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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references

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Speaker 1: to sexual assault.

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Speaker 2: Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 3: What's interesting about these cases is it's people killed in pairs,

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Speaker 3: which is a very rare occurrence that you have a

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Speaker 3: serial killer who focuses on killing two people at a time.

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Speaker 3: It also is remarkable because it's unsolved.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked on Exactly Right. I've

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Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've

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Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home

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Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've

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Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we

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Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have

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Speaker 1: never been published. Wicked Words is about the choices that writers.

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Speaker 2: Make, good and bad.

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Speaker 1: It's a deep into the stories behind the stories.

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Speaker 3: My name is Blaine Pardo.

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Speaker 4: He and his daughter wrote a book about the Colonial

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Speaker 4: Parkway murders. This is a serial killer who murdered four

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Speaker 4: couples along a desolate stretch of road in the nineteen eighties.

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Speaker 4: Blaine and I talked when I was on assignment for

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Speaker 4: tenfold More Wicked in Gloucester, Virginia, which is about thirty

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Speaker 4: minutes away from where the murders took place.

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Speaker 3: I'm a kid from the eighties, you know, that was

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Speaker 3: my time era, seventies and eighties, and this was a

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Speaker 3: crime that took place in the eighties, So it resonates

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Speaker 3: with me. You're really focused in the Williamsburg area, Yorktown area.

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Speaker 2: So nineteen eighties.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, in this area of cell phones, we've got people

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Speaker 1: not wearing seat belts all the time.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it's a different era completely, and I think

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Speaker 3: law enforcement's very different too. The Colonial Parkway was a

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Speaker 3: party place. That's where people went to buy drugs, and

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Speaker 3: a lot of teenagers just went out there a party

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Speaker 3: and do what teenagers have always done.

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Speaker 1: But this is a major highway. When they say that,

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Speaker 1: that's what I'm.

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Speaker 3: Thinking, Well, the Colonial Parkway's misnomer. A lot of people

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Speaker 3: kind of think of it that way because when you

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Speaker 3: look at it on the map, it's a twenty three

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Speaker 3: mile road and it connects Williamsburg with Jamestown and with Yorktown.

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Speaker 3: But it's an old slow road. When you're out on

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Speaker 3: that road, it's paved very differently. It's paved with a

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Speaker 3: rough gravel to simulate a colonial road. It's patrolled by

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Speaker 3: the Park Service. It's the longest, narrowest national park in

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Speaker 3: the country. There's no visible lights, there's no gas stations.

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Speaker 3: There's the pull off areas are strictly there for scenic views.

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Speaker 3: The parkway itself is a creepy, isolated place. During the daytime,

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Speaker 3: it's a beautiful corridor of trees that you drive through

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Speaker 3: to get to Williamsburg. It's wonderful. We love taking it

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Speaker 3: at night. It's this dark tunnel. There's no street lights,

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Speaker 3: there's no ambient light. You can't even see the houses

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Speaker 3: that are nearby because the parkway obscures them deliberately.

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Speaker 2: So people do live out there, just sort of set back.

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Speaker 2: I'm assuming in the tree.

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Speaker 3: There's subdivisions that come up where their backyards kind of

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Speaker 3: butt up to the park list.

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Speaker 2: This was true in the eighties.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, but you wouldn't see them, you know. It

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Speaker 3: just it's literally an obscured view. They tried to really

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Speaker 3: recreate what the road was like during the seventeen hundreds,

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Speaker 3: so it was really designed by its very nature to

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Speaker 3: be very isolated.

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Speaker 2: It sounds fantastic and terrible at the same time.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I loved going on there and still

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Speaker 3: do during the daytime. But having done this book, we

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Speaker 3: went out several times on the anniversaries of the crimes

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Speaker 3: and went to the crime scenes at dark, and we've

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Speaker 3: just kind of come to the conclusion it's a very

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Speaker 3: scary place because the way the road's paved, you hear

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Speaker 3: that when a car comes, you hear a distant rumble

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Speaker 3: coming down the road, and the headlights there's a lot

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Speaker 3: of turns and snakes. You don't see the headlights until

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Speaker 3: they're right on top of you, and you really get

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Speaker 3: to feel it. That hasn't changed much from the time

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Speaker 3: that the crimes took place. That road is pretty much

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Speaker 3: maintained as is. It's almost preserved as a snapshot in time.

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Speaker 3: The first two victims are fascinating in this because they

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Speaker 3: are lesbian couple. One is Kathy Thomas. Now. Kathy graduate

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Speaker 3: in the second class to ever graduate with females from

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Speaker 3: the United States Naval Academy, so she was kind of

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Speaker 3: a pioneer in many respects. She served at sea, which

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Speaker 3: was a rarity for a lot of women, and she

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Speaker 3: really wanted a combat role, but in the nineteen eighties,

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Speaker 3: putting women in combat ships wasn't a thing that was done.

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Speaker 3: You also have to bear in mind in the nineteen eighties,

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Speaker 3: her being gay was kept very secret because that was

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Speaker 3: a reason to have someone's security clearance revoked. Oh wow,

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Speaker 3: it was considered something you could be blackmailed for. There

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Speaker 3: was such a stigma attached to it. She left the Navy,

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Speaker 3: became a stockbroker in the Virginia Beach area and was

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Speaker 3: very successful in what she was doing. She had a

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Speaker 3: number of friends at the College William and Mary, which

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Speaker 3: is in Williamsburg, and was introduced to Rebecca Dowski. Now

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Speaker 3: Rebecca was a student there. They had formed a relationship

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Speaker 3: with each other and had become very close. They were

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Speaker 3: last seen together at a computer lab working on a

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Speaker 3: computer program. This is back in the days when we

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Speaker 3: didn't have laptops and stuff. You had to go to

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Speaker 3: a special room. You had a dedicated CRT terminal and

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Speaker 3: you worked at it. They were working on helping someone

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Speaker 3: with a homework assignment, and the two of them left

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Speaker 3: to go get dinner. They were going to be going

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Speaker 3: back for Columbus Day. Rebecca had plans to go home

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Speaker 3: to Upstate New York and Kathy had plans to go

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Speaker 3: back to work, so they were literally going out for

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Speaker 3: a dinner. It is presumed that they may have gone,

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Speaker 3: as they had done before, to the Colonial Parkway for

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Speaker 3: some private, intimate time.

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Speaker 1: They have made it a habit to go out to

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Speaker 1: the Colonial Parkway to be alone.

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Speaker 2: Essentially.

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Speaker 3: Essentially, that's the working theory is that there's a number

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Speaker 3: of pulloffs on the Colonial Parkway that are picnic areas

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Speaker 3: during the day, parking areas during the evening, and they

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Speaker 3: had been known to do this. They had been known

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Speaker 3: to go off and to use the Colonial Parkway as

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Speaker 3: a place where they could go, and it made sense

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Speaker 3: given the proximity to the college. Whatever happened happened on

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Speaker 3: October ninth, late in the evening, they were approached by

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Speaker 3: a person or persons. We don't know if this is

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Speaker 3: a single serial killer too. My daughter and I, who's

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Speaker 3: my co author, we disagree.

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Speaker 2: On this point, but don't tell me yet. Who thinks what.

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Speaker 3: She claims I'm wrong. I claim she's wrong, of course,

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Speaker 3: so well, but when you look at what happened they

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Speaker 3: were taken from the vehicle and tied up, and so

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Speaker 3: they were tied with their hands behind their back. Kathy

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Speaker 3: Thomas was nearly decapitated with an incredibly sharp knife and strangled.

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Speaker 3: Rebecca was as well, strangled with a piece of cord.

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Speaker 3: They were then placed in the Honda Civic that they

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Speaker 3: were in. It was Kathy's car, and whoever the killer

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Speaker 3: was doused it with diesel fuel and tried to set

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Speaker 3: it on fire. Now a lot of people don't realize this,

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Speaker 3: but you can't just light a match, throw it on

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Speaker 3: diesel fuel and it lights up. Diesel fuel has a

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Speaker 3: higher ignition point than just fire. So they found a

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Speaker 3: number of matches where somebody had tried to light the

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Speaker 3: vehicle on fire and they had failed. So when that

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Speaker 3: all failed, they pushed the vehicle over into the York

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Speaker 3: River and it went over the embankment and went nose down.

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Speaker 3: It's a small car and the embankment's about a twelve

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Speaker 3: to fifteen foot embankment. At the time, the car literally

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Speaker 3: kind of disappeared over the edge, but it didn't fall

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Speaker 3: into the river. So if you were on the opposite

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Speaker 3: side of the river, you would have seen a car

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Speaker 3: partially down. No, it didn't even reach the river. It

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Speaker 3: hit a muddy bank at the bottom.

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Speaker 2: That must have been very frustrating for him, and.

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Speaker 3: It had to have been bear remie. He's trying to

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Speaker 3: obscure the evidence. He's trying to destroy the vehicle. First,

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Speaker 3: that fails, then he pushes the vehicle over the edge.

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Speaker 3: It took about three days before a jogger spotted the

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Speaker 3: vehicle called the park police. They smashed the rear window,

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Speaker 3: which is unfortunate because whoever was pushing that vehicle was

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Speaker 3: probably pushing that rear window because they saw two bodies

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Speaker 3: inside and didn't realize they.

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Speaker 2: Were dead, so they were trying to rescue them.

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Speaker 3: They were trying to execute a rescue. They pulled them

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Speaker 3: from there. Now, because the Colonial Parkway is federal property,

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Speaker 3: it's a National park, the Park Service has jurisdiction, but

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Speaker 3: they don't investigate murders. That's the FBI. At that point,

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Speaker 3: the FBI became involved, and unfortunately, what they focused on

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Speaker 3: was the fact that this was a lesbian relationship. Remember

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Speaker 3: this is old school FBI. We're talking black suits, black ties,

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Speaker 3: white shirts, male male. Yeah, there were no females, and

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Speaker 3: they really focused on the lesbian relationships and really thought

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Speaker 3: this might have been a lover's triangle type thing, something

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Speaker 3: along those lines.

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Speaker 2: So they thought a woman would come.

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Speaker 3: And one of their friends.

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Speaker 2: Nearly decapitate them.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is someone who's literally brought two different weapons, right,

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Speaker 1: like a cord to strangle Rebecca with and then a

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Speaker 1: knife to cut Kathy's head off.

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Speaker 2: Sexual assault or no.

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Speaker 3: None at that was identified at the time. Okay, the

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Speaker 3: FBI really focused on that. So they focused on their

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Speaker 3: inner circle of friends who were also gay, really split

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Speaker 3: that group up, kind of turned that group against each other.

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Speaker 3: And it turns out that was a waste of time.

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Speaker 2: Isn't that.

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Speaker 1: As a cop, what you do is, you know, investigators

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Speaker 1: look at the inner circle first and then go out.

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Speaker 3: It makes sense, but when you go out once you

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Speaker 3: realize that's a dead end. They didn't have anything, and

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Speaker 3: that really caused some problems and you got your mind.

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Speaker 3: Nineteen eighty six, the concept of profiling was pretty new

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Speaker 3: at that point.

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Speaker 1: Behavioral Science unit at the FBI was only about a

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Speaker 1: decade old at that point, and they had only coined

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Speaker 1: the phrase serial killer in the mid seventies.

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Speaker 3: Correct, So you're looking at something that wasn't really known.

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Speaker 3: They thought it might be a waterman. And bear in

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Speaker 3: mind the clues there are the diesel fuel and a

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Speaker 3: sharp cutting knife, which would have you know diesel fuel

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Speaker 3: is often used for boat fuel.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so now go back for those of us who

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Speaker 1: are landlocked in Texas.

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Speaker 2: What is a waterman?

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Speaker 3: Well, it's an interesting culture here in the York River

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Speaker 3: area and along the James River area. These are folks

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Speaker 3: that are fishermen or crabbers or whatever who work the water.

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Speaker 3: They have their own little dialect, their own way of speaking.

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Speaker 3: They're a very closed community. A lot of them are loaners,

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Speaker 3: and they operate well off the grid. It sounds like

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Speaker 3: kind of I'll admit it. I went down and tried

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Speaker 3: to engage with some of them, and you know, they're

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Speaker 3: not going to engage with somebody on their culture independent operators,

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Speaker 3: and the thought was maybe it's one of those. But again,

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Speaker 3: they couldn't find anyone that really fell into that Niche.

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Speaker 1: Tell me the physical evidence that they have so far

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Speaker 1: with this case.

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Speaker 3: Whoever handled the bodies had to have picked them up

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Speaker 3: and put them in the vehicles. We don't know where

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Speaker 3: they were actually killed. There would have been a lot

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Speaker 3: of blood splatter on the ground, but it was three

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Speaker 3: days before the bodies were found and it had been raining,

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Speaker 3: so we don't know physically where they were killed. So

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Speaker 3: they may have been driven to this particular spot on

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Speaker 3: the parkway from a different spot, or they may have

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Speaker 3: been killed right there. We don't know.

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Speaker 1: Did the ladies have a favorite spot that they would

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Speaker 1: go to.

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Speaker 3: No one knew which one that was.

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Speaker 1: Was there a thought from the FBI that one of

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Speaker 1: them was brutalized more than the other, Kathy with the decapitation,

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Speaker 1: and maybe that's where the lover's triangle came in. I'm

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Speaker 1: assuming that it was more personal with Kathy, although I

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Speaker 1: got to tell you strangulation is about as personal as

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Speaker 1: you get.

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Speaker 3: I agree. I think that is a factor and could

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Speaker 3: be a factor into what triggered this, but we don't

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Speaker 3: know for sure. Could be that Kathy fought back harder

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Speaker 3: and maybe that irritated the person. We don't know, because

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Speaker 3: we're trying to get into the mind to somebody that

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Speaker 3: we haven't caught yet. Yea, you know, and pinned down.

240
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Speaker 3: What happens at this point is the investigation stalls. We've

241
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Speaker 3: all seen the show first forty eight. You don't get

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Speaker 3: him in the first forty eight hours, you start losing

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Speaker 3: your evidence and your trails. And that's kind of what

244
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Speaker 3: happened with this case. Whoever the killer was physically had

245
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Speaker 3: to put the bodies in the car, they had to

246
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Speaker 3: have left trace DNA. Now bear in mind, nineteen eighty six,

247
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Speaker 3: DNA wasn't a science that was being utilized soft crimes.

248
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Speaker 3: But now we have the techniques with them VACK and

249
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Speaker 3: with some of these new technologies to go back to

250
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Speaker 3: those articles of clothing and see what we could pick up.

251
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Speaker 3: The killer handled the rope. They have the rope, and

252
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Speaker 3: it's that plastic clothesline type rope from the nineteen seventies

253
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Speaker 3: and eighties. You know, it's kind of a nylon with

254
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Speaker 3: a covering over it. So there is ample evidence there

255
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Speaker 3: with that first crime.

256
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Speaker 1: But no weapon, no weapon, no, So he left the rope,

257
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Speaker 1: but he took the sharp object that which just sounds

258
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Speaker 1: like a machete probably or something like.

259
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Speaker 3: You know, I don't think it was a machete from

260
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Speaker 3: the description, And somebody turned into machete a couple of

261
00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,400
Speaker 3: years ago that they found and the FBI said, this

262
00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:11,720
Speaker 3: is not consistent with The weapon used, whatever it was,

263
00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:13,839
Speaker 3: was a very sharp knife. Note could have been a

264
00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:18,200
Speaker 3: hunting knife, tactical knife, fisherman's knife, you don't.

265
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Speaker 1: Know, Yeah, like a filet knife almost, But you have

266
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Speaker 1: to be really strong to be able to almost decapitate someone,

267
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Speaker 1: especially I'm presuming Kathy was probably pretty physically fit.

268
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Speaker 3: Absolutely she was being a graduate of the Naval Academy.

269
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Speaker 3: You don't come out of there without athletics.

270
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Speaker 1: So what are the families of these two women saying.

271
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Speaker 1: Are they trying to pressure the FBI?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, both families want to know what's happened. But you know,

273
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Speaker 3: as was common back then, when cases went cold, they

274
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Speaker 3: just went cold. The FBI definitely wanted to solve it.

275
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Speaker 3: I've talked to some of the former investigators. They were

276
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Speaker 3: desperate to solve the case, but they didn't have tangible

277
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Speaker 3: needs to work off of. And once you got past

278
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Speaker 3: where the physical evidence could take you, it comes down

279
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Speaker 3: to today by see anything, and unfortunately no one did.

280
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Speaker 1: So the things that are working for this killer are

281
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Speaker 1: no witnesses because it's so dark, it doesn't sound like

282
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Speaker 1: anybody even saw another vehicle pull up, right, And the

283
00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:17,920
Speaker 1: fact that these women had a kind of an unpredictable schedule,

284
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Speaker 1: and no one even knew that they were going out

285
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Speaker 1: there because it was anonymity for them. No physical evidence,

286
00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:27,720
Speaker 1: despite the fact that the bodies weren't submerged, so it's

287
00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:28,400
Speaker 1: gone cold.

288
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Speaker 2: It's eighty six. That probably took a couple of months.

289
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Speaker 3: Well what happens is nothing really occurs again until September

290
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Speaker 3: of nineteen eighty seven. You know, that's David Nobling and

291
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Speaker 3: Robin Edwards. And David Nobling guy in his twenties. He

292
00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,360
Speaker 3: had gotten a young girl pregnant, but you know, it

293
00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:46,640
Speaker 3: was straightening out his life, was getting ready to start

294
00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,400
Speaker 3: a new job the following Monday before he was the

295
00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,040
Speaker 3: Monday before he was killed. David had had some rough

296
00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,200
Speaker 3: and tumble times, but he was straightening out his life,

297
00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,320
Speaker 3: and really I think was kind of like we all

298
00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:00,760
Speaker 3: are in our early twenties, trying to figure out where

299
00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,040
Speaker 3: you're going to go. And once he kind of figured

300
00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:05,000
Speaker 3: it out, he was getting ready to move forward. Now

301
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,240
Speaker 3: he had met Robin Edwards. She was a hard child

302
00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:10,520
Speaker 3: to raise, was the best way to put it. She

303
00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:14,800
Speaker 3: was a runaway. She had had run ins with law enforcement, etc.

304
00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:17,760
Speaker 3: Younger kid. I mean, we're talking to somebody who's fourteen

305
00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:19,560
Speaker 3: years old. David's in his twenties.

306
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Speaker 1: Wow.

307
00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,120
Speaker 3: He had met her because his cousin was going on

308
00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:28,040
Speaker 3: a date with her, and basically David drove Somehow during

309
00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:29,920
Speaker 3: the date, the two of them had agreed to get

310
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Speaker 3: together later in the evening. We don't know for sure

311
00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:38,200
Speaker 3: what the arrangement was, but apparently around eleven thirty in

312
00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:40,880
Speaker 3: the evening, after the date was over, David pulled up

313
00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,080
Speaker 3: out in front of Robin's house. She climbed out a

314
00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,080
Speaker 3: window and went over and joined him in his truck.

315
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Speaker 1: So she liked David more than she liked his cousin, right,

316
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Speaker 1: oh boy, Okay, but we don't.

317
00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:53,720
Speaker 3: Know what the nature of their relationship was. They went

318
00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,640
Speaker 3: to a place called Dragged Island, which is the creepiest

319
00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:58,600
Speaker 3: darn place I've ever been to.

320
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Speaker 2: Ragged Island.

321
00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,080
Speaker 3: Ragged Island, it's a known drug area right on the

322
00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:06,960
Speaker 3: banks of the James River. It's a wildlife for refuge.

323
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,359
Speaker 3: You pull up and the sign's got a big shotgun

324
00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:13,480
Speaker 3: hole in it. It is a very creepy wildlife preserve

325
00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,280
Speaker 3: and it's a swamp. To be perfectly honest with you,

326
00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,560
Speaker 3: there's a parking area there's an area where you can

327
00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:20,480
Speaker 3: walk down to the river, and the rest of it

328
00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,160
Speaker 3: is kind of a swampy area depending on how much

329
00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,840
Speaker 3: rain we've had. Literally there's a wooden walkway that goes

330
00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,960
Speaker 3: back a mile to take you to a small beach area,

331
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Speaker 3: but that wouldn't walkways there because it's swampy on both sides.

332
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Speaker 3: So if you step off that wooden walkway, you're up

333
00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,200
Speaker 3: to your knees and muck. What we do know for

334
00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:44,080
Speaker 3: a fact is that David Nobling's truck is found, and

335
00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,680
Speaker 3: when it's found, the door is ajar, the headlights are on,

336
00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,480
Speaker 3: and the radio is playing. The keys have been turned

337
00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:54,200
Speaker 3: to the accessory position, which you do to play music,

338
00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,000
Speaker 3: and he had a very nice area system and the

339
00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,920
Speaker 3: music was playing. Initially, their bodies aren't found. It took

340
00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,040
Speaker 3: a search of the area and they were found along

341
00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:05,560
Speaker 3: the banks of the James River. David had been shot

342
00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:07,800
Speaker 3: in the shoulder and in the back of the head,

343
00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:12,720
Speaker 3: shot shot Okay Robin had been shot once execution style

344
00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:15,760
Speaker 3: on the back of the head. The supposition was they

345
00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:20,080
Speaker 3: had probably been parking and the killer had interrupted them

346
00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:22,359
Speaker 3: got them out of the vehicle. Because David shot in

347
00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,359
Speaker 3: the shoulder. He must have struggled with the killer, either

348
00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,920
Speaker 3: to get away or to try to help Robin or something.

349
00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:31,640
Speaker 3: Shot in the shoulder and then shot in the back

350
00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:33,440
Speaker 3: of the head, because wouldn't shot somebody in the shoulder

351
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,560
Speaker 3: after you shot them in the back of the head, right.

352
00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:38,520
Speaker 2: So he was he turned to run probably.

353
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Speaker 3: I don't want to the family is very sensitive about that.

354
00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:42,600
Speaker 3: I would think that he would try to protect her,

355
00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:44,840
Speaker 3: But I also think there's a certain amount of instinct

356
00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:46,679
Speaker 3: where he may have tried to run, but there was

357
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:50,359
Speaker 3: nowhere to run. Their bodies were found several days later,

358
00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:54,320
Speaker 3: so it was the usual decomposition that takes place with.

359
00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:55,479
Speaker 2: That swampy area.

360
00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:57,960
Speaker 3: Their clothes are all found.

361
00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,000
Speaker 2: In the vehicle, so they had no clothes.

362
00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:03,320
Speaker 3: Well, they would strip down to like underwear, so their

363
00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,600
Speaker 3: outer clothes were in the vehicle. If it is the

364
00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:08,280
Speaker 3: same killer, he's also now.

365
00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:10,320
Speaker 2: Carrying a gun, big gun or small gun.

366
00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:15,480
Speaker 3: I believe it was thirty eight Okay, so something it's

367
00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:17,840
Speaker 3: going to have a kick. We don't have any evidence

368
00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,080
Speaker 3: of rope, but what we do have that's a little

369
00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:22,480
Speaker 3: bit interesting is the staging of the vehicle. So the

370
00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:24,960
Speaker 3: vehicle's left with the headlights on, the radio on. The

371
00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:27,520
Speaker 3: keys are turned to accessories. And I was talking with

372
00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,520
Speaker 3: his brother, Michael Knobling, who lives in the area, and

373
00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,000
Speaker 3: Michael said, that doesn't make any sense. He said, because

374
00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:35,880
Speaker 3: I helped him wire that vehicle, and he had wired

375
00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,399
Speaker 3: the stereo directly to the battery, so you could just

376
00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:40,800
Speaker 3: turn it on. You didn't have to turn the keys

377
00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:41,560
Speaker 3: to accessory.

378
00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:42,600
Speaker 2: The killer did that.

379
00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:44,880
Speaker 3: The killer did it. The killer did it and left

380
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:47,960
Speaker 3: the door ajar and left the keys in the vehicle

381
00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:51,560
Speaker 3: so that someone would take the vehicle. He was drawing

382
00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,480
Speaker 3: attention to a vehicle, Oh wow.

383
00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:56,720
Speaker 1: Because the bodies were hidden, So it wasn't that he

384
00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,600
Speaker 1: wanted the bodies discovered because they were hidden so well.

385
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:03,160
Speaker 3: He wanted somebody else to pick up the vehicle, steal it,

386
00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,000
Speaker 3: and then they're implicated in the murders when the bodies

387
00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:06,640
Speaker 3: are found.

388
00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:08,480
Speaker 2: That's smart, but it's really remote.

389
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:12,199
Speaker 3: Given that area, it had a horrible reputation. When I

390
00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:14,560
Speaker 3: went out to visit it for the first time, I

391
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:18,080
Speaker 3: couldn't find the entrance to a highway. Guy that takes

392
00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:20,360
Speaker 3: care of vehicles with flats and stuff pulled up said,

393
00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:21,760
Speaker 3: do you have some problem? I said, no, I'm looking

394
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:23,919
Speaker 3: for Ragged Island. He goes, so, you're out here to

395
00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:28,320
Speaker 3: either get weed or a blowjob, and I said, no, neither. No,

396
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:29,840
Speaker 3: I'm just out here to look, and he goes, well,

397
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,240
Speaker 3: that's what Ragged Island's known for, so you know it,

398
00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,560
Speaker 3: even still today, Kai has that weird little stigma attached

399
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:37,040
Speaker 3: to it. And I got to tell you, my daughter

400
00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,119
Speaker 3: and I've been out there a few times and it

401
00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:39,960
Speaker 3: is creepy.

402
00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:41,440
Speaker 2: Is it patrolled ever?

403
00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,600
Speaker 3: No, it's right next to the James River Bridge. It's

404
00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,840
Speaker 3: literally the James River Bridge is ten feet away.

405
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,480
Speaker 1: How far away are these two crime scenes, the one

406
00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:51,280
Speaker 1: a year earlier?

407
00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:56,560
Speaker 3: We are talking around twelve miles okay close, So they're close.

408
00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,080
Speaker 1: So this is someone who knows the area. There's no

409
00:19:59,119 --> 00:19:59,760
Speaker 1: doubt about that.

410
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:04,600
Speaker 3: He knows the area and now is demonstrating some planning.

411
00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:07,520
Speaker 3: He's killed his victims. Most of the time a killer

412
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,080
Speaker 3: tries to immediately try to put as much distance between

413
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:12,320
Speaker 3: him and the crime as possible. This guy stage is

414
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,400
Speaker 3: the vehicle for theft. So he's hanging around and I'm

415
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,760
Speaker 3: going to graduately take some minute or so, but he's

416
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,440
Speaker 3: doing that. Unfortunately, the evidence with this crime is all

417
00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,439
Speaker 3: messed up because the police, when they find the truck

418
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,560
Speaker 3: tow it back to David's house. They don't know that

419
00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:30,360
Speaker 3: he's missing. As a matter of fact, they accidentally left

420
00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,359
Speaker 3: some of the fingerprint cards in the yard of the

421
00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:37,480
Speaker 3: Nobbling house the Nobblings found him. The chain of evidence

422
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:38,640
Speaker 3: was bad.

423
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,200
Speaker 1: And Dcomp was so bad that you probably couldn't get

424
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:43,280
Speaker 1: any samples off of her to see if it was

425
00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:44,120
Speaker 1: a sex assault.

426
00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:46,760
Speaker 3: There's nothing at that point that they could have done.

427
00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,960
Speaker 3: We don't have a great deal of evidence, but we

428
00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,359
Speaker 3: do now know that the killers, if it is the

429
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:53,960
Speaker 3: same killer as using a god.

430
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,040
Speaker 1: So we think that the killer was trying to attract

431
00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,040
Speaker 1: a drug user to take this truck.

432
00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:02,840
Speaker 3: Somebody, and given where Ragged Island is, it would have

433
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,280
Speaker 3: been a drug user or somebody pulling in there. And

434
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:08,960
Speaker 3: if they saw an abandoned vehicle with the lights on

435
00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,720
Speaker 3: and the radio playing and the keys there, you know

436
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:13,600
Speaker 3: he's hoping someone's going to take it.

437
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,200
Speaker 2: How did he know that a couple would be there?

438
00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:17,240
Speaker 2: Though I don't know.

439
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,040
Speaker 1: They probably hit a brick wall within the first week or.

440
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:39,800
Speaker 2: So, I'm assuming absolutely.

441
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:44,359
Speaker 3: It was a horrible situation across the board you know nowadays,

442
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,320
Speaker 3: when they're searching for a body and they find them,

443
00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,280
Speaker 3: they make an extra step to inform the families, say

444
00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:53,119
Speaker 3: we found them. Families found out watching live TV news

445
00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:57,200
Speaker 3: when a helicopter's flying over and photographing the dead bodies

446
00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,159
Speaker 3: on the beach. The search was horrible. Michael Naba, his

447
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,080
Speaker 3: father actually put on waiters and went out there because

448
00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,040
Speaker 3: the police weren't doing it, and he was there on

449
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,679
Speaker 3: the scene when they found his son. The preservation of

450
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 3: the crime scene in period was horrible.

451
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,080
Speaker 2: They connecting Kathy Rebecca to David and Rabbin.

452
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 3: No, at this point, no one has coined the phrase

453
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,520
Speaker 3: Colonial Parkway murders. Nobody is going, hey, this is another

454
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:22,080
Speaker 3: couple and it's a year.

455
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:23,480
Speaker 2: Later, close proximity.

456
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, no one's making that connection. But I attribute that

457
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,000
Speaker 3: to the time. You know, serial killings were really rare.

458
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:33,840
Speaker 3: We know that, we know now we're learning that they

459
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,840
Speaker 3: happened all the time, But you know, we weren't making

460
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:38,399
Speaker 3: those kinds of connections.

461
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:40,800
Speaker 1: I wonder why that is. I think about that often,

462
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:42,160
Speaker 1: why we don't make those connections.

463
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:43,639
Speaker 3: You got to bear in mind we live now in

464
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 3: a twenty four hour news cycle, so the capability to

465
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,960
Speaker 3: make those connections is instant, and it's in our face,

466
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:50,719
Speaker 3: constant light.

467
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 1: And I think jurisdictions are now more used to sharing

468
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,680
Speaker 1: information and there's CODIS and you know, all these different systems,

469
00:22:57,760 --> 00:22:59,280
Speaker 1: so you just don't get.

470
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 3: That in the eighties. In the eighties, it was, yeah,

471
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,360
Speaker 3: we've got a couple that's killed over here, so what.

472
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 2: That's so unusual?

473
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,359
Speaker 1: Though, I know that happened in September of eighty seven,

474
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:11,480
Speaker 1: so this is a year off in between.

475
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 2: If this is the same guy.

476
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 3: If it's the same guy, okay. So now we moved

477
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:17,679
Speaker 3: to the third couple, which is the one that I

478
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 3: find probably was the killer's best crime because we don't

479
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:27,120
Speaker 3: have bodies, okay, and that is Cassandra Haley and Keith

480
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,680
Speaker 3: call This is in April of eighty.

481
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 2: Eight, so he's speeding up a little bit, a little bit.

482
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:36,359
Speaker 3: He's not entirely consistent. There are few trends though so

483
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 3: far these murders have always taken place on weekends, which

484
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,160
Speaker 3: tells you something about the killer. He has a full

485
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 3: time job. Keith and Cassandra it was a fluke that

486
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,359
Speaker 3: they were even together that night. Keith had temporarily broken

487
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 3: up with his longtime girlfriend. They were planning on getting

488
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,200
Speaker 3: back together. Oh no, they had done this before, and

489
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 3: it's just kind of a cooling off period, reminding me

490
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,440
Speaker 3: of Ross and Rachel on Friends. You know, we were

491
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 3: on a broad break. Cassandra had been dating a young

492
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 3: man who went on to become a professional football player.

493
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,440
Speaker 3: She wasn't looking to get into a relationship. They both

494
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,640
Speaker 3: attended Christopher Newport, which is a local community college. They

495
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 3: met decided they go to a party together, so Keith

496
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:18,919
Speaker 3: went and picked her up in his car and they

497
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,200
Speaker 3: went to a party off campus, which is a small

498
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 3: apartment building. They were seen at the party by everyone,

499
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 3: but they weren't together. It's not like they were cuddling

500
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 3: together or whatever. Keith was over talking to a friend

501
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 3: of his girlfriends, saying how he was looking forward to

502
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,359
Speaker 3: getting back together with his girlfriend, and Cassandra was talking

503
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 3: with some people she knew at the party. They weren't

504
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 3: even close, and Keith had promised to bring her home

505
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 3: in the early morning hours and they left prior to

506
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 3: I believe two o'clock, fifteen minutes before her curfew time

507
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 3: to get her home because he's a responsible young man

508
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 3: and it was only a ten minute trip to take

509
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,919
Speaker 3: her home, and so he took off. They left and

510
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 3: were never seen again. Their car is found on the

511
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 3: Colonial Parkway less than a mile from where the first

512
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:06,120
Speaker 3: car is.

513
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 2: Found, less a while from Kathy and Rebecca.

514
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 1: Yes, and eleven to thirteen miles from David and Rome.

515
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 3: Yeah. You know what's interesting is in the car is

516
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 3: most of their clothing, their wallets, and the keys are

517
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 3: laid out in plain view. The car door is left open. Now,

518
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,680
Speaker 3: what's really interesting is Keith's brother was coming back from

519
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 3: Richmond and driving on the Colonial Parkway that night and

520
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 3: actually drove by his brother's car, and he saw a

521
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 3: van and he saw what he thought was Keith's car

522
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 3: with the door open. Didn't think much of it. The

523
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 3: van was there and the van followed him for a

524
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 3: short distance. His father worked at the Budweiser Brewery in

525
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 3: Williamsburg and lived over in this area in Gloucester, drove

526
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 3: right past the car. He saw it and stopped. When

527
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 3: he looked in the car, he didn't see anything out

528
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 3: of the ordinary. What had happened in the interim is

529
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 3: the park police had found it, gathered up all of

530
00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,919
Speaker 3: the clothing, took it to try to figure out who

531
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 3: the kids where. They assumed some kids were out skinny dipping.

532
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 3: Now I'm going to tell you it's April in Virginia.

533
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,959
Speaker 3: I've been out there in April, comparable weather. Nobody in

534
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 3: the right mind would have thought these kids went skinny dipping.

535
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,199
Speaker 3: But they literally told the local newspapers, Oh, yeah, these

536
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 3: kids probably went skinny dipping, and nothing to worry about here.

537
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 3: When they realized that the kids were missing, they went

538
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 3: back and restaged the vehicle the park police did. They

539
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 3: put all the stuff back where they thought it was,

540
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:34,119
Speaker 3: so at this point any fingerprints and stuff are hopelessly lost.

541
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 3: Now the FBI finds out about it on the radio,

542
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 3: and the FBI goes, okay, wait a minute, this is

543
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 3: a mile from where we just had a pair of

544
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 3: people be murdered. These are probably connected. So this is

545
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 3: the first time that people start going whoa, whoa, whoa.

546
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 3: Someone's killing pairs of people.

547
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 2: And this was seven months from David and rawmen. Right, Okay, So.

548
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 3: They went and they did an exhaustive search of the

549
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,159
Speaker 3: York River because she was a killer, and dumped the

550
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 3: bodies there. And these kids were naked. Having somebody without

551
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 3: their clothes is a way you can control them, especially

552
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 3: their shoes. When you take somebody's shoes, killers can maintain

553
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 3: control of them. It's harder to run away.

554
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 2: But did that happen with Kathy and Rebecca. No, they

555
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:16,640
Speaker 2: were fully clothed.

556
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 3: They were clothed. But the killer is getting better, and

557
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 3: so what we have isn't abandoned vehicle. Now they're searching

558
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 3: New York River. They actually find a dead body. It's

559
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,360
Speaker 3: not the one the ones are looking for. This guy

560
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 3: jumped off a ship up at the Naval weapons station

561
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 3: further upriver and been missing. They went back to their

562
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 3: waterman theory and they had the profiler working up and

563
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,439
Speaker 3: he said, whoever this is is very boisterous, and so

564
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 3: they'll be driving a large truck, probably jacked up.

565
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 2: Well, they had witnesses, say, a van, which seems the most.

566
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, the van. They couldn't find anybody else who'd seen it.

567
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 3: There's no other descriptions. They did narrow down to a

568
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 3: water a pair of brothers, one in particular, who had

569
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 3: some violent crimes, and they were staking them out, and

570
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,199
Speaker 3: they noticed that the watermen were out cleaning the interior

571
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 3: of the vehicle with bleach. Now they're also fishermen, so

572
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 3: this could be to remove fishmell from where I'm saying

573
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 3: they moved in. They polygraphed these guys. They used the

574
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 3: top polygrapher nation on them. Guys both cleared. The FBI

575
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 3: is stuck, and now more importantly, the media has connected

576
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 3: all three of these pairs of.

577
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 2: Murders after two years almost two years.

578
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, but and so the public pressure turns up. Now

579
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 3: the FBI forms a task force and they bring in

580
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 3: the Virginia State Police and a couple of law enforcement agencies.

581
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:36,679
Speaker 3: But they don't bring them all in, and there's a

582
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 3: lot of them, and it's not exactly a big sharing session.

583
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 3: It's more of who do you think could do it?

584
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 3: I always thought that was kind of a mistake on

585
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 3: the part of the FBI, because a lot of times

586
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 3: local law enforcement they got a pretty good handle as

587
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 3: to who the troublemakers are in their area that they

588
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 3: might want to concentrate on. It just wasn't a true

589
00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 3: task force the way we think of a task force now.

590
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 3: It was more of, hey, you know this is going on,

591
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 3: keep a surprised if you get tips or leads, let

592
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 3: us no type thing. Their bodies to this day have

593
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 3: not been found. We're trying to figure out how someone thinks.

594
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 3: If you look at the geography of this, they're at

595
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 3: a party and the Colonial Parkway is ten miles away,

596
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 3: but Cassandra's house is I think six. He's taking her home,

597
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 3: So whatever happened didn't happen on the Colonial Parkway.

598
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 2: Why is he so comfortable there?

599
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 3: I don't know, but if you think about it, he

600
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 3: was taking her home. He's not going to drive her

601
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 3: to the Colonial Parkway. Both of them, by the way,

602
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 3: didn't like going to the Parkway. It's not like they

603
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 3: were lovey devy all night and drinking and said let's

604
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 3: go make out. Cassandra had a fear of the Colonial Parkway.

605
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 3: That would have been the last place if Keith said

606
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 3: let's go make out. That didn't make sense. But the

607
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 3: police kind of focused on the car. Must have been

608
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 3: there for a reason. I think whatever happened happened between

609
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 3: the party and Cassandra's.

610
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 2: House, which was you said six miles away.

611
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 3: Yes, I think whatever happened, they were intercepted in that

612
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 3: piece of road because Keith was a conscientious kid. He

613
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 3: was taking her home in time for curfew. He made

614
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 3: a point of telling people that.

615
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: Are they trying to now cross reference people who knew

616
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 1: Kathy and Rebecca, David and Robin.

617
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 2: And Cassandra and Keith.

618
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 3: They try, but they can't.

619
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 2: They cannot find a common person.

620
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 3: Now, they do have a person that comes forward the

621
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 3: name of Ron Little. He's a weasily little fellow. He's

622
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 3: a personal security person, he calls himself and kind of

623
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 3: like a guy who does store security type things. And

624
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 3: he's tied in with a local law enforcement person who's

625
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 3: highly irreparable, Steve Blackman here in Gloucester County, and Blackman's

626
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 3: known to be a very violent person. And Ron kind

627
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 3: of does a weird interview with the local thorities saying,

628
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 3: I'm the primary suspect in this case.

629
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 2: He comes forward, You said, yeah.

630
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 3: He comes forward, and then he tells them media he's

631
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 3: the prime suspect. He ends up getting deported during all

632
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 3: of this because he's from New Zealand, and you know,

633
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 3: his passport wasn't up to date or his paperwork wasn't

634
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 3: up to date. He has ties to Steve Blackman. The

635
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 3: two of them are reportedly they are involved in the

636
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 3: drug trade. Blackman is just a thug he's like the

637
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 3: worst kind of cop that you can imagine from the

638
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 3: nineteen eighties. He beats people up. My daughter and I

639
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 3: get tips probably once a month, and there's always almost

640
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 3: the same thing. Have you taken a look at Steve Blackman.

641
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 3: We've taken a look at him, so as the FBI,

642
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 3: So I have a number of other law enforcement agencies.

643
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 3: So far, no one's been able to make connection. Just

644
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 3: because he's a bad cop doesn't mean he's a killer.

645
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 3: But everybody he's very comfortable with the fact that he

646
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 3: could have been the person doing it.

647
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: And if you've got a pair and the forensic psychologist

648
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: will say there's a dominant and then you know a submissive.

649
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: So it sounds like that dynamic would work between Steve

650
00:31:57,960 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 1: and Ron.

651
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, no one ever could tell them to it. I

652
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 3: think the park Police did a horrible job of managing

653
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 3: this crime scene.

654
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 2: So is this the last thing that happens with the Cassandra?

655
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

656
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 3: The FBI runs out of leads again, and there's now

657
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 3: kind of a public awareness that this is going on.

658
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 3: A lot of people have floated ideas it could be

659
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 3: somebody impersonating law enforcement. I did a search of the

660
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 3: records There are a number of people arrested in former

661
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 3: policemen's cars who were pretending to be cops, but those

662
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 3: people were all investigated and no one was ever into

663
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 3: the crimes. There's bits of the evidence that fit this.

664
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 3: In the case of Kathy's wallet in her vehicle, the

665
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 3: glove box is open, and the same is true with

666
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 3: Keith call as if they're getting registration. I have a

667
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 3: sneaky suspicion with Keith and Cassandra they were killed somewhere else.

668
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 3: Their bodies are somewhere else. Whoever the killer was, drove

669
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 3: their vehicle over to the Colonial Parkway and abandoned it.

670
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 2: Do you think he would do that?

671
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: Is it really tied to the hope that somebody is

672
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: going to take that vehicle?

673
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 3: And it's either that or he is trying desperately to

674
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 3: recreate what happened with that first murder and he wants

675
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 3: to be back on that Colonial Parkway one more time.

676
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 2: So is the FBI profiling this guy in any way?

677
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 3: Absolutely, they do believe it's a single person. And the

678
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 3: noveling case that he definitely lost control because he's had

679
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 3: to shoot him twice. He's tied these people up, he's

680
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 3: exercising a high degree control. If you had two people,

681
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 3: you wouldn't have lost control of David. You know when

682
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 3: this shooting him, you wouldn't have had to shoot him

683
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 3: in the shoulder because you'd have two people there, and

684
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 3: you'd probably have one on him. There's little tidbits that

685
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 3: kind of point to this. That's where my daughter and

686
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 3: I did. For my daughter's convinced it's got to be two.

687
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 3: The loss of control didn't mean much to her, But

688
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 3: to me, I think he lost control, and I don't

689
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 3: think he would have lost control.

690
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 2: Why do you think he's picking couples.

691
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 3: With a serial killer? They try to duplicate that experience

692
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 3: over and over and over again because they enjoyed the

693
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:12,240
Speaker 3: first experience so much. And in this case, he enjoyed

694
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 3: that experience on the Colonial Parkway so much that he's like, Okay,

695
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 3: I'm going to duplicate. I'll find another couple that got

696
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:20,840
Speaker 3: out of control and he shot them, and then he

697
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 3: gets a little bit better next one. He perfects it.

698
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,839
Speaker 3: Because we've never found the bodies of Keith and Cassandra.

699
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 2: Where is he? What happened?

700
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 1: He did this for a year and a half, three couples,

701
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: six people what.

702
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:32,439
Speaker 2: Happened to him.

703
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 3: He does one more set of crimes. The fourth set

704
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 3: of murders takes place on Labor Day weekend of nineteen

705
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 3: eighty nine.

706
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 2: Is the two year ish anniversary of David and Rawman.

707
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 3: Then it's very interesting because the Anna Maria Phelps and

708
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 3: Daniel Lauer knew each other, but didn't really know each

709
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 3: other closely. Daniel's brother lived out in Virginia Beach. He

710
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 3: was going to be moving in with him and his

711
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 3: wife to help them make rent and things. They had

712
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 3: taken Anna Maria Phelps down there. She down there and

713
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 3: just having a good time for the weekend. She was

714
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 3: living with Daniel's brother, and he said, well, I'm going

715
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 3: to go home get my stuff. They were from the

716
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 3: same hometown, which is just south of Richmond, and she said, well,

717
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 3: can I ride with you? Drop me off to see

718
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 3: my parents, go get your stuff, come pick me up.

719
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 3: I can go see my parents for a short time.

720
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:23,760
Speaker 3: The Labor Day weekend, they drive from Virginia Beach back

721
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 3: to the Richmond area. He also drops off a couple

722
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 3: that had been partying with them for the weekend, picks

723
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:33,240
Speaker 3: up Anna Maria in and heads back towards Virginia Beach.

724
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 3: The next morning, their car is found while they're heading

725
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 3: eastbound to go to Virginia Beach. It's found in the

726
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 3: westbound rest area on I sixty four. The windows slightly

727
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 3: rolled down and someone has taken a roach clip out

728
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 3: of his car which had a feather on it, and

729
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 3: has pinned it to the window. Keys are left in

730
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,800
Speaker 3: the ignition the killer has actually put a little sign

731
00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 3: essentially to attract attention to the vehicle. Their bodies aren't

732
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 3: found either. Initially, it takes six weeks. They do a

733
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 3: search of the area and they didn't do a good job.

734
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 3: These hunters find the bodies six weeks later in the woods.

735
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 3: They've been covered with a blanket. Obviously animals have gotten

736
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 3: to them. There is evidence of stabbing. One of the

737
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 3: fingers on Amerate Phelps actually has a cut in it

738
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 3: and hadn't healed, so it was a recent stab wound,

739
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:28,840
Speaker 3: like a defensive stab wound. But their bodies are found

740
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 3: on this logging trail. We've been back there. It hasn't

741
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 3: changed much. I've seen the actual currency. It's it's creepy.

742
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,479
Speaker 3: It's a narrow tunnel through the woods. It's a logging trail.

743
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 3: So it's if you don't know that trail, you wouldn't

744
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 3: ever take your car back there, because you know, if

745
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 3: you could get stuck or get to a place where

746
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:47,919
Speaker 3: you can't turn around, you know, and have to back

747
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:51,800
Speaker 3: up a mile. So whoever it was knew this area

748
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 3: had scouted it out to do this. They were seen

749
00:36:55,760 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 3: by an eye witness on the eastbound rest area, so

750
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:04,919
Speaker 3: they were physically there. Whoever this person was intercepted them,

751
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 3: took them, most likely in his vehicle, up to the

752
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 3: first exit, gets off, goes on this mysterious logging trail,

753
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 3: drives them back on the logging trail, kills them in

754
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,720
Speaker 3: a struggle. Bodies are left there. Whoever it was came

755
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,280
Speaker 3: back had to have gotten to the far west area

756
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 3: across the highway on foot, got to their vehicle, drove

757
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 3: their vehicle up and over, and then parked it and

758
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 3: staged it on the outbound. Then he gets in his

759
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 3: vehicle on leaves.

760
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 1: But again, is this staging so the car can be

761
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 1: stolen and it can be pinned on someone else, or

762
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:39,720
Speaker 1: is this staging like I'm back, I'm here.

763
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 3: Well, it's interesting. The profiler that we talked to said,

764
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 3: we felt the roach clip was a message to police,

765
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 3: taunting them. He put it in the exit lane, so

766
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 3: it's not parked like in a normal place. It's literally

767
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 3: parked on the exit lane to get back on the highway,

768
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 3: just off of that and the windows down, the clips attached.

769
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,760
Speaker 3: It's done almost deliberately attract attention.

770
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: Or couples did in a three year period? Do they

771
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 1: have any leads at this point?

772
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:13,319
Speaker 3: Nowadays you'd be able to track so easily whose cell

773
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 3: phone was hitting which tower at that time of night.

774
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 3: You would have been able to pin some of this

775
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 3: down and get a list that you could have compared

776
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 3: from site to site. Now this would have been solved.

777
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 3: The DNA would have been employed quickly. We would have

778
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 3: profiles of this person identified. With all the cameras and

779
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,320
Speaker 3: stuff that are out there. Even though the Colonial Parkway

780
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,720
Speaker 3: is isolated, there's cameras I am positive at this point

781
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 3: that show who's coming on and off the parkway. This

782
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 3: is the nineteen eighties. All of that stuff didn't exist.

783
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 1: So did they keep any of the blood evidence or

784
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:49,719
Speaker 1: anything that call the evidence on?

785
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 3: Now the evidence is totally preserved.

786
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 1: So let's talk about his progression. Kathy and Rebecca are

787
00:38:55,680 --> 00:39:00,160
Speaker 1: not hidden, right, correct? And then David and Robin and

788
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 1: even a more isolated place right are hidden. Yeah, he

789
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,320
Speaker 1: had tried to hide Kathy Rebecca who were up first.

790
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 1: Then third is Cassandra and Keith who are totally missing.

791
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:13,359
Speaker 2: We have no idea where they are.

792
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:17,240
Speaker 1: And then Daniel and Anna Maria could have been missing,

793
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 1: but it just happened to be they were hidden, they

794
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,840
Speaker 1: were well right, Yeah, okay, so it does sound like

795
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 1: Kathy and Rebecca truly were the first.

796
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 2: Does that sound right?

797
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:31,800
Speaker 3: I believe that my daughter who's my co author, believes

798
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 3: these are connected gases. This is a killer who got

799
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 3: better and more refined, and he improved his tools that

800
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:39,760
Speaker 3: he had.

801
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 2: Does this stop?

802
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 1: Yes, in just cold, after a three to four year period,

803
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:46,760
Speaker 1: it just stops.

804
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 2: What do you think made it stop?

805
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 3: You know, the classics are all the same. One of

806
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,760
Speaker 3: the killers, if it's a pair, ends up in jail,

807
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 3: because if it's a pair, they the individually won't do

808
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 3: the killings. One of them's dead or the killer himself

809
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:05,319
Speaker 3: is dead. For all we know, he had a close

810
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 3: encounter and what with law enforcement, and law enforcement didn't

811
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 3: realize they were dealing with the killer but it scared him.

812
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 2: But this seems like a compulsion he can't control.

813
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 3: Well. But you know, if you look at some of

814
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 3: the serial killers, it's fascinating to me. Btk Quit, Green

815
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,280
Speaker 3: River quit. They have a lifestyle change.

816
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 1: Golden State killer aged out right, he said, I can't

817
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 1: jump through windows anymore.

818
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,360
Speaker 3: Right, there's a point where certain times lifestyle changes again,

819
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 3: a new wife, a new job, leads that killer to

820
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 3: do it. The old school thinking is one of them's

821
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 3: in jail, or he's in jail, or he's dead. I

822
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 3: don't subscribe to that. We don't have a string of

823
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 3: these types of crimes taking place anywhere else, of couples

824
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 3: in this fashion.

825
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 1: What was this experience like working with your daughter on

826
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 1: this book. This is very violent, it's violence against women,

827
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:02,280
Speaker 1: It's an investigation of an unsolved case. You're working together

828
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 1: very closely. Was this sort of a unique experience for you.

829
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 3: Victoria is great because she offers a completely different perspective

830
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 3: because she's younger. And as much as I like to

831
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 3: think I remember how what it was like to be young,

832
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 3: it's very different when you start talking to somebody who

833
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,319
Speaker 3: is in that age frame, and she was very much

834
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 3: in the age frame of some of the victims. So

835
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 3: from her perspective, I think it actually helped us produce

836
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 3: a better book because she could go, well the head,

837
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:31,800
Speaker 3: let's not jump the gun on this or that. And

838
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 3: it's always good to have a different set of eyes

839
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 3: when you're at these murder scenes. And these murder scenes

840
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 3: are all very much as they were during the period

841
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 3: you can go to them.

842
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 1: What an odd and wonderful bonding experience.

843
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 2: I can only hope one of my own daughters is

844
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 2: interested in writing a book with me.

845
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 3: It's worth doing. It's worth doing.

846
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 2: In the animals of true crime, what are the lessons?

847
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 3: There is evidence. I hope that the FBI and Virginia

848
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 3: State Police suss that evidence. After the Golden State Killer's apprehension,

849
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 3: I have the exact same hope for this case. I

850
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 3: think it's going to be DNA that ties it this

851
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 3: person to at least one of the crimes, and if

852
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 3: they can time to one crime, then they can evaluate

853
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 3: did he have the potential of doing the others.

854
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words, he called Peter

855
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 1: cab and told the cab to take him to the

856
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 1: Waldorf Astoria, And so the cab took him there.

857
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 3: He got out of the cab, and just as he

858
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 3: was about to check in to the Waldorf, he changed

859
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:42,400
Speaker 3: his mind, and somewhere between there and the townhouse he

860
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:43,280
Speaker 3: met a murderer.

861
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime, please check out my

862
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 1: books American Sherlock and Death in the Air. This has

863
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,840
Speaker 1: been an exactly right tenfold more Media Production. Alexis and

864
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,800
Speaker 1: Morosi is our producer, Andrew Eapan is our sound designer.

865
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,839
Speaker 1: Ellen Middleton is a researcher for us. Curtis Heath does

866
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 1: the composition, Nick Toga did the artwork, and ILSA.

867
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 2: Brink designed the website.

868
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 1: The executive producers are Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Daniel Kramer.

869
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:22,879
Speaker 1: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more

870
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,719
Speaker 1: Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more. If you are

871
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 1: an advertiser interested in advertising on our show, go to

872
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873
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 1: a historical true crime story that could use some attention

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Speaker 1: from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email us at

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Speaker 1: info at Tenfoldmorewicked dot com.

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Speaker 2: Listen, subscribe and

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Speaker 1: Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher or wherever

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Speaker 1: you get your podcasts,