1 00:00:15,316 --> 00:00:21,916 Speaker 1: Push Kim. 2 00:00:21,996 --> 00:00:25,076 Speaker 2: Hey there everyone, it's Michael Lewis here. Welcome back to 3 00:00:25,156 --> 00:00:26,076 Speaker 2: Against the Rules. 4 00:00:26,996 --> 00:00:27,316 Speaker 1: Just now. 5 00:00:27,356 --> 00:00:29,876 Speaker 2: There are lots of political conversations happening in the United 6 00:00:29,916 --> 00:00:32,116 Speaker 2: States that some of us might have thought were over. 7 00:00:32,796 --> 00:00:36,276 Speaker 2: Politics feels upended, chaotic, certainly distracting. 8 00:00:36,956 --> 00:00:38,516 Speaker 1: But here's my point. 9 00:00:38,716 --> 00:00:41,436 Speaker 2: This conversation we've been having here on this show about 10 00:00:41,436 --> 00:00:44,516 Speaker 2: the rise of sports betting in the United States. Many 11 00:00:44,516 --> 00:00:47,796 Speaker 2: people once thought that conversation was completely over. This sports 12 00:00:47,796 --> 00:00:51,756 Speaker 2: betting was de facto illegal forever, with only a few exceptions, 13 00:00:52,396 --> 00:00:55,476 Speaker 2: and furthermore, that the issue would never come up again 14 00:00:56,076 --> 00:01:00,436 Speaker 2: because politicians had decided it. As you may recall, way 15 00:01:00,436 --> 00:01:03,236 Speaker 2: back in the early nineteen nineties, a new Jersey Senator 16 00:01:03,316 --> 00:01:06,676 Speaker 2: named Bill Bradley introduced a bill to keep most states 17 00:01:06,676 --> 00:01:10,836 Speaker 2: from legalizing sports betting. Bradley wasn't just any old senator. 18 00:01:11,436 --> 00:01:14,796 Speaker 2: He'd been a beloved college and professional basketball star. When 19 00:01:14,836 --> 00:01:17,516 Speaker 2: he spoke out about the corrosive effects of sports gambling, 20 00:01:17,956 --> 00:01:18,716 Speaker 2: people listened. 21 00:01:21,596 --> 00:01:25,236 Speaker 3: So I passed this little bill. Who it was not 22 00:01:25,316 --> 00:01:29,196 Speaker 3: a big bill. It was a little bill that banned 23 00:01:29,196 --> 00:01:33,196 Speaker 3: sports betting in the states that didn't have it, and 24 00:01:33,236 --> 00:01:35,076 Speaker 3: it was the law of the Land, and I felt 25 00:01:35,116 --> 00:01:35,796 Speaker 3: good about it. 26 00:01:36,276 --> 00:01:39,236 Speaker 2: That law was called the Professional and Amateur Sports Protection 27 00:01:39,356 --> 00:01:42,676 Speaker 2: Act PASPA, and it held for a couple of decades. 28 00:01:43,236 --> 00:01:47,196 Speaker 2: Earlier this season, I told the story of what happened next. Basically, 29 00:01:47,476 --> 00:01:51,556 Speaker 2: a single state began to challenge PASPA, New Jersey in 30 00:01:51,556 --> 00:01:54,316 Speaker 2: twenty and eleven, and folks in the state of New 31 00:01:54,356 --> 00:01:58,476 Speaker 2: Jersey voted yesterday to legalize sports betting. So eventually the 32 00:01:58,516 --> 00:02:01,156 Speaker 2: issue went all the way to the Supreme Court, and 33 00:02:01,196 --> 00:02:06,356 Speaker 2: the Supreme Court overturned PASPA. Starting in twenty eighteen, states 34 00:02:06,396 --> 00:02:08,956 Speaker 2: were allowed to legalize sports betting, and as of now, 35 00:02:09,236 --> 00:02:10,516 Speaker 2: thirty nine states. 36 00:02:10,156 --> 00:02:10,636 Speaker 1: Have done so. 37 00:02:12,076 --> 00:02:14,676 Speaker 2: For most of the season, I've been reporting on the consequences. 38 00:02:15,116 --> 00:02:18,476 Speaker 2: We've heard about gambling addicts who ruin their lives, college 39 00:02:18,476 --> 00:02:21,916 Speaker 2: and pro athletes who are threatened by angry fans, state 40 00:02:21,996 --> 00:02:24,676 Speaker 2: regulators trying to do anything at all to stop companies 41 00:02:24,676 --> 00:02:28,276 Speaker 2: from luring in under age betters. So the last place 42 00:02:28,316 --> 00:02:31,116 Speaker 2: to go this season is a question who now is 43 00:02:31,156 --> 00:02:33,716 Speaker 2: in a position to do anything about any of this? 44 00:02:35,116 --> 00:02:37,596 Speaker 2: Are there any lawmakers stepping in to be Bill Bradley 45 00:02:37,636 --> 00:02:42,636 Speaker 2: this time around? Democratic Connecticut Senator Richard Blumenthal has stepped 46 00:02:42,676 --> 00:02:45,356 Speaker 2: into this role. He's been on a mission to regulate 47 00:02:45,436 --> 00:02:48,316 Speaker 2: sports betting since it was legalized, and with a US 48 00:02:48,436 --> 00:02:51,196 Speaker 2: Congressman from New York, he's introduced a bill that would 49 00:02:51,196 --> 00:02:55,276 Speaker 2: place restrictions on sports gambling company's ability to advertise and 50 00:02:55,396 --> 00:02:59,676 Speaker 2: offer inducement bets, among other things. The lawmakers say sports 51 00:02:59,676 --> 00:03:01,796 Speaker 2: gambling is turning into a public health crisis. 52 00:03:02,516 --> 00:03:03,676 Speaker 1: I called up Senator. 53 00:03:03,436 --> 00:03:06,476 Speaker 2: Blumenthal and I asked him, how did this issue get 54 00:03:06,516 --> 00:03:07,836 Speaker 2: on his radar In the first place. 55 00:03:09,196 --> 00:03:14,836 Speaker 4: I was working on addiction in various spheres of life. 56 00:03:15,116 --> 00:03:20,636 Speaker 4: I sued the big tobacco companies because they were attracting 57 00:03:20,716 --> 00:03:27,236 Speaker 4: and addicting kids to nikochine. I have been active on 58 00:03:27,356 --> 00:03:32,636 Speaker 4: alcohol issues, drunk driving, and I got to know some 59 00:03:32,716 --> 00:03:36,596 Speaker 4: people who had real life stories about how sports betting 60 00:03:37,196 --> 00:03:44,396 Speaker 4: literally ruined their lives, broke apart, their families, ended their careers, 61 00:03:45,236 --> 00:03:49,876 Speaker 4: and I became more and more interested in how sports 62 00:03:49,916 --> 00:03:55,556 Speaker 4: betting operates. I was approached by people who heard that 63 00:03:56,196 --> 00:04:01,676 Speaker 4: colleges had entered into contracts with the casinos they're promote gambling. 64 00:04:01,996 --> 00:04:08,796 Speaker 4: Absolutely mind boggling that colleges would promote gambling among kids 65 00:04:09,556 --> 00:04:14,276 Speaker 4: who were not permitted legally to gamble. So it is 66 00:04:14,596 --> 00:04:22,676 Speaker 4: a pervasive and huge industry in America, and nobody's focused 67 00:04:22,676 --> 00:04:27,876 Speaker 4: on the serious damaging consequences. 68 00:04:27,916 --> 00:04:30,276 Speaker 2: It's kind of shocking to me that more people aren't 69 00:04:30,356 --> 00:04:31,356 Speaker 2: upset right now. 70 00:04:32,796 --> 00:04:36,276 Speaker 4: First of all, it appears so benign. I mean, what 71 00:04:36,356 --> 00:04:40,796 Speaker 4: could go wrong sports betting? Sports is good betting, Hey, 72 00:04:40,876 --> 00:04:45,996 Speaker 4: everybody bets. Second, a lot of it is invisible. You know, 73 00:04:46,156 --> 00:04:49,956 Speaker 4: it's no longer placing a bet to a physical person 74 00:04:50,036 --> 00:04:54,356 Speaker 4: the bookie who then in the old days was a 75 00:04:54,396 --> 00:04:56,756 Speaker 4: part of the mob in essence and could use the 76 00:04:56,796 --> 00:05:00,796 Speaker 4: mob to extort. There were physical consequences and crime involved 77 00:05:00,876 --> 00:05:05,716 Speaker 4: in sports betting. Third, I think that there is a 78 00:05:05,836 --> 00:05:08,996 Speaker 4: kind of denial that takes place, as it does with 79 00:05:09,116 --> 00:05:13,196 Speaker 4: any addiction. You know, people are in denial often about 80 00:05:13,756 --> 00:05:19,396 Speaker 4: alcoholism or drug addictions, and gambling addiction is no different. 81 00:05:19,436 --> 00:05:23,116 Speaker 4: People don't want to acknowledge they're going through a divorce 82 00:05:23,196 --> 00:05:27,916 Speaker 4: or separation because the financial problems and the frustrations of 83 00:05:27,956 --> 00:05:31,716 Speaker 4: the spouse or significant other rose to a level that 84 00:05:32,156 --> 00:05:34,036 Speaker 4: would no longer sustain the relationship. 85 00:05:34,676 --> 00:05:35,956 Speaker 1: I learned about sports betting. 86 00:05:36,716 --> 00:05:39,036 Speaker 2: My tool is the pen. I can write about it, 87 00:05:39,076 --> 00:05:42,036 Speaker 2: I can talk about it. You're a senator, you can 88 00:05:42,076 --> 00:05:45,116 Speaker 2: do something about it. How does the issue rise to 89 00:05:45,196 --> 00:05:47,836 Speaker 2: the level of concern with you and then that you 90 00:05:47,916 --> 00:05:50,636 Speaker 2: might actually take some action, introduce some legislation. 91 00:05:51,316 --> 00:05:54,076 Speaker 4: How does a legislator get the idea for a new law. 92 00:05:55,396 --> 00:05:59,156 Speaker 4: It's often just by listening or reading. So I was 93 00:05:59,196 --> 00:06:01,996 Speaker 4: listening to people who told me about this problem. I 94 00:06:02,036 --> 00:06:05,036 Speaker 4: am not a sports better nothing wrong with sports betting, 95 00:06:05,076 --> 00:06:08,196 Speaker 4: per se. Keep in mind, I'm not trying to ban 96 00:06:08,276 --> 00:06:11,876 Speaker 4: in sports betting. Yeah, just make sure there are safeguards 97 00:06:12,116 --> 00:06:13,596 Speaker 4: to stop problem. 98 00:06:13,356 --> 00:06:15,556 Speaker 1: Gambling before you even write the law. 99 00:06:15,596 --> 00:06:18,156 Speaker 2: Do you just kind of even sound out your colleagues 100 00:06:18,196 --> 00:06:20,636 Speaker 2: to see if there's any hope for such a law passing. 101 00:06:21,436 --> 00:06:25,556 Speaker 4: I do talk to colleagues to determine whether they're interested, 102 00:06:25,596 --> 00:06:28,956 Speaker 4: whether other like minded colleagues would want to join me. 103 00:06:29,956 --> 00:06:36,156 Speaker 4: And I also talk to experts in the field, because 104 00:06:36,196 --> 00:06:39,116 Speaker 4: I don't trust my own judgment alone. I want to 105 00:06:39,156 --> 00:06:44,356 Speaker 4: talk to the problem gambling experts, and I talk to 106 00:06:45,476 --> 00:06:49,356 Speaker 4: leaders in the Senate, for example, what are the chances 107 00:06:49,356 --> 00:06:51,836 Speaker 4: of this thing getting passed? What do you think about it? 108 00:06:51,956 --> 00:06:54,436 Speaker 4: Let me have a hearing. That's the second part of 109 00:06:54,436 --> 00:06:58,156 Speaker 4: what we do. Try to build the public case for legislation, 110 00:06:59,156 --> 00:07:03,636 Speaker 4: and then that you know, after the legislation is written 111 00:07:04,316 --> 00:07:08,716 Speaker 4: and I introduce it and we have hearings, then at 112 00:07:08,716 --> 00:07:12,716 Speaker 4: some point the committee will hopefully vote it out of 113 00:07:12,836 --> 00:07:15,716 Speaker 4: committee to the floor of the United States Senate where 114 00:07:15,716 --> 00:07:17,356 Speaker 4: it would pass. Obviously it has to go through the 115 00:07:17,396 --> 00:07:21,636 Speaker 4: House of Representative as well. That's the legislative process. In 116 00:07:22,396 --> 00:07:23,276 Speaker 4: thumbnail sketch. 117 00:07:24,036 --> 00:07:28,956 Speaker 2: And you're after talking to experts and talking to the 118 00:07:28,956 --> 00:07:33,116 Speaker 2: people in your districts, and what did you decide needed 119 00:07:33,116 --> 00:07:35,196 Speaker 2: to be done at the federal level, what did the 120 00:07:35,276 --> 00:07:36,116 Speaker 2: law need to do. 121 00:07:36,836 --> 00:07:40,036 Speaker 4: I was a federal prosecutor back in the day. I 122 00:07:40,116 --> 00:07:43,236 Speaker 4: was the US attorney and connected. We did some criminal 123 00:07:43,316 --> 00:07:48,476 Speaker 4: cases against the mob extortion people, and I learned something 124 00:07:48,516 --> 00:07:52,916 Speaker 4: about bookies and sports betting and so forth in the 125 00:07:54,236 --> 00:07:57,676 Speaker 4: old days. What impressed me about this industry was how 126 00:07:57,756 --> 00:08:02,436 Speaker 4: advanced it is technological, how they can target you because 127 00:08:02,436 --> 00:08:05,836 Speaker 4: they know you really like to bet on whether the 128 00:08:05,956 --> 00:08:10,116 Speaker 4: quarterback is going to be tackled eighteen times in the 129 00:08:10,116 --> 00:08:15,396 Speaker 4: first quarter, or whether you want to bet on whether 130 00:08:16,676 --> 00:08:20,516 Speaker 4: so and so, you know running back will catch a 131 00:08:20,596 --> 00:08:23,236 Speaker 4: touchdown in the third quarter. There are all these are 132 00:08:23,436 --> 00:08:29,356 Speaker 4: kain different ways to bet these days prop betting as 133 00:08:29,356 --> 00:08:31,996 Speaker 4: it's called, and the reason it's possible is because the 134 00:08:32,036 --> 00:08:35,076 Speaker 4: technology is so advanced that you can make that beack. 135 00:08:35,156 --> 00:08:41,156 Speaker 4: But also it enables them to pitch you with promotions 136 00:08:41,676 --> 00:08:45,876 Speaker 4: and bonuses, and if you haven't bet before, they can 137 00:08:45,956 --> 00:08:51,116 Speaker 4: offer you a free bet no lose bet. Yeah, And 138 00:08:51,156 --> 00:08:54,196 Speaker 4: then if you win, of course you're going to bet again, 139 00:08:54,476 --> 00:08:57,476 Speaker 4: and they'll pitch you again and again. And here's the 140 00:08:57,556 --> 00:09:01,916 Speaker 4: other dirty little secret here. If you're losing, they will 141 00:09:01,956 --> 00:09:04,596 Speaker 4: continue to target you. That's the way they make money. 142 00:09:04,876 --> 00:09:09,556 Speaker 4: If you're winning, they throttle you. That's the term. They 143 00:09:09,596 --> 00:09:13,196 Speaker 4: don't want you to bet because when you win, it 144 00:09:13,316 --> 00:09:16,356 Speaker 4: means less money for them, the sports betting company. So 145 00:09:16,516 --> 00:09:20,196 Speaker 4: that's what attracted me in the sense of wanting to 146 00:09:20,236 --> 00:09:22,316 Speaker 4: do something about it, because it seems so unfair that 147 00:09:23,636 --> 00:09:28,396 Speaker 4: the house, so to speak, had this technological advantage through 148 00:09:28,516 --> 00:09:33,996 Speaker 4: algorithms and artificial intelligence that could put you at a 149 00:09:34,036 --> 00:09:37,996 Speaker 4: disadvantage not just in a single bet, but also make 150 00:09:38,036 --> 00:09:40,716 Speaker 4: you more vulnerable to problem gambling. 151 00:09:43,516 --> 00:09:47,916 Speaker 2: When we return, I find out exactly how Senator Bluementhal 152 00:09:47,956 --> 00:09:50,236 Speaker 2: wants to regulate sports camp like on the federal level 153 00:09:50,716 --> 00:10:03,796 Speaker 2: and encourage states to regulate it as well. We're back 154 00:10:03,796 --> 00:10:07,316 Speaker 2: with Connecticut Senator Richard Blumenthal. I will say that his bill, 155 00:10:07,796 --> 00:10:10,036 Speaker 2: introduced in the fall of two thousan twenty four with 156 00:10:10,116 --> 00:10:13,316 Speaker 2: the New York Democratic Congressman Paul Tonko, has a much 157 00:10:13,316 --> 00:10:18,476 Speaker 2: better acronym than PASPA. It's called Supporting Affordability and Fairness 158 00:10:18,476 --> 00:10:22,116 Speaker 2: with Every Bet, or the Safe Bet Act. 159 00:10:22,836 --> 00:10:25,716 Speaker 4: There are two approaches to the legislation. One is to 160 00:10:25,796 --> 00:10:29,796 Speaker 4: try to set standards for those promotions and pitches and 161 00:10:30,596 --> 00:10:33,276 Speaker 4: the hours when they can do advertising. And the other 162 00:10:34,156 --> 00:10:38,076 Speaker 4: bill is to take money from the excise tax. You know, 163 00:10:38,116 --> 00:10:43,676 Speaker 4: there's a point zero two five excise tax on all gambling, 164 00:10:44,356 --> 00:10:48,876 Speaker 4: and to use part of it for treatment of problem gambling. 165 00:10:49,556 --> 00:10:52,316 Speaker 4: So I kind of took a while to come up 166 00:10:52,356 --> 00:10:53,316 Speaker 4: with the two approaches. 167 00:10:53,996 --> 00:10:56,156 Speaker 2: The first approach is the one that interests me most 168 00:10:56,196 --> 00:10:58,636 Speaker 2: because the gambling industry is perfectly happy to have all 169 00:10:58,636 --> 00:11:01,476 Speaker 2: the attention focused on the problem gambler like it's their fault. 170 00:11:01,996 --> 00:11:04,476 Speaker 2: It has nothing to do with the way the environment 171 00:11:04,556 --> 00:11:08,076 Speaker 2: is designed to create in mind addiction, and in fact, 172 00:11:08,116 --> 00:11:11,636 Speaker 2: the playbook of the gambler industry from before sports gambling 173 00:11:11,956 --> 00:11:14,516 Speaker 2: has been to sort of like, oh, people need to 174 00:11:14,556 --> 00:11:16,516 Speaker 2: learn how to control themselves. And there's some people who 175 00:11:16,556 --> 00:11:18,956 Speaker 2: have an illness and we'll just treat them. So this 176 00:11:19,116 --> 00:11:23,076 Speaker 2: first part attempts to kind of constrict the industry. 177 00:11:24,076 --> 00:11:25,636 Speaker 1: What do you think needs to be done? 178 00:11:26,036 --> 00:11:30,036 Speaker 4: The framework of this bill is fairly straightforward. First of all, 179 00:11:31,156 --> 00:11:37,076 Speaker 4: betting anywhere in any state requires that there be state standards. 180 00:11:39,036 --> 00:11:42,076 Speaker 4: We want the states to be actively involved, but the 181 00:11:42,156 --> 00:11:47,156 Speaker 4: standards have to comply with certain minimums set in federal legislation, 182 00:11:47,876 --> 00:11:56,116 Speaker 4: and those minimums prohibit, for example, sports betting broadcast advertising 183 00:11:56,116 --> 00:12:00,916 Speaker 4: between eight am and ten PM. Prohibits sports betting advertising 184 00:12:01,116 --> 00:12:06,956 Speaker 4: during the sporting event, advertisements designed to induce gambling with 185 00:12:07,556 --> 00:12:13,876 Speaker 4: bonus no sweat bonus bets. We prohibit sports betting advertising 186 00:12:13,956 --> 00:12:18,596 Speaker 4: designed to induce use of gambling products by showing audiences 187 00:12:18,676 --> 00:12:23,716 Speaker 4: how to gamble or explaining how wagers work. But those 188 00:12:23,796 --> 00:12:25,956 Speaker 4: are all advertising constraints. 189 00:12:26,116 --> 00:12:27,516 Speaker 1: What's number two on your list? 190 00:12:27,676 --> 00:12:34,876 Speaker 4: Second aspect relates to affordability, and that is for the 191 00:12:34,916 --> 00:12:40,276 Speaker 4: promoters or the sports betting businesses to avoid exploiting people 192 00:12:40,476 --> 00:12:43,236 Speaker 4: when they know they can't afford what they're doing. Basically 193 00:12:44,596 --> 00:12:50,236 Speaker 4: prohibits operators from accepting more than five deposits from a 194 00:12:50,276 --> 00:12:54,596 Speaker 4: single customer in a twenty four hour period, prohibits operators 195 00:12:54,636 --> 00:13:01,476 Speaker 4: from accepting deposits via credit card. It requires affordability checks 196 00:13:01,516 --> 00:13:05,236 Speaker 4: if there is a certain amount of gambling, and it 197 00:13:05,316 --> 00:13:10,076 Speaker 4: requires a national clearinghouse for people to be able to 198 00:13:10,356 --> 00:13:15,356 Speaker 4: exclude themselves. This point is really important. It is, you know, 199 00:13:15,756 --> 00:13:21,636 Speaker 4: the self exclusion part. A lot of people know they're 200 00:13:21,636 --> 00:13:24,156 Speaker 4: betting too much, you know, they know they're getting in 201 00:13:24,316 --> 00:13:26,636 Speaker 4: over their heads, and they want to be able to stop. 202 00:13:27,036 --> 00:13:31,476 Speaker 4: But the nature of addiction, obviously is they can't stop 203 00:13:32,116 --> 00:13:37,476 Speaker 4: as long as you know the betting is out there 204 00:13:37,556 --> 00:13:41,716 Speaker 4: right in front of them. So if you know, you 205 00:13:41,716 --> 00:13:44,156 Speaker 4: know you're looking at your wife, you're looking at your kids, 206 00:13:44,196 --> 00:13:47,556 Speaker 4: you're getting into death, that's going to force you to 207 00:13:47,556 --> 00:13:51,956 Speaker 4: give up your house, and you say yourself, I got 208 00:13:51,956 --> 00:13:56,876 Speaker 4: to stop. I need help. I want someone to tell 209 00:13:56,916 --> 00:14:02,476 Speaker 4: me you can't gamble. So there is a possibility for 210 00:14:02,676 --> 00:14:08,476 Speaker 4: self exclusion to stop not just the advertising, but also 211 00:14:09,476 --> 00:14:11,356 Speaker 4: potentially the access. 212 00:14:11,836 --> 00:14:13,676 Speaker 2: So if I put my name on this list, I 213 00:14:13,716 --> 00:14:15,716 Speaker 2: can't just take my name off that the list when 214 00:14:15,756 --> 00:14:17,316 Speaker 2: I want to when I want to gamble, I put 215 00:14:17,356 --> 00:14:18,956 Speaker 2: it on the list, and it's I'm stuck. 216 00:14:20,076 --> 00:14:22,916 Speaker 4: That's roughly the way it works. I mean, at a 217 00:14:22,916 --> 00:14:24,876 Speaker 4: at a certain point you could probably take your name 218 00:14:24,956 --> 00:14:28,396 Speaker 4: off the list. It's not you're not bound forever, but 219 00:14:28,516 --> 00:14:32,556 Speaker 4: at least then you turn on you know, your computer 220 00:14:33,316 --> 00:14:36,116 Speaker 4: or you know your cell phone. This is how you 221 00:14:36,156 --> 00:14:43,596 Speaker 4: bet your smartphone now is your casino. You're in a casino, yep. 222 00:14:43,996 --> 00:14:46,476 Speaker 4: And we want you to be able to say to 223 00:14:46,556 --> 00:14:49,756 Speaker 4: that smartphone, look, I just picked it up. I want 224 00:14:49,756 --> 00:14:54,076 Speaker 4: to gamble, and it says no. And then I realize 225 00:14:55,076 --> 00:14:57,236 Speaker 4: this is how I get into trouble. And you put 226 00:14:57,596 --> 00:15:01,676 Speaker 4: the smartphone back down and you go on to do 227 00:15:01,796 --> 00:15:05,436 Speaker 4: something else and it catches you before you used to 228 00:15:05,476 --> 00:15:10,156 Speaker 4: come Now, I'm far from naive. This is not a 229 00:15:10,196 --> 00:15:13,916 Speaker 4: full proof that method of breaking an addiction, right. You know, 230 00:15:14,996 --> 00:15:18,956 Speaker 4: there are all kinds of different ways to break gambling addiction, 231 00:15:19,116 --> 00:15:21,236 Speaker 4: just as there are nicotine you know, some people use 232 00:15:21,276 --> 00:15:25,916 Speaker 4: a patch, some people can do it without anything. It's 233 00:15:25,996 --> 00:15:30,476 Speaker 4: hard to break nicotine addiction, just like any drug addiction. 234 00:15:30,556 --> 00:15:32,916 Speaker 4: But it's also hard to break gambling addiction. 235 00:15:33,596 --> 00:15:36,116 Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting you're in this piece of the 236 00:15:36,196 --> 00:15:39,836 Speaker 2: legislation where you're dealing with the kind of like forcing 237 00:15:39,876 --> 00:15:42,876 Speaker 2: some of the responsibility for the behavior of the gamblers 238 00:15:43,996 --> 00:15:48,756 Speaker 2: onto the companies that are benefiting from their behavior. One 239 00:15:48,756 --> 00:15:51,396 Speaker 2: of the things that's just been shocking to me is 240 00:15:52,316 --> 00:15:57,556 Speaker 2: state by state, the gambling industry has has persuaded regulators 241 00:15:57,556 --> 00:16:00,996 Speaker 2: that that they of course need to be able to 242 00:16:01,036 --> 00:16:06,396 Speaker 2: monitor the activity of their customers, the gamblers. And the 243 00:16:07,156 --> 00:16:09,876 Speaker 2: reason is that they say is that we want to 244 00:16:09,916 --> 00:16:11,716 Speaker 2: you know, we want to be able to identify gamblers 245 00:16:11,716 --> 00:16:13,476 Speaker 2: who are doing things they shouldn't be doing it's bad 246 00:16:13,516 --> 00:16:16,276 Speaker 2: for them. In fact, the only thing they do is 247 00:16:16,356 --> 00:16:18,596 Speaker 2: monitor for the people who are winning and know what 248 00:16:18,636 --> 00:16:21,196 Speaker 2: they're doing so they can chuck them off the platforms. 249 00:16:21,556 --> 00:16:24,876 Speaker 2: And the state regulators we've talked to know of no 250 00:16:24,996 --> 00:16:27,756 Speaker 2: case like where the company said you've got to stop 251 00:16:27,796 --> 00:16:31,316 Speaker 2: because you have a problem, and a lot of cases 252 00:16:31,356 --> 00:16:34,036 Speaker 2: where people come and say, I have a problem. You know, 253 00:16:34,196 --> 00:16:36,516 Speaker 2: you got to kind of limit me, and and the 254 00:16:36,516 --> 00:16:41,036 Speaker 2: companies continues to pitch to them. We know that the 255 00:16:41,076 --> 00:16:43,636 Speaker 2: companies know they have such great data on their on 256 00:16:43,676 --> 00:16:47,516 Speaker 2: the gamblers. We know that they can identify problem gamblers 257 00:16:47,556 --> 00:16:52,276 Speaker 2: better than problem gamblers probably could ever be identified in history. Uh, 258 00:16:52,356 --> 00:16:54,796 Speaker 2: how do you how do you how do you regulate this, like, 259 00:16:54,836 --> 00:16:58,556 Speaker 2: how do you actually force the issue so that they 260 00:16:58,556 --> 00:17:01,236 Speaker 2: get in real trouble. Do you put regulators inside the 261 00:17:01,276 --> 00:17:04,596 Speaker 2: gambling companies? Do you you just you trust them to report? 262 00:17:04,796 --> 00:17:11,996 Speaker 4: That question goes to the next provision of the legislation, 263 00:17:12,836 --> 00:17:17,596 Speaker 4: which relates to artificial intelligence. This legislation would prohibit the 264 00:17:17,676 --> 00:17:23,516 Speaker 4: use of AI artificial intelligence to track and individual gamblers 265 00:17:24,156 --> 00:17:27,636 Speaker 4: habits yep. And it would also prohibit the use of 266 00:17:27,676 --> 00:17:34,036 Speaker 4: AI to create individualized offers and promotions the customers. I 267 00:17:34,116 --> 00:17:42,396 Speaker 4: was describing earlier hypothetical and how the gambling industry can 268 00:17:42,636 --> 00:17:46,476 Speaker 4: target people who are winning and if they are losing, 269 00:17:46,676 --> 00:17:50,996 Speaker 4: and what kinds of bets they like to place, what 270 00:17:51,236 --> 00:17:57,356 Speaker 4: sports and so forth, and the sports betting companies can't 271 00:17:57,356 --> 00:18:00,916 Speaker 4: do it without artificial intelligence. So the prohibition against that 272 00:18:01,036 --> 00:18:06,956 Speaker 4: kind of tracking and individualized promoting is very important. So, no, 273 00:18:07,116 --> 00:18:12,596 Speaker 4: we don't put regulators inside the companies. And you know, 274 00:18:12,876 --> 00:18:15,796 Speaker 4: in an ideal world, we might be a little bit 275 00:18:15,836 --> 00:18:20,716 Speaker 4: more heavy handed in terms of the intervention in the companies. 276 00:18:21,596 --> 00:18:25,556 Speaker 4: I've tried to think through this concept of a duty 277 00:18:25,596 --> 00:18:29,996 Speaker 4: of care. You know, if you're a bartender in a 278 00:18:30,036 --> 00:18:34,276 Speaker 4: bar and you serve somebody who is drunk a drink 279 00:18:34,796 --> 00:18:40,956 Speaker 4: and that person hits and kills another person behind the wheel. 280 00:18:42,356 --> 00:18:46,796 Speaker 4: You have in most states, I think it maybe all 281 00:18:46,836 --> 00:18:53,276 Speaker 4: states now a liability. The tobacco companies have been held liable. 282 00:18:53,676 --> 00:18:57,116 Speaker 4: I know because I sued them and we got quite 283 00:18:57,116 --> 00:18:59,676 Speaker 4: a bit of money. But we also changed their practices 284 00:19:00,316 --> 00:19:05,636 Speaker 4: and now they are often held liable if they deceive people. 285 00:19:06,796 --> 00:19:11,116 Speaker 4: We can't stop them from selling cigarette, but they can 286 00:19:11,196 --> 00:19:18,556 Speaker 4: be held responsible for breaches of their duty. And the 287 00:19:18,596 --> 00:19:24,156 Speaker 4: importance here of taking or eliminating some of the means 288 00:19:24,196 --> 00:19:30,596 Speaker 4: that are used that promote addiction. The goal here is 289 00:19:30,596 --> 00:19:36,516 Speaker 4: to increase the standards that states apply when they regulate gambling. 290 00:19:36,556 --> 00:19:40,036 Speaker 4: They are the regulators. Ultimately, we're not going to regulate 291 00:19:40,076 --> 00:19:45,516 Speaker 4: it with a federal gambling regulatory authority. We're not creating 292 00:19:45,756 --> 00:19:48,916 Speaker 4: a new bureaucracy. We want to make sure that these 293 00:19:48,956 --> 00:19:50,796 Speaker 4: standards are enforceable. 294 00:19:51,476 --> 00:19:54,156 Speaker 2: Who make sure at the federal level that the states 295 00:19:54,156 --> 00:19:55,836 Speaker 2: are meeting the minimum standards. 296 00:19:56,436 --> 00:19:58,156 Speaker 1: There's got to be some federal oversight. 297 00:19:58,516 --> 00:20:03,996 Speaker 4: In effect, the federal government would ban gambling if they 298 00:20:04,036 --> 00:20:09,556 Speaker 4: fail to meet the standards, and the enforcement authority for 299 00:20:09,716 --> 00:20:13,396 Speaker 4: taking action by the federal government would be the Department 300 00:20:13,396 --> 00:20:17,196 Speaker 4: of Justice. The Department of Justice has ultimate authority to 301 00:20:17,316 --> 00:20:22,996 Speaker 4: say those standards in Connecticut or New York meet the 302 00:20:23,036 --> 00:20:26,956 Speaker 4: federal minimums. They're doing everything they need to do. We 303 00:20:26,996 --> 00:20:30,796 Speaker 4: also prohibit the use of AI to create gambling products 304 00:20:30,836 --> 00:20:33,396 Speaker 4: like micro bets on amateur sports. 305 00:20:33,636 --> 00:20:36,756 Speaker 2: Oh, you ban bets on amateur sports. 306 00:20:36,796 --> 00:20:43,436 Speaker 4: We prohibit bets on amateur sports, with some exceptions for Olympics, Paralympics, 307 00:20:43,516 --> 00:20:52,676 Speaker 4: and some college sports. We also prohibit all proposition bets 308 00:20:53,356 --> 00:20:56,636 Speaker 4: featuring college or Olympic athletes. 309 00:20:56,756 --> 00:21:00,116 Speaker 2: So this is very clearly a dark side of this 310 00:21:00,356 --> 00:21:03,876 Speaker 2: is the pressure on young people who are playing sports 311 00:21:04,676 --> 00:21:08,836 Speaker 2: to modify the betters who are betting on their behavior, 312 00:21:09,236 --> 00:21:12,676 Speaker 2: and the threats they're getting are it's just it's crazy. 313 00:21:12,716 --> 00:21:15,156 Speaker 2: They feel like they're essentially they feel like they're all 314 00:21:15,196 --> 00:21:18,316 Speaker 2: working for the mob, and the mob is going to 315 00:21:18,316 --> 00:21:20,436 Speaker 2: come decap them if they don't do the thing they're 316 00:21:20,436 --> 00:21:22,316 Speaker 2: supposed to do on the field, or don't do it. 317 00:21:24,236 --> 00:21:26,236 Speaker 2: On that thought, I'm going to interrupt myself so we 318 00:21:26,236 --> 00:21:30,076 Speaker 2: can take a quick break. When't we return, Senator Blumenthal 319 00:21:30,156 --> 00:21:32,596 Speaker 2: talks about why it's important to get sports gambling on 320 00:21:32,636 --> 00:21:35,676 Speaker 2: the nation's radar as a public health issue? Can I 321 00:21:35,716 --> 00:21:51,956 Speaker 2: do a little lobbying of my own? I'm back with 322 00:21:52,036 --> 00:21:55,076 Speaker 2: Senator Richard Blumenthal. I asked him what else he wants 323 00:21:55,076 --> 00:21:57,356 Speaker 2: to see happen besides the passage of his own Safe 324 00:21:57,396 --> 00:21:57,916 Speaker 2: Bet Act. 325 00:21:58,276 --> 00:22:01,836 Speaker 4: This may sound inconsequential, but it could be important. A 326 00:22:01,916 --> 00:22:06,916 Speaker 4: Surgeon General report on the public health impacts of sports betting, 327 00:22:07,476 --> 00:22:10,156 Speaker 4: which goes to the very first question that you asked me. 328 00:22:11,036 --> 00:22:14,956 Speaker 4: Why aren't there others who care about this issue? There's 329 00:22:14,996 --> 00:22:22,556 Speaker 4: a very powerful, well resourced in industry that wants to 330 00:22:22,636 --> 00:22:27,956 Speaker 4: squelch awareness. And the challenge here is to elevate to 331 00:22:28,236 --> 00:22:32,476 Speaker 4: raise awareness, partly to get this legislation done, but also 332 00:22:32,636 --> 00:22:39,716 Speaker 4: because erasing the self denial, getting families to focus on 333 00:22:39,956 --> 00:22:43,276 Speaker 4: the problem. Gambler, Well, maybe people will begin asking that 334 00:22:43,396 --> 00:22:48,716 Speaker 4: question like they do now with alcoholism, you know, bring 335 00:22:48,756 --> 00:22:49,556 Speaker 4: it out in the open. 336 00:22:50,196 --> 00:22:52,636 Speaker 2: What I'm curious, does the sports gambling industry and the 337 00:22:52,676 --> 00:22:55,916 Speaker 2: sports gambling problem remind you of anything specifically? 338 00:22:56,356 --> 00:22:57,196 Speaker 1: What's the precedent? 339 00:22:58,476 --> 00:23:01,676 Speaker 4: It reminds me a lot about tobacco. You know, there 340 00:23:01,756 --> 00:23:06,996 Speaker 4: was a time when advertisements for smoking actually had doctors 341 00:23:07,196 --> 00:23:12,996 Speaker 4: in their white coats recommending Chesterfield I remember very vividly 342 00:23:13,036 --> 00:23:19,116 Speaker 4: because my mom smoked. Eventually, unfortunately she died from diseases 343 00:23:19,436 --> 00:23:23,236 Speaker 4: related to tobacco. But I can remember the ads that said, 344 00:23:23,276 --> 00:23:29,916 Speaker 4: in effect, doctors recommend Chesterfield cigarettes like this is healthy 345 00:23:29,996 --> 00:23:34,516 Speaker 4: for you, helps you lose weight well in a certain way. 346 00:23:34,556 --> 00:23:40,676 Speaker 4: I'm reminded of it because it's a seemingly harmless activity 347 00:23:40,756 --> 00:23:46,196 Speaker 4: with an invisible effect that can be highly disruptive. Sports 348 00:23:46,196 --> 00:23:49,556 Speaker 4: bending industry is tremendously powerful, Needless to say, I've heard 349 00:23:49,556 --> 00:23:53,036 Speaker 4: from them and they want me to go away. They 350 00:23:53,676 --> 00:24:01,476 Speaker 4: have huge resources to lobby and to do advertising, and 351 00:24:01,956 --> 00:24:06,276 Speaker 4: they are engaged in both to a great scale. But 352 00:24:06,316 --> 00:24:10,196 Speaker 4: the tobacco industry was also very, very powerful, and they 353 00:24:10,236 --> 00:24:13,396 Speaker 4: spend a lot of money to try to keep us 354 00:24:14,156 --> 00:24:20,836 Speaker 4: silent and stop our litigation and in effect, to see people. 355 00:24:21,436 --> 00:24:22,596 Speaker 1: You think the future is for the bill. 356 00:24:22,916 --> 00:24:27,916 Speaker 4: I think at some point the bill will pass. I 357 00:24:27,996 --> 00:24:31,796 Speaker 4: can't tell you when. I also think that states will 358 00:24:32,236 --> 00:24:37,956 Speaker 4: raise their standards on their own, because the public awareness 359 00:24:37,956 --> 00:24:42,956 Speaker 4: we're generating will affect state legislatures. I was a state 360 00:24:42,956 --> 00:24:47,316 Speaker 4: attorney general of Connecticut, and before that job, I was 361 00:24:47,356 --> 00:24:50,116 Speaker 4: in the state legislature. It is so much easier to 362 00:24:50,116 --> 00:24:54,156 Speaker 4: get things done in state legislatures than it is in 363 00:24:54,356 --> 00:24:57,596 Speaker 4: the United States capital because the stakes are so much 364 00:24:57,636 --> 00:25:00,596 Speaker 4: higher here. I want to put in a plug for 365 00:25:00,676 --> 00:25:07,156 Speaker 4: my other act. I do think that channeling money into 366 00:25:08,356 --> 00:25:14,796 Speaker 4: problem gambling addiction treatment is very, very important. You know, 367 00:25:14,876 --> 00:25:18,836 Speaker 4: we have programs to treat all the other addictions, literally, 368 00:25:18,996 --> 00:25:23,916 Speaker 4: all the other addictions, none for gambling addiction. And so 369 00:25:24,156 --> 00:25:28,676 Speaker 4: taking a part of the revenue that comes to the 370 00:25:28,716 --> 00:25:32,476 Speaker 4: government as a result of gambling or sports betting, I 371 00:25:32,516 --> 00:25:37,396 Speaker 4: think appropriately could be used for state programs as well 372 00:25:37,436 --> 00:25:42,316 Speaker 4: as federal programs to treat gambling addiction. And I think 373 00:25:42,476 --> 00:25:47,836 Speaker 4: that bill is the more likely to pass more quickly 374 00:25:50,116 --> 00:25:55,556 Speaker 4: because it may arouse less opposition from the industry for 375 00:25:55,596 --> 00:25:58,516 Speaker 4: the very reason that you have said. A lot of 376 00:25:58,516 --> 00:26:01,076 Speaker 4: the companies are more than happy to say, oh, we 377 00:26:01,156 --> 00:26:04,476 Speaker 4: have no problem gambling, and whenever we encounter it, of 378 00:26:04,556 --> 00:26:07,276 Speaker 4: course we offer programs to deal with. 379 00:26:07,636 --> 00:26:09,996 Speaker 1: Right, I'm gonna let you go, but I do I 380 00:26:09,996 --> 00:26:11,756 Speaker 1: do want to pitch you what I think needs to 381 00:26:11,756 --> 00:26:12,196 Speaker 1: be done. 382 00:26:13,356 --> 00:26:16,276 Speaker 2: So at the top of my list and my wish 383 00:26:16,316 --> 00:26:19,396 Speaker 2: list for any bill would be a ban on advertising 384 00:26:20,076 --> 00:26:25,596 Speaker 2: explicit a statement of the odds of the bets so 385 00:26:25,596 --> 00:26:31,076 Speaker 2: so that you see so there's some transparency there and 386 00:26:31,156 --> 00:26:34,836 Speaker 2: the how the how this gets done is again tricky. 387 00:26:34,916 --> 00:26:39,116 Speaker 2: But the using of the technology, they have to understand 388 00:26:39,116 --> 00:26:41,476 Speaker 2: the gambler for the purposes that they say they're using 389 00:26:41,516 --> 00:26:43,396 Speaker 2: it for, which is to identify the problem gambler and 390 00:26:43,436 --> 00:26:46,476 Speaker 2: prevent them from getting into trouble. Unlike the cigarette companies 391 00:26:46,476 --> 00:26:48,796 Speaker 2: who don't know their customers. You know, they knew generally 392 00:26:48,836 --> 00:26:51,196 Speaker 2: that people were getting addicted, but in this case, you 393 00:26:51,316 --> 00:26:55,116 Speaker 2: know that Joe Bob has got a problem, and and 394 00:26:55,396 --> 00:26:58,396 Speaker 2: you could just stop Joe Bob from gambling, and it's 395 00:26:58,516 --> 00:27:00,836 Speaker 2: it's it's it is in theory really. 396 00:27:00,636 --> 00:27:01,916 Speaker 1: Fixable in some ways. 397 00:27:02,036 --> 00:27:05,196 Speaker 2: And to foist that responsibility upon them because they have 398 00:27:05,316 --> 00:27:09,396 Speaker 2: the knowledge and so those would be like the big 399 00:27:09,796 --> 00:27:13,436 Speaker 2: my Big three. There's a whole gray market which isn't 400 00:27:13,436 --> 00:27:15,436 Speaker 2: fan duel and draftings because they don't want to get 401 00:27:15,476 --> 00:27:19,356 Speaker 2: in this kind of trouble, but the marketing of an 402 00:27:19,556 --> 00:27:22,796 Speaker 2: exploitation of minors. There isn't a high school in the country, 403 00:27:22,836 --> 00:27:25,556 Speaker 2: I bet where there aren't kids gambling on sports. And 404 00:27:26,476 --> 00:27:29,036 Speaker 2: in college it's like sixty percent of the men on 405 00:27:29,076 --> 00:27:30,396 Speaker 2: college campuses. 406 00:27:29,956 --> 00:27:31,076 Speaker 1: Are gambling on sports. 407 00:27:31,636 --> 00:27:36,516 Speaker 2: Most those people are underage, So hammering people for taking 408 00:27:36,596 --> 00:27:39,996 Speaker 2: underage bets because that's a period, especially with young men, 409 00:27:40,316 --> 00:27:44,956 Speaker 2: those brains are very vulnerable and if you can if 410 00:27:44,996 --> 00:27:47,596 Speaker 2: you can protect people in that window, they have a 411 00:27:47,636 --> 00:27:49,556 Speaker 2: much better chance of never getting into trouble in the 412 00:27:49,556 --> 00:27:50,076 Speaker 2: first place. 413 00:27:50,596 --> 00:27:54,636 Speaker 4: Those are great ideas. I love all of them. On 414 00:27:54,716 --> 00:27:59,076 Speaker 4: the underage gambling issue, enforcement has always been a problem, 415 00:27:59,276 --> 00:28:04,516 Speaker 4: you know, whether it's tobacco, liquor anything involving social media. 416 00:28:06,076 --> 00:28:10,596 Speaker 4: Age verification is really problematic because kids are ahead of 417 00:28:10,596 --> 00:28:11,436 Speaker 4: our technology. 418 00:28:11,516 --> 00:28:15,476 Speaker 1: Yeah, I understand you, and I yes, I understand. I understand, 419 00:28:15,516 --> 00:28:17,596 Speaker 1: but at least banging that drum a little bit. 420 00:28:18,196 --> 00:28:21,516 Speaker 2: I really appreciate you giving us all this time. You 421 00:28:22,276 --> 00:28:26,316 Speaker 2: got important things to do, and so thank you, and 422 00:28:26,356 --> 00:28:29,596 Speaker 2: good luck with dealing with this tornado. 423 00:28:29,796 --> 00:28:32,796 Speaker 4: Thank you, take care, Bye bye bye bye. 424 00:28:34,076 --> 00:28:37,756 Speaker 2: Richard Blumenthal is a Democratic US Senator from Connecticut who 425 00:28:37,796 --> 00:28:40,876 Speaker 2: introduced the Safe Bet Act with New York Congressman Paul 426 00:28:40,916 --> 00:28:44,716 Speaker 2: Tonko in twenty twenty four. With everything else that's going 427 00:28:44,716 --> 00:28:47,996 Speaker 2: on in Washington right now, he's realistic about the bill's chances. 428 00:28:48,716 --> 00:28:51,916 Speaker 2: But nothing ventured, nothing gained. I like to think that's 429 00:28:51,916 --> 00:28:54,276 Speaker 2: a spirit of Against the Rules too, along. 430 00:28:53,956 --> 00:28:57,876 Speaker 4: With anybody can win, but everybody's going to lose anyway. 431 00:28:57,876 --> 00:28:59,516 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for coming along this season. 432 00:28:59,676 --> 00:29:01,116 Speaker 2: I've got to take a break here so i can 433 00:29:01,156 --> 00:29:03,836 Speaker 2: start reporting from my next book. You'll be hearing about 434 00:29:03,876 --> 00:29:05,876 Speaker 2: it soon enough, and I'll be popping back into this 435 00:29:05,956 --> 00:29:09,156 Speaker 2: feed with other announcements and projects before you know it. 436 00:29:09,196 --> 00:29:11,916 Speaker 2: So don't go away, and don't gamble your life away. 437 00:29:12,156 --> 00:29:21,836 Speaker 2: It's a hard way to make an easy living. Against 438 00:29:21,876 --> 00:29:24,396 Speaker 2: the Rules is written and hosted by me Michael Lewis 439 00:29:24,876 --> 00:29:29,396 Speaker 2: and produced by Lydia gene Kott, Catherine Gerardeau, and Ariella Markowitz. 440 00:29:30,316 --> 00:29:34,316 Speaker 2: Our editor is Julia Barton. Our engineer is Sarah Bruguier. 441 00:29:35,516 --> 00:29:38,596 Speaker 2: Against the Rules is a production of Pushkin Industries. 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