WEBVTT - Big Questions Are Hanging Over the Auto Industry 0:00:02.120 --> 0:00:06.880 The automobile industry is critically important to economies around the world, 0:00:07.080 --> 0:00:10.680 and it's being buffeted from all sides. In the US, 0:00:10.840 --> 0:00:16.120 consumer tastes have dramatically shifted, forcing manufacturers to retool their 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:19.919 product lines. Tesla is shaking up how the world looks 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:24.360 at electric cars. President Donald Trump is threatening tariffs on 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:28.600 imported autos in a bid to protect American jobs and 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:34.199 hanging all over. This is the steady march toward autonomous vehicles, 0:00:34.560 --> 0:00:38.000 a change that will have profound implications not just for 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:51.120 the industry but for society as a whole. Welcome to Benchmark. 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:55.320 I'm Scott Landman, economics editor with Bloomberg News in Washington. 0:00:55.880 --> 0:00:59.320 We're recording this just as the latest stats on auto 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:03.120 sales cross US the wire, showing that consumers are increasingly 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:08.399 abandoning Sedan's and sales overall we're underwhelming this past month. 0:01:08.720 --> 0:01:10.640 On top of that, we have an endless flow of 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:15.480 news about Tesla, electric cars, driverless vehicles, and changing fuel 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:19.959 economy standards. Fortunately, we have someone with us who can 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:23.920 help make sense of all this. Ellen Hughes Cromwick is 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:29.199 a senior economist at the University of Michigan. Energy Institute. Previously, 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:32.480 she was chief economist at the U. S. Commerce Department, 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:35.760 and she was also chief economist at Ford Motor Company 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:41.840 for eighteen years. Ellen, thanks for joining us on Benchmark. Great, thanks, 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:46.000 God appreciate it. Ellen. I thought we'd call this four 0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:51.160 big questions facing the auto industry. We have consumer tastes changing, 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:56.120 we have tariffs, electric vehicles, autonomous vehicles. Obviously we could 0:01:56.160 --> 0:01:59.400 talk about a lot more, but let's start with those four. 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:03.480 Before we get to those topics, can you give us 0:02:03.760 --> 0:02:07.920 some sense of how important the auto industry is to 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:12.760 the U. S. Economy and to the global economy. Great, 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:17.280 thanks Scott, Yes, it is very important. Let me first 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:19.920 say that, you know, if you look at just the 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:25.880 new vehicle market globally this year, probably you know, close 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:32.640 to a hundred million units will be purchased by consumers 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:39.040 in all countries, all markets. That would represent about two 0:02:39.240 --> 0:02:44.880 trillion dollars of spending at an average vehicle price, you know, 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:50.800 around twenty so just taking the new vehicle market globally, wow, 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:54.800 it is a large market. If you look at all 0:02:55.000 --> 0:03:00.839 vehicles on the roads globally, awards indicate Hates that as 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:06.639 of last year there were about one point three billion cars, utilities, 0:03:06.639 --> 0:03:13.200 and trucks. That's both retail units bought by private buyers 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:17.200 in the retail market as well as commercial buyers, whether 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:22.280 they're fleets or you know, government purchases. Um. So that 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:27.440 one point three billion cars, utilities and trucks, along with 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:30.920 the new vehicle sales and then all the services that 0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:35.400 we buy, you can imagine that that two trillion of 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:39.920 new purchases, you know, goes up from there, possibly as 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:43.080 high as seven trillion. I know that the CEO of 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:48.040 Uber was recently interviewed by Bloomberg and I think he 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:52.480 put a total size of the market at seven ellen. 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:55.280 Those are pretty big numbers. So when we're talking about 0:03:55.280 --> 0:04:00.760 the US economy, about what percentage does the auto industry represent, again, 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:04.800 coming back to the new vehicle market, three to four 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:09.680 percent of g d P, right, so it's pretty significant 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:13.520 just and just talking about new vehicles. Let's move to 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:17.200 our first topic, which is new vehicle the new vehicle market. 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:19.920 It's the beginning of the month, which is when automakers 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:24.279 report their monthly sales and and something that's really caught 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:27.240 my eye in recent months is that, you know, not 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:30.400 only have sales been kind of flat overall, But we're 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:35.520 seeing this huge change in consumer tastes. You know, sales 0:04:35.560 --> 0:04:39.640 of traditional sitan's like a four door Sedan, Honda Court 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:42.520 that sort of thing. Those are really going down and 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:47.880 SUVs are just going way up. I know this has 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:50.159 been kind of going on for a while, but it 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:53.080 just seems to be getting more and more pronounced lately. 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:58.160 Why is this happening and what implications does this have 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:01.840 for the industry in the ECONO, this has been a 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:08.880 trend in place for now more than a couple of decades, 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:15.080 and the market in consumer case of just really gravitated 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:21.360 towards this very attractive package of a crossover or what 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:26.960 you call an suv, whereby there's just more space, there's 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:33.919 um a just a much better set of attributes in 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:36.520 in those types of vehicles. You know, a lot of 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:40.240 women like to be higher up when they drive. I mean, 0:05:40.279 --> 0:05:45.680 they just like to have a better viewpoint when they're driving, 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:51.120 and they are very much attracted to those types of vehicles. 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:53.960 So it's it's a trend, it's been in place. It 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:57.360 you know, we can see it in some other markets 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:03.280 as well. There is a a lot of buyers in China. 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:07.360 I will say, however, that I love the sedans, and 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:13.080 they like long vehicles, and they have different taste and 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:17.480 preferences than what we see in the US. And as 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:23.719 you know, in Europe, because fuel taxes are much higher 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:27.240 than they are here in the US, there is a 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:36.080 demand for a well contented UH car rather than a 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:40.880 crossover and an suv because the fuel cost is just 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:44.719 so much higher because of taxes. And what is the 0:06:44.800 --> 0:06:49.480 economic impact if any of you know, all these automakers 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:52.080 that are kind of being maybe caught a little flat 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:56.120 footed right now, are sales lower than they otherwise could be? 0:06:56.200 --> 0:06:59.880 Is or are these sales kind of a lost cause 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:03.320 that maybe, um, you know, some some companies were not 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:07.760 able to switch over fast enough to SUVs. I think 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:10.880 that most of the most of the major manufacturers have 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:17.600 UH lineups that really meet those consumer case and preferences. 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:22.760 What they're doing now is turning to electrified vehicles. And 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:29.640 by electrified vehicles, i'm referring to plug in hybrid electric 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:38.080 vehicles and battery electric vehicles. Plugins have an internal combustion, 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:42.840 you know, gasoline fueled engine along with an electric motor, 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:48.960 and those plugins do allow for recharging of the vehicle 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:54.320 a battery electric vehicle does not have a gas powered engine. 0:07:54.440 --> 0:08:00.680 It is only fueled by batteries that are recharged. Both 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:06.840 those UM plugins and electric battery electric vehicles are really 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:11.160 where the manufacturers are now turning. And that's going to 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:17.560 be very exciting because it will offer up the investing 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:22.080 that they're going to be doing now to open up 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:30.360 the gateway to more autonomous vehicle content and having an 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:36.760 electrified platform upon which to put the connected and automated 0:08:36.880 --> 0:08:43.000 vehicle content is really the avenue that they're pursuing for many, 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:47.240 many different reasons. Let's take one at a time. Let's uh, 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:50.319 we did want to talk about electric vehicles, electrified vehicles. 0:08:50.880 --> 0:08:54.000 What is the state of that market right now? I 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:57.199 know the sales have been increasing, and there's been predictions 0:08:57.200 --> 0:08:59.640 for years that there's that they're going to take off. 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:03.640 I think your listeners will be surprised to learn that 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:11.320 the growth of electric or electrified vehicles is very high, 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:15.840 in the double digits globally. UH. Right now, as of 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:20.040 two thousand eighteen, we estimate that there are about five 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:25.679 million units on the roads UH when this year comes 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:30.400 to a close, and that would include one point nine 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:34.480 million units of sales this year. Some of it is 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:41.400 because there are policy stimulus UM tools in in play, 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:46.760 particularly in China and in Europe, where some subsidies or 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:54.120 credits or registration exemptions are available to buyers. But even so, 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:59.040 I think, you know, what's fascinating about this is that 0:09:59.840 --> 0:10:08.160 the trend toward electric vehicles is tied to this future 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:14.320 of autonomous vehicles. And you know, what we're learning is that, 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:21.920 you know, automotive manufacturers recognize the simplicity of the engineering 0:10:22.040 --> 0:10:26.880 in an electric vehicle and why that serves as a 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:33.160 very efficient platform upon which to put this autonomous content. 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:36.440 So in other words, you know, they kind of have 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:41.280 to make a capital spending decision to really focus on 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:46.680 the electrified platform and not the internal combustion engine. Let's 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:49.440 just talk about the electric vehicle side of it. How 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:54.480 much capital spending will automakers be putting in towards, you know, 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:57.600 making that transition and figuring out how to build these 0:10:57.679 --> 0:11:01.080 vehicles in the next five to ten years. I don't 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:05.720 have an estimate for you on that directly. You know, 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:10.200 it would be great to UM have that number. I 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:13.080 think all of us are trying to trying to figure 0:11:13.120 --> 0:11:15.400 that out. But is it going to be a significant 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:20.360 amount of significant portion of what automakers are spending. Yes, 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:24.240 and I would add to it that you know, it's 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:27.960 going to be capital spending on electrified and then add 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:32.559 to that the spending that they're doing to put connected 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:36.800 and automated vehicle content into the video. It's really both 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:41.079 of them together, is just absolutely and I think they're 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:45.400 they're joined at the hip that that both of them, 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:49.880 you know, combined are really going to be their strategic focus. 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:52.319 And if you you look at some of the popular 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:57.240 press about how many electrified vehicles will be coming out 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:06.240 between now and the number of of you know, vehicles 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:12.719 really skyrockets, and uh, that's going to require retooling plants 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:17.440 and reconfiguring and making sure that you know, they've got 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:22.280 capital efficiency in these plants over time. So is there 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:24.640 going to be the kind of what we might call 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:28.840 creative destruction of a lot of kinds of parts makers 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:33.840 and the formation of new companies or recreation of companies 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:37.839 to perform these tasks and to make these new parts 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:42.160 and other technologies that are that will be needed. Oh, Scott, 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:45.760 you just hit you hit the point directly. Absolutely. I 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:48.679 think that we're going to see a lot of uh, 0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:53.559 the so called Chumpeter creative destruction, and it's already happening 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:57.240 in some respects. I mean, you think about what Tesla 0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:01.680 has accomplished. They have really in a trend setter in 0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:07.760 developing a giga factory, a battery pack that lays horizontally 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:13.080 on the platform of their electrified vehicles, and really reaching 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:19.720 out to develop charging infrastructure for their buyers. And now 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:24.600 that I think generated a lot of disruption and you know, 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:29.720 kind of aha moments among the traditional automakers to say, yeah, 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:32.880 this really is going to happen. And I wanted to 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:36.600 mention Scott that one of the reasons why this trend 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:40.760 seems to be much more apparent and perhaps happening at 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:45.440 a faster pace than than what some analysts may think, 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:49.400 is that the cost of the battery cells and the 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:53.840 battery packs for these vehicles is coming down at a 0:13:53.920 --> 0:14:00.200 faster pace. Already, we're seeing potential, you know, cost structures 0:14:00.280 --> 0:14:05.000 that um get us to a point where the retail 0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:10.280 price of a battery electric vehicle is coming very close 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:16.720 to a comparable internal combustion engine vehicle, and that that'll 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:20.080 really be an important tipping point because if you know, 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:24.920 consumers walk into the dealership and they see that there's 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:30.200 more price parity between these two types of vehicles. Um, 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:32.680 you know, it may just tip the scale to get 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:37.600 them to buy electrified vehicles. Well, that might not be 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:41.800 the only tipping point when it comes to vehicles. When 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:46.600 we look at autonomous vehicles, another tipping point may very 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:50.000 well be do you even need a car? Do you 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:53.080 even need your own car? Ellen, When you look out 0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:56.960 at the auto industry and these trends in electrified vehicles 0:14:57.000 --> 0:15:02.040 and autonomous vehicles in the next years, do you see 0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:08.600 sales increasing, decreasing, or or or slowing. The scenario that 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:12.880 that we're working on kind of goes like this, that 0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:18.920 we're in a period now where there is this manufacturing 0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:24.600 and kind of physical transition toward electrified vehicles that is 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:30.080 really being fostered by two developments. One is this reduction 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:34.080 in the battery cost, which is critical, and then the 0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:39.920 second one is the fact that we are seeing automakers 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:45.040 recognized that they need to have the electrified platform in 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:49.400 order to put the autonomous content and features onto it 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:53.480 for a lot of engineering and economic reasons. Those are 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:57.880 really married together. When we look at all of the 0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:05.480 testing and software or development for autonomous content in a vehicle. 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:08.720 We see that that's going to take a longer period 0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:13.720 of time. We need to have many more simulations, many 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:20.760 more miles of testing, and also a regulatory structure. We 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:27.760 really don't have substantive regulations yet for connected and automated vehicles. 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:31.440 That all is going to take a more extended, you know, 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:35.560 period of time to to really play out. So this 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:40.040 really this transition you know, I think will take place 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:45.040 over the next ten to fifteen years UM. Now, could 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:51.080 there be periods when it, you know, happens more rapidly, absolutely, 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:57.120 especially if the cost per mile traveled goes down because 0:16:57.120 --> 0:17:02.280 of shared car sharing and other mobile apps that really 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:07.199 bring to the for if that cost per mile traveled 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:14.680 falls as more autonomous content is putting these vehicles, then 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:19.240 you know, you really need fewer units to be honest. 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:23.879 All right, Well, let's go back from the future to 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:27.720 the present to something that's not a simulation, and that 0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:31.280 is the trade war that we're finding us in now 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:34.680 at the behest of President Donald Trump, something we frequently 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:39.560 talked about on this podcast. At this point, the President 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:45.639 has been threatening tariffs on imported automobiles. He hasn't quite 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:50.840 followed through on that global threat yet, although it does 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:56.480 seem to be still very much there. Ellen, if we 0:17:56.480 --> 0:18:01.640 were to see a true ratch it up of tariffs 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:06.840 on cars coming into the US, replete with reciprocal or 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:11.760 retaliatory tariffs from other countries, how much of a disaster 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:16.439 would that be for the global economy? When consumers go 0:18:16.520 --> 0:18:21.639 out and buy vehicles, you know, that's a big decision 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:26.159 for by for for people here in the US, but 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:30.520 really across the world, and in the short run, you know, 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:34.320 consumer demand for a large, durable good can be very 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:41.119 price sensitive. Now, the US Commerce Department started their investigation 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:48.120 last May to determine whether imported cars and components were 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:53.240 really a threat to national security and worthy of a 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:58.879 of an import tariff as much as twenty five You know, 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:04.720 it's not like Lee's at an auto manufacturer in Europe 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:10.200 would pass along all of that cost to the buyer. 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:15.600 But even if it was half of that tariff um, 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:20.840 I do think it would disrupt demand quite a bit 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:25.080 here in the US. Is that something that would cause 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:28.399 a recession or be a strong factor that would that 0:19:28.440 --> 0:19:31.600 would add to the risk of a recession? I don't 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:36.640 think it's um at that level of disruption. I think 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:43.760 it would be part of a broader sentiment shift associated 0:19:43.920 --> 0:19:50.639 with all the uncertainty that this tariff cabal has caused 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:55.280 for consumers and businesses. And you know, right now we're 0:19:55.280 --> 0:20:00.080 in the middle of this tariff you know, kind of 0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:04.399 novel and uh, we just don't know what the ending 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:10.240 is likely to be. And it's partly that uncertainty that 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:16.639 can tip the economy. I've got my favorite data buffet 0:20:16.960 --> 0:20:20.360 of you know, about twenty indicators that I look at, 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:25.400 and you know, the ones that are most concerning can 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:32.480 be you know, very fast shifts in consumer and business sentiment. 0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:39.680 We go from being overly optimistic to overly pessimistic. And 0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:44.040 once that starts, it can happen very rapidly in a 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:48.479 matter of a few months. And that's when businesses stop 0:20:49.080 --> 0:20:54.199 capex and consumers lock up their wallets. And so I 0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:58.639 think there is a risk of that type of disruption. 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:03.400 It's big more than just autos, however, it's more along 0:21:03.440 --> 0:21:06.120 the lines of, you know, we were not quite sure 0:21:06.160 --> 0:21:09.920 if we are going to have a North American um, 0:21:09.960 --> 0:21:13.160 you know, trade deal, whatever we want to call it. 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:19.080 Not sure if we're going to prosecute um you know 0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:24.320 section to thirty two of the trade law which would 0:21:24.480 --> 0:21:32.080 encumber our imports from Europe and and also more terroriffts 0:21:32.160 --> 0:21:38.680 from China. It's it's a very long list of elements 0:21:38.800 --> 0:21:43.640 that generate uncertainty and therefore you know, tax our decisions 0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:49.240 to buy, invest, and undertake any type of economic activity. 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:54.840 That's the to me, that's the big risk for a recession. 0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:58.280 And I know a lot of economists are talking about 0:21:59.680 --> 0:22:04.600 I know could my concerns it could happen, happened much 0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:10.080 faster than maybe, you know, the broad set of indicators 0:22:10.600 --> 0:22:15.920 tell us today. Well, Ellen, on that optimistic note, maybe 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:19.080 we should end there. Ellen Hughes Cromwick, thank you very 0:22:19.160 --> 0:22:21.720 much for taking the time to talk about the auto 0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:25.000 industry and the global economy. I really learned a lot today. 0:22:25.600 --> 0:22:36.560 Thank you, Scott. I appreciate it. Benchmark. You will be 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:39.000 back next week. Until then, you can find us on 0:22:39.000 --> 0:22:42.320 the Bloomberg terminal, Bloomberg dot com or Bloomberg app, as 0:22:42.320 --> 0:22:47.080 well as podcast destinations such as Apple Podcasts, Spotify or 0:22:47.119 --> 0:22:49.600 wherever you listen. We'd love it if you took the 0:22:49.640 --> 0:22:52.600 time to rate and review the show, so more listeners 0:22:52.600 --> 0:22:55.320 can find us and you can find us on Twitter, 0:22:55.680 --> 0:22:59.359 follow me at scott Landman and our guest is at 0:22:59.359 --> 0:23:03.919 Ellen Hughes c r o M. Benchmark is produced by 0:23:03.960 --> 0:23:08.000 Toford Foreheads. The head of Bloomberg Podcasts is Francesca Levy. 0:23:08.480 --> 0:23:10.320 Thanks for listening, See you next time.