1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:02,400 Speaker 1: The guys from Ping. They've kind of showed me how 2 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:05,120 Speaker 1: much the equipment matters. I just love that I can 3 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 1: hit any shot I kind of want. 4 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 2: We're gonna be able to tell some fun stories about 5 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:10,640 Speaker 2: what goes on here to help golfers play better golf. 6 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 3: Welcome back to the Pink Proving Grounds Podcast. I'm Shane 7 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:16,319 Speaker 3: Bak and join this always by Marty Jerts and Marty. 8 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 3: We're about the nerd out on some golf stuff. I'm 9 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 3: excited for this episode of today. 10 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:22,959 Speaker 2: It's about time. We've been looking forward to having doctor 11 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 2: Eric Hendrickson, my colleague who leads our golf science efforts 12 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 2: at PING, which is Shane. I think where the good 13 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 2: stuff happens. We talk a lot about the products that 14 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 2: come to market, how we're designing it, but Eric leads 15 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,200 Speaker 2: the group and himself personally has worked on a lot 16 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 2: of the very fundamental things that go into product performance, 17 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 2: human performance, and kind of the foundation on how products 18 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 2: come to be. So welcome on the pod. 19 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: Excited to be on Eric. 20 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 3: First of all, is it weird to be called doctor? 21 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 3: Does that ever kind of throw you for a loop? 22 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 4: You know at home? It does every once in a while. 23 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 4: The kids will throw out there my doctors over here, 24 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 4: my son is referred to doctor Hendrickson. Over at our club, 25 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 4: he gets called that. Just has a bit of fun, 26 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 4: But you know, it's actually not used around here a 27 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 4: whole lot unless we're doing a podcast or something like that. 28 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:16,479 Speaker 3: So, can you take us through your journey through ping 29 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 3: before we kind of dive into what we're going to 30 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 3: talk about today. 31 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, So I've been here about fourteen years. Came in 32 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 4: as a research engineer in our innovation group, so got 33 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 4: early on work on a lot of things involving aerodynamics. 34 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 4: Had an aerospace background. I got my PhD in aerospace engineering, 35 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,399 Speaker 4: and so worked on aerodynamics, worked on some motion capture. 36 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 4: We're here in our focal lab, so worked a lot 37 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 4: of motion capture, inertial sensing, so sensing motion, worked on 38 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 4: some things tracking putter motion, did some putter fitting research, 39 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 4: and so then got into fitting. I was the head 40 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 4: of fitting science for a little bit and then came 41 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 4: over and started leading both our innovation group and our 42 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 4: testing group. And now I have kind of migrated over 43 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 4: to focusing a lot on our basic research. As Marty 44 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 4: talked about, so just kind of answering like the why 45 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 4: questions how things work, and feed insights into our design 46 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 4: team and our innovation team. We really feel that like 47 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 4: our best innovations and the technologies that help people play 48 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 4: better emanate out of a better understanding. 49 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 1: Of the physics. 50 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,359 Speaker 4: And that's I mean, that was why Carston was so successful, right. 51 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 1: It was physics. 52 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 4: First and then using that to help people enjoy the 53 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 4: game more. 54 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 3: And it feels like Carston was amazing. It always wanted 55 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:32,520 Speaker 3: to answer the why, right, I mean that was basically 56 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 3: how ping was created, was answering the why to certain 57 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 3: questions that nobody really knew the answer to. 58 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's Marty I talk a lot about just that, 59 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 4: like a core value of curiosity, right. 60 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: He was always very curious. 61 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, and out of that curiosity came you know, we'll 62 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 4: go over and visit Carston's office or historian and see 63 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 4: some of the early stuff that Carston was doing. And 64 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 4: it was clearly just him being very curious about how 65 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 4: something worked and then quickly make something and go try 66 00:02:57,760 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 4: it and learn from it. 67 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. 68 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 2: Eric, tell us a little bit about air. Getting your 69 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 2: PhD in aerospace engineering. What did that look like, What 70 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 2: classes were you taking, What were some of the labs, 71 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 2: some of the experiments, some of the hands on stuff 72 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 2: like give it go, give a little background on that. 73 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, So all my graduate work was focused on in 74 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 4: space electric propulsion, so little thrusters to help orient satellites 75 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 4: up in space. I was lucky in that my graduate 76 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 4: work involved a bit of experiment and then a bit 77 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 4: of modeling, so kind of physically, you know, testing out ideas, 78 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 4: but then also using physics and math based models to 79 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 4: kind of predict what would happen, trying to get those 80 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 4: to match up. Because if we can have models that predict, 81 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 4: we can then innovate and make improvements. And so got 82 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 4: to design and build a high vacuum facility, so like 83 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 4: just a big tank that sucks all the air out 84 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 4: and allows you to try these thrusters, you know, here 85 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 4: in a lab, and obviously taking classes in everything from 86 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 4: you know, house satellites orbit around the Earth, to understanding 87 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 4: electromagnetics and the physics based on how do you accelerate 88 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:18,359 Speaker 4: an ionized gas, a lot of thermodynamics, and so it 89 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 4: was a lot of fun, a lot of feeling pretty 90 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,840 Speaker 4: inadequate and stupid along the way, but trying to learn 91 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 4: from that. And I think Ultimately it was I think 92 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 4: it prepared me really well for the role I have now, 93 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 4: and that I was constantly having to kind of understand 94 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 4: the fundamentals of how something worked to then be able 95 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 4: to build on it and do something novel. 96 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: Ye, and that's a. 97 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 4: Big thing in academia, right, introducing novel insights to kind 98 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 4: of build the academic community. 99 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 3: So, I mean, Eric, this is advanced stuff you're talking about. 100 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:49,039 Speaker 3: Did you ever think you'd land at a golf company. I 101 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 3: mean it just seems like, I mean you're talking about 102 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 3: science and you're talking about like satellites and things like that, 103 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,160 Speaker 3: and you're applying all that stuff to golf clubs and 104 00:04:58,480 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 3: how to make people better at golf. 105 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. 106 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 4: I think in the back of my mind, I mean, 107 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 4: you kind of go through and finish my undergrad and like, okay, 108 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 4: what you know, I'm really enjoying academia. I'm really enjoying 109 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,239 Speaker 4: kind of diving into these deep problems and doing research. 110 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 4: So went on to grad school and just some of 111 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 4: the experiences I had let me down the kind of 112 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 4: aerospace route I grew up playing tennis. So there's this 113 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 4: thing in the back of my mind. Everyone you know, 114 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 4: running an analysis or something. I'm like, man, you know, 115 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 4: when I first learned how to do finan ailment analysis, 116 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 4: which is which you use to kind of analyze structures 117 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 4: and how they've been I'm like, man, it'd be pretty 118 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:31,359 Speaker 4: cool to do this with like a tennis racket and 119 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 4: like optimize that. 120 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: But all the opportunities I had were kind of in aerospace. 121 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 4: As I was finishing up, I was looking at aerospace, 122 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 4: I was looking at opportunities in academia, and honestly, it 123 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 4: was kind of this opportunity at paying popped up and 124 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 4: I was like, that's different, but that'd be a lot 125 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 4: of fun. Grew up in the Valley, so knew of paying. 126 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 4: My grandfather was a Norwegian engineer for Hughes Aircraft, so 127 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:56,840 Speaker 4: he was always telling me about Carston and so I 128 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 4: was like, Okay, that's different, but that could be a 129 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 4: lot of fun. So I, you know, it's men in 130 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 4: my resume, and fortunately got an interview and and here 131 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 4: I am so a bit of a you know, detour 132 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 4: from what I thought I would be doing. But now 133 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 4: fourteen years later, I'm like, man, this is this is. 134 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: Like Bield ready to be golfer. 135 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 4: Now, yeah, I definitely have approved a lot along the way. 136 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 4: I got to work alongside Marty and so it's it's 137 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 4: kind of fun too. 138 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: Osmosis makes you better. 139 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 2: But Jane, listen to this. So Eric, when you first started, 140 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 2: tell tell the listeners about your handicap, when you first 141 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 2: started at ping and where you are at today. 142 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. 143 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 4: So when I when I first started, I think that 144 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 4: they have you fill out a little like you know 145 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 4: sheet and I have. 146 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 1: I had some I had some ping. 147 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:43,479 Speaker 4: I to berrillium copper irons when I started, uh and 148 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 4: you know, some hand me down driver and kind of 149 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 4: a hodgepodge bag. 150 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:49,599 Speaker 1: And I was I think of. 151 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 4: Thirteen when I wrote down my handicap, and maybe I 152 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 4: was being a little you know, generous with my handicap 153 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:58,039 Speaker 4: because I didn't want to. Marty saw me with some 154 00:06:58,080 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 4: of my early player tests. 155 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 1: You don't know, right, like twenty two downs or something 156 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 1: like that. 157 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 4: But yeah, I mean being around the game, being around 158 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 4: some really good players, having the opportunity to test equipment. 159 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 4: I'm now right around scratch play some of the amateur 160 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 4: events around when I can, and when my family let's 161 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 4: me peel away for those. But but yeah, I mean 162 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 4: I love playing the game now and I'm not quite 163 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 4: at your guys's level, but I go and have a 164 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 4: good time. 165 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 2: Eric, going back to I always think about one practical 166 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 2: example from my time in school was mechanical engineering lab. 167 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 2: We went and rode a mountain bike that had gyros 168 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 2: accelerometers GPS on it, brought it back in download the data. 169 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 2: We're playing around with the data, and that kind of 170 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 2: planted the seed for iping, the iping idea. Yeah, you know, 171 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 2: just you know, knowing how those memes and inertial sensors 172 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 2: and all that stuff worked enough, you obviously brought that 173 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 2: to market. I think Shane Eric's group, you know, makes 174 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 2: it very easy on the engineers because we can have 175 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 2: the idea in his him and his team can help 176 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 2: explain how it works or get down to the fundamentals. 177 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 2: Can you think of an example from something in the 178 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 2: academic world, graduate or undergraduate is kind of fed an 179 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 2: idea or a solution or process. 180 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 1: From my own experience. 181 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 4: Yea, from your own experience, I think, you know, I 182 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 4: mean iping is a great example, and that you know, 183 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 4: inertial sensing and trying to you know, I learned a 184 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 4: lot about using inertial sensors on spacecraft and how they 185 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 4: use those to determine where they're pointed, where they are 186 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 4: in space, and and so you know that fed a 187 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 4: lot of when you came up are like, hey, like 188 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 4: these new devices that Apple is coming out with, I 189 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 4: know they have all these sensors in them. Do you 190 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 4: think we could use it? And it was it's a 191 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 4: great example of saying, Okay, here's a technology and here's 192 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 4: a problem. We're at the same time doing a bunch 193 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 4: of putter fitting research. Yeah, and so it was this 194 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 4: great marrying of a technology and a solution to leverage 195 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 4: this insight we were getting working with our tour players 196 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 4: and working with other players, trying to elevate our fitting 197 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 4: philosophies with partners and so I mean, for me, that's 198 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 4: a great example of one. 199 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: And then getting into the motion capture stuff as well. 200 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: It's all about. 201 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 4: Determining where something is in space, three D space, inersal space. 202 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 4: And then that really helped me as we brought in 203 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 4: one of my first projects is trying to get us 204 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 4: up and running with motion capture and using that to 205 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 4: gain insights. I think for me that was maybe the 206 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 4: easiest one I could think of right now of kind 207 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 4: of marrying what I learned in school and through my 208 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 4: experience there, and then you know, leveraging it to do 209 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 4: research here. 210 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 3: When did you see motion capture kind of take off 211 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 3: in golf? Because obviously we're seeing, you know, not just 212 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 3: the interest in every day golfers, but the pro golfers. 213 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 3: I mean, you guys got a big player coming through 214 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 3: later today that's interested in it. I mean, I know, 215 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 3: you've had major winners that aren't even peeing, players that 216 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 3: have come through at times that are interested in just 217 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 3: seeing what the technology is about. When did it become 218 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 3: a thing in golf? 219 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:55,719 Speaker 4: You know, I think it's interesting to look at the 220 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 4: different technologies along the way that have been used to 221 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 4: you know, a the golf swing and the flight of 222 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 4: the ball. I think two thousand and eight it was 223 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 4: probably when like TrackMan and these are the launch mars 224 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 4: became a lot more accessible in common and there you're 225 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 4: kind of like, Okay, great, we're doing a great job 226 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 4: measuring what the ball's doing. 227 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 1: And then as engineers. 228 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 4: Were like trying to then infer from what the ball did, 229 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 4: what the club did, how it was delivered. And then 230 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 4: last mars got a little bit better about measuring the 231 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 4: club and impact and its orientation. But there was some 232 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 4: early I think in golf, some early systems probably pre 233 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,959 Speaker 4: twenty ten they were doing some motion capture. But then 234 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 4: I think post twenty ten is when you really saw 235 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 4: you know, some of these systems like gears. Our first 236 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 4: generation of focal or early kind of motion capture system 237 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 4: was called Enzo. It was something that a company called 238 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 4: Vaikon developed with Fujikura, and I think that helped us 239 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 4: then bridge, Okay, we can now measure what the ball 240 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 4: is doing. 241 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: We need to know what the club's doing, right, and. 242 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 4: How that was oriented and impact and how it's moving 243 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,199 Speaker 4: through space, kind of working our way back from the 244 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 4: ball flight, getting more insight into the why we got 245 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 4: the ball flight we did. And the motion capture allows 246 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 4: you to do that through the full swing and then 247 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 4: start measuring what the human's doing. So you got to 248 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 4: work your way back from the ball to the club, 249 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 4: you know, to the shaft and the grip and the human. 250 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 4: And so I would say probably like twenty twelve twenty 251 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 4: thirteen is when you really saw it, you know, being 252 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 4: used in fittings and research a bit more heavily. 253 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 2: But yeah, Eric tell us a little bit. We're sitting 254 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 2: in the launch pad here at the proving grounds, and 255 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 2: we're in the where with the Focal cameras, which is 256 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 2: our new, latest and greatest three D motion capture system. 257 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 2: Tell tell the listener a little bit about focal, how 258 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 2: it works, you know, specs on the cameras, how many 259 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 2: there are, and then we'll get into how we use it. 260 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:52,079 Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely, so you can see maybe you can see 261 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 4: Alli behind me. So we have eight of these optical 262 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 4: cameras that are tracking small markers on our club. 263 00:11:58,720 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 1: So it's the same technology. 264 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 4: See when they develop motion pictures and you have the 265 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 4: guy with like looks like ping pong balls all over them, right, 266 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 4: So same technology, and we're leveraging that to measure what 267 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 4: the club's doing, how it's bending, accelerating, how it's oriented. 268 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 4: Through the golf swing, we operated about eight hundred frames 269 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 4: per second, so every second we're getting eight hundred data points. 270 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:20,679 Speaker 4: So through a swing, you're getting over a thousand different 271 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 4: snapshots of how that club's oriented, how it's accelerating, and 272 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 4: that helps us understand what the player does, helps us 273 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 4: do some schaft research, club head research. And then we 274 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 4: have two kind of cameras that help us find where 275 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 4: the ball is because that helps us go, Okay, here's 276 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 4: the club. We now know where the ball is, and 277 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 4: we can if we don't get a snap shot right 278 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 4: at that point of impact, we can then infer because 279 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 4: we know where the ball is, called extrapolations, some mathematical 280 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 4: method to kind of move forward and predict where that 281 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:53,199 Speaker 4: head was right at the point it was kissing the ball. 282 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 4: And so again we've been leveraging this. It's about twenty 283 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 4: eleven and we've gained I mean, we have a huge 284 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 4: database of swings. We use that to run optimizations, We 285 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:07,959 Speaker 4: use that to mine out insights to build our fitting 286 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 4: you know, algorithms with like copilot and our shaft fitting 287 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:16,599 Speaker 4: algorithms that are in there, and so huge enabling technology 288 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 4: for us to kind of complete the full picture and 289 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 4: marry that with the ball flight we see in Marty. 290 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: A good episode for the podcast. 291 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 3: If you don't watch it on YouTube, this is a 292 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 3: good episode to jump on the YouTube and watch it 293 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 3: on the back end because we're going to throw in 294 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 3: some images and some of the stuff that we're talking 295 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 3: about right now to kind of help explain what's going on. 296 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely part of part of my brain sometimes hurts 297 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 2: when I think about how the club is moving in 298 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 2: three D space, and it's three D space, and then 299 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 2: it's transient, it's moving over time. Eric, I think one 300 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 2: of the fun things about our three D system is 301 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 2: that we've built the infrastructure to run tests with a 302 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 2: lot of players. Like give a little comparison of a 303 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 2: traditional motion capture system used in athletics other sports versus 304 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 2: how we use it here at the proving grounds. 305 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. 306 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 4: So, I mean my first exposure of motion capture was 307 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 4: my lab was right next to a motion capture lab 308 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 4: where they were developing prosthetics. And so they'd have somebody 309 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 4: come in and maybe run on a treadmill and then 310 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 4: you know, take some you know, they'd be marked up, 311 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 4: they'd record some data, and then they'd spend the next 312 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 4: day or two like trying to build the skeleton and 313 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 4: map out the measurements that they wanted. And it was, 314 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 4: you know, pretty cumbersome to go from the actual measurement 315 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 4: of the data to then an insight. And so we've 316 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 4: been able to develop a lot of pipelines and processing 317 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 4: where we can, you know, in a day, let's say 318 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 4: we're testing two different shafts we don't know how you know, 319 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 4: players react and how they behave with different players. Let's 320 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 4: say we want twenty players. We can get twenty players 321 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 4: through here hitting both those shafts, say ten times, and 322 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 4: do that in a day and a half, and then 323 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 4: by the end of that second day hit generate report 324 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 4: and we have a full report like giving us the 325 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 4: stats and the com garrisons of those two different shafts, 326 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 4: and it's all databased, so we can go reference that 327 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 4: like ten years later, right, and and and start to 328 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 4: build insights over time, and those ultimately kind of compound 329 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 4: right over time as we build more and more information 330 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 4: and store that in that database. 331 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit about because I think a 332 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 2: lot of golfers out there are like, oh, they might 333 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 2: see shafts being tested on a robot. I think that's 334 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 2: a great way to test it, right, Tell the listener 335 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 2: about why we do most of our shaft testing here 336 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 2: in focal and not necessarily on ping man we use. 337 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 2: We use that generally for different reasons, different different test designs. 338 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, so we have a bunch of different tools we use. 339 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 4: Each has their strengths and their weaknesses. One of the 340 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 4: really interesting things with shafts is uh, players behave differently 341 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 4: depending on what they feel. It's this big feedback loop 342 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 4: with the player, right, the brain's experiencing things. There's tactile sensations, 343 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 4: you know, they experience reaction forces as that shaft bends differently. 344 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 4: Ping Man doesn't care, right, ping Man's program to swing 345 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 4: the same way every time, whereas with the human you 346 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 4: know that's not the case. And you and I could 347 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 4: do the same shaft tests and have two very different 348 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 4: responses or outcomes between those two shafts because we respond differently. 349 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 4: And that's where the fun comes in and where this 350 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 4: is really important, because we need to capture that, and. 351 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: We actually have so important. 352 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 4: We have two different We have a system here and 353 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 4: we have a system over at our performance research center 354 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 4: in the UK that's also being used to do a 355 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 4: lot of that human club interaction research. Doctor John Shepherd's 356 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 4: leading that group over there really trying to answer a 357 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 4: lot of similar questions that we are here because it's 358 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 4: just such an important interaction. 359 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: Between the club and the player. 360 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 3: Eric, I mean, ping Man, I'm assuming is great for 361 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 3: data when you need that, but you're building golf clubs 362 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 3: for humans. I mean sense when you want a human 363 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 3: to come in here and swing it, because again, the 364 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 3: robot can just doesn't. Like you said, the robot doesn't care. 365 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:06,360 Speaker 3: The golfer does. 366 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,959 Speaker 4: Exactly exactly, and you can't. He's not robot's not going 367 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 4: to tell you how it felt coming down, right. 368 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:13,400 Speaker 1: So there's another big piece of it. 369 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 4: Was like, you know, hey, you know, this is what 370 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 4: I'm experiencing as I swing these two different chafts or 371 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 4: even different clubheads. 372 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:21,640 Speaker 1: And Eric. 373 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:23,439 Speaker 2: One of the funnest meetings I know, Shane and I 374 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 2: have talked about in the podcast that I enjoy coming 375 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 2: to every week or every two weeks is our Golf 376 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 2: Science meeting. And this is our meeting. We've been doing 377 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 2: this for a long time, probably over ten years now. 378 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: How many people, Marty, how many people are in that meeting? 379 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 2: We probably have between eight to ten core. 380 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, and. 381 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 4: It was interesting so now that we've you know, initially 382 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 4: there's only so many people would fit into a. 383 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:47,400 Speaker 1: Room, right and have a discussion. 384 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 4: Get a bigger room, and right around COVID we started 385 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 4: doing a lot more things virtual and now it's actually 386 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 4: probably eight to ten core guys in the room that 387 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:00,439 Speaker 4: are doing most of the discussion. But then we have 388 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:03,679 Speaker 4: another twenty to thirty that are calling in to listen 389 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 4: in on the discussion, and the whole goal of that 390 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:10,160 Speaker 4: meeting is to just make everybody smarter through discussion. 391 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 2: Plant seeds, you know, for ideas, right, Yeah, Yeah, And 392 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 2: a lot of. 393 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:17,159 Speaker 4: The curiosity, right, A lot of the emanates from you know, 394 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:19,640 Speaker 4: looking at the data. A lot of players in there 395 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 4: kind of saying, well, these are my experiences. Some scientists 396 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:24,919 Speaker 4: that aren't players that are kind of going, well, it 397 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:27,680 Speaker 4: could be this, and it just it serves as a 398 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 4: great opportunity to kind of feed the curiosity and gain 399 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 4: some insight. 400 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 2: What is What are some examples Eric of some questions 401 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 2: either that came from Tour or Shane. As you know, 402 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 2: we have a lot of avid golfers in our Ensturing group, 403 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 2: So scenarios where maybe an engineer goes and plays golf 404 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 2: on the weekend or something. They come in they're like, 405 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 2: this seems weird and we don't understand why. Right, that 406 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:54,399 Speaker 2: have kind of fed through projects through your group in 407 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 2: that meeting. 408 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 4: Yeah, so I get I think if two I think 409 00:18:58,520 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 4: they both involve moisture. 410 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:02,160 Speaker 1: One of them was Tour. 411 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 4: You mentioned Tour coming in and playing in the rain 412 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 4: with the driver, and there's this sensation that like, okay, 413 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 4: you know, the ball kind of squirts a little right 414 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 4: in the rain, and that, you know, there's this sentiment 415 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 4: that like, hey, the ball's not going as far is it. 416 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 4: Do we need grooves on the driver to increase spin. 417 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 4: Is that it's kind of falling out of the air 418 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 4: and that's why it's not going as far. And so 419 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,199 Speaker 4: you would think, well, the driver face is wet, so 420 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 4: it's not going to spin as much. And we started 421 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,400 Speaker 4: doing some testing we realized, actually, it's not the spin right, 422 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:38,679 Speaker 4: it's actually like spinning a little bit more because on 423 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 4: a driver it's sliding and then grabbing it, so you 424 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:43,360 Speaker 4: get a little bit more spin. But then we come 425 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,199 Speaker 4: out here and we're like dousing balls and water and 426 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:48,439 Speaker 4: looking at the aerodynamics and realize that it's actually this 427 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,199 Speaker 4: increase in drag on the ball. There's actually a bit 428 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 4: of moisture that kind of remains in the dimples that's 429 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 4: not removed from the ball, and so it leads to 430 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 4: shorter ball flight. And so it's kind of like, well, no, 431 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 4: we don't need a rain driver with grooves, right. If anything, 432 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 4: you make sure that ball is really dry with a 433 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,360 Speaker 4: towel if you can and hold your umbrella right, hold 434 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 4: your umbrella that a lot. I mean I remember already 435 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 4: in that meeting kind of going, you know, thinking back 436 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 4: to his different experiences and different majors when it was 437 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 4: raining and going, man, oh I'm having I'm having my 438 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 4: caddy hold that umbrella right over until I pull the trigger. 439 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 2: Kind of think caddy shouldn't keep the player dry, they 440 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 2: should keep the ball the golf. 441 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 3: You got the rain gear for the rain, you can 442 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 3: handle that. 443 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 2: So that test Eric, we we we that was a 444 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:30,959 Speaker 2: good one for ping Man, right, So we we sprits 445 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,440 Speaker 2: the golf ball, hit it out there on a perfectly 446 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 2: dry day and saw this strange aerodynamic behavior. 447 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, And then we then we ended up 448 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 4: doing it with players as well to see, okay. 449 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 1: Was there some reaction to that. 450 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 4: We've also done studies over in the UK where we 451 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 4: had guys in rain gear a motion capture to kind 452 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 4: of understand, okay, is there a difference in you know, 453 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,199 Speaker 4: how a player can swing with ranger on. So we 454 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:55,159 Speaker 4: tackle that problem from a lot of different ways, but 455 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 4: ping Man's a great way to just kind of go okay, 456 00:20:57,359 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 4: we're going to measure the full ball flight, look at 457 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 4: the aerodynamics, look the spin rates, and really get to 458 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:02,920 Speaker 4: the root of what's happening. 459 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, So I think that's one good example. 460 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:09,439 Speaker 4: The other one I remember is that this is early on, uh, 461 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 4: I think you and John K went out and played 462 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 4: somewhere locally. 463 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: It was, you know, kind of this time of year. 464 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 4: A lot of moisture, right, wet rye and John K 465 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 4: was saying man like heads his foreign a couple of times, 466 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 4: and it just felt like it ballooned up on me 467 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 4: and landed short. 468 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,359 Speaker 1: What the heck's going on? Right? That's it's wet. 469 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 4: It should slide up the face and not balloon up 470 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 4: like it has a ton of spin. It should kind 471 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 4: of launch really high and fall out of the air. 472 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 4: And everybody's kind of end up going on. I don't 473 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 4: know what's going on. And it turns to like I 474 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 4: think I was sitting on the back with Paul and 475 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 4: he's like, you guys got PhDs? 476 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:48,880 Speaker 1: What does that happen? Why is this doing this? That's 477 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,120 Speaker 1: when he gets called doctor. Exactly we don't know. 478 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 4: And so but then that led us down a huge 479 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 4: path of better understanding friction, particularly. 480 00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: On low lofted clubs. 481 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 4: Doing some modeling, it led us to the surface on 482 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 4: our drivers, right, we have that rush surface on our drivers. 483 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 4: It's actually like a little rough which helps lower spin. 484 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 4: What we realized with a foreign of the moisture is 485 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 4: that it caused the situation where the ball slid and 486 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,119 Speaker 4: then still engages with the grooves, and so you end 487 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,400 Speaker 4: up with a little more spin in that dewey condition 488 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 4: with a forearn, whereas with a wedge it might just 489 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,400 Speaker 4: slide right up the face. But a forearm, because it's 490 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 4: less loft and it's a little more normal impact, you 491 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 4: actually get more spin in that dewey condition. So it's 492 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 4: just an insight that I mean, it's gonna help a 493 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 4: player because I no really know what's going on. And 494 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 4: then obviously the ball is a little wet too, so 495 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:36,640 Speaker 4: it might have a little extra drag. It plays into 496 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:40,360 Speaker 4: that other story we had, But yeah, I mean it's 497 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:45,360 Speaker 4: just again making that understanding more robust through just some curiosity. 498 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 4: But that's then paid dividends and so many different designs 499 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 4: of different products. 500 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 2: That's a great point, Shane, So I just paint the 501 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,160 Speaker 2: picture on that. We go plagolf, we hit a fore iron. 502 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 2: Something weird's happening, and that opens the door to a 503 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 2: practical solution. Rougher face on the driver get lower spin 504 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 2: without having to sacrifice moment of inertia. So now that's 505 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 2: part of our secret sauce on low spin high MI. 506 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,360 Speaker 2: And then Eric and his team kicked off a bunch 507 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,199 Speaker 2: of research on that understanding, kicked off a bunch of 508 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 2: research on spin generation with wedges, and we've worked with 509 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 2: Chris Como, Stan Utley, Derek Dominski to try to crack 510 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 2: the code on what is generating spin with different three 511 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 2: D deliverty three D deliveries and flat spots. We saw 512 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,199 Speaker 2: Victor hovelin in here with his shirt off, all marked 513 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 2: up right, trying to get to the bottom five. 514 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 3: Interesting day, Eric, who goes to whom with more questions? 515 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 3: Do you go to Marty with more questions? Do as 516 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:40,160 Speaker 3: Marty come to you with more questions? 517 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 4: That's a good question. I've gotten to him with a 518 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 4: lot of swing questions, right a. 519 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 2: Go. 520 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 4: I mean I think it's a good pairing, right, I think, 521 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 4: you know, there's a lot of as a player, and 522 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,640 Speaker 4: Marty's gosh, he's super bright engineer. He's got a lot 523 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 4: of technical experience designing clubs and what can be done 524 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 4: can't be done, and so you know, I think it's 525 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 4: probably pretty scores pretty even Eric. 526 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,399 Speaker 3: I wanted to dive into kind of innovation because you know, 527 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 3: you think about something like turbulators. Marty and I've talked 528 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 3: a lot about turbulators over these episodes of the podcast. 529 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 3: The turbulator has been on the driver. Now, I guess 530 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 3: what four or five iterations of this driver? Why why 531 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 3: do you not change something like that as you're coming 532 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 3: out with new innovation and new product. 533 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: A simple answer is it works. 534 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:32,880 Speaker 4: Okay, you know, I think you know, I'd like to say, 535 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 4: you know, ping's about innovation that lasts. You look at 536 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:37,920 Speaker 4: the different things through. 537 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 1: The years that Carson introduced. 538 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 4: And through Johnny and his tenure, came through paying and 539 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:48,719 Speaker 4: now you know currently these are things and technologies that 540 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 4: one they typically break a trade off curve. Right, So 541 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 4: turbulators came about of like, well, how do we keep 542 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,880 Speaker 4: a driver with high MI but make it aerodynamics We're 543 00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,400 Speaker 4: not sacrificing club at speed, and turbulators was an easy 544 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 4: way where it's like, well, we could put these on 545 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 4: and we don't actually have to change the overall shape 546 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:04,640 Speaker 4: of the driver too much to get an aerodynamic gain. 547 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 4: And so ultimately we're looking you know, if it's physics 548 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 4: based and it's built on that foundation, it's going to work. 549 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 4: We're going to understand how it works, so we understand 550 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 4: how maybe other things we introduce on the driver might 551 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 4: hinder it from working anymore. And we're looking to compound 552 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 4: those technologies, right, So we're looking to continue to make 553 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:28,439 Speaker 4: the driver better by leveraging each of these technologies on 554 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 4: top of each other. And so, I mean, Marty, we 555 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 4: talk a lot about kind of effective forgiveness and why, 556 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 4: and you know, moment of inertial is primarily talked about 557 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 4: in terms of mass properties, right or in the business 558 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 4: of moving mass around and making things forgiving. But then 559 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 4: there's these other technologies we've worked on yep, that helped 560 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 4: produce that forgiveness through other methods, Right. 561 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 3: Eric, Why is it that it feels like golf club 562 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 3: companies across the board kind of arrive at the same 563 00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 3: ideas around the same time. You know, I think about 564 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 3: the square driver popularity and kind of square drivers coming 565 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 3: to market in the mid to what two thousand and five, 566 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 3: two thousand and six is right now, it's ten k 567 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 3: across the board. The popularity and that idea. Why is 568 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:11,679 Speaker 3: it that it feels like everybody kind of arrives at 569 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,640 Speaker 3: these ideas at a similar times. 570 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 1: That's a good question. 571 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 4: I think part of it is we're all trying to 572 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 4: solve the same problem, okay, and so you know, if 573 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 4: you have a bunch of people trying to solve the 574 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 4: same problem, inevitably you might end up with some similar solutions. 575 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,640 Speaker 4: I think there's probably been over the years, maybe some 576 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 4: there's some situations where you've seen some very different philosophies 577 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 4: on what the problem is and what the solution is. 578 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 4: So like where should the center of gravity of the 579 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 4: driver be? And there was a season there where you had, 580 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 4: you know, one kind of sentiment that was like I 581 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 4: should be low and forward because here's the problem and 582 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 4: here the solution is to move that low and forward. 583 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,400 Speaker 4: And we were kind of always like, actually, I think 584 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,199 Speaker 4: the player's going to benefit more if we move that 585 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,639 Speaker 4: low and back. And so I think that's an instance 586 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 4: where maybe there's like some disagreement on what the solution 587 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 4: was right, And then ultimately he saw this kind of 588 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 4: migration to low forward CG drivers not maybe as prominent 589 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 4: as it was during the season maybe ten years ago. 590 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 2: That also kind of opened the door, Shane to us 591 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 2: answering the questions what are optimal launch conditions? Right, because 592 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 2: there was a time where I don't know, seventeen launch 593 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 2: and sub two thousand spin was considered well, you got 594 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,640 Speaker 2: to get there, that's the fire hose analogy. You gotta 595 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 2: shoot that thing up high. Well, because of Eric's team 596 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 2: developing good models, that was actually how we developed our 597 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 2: optimal launch and spin chart, right. That described another you know, 598 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,399 Speaker 2: I think one of the big things we try to 599 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 2: do is when you see in abnormality or something that 600 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,120 Speaker 2: doesn't feel right or an outlier, we should be able 601 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 2: to explain that with the physics. So when Cameron Champ 602 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 2: comes in, he's launching it at s and five and 603 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 2: spin it at twenty eight hundred, it doesn't sit right, 604 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 2: you know that, Hey, he should launch it higher and 605 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,680 Speaker 2: spin it less. Well, it's because he has super high 606 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 2: ball speed one ninety plus and he hits down on 607 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 2: the driver and our models actually explain that, right. I 608 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 2: think that's another kind of good example on the fitting side. Yeah, Eric, 609 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 2: we spent time with Rob Griffin, our historian looking at 610 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 2: some of Carson's prototypes, and one of them that I 611 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 2: think was fun to look at is the story and 612 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 2: Rob told the story of the bench shaft, Yeah, which 613 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 2: was kind of how the pistol grip started. Tell us 614 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 2: a little bit about some of the work you've done 615 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 2: on the pistol grip or some other stories from I 616 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 2: think your team being able to get at the root 617 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 2: of what Carson was able to discover on his own 618 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 2: through experiment back in his day. 619 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. 620 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 4: So, I mean the balnamic shaft was I don't know, 621 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 4: I had never actually like set up to this bench 622 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 4: shaft on an iron or a post and kind of 623 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 4: actually felt, you know, through the swing through you know, 624 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 4: taking a putt, like just the the sensation of where 625 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 4: that oriented the mass of the head relative to the grip. Ultimately, 626 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 4: it ended up kind of being deemed nonconforming. He designed 627 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 4: a whole set of irons, and there's this great picture 628 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 4: of all the irons up and you can see all 629 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 4: the shafts kind of bent. Uh and and it's his 630 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 4: thought was like, hey, you know, when I set this up, 631 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 4: I want if I look down the grip, I want 632 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 4: that that shaft and that grip pointed right at the ball, right, 633 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 4: And if the. 634 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 1: Shaft's going in at the heel of the club, you 635 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 1: get it the point of the ball. 636 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 4: You have to bend the top part and you know, 637 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 4: if you're looking down the end of it, So it's 638 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 4: pointed a little forward and a little toward the toe 639 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 4: to get it to aim at the ball. And he 640 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:43,479 Speaker 4: did that, and he swung it, and he's like, well, 641 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 4: that feels pretty good, right, feels very stable. And so 642 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 4: his solution when it became nonconforming, he was like, Okay, 643 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 4: I'm gonna put a little offset into the putter. So 644 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 4: the plumber's neck came out and and I'm gonna I'm 645 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 4: not gonna bend the shaft, but you know, at the time, 646 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 4: gulf part had the inform, so really, I'm gonna tilt 647 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 4: the core a little bit so I can kind of 648 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 4: get that same feeling and orient the center of mass. 649 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: Of the putter head relative to the putter grip in 650 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 1: the same way. 651 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 4: And so you kind of pick up, you know, an 652 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 4: answer putter with his altered and former grip and compare 653 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 4: that to his original balnamic shaft and you're kind of okay, 654 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 4: those those have a very similar feel, a sense of stability, 655 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 4: and so that let us down a path. I've been 656 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 4: trying a bunch of different you know, trying to understand 657 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 4: how the relationship between the center gravity of the putter 658 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 4: head and the shaft influences performance. We started testing pistol 659 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 4: grips versus straight grips and kind of arrived at okay, 660 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 4: there actually is an influence on how a player delivers 661 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 4: the head with the different grips, and so that's fed 662 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 4: into you know, our our fitting philosophies when it comes 663 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 4: to putters. And so it's a pretty cool as so 664 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 4: many meetings where you've been in them, where it's like 665 00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 4: we'll come in and we're like we're filming, pretty proud 666 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 4: of ourselves. Found this new new insight, right, and we're 667 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 4: kind of like, okay, this is pretty cool. And and 668 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 4: I wasn't around when Carson was around, but we still have, 669 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 4: you know, the busting of John A being around and 670 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 4: being really involved and he'll kind of, you know, just 671 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 4: quietly raise his hand and go, you know, Carson, you 672 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 4: tried that in like sixty five. I'm going to take 673 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 4: you over to you know, this warehouse and show you 674 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 4: some of the things that Carston did and you're kind 675 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 4: of like, oh, okay, but then I mean, ultimately you 676 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 4: start to marry these things together. And now with the tech, 677 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 4: Christ didn't have a vocal system to like answer this questions. 678 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 3: It's like when you look at the Pyramids and you're like, 679 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 3: how did they build these things? You know, back in 680 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 3: the day when they didn't have everything we have with 681 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 3: cranes and things that are available. And you think about 682 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 3: Carson's ability to answer questions without you know, rad or 683 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,719 Speaker 3: capture and ping man and things like that. I mean, 684 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 3: it's for you, I'm assuming it's got to be incredibly 685 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 3: impressive when you dive back into some of the historical 686 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 3: ideas and answers. 687 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 1: He came up it one hundred percent is and it 688 00:31:58,760 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: gives me a great deal appreciation. 689 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 4: And he was always trying to find the best we 690 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 4: have pictures of like high speed cameras back in his 691 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 4: day when he was trying to, you know, make pingman 692 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 4: and trying to understand how do you get ping man 693 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 4: to swing more like a human. And he did high 694 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 4: speed photos and everything, so he was always trying to 695 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 4: find the best way to measure and gain understanding. 696 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: Eric what's left? 697 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 3: I mean, I know that's an easy question to ask, 698 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 3: but you know, you think about obviously leaning into the 699 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 3: player testing, and then you've got focal and you feel 700 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 3: like you're starting to kind of answer some of the 701 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 3: questions that didn't exist answers didn't exist maybe fifteen twenty 702 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 3: years ago. What's the next what's the next step for you? 703 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 3: Where's the black hole and the research that you're going 704 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 3: to dive into next. 705 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 4: We always have plenty of knowledge gaps that we're looking 706 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 4: to gain understanding. I think still to me, the biggest 707 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 4: mystery is how humans behave Like I say, they're really messy, 708 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 4: and they are when it comes to like understanding how 709 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 4: they react two different shafts. You know, you can change 710 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 4: the center of mass in the head, you know, like 711 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 4: it looks the same like and all of a sudden, 712 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 4: it's like their impact location shifts because you've they just 713 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 4: feel it, and trying to predict and understand that more 714 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 4: understand how what they feel influences performance, Like you know, 715 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 4: it's can we if something sounds a little different, did 716 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 4: they swing it faster? You're kind of like there's no 717 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 4: physics reason, like from like the club design that it 718 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 4: should go any faster because it sounds different. But if 719 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 4: that player's experience is influence influences that, I think that's 720 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 4: a huge area of study for us that I want 721 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 4: to understand better personally. I don't know a lot of 722 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 4: our engineers do. And honestly, there's no shortage of questions 723 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 4: and pain of all of us being you know, a 724 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 4: lot of us being players, pain of the game, and 725 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 4: curiosity of like, how how can we make this better? 726 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 4: And so yeah, it take a whole nother podcast to 727 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 4: explain all my Marty. 728 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 3: As you're as you're playing golf and questions come up, 729 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 3: I mean you think about the four iron question that 730 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 3: popped up when you're playing. Are you writing these down? 731 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 3: Are they just stuck in your brain? Are you able 732 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 3: to kind of push them out as you're enjoying around 733 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 3: a golf or these things that once something pops up 734 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 3: in your head, is it just is it unavoidable? 735 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 2: They burn into my brain and you don't have to 736 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,239 Speaker 2: write an example. I'll give you an example. I went 737 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,879 Speaker 2: to I went to second Stage a Q school because 738 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,440 Speaker 2: I had qualified got exemption to second stage accuschool. I 739 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 2: went and played at Bear Creek Mariata, California, and it 740 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,360 Speaker 2: was it was in the fall, rained a bunch bermuda 741 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 2: and there's mudd mudballs all over the place. And this 742 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 2: was a Pete No, it was a Nicholas course, but 743 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,439 Speaker 2: in his Nicholas small greens, hazards everywhere. And I would 744 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,319 Speaker 2: have mudball from one eighty and just guessing what this 745 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 2: thing is going to do. And I came back, I missed, 746 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:40,799 Speaker 2: didn't make it through, and I came back, I'm like, 747 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 2: we need to do an experiment on mudballs. So we 748 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 2: did it with the with Eric's help and our golf 749 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 2: science group. So I think it's. 750 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 1: Would you would you discover by the way, would you 751 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 1: discover from talk about mess there is much mudball experience, 752 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 1: little mudball rules. 753 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 2: We actually have a blog article on our on our 754 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 2: website and then we put put a little uh kind 755 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 2: of rule sheet on what to do with mud. Well. 756 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,279 Speaker 3: I feel like when you're watching a golf broadcast, it's 757 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:07,880 Speaker 3: like MUDs on the left, the ball is gonna go right. 758 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 3: MUD's on the right, it's gonna go left. Like what 759 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 3: did you guys figure out when you actually tested that 760 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 3: air well? 761 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 4: And that's that's actually so that's accurate and right and 762 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 4: and so, and that's something that I think at the 763 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:20,799 Speaker 4: time it wasn't as prominent like we. 764 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:22,360 Speaker 1: Was. 765 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 4: The first thing you do anytime you have a question 766 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 4: is go, well, do somebody already answer it? 767 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:25,839 Speaker 1: Right? 768 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:27,800 Speaker 4: Don't want to go reinvent the wheel. And we couldn't 769 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 4: find no research on it. There was no research on it, right, Uh. 770 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,319 Speaker 4: And so I was like, well, let's go do it then. Yeah, 771 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 4: and so you know that's what we did. And we 772 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 4: got Phoenix's finest mud. And you know it's like. 773 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: Phoenix's finest mud might just be clay, but. 774 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, well you know we had a good, important mud. 775 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 4: One of our interns was going around Phoenix trying to 776 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:50,279 Speaker 4: find you know. 777 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 2: We'll drop some high speed video of the impacts into 778 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 2: the post. 779 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 3: Was like, if you hit a four iron on a 780 00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:58,959 Speaker 3: mudball versus an eight iron, was there a big difference there? 781 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 2: So I think with mud, it's not just that it's 782 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,160 Speaker 2: on the right it's gonna go left. It's on the left, 783 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:06,480 Speaker 2: it's gonna go right. It also goes shorter. Okay, it 784 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 2: has more variants. So you need to as a golfer, 785 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 2: you need to aim way more conservatively right and then 786 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,600 Speaker 2: the impact on distance is huge. That's the biggest piece. 787 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:19,840 Speaker 2: If you have mud on the ball, and then it 788 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 2: depends on where it is top, bottom, front, back. If 789 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,239 Speaker 2: it's between the club, gonna get in between the club 790 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 2: and the face, you lose massive amount of ball speed 791 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 2: goes lower, is more variable, so you gotta have kind 792 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,359 Speaker 2: of rules on exactly where it is. But we've used it. 793 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 2: We've used that research for more than just playing. It's 794 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,960 Speaker 2: also informed some of our ball flight, you know, understanding 795 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:40,759 Speaker 2: of aerodynamics. 796 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 3: Last mudball question for you, Marty, you've got one fifty, 797 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,719 Speaker 3: which is I'm assuming kind of a nine iron for you, 798 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 3: you've got a mudball or you hit an eight. 799 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 2: Yes, depending on where the trouble is, I would hit 800 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 2: an eight. Hit it lower, hit it a little bit 801 00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 2: softer would be generally big. 802 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:00,319 Speaker 1: Keep it out of the air as much as possible. 803 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, minimize the flight time and just give yourself or 804 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 2: margin for air. Yeah, little little gripped down. Yeah, but 805 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:09,560 Speaker 2: yet you just have to be way more conservative on 806 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:11,879 Speaker 2: your on your aiming strategy if the whole allows for it. 807 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 3: Eric Eric jumped into a mudball conversation he was not 808 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:16,360 Speaker 3: ready for. I don't know, I don't know if you 809 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,319 Speaker 3: were prepared for the mudball com Another day of ping, 810 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,319 Speaker 3: Another day of ping. Well, Eric, we really appreciate the time. 811 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,799 Speaker 3: Great inside, I mean, the focal has been amazing to 812 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:27,759 Speaker 3: just kind of watch, and obviously it's been amazing for 813 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:29,799 Speaker 3: you guys. So thanks for the time, great chat and 814 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 3: we'll have you on soon. 815 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 1: I had a ton of fun. Thanks. This is the 816 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 1: Ping proven Grounds podcast.