. Become a member today and
Speaker 2: you'll get access to our full shows, unedited, ad free,
Speaker 2: and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.
Speaker 1: We need your help to build the future of independent
Speaker 1: news media and we hope to see you at Breakingpoints
Speaker 1: dot com.
Speaker 3: A huge congratulations to Larry Ellison. The data center build
Speaker 3: out and the AI boom has a vaulted him. We
Speaker 3: can put up this first elements involved in the third
Speaker 3: richest man in the world. You know, I love it
Speaker 3: when good things happen to good people, don't. We'd love
Speaker 3: to celebrate success here.
Speaker 4: We call it karma.
Speaker 3: We do absolutely beautiful. His net worth went up I
Speaker 3: think seventy billion dollars in the last month, modest because
Speaker 3: he's you know, he really he woke up earlier. You know,
Speaker 3: he put in the hours and when you do that,
Speaker 3: you know success comes your way coming out of that.
Speaker 3: What he'd like to see is uh. Stenny Hoyer, the
Speaker 3: longtime representative from southern Maryland who was the number two
Speaker 3: in the House for really many decades, wants to see
Speaker 3: him replaced by an Oracle lobbyist. Larry Allison. Of course,
Speaker 3: Uh the founder of the CAA linked Oracle and Adrian Boafo,
Speaker 3: now running former Stenny Hoyer campaign manager, has been a
Speaker 3: lobbyist for Oracle for data centers for the last five
Speaker 3: years and is now running with Hoyer's support to replace him.
Speaker 3: Standing in his way, Harry Dunn is a Capitol police
Speaker 3: officer but also Prince George's councilwoman h Wallable Gay. We
Speaker 3: are joined today by Wallable Gay. So your your opponent's
Speaker 3: b US made seventy billion dollars last month, but you
Speaker 3: know anything can happen, So thank you for being here
Speaker 3: in the studio.
Speaker 5: We really appreciate it, right, and we have no tolerance
Speaker 5: for the billionaires living big in the United States while
Speaker 5: the rest of us are suffering.
Speaker 6: And that's why I'm running.
Speaker 3: What's so crazy is we could have minted seventy one
Speaker 3: new billionaires in the last month instead one billionaire's worth
Speaker 3: seventy one billion dollars more.
Speaker 5: The richer are getting richer. It is getting out of control.
Speaker 5: It is in our faces and it's like they just
Speaker 5: don't care anymore. And that's why we are we have
Speaker 5: we are ground zero for the attacks. It is amazing
Speaker 5: how we have billionaires who are getting richer, but yet
Speaker 5: and still we're ripping. Our federal workers have gotten the
Speaker 5: jobs taken our federal contractors anything di you understand, Maryland's
Speaker 5: fifth Congressional district has two of the wealthy as African
Speaker 5: American communities in the country that have been torn down
Speaker 5: because contracts have been taking Anything DEI in this administration
Speaker 5: has been snatched. Like we literally are hearing weekly from
Speaker 5: people looking for new opportunities because they can barely make payroll.
Speaker 5: We have federal workers who are peacemeialing side jobs to
Speaker 5: get the jobs to get the income that they have before,
Speaker 5: which they're barely getting. We are dealing with the highest
Speaker 5: grocery bills, utility bills. I'm as you mentioned, one of
Speaker 5: my opponents is a lobbyist for Oracle and we have
Speaker 5: data centers that are on our grid we are on
Speaker 5: the same grid as the capital of data centers just
Speaker 5: about yessue. It is a huge issue in Prince George's.
Speaker 5: I stopped the data center in Prince George's. We have
Speaker 5: ones that they just stopped in Charles County, and Calvert
Speaker 5: is not having it. So we have at least three
Speaker 5: of the five jurisdictions within Congressional five fighting data centers.
Speaker 5: And yet and still we're looking at Oracle possible. And
Speaker 5: they even even before the four million dollars that's coming
Speaker 5: from AI, Crypto Oracle, all of these things, they were
Speaker 5: getting money from Oracle Data Center folks. And I would
Speaker 5: just tell you this, Our bills are going up high.
Speaker 6: We are on the same grid.
Speaker 5: We are on the thirteenth state grid with the same
Speaker 5: grid as the capitol data centers Virginia. So that's why
Speaker 5: our bills are even higher than other areas. We are
Speaker 5: struggling to stop. We have in Prince William County twenty
Speaker 5: hyper skilled data centers coming up. And if that and
Speaker 5: our pjam our administrator told us, if the hyper skilled
Speaker 5: data centers keep coming up, we are going to have blackouts.
Speaker 5: So we are in trouble, and it's because of data centers.
Speaker 5: We have got to pause data centers. I am full
Speaker 5: support of Senator Sanders bill pause moratorium one data centers.
Speaker 5: In back, I introduced one in Prince George's county when
Speaker 5: we were going to have one at the Landover Moore
Speaker 5: Mall and Senator Van Hollins build that we're requires them
Speaker 5: to bring their own generation. Their pressure on the grid
Speaker 5: is making it worse for everyone. And then if you
Speaker 5: elect a lobbyist that is a data centered lobbyist, it
Speaker 5: will get worse. You're almost like asking for increasing utility bills,
Speaker 5: and yet instead we have, as you said, the oracle
Speaker 5: man is now more richer than he ever has, and
Speaker 5: we have seniors that can't pay their bills.
Speaker 6: In fact, my office, we're paying bills.
Speaker 3: I feel like if Howard Zenn had been immortal and
Speaker 3: was around today, like writing and writing a new book,
Speaker 3: it'd be like Larry Ellison oracle lobbyists trying to replace
Speaker 3: Stenny Hoyer in southern Maryland. Now. The thing that makes
Speaker 3: this race interesting though, is there seem like they're two
Speaker 3: hundred and fifty five people running. How many people running
Speaker 3: in this race?
Speaker 5: It's twenty three now we had one dropout for the
Speaker 5: Democratic side doesn't include the Republican side. And it's because
Speaker 5: hor who stayed in office for almost He's stayed in
Speaker 5: office longer than I've been born, so it is he
Speaker 5: has been forty forty five years in office, and that
Speaker 5: has caused people to have to say, this is a moment.
Speaker 6: And I will tell you this, the suffering.
Speaker 5: I know that we have people I'm running against that
Speaker 5: I don't know very well. But what I know is
Speaker 5: that they're mostly laid off in federal workers that are
Speaker 5: just sick of it and deciding they want to get involved.
Speaker 5: It is the suffering that's going on that's costing the
Speaker 5: twenty four people to run because people are seeing we've
Speaker 5: never seen this before. Like twenty years ago, this was
Speaker 5: the Middle America where they were taking away those factory jobs,
Speaker 5: and those factory jobs were leaving the country.
Speaker 6: Now it's us.
Speaker 5: We are little federal workers are losing jobs and they
Speaker 5: cannot find anything that would pay them or give them
Speaker 5: anything before and the ones who've keeping their jobs, they
Speaker 5: feel that they have been pretty much nobody appreciates them.
Speaker 5: And meanwhile, this is happening. We're spending a billion dollars
Speaker 5: a day in the around war. While we've got peopleeople
Speaker 5: who have been told their jobs were cut to save money.
Speaker 3: Oh, go ahead, correct me if I'm wrong. In your district,
Speaker 3: whenever there's a government shut down at a lot of
Speaker 3: your workers are contractors, and the actual employees will get
Speaker 3: back paid, but the contractors get stiffed usually.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but understand don't because the employees, if they hear this,
Speaker 5: they will just cringe, right, because the reality is that
Speaker 5: as you're waiting, there's a late bill, there's bill payments
Speaker 5: that need to be paid back. Yeah, and then they
Speaker 5: are looking at back pay. But the reality is that
Speaker 5: getting all those late fees waiting for things to come,
Speaker 5: money come. I mean, there were people that called and said,
Speaker 5: I know what's to shut down, but while I'm about
Speaker 5: to get my LFE turned off because we're already behind.
Speaker 5: So is that then the federal contractors, Yes, they don't
Speaker 5: get job and federal contracts even worse. We have about
Speaker 5: in Prince George's County alone, we have about a seventy
Speaker 5: five thousand federal workers, and in each county they have
Speaker 5: a big number. But what's even bigger is a federal
Speaker 5: contractors and federal contracts don't have the same protection, so
Speaker 5: they don't get the notice. They don't get a lot
Speaker 5: of them are getting last minute notice that they have
Speaker 5: been the contracts have been ended, and they don't get
Speaker 5: all of these packages and all that that's required with
Speaker 5: a federal worker. So we have federal contractors who are
Speaker 5: just getting quick notice that they've been laid that they're
Speaker 5: going to be laid off, and no money to really go.
Speaker 6: Like, people are struggling.
Speaker 5: We did put out something about paying bills from my
Speaker 5: with the nonprofit because we fund a nonprofit and we
Speaker 5: had to say no to a lot of people.
Speaker 6: So it is struggle right now.
Speaker 5: I think that it is something that many people are
Speaker 5: not used to, so they're trying to kind of go
Speaker 5: through it. So right now, what a Horrior endorsement ten
Speaker 5: years ago would have sealed to deal right it would
Speaker 5: have been, it would be over.
Speaker 6: Because I've been a.
Speaker 5: Council member for four years now in Push George's County,
Speaker 5: and prior to that, I was a labor lawyer involved
Speaker 5: in the community.
Speaker 6: I had a show chat with the lawyer.
Speaker 5: I've run against a ticket before, and when I ran
Speaker 5: against a ticket that with normal times, people just say,
Speaker 5: look I know these people. I'm going to vote for
Speaker 5: whoever they recommend. Now, we went door knocking yesterday. People
Speaker 5: are asking questions. They say, we got to research candidates
Speaker 5: because the hurt.
Speaker 6: Is too much.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and I was gonna ask. I mean, so your
Speaker 7: opponent might say data centers. If people are struggling in
Speaker 7: PG County, they need jobs. Data centers bring jobs, data
Speaker 7: centers bring tax relief.
Speaker 6: We've been played before, right.
Speaker 4: So tell us.
Speaker 7: And I was also curious, when you're talking about this
Speaker 7: on the campaign trail, what you're hearing from people, because
Speaker 7: we're not being told by Kevin O'Leary and others that
Speaker 7: this is just a giant Chinese psychological operation on the
Speaker 7: American public. China is making us mad at data centers.
Speaker 6: What are you.
Speaker 5: Hearing, Well, we're here, so we're put it like this.
Speaker 5: This was before this election. People found out in Prince
Speaker 5: George's County they have fast tracked data centers, that Prime
Speaker 5: administration have fast tracked data centers. The Council done counting executive.
Speaker 5: When we came in, we didn't even know about the
Speaker 5: fast tracking. But what happened was all of a sudden,
Speaker 5: the work out to the community that one of the
Speaker 5: data centers was at permitting and we found people called
Speaker 5: the office demanding screaming. We had an event where people
Speaker 5: took over. About almost a thousand people showed up screaming
Speaker 5: and yelling, and they were like, why why do we
Speaker 5: have this? We were already looking into the issue, and
Speaker 5: I think we had a qualified data center task force
Speaker 5: to look into the issue. But then I did a
Speaker 5: pause because I was like, no, fast tracking, everything has
Speaker 5: to stop the reality is that what's getting people the bills.
Speaker 5: People are seeing a thousand dollar bill a month at
Speaker 5: people who I used to have.
Speaker 6: A bill that was less than one hundred dollars.
Speaker 5: Even I myself and admit to you, yes that I
Speaker 5: got a six hundred dollar bill in January, and so
Speaker 5: if you were getting that I had an eighty five,
Speaker 5: I mean it is really I had an eighty five
Speaker 5: year old woman who said that she's got a fifteen
Speaker 5: hundred dollar bill. She doesn't know if you have an
Speaker 5: older house, it's even worse. That's what's really driving the frustration,
Speaker 5: and I think people are feeling like what a data center.
Speaker 5: They're seeing a lot of things, a lot of the
Speaker 5: information online. They want to know, how does this impact
Speaker 5: their life, how does it impact their environment, how does.
Speaker 6: It impact their water?
Speaker 5: So what we know is my opponent has been quiet
Speaker 5: on what his work is with data centers. He even
Speaker 5: says it's education. But the reality is that Oracle is
Speaker 5: building data centers.
Speaker 7: So he's not even trying to own it and say, listen,
Speaker 7: I was bringing jobs.
Speaker 4: He's just someone that doesn't want to talk about it.
Speaker 5: We know that the job count for a data center,
Speaker 5: for a regular data center, is about twelve to fifteen,
Speaker 5: and so we are talking about it, and they even
Speaker 5: said that what's even worse is that a lot of
Speaker 5: the jobs are remote, so arguably they can hire somebody
Speaker 5: from another state and so you might not need someone
Speaker 5: in town. Now, the unions will argue, and I know
Speaker 5: that because they were the ones that I found out
Speaker 5: that my opponent worked for data center.
Speaker 6: I found out through the unions.
Speaker 5: The unions actually says, well, this is unionized jobs, but
Speaker 5: the reality is that the construction jobs, those.
Speaker 6: Are temporary jobs. I am pro labor. I am a
Speaker 6: labor lawyer, so I am I.
Speaker 5: Believe any data center built should be built under a
Speaker 5: labor agreement. However, is this good for the residents the
Speaker 5: answer is no, no, no, no.
Speaker 3: So you also made news in Prince Georgie County as
Speaker 3: you were pushing a ceasefire resolution, or talk about what
Speaker 3: you did you know after October seventh, what the pushback
Speaker 3: has been and how that's playing into the rate because
Speaker 3: Adrian Boff of course, because this is a Howard Zen
Speaker 3: story also has a support of democratic majority for Israel.
Speaker 3: I don't know if apacs officially gotten in yet, but
Speaker 3: they have the APAX. Yes, DMFI is basically an apex right.
Speaker 5: Right right, yeah, So we when October seventh, and of
Speaker 5: course I am in no support of killing of Harma's actions. However,
Speaker 5: the story, the visuals of those killings in Gaza got
Speaker 5: to me. We had we did a ceasefire resolution. I
Speaker 5: tried to lobby my colleagues to do a permanent sea
Speaker 5: cease fire resolution. A lot of people were afraid because
Speaker 5: of Abac, but I wasn't because I felt strongly that
Speaker 5: this was wrong.
Speaker 6: On all sides.
Speaker 5: We don't we shouldn't have Hamas killing people, We shouldn't
Speaker 5: have an Israel government killing people. So we did a
Speaker 5: ceasefire rally with the Muslim community and Christian community.
Speaker 6: We had pastors.
Speaker 5: We had everyone come out and so now of course,
Speaker 5: and we're not for putting our money into a war
Speaker 5: that makes no sense, especially when our federal workers are
Speaker 5: not back to work. We are not for just giving
Speaker 5: arms with no restrictions. And that's not being anti semitic,
Speaker 5: that is just being That is just the position that
Speaker 5: America should take.
Speaker 6: They will take you with any other country.
Speaker 3: Right right, Wallible gay candidate for Maryland's fifth congressional district.
Speaker 3: Where can people find more?
Speaker 5: Go to wallablagaye dot com. W A L A B
Speaker 5: L E G A Y. I've been an activist, you
Speaker 5: know a lot in Prince George's county. They know me
Speaker 5: and my work has been known around the community. So
Speaker 5: we're on the ground and what we see. Don't let
Speaker 5: the the the four million dollars of AI crypto and
Speaker 5: all that. So that's what that's the number week at
Speaker 5: fool you into thinking that this is over.
Speaker 6: This race is over. We're talking to voters.
Speaker 3: The election is two weeks yeah roughly. All right, so
Speaker 3: we'll be watching it closely. Thanks so much for being here.
Speaker 6: Thank you.
Speaker 7: We're joined now by Orrin cass He's the founder and
Speaker 7: chief economist over at American Compass or in thanks for
Speaker 7: coming back.
Speaker 4: On the show.
Speaker 8: Thank you guys for having me fresh.
Speaker 7: Off an interview with Treasury Secretary at Scott Bessett last
Speaker 7: night at an American Compass event and disculture. I'm an
Speaker 7: American Compass member and a big.
Speaker 4: Fan of American Compass. Of course, what does it mean
Speaker 4: or I go to events? It means we get a
Speaker 4: free dinner.
Speaker 3: Every once in a while.
Speaker 8: No, no, it's there's no financial relationship. We just we
Speaker 8: are trying to support a network of policy professionals, journalists, lawyers,
Speaker 8: folks in government who are nerds like you.
Speaker 3: Remember it means like you get an AMA for free
Speaker 3: or something.
Speaker 8: We should have something like that. But no, it means
Speaker 8: we're hopefully working together on improving the policy environment.
Speaker 3: In this talent.
Speaker 6: Right.
Speaker 7: And now you are out with a new initiative on
Speaker 7: American citizenship.
Speaker 4: We can put this up on the screen.
Speaker 7: American Compass has this new reclaiming American Citizenship initiative announced
Speaker 7: last night, And we might have to add this in post,
Speaker 7: but just announced and or we're going to ask you
Speaker 7: all about what you're trying to do on the right
Speaker 7: to build a sort of initiative or to build a
Speaker 7: framework for how the right should be thinking about in
Speaker 7: ship right now, especially as.
Speaker 4: Let's put F one on the screen.
Speaker 7: This is protests erupting outside of Delaney Hall in New Jersey,
Speaker 7: and Ryan, you could probably tell us more about the
Speaker 7: left's mobilization here. Obviously this is over the treatment of
Speaker 7: people detained, which again it gets us back to this
Speaker 7: conversation about what it means to be a citizen and
Speaker 7: the like.
Speaker 4: But the left is outside of Delaney Hall. It doesn't
Speaker 4: seem to be going anywhere right.
Speaker 3: There are there are hunger strikes going on inside over
Speaker 3: on the one hand, over conditions, also access to different
Speaker 3: kinds of food, also over the protesting kind of the
Speaker 3: entire apparatus. We could actually roll F four because Hassan
Speaker 3: Piker was there recently. Earlier on the show, we talked
Speaker 3: about Adam Hamoy, new Jersey congressional candidate who just won.
Speaker 3: Last night, Hammoey and Hassan Piker went to the Delaney
Speaker 3: protests and here's Piker reading out some of the demands
Speaker 3: from the hunger strikers and protesters inside.
Speaker 9: What are these Lady Hall hunger strikers demanding? Many people
Speaker 9: have questions about what is happening inside of the Laney Hall.
Speaker 9: The detainees on hunger strike have stated that their demands
Speaker 9: are Number one, to meet with the governor. They want
Speaker 9: to meet with Governor Mickey Cheryl to go inside of
Speaker 9: the facility and meet the actual detainees. Number two, they
Speaker 9: want the release of the medically vulnerable people. They demand
Speaker 9: the immediate release of those with serious medical conditions. Number three,
Speaker 9: release young and elderly detainees. They demand the immediate release
Speaker 9: of young and elderly people. In number four, freedom, We're
Speaker 9: not striking to demand better conditions and treatment. We're going
Speaker 9: We're doing this to demand our freedom. And they've said
Speaker 9: that they're going to continue the strike until they get hurt.
Speaker 9: The hunger strike is not about improving the conditions of
Speaker 9: the facility necessarily, but to meet these demands.
Speaker 2: Most recently, they want medical attention at.
Speaker 3: Play for and protesters have altered only accused New Jersey
Speaker 3: Governor Mikey Cheryl of either you know, collaborating with with
Speaker 3: ice here or abandoning them, but meanwhile put up F
Speaker 3: three here. She has sued the sued the facility over
Speaker 3: unsanitary conditions and in particular for barring access to health inspectors.
Speaker 3: She has said, you know, if there's actually nothing to hide,
Speaker 3: if everything's fine in there, why are you blocking state
Speaker 3: health inspectors from from going from going inside. About ten
Speaker 3: ten thousand plus people have gone through this facility, most
Speaker 3: of them, I think the medians stay is about nine days.
Speaker 3: I think seventy percent or so have no criminal record,
Speaker 3: which means it's some thirty percent due and so foreign.
Speaker 3: You know, thank thanks for being here. The piece, the
Speaker 3: piece that you wrote, you know, it's it's this an
Speaker 3: elevent you can describe becase, this elevation of the idea
Speaker 3: of citizenship. As I and as I was reading it,
Speaker 3: I was thinking, like, as far as I understand, as
Speaker 3: far as I remember, the idea of citizen kind of
Speaker 3: originates sort of with the French Revolution, I think the
Speaker 3: American Revolution which inspired the French Revolution. But people, you know,
Speaker 3: people in the streets of Paris were calling themselves like
Speaker 3: citizen so and so, citizens so and so, And the
Speaker 3: purpose was to do pretty much what you're suggesting in
Speaker 3: the in the essay here, which is to establish kind
Speaker 3: of a level of baseline humanity and equality among the people,
Speaker 3: and to say the Republican. Yeah, well there's that too,
Speaker 3: and to say that we write and a call back
Speaker 3: to that, to say that we we have duties and
Speaker 3: responsibilities to you know, to the to the state. There
Speaker 3: are things that we are obliged to do for the state,
Speaker 3: and there are things the state that is obliged to
Speaker 3: do for us because we are citizens. And it's a
Speaker 3: and it's a two way street. I don't know, how
Speaker 3: do you like, how do you think about it?
Speaker 8: I guess I would put a little differently, I think,
Speaker 8: for one thing, to Emily's point, you know, the citizen
Speaker 8: concept goes back to Rome and the Roman Republic, and
Speaker 8: it was certainly very central to the American founding.
Speaker 3: I guess it's a contemporary issue.
Speaker 8: Well sure, I mean French Revolution. French Revolution is a
Speaker 8: strange place to go as the start. You're right, they
Speaker 8: called each other's citizens. But I think also, you know,
Speaker 8: this captures a way in which the French relation is
Speaker 8: obviously less successful. I think most people would say, and
Speaker 8: how you're describing as kind of just a fundamental claim
Speaker 8: of equality of things that that the people owe to
Speaker 8: the state. I think this is what's most important about citizenship,
Speaker 8: which is that it's a it's a reciprocal obligation among
Speaker 8: the people. And and that goes back again to this
Speaker 8: notion I mean of what is a republic? Right. The
Speaker 8: one thing that's so unique about the United States is
Speaker 8: that it's really, you know, the nation that was brought
Speaker 8: into being by the sheer will of citizens who wanted
Speaker 8: to create this thing to serve them. And I think,
Speaker 8: you know, if you go back and you look historically
Speaker 8: really up to very close in the twentieth century, certainly
Speaker 8: you know in the US there was very much an
Speaker 8: understanding of citizenship. You again, it has its legal meaning
Speaker 8: who can live where, but citizenship really meant something much broader.
Speaker 8: It meant full participation in communal life, in economic life,
Speaker 8: in national life. It meant a sense of solidarity. It meant,
Speaker 8: you know, ultimately that you also had this connection between generations,
Speaker 8: that you were inheriting something from the people who had
Speaker 8: invested to give it to you, that you in turn
Speaker 8: had an obligation to invest and give it to the
Speaker 8: next generation. And it seems to me that and what
Speaker 8: we're really focused on American compass, is that that's just
Speaker 8: fundamental to human flourishing, to a well functioning society, and
Speaker 8: I think it's something that we've lost. And you know,
Speaker 8: we obviously do a lot of work on economic policy,
Speaker 8: I think in terms of what do policymakers need to
Speaker 8: do better, economic policy is a huge piece of it.
Speaker 8: But the reality is that you also need a political
Speaker 8: culture that's going to be able to make those kinds
Speaker 8: of changes. You need people who are bought into the system.
Speaker 8: This thing we spoke about a lot with Secretary Bessett
Speaker 8: last night that especially when you talk to young people,
Speaker 8: you know, the problem isn't that they don't have enough
Speaker 8: stuff right like that we have more material abundance than ever,
Speaker 8: I think, but they're very well founded. Frustration is that
Speaker 8: it's not clear what any of it's for. And so
Speaker 8: when we think about reclaiming American citizenship, and the reclaiming
Speaker 8: is very important because I think there really is something
Speaker 8: that was sort of stripped away that over really the
Speaker 8: past generation, we've degraded that kind of relationship into something
Speaker 8: that is just more you know, you are a consumer,
Speaker 8: not an actual productive participant necessarily in the act to me,
Speaker 8: you know, you are sort of this individual with radical
Speaker 8: autonomy to invent your own truth, not somebody who is
Speaker 8: a member of a community and lives within those obligations,
Speaker 8: and at the national level, to some extent, even you know,
Speaker 8: outright shame or disdain for what is an incredible heritage
Speaker 8: that we have inherited and should be trying to carry forward.
Speaker 8: And so I think in substantive terms, I mean, there's
Speaker 8: a lot of policy that canct that has caused some
Speaker 8: of these problems, that could address.
Speaker 10: Some of them.
Speaker 8: But also just as a matter of how we approach
Speaker 8: our politics, I think, you know, what is really missing
Speaker 8: out there right now is an aspirational, positive vision that's
Speaker 8: not you know, the traditional rights center message has just
Speaker 8: been like, well, we'll just get government out of the
Speaker 8: way and everyone will flourish. That that's obviously not sufficient.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 8: The message from the left of center tends to be more,
Speaker 8: you know, we'll hear the things that are lacking that
Speaker 8: we will therefore give you. I don't think that's sufficient either,
Speaker 8: and so we're trying to figure out, you know, what
Speaker 8: is the message that actually acknowledge and speak to the
Speaker 8: very real problems, but in a way that actually reclaims
Speaker 8: some of what we've lost.
Speaker 7: And the Delaney protests remind me of a distinction that
Speaker 7: I think has been raised, whether it was in Minneapolis
Speaker 7: or elsewhere. And I actually don't mean this in the
Speaker 7: context of Delaney, because I believe people in our detention
Speaker 7: should be treated humanly, of course, but there has been
Speaker 7: a blurring of the distinction between resident and citizen. That
Speaker 7: I find very interesting is sometimes it seems as though, yes,
Speaker 7: we should be affording certain rights people who are in detention,
Speaker 7: people who are here on green cards, visas and the like,
Speaker 7: especially if we said we were going to But also
Speaker 7: there is a distinction between somebody who's living here in
Speaker 7: the United States legally or in some cases illegally, and
Speaker 7: a citizen. And I think the meaning of citizen is why,
Speaker 7: I mean, the degraded meaning of citizen is probably why
Speaker 7: that distinction has been blurred.
Speaker 4: I don't know if you have any thoughts on.
Speaker 8: Foreign No, I think it's a great point. I think,
Speaker 8: you know, so much of what we're seeing in our
Speaker 8: struggles with illegal andration now are really way downstream of okay,
Speaker 8: but what is citizenship in the first place, Because I
Speaker 8: you know, I don't think it would be controversial to
Speaker 8: say on the left of center there has been much
Speaker 8: more a view that anybody has a right to come here,
Speaker 8: and the reality is that for citizenship to work, for
Speaker 8: that sense of solidarity to exist, it's actually incredibly important,
Speaker 8: both in theory and in practice, that the people who
Speaker 8: are the citizens of the nation have the right to
Speaker 8: decide who becomes a citizen. If you're telling me, I'm
Speaker 8: supposed to have some relationship to the other people, but
Speaker 8: also I have no say in who those people are
Speaker 8: going to be, that breaks down very quickly, and so
Speaker 8: that's not necessarily an argument for or against any level
Speaker 8: of immigration. Right you could have a very well functioning
Speaker 8: system that has many immigrants coming in, but it needs
Speaker 8: to be happening in a way that citizens who already
Speaker 8: here feel like and in fact do have control over.
Speaker 8: And then it has to be happening in a way
Speaker 8: that actually imposes obligations on those people as well. That says,
Speaker 8: if you want to come and be a part of
Speaker 8: this community, you know it is not simply having that
Speaker 8: piece of paper. There are obviously enormous benefits and privileges
Speaker 8: that come with being here, with being a citizen, and
Speaker 8: that also then comes with obligations that we have to
Speaker 8: be willing to uphold. And so when I see, you know,
Speaker 8: the Hassan Piker protest. That to me, it's just a
Speaker 8: perfect illustration of you know, look, if the approach you're
Speaker 8: going to have is, well, all of these people are,
Speaker 8: you know, entitled their freedom, I think it's safe to
Speaker 8: say also, you know, anybody who's concerned whether they can
Speaker 8: speak English, anyone who's willing to embrace and share a culture,
Speaker 8: that these are somehow you know, racist or uncouth things
Speaker 8: to demand. These are actually the core things to demand.
Speaker 8: And one thing we really want to focus on is like,
Speaker 8: and by the way, even if you are sort of
Speaker 8: a you know, more to the left of center, you
Speaker 8: want a much larger and more generous welfare state, you
Speaker 8: should almost be more concerned about demanding those things. I mean,
Speaker 8: it makes some sense. The libertarians are crazy, but they
Speaker 8: have an internal coherence. Right libertarians will say, like, we
Speaker 8: want help in borders, and we want no welfare state
Speaker 8: that provides anything to anybody, Like, well, that's a terrible
Speaker 8: idea of like that sounds awful, but also like at
Speaker 8: least like you're putting your money where your mouth is
Speaker 8: sort of. And I think what's been a huge problem
Speaker 8: for the left of center is to say no, no,
Speaker 8: we are going to uphold all of these things that
Speaker 8: we must give to everybody, but we absolutely reject this
Speaker 8: idea that we are going to, you know, impose anything
Speaker 8: that's going to maintain the kind of solidarity and bonds
Speaker 8: of genuine citizenship. And that's where then in turn, you
Speaker 8: just see trust start to break down. You see both
Speaker 8: at the community level, trust in the government. You see
Speaker 8: people feel like, why am I even paying taxes? What
Speaker 8: is this going to?
Speaker 7: And real Grand Valley Hispanics voting for Trump, and then.
Speaker 8: You see it is a really important point that a
Speaker 8: lot of you know, people who have immigrate to this
Speaker 8: country it have become citizens the right way, or often
Speaker 8: those who get this more than anybody and are especially
Speaker 8: frustrated by people who are not doing those things.
Speaker 6: And so, you know, I.
Speaker 8: Think it's really important to think about this as really
Speaker 8: at the root of a lot of the problems we're
Speaker 8: having here, but also to divorce it from what has
Speaker 8: been the fight about immigration for so long, which is like, well,
Speaker 8: either your pro immigration and that is the sort of
Speaker 8: humane we care about every rights, or you're anti immigration
Speaker 8: and that's somehow xenophobic or racist or whatever else. Either
Speaker 8: you're pro a good concept of citizenship which can absolutely
Speaker 8: incorporate immigration, but does it in a way that's going
Speaker 8: to work, or you're against that and you're ending up
Speaker 8: where we are today, which is a giant mess.
Speaker 3: One kind of adjacent disagreement I would have with you
Speaker 3: guys talking about that we would treat citizens and nonsense.
Speaker 3: Is it's Differently, I think it's kind of a fundamental
Speaker 3: American thing that the Constitution says, you know, all people
Speaker 3: who are here, however they're here, even murderers in prison,
Speaker 3: like have the Bill of Rights applies to them? Our
Speaker 3: Constitution applies.
Speaker 7: I just mean like non citizens voting in DC elections something.
Speaker 3: Like that, right, right, And yes, and we could that
Speaker 3: that's an interesting one too, because like if you if
Speaker 3: you live there and you have a stake, you want
Speaker 3: people to have a stake in the society. But I
Speaker 3: feel like, and often when I'm reading American compas stuff,
Speaker 3: I'm like, how is this right wing? I agree with
Speaker 3: all of this stuff for the most.
Speaker 4: Part, like the libertarians who are or.
Speaker 3: In critics, Yeah, real, there you go. But so I
Speaker 3: do feel like there is a a compromise that kind
Speaker 3: of reinvigorates the kind of Bernie Sanders kind of a
Speaker 3: fl Cio mid two thousands kind of position, and one
Speaker 3: in one place I disagree, somewhat disagree, and maybe I'm wrong,
Speaker 3: but it particularly during the Biden administration, and there's a
Speaker 3: belief on the right that the Biden administration deliberately unleashed
Speaker 3: and pulled in a massive wave of mirants because they
Speaker 3: wanted to destroy the country and that they thought these
Speaker 3: people are going to then become Democratic voters and they're
Speaker 3: going to lock down the country forever. Like I think
Speaker 3: that is a genuinely held view among a lot of
Speaker 3: people on the right, which I just think is incorrect
Speaker 3: and to your point, like analytically, like a lot of
Speaker 3: people who come in and are immigrants and become citizens,
Speaker 3: they voted Republicans, like like even from even on its
Speaker 3: own terms, like this idea that millions of people coming
Speaker 3: in is automatically and Matt And also they can't vote,
Speaker 3: and let's say, okay, their kids are going to vote,
Speaker 3: and let's say it's Chuck Schumer's like twenty year plan,
Speaker 3: Like it's not. There's no guarantee that they're going to
Speaker 3: be Democrats, Like you're going to cheat to like, you know,
Speaker 3: take over the country. This would be the craziest way
Speaker 3: to go about doing it. I think what actually happened
Speaker 3: is that Trump did slow immigration significantly in his first term,
Speaker 3: and then COVID shut it down completely in like March
Speaker 3: of two thousand and and you had.
Speaker 4: Border crossings were going up.
Speaker 7: There were caravans that were sending a lot of migrantce
Speaker 7: border crossings were growing up.
Speaker 4: I don't know about the net, but yeah, I.
Speaker 3: Mean, but and then you had the economic collapse in
Speaker 3: Venzuela and Cuba, and you had this mass push to
Speaker 3: the border and then it pours over. But my point
Speaker 3: is whether, however you feel about that. I think it's
Speaker 3: crazy to think it was a giant conspiracy. I think
Speaker 3: it happened, and they like, because I knew people involved
Speaker 3: with they like they were just overwhelmed at what was
Speaker 3: going on and wasn't something and they were trying to
Speaker 3: just deal with it. Regardless of that, I feel like
Speaker 3: Democrats overall, maybe not the activist groups, but Democrats overall
Speaker 3: are at a place where they're like, Okay, you know
Speaker 3: what we were wrong about that, Like that was bad policy,
Speaker 3: It didn't help the migrants, it didn't help workers, didn't
Speaker 3: help anybody, and it hurt us politically, and so fine,
Speaker 3: you know, we need a stronger border, but we're not
Speaker 3: going to do that again. At the same time, what's
Speaker 3: happening in Delaney Hall and at these ice attention facilities
Speaker 3: across the country, and you know, thankfully they're not sending
Speaker 3: ice as viciously through places like Minneapolis as they were before.
Speaker 3: But that that kind of thing where you're where you're.
Speaker 8: Jump in here because I really disagree with a few elements.
Speaker 8: First of all, the idea. I think you're right that
Speaker 8: it can be overwritten as a sort of elaborate, multi
Speaker 8: decade conspiracy theory. It is unquestionably the case that the
Speaker 8: Biden administration could have controlled immigration and chose not to difference.
Speaker 8: And the way that we know that is because six
Speaker 8: months before the election, when they realized they were going
Speaker 8: to get crushed, they did they did. So this was
Speaker 8: a choice by the bidenstration and it was a disastrously
Speaker 8: bad one. The segment, I think it's very important to
Speaker 8: say about now the challenges that we're having and enforcing
Speaker 8: the law is that this is the inevitable downstream consequence
Speaker 8: of what the FIDE administration did you cannot say we
Speaker 8: are going to lawlessly allow millions of people into the
Speaker 8: country and then when the voters, as you say, even
Speaker 8: the Democratic Party is ready to admit, Wow, that wasn't
Speaker 8: a really good idea, say, whoa, whoa, whoa. We can't believe.
Speaker 8: Now it's hard to actually enforce law and do something
Speaker 8: about it. And you know, I don't know about the
Speaker 8: details in cleanning Hall. I think to your point, you know,
Speaker 8: humane detention and so forth, it is critical. But I
Speaker 8: also really take issue with this idea that you know,
Speaker 8: oh well, ICE is like viciously going to Minneapolis. Because
Speaker 8: here's the thing. Most ICE activity and detentions and deportations
Speaker 8: are happening in states. We don't hear anything about why
Speaker 8: is that.
Speaker 3: Well, because they're going to U VISA appointments or.
Speaker 8: No, they're because they're doing it in states where the
Speaker 8: governments in the states and the cities agree to work
Speaker 8: with ICE and enforce the law.
Speaker 4: Maybe like New Orleans or Memphis in Texas.
Speaker 8: What you are seeing in a conflict in place like
Speaker 8: Minneapolis is a sanctuary city. You're seeing a city that
Speaker 8: is saying we refuse to support the enforcement of the law.
Speaker 8: And in fact, we're going to obstruct it in all
Speaker 8: sorts of ways. And in that context, yes, it's going
Speaker 8: to be very messy. And so to your point, oh,
Speaker 8: will democrats understand this now? Sanctuary cities is question number one.
Speaker 8: When I see the sanctuary cities reversing those policies, I'll
Speaker 8: believe you that in fact, we're ready to get serious
Speaker 8: about this. And if I don't see that, and I
Speaker 8: think the American people don't see that, it's going to
Speaker 8: be very hard to take seriously this like, no, no,
Speaker 8: we want to just do this the right way. We
Speaker 8: want to do this humanly. Unfortunately, it looks like you
Speaker 8: don't want to enforce the law at all, and that's
Speaker 8: a huge challenge.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess the point is that, like, if we're
Speaker 3: really going to take this idea of citizenship seriously and
Speaker 3: if we're all citizens first, then it has to get
Speaker 3: beyond this left verset right, Democrat versus Republican. I think
Speaker 3: somebody like Stephen Miller, who even Trump has said, you know,
Speaker 3: if you had your way, there'd be one hundred million
Speaker 3: people here and they'd all look like you, and that
Speaker 3: that is then expressed as as policy where he's you know,
Speaker 3: mandating these you know, three thousand, four thousand whatever. It
Speaker 3: is a day, and it's and it's and it's producing
Speaker 3: you mean deportations, right, three three thousand deep?
Speaker 8: Yeah, Now do you remember how many people were coming
Speaker 8: across the border.
Speaker 3: There's a lot. There was a lot, it was right.
Speaker 8: Right, So at what rate would you like to deport
Speaker 8: the millions and millions of people that we agree with?
Speaker 11: Theistry I think shows I think this would be the
Speaker 11: interesting place where if we're serious about a compromising, a compromise,
Speaker 11: I think it would look something like violent criminals and.
Speaker 3: Let but as citizens come together and say, look, we're
Speaker 3: going to focus on deporting violent criminals. That's the first
Speaker 3: thing we can all agree on this. So we're going
Speaker 3: to focus on that as citizens of this country, people
Speaker 3: who are following the law, and we're gonna and we're
Speaker 3: going to close the border in a serious way as
Speaker 3: you as you guys want, and people who are following
Speaker 3: the law and who who love our country and are
Speaker 3: here for the right reasons, we're going to find a
Speaker 3: pathway to make them citizens. If we can't come to
Speaker 3: that kind of agreement, then we'll just do every two
Speaker 3: years war back and forth, and uh, so what it is?
Speaker 8: So I just want to put out the irony heres
Speaker 8: you were telling me there was no Biden conspiracy. These
Speaker 8: people aren't going to be able to vote anyway, But
Speaker 8: now the only acceptable compromise is no. No, with the
Speaker 8: exception of the violent criminals, they should all be given citizenship.
Speaker 8: So I so I questioned that the common sense compromise. Secondly,
Speaker 8: it seems to me there are some other things we
Speaker 8: could do here, for instance, workplace enforcement right if we
Speaker 8: just if right because in fact, every one of these
Speaker 8: people who are here legally and working, uh, there is
Speaker 8: a violation of the law there as well. And so
Speaker 8: you know that that's one place I think, you know
Speaker 8: where publican party is overwhelmingly in favor of mandatory you verify.
Speaker 8: I think that's a great place we could be taking
Speaker 8: much firmer action.
Speaker 4: Well, I'm curious to actually here's some contrast between both.
Speaker 3: Of you on the labor question, you know, on the
Speaker 3: and yes, and on the citizen question. Let's say, really
Speaker 3: worried that these people are going to vote for Democrats.
Speaker 3: I think it's I think it's overblown. But you could say, okay,
Speaker 3: here's the pathway to citizenship is here's a legal work
Speaker 3: requirement you have to work for you can work for
Speaker 3: twelve years, but that's compliant with you verify that that
Speaker 3: it's not a second class kind of workforce that it
Speaker 3: is working in the shadows.
Speaker 8: Fake social security, right, So the also and then but
Speaker 8: they are citizens or they after say twelve years.
Speaker 7: Okay, let's roll this clip of Scott Bessett, and I'll
Speaker 7: get your take on this orn because you interviewed him
Speaker 7: last night. But Scott Bessett gave what he's what a
Speaker 7: lot of people are reacting to as a major economic
Speaker 7: speech at the Reagan Library last week, and he was
Speaker 7: talking about economic security as national security and how we've
Speaker 7: kind of the way he sees it, that we've sort
Speaker 7: of divorced these two things when they should always be
Speaker 7: thought of together. And citizenship and labor are obviously a
Speaker 7: huge component of this.
Speaker 4: So let's roll the clip.
Speaker 10: Well, America's slept our vulnerabilities grew, but under President Trump's
Speaker 10: leadership were alert to the risk we can no longer ignore,
Speaker 10: and a tune to the responsibility we can no longer defer.
Speaker 10: Under President Trump, we have awoken to mourning again in
Speaker 10: America and our best days I believe still lie ahead.
Speaker 7: So not to interrupt the conversation you were having, but
Speaker 7: to continue it, Ryan, you would say, our birth rate
Speaker 7: is a serious problem, you would say, and Orin you
Speaker 7: would probably agree with Ryan on that. You would say
Speaker 7: also that we need people to work more of these jobs.
Speaker 7: We have a huge chunk of actually, like working aage man,
Speaker 7: ten percent of working age men outside of the labor force.
Speaker 7: But also it's hard to fill some of these jobs.
Speaker 7: So Orin, if we're bringing manufacturing back to the United States,
Speaker 7: first of all, are we the Second of all, is
Speaker 7: that going to do we have workers for that? If
Speaker 7: we're also engaged in mass deportations.
Speaker 8: Well so I think we certainly are breing manufacturing back.
Speaker 8: Wall Street journals. Greg yp has been calling it a
Speaker 8: stealth manufacturing boom, because the reality is step point is
Speaker 8: you actually have to build new factories. Right, You're not
Speaker 8: going to see the actual hiring for some time. But
Speaker 8: you know, to your point, we certainly have plenty of
Speaker 8: people outside the labor force. We have plenty of people
Speaker 8: in much lower productivity jobs that might be well served
Speaker 8: by jobs in the manufacturing sector. We also have a
Speaker 8: lot of technological change happening that people think of going
Speaker 8: to vastly increase productivity. If anything, they're concerned that, you know,
Speaker 8: we won't have enough work for everybody. And so you know,
Speaker 8: I think both on this question of sort of immigration,
Speaker 8: forcement on this question of the labor market, and reshoring
Speaker 8: it again all comes back to this idea for me
Speaker 8: of the first question here is what sort of nation
Speaker 8: do we want to be, and you know, what sort
Speaker 8: of model do we want to go forward on? And
Speaker 8: then questions of economic policy, questions of how much growth
Speaker 8: are you getting? These questions you then decide those within
Speaker 8: the confines of the kind of country that you want
Speaker 8: to be. And so you know, the phrase jobs Americans
Speaker 8: won't do, I think is a quintessential example of the
Speaker 8: problem here. The idea that we're going to have a
Speaker 8: whole class of jobs in our economy that the people
Speaker 8: who live here won't do is sort of simultaneously demeaning
Speaker 8: to the people who absolutely will work if there are
Speaker 8: jobs with good conditions that pay a living wage. And
Speaker 8: it's ridiculous to suggest that employers in business models should
Speaker 8: be operating in ways that create jobs that don't meet
Speaker 8: those conditions. So I think you know, we really have
Speaker 8: to focus on is saying there need to be some
Speaker 8: constraints here. Citizenship, in one respects is a constraint. We
Speaker 8: have the citizens of this country for whom the market operates, right,
Speaker 8: it is not the point. It's not for citizens to
Speaker 8: serve the market. The point is for the market to
Speaker 8: be serving citizens. And so how do we change policies
Speaker 8: to actually generate those kinds of results some of the
Speaker 8: things we're doing with trade and industrial policy as a
Speaker 8: way to drive more investment, you know, get more of
Speaker 8: a focus on creating these kinds of jobs. I think
Speaker 8: an element of the immigration policy definitely has to be Okay,
Speaker 8: you know, what is the premise of immigration policy. If
Speaker 8: the premises we just need to add people to do jobs,
Speaker 8: that I think very much demeans the notion of citizenship
Speaker 8: as as a community in a nation first and foremost.
Speaker 8: And so you know, I actually appreciated, you know, Ryan,
Speaker 8: you mentioned sort of the Bernie Sanders a fl Cio
Speaker 8: view of the you know, maybe mid two thousands on
Speaker 8: something like immigration.
Speaker 4: Teams to responsor the team series.
Speaker 8: Responsor the gaalast Night teams. I think, you know, are
Speaker 8: are much less beholden to some of the more left
Speaker 8: wing activist groups. At this point, the reality is that
Speaker 8: the afl CIO no longer has the nfl C oppositionion,
Speaker 8: Bernie Sanders no longer has the Bertie Sanders position. And
Speaker 8: so I think you're absolutely right that there is a
Speaker 8: point of view on what immigration should look like that
Speaker 8: Democrats historically talled and Republicans historically held right. It did
Speaker 8: not used to be nearly as contentious an issue, and reality,
Speaker 8: I think it was the Financial Times had had some
Speaker 8: wonderful charts on this a year or two ago where
Speaker 8: they showed, you know, with various measures, you know, what
Speaker 8: was the republican, independent Democrat or conservative moderate liberal perspective
Speaker 8: on immigration, And what showed was the right of center
Speaker 8: and center's view just sort of proceeding without any real change,
Speaker 8: and the left of center view veering way off. And
Speaker 8: you know, look, you can say and the left center
Speaker 8: view was right to do that they should be pulling
Speaker 8: everyone over. But as a descriptive matter, the divisiveness of
Speaker 8: this issue, the shift in how we talk and argue
Speaker 8: about it and ultimately are i would say, sort of
Speaker 8: loss of that concept of citizenship to the extent we're
Speaker 8: in the immigration context that veer on the left is
Speaker 8: the thing that is causing the change, and I think
Speaker 8: we really have to grapple with But then I would
Speaker 8: just say that also that you know, immigration is one
Speaker 8: obviously very relevant piece of the citizenship conversation, but it's
Speaker 8: certainly not all or even most of it, right. I mean,
Speaker 8: even if you completely fixed all of our immigration problems,
Speaker 8: we would still have this broader breakdown in communal life,
Speaker 8: in economic life, in national life. And so, you know,
Speaker 8: it's unfortunate some respects to the extent that because of
Speaker 8: the direction immigration has gone it it has become as
Speaker 8: central a focus as it is. But moving beyond that
Speaker 8: really requires is not just making sure we have a stable,
Speaker 8: insane immigration system, you know, it just as much requires
Speaker 8: thinking about what is the pathway for a young person
Speaker 8: into adulthood? Right, you know, the way that we did
Speaker 8: sort of college for all, I think it's been a disaster.
Speaker 8: We've sort of said, either you're somebody who's going to
Speaker 8: go to college, succeed there and head off in life,
Speaker 8: or we just kind of have nothing for you. And so,
Speaker 8: you know, how do we think about the role of education,
Speaker 8: How do we think about transitioning into adulthood all that.
Speaker 8: It's a big piece of discussion. I think you know,
Speaker 8: place and just caring about it and not saying webron
Speaker 8: can move to opportunity and frankly, we're going to strip
Speaker 8: mine all of the most talented people out of a
Speaker 8: lot of communities, say saying that place is the most
Speaker 8: important thing in a lot of ways, in a lot
Speaker 8: of people's lives. And so how do we make sure
Speaker 8: you know, the economic growth and opportunity the vitality of
Speaker 8: communities is getting out everywhere instead of saying, well, here
Speaker 8: are the enclaves you can come to if you want it.
Speaker 8: Those are the kinds of things we're really going to
Speaker 8: have to address and and prioritize over the next quarter's
Speaker 8: GDP number.
Speaker 3: Well, what I mean, one thing that keeps people in
Speaker 3: places is you got to have a hospital. You got
Speaker 3: to have a hospital. You gotta have a rural hospital.
Speaker 3: You got it. And it helps if you have a
Speaker 3: college or a university, even a small one that just
Speaker 3: statistically like that's going to keep people.
Speaker 8: Who Yeah, so I totally agree with that. The problem
Speaker 8: is what's special about those two things, It's that they
Speaker 8: attract massive amounts of government spending. In other words, the.
Speaker 3: Hospital health no, no, but but they're important in its
Speaker 3: own right.
Speaker 8: Is that's absolutely true? But but economically what's going on
Speaker 8: here is that as you'vell it used to be well,
Speaker 8: of course you'd have a hospital there, because if you
Speaker 8: have a vibrant community and people who are doing well
Speaker 8: and prospering, you would want to have a hospital.
Speaker 4: You're saying it would follow the.
Speaker 8: Right You didn't used to have to worry about Wait
Speaker 8: a minute, why how do we get healthcare to this place?
Speaker 8: Because if it was a vibrant place.
Speaker 3: Of well, you have a doctor that had likes.
Speaker 8: Them at at some point. You know, that's right. Our
Speaker 8: healthcare system has obviously evolved, and you know in rural
Speaker 8: communities you also just have a scale problem. But the
Speaker 8: extent to which we now think, oh well, in a
Speaker 8: lot of places you have to have a hospital and
Speaker 8: you have to have a college is because those are
Speaker 8: the two things that you can put there that simply
Speaker 8: by enrolling people or admitting people entitle you to massive
Speaker 8: amounts of federal money.
Speaker 3: Right, and like Land Grant University is being a critical linkage.
Speaker 8: Well, and think what's upon TIMEO was Lang Grant universities.
Speaker 8: Now it's just anybody whose students are eligible for financial
Speaker 8: aid and student loans, many of which will never even
Speaker 8: be paid back.
Speaker 7: But that's the vicious cycle, because you were saying people
Speaker 7: can't exist in some of these areas without the federal spending.
Speaker 7: At the Royal Hospital now because they don't have private
Speaker 7: sector insurance, they're the big factory that employed people, it's gone,
Speaker 7: and so there basically we're in a vicious cycle kind
Speaker 7: of as how it's.
Speaker 3: Very hard to attract companies to move to an area
Speaker 3: if there's no there's no hospital, and a university helps too.
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think certainly. And you know, one thing with
Speaker 8: the respect at university, I think that's very important is
Speaker 8: we concentrate all of our you know, federal research spending
Speaker 8: for leading edge research in a very few places. There's
Speaker 8: no reason we have to do that, especially in the
Speaker 8: sort of modern communication and so forth. It's not like
Speaker 8: you need all the best scientists of every kind living
Speaker 8: in Cambridge, Massachusetts, or you know, Palo Alto, California, or
Speaker 8: even New York City. There's no reason you can't take
Speaker 8: that sort of funding and direct it more towards having
Speaker 8: great labs in every state university around the country and
Speaker 8: start pushing things back out that way. The reason I
Speaker 8: just emphasized the sort of public spending of eds and
Speaker 8: meds as they call it, is just to say, you know,
Speaker 8: the reason that's how with the landscape books today is
Speaker 8: because we've hollowed out the rest of it so completely.
Speaker 8: And you're right, given that the vicious cycle that we're in,
Speaker 8: bootstrapping it the other way requires a lot, a lot
Speaker 8: of attention to these things. But I think it's very
Speaker 8: important that the aspiration not be well. As long as
Speaker 8: we have enough funding for healthcare and higher education, all
Speaker 8: of these places can survive. But rather to say no, no,
Speaker 8: the long term goal has to be that these are productive,
Speaker 8: flourishing places that can also support a healthy hospital system
Speaker 8: that wants to have a college and so forth, but
Speaker 8: that first and foremost is a viable community.
Speaker 3: I would just finish one practical and pragmatic point that
Speaker 3: if we want to get to a place where as
Speaker 3: American citizens, we're actually discussing among ourselves how we're going
Speaker 3: to solve some of these problems, because I agree with you,
Speaker 3: it's not sufficient to get to bed meaning and citizenship
Speaker 3: to deal with immigration but it is necessary to deal
Speaker 3: with first. I would just say to the millions of
Speaker 3: people that came across during the Bide administration, like their
Speaker 3: policy or don't like the policy, it was the policy
Speaker 3: that was in place, and they actually did follow the
Speaker 3: rules of this policy that was in place. If if
Speaker 3: there's insistence that it has to be a Stephen Miller approach,
Speaker 3: where you know, mandatory detention is required for people who
Speaker 3: haven't committed any crimes, like not even not even bail
Speaker 3: while they're like contesting that these asylum claims or anything else,
Speaker 3: they are just locked in these detention facilities and they're
Speaker 3: getting scooped up off the street. If that's going to
Speaker 3: be the way that Republicans, when they're in power, insist
Speaker 3: on dealing with immigration, then Democrats are never going to
Speaker 3: come around on the other parts of it. They're never
Speaker 3: going to say, Okay, we're wrong on this, wrong on this,
Speaker 3: let let's let's let's do let's do a comprehensive type
Speaker 3: of reform that gets us to a place where we
Speaker 3: can have a rational policy. That's just my guess, this
Speaker 3: is not very hopeful that if that Republicans have to say, okay, well,
Speaker 3: let's focus on violent criminals, then let's focus on but
Speaker 3: they have Republicans have their own agency if they just
Speaker 3: want to like.
Speaker 8: Well, look, this is why I say there are different
Speaker 8: ways to enforcement, and this is why I think the
Speaker 8: workplace enforcement is a much fair tests because I agree
Speaker 8: with you. You know, one thing we've found in certainly it
Speaker 8: shows from the polling data. We've had folks who had
Speaker 8: folks for people writing for Commonplace about this that that's right.
Speaker 8: The most sort of confrontational, aggressive approach to enforcement is
Speaker 8: not popular with a lot of people. Workplace enforcement saying
Speaker 8: if you're not here legally, if you are not allowed
Speaker 8: to work here, you in fact can't work here. That
Speaker 8: has an extraordinarily powerful effect, again not in overnight detaining
Speaker 8: people and destroying their lives necessarily, but in creating a
Speaker 8: very strong pressure for people to depart in an orderly way.
Speaker 8: And so I think it's a very helpful litmus test.
Speaker 8: Is your objection to the way they're doing it, or
Speaker 8: is your objection to the notion that these people really
Speaker 8: need do need to leave? And if it's if it's
Speaker 8: just you know, we would like to do this in
Speaker 8: a human way. Workforce enforcement offers that right, and so
Speaker 8: I think that's where.
Speaker 3: Miller's approach requires the inhumanity.
Speaker 8: That's and and and I understand that, I understand that
Speaker 8: Christian people Trump is doing today. I think the flip
Speaker 8: side of your point about what Democrats will accept is, well,
Speaker 8: if Democrats won't even accept workforce enforcement, if we can't
Speaker 8: actually get to a place where everybody agrees, I.
Speaker 3: Think they would as long as there's a path for
Speaker 3: people who came here through the process to get a
Speaker 3: work permit, then that.
Speaker 8: This is exactly what I'm telling you. This is the
Speaker 8: actual question is that people is the millions and millions
Speaker 8: of people who came in here who in frankly a
Speaker 8: very lawless way during the Biden administration.
Speaker 3: Is the end just the Bide administration?
Speaker 8: Your right point.
Speaker 3: Even before one of my one of my good friends
Speaker 3: from growing up as a contractor, and he's like, give
Speaker 3: me a union haul where I can go and hire
Speaker 3: legal people. I'm happy to do that, love to pay
Speaker 3: the wages whatever. I don't care you you as in
Speaker 3: the broad you are our government, our society have built
Speaker 3: a system where that is not possible. So then you
Speaker 3: go in and then you take all these workers, and
Speaker 3: then deport them without there being another option is completely
Speaker 3: I agree with a political guy who's like, like, this.
Speaker 8: Is just I think this is an instance where this
Speaker 8: connects really to this richer sense of citizenship, which is
Speaker 8: one of the reasons you as a contractor can't go
Speaker 8: do that, because if you do, you'll just lose out
Speaker 8: to the people who are doing the other thing. And
Speaker 8: so it's fine to say, like the UNI hall doesn't exist, right,
Speaker 8: but one reason the union hall doesn't exist is because
Speaker 8: who would go higher from the union hall if there's
Speaker 8: a massive exploitable population of undocumented immigrants to hire instead?
Speaker 8: And so it is a it is a prerequisite again
Speaker 8: to having the kind of economic life we want that
Speaker 8: does give workers power, that does create that out of
Speaker 8: the true let me just finish the point. It's a
Speaker 8: fantasy to have an economic life where we enforce labor law,
Speaker 8: have a tight labor market, and have good jobs for Americans.
Speaker 3: It is a fantasy that you're going to be able
Speaker 3: to grab twenty million people.
Speaker 8: Will you just use grab again? Why can't I just
Speaker 8: enforce Why can't I just enforce the law on the
Speaker 8: books against employers who employ people leegally?
Speaker 3: Well, you're still gonna have to grab people. No I'm not.
Speaker 8: I'm going to find employers and perhaps even arrest some
Speaker 8: employers if they continue to employ.
Speaker 3: My point is you have to also support the other
Speaker 3: side like you have to.
Speaker 8: But you haven't told me why that's a fantasy. Why
Speaker 8: can't I just require that employers follow the.
Speaker 3: Law because all of the housing construction will stop.
Speaker 8: So now we're back to jobs Americans won't do, and
Speaker 8: that's just not the way to get citizenship.
Speaker 4: Or at least still be a temporary pause.
Speaker 3: I'm just saying practically speaking, I'm not down. I'm not
Speaker 3: saying virtuous or not virtuous. It's just practically speaking, and
Speaker 3: then politically you lose. So there has to be some
Speaker 3: mechanism for people to hire people legally. I would say,
Speaker 3: give people who are here, who are following the law
Speaker 3: work permits. Why is that? What's wrong with that?
Speaker 8: Well, for one thing, because they are not currently here
Speaker 8: legally and we should have been enforcing the law long
Speaker 8: and we can do that now. For a second thing,
Speaker 8: because the exact work start competing.
Speaker 3: We've built the wrong system. Nobody else coming in, but
Speaker 3: the people here now are going to give them work
Speaker 3: permits and anybody who hires somebody illegally, like you're getting
Speaker 3: significant consequences.
Speaker 8: Yeah, well, because a lot of the problem is that
Speaker 8: the exact class of people who these workers are competing
Speaker 8: with are the ones who have seen a very weak
Speaker 8: job market for a very long time, in part because
Speaker 8: of this competition, and we should be trying to tighten
Speaker 8: that job market aggressively. People in the upper half of
Speaker 8: the income distribution, people with college degrees. And this is
Speaker 8: again where we've had this divergence society. You know, take
Speaker 8: for granted that this stuff is all fine. We should
Speaker 8: want the same kind of experience in the job market
Speaker 8: for the construction worker that you or I get to experience,
Speaker 8: and that requires a much tighter job market than we
Speaker 8: have had. And so, you know, to some extent, I
Speaker 8: guess I even question your premise that, you know, housing
Speaker 8: construction come to a stop. I think one thing we
Speaker 8: can do. If you want to say, you know, we
Speaker 8: need a transition period, we need to phase this out
Speaker 8: over a few years, that's fine. But the endpoint should
Speaker 8: be essentially where we started here, which is that citizenship
Speaker 8: is about the American citizens. That is who this republic
Speaker 8: exists for. That is who formed the Republic and the
Speaker 8: question is what is the set of policies that's going
Speaker 8: to serve them best.
Speaker 3: And my point you got to transition to it, and
Speaker 3: what we're doing now isn't actually going to transition to that.
Speaker 7: I don't think we'll probably have to leave it there.
Speaker 7: But thank you so much, oron cast the American Compass.
Speaker 7: That was a really interesting conversation. We appreciate it. Folks
Speaker 7: can check out the new project in Commonplace on the
Speaker 7: Compass website.
Speaker 6: Thanks for thank you guys.
Speaker 4: Well that does it for us.
Speaker 7: In today's edition of Breaking Points, we apologize the show
Speaker 7: is going to hit premium subs in boxes a little
Speaker 7: bit late because we had such a great conversation with
Speaker 7: oron casts.
Speaker 4: Our producers were like rap rap, but we wanted to
Speaker 4: just no. I thought it was great.
Speaker 7: I didn't want to disrupt the flow of that. But
Speaker 7: thank you everyone so much for joining us today. We
Speaker 7: appreciate it, and we run and I'll be back Friday
Speaker 7: with I think Crystal and Griffin.
Speaker 3: All right, see you then.