Speaker 1: Push Kim.
Speaker 2: Hey there everyone, it's Michael Lewis here. Welcome back to
Speaker 2: Against the Rules.
Speaker 1: Just now.
Speaker 2: There are lots of political conversations happening in the United
Speaker 2: States that some of us might have thought were over.
Speaker 2: Politics feels upended, chaotic, certainly distracting.
Speaker 1: But here's my point.
Speaker 2: This conversation we've been having here on this show about
Speaker 2: the rise of sports betting in the United States. Many
Speaker 2: people once thought that conversation was completely over. This sports
Speaker 2: betting was de facto illegal forever, with only a few exceptions,
Speaker 2: and furthermore, that the issue would never come up again
Speaker 2: because politicians had decided it. As you may recall, way
Speaker 2: back in the early nineteen nineties, a new Jersey Senator
Speaker 2: named Bill Bradley introduced a bill to keep most states
Speaker 2: from legalizing sports betting. Bradley wasn't just any old senator.
Speaker 2: He'd been a beloved college and professional basketball star. When
Speaker 2: he spoke out about the corrosive effects of sports gambling,
Speaker 2: people listened.
Speaker 3: So I passed this little bill. Who it was not
Speaker 3: a big bill. It was a little bill that banned
Speaker 3: sports betting in the states that didn't have it, and
Speaker 3: it was the law of the Land, and I felt
Speaker 3: good about it.
Speaker 2: That law was called the Professional and Amateur Sports Protection
Speaker 2: Act PASPA, and it held for a couple of decades.
Speaker 2: Earlier this season, I told the story of what happened next. Basically,
Speaker 2: a single state began to challenge PASPA, New Jersey in
Speaker 2: twenty and eleven, and folks in the state of New
Speaker 2: Jersey voted yesterday to legalize sports betting. So eventually the
Speaker 2: issue went all the way to the Supreme Court, and
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court overturned PASPA. Starting in twenty eighteen, states
Speaker 2: were allowed to legalize sports betting, and as of now,
Speaker 2: thirty nine states.
Speaker 1: Have done so.
Speaker 2: For most of the season, I've been reporting on the consequences.
Speaker 2: We've heard about gambling addicts who ruin their lives, college
Speaker 2: and pro athletes who are threatened by angry fans, state
Speaker 2: regulators trying to do anything at all to stop companies
Speaker 2: from luring in under age betters. So the last place
Speaker 2: to go this season is a question who now is
Speaker 2: in a position to do anything about any of this?
Speaker 2: Are there any lawmakers stepping in to be Bill Bradley
Speaker 2: this time around? Democratic Connecticut Senator Richard Blumenthal has stepped
Speaker 2: into this role. He's been on a mission to regulate
Speaker 2: sports betting since it was legalized, and with a US
Speaker 2: Congressman from New York, he's introduced a bill that would
Speaker 2: place restrictions on sports gambling company's ability to advertise and
Speaker 2: offer inducement bets, among other things. The lawmakers say sports
Speaker 2: gambling is turning into a public health crisis.
Speaker 1: I called up Senator.
Speaker 2: Blumenthal and I asked him, how did this issue get
Speaker 2: on his radar In the first place.
Speaker 4: I was working on addiction in various spheres of life.
Speaker 4: I sued the big tobacco companies because they were attracting
Speaker 4: and addicting kids to nikochine. I have been active on
Speaker 4: alcohol issues, drunk driving, and I got to know some
Speaker 4: people who had real life stories about how sports betting
Speaker 4: literally ruined their lives, broke apart, their families, ended their careers,
Speaker 4: and I became more and more interested in how sports
Speaker 4: betting operates. I was approached by people who heard that
Speaker 4: colleges had entered into contracts with the casinos they're promote gambling.
Speaker 4: Absolutely mind boggling that colleges would promote gambling among kids
Speaker 4: who were not permitted legally to gamble. So it is
Speaker 4: a pervasive and huge industry in America, and nobody's focused
Speaker 4: on the serious damaging consequences.
Speaker 2: It's kind of shocking to me that more people aren't
Speaker 2: upset right now.
Speaker 4: First of all, it appears so benign. I mean, what
Speaker 4: could go wrong sports betting? Sports is good betting, Hey,
Speaker 4: everybody bets. Second, a lot of it is invisible. You know,
Speaker 4: it's no longer placing a bet to a physical person
Speaker 4: the bookie who then in the old days was a
Speaker 4: part of the mob in essence and could use the
Speaker 4: mob to extort. There were physical consequences and crime involved
Speaker 4: in sports betting. Third, I think that there is a
Speaker 4: kind of denial that takes place, as it does with
Speaker 4: any addiction. You know, people are in denial often about
Speaker 4: alcoholism or drug addictions, and gambling addiction is no different.
Speaker 4: People don't want to acknowledge they're going through a divorce
Speaker 4: or separation because the financial problems and the frustrations of
Speaker 4: the spouse or significant other rose to a level that
Speaker 4: would no longer sustain the relationship.
Speaker 1: I learned about sports betting.
Speaker 2: My tool is the pen. I can write about it,
Speaker 2: I can talk about it. You're a senator, you can
Speaker 2: do something about it. How does the issue rise to
Speaker 2: the level of concern with you and then that you
Speaker 2: might actually take some action, introduce some legislation.
Speaker 4: How does a legislator get the idea for a new law.
Speaker 4: It's often just by listening or reading. So I was
Speaker 4: listening to people who told me about this problem. I
Speaker 4: am not a sports better nothing wrong with sports betting,
Speaker 4: per se. Keep in mind, I'm not trying to ban
Speaker 4: in sports betting. Yeah, just make sure there are safeguards
Speaker 4: to stop problem.
Speaker 1: Gambling before you even write the law.
Speaker 2: Do you just kind of even sound out your colleagues
Speaker 2: to see if there's any hope for such a law passing.
Speaker 4: I do talk to colleagues to determine whether they're interested,
Speaker 4: whether other like minded colleagues would want to join me.
Speaker 4: And I also talk to experts in the field, because
Speaker 4: I don't trust my own judgment alone. I want to
Speaker 4: talk to the problem gambling experts, and I talk to
Speaker 4: leaders in the Senate, for example, what are the chances
Speaker 4: of this thing getting passed? What do you think about it?
Speaker 4: Let me have a hearing. That's the second part of
Speaker 4: what we do. Try to build the public case for legislation,
Speaker 4: and then that you know, after the legislation is written
Speaker 4: and I introduce it and we have hearings, then at
Speaker 4: some point the committee will hopefully vote it out of
Speaker 4: committee to the floor of the United States Senate where
Speaker 4: it would pass. Obviously it has to go through the
Speaker 4: House of Representative as well. That's the legislative process. In
Speaker 4: thumbnail sketch.
Speaker 2: And you're after talking to experts and talking to the
Speaker 2: people in your districts, and what did you decide needed
Speaker 2: to be done at the federal level, what did the
Speaker 2: law need to do.
Speaker 4: I was a federal prosecutor back in the day. I
Speaker 4: was the US attorney and connected. We did some criminal
Speaker 4: cases against the mob extortion people, and I learned something
Speaker 4: about bookies and sports betting and so forth in the
Speaker 4: old days. What impressed me about this industry was how
Speaker 4: advanced it is technological, how they can target you because
Speaker 4: they know you really like to bet on whether the
Speaker 4: quarterback is going to be tackled eighteen times in the
Speaker 4: first quarter, or whether you want to bet on whether
Speaker 4: so and so, you know running back will catch a
Speaker 4: touchdown in the third quarter. There are all these are
Speaker 4: kain different ways to bet these days prop betting as
Speaker 4: it's called, and the reason it's possible is because the
Speaker 4: technology is so advanced that you can make that beack.
Speaker 4: But also it enables them to pitch you with promotions
Speaker 4: and bonuses, and if you haven't bet before, they can
Speaker 4: offer you a free bet no lose bet. Yeah, And
Speaker 4: then if you win, of course you're going to bet again,
Speaker 4: and they'll pitch you again and again. And here's the
Speaker 4: other dirty little secret here. If you're losing, they will
Speaker 4: continue to target you. That's the way they make money.
Speaker 4: If you're winning, they throttle you. That's the term. They
Speaker 4: don't want you to bet because when you win, it
Speaker 4: means less money for them, the sports betting company. So
Speaker 4: that's what attracted me in the sense of wanting to
Speaker 4: do something about it, because it seems so unfair that
Speaker 4: the house, so to speak, had this technological advantage through
Speaker 4: algorithms and artificial intelligence that could put you at a
Speaker 4: disadvantage not just in a single bet, but also make
Speaker 4: you more vulnerable to problem gambling.
Speaker 2: When we return, I find out exactly how Senator Bluementhal
Speaker 2: wants to regulate sports camp like on the federal level
Speaker 2: and encourage states to regulate it as well. We're back
Speaker 2: with Connecticut Senator Richard Blumenthal. I will say that his bill,
Speaker 2: introduced in the fall of two thousan twenty four with
Speaker 2: the New York Democratic Congressman Paul Tonko, has a much
Speaker 2: better acronym than PASPA. It's called Supporting Affordability and Fairness
Speaker 2: with Every Bet, or the Safe Bet Act.
Speaker 4: There are two approaches to the legislation. One is to
Speaker 4: try to set standards for those promotions and pitches and
Speaker 4: the hours when they can do advertising. And the other
Speaker 4: bill is to take money from the excise tax. You know,
Speaker 4: there's a point zero two five excise tax on all gambling,
Speaker 4: and to use part of it for treatment of problem gambling.
Speaker 4: So I kind of took a while to come up
Speaker 4: with the two approaches.
Speaker 2: The first approach is the one that interests me most
Speaker 2: because the gambling industry is perfectly happy to have all
Speaker 2: the attention focused on the problem gambler like it's their fault.
Speaker 2: It has nothing to do with the way the environment
Speaker 2: is designed to create in mind addiction, and in fact,
Speaker 2: the playbook of the gambler industry from before sports gambling
Speaker 2: has been to sort of like, oh, people need to
Speaker 2: learn how to control themselves. And there's some people who
Speaker 2: have an illness and we'll just treat them. So this
Speaker 2: first part attempts to kind of constrict the industry.
Speaker 1: What do you think needs to be done?
Speaker 4: The framework of this bill is fairly straightforward. First of all,
Speaker 4: betting anywhere in any state requires that there be state standards.
Speaker 4: We want the states to be actively involved, but the
Speaker 4: standards have to comply with certain minimums set in federal legislation,
Speaker 4: and those minimums prohibit, for example, sports betting broadcast advertising
Speaker 4: between eight am and ten PM. Prohibits sports betting advertising
Speaker 4: during the sporting event, advertisements designed to induce gambling with
Speaker 4: bonus no sweat bonus bets. We prohibit sports betting advertising
Speaker 4: designed to induce use of gambling products by showing audiences
Speaker 4: how to gamble or explaining how wagers work. But those
Speaker 4: are all advertising constraints.
Speaker 1: What's number two on your list?
Speaker 4: Second aspect relates to affordability, and that is for the
Speaker 4: promoters or the sports betting businesses to avoid exploiting people
Speaker 4: when they know they can't afford what they're doing. Basically
Speaker 4: prohibits operators from accepting more than five deposits from a
Speaker 4: single customer in a twenty four hour period, prohibits operators
Speaker 4: from accepting deposits via credit card. It requires affordability checks
Speaker 4: if there is a certain amount of gambling, and it
Speaker 4: requires a national clearinghouse for people to be able to
Speaker 4: exclude themselves. This point is really important. It is, you know,
Speaker 4: the self exclusion part. A lot of people know they're
Speaker 4: betting too much, you know, they know they're getting in
Speaker 4: over their heads, and they want to be able to stop.
Speaker 4: But the nature of addiction, obviously is they can't stop
Speaker 4: as long as you know the betting is out there
Speaker 4: right in front of them. So if you know, you
Speaker 4: know you're looking at your wife, you're looking at your kids,
Speaker 4: you're getting into death, that's going to force you to
Speaker 4: give up your house, and you say yourself, I got
Speaker 4: to stop. I need help. I want someone to tell
Speaker 4: me you can't gamble. So there is a possibility for
Speaker 4: self exclusion to stop not just the advertising, but also
Speaker 4: potentially the access.
Speaker 2: So if I put my name on this list, I
Speaker 2: can't just take my name off that the list when
Speaker 2: I want to when I want to gamble, I put
Speaker 2: it on the list, and it's I'm stuck.
Speaker 4: That's roughly the way it works. I mean, at a
Speaker 4: at a certain point you could probably take your name
Speaker 4: off the list. It's not you're not bound forever, but
Speaker 4: at least then you turn on you know, your computer
Speaker 4: or you know your cell phone. This is how you
Speaker 4: bet your smartphone now is your casino. You're in a casino, yep.
Speaker 4: And we want you to be able to say to
Speaker 4: that smartphone, look, I just picked it up. I want
Speaker 4: to gamble, and it says no. And then I realize
Speaker 4: this is how I get into trouble. And you put
Speaker 4: the smartphone back down and you go on to do
Speaker 4: something else and it catches you before you used to
Speaker 4: come Now, I'm far from naive. This is not a
Speaker 4: full proof that method of breaking an addiction, right. You know,
Speaker 4: there are all kinds of different ways to break gambling addiction,
Speaker 4: just as there are nicotine you know, some people use
Speaker 4: a patch, some people can do it without anything. It's
Speaker 4: hard to break nicotine addiction, just like any drug addiction.
Speaker 4: But it's also hard to break gambling addiction.
Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting you're in this piece of the
Speaker 2: legislation where you're dealing with the kind of like forcing
Speaker 2: some of the responsibility for the behavior of the gamblers
Speaker 2: onto the companies that are benefiting from their behavior. One
Speaker 2: of the things that's just been shocking to me is
Speaker 2: state by state, the gambling industry has has persuaded regulators
Speaker 2: that that they of course need to be able to
Speaker 2: monitor the activity of their customers, the gamblers. And the
Speaker 2: reason is that they say is that we want to
Speaker 2: you know, we want to be able to identify gamblers
Speaker 2: who are doing things they shouldn't be doing it's bad
Speaker 2: for them. In fact, the only thing they do is
Speaker 2: monitor for the people who are winning and know what
Speaker 2: they're doing so they can chuck them off the platforms.
Speaker 2: And the state regulators we've talked to know of no
Speaker 2: case like where the company said you've got to stop
Speaker 2: because you have a problem, and a lot of cases
Speaker 2: where people come and say, I have a problem. You know,
Speaker 2: you got to kind of limit me, and and the
Speaker 2: companies continues to pitch to them. We know that the
Speaker 2: companies know they have such great data on their on
Speaker 2: the gamblers. We know that they can identify problem gamblers
Speaker 2: better than problem gamblers probably could ever be identified in history. Uh,
Speaker 2: how do you how do you how do you regulate this, like,
Speaker 2: how do you actually force the issue so that they
Speaker 2: get in real trouble. Do you put regulators inside the
Speaker 2: gambling companies? Do you you just you trust them to report?
Speaker 4: That question goes to the next provision of the legislation,
Speaker 4: which relates to artificial intelligence. This legislation would prohibit the
Speaker 4: use of AI artificial intelligence to track and individual gamblers
Speaker 4: habits yep. And it would also prohibit the use of
Speaker 4: AI to create individualized offers and promotions the customers. I
Speaker 4: was describing earlier hypothetical and how the gambling industry can
Speaker 4: target people who are winning and if they are losing,
Speaker 4: and what kinds of bets they like to place, what
Speaker 4: sports and so forth, and the sports betting companies can't
Speaker 4: do it without artificial intelligence. So the prohibition against that
Speaker 4: kind of tracking and individualized promoting is very important. So, no,
Speaker 4: we don't put regulators inside the companies. And you know,
Speaker 4: in an ideal world, we might be a little bit
Speaker 4: more heavy handed in terms of the intervention in the companies.
Speaker 4: I've tried to think through this concept of a duty
Speaker 4: of care. You know, if you're a bartender in a
Speaker 4: bar and you serve somebody who is drunk a drink
Speaker 4: and that person hits and kills another person behind the wheel.
Speaker 4: You have in most states, I think it maybe all
Speaker 4: states now a liability. The tobacco companies have been held liable.
Speaker 4: I know because I sued them and we got quite
Speaker 4: a bit of money. But we also changed their practices
Speaker 4: and now they are often held liable if they deceive people.
Speaker 4: We can't stop them from selling cigarette, but they can
Speaker 4: be held responsible for breaches of their duty. And the
Speaker 4: importance here of taking or eliminating some of the means
Speaker 4: that are used that promote addiction. The goal here is
Speaker 4: to increase the standards that states apply when they regulate gambling.
Speaker 4: They are the regulators. Ultimately, we're not going to regulate
Speaker 4: it with a federal gambling regulatory authority. We're not creating
Speaker 4: a new bureaucracy. We want to make sure that these
Speaker 4: standards are enforceable.
Speaker 2: Who make sure at the federal level that the states
Speaker 2: are meeting the minimum standards.
Speaker 1: There's got to be some federal oversight.
Speaker 4: In effect, the federal government would ban gambling if they
Speaker 4: fail to meet the standards, and the enforcement authority for
Speaker 4: taking action by the federal government would be the Department
Speaker 4: of Justice. The Department of Justice has ultimate authority to
Speaker 4: say those standards in Connecticut or New York meet the
Speaker 4: federal minimums. They're doing everything they need to do. We
Speaker 4: also prohibit the use of AI to create gambling products
Speaker 4: like micro bets on amateur sports.
Speaker 2: Oh, you ban bets on amateur sports.
Speaker 4: We prohibit bets on amateur sports, with some exceptions for Olympics, Paralympics,
Speaker 4: and some college sports. We also prohibit all proposition bets
Speaker 4: featuring college or Olympic athletes.
Speaker 2: So this is very clearly a dark side of this
Speaker 2: is the pressure on young people who are playing sports
Speaker 2: to modify the betters who are betting on their behavior,
Speaker 2: and the threats they're getting are it's just it's crazy.
Speaker 2: They feel like they're essentially they feel like they're all
Speaker 2: working for the mob, and the mob is going to
Speaker 2: come decap them if they don't do the thing they're
Speaker 2: supposed to do on the field, or don't do it.
Speaker 2: On that thought, I'm going to interrupt myself so we
Speaker 2: can take a quick break. When't we return, Senator Blumenthal
Speaker 2: talks about why it's important to get sports gambling on
Speaker 2: the nation's radar as a public health issue? Can I
Speaker 2: do a little lobbying of my own? I'm back with
Speaker 2: Senator Richard Blumenthal. I asked him what else he wants
Speaker 2: to see happen besides the passage of his own Safe
Speaker 2: Bet Act.
Speaker 4: This may sound inconsequential, but it could be important. A
Speaker 4: Surgeon General report on the public health impacts of sports betting,
Speaker 4: which goes to the very first question that you asked me.
Speaker 4: Why aren't there others who care about this issue? There's
Speaker 4: a very powerful, well resourced in industry that wants to
Speaker 4: squelch awareness. And the challenge here is to elevate to
Speaker 4: raise awareness, partly to get this legislation done, but also
Speaker 4: because erasing the self denial, getting families to focus on
Speaker 4: the problem. Gambler, Well, maybe people will begin asking that
Speaker 4: question like they do now with alcoholism, you know, bring
Speaker 4: it out in the open.
Speaker 2: What I'm curious, does the sports gambling industry and the
Speaker 2: sports gambling problem remind you of anything specifically?
Speaker 1: What's the precedent?
Speaker 4: It reminds me a lot about tobacco. You know, there
Speaker 4: was a time when advertisements for smoking actually had doctors
Speaker 4: in their white coats recommending Chesterfield I remember very vividly
Speaker 4: because my mom smoked. Eventually, unfortunately she died from diseases
Speaker 4: related to tobacco. But I can remember the ads that said,
Speaker 4: in effect, doctors recommend Chesterfield cigarettes like this is healthy
Speaker 4: for you, helps you lose weight well in a certain way.
Speaker 4: I'm reminded of it because it's a seemingly harmless activity
Speaker 4: with an invisible effect that can be highly disruptive. Sports
Speaker 4: bending industry is tremendously powerful, Needless to say, I've heard
Speaker 4: from them and they want me to go away. They
Speaker 4: have huge resources to lobby and to do advertising, and
Speaker 4: they are engaged in both to a great scale. But
Speaker 4: the tobacco industry was also very, very powerful, and they
Speaker 4: spend a lot of money to try to keep us
Speaker 4: silent and stop our litigation and in effect, to see people.
Speaker 1: You think the future is for the bill.
Speaker 4: I think at some point the bill will pass. I
Speaker 4: can't tell you when. I also think that states will
Speaker 4: raise their standards on their own, because the public awareness
Speaker 4: we're generating will affect state legislatures. I was a state
Speaker 4: attorney general of Connecticut, and before that job, I was
Speaker 4: in the state legislature. It is so much easier to
Speaker 4: get things done in state legislatures than it is in
Speaker 4: the United States capital because the stakes are so much
Speaker 4: higher here. I want to put in a plug for
Speaker 4: my other act. I do think that channeling money into
Speaker 4: problem gambling addiction treatment is very, very important. You know,
Speaker 4: we have programs to treat all the other addictions, literally,
Speaker 4: all the other addictions, none for gambling addiction. And so
Speaker 4: taking a part of the revenue that comes to the
Speaker 4: government as a result of gambling or sports betting, I
Speaker 4: think appropriately could be used for state programs as well
Speaker 4: as federal programs to treat gambling addiction. And I think
Speaker 4: that bill is the more likely to pass more quickly
Speaker 4: because it may arouse less opposition from the industry for
Speaker 4: the very reason that you have said. A lot of
Speaker 4: the companies are more than happy to say, oh, we
Speaker 4: have no problem gambling, and whenever we encounter it, of
Speaker 4: course we offer programs to deal with.
Speaker 1: Right, I'm gonna let you go, but I do I
Speaker 1: do want to pitch you what I think needs to
Speaker 1: be done.
Speaker 2: So at the top of my list and my wish
Speaker 2: list for any bill would be a ban on advertising
Speaker 2: explicit a statement of the odds of the bets so
Speaker 2: so that you see so there's some transparency there and
Speaker 2: the how the how this gets done is again tricky.
Speaker 2: But the using of the technology, they have to understand
Speaker 2: the gambler for the purposes that they say they're using
Speaker 2: it for, which is to identify the problem gambler and
Speaker 2: prevent them from getting into trouble. Unlike the cigarette companies
Speaker 2: who don't know their customers. You know, they knew generally
Speaker 2: that people were getting addicted, but in this case, you
Speaker 2: know that Joe Bob has got a problem, and and
Speaker 2: you could just stop Joe Bob from gambling, and it's
Speaker 2: it's it's it is in theory really.
Speaker 1: Fixable in some ways.
Speaker 2: And to foist that responsibility upon them because they have
Speaker 2: the knowledge and so those would be like the big
Speaker 2: my Big three. There's a whole gray market which isn't
Speaker 2: fan duel and draftings because they don't want to get
Speaker 2: in this kind of trouble, but the marketing of an
Speaker 2: exploitation of minors. There isn't a high school in the country,
Speaker 2: I bet where there aren't kids gambling on sports. And
Speaker 2: in college it's like sixty percent of the men on
Speaker 2: college campuses.
Speaker 1: Are gambling on sports.
Speaker 2: Most those people are underage, So hammering people for taking
Speaker 2: underage bets because that's a period, especially with young men,
Speaker 2: those brains are very vulnerable and if you can if
Speaker 2: you can protect people in that window, they have a
Speaker 2: much better chance of never getting into trouble in the
Speaker 2: first place.
Speaker 4: Those are great ideas. I love all of them. On
Speaker 4: the underage gambling issue, enforcement has always been a problem,
Speaker 4: you know, whether it's tobacco, liquor anything involving social media.
Speaker 4: Age verification is really problematic because kids are ahead of
Speaker 4: our technology.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I understand you, and I yes, I understand. I understand,
Speaker 1: but at least banging that drum a little bit.
Speaker 2: I really appreciate you giving us all this time. You
Speaker 2: got important things to do, and so thank you, and
Speaker 2: good luck with dealing with this tornado.
Speaker 4: Thank you, take care, Bye bye bye bye.
Speaker 2: Richard Blumenthal is a Democratic US Senator from Connecticut who
Speaker 2: introduced the Safe Bet Act with New York Congressman Paul
Speaker 2: Tonko in twenty twenty four. With everything else that's going
Speaker 2: on in Washington right now, he's realistic about the bill's chances.
Speaker 2: But nothing ventured, nothing gained. I like to think that's
Speaker 2: a spirit of Against the Rules too, along.
Speaker 4: With anybody can win, but everybody's going to lose anyway.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for coming along this season.
Speaker 2: I've got to take a break here so i can
Speaker 2: start reporting from my next book. You'll be hearing about
Speaker 2: it soon enough, and I'll be popping back into this
Speaker 2: feed with other announcements and projects before you know it.
Speaker 2: So don't go away, and don't gamble your life away.
Speaker 2: It's a hard way to make an easy living. Against
Speaker 2: the Rules is written and hosted by me Michael Lewis
Speaker 2: and produced by Lydia gene Kott, Catherine Gerardeau, and Ariella Markowitz.
Speaker 2: Our editor is Julia Barton. Our engineer is Sarah Bruguier.
Speaker 2: Against the Rules is a production of Pushkin Industries. To
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