1 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 1: There is an award winning book I want to tell 2 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: you all about Down the Hill, my descent into the 3 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 1: Double Murder in Delphi Susan Hendrix, and the forward is 4 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: by Kelsey Jerman, the sister of one of the victims. 5 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: I'm sure y'all know, and normally I will start this 6 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: podcast with an antidote, but I'm not going to do 7 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 1: that today. I'm going to start with something that I 8 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: wrote for this book. I've watched my friend report advocate 9 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: and support Abby and Libby's families with respect and dignity. 10 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: The Double Murder in Delphi stopped being a story for 11 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: Susan Hendrix from the first visit with Libby's family in 12 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: their home in the South. We know something incredible happens 13 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: once you sit with someone their kitchen table. From that 14 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: tiny table to this book, Susan brings the family center 15 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: stage in this victim centered, family oriented, loving story of Ohannah. 16 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: Susan is no longer a reporter. She is family. Cheryl 17 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:24,479 Speaker 1: Matt McCollum, crime scene investigator and host of Zone seven. Y'all, 18 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:28,680 Speaker 1: we are so fortunate tonight to have Susan Hendrix with 19 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: us to talk not just about her book, but about 20 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:35,479 Speaker 1: anything she wants to. She is anchored CNN and HLN. 21 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: You know her from the Weekend Express. You know we're 22 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: from crime con. But I'm going to tell you something 23 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 1: from a class at Arizona State. When she heard Walter Cronkite, 24 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: she changed her life. She knew in that moment listening 25 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: to that legend that she wanted to cover the news. 26 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: But what she has done so beautifully in that career 27 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: is she has never lost who she is, which is 28 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: naturally a loving and caring person. She's a daughter, she's 29 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: a sister, she's a wife, she's a mother, she's a 30 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: good friend and fortunately for me, part of mi z 31 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:15,639 Speaker 1: Own seven. 32 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 2: Cheryl, it's an honor to be on Zone seven. But 33 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 2: it's also an honor. And I'm so grateful that you 34 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 2: wrote that. I was tearing up as you read it 35 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:27,959 Speaker 2: again because when you first sent it over, I read 36 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 2: that out loud to my sister and my voice was cracking. 37 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 2: It just means so much because you're right in that kitchen, 38 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 2: in Libby's kitchen is where it changed for me, and 39 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 2: the way you were able to capture that, and how 40 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,399 Speaker 2: poignant it was, because I know how close you are 41 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 2: to this story and to Kelsey as well. So it 42 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 2: meant so much and it still does. 43 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:49,639 Speaker 1: Well. You know, I don't think you can hang out 44 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: with her for five minutes without just going I adore 45 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 1: this kid, and then you know, to know what she 46 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 1: went through. And you have a sister, and I have 47 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: four sisters, and we we did that sort of thing. 48 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: We all had that place that was special to us, 49 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: that was maybe through the woods and near a creek 50 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 1: bed or a river. And I know you and your 51 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 1: sister had a place that y'all went with a good 52 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: friend of y'all's in the neighborhood. And you should have 53 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 1: been able to do that. You should be able to 54 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: go through the woods and find your little special place 55 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: and you know, gossip and tell secrets and have some 56 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: fun and talk about boys or whatever you're doing without 57 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: thinking somebody's going to come up to two little kids. 58 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: I mean, you're talking about thirteen and fourteen. They're little 59 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: kids and murder them. 60 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, the best days really when you think back on 61 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 2: your teenage years, and you're right. My sister and I 62 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 2: had a place. We called it the brook. Let's go 63 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 2: down the Brook. It was where we went daily and 64 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 2: there was two pipes down there, sewer pipes. One was high, 65 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 2: one was low. I mean, it was our routine. I 66 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 2: envision it right now in my mind about how much fun, 67 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 2: how freeing it was, and the innocence of that town 68 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 2: of Delli just ripped apart on that day on February thirteenth, 69 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 2: when their bodies were discovered the next day, but just 70 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 2: it showed how close the town was coming together. I 71 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 2: remember Becky Libby's grandmother telling me, you know, Susan, even 72 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 2: though this search was officially called off, as you know, 73 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 2: and Sheriff tob Lesnibie said, look, it was just too dangerous, 74 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 2: too dark down there, officially called off, but that didn't 75 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 2: stop the town of Delphi. And Becky said, there was 76 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 2: kind of a dim glow form all the flashlights looking 77 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 2: for Abby and Libby. That to me signifies what type 78 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 2: of town that is, and how no matter what, even 79 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 2: with the devastation the next day of finding the girl's 80 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 2: bodies and through I don't know, close to six years 81 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 2: before someone was in custody, that town, to me stuck 82 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 2: together and really showed their strength. 83 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:54,479 Speaker 1: Agreed, And this whole thing was so unimaginable because I 84 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: went to Burdue for a semester. It was an internship 85 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: with the FBI, and so I felt like I kind 86 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: of knew Indianapolis, and I kind of knew the general area, 87 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: but I had never heard of Delphi, never heard of 88 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: it the first time I went. I had told Kelsey 89 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 1: and some of the other folks, don't tell me anything. 90 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: Let me see if I can find the bridge. Now, 91 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: in complete transparency, I am not Sakaguilla. Okay, if my 92 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 1: husband says to me, hey, go to the west side 93 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: of the house, I don't know where that is. 94 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 2: Wait, finally I'm meeting someone that is the exact same 95 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 2: way I am. An example, in high school, a friend 96 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 2: Tom of my sisters and I in high school, he 97 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 2: would be driving, let's say, and this was an ongoing joke. Okay, 98 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 2: ask Susie what they call me left or right? I'd 99 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 2: say right, Okay, we're going left because my sense of 100 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 2: direction was zero zero. 101 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, me too. And so I even tell people in 102 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 1: my profession, don't tell me you're northeast of Walmart. Tell 103 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 1: me exactly where you are, because otherwise I'm gonna drive 104 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 1: around for second looking for you. So I say that 105 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: only because it's not about direction. But normally you can 106 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 1: get into any town I can, and you can find 107 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 1: the landmarks. There's gonna be signage. You're gonna see, Oh, 108 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: there's the courthouse, there's a fire station, there's a police department, 109 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: there's a hospital. Got it. But if they've got something 110 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 1: that they're proud of, they don't hide it. Right when 111 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: I got there, I saw nothing. I didn't see anything 112 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: that was pointing me in this direction. There wasn't like this, 113 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: you know, great sign with an era going hey, you 114 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 1: got to go here to hike to this fabulous bridge. 115 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 1: So they finally led me to where you would go 116 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,919 Speaker 1: to park and you know the bridge that is like 117 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: the free pedestrian Yeah, like the pedestrian bridge, But it 118 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:50,600 Speaker 1: says on there the high bridge. So I'm thinking that, 119 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: ain't it because that's over a road. But again you 120 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 1: wouldn't know. Well, we finally park and we walk, and 121 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: we walk and we walk. I was amazed. It did 122 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: not look like I thought it was going to look, Susan. 123 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: I didn't know there were houses to the left that 124 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: you could see from the path. I didn't know the 125 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: walkway was that far. And then when you get to 126 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: this bridge, it almost looks like it's floating, and it's 127 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: so high, and of course my sister Charlene is with me, 128 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 1: and of course she wants to get on the bridge. 129 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: And to me, it looks pretty rickety. I mean there's 130 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: boards missing, there's boards that have places that you can 131 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 1: see that are rotted, and I'm like, I don't think 132 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: that looks like something I want to participate in. Particularly, 133 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: which again, to me, the man on the bridge, bridge 134 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: guy as they call him, he looked so comfortable, he 135 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: had his hands in his pockets. He's way over to 136 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: one side to me, and I said this on Nancy 137 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: Grace's show and every show I was on, it looks 138 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: to me like he was turning back into the middle 139 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: of that bridge, which to me, that man he turned around, 140 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: so he passed them and was coming back in my opinion, 141 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: But what was your opinion? When you first got to 142 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: the bridge. 143 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 2: It changed everything for me, And you're absolutely right. I 144 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 2: was with two CNN photojournalists and Kelsey came with us, 145 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 2: and I remember speaking of the kitchen, Libby's kitchen. Mike 146 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 2: was there concerned because that is the place where Kelsey 147 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 2: dropped off Abby and Libby, and to think about how 148 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 2: difficult it was for her. This was in twenty nineteen, 149 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 2: in February, and he said Torry took her aside and 150 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 2: I heard him say are you okay to go down 151 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 2: there with them? And she said yeah, I'll be okay. 152 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:41,559 Speaker 2: And we had done the interviews and everyone gathers all 153 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 2: of our stuff and we parked nearby, and the photographer 154 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 2: said to me, Lionel is one of them. He said, well, 155 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 2: we have a new policy at CNN. We're not allowed 156 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:52,959 Speaker 2: to get arrested down here for trespassing because there was 157 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 2: a big sign. They didn't want any look he lose 158 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:56,719 Speaker 2: down there. So I said, well, I'm going to head 159 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 2: off myself. I'm going to start walking towards the bridge 160 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 2: because we were on the path at this particular time. 161 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 2: And I heard my mom's voice in my ear saying 162 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:08,959 Speaker 2: don't go anywhere alone. And she's always been the worrier. 163 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 2: And I heard her voice though, because it started to 164 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 2: feel ominous because I knew what happened down there in 165 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 2: twenty nineteen. But nothing prepares you when you come up 166 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 2: on it. And Cheryl's you're absolutely right, Cheryl, that it 167 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 2: feels like it's floating. Not only is my sense of 168 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 2: direction bad, but I'm scared of heights as well, and 169 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 2: just seeing it, I pictured it just like you did, 170 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 2: to be completely different because Richard Allen. Now what we 171 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,319 Speaker 2: think is Richard Allen on the bridge according to him 172 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 2: being in custody, is it seemed like a stroll, like 173 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 2: an everyday stroll. It wasn't going to be that high 174 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 2: or that decrepit. So but then you think back to 175 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 2: that age thirteen and fourteen, you really don't have any fear. 176 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 2: And I know that Libby had been down there several 177 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 2: times and it was easy to her to me that said, 178 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 2: And of course, Cheryl, you know it's said to the investigators, 179 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 2: it's said to the FBI, this guy's from here. And 180 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 2: it doesn't take much. All you have to do is 181 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 2: kind of figure out where is this because it's not 182 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 2: right there. It takes a while to get to and 183 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:16,959 Speaker 2: once you see it, the massiveness of this, you realize, Okay, 184 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 2: he knew this area, he knew how to get here, 185 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 2: and he knew how to walk that bridge. 186 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: And not only was he from there, he was right 187 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: from there. He wasn't thirty miles away, he wasn't one 188 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: hundred miles away. He wasn't two miles away, because again, 189 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: most perpetrators do not make the crime more difficult. Well, 190 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: this person broad daylight, other people were around. He's going 191 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 1: to go on a bridge that is rickety and extremely high, 192 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: no rails and take them where. I mean that to 193 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: me tells me that this was pre planned, that he 194 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: knew where he was going to be taken them. And 195 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: plus he picked two people at a time, not one. 196 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 2: And it does make you wonder. And I remember Paul 197 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 2: Holds mentioning this to me, saying, once he saw it 198 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 2: exactly what we were saying, he understood so much more 199 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,680 Speaker 2: once he was able to see it and walk down 200 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 2: the hill. He said he had questions before going to 201 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 2: the bridge, wondering why go down in that particular area. 202 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 2: Then he realized once he saw everything, and saying, okay, 203 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 2: that bridge was the weapon. This man decided he was 204 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:32,719 Speaker 2: going to trap someone or I don't know what this 205 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 2: person had in mind. Was it going to be one, 206 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 2: was it going to be two? Did he see the 207 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 2: three and decide that was too many and then see 208 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 2: Abby and Libby? Was it a crime of opportunity? I 209 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 2: believe yes, But I believe like you said, it was 210 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 2: planned in his head, not necessarily Abby and Libby, but 211 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 2: the plan to do something like that, and that was 212 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 2: the perfect place in his mind. 213 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:55,959 Speaker 1: And I think he knew exactly where he was going 214 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:59,079 Speaker 1: to take him and everything. And you know, again, as 215 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:05,719 Speaker 1: a criminologist, you always think what was their switch? When 216 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: did that flip? And we had video and we had audio. 217 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: Did that not blow your mind when you first saw 218 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: him and then heard his voice? 219 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 2: Oh, there's nothing like this. I think that's why it 220 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 2: gained so much traction, if you will, because there's no 221 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 2: rhyme or reason at times on what particular stories stand out, 222 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 2: what someone is drawn to and why. But with this 223 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,199 Speaker 2: knowing at first a CNN we called it the snapchat 224 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 2: murder because that's what they were calling it because of 225 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 2: the snapchat picture of Abby that Libby I don't know 226 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 2: the terminology snapped it and put out there in the bridge, 227 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 2: So that's what it was called early on at CNN. 228 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 2: But being down there was just so different to see 229 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 2: and I was wondering, Okay, now that someone is in custody, 230 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 2: I thought, looking back at that time, forty four years 231 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 2: old at the time. Now, I believe Richard Allen's fifty 232 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 2: one innocent til proven guilty. But could someone go their 233 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 2: whole lives Cheryl and not do anything if he doesn't 234 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 2: no criminal background that we know of, Could someone just 235 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 2: make that decision? And I remember being asked myself, is 236 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 2: this random? I think not necessarily random? Because he knew 237 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 2: that area, he knew that place, and he knew where 238 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 2: he was going to take his victims. 239 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 1: I agree. And he didn't take them ten feet. I 240 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: mean he walked them a minute. And if you listen 241 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:41,199 Speaker 1: to the boys, it's calm down the hill. I mean, 242 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: he's already made the decision. It's done. At that point, 243 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 1: there's no turning back. And you know, I tell this often. 244 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:55,199 Speaker 1: When I was little, I thought monsters were just enraged 245 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: and loud and were out of control. And it shocked 246 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: me as I got older and started to study that. No, 247 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 1: they're often very calm and quiet, and I thought, how 248 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 1: can monsters be quiet? 249 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 2: But they are, and they don't look the way you 250 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 2: expect someone capable of doing this to look. Absolutely don't 251 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 2: in our heads that yep, they're going to look a 252 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 2: particular way. Baby. It's like Charles Manson type once he 253 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 2: was in prison. 254 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 1: They don't. 255 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 2: They can be your neighbor, as we saw with BTK. 256 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 2: They could be someone who's in the community. They can 257 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 2: be someone who has a family who would never imagine 258 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 2: that this would happen. And back to Libby hitting that 259 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 2: record button, her grandfather might said to me, you know, Susan, 260 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 2: I think that she if she came home that day, 261 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 2: she was going to say, Grandpa, look at this creepy 262 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 2: guy in the bridge. And think about the wherewithal that 263 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 2: Libby had knowing something was off. We all have that 264 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 2: gut feeling and that's what's so horrifying and heartbreaking to 265 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 2: think about what those girls went through, the fear they 266 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 2: knew something was off, being able to hit record. And 267 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 2: at that April press conference, Cheryl when the change of 268 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 2: direction the new sketch, when I heard guys that sounded, 269 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 2: I say that it sounded like someone to me who 270 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 2: had kids might be. I thought at the time, maybe 271 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 2: it's a teacher, guys friendly. It wasn't an angry voice 272 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 2: that you would expect to hear. 273 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: Things that stuck out for me, of course, was the calm, 274 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: the tone, the accent. But then the real hero in 275 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: this thing is Libby. She gave law enforcement a video 276 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: and audio and the exact time and the exact place, 277 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: and that to me is such a money tree. And 278 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: then to your point, we go almost seven years and 279 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: nobody in that town recognized him. Nobody recognized that voice. 280 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: That's what blew my mind, because even when I talked 281 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: to the superintendent through the years, I always told him 282 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: he's right there, unless he's just living in a basement 283 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: and he doesn't come out much and he's kind of 284 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: a recluse and people don't know it. Then when we 285 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: find out he's at CVS. 286 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 2: I believe that Superintendent Dug Harter looking back on kind 287 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 2: of through the years and the amount of interviews he's given, 288 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 2: and just so supportive of those working on this case, 289 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 2: telling me look susan people put off retirement. He never 290 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 2: took credit for anything. He said, This isn't me. I'm 291 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 2: proud to be here. These investigators working night and day, 292 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 2: and the FBI coming there, they all wanted to solve this. 293 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 2: And from the outside, if you've never been to Delphine, 294 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 2: if you don't see the bridge and it's not clear, 295 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 2: you think, why can't they get the guy right? Well, 296 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 2: it was from far away the video that Libby did 297 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 2: take so his face, as you may have seen, is 298 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 2: blurry and pixelated almost. And you look at the name 299 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 2: TV jacket what appears to be navy, and a lot 300 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 2: of people in Delphi have the jacket. It looks like 301 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 2: a lot of men in Delphi. It truly does. 302 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 1: Okay, I was going to ask you that next, because 303 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: we go to the bridge. After we're done, we go 304 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: to a local diner. Everybody looked like him. 305 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:20,400 Speaker 2: Yes, on main Street was it? Do you remember? 306 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 1: Right on Main Street? And everybody had like those boots 307 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:28,239 Speaker 1: and jeans and that almost blue jean Carhart jacket and 308 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 1: some type of hat or covering. And I'm like, my lord, 309 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: that could be him, that could be him, That could 310 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 1: be him. So that changed everything for me too, because 311 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: it's like, all right, maybe it's not that easy, the farming, 312 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: the weather, this is how a lot of people dress, 313 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,400 Speaker 1: it's how a lot of people look, So maybe it's 314 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:53,400 Speaker 1: more difficult. So again I think going and seeing it, Yeah, 315 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: the bridge is higher, and it's much longer. Wasn't it 316 00:17:57,359 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 1: longer than you ever imagined? 317 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 2: So much longer then I even could picture or grasp. 318 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 2: Even when you see it seems to go on forever. 319 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 2: And I think that obviously he knew that and looked 320 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 2: at it. I believe as the perfect trap to trap whoever. 321 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 2: The victims were on the other side of the bridge, 322 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,959 Speaker 2: and you mention everyone looking like each other, even Sheriff 323 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 2: Lesenbie said to me, no stone was unturned. He said 324 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:27,159 Speaker 2: he was questioned twice so because he said everyone in 325 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 2: this town could tend to look like it. Even Mike 326 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 2: joked he was questioned. He said, I want them to 327 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 2: get everyone out of the way. Question everybody as much 328 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 2: as you need to to truly find the right person. 329 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 2: And you know this, Cheryl, more than most. Isn't it 330 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:43,640 Speaker 2: obviously more difficult to solve something like this if there 331 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 2: is no connection, meaning it wasn't the husband or the 332 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 2: wife or the cousin, meaning if they're not connected in 333 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 2: any way. 334 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,439 Speaker 1: Correct, because you have no piece of a puzzle. You 335 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: don't have Oh well, they were just with their ex husband, 336 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 1: you know, that could be a clue, or they were 337 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,159 Speaker 1: you know, last seen at this party. And we've got 338 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: a bunch of witnesses. Maybe in this situation, we had 339 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: some witnesses that saw somebody walk in, but again not 340 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: somebody that was connected, not somebody that could say Oh, 341 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: that was Fred so and so so we didn't have that. 342 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 1: And then the composites, Oh, my lord, you have one composite. 343 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 1: Everybody's looking for this guy. It's put out everywhere. And 344 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: then suddenly there's a second and it's a much younger person, 345 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:32,439 Speaker 1: looks very different than the first composite. So here's what 346 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 1: I want to get to. You have covered so many 347 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: major things, but this case drew you in like no other, 348 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 1: and you just you had to write a book. You 349 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 1: had to put on paper about this case and about 350 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 1: this family and about these two young girls and law enforcement. 351 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 1: I mean, you have included everything and so many important people. 352 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: You've already mentioned Paul Holes, but you had other people 353 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,199 Speaker 1: that were talking to you and trying to help you 354 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: frame things about this perpetrator and the victims. So tell 355 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: us when you said, Okay, I'm writing a book, and 356 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: then how did you start? Well? 357 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 2: I got very good at compartmentalizing working at CNN seventeen 358 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 2: plus years before that, I was a local reporter in California, 359 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:25,719 Speaker 2: and as a journalist, you go out be listened to 360 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 2: the scanners back in the day, and you're there usually 361 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 2: after law enforcement. And what I saw and what you 362 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 2: see and the stories, but you're also thinking about, Okay, 363 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,719 Speaker 2: I'm live at five pm, six pm, eleven pm. I 364 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:39,640 Speaker 2: have to gather all of this. I have to edit. 365 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,719 Speaker 2: I have to So you're able to compartmentalize while keeping busy, 366 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 2: and you never get too close because of the news 367 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 2: cycle the way it moves, and you keep going and 368 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 2: even with unless it's highly reported on, like let's say 369 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 2: the Casey Anthony trial, of course, and before that before 370 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 2: her arrest with Kaylee missing, so something like that. Of 371 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 2: course were on it twenty four to seven. But with 372 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 2: the stories going through the news cycle, you rarely check 373 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 2: back with them, especially in local news too. I see 374 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 2: people outside of work and those who watched the show 375 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 2: I was on a morning show would say, whatever happened 376 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:20,640 Speaker 2: to that one person whose daughter this happened to her? 377 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 2: And I wouldn't know because the next news cycle happens. 378 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: Well with this. 379 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 2: It was very different because I was sent there to Delphi, 380 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:31,120 Speaker 2: and I'm so grateful that I was. I remember being 381 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 2: told by a producer, we're sending you to Delphi, and 382 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 2: I said, oh, yeah, the snapchambers with the video on 383 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 2: the bridge, the girl who took the cell phone footage, yes, 384 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 2: but then being welcomed in there and getting to know 385 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,919 Speaker 2: these families not just Hi, I'm Susan Hendrix, were rolling, 386 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 2: look at the camera, just talk to me, everything's fine, 387 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 2: and then moving on. It was like you said, back 388 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 2: to the kitchen table, Mike cooking spaghetti with meat sauce, 389 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 2: just acting. I got a glimpse of what the family 390 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 2: was with Libby there because of what they showed me 391 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 2: on Facebook video of Libby. There was a crack in 392 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 2: a watermelon. This video stood out to me, and she 393 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 2: tried to break it open and it did break open 394 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,919 Speaker 2: and she kind of fell back laughing, and she had 395 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,880 Speaker 2: a Superman T shirt on. So I felt like that 396 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 2: family felt. I felt like I was on the other 397 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 2: side of the camera and viewing their pain differently than 398 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 2: I viewed it from being on the other side of 399 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,880 Speaker 2: the camera. And it changed me significantly in a good 400 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 2: way as a journalist, as a mom, as a person. 401 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 2: And you look at them and you think, these families, 402 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 2: oh my gosh, everything they're going through, well they're getting 403 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 2: through this. You actually learn from them. You're actually in 404 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 2: awe over the family members, how they're able to wake 405 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 2: up the next day to keep going, especially in this case, 406 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 2: to keep looking for the man on the bridge. So 407 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 2: it changed me significantly, and once I decided to write 408 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,920 Speaker 2: the book, then I thought, oh, no, I really want 409 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 2: the family members to I wanted to write something that 410 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 2: they would be proud of a different perspective from their perspective, 411 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 2: and that's why it meant so much to me. With 412 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 2: Kelsey writing the forward, it was in my eyes, her 413 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 2: blessing and her perspective. She has a story to tell, 414 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 2: and I hope that she tells it someday because from 415 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 2: her perspective is very differently. This is from mine, through 416 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 2: the eyes of the family and what they went through throughout. 417 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: I'm going to read just a little bit from the forward, 418 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: if that's okay with you, because I think it's so 419 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: important for people to hear from Kelty. Growing up, it 420 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,360 Speaker 1: was Libby and me against the world. During our parents' divorce, 421 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 1: we never knew whose house we would be at or when, 422 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 1: and eventually we moved in with our grandparents. Throughout all 423 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: of it, Libby was my constant. We went through every 424 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,920 Speaker 1: high and every low together. Always thought that it would 425 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: be inevitable that she would be with me through everything 426 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:14,400 Speaker 1: life brought our way. That was until February thirteenth, twenty seventeen, 427 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,719 Speaker 1: when life as I knew it came crashing down and 428 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: turned into the kind of nightmare that until that moment, 429 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: people in small town Delphi had only heard about on television. 430 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,440 Speaker 1: Anybody that is a sister has a sister. I should 431 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: say that bond is different than a brother. They're both fabulous, 432 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: they're both fantastic, but they're different. And I think that 433 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: sister has that almost mothering instinct with the younger sibling, 434 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 1: and I think that's what gives this level of comfort 435 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 1: and love and protection. And I mean, it's hard for 436 00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 1: me to even really put into words because I'm the 437 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: younger sis and I have four mamas, you know, and 438 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 1: I always felt like, oh, everything's going to be okay 439 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:12,479 Speaker 1: because they're there. To me, it's almost a gift that 440 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,439 Speaker 1: she got to be with her till that last moment. 441 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 1: And I've tried to express that to her, that she's 442 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,399 Speaker 1: a bigger sister, she's the older one. No, I'm not 443 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:22,919 Speaker 1: going to take y' all. I've got things to do. 444 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 1: I'm going to go see a friend and I'm going 445 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: to go to work. You know how you do. And 446 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 1: then as that older sister, she said, no, you know 447 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: what I've told her. No, they just want to go 448 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,360 Speaker 1: have some fun. I'll take you, but I can't pick 449 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: you up. It was just that innocent, It was just 450 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: that loving kind I'm going to go out of my 451 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 1: way to do something for her so she can have 452 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:43,640 Speaker 1: a great day. That's all it was. 453 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 2: And you never think it's ever ever think it's the 454 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 2: last time you'll see that person. Ever. It was in 455 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,679 Speaker 2: the middle of the day, as we have said several times, 456 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 2: dropping them off. Becky Patty has said to me, They 457 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 2: asked me, and I said, yes, because they're off, they're tablets. 458 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 2: It's something fun, it's outdoors. Why would you ever think 459 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 2: that anything bad would happen there? You wouldn't. It was 460 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 2: the innocence of two young girls. And Kelsey after that, 461 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,719 Speaker 2: of course, being thrust into this position of being her 462 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 2: sister's advocate and her life changing and being questioned by 463 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 2: the authorities, as she said early on last one, to 464 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 2: see her sister and Abby and just everything she was 465 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 2: thrown into. And I remember this stands out to me 466 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 2: walking down to the bridge with her on that February 467 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 2: day and saying realizing just how mature she seemed, but 468 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:40,919 Speaker 2: innocent in a way at the same time, and just 469 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 2: so sweet and nice and nice and saying she wanted 470 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 2: to study be kind of help others and study forensics 471 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,199 Speaker 2: or what have you. And she was, I believe it 472 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,239 Speaker 2: for do at the time, I just said, you know, 473 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 2: if you went down a path that wasn't this path, 474 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 2: people would un stand, meaning turning to things that would 475 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 2: numb you, people would understand. And she said I was 476 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 2: what helped her. She said, I'm sure she told you 477 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,640 Speaker 2: as well, to connect with people at crime Con who 478 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,360 Speaker 2: really knew what she was going through, who felt that 479 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 2: gut wrenching loss, and who could say it's okay, you're 480 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 2: going to be okay. You need to be strong for Libby. 481 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 2: And that's when she said she gained her voice and 482 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,639 Speaker 2: was able to move forward. But it stood out to 483 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 2: me in Austin meeting Kelsey several times, but this was 484 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 2: in Austin in twenty twenty one, I believe, And we 485 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 2: were all sitting out at a restaurant and she was 486 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 2: engaged to Caleb and said, you know, I won't have 487 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,880 Speaker 2: kids until he's found. I can't almost in a way 488 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 2: kind of reiterating it to herself. And I didn't say 489 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:49,159 Speaker 2: anything I wanted to, but I felt like she had 490 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 2: made that decision. She was just kind of reiterating that statement, 491 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 2: and it made me realize that she everything in their 492 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 2: world stopped. That was the mission, that was their purpose. 493 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 2: They wanted to find the guy in the sketch, and 494 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 2: when the sketch changed to the younger looking guy, they 495 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 2: just regroup. The families did talk about strength and just 496 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 2: kept handing out those flyers. But with Kelsey and she 497 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,479 Speaker 2: just had a little baby girl this summer, Ellie, and 498 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 2: it's so great to see. And I feel like once 499 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 2: someone was in custody, you know, it hasn't been smooth 500 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 2: sailing by any means about the legal process and where 501 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 2: we are now. But to think, okay, if he's charged 502 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 2: with this again, innocential, proven guilty, I felt like it 503 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 2: almost allowed Kelsey to exhale, if you will, never forgetting Libby. 504 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 2: That was their biggest fear. Even Becky said, look, when 505 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 2: the insurance cards come, it's the little things and her 506 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 2: name's no longer on there. It's those things that eat 507 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 2: away at me. And that's my biggest fear. And I 508 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 2: believe that she, of course and Abby as well, will 509 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 2: never be forgotten. 510 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 1: You and I are both mamas, we both have daughters 511 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: and sons, but the daughter's civically, Kelsey was seventeen. I mean, 512 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: just think back what you were doing at seventeen. I mean, 513 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: it's cheerleading practice. What boys smiled at you? And what 514 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: are we going to wear to the dance? I mean, 515 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: that's it. There should be nothing more important than that. 516 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 2: Not the national spotlight. I remember her telling me that 517 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 2: she was on Doctor Phil and she was so nervous. 518 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 2: Everything was new to her, the murder. She was still 519 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 2: trying to she said, for a while, it was almost 520 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:34,719 Speaker 2: like a numbing feeling, like it was surreal. Not it 521 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 2: didn't register, of course, being seventeen years old, that you 522 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 2: wouldn't see your sister an Abby ever again and just 523 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 2: where she is now, but forever changed, of course, And 524 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 2: the families didn't ask for this, the media in Delphi, 525 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 2: the whole town of Delphi, being the focus of this 526 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 2: investigation of what happened to those two girls and criticized too, 527 00:29:57,880 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 2: which is another. 528 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: Side to this. I do want to talk about something positive, 529 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: and that's when you know you hosted them at crime 530 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: Con more than once. And they've been a part of 531 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: crime Con since Indianapolis. And I know Kelsey and I 532 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 1: when she was talking about for doing what she wanted 533 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: to major in, and you know, she was going to 534 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: study and maybe become a victim avocate or work in 535 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: forensics like you're talking about. And I said, well, honey, 536 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: look around. I mean you've got Nancy Grace and Vinnie 537 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: Polatan and Kim Goldman and Susan Hendrix and Paul Hols, 538 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 1: any of those folks, the ladies from the Golden State 539 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 1: Killer or all her friends too. And I said, think 540 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: of the paper you could write and the people you 541 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: could quote. I mean, you're sitting on a gold mine 542 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: that your professors are going to think. This has got 543 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: to be a lie. There's no way this child knows 544 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: these people and can get them on the phone. But 545 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: that's who Keltsey is. She is unassuming and she's quiet, 546 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: if not almost shah. But once you break that and 547 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: you become her friend, she's fabulous. And you know she's 548 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: funny and smart and just her heart. I mean it 549 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 1: still belongs to our sister, but you know, she has 550 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: helped so many other people that people don't even. 551 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 2: Know about so intelligent and thinking about the pain that 552 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 2: she did go through could be her purpose. It is 553 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 2: her purpose. Her pain is her purpose and the people 554 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 2: that she can help because of the pain that her 555 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 2: and her family have gone through. I remember it was 556 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 2: October thirty first, Richard Allen was in custody. The press 557 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 2: conference twenty twenty two is that morning that night hosting 558 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 2: a panel I did. Paul Hols was on there, Superintendent 559 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 2: Doug Carter. I interviewed Mike and Becky as well, and 560 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 2: Becky just looked and I know, you know this just 561 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 2: so defeated in a way. 562 00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 1: And she had said. 563 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 2: To me on the phone, and I called her the 564 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 2: night before, I don't know what my purpose is anymore, 565 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 2: and I said, well, I've seen it. I saw your purpose. 566 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 2: It's you're helping others. It makes me tear up, but 567 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 2: it just it was a shift, of course, because I think, 568 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 2: of course every morning she woke up putting on Facebook 569 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 2: today is the day that was their purpose to find 570 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 2: this guy. And I think that gave them the strength 571 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 2: to kind of move forward. But I remember Paul pointing 572 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 2: this out, and I'm sure you've seen it. It's like 573 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 2: that's another stage. Once you see a face or once 574 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 2: it's a different it's a different aspect to this. And 575 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 2: I think Mike said to me, he's an action kind 576 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 2: of a guy. He said, Okay, it's time for us 577 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 2: to regroup. Someone's in custody. Still keep those calls coming in. 578 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 2: That family was still moving forward with helping and doing 579 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 2: what they could do what was in their control. 580 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 1: Well, you know, I preached to the younger detectives and rookies, 581 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: once an arrest is made, the real investigation begins. It 582 00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 1: doesn't stop. The investigation does disolutely not stop at arrest, 583 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 1: and nor should it. But again, in your book, you 584 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: beautifully add what Superintendent Doug Carter said at the press conference, 585 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: and I just want to quote that when he said, first, 586 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 1: I'd like to speak directly to Anna, Mike, Becky, Kelsey, 587 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 1: and your extended families, along with the entire Delphi community 588 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:28,719 Speaker 1: that certainly has grown and now includes our nation and 589 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: even many countries around the world. I am proud to 590 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 1: report to you that today was the day. For all 591 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 1: of us that followed Becky on social media. Every single 592 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 1: day she posted today could be the day, and suddenly 593 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: today's the day that he was arrested. So I know, 594 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 1: as you're writing this book and that happens, that's just 595 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 1: a whole nother chapter you've got to jump on immediately. 596 00:33:56,160 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, as you were quoting the super Tendon, I really 597 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 2: admire him in a way of what he how he 598 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 2: handled this. It certainly wasn't easy. I mean, he had 599 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 2: you name it, every media outlet saying what's going on? 600 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 2: Why isn't anyone in custody? And I remember asking him, 601 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,479 Speaker 2: I have the book open to that chapter. That night, 602 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 2: I said something stood out to me. You said in 603 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 2: the press conference you believe that good outweighs evil. Do 604 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 2: you still believe that? I asked him. 605 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:30,759 Speaker 1: He said, I do. 606 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 2: You know, very personally, before my dad died, he made 607 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 2: me promise not to become cynical like him, and I 608 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 2: was proud to report to him in twenty eighteen that 609 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 2: I'm not and will to this day. I'm not. I 610 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 2: really do believe, after all of these years in this 611 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 2: business and seeing such horror and tragedy, and the list 612 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 2: goes on and on, that good always always comes through evil, 613 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,280 Speaker 2: and today's an excit apple of that. So his father 614 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:04,799 Speaker 2: in law enforcement as well, saying don't become cynical like me. 615 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:05,440 Speaker 1: Don't do it. 616 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 2: And he had a way of saying, look, I'm not 617 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 2: letting this guy win. Whoever did this is not winning. 618 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,320 Speaker 2: They're evil. But overall, the good of this town of Delphi, 619 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,719 Speaker 2: in the country, overall good does out weigh evil. I 620 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:17,840 Speaker 2: thought that was poignant. 621 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,479 Speaker 1: He's absolutely right, and love wins. So you're talking about 622 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 1: one person, one person to this that we know of 623 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 1: right now, one person. How many people have gone to 624 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:33,399 Speaker 1: Delphi to help, not just from Delphi, but how many 625 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,320 Speaker 1: other people have gone there. You've gone there, I've gone there. 626 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,759 Speaker 1: I know several people from law enforcement agencies across the 627 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: country that went to try to help. Because Delphi had 628 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: never had a child murdered that wasn't directly related to family, 629 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,799 Speaker 1: and they certainly had never had a double murder. So 630 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 1: there were people across the country that have had that 631 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,880 Speaker 1: situation that thought, hey, let me give them just what 632 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 1: i've got if they can use it, great, And I'll 633 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 1: just tell you one quick story. There was a person 634 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 1: that is a accent expert that works for Disney. I 635 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:13,879 Speaker 1: didn't know him, never met him, but I contacted him 636 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 1: and I said, look, I've got a short little audio. 637 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,799 Speaker 1: He just says a couple of words. But there's a 638 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 1: few things that stick out to me. But I'm not 639 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 1: an expert. I just know in Georgia there's some things 640 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 1: I wouldn't say. And he said, what is this for? 641 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 1: And I said, well, two little girls have been murdered. 642 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 1: He said, okay, don't tell me anything about it, but 643 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:39,280 Speaker 1: send me the audio, and I did instantly. He wrote 644 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 1: back and said it sounds like rural Indiana. So I 645 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:44,840 Speaker 1: contacted them and said, look, I don't know if this 646 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:46,919 Speaker 1: is going to help you or not, but the expert says, 647 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,520 Speaker 1: this person sounds like rural Indiana. I know that people 648 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:55,399 Speaker 1: did that because I've talked to hundreds and they're all like, hey, 649 00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:57,520 Speaker 1: I sent him this, or I told him that, or 650 00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 1: I thought this about the bridge, or I thought that 651 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,719 Speaker 1: about the way he's got his hands. And you know, 652 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:08,879 Speaker 1: when you start really focusing on minute details and this 653 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,880 Speaker 1: is what you do, and you do it instinctively, so 654 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,840 Speaker 1: much starts to play through your head. And for me 655 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,879 Speaker 1: driving around that town, the town is beautiful. It looks 656 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 1: like a movie set, and especially in the fall, oh 657 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,319 Speaker 1: my gosh, it is so tremendous and then you meet 658 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: the people and they're exactly what you think. They're exactly 659 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 1: what you've heard your whole life about Middle America saw 660 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: to the earth. They are unbelievably so that's so true. 661 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 2: And thinking of the Ibby and Libby Memorial Park that 662 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:45,839 Speaker 2: was built, it started as an idea within both families saying, oh, 663 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 2: how about a softball field in their name? And Mike 664 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,399 Speaker 2: said it was something finally to focus on. That wasn't 665 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 2: the investigation, That wasn't the search for the guy in 666 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,880 Speaker 2: the bridge. That wasn't it with the media. It was 667 00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 2: about the girls and never forgetting in the amount of 668 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 2: volunt tears that they got. Eric Abby's grandfather said to me, 669 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 2: you know, Susan, there was someone there who had a 670 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,359 Speaker 2: tractor and he was really into helping. He was all 671 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 2: in and I didn't know if he knew Mike. No 672 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 2: one really knew him. And then he shared his story 673 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 2: and said that his brother was murdered and it was 674 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:20,400 Speaker 2: unsolved and for him it was a way to heal. 675 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 2: And they've done that through with Abby's angels. Anna, Abby's 676 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,799 Speaker 2: mom started and just a way of saying, Okay, this 677 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,799 Speaker 2: horrific thing happened. What can we control how can we 678 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:34,839 Speaker 2: continue to put good out there? And we've seen it 679 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:39,080 Speaker 2: continuously through the almost six years before someone was in custody. 680 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,160 Speaker 1: I mean, they've had people show up. They Kelsey was 681 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,440 Speaker 1: telling me that when they were putting the playground equipment together, 682 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 1: like a fraternity showed up, like, here's all these young 683 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 1: guys saying, hey, we want to help, you know, put 684 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,400 Speaker 1: this together for you know, all the future kids that 685 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:56,240 Speaker 1: are going to play on it. And I just thought, again, 686 00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,759 Speaker 1: there are these people Kelsey's ages, they're still young that 687 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 1: cared enough to come out the professional basketball team gave 688 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,239 Speaker 1: and gave and gave. So I think again, if you 689 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 1: look to what the legacy is going to be, it's 690 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,440 Speaker 1: going to absolutely be a legacy of love. That's all 691 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:14,000 Speaker 1: there is to it. 692 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I remember during the reward kept growing and growing, 693 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:23,320 Speaker 2: and there were a couple anonymous donations to this, just hoping, Okay, 694 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 2: we don't feel like we have any control here, maybe 695 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:28,920 Speaker 2: this will help, Maybe this will nudge someone. And back 696 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,480 Speaker 2: to the investigation. I think that that's what that law 697 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,200 Speaker 2: enforcement was hoping for. That's why and you mentioned a 698 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:36,920 Speaker 2: piece of the puzzle earlier. 699 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:37,640 Speaker 1: That's what they. 700 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,279 Speaker 2: Always said, we just need that one piece, and I 701 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:43,439 Speaker 2: think they were relying, relying saying okay is from there 702 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 2: because of what we assessed at the bridge, relying on 703 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:48,840 Speaker 2: a family member to say, oh, that's my cousin, I 704 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,799 Speaker 2: know that walk, that's my dad, that's my husband, and 705 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:57,080 Speaker 2: that call never came. So I think it was almost 706 00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 2: the perfect storm of having people wanting to help, and 707 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,759 Speaker 2: at the press conferences a law enforcement saying just make 708 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,360 Speaker 2: the call, apping Libby need you, we all need you, 709 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,799 Speaker 2: make the call, and people were calling in it just 710 00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:13,799 Speaker 2: the tips weren't. I don't know if reliables the term, 711 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,400 Speaker 2: but sometimes I remember Sergeant Kim Riley said to me, 712 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 2: you know, sometimes we get a tip that says I 713 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 2: saw a guy on a bus in Greyhound and a 714 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 2: Greyhound bus in Florida. I saw a guy and it 715 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,439 Speaker 2: looked like the sketch and that's all the information he got. 716 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,920 Speaker 2: So people wanted to help. The intention was there, but 717 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,880 Speaker 2: they just never got As far as we know, I 718 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,280 Speaker 2: don't know what happened specifically that led to the arrest 719 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:40,319 Speaker 2: of Richard Allen, but throughout those years, that tip that 720 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:41,640 Speaker 2: they needed just never came in. 721 00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,880 Speaker 1: Well, I want to say something to you personally, and 722 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:55,800 Speaker 1: that is this. In law enforcement, we're told don't get invested, 723 00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 1: don't befriend the family. You've got to stay you know, 724 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:03,680 Speaker 1: stoe week and detached so that you can properly work something. 725 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:08,279 Speaker 1: I've always disagreed with that, primarily because I couldn't help it. 726 00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,959 Speaker 1: I mean, if I get drawn to somebody and I 727 00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,600 Speaker 1: like them and befriend them, I mean I can't. That's 728 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:16,760 Speaker 1: not something I can control. 729 00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,640 Speaker 2: Because you're kind and empathetic, right, and it's difficult to not. 730 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,480 Speaker 1: It is impossible. And here's what I think is such 731 00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:25,960 Speaker 1: a gift. And this is what I want to say 732 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:30,120 Speaker 1: to you. What I know for a fact you have 733 00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:33,920 Speaker 1: done for that family, all the families involved, the extended 734 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,719 Speaker 1: family and law enforcement. If this was just one of 735 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 1: those it's on the you know, conveyor belt, I'm going 736 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:43,880 Speaker 1: to report on it. Oh there was a fire at 737 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:46,080 Speaker 1: sixteenth Street, then you move on. Oh there was a 738 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,000 Speaker 1: dry by shooting at you know, the plaza, and you're 739 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:54,080 Speaker 1: moving and you don't go back. Those people don't have 740 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:58,480 Speaker 1: a support system outside other people that are hurt. Kelsey 741 00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:03,320 Speaker 1: can call you today, you can go there for the trial. 742 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:07,239 Speaker 1: And she has a support system that's not somebody that's 743 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:09,920 Speaker 1: going to fall apart. And I think that is a 744 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,560 Speaker 1: gift that you had given her. Plus you've put it 745 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:17,359 Speaker 1: in a book that is so beautifully written that this 746 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,799 Speaker 1: is something she can show Ellie if she can't talk 747 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:24,560 Speaker 1: about it fully. Ellie has the book. What you've done 748 00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:32,000 Speaker 1: there is for their family historically preserved the truth. 749 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,360 Speaker 2: And I know that you have a similar relationship to 750 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,080 Speaker 2: the family as well. I mean, you were just the 751 00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:41,360 Speaker 2: most kind and empathetic person in law enforcement I've ever met. 752 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:44,200 Speaker 2: But just the way you bring people in and you 753 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,960 Speaker 2: draw people in, and that was what was most important 754 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:49,799 Speaker 2: to me, is because in all the other stories we cover, 755 00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:52,799 Speaker 2: even let's say Lacy Peterson, we only had that one 756 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:56,000 Speaker 2: image remember of her she was pregnant. And this is before, 757 00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:58,319 Speaker 2: of course, social media, where we tend to have more 758 00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,239 Speaker 2: now to show who these people are are. But that 759 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:03,640 Speaker 2: was important to me because Abby and Libby are so 760 00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,160 Speaker 2: much more than what they are on that wanted poster 761 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,520 Speaker 2: so much more. We saw Abby with the hat, well, 762 00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 2: she made it with her mom. It was for a wedding. 763 00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:15,719 Speaker 2: They were going to the New Orleans theme and just 764 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,760 Speaker 2: hearing Diane and back to how much law enforcement really 765 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,759 Speaker 2: connected with the families here. For those who say otherwise 766 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,080 Speaker 2: are wrong that Diane said, look I see screensavers on 767 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:28,680 Speaker 2: law enforcement phones. It's Abby and Libby. They think about 768 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,120 Speaker 2: it daily, just like we do. And so that was 769 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:36,040 Speaker 2: important to me to I remember looking through Libby's Facebook page, 770 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:38,560 Speaker 2: which is now memorial. You can go on there and 771 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:42,560 Speaker 2: write about memories or what have you read about Libby? 772 00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:46,480 Speaker 2: And what stood out to me the most was her 773 00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:51,000 Speaker 2: relationship with their aunt Tara, and just how funny Libby was. 774 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:54,279 Speaker 2: She would say, she would get into Tara's page and say, 775 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,120 Speaker 2: Libby's my favorite. The contest is over joking in that way, 776 00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:03,799 Speaker 2: and you really felt like those girls, you got the 777 00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:06,640 Speaker 2: essence of them. I wanted to portray that in the 778 00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:09,800 Speaker 2: book thirteen and fourteen years old now my daughter's fourteen. 779 00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:13,120 Speaker 2: When I covered this, when this happened, I remember looking 780 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:15,840 Speaker 2: through my pictures and saying, where was I on the 781 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:19,319 Speaker 2: thirteenth What was I doing in twenty seventeen? And there's 782 00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,800 Speaker 2: a picture of Emory that comes up and we're baking cupcakes. 783 00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:25,880 Speaker 2: But it's like they don't get that anymore. 784 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:34,560 Speaker 1: Thanks absolutely, And you know Caroline, she is Libby's age. 785 00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,240 Speaker 1: So every time I've ever gone, I mean, she always 786 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:39,279 Speaker 1: goes with me at Crime Con that's when she first 787 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:43,400 Speaker 1: met you. You were walking fast. I think you've had 788 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:45,960 Speaker 1: a session or something. And Caroline's like, do you think 789 00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:47,640 Speaker 1: she would take a picture? I said, I think so, 790 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,040 Speaker 1: but she looks kind of busy. Honey. You stopped, you 791 00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:54,359 Speaker 1: took pictures with her. She was thrilled at her mind, 792 00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:59,600 Speaker 1: you know. But Kelsey, I think had just this natural 793 00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:02,719 Speaker 1: draw to her because she knew that age. She knew 794 00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:05,600 Speaker 1: that you know, kind of way of talking and things 795 00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,200 Speaker 1: that you know, Caroline was interested in was a lot 796 00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:10,840 Speaker 1: like Libby. And you know, every time I've gone to 797 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:14,480 Speaker 1: Crome Con or to Delphi, Caroline's been with me and 798 00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:18,520 Speaker 1: they have a special relationship that they will laugh about things. 799 00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:22,680 Speaker 1: And the day of the press conference when they announced 800 00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:27,520 Speaker 1: the arrest, Caroline and I were there, and afterwards Kelsey 801 00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,279 Speaker 1: was so adorable. But she was like, y'all want to 802 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,359 Speaker 1: go to the dog Pound, which is a bar, and 803 00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:37,719 Speaker 1: Caroline said, she said, well, I'm not twenty one. She went, 804 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:39,160 Speaker 1: this is Delphi, come on. 805 00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:40,440 Speaker 2: So love it. 806 00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,360 Speaker 1: And then afterwards Kelsey said, I want to go to 807 00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,799 Speaker 1: the bridge, and Caroline said let's go, and it was 808 00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,200 Speaker 1: the first time she was able to go to the 809 00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:53,200 Speaker 1: bridge and she told us, I know he's not here, 810 00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:58,840 Speaker 1: I know he's not watching. So again all these layers 811 00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:02,920 Speaker 1: of like freedom and relief. But then it comes with, 812 00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:06,920 Speaker 1: like you said, the reality of I've seen his face. 813 00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:09,920 Speaker 1: I know he's talked to me at that CVS. 814 00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:13,959 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, when Becky told me that because I called 815 00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,200 Speaker 2: after I heard about the arrest and she said, Matt, 816 00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:19,320 Speaker 2: my nephew's wedding, hold on and calls me from the 817 00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:21,880 Speaker 2: hall and I said, oh, I don't want to interrupt. 818 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,560 Speaker 2: She said, no, it's all anyone's talking about anyway. And 819 00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,239 Speaker 2: Tara Tarah recognized him the day of the funeral. She 820 00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,360 Speaker 2: went into CVS and she was crying, of course, getting 821 00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,120 Speaker 2: pictures of Libby from near the casket, and he said, 822 00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:38,560 Speaker 2: it's on me. And for close to six years they 823 00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:40,920 Speaker 2: had been at any stoplight you look over, Could that 824 00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,880 Speaker 2: be it? Could this be it? Never thinking the person 825 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,200 Speaker 2: was right in front of you. What as you said, 826 00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:50,480 Speaker 2: hearing that voice and getting that analysis, knowing that from 827 00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,200 Speaker 2: Delphi talk about hiding in plain sight, that's exactly where 828 00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:57,040 Speaker 2: he was allegedly innocent. I'll proven guilty. But the arrest 829 00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:59,279 Speaker 2: I mean for all those years, and the suspects and 830 00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:01,960 Speaker 2: the names. I don't say suspects, because no one was 831 00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:05,360 Speaker 2: officially named a suspect or even really a quote unquote 832 00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,560 Speaker 2: person of interest that they were willing to talk about 833 00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:10,960 Speaker 2: but never in arrest. That to me was telling finally 834 00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:16,120 Speaker 2: someone's in custody, and now it's a whole other the process, 835 00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:19,480 Speaker 2: the judicial system of where we go from here. And 836 00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:21,920 Speaker 2: Paul said, expect delays, and that's what we're seeing. 837 00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:24,800 Speaker 1: Oh yes, no, he let me tell you he knows. 838 00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:27,640 Speaker 1: And I love that you're using the word allegedly, but 839 00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:32,479 Speaker 1: I also want to throw out he's confessed five times. Yes, 840 00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:33,560 Speaker 1: that's good. 841 00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:37,040 Speaker 2: I'm glad you mentioned that that gets lost and those 842 00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:39,160 Speaker 2: who choose to believe that it's not him, and there's 843 00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:42,799 Speaker 2: theories out there and there's open forums and what have you. 844 00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,319 Speaker 2: I would just wait for what we hear in the 845 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:49,400 Speaker 2: courtroom once we get there. But absolutely I think the 846 00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:52,440 Speaker 2: Odinis theory and all of that came out the memorandum 847 00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:56,919 Speaker 2: to me disguised as a request for Frank's hearing, which 848 00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:01,200 Speaker 2: was really the ability to interfere with the gag order 849 00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:03,279 Speaker 2: or what have you, or put their theories out there. 850 00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:07,560 Speaker 2: Just my opinion. But right, we were talking about the 851 00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:11,120 Speaker 2: confession on a tablet in prison, and everyone knows that 852 00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:13,120 Speaker 2: it's recorded or it tells you or what have you, 853 00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:17,120 Speaker 2: that he confessed, and Nick mcclearland mentioned that, and at 854 00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:20,919 Speaker 2: the time his attorneys Baldwin and Rosie mentioned that too, 855 00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:23,399 Speaker 2: that yes he did, and then turn around and say 856 00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:27,560 Speaker 2: it's because of how poorly he's being treated, like a 857 00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:30,800 Speaker 2: preser of war. So all of a sudden it went away. 858 00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:35,399 Speaker 2: And if he's admitting to that, I'm assuming it will 859 00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:37,840 Speaker 2: be used in court. And what is he saying now, 860 00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,760 Speaker 2: so it'll be interesting that that we will see in court. 861 00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:45,479 Speaker 1: Well, here's what I'm most interested in. He confessed how 862 00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:49,880 Speaker 1: because if he said anything to his wife or mother 863 00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:54,960 Speaker 1: that was not public knowledge. If he said how they 864 00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:57,279 Speaker 1: were laying, or what he did first, or who he 865 00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:00,680 Speaker 1: killed first, or how he did it, or you know 866 00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:04,200 Speaker 1: what some of the evidence that has come out, you know, 867 00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:07,160 Speaker 1: what was it, what were you doing with sticks, what 868 00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:07,960 Speaker 1: were you carving? 869 00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:08,239 Speaker 2: What? 870 00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:11,880 Speaker 1: You know? How was somebody dressed? If he says anything 871 00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:15,759 Speaker 1: that we don't know because they've never officially released the 872 00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:18,440 Speaker 1: cause of death. I can tell you what I think. 873 00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:20,600 Speaker 1: I can tell you that I think their throats were cut. 874 00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:25,919 Speaker 1: But if he said I cut their throat, that's very 875 00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:29,399 Speaker 1: different than saying, okay, I killed them. Anybody can say that, 876 00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:33,600 Speaker 1: but the detail because he did it five separate times 877 00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:37,239 Speaker 1: to his wife and mama, so you would think those 878 00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:40,000 Speaker 1: would be the two people that he'd be like, you know, 879 00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:42,440 Speaker 1: I didn't do it. You know I'm not capable. That 880 00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:43,320 Speaker 1: ain't what he said. 881 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:48,360 Speaker 2: That's a good point. So if and I do remember 882 00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,279 Speaker 2: hearing that his wife ended the call abruptly. I don't 883 00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:53,840 Speaker 2: know if it was on a phone or a tablet 884 00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:55,520 Speaker 2: or what have you, but I know that they the 885 00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:59,279 Speaker 2: prisons have to tell you it's recorded. But you're right 886 00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:02,600 Speaker 2: if anything specific in there that only the killer would know. 887 00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:05,640 Speaker 2: And law enforcement got a lot of criticism Sherylyn that says, 888 00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:07,880 Speaker 2: you know, saying tell us more, we need more information. 889 00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:09,239 Speaker 1: But what if they did. 890 00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:11,480 Speaker 2: What if they said there was an unspent bullet and 891 00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:13,479 Speaker 2: it is Richard Allen, what do you've tossed the gun? 892 00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:17,239 Speaker 2: I mean, so the investigation, there's a lot of They 893 00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:19,920 Speaker 2: asked the public for helps. They wanted their help Hipline, 894 00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:23,319 Speaker 2: Abby and Lebniji, they said on several occasions. But it 895 00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:25,360 Speaker 2: doesn't mean that we have the right to say what 896 00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:28,920 Speaker 2: we deserve to know as the public, because we don't. 897 00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:32,080 Speaker 2: It's their investigation. Now it goes to a court of 898 00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:35,319 Speaker 2: law where they have to try this case the prosecution. 899 00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:40,680 Speaker 2: So the criticism I think was unnecessary during but I 900 00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:44,000 Speaker 2: digress right the confession four or five times that they 901 00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:48,880 Speaker 2: both mentioned. It'll be interesting to see what happens in 902 00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:51,880 Speaker 2: terms of if the now new appointed attorneys stay on. 903 00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:56,560 Speaker 2: I want a fair trial, and I remember the families 904 00:50:56,600 --> 00:51:00,799 Speaker 2: of course saying this that they want fair trial for 905 00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:03,239 Speaker 2: Richard Allen as well. Why would they ever want the 906 00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:04,840 Speaker 2: wrong person to be in custody. 907 00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:05,480 Speaker 1: They don't. 908 00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:09,319 Speaker 2: That was their biggest fear during this lengthy investigation was 909 00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:13,160 Speaker 2: if he's capable of this, And the superintended obviously said 910 00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:14,960 Speaker 2: it over and over and said it to me as well. 911 00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:17,959 Speaker 2: If they're capable of this, they're capable of doing it again, 912 00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:19,080 Speaker 2: and that was the biggest fear. 913 00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:22,880 Speaker 1: Our friend Barbara McDonald has preached that from the beginning, 914 00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:26,880 Speaker 1: you won't everything perfect. You want him to have the 915 00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:31,360 Speaker 1: best trial possible, no mistakes, and she's right. 916 00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:35,279 Speaker 2: Everyone deserved that a fair trial, and the evidence has 917 00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:37,440 Speaker 2: to be shown. I don't think we know all of 918 00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:39,600 Speaker 2: it in the probable cause, Effi, David, I don't know 919 00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:42,439 Speaker 2: if it's just that unspent bullet. What did they find 920 00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:45,880 Speaker 2: during that search. We're hoping to learn during this trial 921 00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:49,120 Speaker 2: is exactly what evidence they have and what finally led 922 00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:52,400 Speaker 2: to them. And I love that story about you and 923 00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:54,960 Speaker 2: Kelsey at the bridge. It just I feel like that 924 00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:58,640 Speaker 2: was a turning point for her. The thing that I found, 925 00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:02,240 Speaker 2: I think that I've learned and that I've been able 926 00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:06,600 Speaker 2: to assess from reporting on the murders of Aby and 927 00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:11,239 Speaker 2: Livy is the community that we spoke of that is 928 00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:16,000 Speaker 2: supportive to Kelsey and just the crime community who I've 929 00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:19,040 Speaker 2: been able to meet, who I've been able to connect with. 930 00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:23,520 Speaker 2: It's under the worst circumstances that you do, as you said, 931 00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:27,759 Speaker 2: Sharah love Wins that you find these connections that are 932 00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:32,239 Speaker 2: something that it's hard to describe. It's healing and it's supportive, 933 00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:35,760 Speaker 2: and it's saying, Okay, this is an evil, horrific act, 934 00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:38,480 Speaker 2: but this isn't the end of it. We're here to 935 00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:41,040 Speaker 2: support you. Whether we've been through it ourselves or we 936 00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:45,759 Speaker 2: know someone who has. And Diane Avi's grandmother said that 937 00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:47,759 Speaker 2: to me, you know, Susan, people just look at me. 938 00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:49,440 Speaker 2: They come up to me at crime con It's kind 939 00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:51,600 Speaker 2: of an unspoken word. They look at me, and I 940 00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:55,239 Speaker 2: know they've been through something similar. So what I'm able 941 00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:59,439 Speaker 2: to see through meeting various families who have gone through 942 00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:03,160 Speaker 2: the worst of the worst is that the strength is undeniable, 943 00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:05,359 Speaker 2: and it truly is inspiring to. 944 00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:10,200 Speaker 1: See Kelsey's husband, Caleb. They are such an adorable couple 945 00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:13,600 Speaker 1: and they're so supportive of each other, and I think 946 00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:17,480 Speaker 1: he has been such a source of strength that, again, 947 00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:21,200 Speaker 1: for somebody so young, is just incredible. But the last 948 00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:24,840 Speaker 1: time Caroline and I were there, after the announcement of 949 00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:28,120 Speaker 1: the arrest and all, Kelsey said, do you know, I 950 00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:31,560 Speaker 1: hadn't been back into the CVS. I hadn't been back 951 00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:34,560 Speaker 1: to the bridge and all that. So we rode. I 952 00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:36,880 Speaker 1: was driving and I just pulled into the CVS and 953 00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:38,880 Speaker 1: she was like, I ain't going in there, and she 954 00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:44,480 Speaker 1: started laughing. Ironically. There was a poster on the outside. 955 00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:47,839 Speaker 1: They were looking for an employee, like, you know, come 956 00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:50,239 Speaker 1: in and apply and I said, I will give you 957 00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:53,240 Speaker 1: one hundred dollars cash if you go in there apply 958 00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:54,520 Speaker 1: for Richard Allens John. 959 00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:58,200 Speaker 2: And now you see Cheryl's you probably already know if 960 00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:00,600 Speaker 2: you're listening to this her SE's a few. I loved 961 00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:02,480 Speaker 2: that with healthy cracking up. 962 00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:04,440 Speaker 1: She was cracking up. So she got out of the 963 00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:07,200 Speaker 1: car and she did this cute pose where she's pointing 964 00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:09,920 Speaker 1: at the you know, employment poster, and I said, that's 965 00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:12,600 Speaker 1: what I'm telling you. Take this town back. We're going 966 00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:14,239 Speaker 1: to go to his house. We're going to go into 967 00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:16,960 Speaker 1: the CBS, We're gonna go to the bridge. Let's just 968 00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:21,480 Speaker 1: burn this town down, honey, you know. And I mean, 969 00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:24,759 Speaker 1: she's so cute, you know. And she's again, I mean, 970 00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:27,480 Speaker 1: I'm sixty, she's you know at the time, I guess 971 00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:30,080 Speaker 1: nineteen or twenty twenty one. Well I guess she had 972 00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:34,239 Speaker 1: to be twenty one. But again, just that fun, you know. 973 00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:36,880 Speaker 1: And of course Caroline is like, Mom, we cannot go 974 00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:40,200 Speaker 1: to his house. I'm like, dude, he's in jail. I mean, 975 00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:42,640 Speaker 1: who's gonna tell us we came? You know what I mean, 976 00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:46,160 Speaker 1: Let's let's go to these places she's been unable to 977 00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:47,920 Speaker 1: go to there's no fear. 978 00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:52,160 Speaker 2: And to me, that's healing. She has you, Cheryl, you 979 00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:56,279 Speaker 2: are a friend who can laugh. I mean she You're 980 00:54:56,360 --> 00:54:59,759 Speaker 2: right when this occurred seventeen eighteen nineteen, think of those 981 00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:04,160 Speaker 2: four normative years and feeling guilty. She has said to 982 00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:07,200 Speaker 2: me at times, meaning when good things happen. Let's say 983 00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:11,520 Speaker 2: that of course her marriage, her baby shower, these pivotal 984 00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:14,360 Speaker 2: moments that she said, look, Libby should be having these moments, 985 00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:18,120 Speaker 2: but then realizing, look, if she didn't have the strength 986 00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:20,759 Speaker 2: to go on, she had to for Libby. So she 987 00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:24,000 Speaker 2: I believe obviously, through Ellie and through Kayleb and through 988 00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:27,000 Speaker 2: her family and through you, her support system, she's able 989 00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:29,680 Speaker 2: to do this and bring the memory of Libby which 990 00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:32,399 Speaker 2: will never go away. She's always there with them. 991 00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:36,360 Speaker 1: Down the Hill is an award winning book. If you 992 00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:40,280 Speaker 1: would do something for me, would you read from page 993 00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:44,000 Speaker 1: two fifty one where you talk about in all those moments. 994 00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:46,080 Speaker 2: Through it all, she keeps Libby close to her heart, 995 00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:50,000 Speaker 2: always with her in all of those moments, every single 996 00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:53,120 Speaker 2: moment that happens, whether it's good or it's bad, no 997 00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:56,080 Speaker 2: matter what I'm going through, She's always there and I 998 00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:59,400 Speaker 2: always feel her presence right there with me every step 999 00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:02,280 Speaker 2: of the way, holding my hand, giving me a hug, 1000 00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:05,480 Speaker 2: encouraging me to go on when I don't feel like 1001 00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:09,200 Speaker 2: I can, and She's right. Our loved ones never really 1002 00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:12,280 Speaker 2: leave us. They continue to show up again and again 1003 00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:15,160 Speaker 2: over the course of our lives, in beautiful and often 1004 00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:18,680 Speaker 2: unexpected ways. I often think back to that moment in 1005 00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:21,759 Speaker 2: Libby's kitchen, right after I had met the family in 1006 00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:25,200 Speaker 2: person for the first time. We had spotted the cardinal 1007 00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:28,200 Speaker 2: just outside the window, and Becky shared the picture she 1008 00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:31,920 Speaker 2: had snapped of two cardinals on that same branch months earlier. 1009 00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:35,879 Speaker 2: It seemed too meaningful to be just a stroke of serendipity. 1010 00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:39,520 Speaker 2: In the years since, I've seen more cardinals than ever before, 1011 00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:43,480 Speaker 2: or maybe I just noticed them more whenever they are around, 1012 00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:47,360 Speaker 2: Usually they visit alone or in pairs, though if I'm lucky, 1013 00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:51,439 Speaker 2: sometimes I see three sitting together. My son and daughter 1014 00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:53,960 Speaker 2: still get excited whenever they see them land on the 1015 00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:57,120 Speaker 2: tree right outside of our back door. Whether or not 1016 00:56:57,200 --> 00:56:59,640 Speaker 2: the cardinals we saw that day in Libby's kitchen were 1017 00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:03,360 Speaker 2: visit from heaven, I take comfort in remembering the sweet 1018 00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:07,120 Speaker 2: serenity of those small crimson birds. Huddled together to share 1019 00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:10,440 Speaker 2: a moment of warmth before stretching their wings wide and 1020 00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:14,280 Speaker 2: soaring off, side by side into the sky above, ready 1021 00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:15,720 Speaker 2: to greet the day. 1022 00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:18,920 Speaker 1: I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is Zones Heaven