Speaker 1: Atlanta. Guess what the good Moms are coming to your
Speaker 1: city on April twenty six. We're pulling up at the
Speaker 1: Black Effect Podcast Festival.
Speaker 2: That's right, We'll be hitting the stage with other hot
Speaker 2: podcasts like R and B, Money, Trap Nerds, Naked Sports,
Speaker 2: and Sarah Jakes.
Speaker 1: And if you've ever been to a Good Mom's Bad
Speaker 1: Choices show, you know it gets real, real bad and
Speaker 1: we have some special guests. So I'm so excited to
Speaker 1: meet our Atlanta tribe. Make sure you pull up April
Speaker 1: twenty six to the Black Effect Podcast Festival and get
Speaker 1: your tickets at Black Effect dot Com Slash Podcast Festival.
Speaker 1: See you there, hey, tribe. Happy Sexual Assault Awareness and
Speaker 1: Prevention Month. This episode is due for trigger warning. We
Speaker 1: are getting into some deep topics about sexual assault sexual
Speaker 1: abuse and we wanted to brief you before watching this episode.
Speaker 1: I encourage you to listen. It's very informative, it's very honest,
Speaker 1: and hopefully helpful.
Speaker 3: Once upon a time was a good old traditional housewife.
Speaker 3: Cod She cleaned and cared for her children and the
Speaker 3: man of the house, and of course she didn't talk back.
Speaker 3: She was both obeat, hint and soft by nature. She
Speaker 3: was a good woman who always made good choice.
Speaker 1: We're good Mom's bad choices too, single mom who said
Speaker 1: fuck the patriarchy, shared all their bad choices and found
Speaker 1: out they were so bad after all, we're experts.
Speaker 4: Overshares and your new besties.
Speaker 1: Sit back and enjoy the ride.
Speaker 5: I can.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to good Mom's bad choices. I'm Erica and
Speaker 1: I'm Mila. Happy Wednesday, Happy hump Day, y'all. How you doing,
Speaker 1: I'm pretty good. You look cute. Thanks, We're giving Tantrica
Speaker 1: boss bitch. You know I had a client today. Did
Speaker 1: you wear this singer? Client? No?
Speaker 2: But feeling the energy because I put this on. I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna put a blazer on. Yeah, I'm having a
Speaker 2: good week. I'm just you know, seasons are switching. I
Speaker 2: had a good weekend with Luna. This weekend, we went
Speaker 2: to the We went to Alvin Ailey Ballet. It was
Speaker 2: her first time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I saw. I'm so mad. I like, when I
Speaker 1: was looking online the tickets were so expensive they probably
Speaker 1: didn't sell out and so we could just walk in.
Speaker 2: No, what happened is I bought them online. I was
Speaker 2: going I was gonna drop off to my mom because
Speaker 2: I wanted her to experience it. And then I was like,
Speaker 2: let me just fucking go. And I found a ticket.
Speaker 2: It was it was too good to be true. It
Speaker 2: was Orchestra for sixty eight dollars. And then I got
Speaker 2: there and they're like, oh, stub Hub's been scamming people
Speaker 2: all day, so we've been giving. We've been selling tickets
Speaker 2: for twenty five dollars. So I'm like, she's like, you
Speaker 2: can just you can like dispute it, and I was like, fine,
Speaker 2: I'll just buy the ticket twenty five dollars though, but
Speaker 2: it was on the balcony. I saw everything as beautiful.
Speaker 2: I was tired as fuck.
Speaker 1: Though.
Speaker 2: We left like a park birthday party. They drove two
Speaker 2: hours to get to. Then I went to the ballet.
Speaker 2: But at the end we saw Angela Bassett and my
Speaker 2: mom was like, and then I was like, and then
Speaker 2: she was like, and then we were all like, and
Speaker 2: then here goes Linda. That's the girl from Wakanda. I
Speaker 2: was like, girl, that's Tina Turner. I was like, look
Speaker 2: at the fucking age difference up in here talking about
Speaker 2: that's the lady from Wakanda.
Speaker 1: I mean, well, that's the beauty of her career. It's
Speaker 1: spanned so many fucking years. She's been so many different.
Speaker 4: Characters, right, we're all star striking, like meaningful.
Speaker 1: To different people at different stages in their life. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was like pretty.
Speaker 2: I felt like I saw a black royalty. You did,
Speaker 2: so that was like walt. Yeah, me and my mom
Speaker 2: and Luna were all hype.
Speaker 4: So it was really cute.
Speaker 2: And then yesterday we watched Mawana too, which wasn't as
Speaker 2: good because it's not as you know, Lynna Mmanuel Miranda
Speaker 2: didn't do the music. I only know that because Linda
Speaker 2: told me. And and then we rode eight mile eight
Speaker 2: mile bike ride eight miles.
Speaker 1: You and Luna, where the fuck did you go? Didn't
Speaker 1: Elle's house? So you drove, You rode there and rode back. Wow,
Speaker 1: it wasn't that bad. She was a bit proud of her. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she was like it's hot.
Speaker 4: I was like, it's gonna get hotter, so you might
Speaker 4: as well.
Speaker 1: Did she like stop for waters and ice.
Speaker 2: We stopped for one water and you know, I pumped
Speaker 2: her tire, poor thing. I think she was trying really hard,
Speaker 2: but the fucking tire was a little flat. So I
Speaker 2: was like, I was like, is that better. She's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: much better.
Speaker 1: I'm like, canm. I'm happy obstacles, You're like, get it together.
Speaker 1: Her first fucking ten mile ride.
Speaker 2: She's had a long one before. We were like in
Speaker 2: the street, like in the bike lane too. I'm like
Speaker 2: looking behind me, like, please, God, nothing happened to her.
Speaker 2: I'm fucking biking her eight miles.
Speaker 1: Oh my god. It was fun.
Speaker 4: We had a good time.
Speaker 2: Then we went to dinner and she told me secrets
Speaker 2: from her school and I was like, perfect group, best friends,
Speaker 2: tell me everything.
Speaker 1: So we had a good We had a good weekend,
Speaker 1: so I'm happy. That's cool. How was your weekend? It
Speaker 1: was good. We saw Cleo Soul so that was great.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we did that too. I had the weekend
Speaker 2: of the arts. Yeah that was great.
Speaker 1: And then what did I do the day after that
Speaker 1: birthday party? The birthday party? I drove two hours the
Speaker 1: birthday party, shout out to Nearland, Happy birthday, Julia, We
Speaker 1: love you. I lived for as fuck, so everywhere I
Speaker 1: go is going to be that. And then yesterday I
Speaker 1: did something that I've been wanting to do and I'm
Speaker 1: happy to share that I finally did it. Me talk
Speaker 1: about this on our episode with Nicole Russell generational silence
Speaker 1: about interviewing my grandmother and my great aunt and my mom,
Speaker 1: and so I finally did it. How was it? It
Speaker 1: was really good. I'm very drained today though, like I
Speaker 1: didn't I know, like I know that like I take
Speaker 1: on people take on energy. But I was literally sitting
Speaker 1: on the floor in the middle of all of them
Speaker 1: as they're sharing and talking, and it was good. My
Speaker 1: grandmother really came like I asked her, like when I started,
Speaker 1: I opened up the space and was like, oh, this
Speaker 1: is a safe space. Please just be as honest as
Speaker 1: you can. And she was. She was very, very honest.
Speaker 1: She shared things with me that I've never heard her
Speaker 1: say before, and it was just interesting, Like I had
Speaker 1: I had spoken about this the other day that I
Speaker 1: listened to this episode with mel Robbins and doctor Gabor
Speaker 1: and he was talking about epigenetics and all the childhood trauma,
Speaker 1: and he was also talking about how siblings have different
Speaker 1: experiences in the same household and a lot of times
Speaker 1: siblings are kind of discarded and being like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: like I don't you were raised by the same parents,
Speaker 1: Like what the fuck are you talking about? And this
Speaker 1: was a prime example of being in the same household. Obviously,
Speaker 1: my grandmother and my great aunt are nine years apart,
Speaker 1: so they definitely got differentis of they got different parents,
Speaker 1: they had different experiences, and it was challenging for my aunt,
Speaker 1: who was younger than my grandmother, to hear my grandmother
Speaker 1: talk about their father because that's not the experience that
Speaker 1: she had with her father. My grandmother had a very
Speaker 1: traumatic childhood with her dad, and my great aunt had
Speaker 1: a really great experience with her dad. So interesting, So
Speaker 1: I saw her getting emotional and like, you know, she said,
Speaker 1: like I don't want to sit here and defend him
Speaker 1: because I can't because that's not my experience. All I
Speaker 1: can say is like it breaks my heart that you've
Speaker 1: that you had that experience and that wasn't my experience.
Speaker 1: But I do feel like this like urge to defend him,
Speaker 1: but I'm not going to. So it was it got heavy,
Speaker 1: It got heavy, and I realized I got to do more.
Speaker 1: Like there was we were sat there for three hours.
Speaker 1: It was three hours and still and still like I
Speaker 1: feel like I got to like I didn't even get
Speaker 1: to like the like to meet of it. You know.
Speaker 1: It was like I was really trying to document their
Speaker 1: journey from like New Mexico, Mexico to California, and like
Speaker 1: also weave in like what was going on during those times.
Speaker 1: And I just I know now that like I need
Speaker 1: to sit with my grandmother one on one too and
Speaker 1: talk to her, because it's a little bit different when
Speaker 1: you're sitting in front of your daughter and everybody's there.
Speaker 1: So I feel really inspired to continue the conversation. My
Speaker 1: grandmother was like, please don't share this on the TV screens. No, Graham,
Speaker 1: not the TV on the TV screen does She's like,
Speaker 1: this is yesterday's conversation. Was so stupid and silly. Say that, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's so stupid. I don't know why you want to
Speaker 1: know any of that stuff, but just don't share it
Speaker 1: on the TV screens, okay. And I was like, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to share it, Tony. I'll only share it
Speaker 1: with your permission. And I don't really have a desire
Speaker 1: to share it. I really just did this for my family. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So anyway, this morning I woke up. I was bitch.
Speaker 1: I was so tired. I tried to wake up like
Speaker 1: four times and I could not. So this morning I
Speaker 1: finally got to the shower I saged. I was like,
Speaker 1: maybe I need a sage something mother fucking energy off
Speaker 1: of me. That didn't work, but I feel I'm here,
Speaker 1: I'm sitting in our in our seat, and I feel better.
Speaker 1: At least you did it. I did it.
Speaker 2: It's recorded, you can always reference it back. You can
Speaker 2: keep doing it and make it easier the second time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have.
Speaker 2: One great aunt left. I'm like, do I need to
Speaker 2: go to Philly and like this one she's Jehovah. I
Speaker 2: don't know how open she's going to be. I feel
Speaker 2: like all the Jehovah's are cool.
Speaker 1: I'd be surprised how much people are waiting to share.
Speaker 2: Okay, thanks, Yeah, so now I feel I didn't even
Speaker 2: think about her as an option, but she's like my
Speaker 2: last oldest living relative. So I have to so thank
Speaker 2: you for the inspiration and I'm glad that you did it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's important. Well anyway, you guys, we have a
Speaker 1: special guest here today. I'm really excited because this month,
Speaker 1: if you didn't know, a sexual assault awareness and prevention month.
Speaker 1: And I met this beautiful woman that say next to
Speaker 1: me a few years ago at the Model Experience. Shout
Speaker 1: out to Ashley Runway and I was hosting a panel
Speaker 1: and we connected and I've been watching her journey over
Speaker 1: the last six months and I'm so inspired by you.
Speaker 1: So I want to welcome to the show. Lisa J. Phillips,
Speaker 1: who is the host of From now On podcast, which
Speaker 1: is a podcast that shares the shares people that have
Speaker 1: been victims of sexual assault within the entertainment industry and
Speaker 1: the arts and the creator in film, TV, sports, Welcome
Speaker 1: to the show.
Speaker 6: Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you for coming.
Speaker 6: Super excited to be here.
Speaker 1: So I was super inspired by just the work that
Speaker 1: you've been doing. It's been I've been seeing all the
Speaker 1: clips on Instagram and you're really going there, like with
Speaker 1: a lot of with your story, which we'll get into,
Speaker 1: and just all the people that are sharing and speaking
Speaker 1: out about their these horrible experiences that they've had, and
Speaker 1: I think that so many women and people have not
Speaker 1: just in the entertainment industry, but just in the wind
Speaker 1: just living and existing. So yeah, can you give us
Speaker 1: like a little bit of insight and to like your
Speaker 1: journey to the podcast. I know that you had a
Speaker 1: whole career before being a podcaster as a model and
Speaker 1: an agent. I think or is that what you're doing. Okay,
Speaker 1: so yeah, maybe tell us a little bit about your
Speaker 1: journey into your podcast.
Speaker 6: Well you just said it. You were like, you know,
Speaker 6: people just want to share. You'd be surprised of how
Speaker 6: much people want to share when she was talking about
Speaker 6: your grandmother. And that's what I found, is that people
Speaker 6: connect over sharing those stories. And so, like you said,
Speaker 6: I was in the fashion business since I was a teenager,
Speaker 6: travel all around the world and loved it, and I
Speaker 6: felt like I built myself up to a certain level
Speaker 6: as an agent and then a manager and opened my
Speaker 6: own business and all that stuff, and I'm just like,
Speaker 6: I just want to do something that just means something
Speaker 6: that's something that his career ageous and brave, and just
Speaker 6: something where I can just step out of this person
Speaker 6: who I've been and just become somebody a lot more
Speaker 6: powerful because I knew it was in me and I
Speaker 6: had this story that I've been telling little bits by bits,
Speaker 6: and then everyone's doing podcasting now, so I was like,
Speaker 6: I just want to do a podcast. That's the way
Speaker 6: I want to start sharing my story. But I felt
Speaker 6: like I needed to share in a way that felt
Speaker 6: comfortable and I felt supported with another survivor to share
Speaker 6: as well. So I started this podcast where it's called Fromenolon,
Speaker 6: where I share my story, but I also open up conversations,
Speaker 6: deeper conversations about other survivors abuse and assaults that have
Speaker 6: happened to them on their way of building their careers
Speaker 6: or you know, ambitious women, they come up against powerful
Speaker 6: men and a lot of times, you know, we are
Speaker 6: in situations where it's compromising and and you know, assaults
Speaker 6: happen or abuse and then.
Speaker 1: Feel powerless and just and so for our audience, so
Speaker 1: that you guys know Lisa, she is a survivor of
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein. And you know, Jeffrey committed suicide in twenty nineteen,
Speaker 1: I think in suicide or whatever. Yeah, suicide is that
Speaker 1: is Do you not believe that he committed suicide?
Speaker 4: You believe somebody killed him in prison?
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean that's what I believe. Yeah, sure, just
Speaker 6: what I think.
Speaker 1: I mean, he probably had a lot of people's secrets
Speaker 1: on his oh right, right on his Yeah.
Speaker 6: And there was the whole basis of Jeffrey was that
Speaker 6: he was recording everything on powerful people, so you knew
Speaker 6: everyone's secrets.
Speaker 4: What a cynical little crazy fuck?
Speaker 1: How did it all start? Like I because I think
Speaker 1: some people think like it's sexual assault is like one way.
Speaker 1: I know, it's very layered and it's nuanced. So how
Speaker 1: what was your journey into this, this situation with Jeffrey Epstein.
Speaker 6: Well, I just think like nowadays, like people are learning
Speaker 6: about assault because everyone's talking about it on a podcasts
Speaker 6: or being educated more so. I mean we're talking about
Speaker 6: twenty years ago now, you know when this happened. So
Speaker 6: I didn't know anything about this type of abuse or
Speaker 6: even what to look out for. I was naive and
Speaker 6: just thought everyone was so I want to help you out.
Speaker 6: Of course they want to help me out, and I
Speaker 6: just didn't know. You know, when you're younger, who do
Speaker 6: you trust?
Speaker 1: You can trust? Yeah? And then you meet like a wealthy,
Speaker 1: powerful man who's charming and nice and listens and thoughtful.
Speaker 1: And I think that's like a lot of the grooming
Speaker 1: that happens where it's confusing for people, where they're like, wait,
Speaker 1: did I participate in this? Like is it my fault?
Speaker 1: Like I think I was reading I was reading some
Speaker 1: stats on sexual assault and I was actually fucking astonished.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, you'll be shocked.
Speaker 1: And I want to just read through some of this
Speaker 1: stuff for our audience before we get into this, because
Speaker 1: I had no idea some of these stats. One in
Speaker 1: five women and one in seventy one men will be
Speaker 1: raped at some point in their lives.
Speaker 4: One in five compared to one in seventy WHOA, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Eighty one percent of women and forty three percent of
Speaker 1: men report experiencing some sort of sexual harassment during their lifetime.
Speaker 1: And like we were talking about this, I was like,
Speaker 1: eighty one seems low. Yeah, Actually, I feel like ninety
Speaker 1: nine point nine percent of women, approximately one in three
Speaker 1: women and one in six men have experienced some sort
Speaker 1: of sexual violence other than rape. And this is the
Speaker 1: stuff that really was crazy is around sixty eight percent
Speaker 1: of sexual assaults are not reported to law enforcement, and
Speaker 1: ninety eight percent of rapists will never spend a jail,
Speaker 1: a day in jail or prison, like ninety eight percent.
Speaker 6: Well, most of them get away with it because they
Speaker 6: don't report it, and there's so much shame around it.
Speaker 6: First of all, you don't report it, and you have
Speaker 6: to do it pretty quickly after to do the rape kit,
Speaker 6: and a lot of times, you know, you just have
Speaker 6: so much shame. Most people report it or start talking
Speaker 6: about it six or seven years later, Right, that's the average, Wow,
Speaker 6: many years later, And it's usually because you hear someone
Speaker 6: else's story or you watch, like, you know, a TV
Speaker 6: show and you see like the similar dialogue. Wait a second,
Speaker 6: that happened to me?
Speaker 2: Right, you have to almost like see it played out
Speaker 2: to understand that it's actually experienced that well.
Speaker 6: I mean, I knew what happened to me, you know,
Speaker 6: in twenty twenty, sorry, in two thousand. I knew what
Speaker 6: happened to me. I was aware of it, but you
Speaker 6: have shame, you suppress it, you don't know who to
Speaker 6: talk to about it. And it wasn't until you know,
Speaker 6: women started speaking out about Jeffrey Epstein that I felt
Speaker 6: comfortablely be like, okay, what is second, that's what happened
Speaker 6: to me, and then wanting to reach out to them
Speaker 6: and talk about it and see where our stories kind
Speaker 6: of lined up. And you know, all the stories accord
Speaker 6: with this guy were all the same, whether you were
Speaker 6: underage or not.
Speaker 1: And the gay and they were in this in these
Speaker 1: stats that were saying that most assault happens between the
Speaker 1: ages of eighteen and thirty four, how old were you
Speaker 1: when eighteen thirty four? How old were you when you
Speaker 1: started when this started happening to you?
Speaker 6: Twenty twenty one, twenty.
Speaker 1: Twenty two, that twenty or twenty one years old? Yes, okay,
Speaker 1: And I was reading you know, when I was reading
Speaker 1: your your story about how you met him, which was
Speaker 1: I think you guys you were you had to shoot
Speaker 1: in the Virgin Islands and then a friend of yours
Speaker 1: invited you to his private island or something, or his
Speaker 1: island he was renting.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, that's so crazy about it because most people
Speaker 6: who were invited into Jeffrey Epstein's web were through Gallaine Maxwell,
Speaker 6: the underage girls in Florida, or you knew him or
Speaker 6: introduced through another friend. That's just the way he operated.
Speaker 6: And was like, oh, hey, your first friend, you know,
Speaker 6: I was a mentor of mine, Come meet him. But
Speaker 6: I was just on a photo shoot in the islands,
Speaker 6: right I was just minding my own business and a
Speaker 6: photo shoot. And the other young model was like, hey,
Speaker 6: we have a day off. I have a friend who
Speaker 6: owns an island right here. Do you want to go?
Speaker 6: And I'm thinking, well, I just want to get away
Speaker 6: from the photographer of them want to shoot with right,
Speaker 6: because he's the photographer, was also like creeping into my
Speaker 6: bed at night, you know, and I was just like
Speaker 6: so freaked out. And he was a younger, like hot photographer,
Speaker 6: but it wasn't it was still right. And so when
Speaker 6: she invited me, I was like, yeah, I want to
Speaker 6: get away from him, not knowing that another predator's.
Speaker 1: Out to a whole other, whole.
Speaker 6: Different type of predator. So yeah, and we just took
Speaker 6: a boat over to his island and just thought I
Speaker 6: was just meeting like this wealthy guy who kind of
Speaker 6: just kept to himself and you know, played in the pool.
Speaker 6: But I observed some things when I was on the
Speaker 6: island that probably wasn't supposed to see, and he introduced
Speaker 6: me to someone who just had walked up, who later
Speaker 6: ended up being these young girls were saying this man
Speaker 6: had assaulted them.
Speaker 1: You know, they said that during the at the island,
Speaker 1: they told you this.
Speaker 6: Well, he's part of royalty in England, so you know,
Speaker 6: I just saw some things that had happened. And then
Speaker 6: later on when I when I got home, he relentlessly
Speaker 6: called me over and over and over, and I, in
Speaker 6: hindsight think that the reason why he did was because
Speaker 6: I saw things and he wanted to kind of keep
Speaker 6: me in his orbit.
Speaker 2: To make sure you were good, Like good, did the
Speaker 2: girls that you the other girls that you saw there,
Speaker 2: or did they were like obviously young?
Speaker 4: Were You're like, god, they look even younger than me.
Speaker 6: Well, no, because I was young.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're like, I'm so mature, And.
Speaker 6: Do we ever do we ever say old? Are you elder?
Speaker 6: I just assume we're all young, right, So I just
Speaker 6: assumed they were around the same age as me. Yeah,
Speaker 6: I didn't know at the time, or even if I
Speaker 6: had asked them. Thember was a while ago. Maybe they
Speaker 6: said they were older. I don't know, but I didn't
Speaker 6: know they were or fifteen, six or seventeen at that time.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think all girls are kind of like young.
Speaker 2: First of all, we're like we're groomed by society at
Speaker 2: just immediately, like we were literally groomed by society by
Speaker 2: like boys will be boys or you.
Speaker 4: Know, older men.
Speaker 2: You know, like there's just like an an an understanding
Speaker 2: that you just be quiet and you show up and
Speaker 2: like you smile and nod and like if you're here,
Speaker 2: then you're lucky. Exactly you're lucky and you're mature, and
Speaker 2: just keep it hushy, like.
Speaker 1: They want you to feel like chosen that everyone gets
Speaker 1: to come here, or if someone's handsy with you, it's
Speaker 1: because you're you're beautiful and that's normal and like, well.
Speaker 6: That's a sense of power. Yeah, So anyone in the
Speaker 6: music industry, the modeling business, fashion, arts, entertainment, sports, whenever
Speaker 6: you have that power dynamic, especially when they're ten, fifteen,
Speaker 6: twenty years older than you, it's always this power dynamic.
Speaker 6: So you you are, as a woman, usually just kind
Speaker 6: of quiet. You kind of go along with things because
Speaker 6: you're scared to speak out, you know, or if someone
Speaker 6: touches you, you don't know how to react in that moment.
Speaker 2: You were not trained on that smiling and keeping it
Speaker 2: cute because if we, like if we blew up, then
Speaker 2: you'd be causing a scene and that'd be crazy.
Speaker 4: And then why are you dressed like that?
Speaker 1: Why are you there?
Speaker 6: Exactly? And they also play on your dreams, so a
Speaker 6: big one is okay, Like Jeffrey was like that with me,
Speaker 6: what do you want to do? Like what are you?
Speaker 6: What's your big dream? And you know, I had super
Speaker 6: big dreams and I was ambitious at that time, so
Speaker 6: they play on that ambition, right, and so he kind
Speaker 6: of used that, you know later on, but he was
Speaker 6: asking those questions in the beginning, and I thought, oh
Speaker 6: my gosh, this man who cares about me. He's asking
Speaker 6: questions and most men don't ask you about anything about yourself,
Speaker 6: and so when someone does, it's like, white a second.
Speaker 6: They care about me, you know, in a certain way
Speaker 6: where you feel like you drop your guard you feel
Speaker 6: feel like welcomed and special, special, special.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: When I was reading, I was reading an article that
Speaker 1: you I think it was on The Guardian where you'd
Speaker 1: shared your story about the girl that brought you to
Speaker 1: the island and how you know, she had made it
Speaker 1: very like this is normal, like she didn't like really
Speaker 1: explain anything to you, and how he invited you to
Speaker 1: to give him him a massage and she just was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: let's do it. And I know that in the article
Speaker 1: it shared that you shared that you obviously felt uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: but you went through with.
Speaker 6: It because well, it's on the island, you are not
Speaker 6: island alone and all myself. Yeah, and I remember this
Speaker 6: man had kind of groomed me for the last two hours, right,
Speaker 6: I felt comfortable. It was amazing.
Speaker 1: So this was like day one.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well yeah, we went over to the island and
Speaker 6: we spent like the day there and this was at dinner.
Speaker 6: So at dinner for two hours and hanging out, he
Speaker 6: focused his attention on me, asking me tons of questions
Speaker 6: about myself and and I have kind of an interesting
Speaker 6: past because my father was in the Air Force, so
Speaker 6: I grew up half my life in Europe, so you know,
Speaker 6: I had lived in England. And at that moment, you know,
Speaker 6: a prince walks up. So it was like, wow, you know,
Speaker 6: I have really important people on this island, and.
Speaker 1: This princess I think I was reading recently, it's finally
Speaker 1: like come to light. It's Prince Andrew like that. He
Speaker 1: has a deep, dark past of this and it's finally
Speaker 1: being exposed. And I don't know if he's ever going
Speaker 1: to go to jail for it. Probably not.
Speaker 6: But the girls don't want to speak out. The women
Speaker 6: now don't want to speak out, right because you get shamed,
Speaker 6: and you know it would probably scared too, And yeah,
Speaker 6: most people are scared. You don't want to go up
Speaker 6: against that type of power. But I mean that this
Speaker 6: power has been taken away because he's been shamed in
Speaker 6: many different ways since. So I started speaking out because
Speaker 6: I had a girlfriend after I came home from the
Speaker 6: island and stuff, who was told by Jeffrey to go
Speaker 6: into a room with this, said Prince. So when I
Speaker 6: started speaking out in two thousand, it was for her
Speaker 6: to say, wait a minute, I saw things, I know things,
Speaker 6: you know. So I was trying to like just speak
Speaker 6: out for her, not even knowing so much about No, no, no,
Speaker 6: I didn't really want to talk about me. I wasn't
Speaker 6: ready yet, you know. So it came about because I
Speaker 6: saw him on the island when I was there in
Speaker 6: two thousand. I saw another thing that happened with him,
Speaker 6: and so that's what I was speaking out about.
Speaker 2: Not even your own stuff, No, like this this is
Speaker 2: more important, not my own thing.
Speaker 6: For us that you know, it wasn't. And remember I
Speaker 6: was also so brainwashed after that to think that this
Speaker 6: was a good person.
Speaker 1: So even after that experience, you felt like you had
Speaker 1: a good time there, even though like you had an
Speaker 1: uncomfortable time, have a good time. Oh maybe not a
Speaker 1: good time, but like it was in it was there
Speaker 1: was something that brought you back enough to there was
Speaker 1: a grooming had gotten had groomed enough for you to.
Speaker 6: Say, well, well i'll explain what happened. Okay, it's interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 6: So yeah, So I was abused on that island that
Speaker 6: night with the girl in a kind of a threeesome
Speaker 6: situation where it was just a massage. Come in, you know,
Speaker 6: Jeffer's ready for his massage, and we did a massage.
Speaker 6: It was a real he did like massages, but that's
Speaker 6: how he kind of opened it up, you know, lures
Speaker 6: you in. It's just a massage, and then the massage
Speaker 6: can turn into assault. So that's what happened on the island.
Speaker 6: And then I went home disgusted and I hated this man, right,
Speaker 6: so I didn't want anything to do with him. But
Speaker 6: like I said, in hindsight, I think from what I
Speaker 6: saw on the island, he and his women who worked
Speaker 6: the secretaries were constantly calling me every single week, sometimes
Speaker 6: twice or three times a week, and it was almost
Speaker 6: like harassment because I kept saying, why are you calling me?
Speaker 6: I'm not going to go see that man. And then
Speaker 6: Jeffrey called me one day and he said Lisa. I answered,
Speaker 6: and he said, Lisa, I remember what you told me
Speaker 6: on the island is that you wanted to be a
Speaker 6: Ford model. And I'm like yeah, and he's like, yeah,
Speaker 6: well I'm friends with Katie Ford, and I'm like Katie Ford,
Speaker 6: like she was the owner of Ford Model Agency at
Speaker 6: that time forod models, and so I'm just like yeah,
Speaker 6: and he's like, well, I know her and I think
Speaker 6: that you that she would like you, and I want
Speaker 6: you to go meet with her. And so that was
Speaker 6: it for me. That was it because that was my
Speaker 6: big goal and dream. Oh yeah, I started modeling at
Speaker 6: fifteen and sixteen. I had already been working at a
Speaker 6: high level and worked all around Europe and South Africa
Speaker 6: and went to Greece. You know, I was working at
Speaker 6: a very good level. But that was the agency, the
Speaker 6: dream agency in two thousand that I want to do with.
Speaker 6: And on the island he asked me, he said what
Speaker 6: was your big goal? And I said, well, I want
Speaker 6: to be a Ford model. I'm an actresses, I want
Speaker 6: to all these things, but I want to be a
Speaker 6: Ford model. And I don't know if I don't know
Speaker 6: if he mentioned he knew Katie Ford back then, but
Speaker 6: when he called me up on the phone four months later,
Speaker 6: that was just it for me, And that's kind of
Speaker 6: how it happens the grooming process. They do something big
Speaker 6: for you, or if you want to be a singer,
Speaker 6: it's like I know some and so right, So that
Speaker 6: was kind of it for me. And after that, I
Speaker 6: just went and I met with Katie Ford and from
Speaker 6: there signed up with the agency and I was with
Speaker 6: Ford Malling Agency for over ten years after that.
Speaker 1: And after that? What was your relationship with him after that?
Speaker 1: How was that? How did it did he feel? Did
Speaker 1: he make I'm just wondering because I think the abusers,
Speaker 1: they use and they yield their power in so many
Speaker 1: different ways. Some people will be like remember that thing
Speaker 1: I did for you, or they just keep giving you
Speaker 1: things to keep you coming in. Right.
Speaker 6: Well, we have to differentiate between these types of master
Speaker 6: manipulators and abusers and the ones that just want to
Speaker 6: be who go up to girls and like, I can
Speaker 6: help you with your singing career, your podcast into all
Speaker 6: this stuff, and they haven't really, they don't have any
Speaker 6: way they're really going to do it, or even they
Speaker 6: may know people in the business, but they just really
Speaker 6: want one thing from you, right. I Mean, there's so
Speaker 6: many of those types of men. Let's say they're men,
Speaker 6: because most are men you know, in you know, Hollywood
Speaker 6: and in the music business and arts and entertainment. So
Speaker 6: there are men like that. Then you have these men
Speaker 6: who are really good at grooming you and making you
Speaker 6: trust them and making it seem like they have alter motives,
Speaker 6: right that are just more silicious and more devious and dark.
Speaker 6: Jeffrey is in that category, right. So whatever he was
Speaker 6: doing with me was to probably keep me quiet because
Speaker 6: you know, a few years later things came out about
Speaker 6: him and he wanted to make sure that I wasn't talking.
Speaker 6: So it was to keep what I had seen quiet.
Speaker 6: And it works because when they are a person who's
Speaker 6: actually doing things for you. So he did something for
Speaker 6: me that was huge, That was huge, That was life
Speaker 6: changing for me right right at that time of my life.
Speaker 6: And so now all of a sudden, Jeffrey's a good
Speaker 6: guy in my you know, my mind. Wow, it switched.
Speaker 6: You want to why, because when I went to meet
Speaker 6: with Katie Ford, she said, I love Jeffrey. After that,
Speaker 6: he would invite you to charity events, big, you know,
Speaker 6: big charity events and things, and and after that it
Speaker 6: was like everyone loved him. Everyone talked highly about him.
Speaker 6: He was a genius. And you have to remember who
Speaker 6: we know of Jeffrey Epsteen today was not who we
Speaker 6: knew of him twenty years ago. He was a powerful person,
Speaker 6: but he wasn't a playboy. He never gave you drugs,
Speaker 6: drugs and alcohol. He wasn't a P diddy, right, He
Speaker 6: never gave you drugs and alcohol. He wasn't doing all
Speaker 6: these things where people were like, oh, don't go with
Speaker 6: p Didty party?
Speaker 7: Right know?
Speaker 6: You know, we all knew what you know Shawn Colmebs
Speaker 6: was doing back then, but with Jeffrey, it was more
Speaker 6: like on this higher level of powerful person, you know.
Speaker 6: So it was just it was just very different. And
Speaker 6: I'm a kid, like I mean.
Speaker 2: Most of all, like I think people forget, like in
Speaker 2: your early even like you don't know shit and you
Speaker 2: think you know shit, and so all you know of
Speaker 2: the world is like this person is something like huge
Speaker 2: for me.
Speaker 1: It's life changing.
Speaker 2: And so there's an admiration and the love that like
Speaker 2: in a respect that you can never like there's no
Speaker 2: there's nobody else who could probably have done that for you,
Speaker 2: and so you're just leveraging that energy and thinking like
Speaker 2: you're in debt to this person. And I think like
Speaker 2: even now when you hear like you know, the trolls
Speaker 2: on the internet and shit like that, Like the shame
Speaker 2: that people cast on victims is so crazy to me
Speaker 2: because a lot of times it's like you don't even
Speaker 2: have to be a kid to be manipulated by men.
Speaker 2: You don't even have to be you know, like like
Speaker 2: I said, like society grooms women this way, we super
Speaker 2: like sweep under the carpet, like the manipulation of men,
Speaker 2: and like how deep grooming can go into like and
Speaker 2: to grown women, you know, like it doesn't matter how
Speaker 2: old you are. You can think, you can feel empowered.
Speaker 2: You can feel like powerful and still get got because
Speaker 2: you're like, oh shit, like they just conned me real quick,
Speaker 2: and you know, charm and personality and giving people the
Speaker 2: benefit of the doubt because women have literally been trained
Speaker 2: to be to be quiet and to be you know, palatable,
Speaker 2: and to be like, oh like be nice and sweet
Speaker 2: because if you're rowdy, then no one's going to like you.
Speaker 1: If you make a big noise, no one's going to
Speaker 1: like you.
Speaker 2: So we're constantly questioning ourselves, Like damn was he being weird,
Speaker 2: that was kind of weird, that massage.
Speaker 1: Was weird, but then he did this.
Speaker 2: So then you're constantly going back and forth, Like I
Speaker 2: think we are bred in society that literally has planted
Speaker 2: seeds of us forgetting our intuition, yes, moving away from
Speaker 2: our bodies, moving away from the in like the natural
Speaker 2: indicators that something is going off and something is wrong.
Speaker 2: And so we're constantly trying to be liked and loved
Speaker 2: by people around us and not make a lot of
Speaker 2: noise and not like make a lot of trouble, and
Speaker 2: so things happen to it.
Speaker 4: Grooming happens to us easier, and like even in school like.
Speaker 2: Be quiet, raise your hand, Like there's all these like
Speaker 2: minor things that train us to shut the fuck up
Speaker 2: essentially and to go against our own bodies. And then
Speaker 2: shit like this happens, and then people are like, well,
Speaker 2: why the fuck do you do that? Well, bitch, because
Speaker 2: I love it here right.
Speaker 6: No, that's what a lot of people will say to you,
Speaker 6: like why didn't you why'd you fall for it? Why
Speaker 6: didn't you get out? Why didn't you do this? Why
Speaker 6: don't you do that? But that's the thing, like even
Speaker 6: just like the power dynamic at school, the teacher, you know,
Speaker 6: high school and college, the teacher and student. They they're
Speaker 6: holding something over you. And you find there's so much
Speaker 6: abuse actually with women with boys too in the school
Speaker 6: of coming out lately too, because you know, you have
Speaker 6: that power and you can get whatever, like flirtatious thing
Speaker 6: that you want from the student.
Speaker 2: And I guess there is a level of like uh
Speaker 2: like programming that even women are given to.
Speaker 4: Leverage our sexual our sexual power, that that.
Speaker 2: It means something that we then have some type of
Speaker 2: power over these older men, when in fact they know
Speaker 2: what the fuck they're doing, and you feel like, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm liked, I'm mature, he's choosing me. Oh this this
Speaker 2: person of statue likes me than this, and like even
Speaker 2: with the like the school dynamics, like yeah, like I
Speaker 2: think as adults we underestimate the power dynamic because you
Speaker 2: think that you're in your power, you feel empowered, but
Speaker 2: then when some shit happens and you look back, you're like, oh,
Speaker 2: what the.
Speaker 1: Fuck just happened? It can be that quick.
Speaker 6: Yeah, like you're not even aware of it until probably
Speaker 6: months or years later.
Speaker 1: I mean I think too, I mean in the industry
Speaker 1: that you're in, which is modeling. You're revered for your beauty,
Speaker 1: you revered for your body. You're yielding all of these
Speaker 1: physical qualities to book the job, to get them to
Speaker 1: buy the product, like all these things. And so then
Speaker 1: when you're actually when you're twenty years old, twenty one
Speaker 1: years old, I was like, you're still figuring out even
Speaker 1: though you've necessary, I guess, mastered in some capacity, how
Speaker 1: to yield your sexual your sexuality, I guess in a
Speaker 1: physical form. Mentally, there's still this little girl inside that
Speaker 1: still doesn't even know who she is sexually, who probably
Speaker 1: doesn't even know her body, who doesn't have the stamina
Speaker 1: the confidence to say no in those type of situations
Speaker 1: where there's like a power dynamic, and also there's a
Speaker 1: way there's also where we leave our bodies too, Like
Speaker 1: in situations we're like, okay, well it's just that one time,
Speaker 1: it's fine, and like we were having this conversation on
Speaker 1: camera where like you start to think, well, I've given
Speaker 1: my bodies, I've had sex with people for less, so
Speaker 1: it's fine. I've had that one night stand and I
Speaker 1: woke up and I was like, what the fuck did
Speaker 1: I do? And so at least I'm gonna get something
Speaker 1: from this, and then you're like not realizing how much
Speaker 1: harm you're actually doing to yourself because it was actually
Speaker 1: easier to get nothing.
Speaker 6: It's funny you say that because a lot of users
Speaker 6: will say that you'll just go with the you know,
Speaker 6: a guy your age, and it like they use abusy,
Speaker 6: So why can't you be with me when I'm actually
Speaker 6: doing something for you. You're actually gonna get something out
Speaker 6: of it, right, And then.
Speaker 4: You're like, well that's kind of true.
Speaker 2: Ye You're like, yeah, I have slept with so and
Speaker 2: so from fucking the ninth grade and he's stupid. You know,
Speaker 2: there is and there's a level like you said, like
Speaker 2: of like oh he chose me, and that means I
Speaker 2: have something special and like I'm special because I'm with
Speaker 2: Even in movies, like if you look at even like media,
Speaker 2: like older rich men are depicted as something like to
Speaker 2: be like surprized.
Speaker 6: Yeah, to be desired.
Speaker 1: When did this abuse stop?
Speaker 6: I went on for about three or four years?
Speaker 1: Okay, and what was it?
Speaker 5: Was it?
Speaker 1: You that were just like finally stopped? Likely enough is enough?
Speaker 1: I'm not going to like, well.
Speaker 6: I feel like I couldn't I couldn't never get away.
Speaker 6: You know, I just always felt like this person, like
Speaker 6: how am I supposed to just stop going to see him?
Speaker 6: Because I was also getting something out of in a
Speaker 6: way that he was like a mentor to me, and
Speaker 6: he was also this genius. So when I would go
Speaker 6: visit him, I always felt like, Wow, I just want
Speaker 6: to pick his brain. I want to learn more, you know,
Speaker 6: when he would tell me little secrets, I felt like
Speaker 6: I was like in with him, or invite myself friends
Speaker 6: to dinner parties or like charity events or Broadway shows,
Speaker 6: and was always a group of people, and I felt
Speaker 6: like I was part of it all. You know. It
Speaker 6: wasn't until it was like okay, you're ready for your
Speaker 6: massage and it's like, how do I get out of here?
Speaker 2: You know, then you feel like indebted, Yes exactly, but
Speaker 2: we got the tickets, go to the dinner, and now
Speaker 2: I'm like, fuck, Okay, I knew this was coming, and
Speaker 2: now I kind of have to do it.
Speaker 6: Well, that's how it is with all abuse, because it's
Speaker 6: always a good and bad and every because it was
Speaker 6: all bad, you would never go back right right, But
Speaker 6: it's the good. They're always even abusive relationship is always
Speaker 6: the good husband for a while fifty percent of the time,
Speaker 6: maybe even up to seventy percent of the time, and
Speaker 6: then he beats you. Right, So it's like this always
Speaker 6: this cognitive dissonance that you have in your mind. I've
Speaker 6: had that for years in other relationships too, where it's
Speaker 6: this good, this constant good that they feed you and
Speaker 6: feed you, but then they then it's.
Speaker 2: Abuse, well because they know how to, they know how
Speaker 2: to like get you really really really high and make
Speaker 2: you feel really really good, and then they snatch it
Speaker 2: from you. And then you're always trying to scramble back
Speaker 2: to this person that you once knew and this this time,
Speaker 2: and you're.
Speaker 4: Like, wait, well, where's that person?
Speaker 2: And it's almost like you're in competition with yourself because
Speaker 2: you're like, if I can if I could have got
Speaker 2: this this version of him this time, then eventually this other,
Speaker 2: this version is going to come back out, and then
Speaker 2: you're constantly like what the fuck.
Speaker 6: Yeah, And you're constantly going out and everyone's saying what
Speaker 6: an amazing person is. Everybody back then said that he
Speaker 6: was the most amazing person. I used to say it, right, so.
Speaker 1: And then like on top of this, him you're in
Speaker 1: an industry where you're constantly fighting for your life and
Speaker 1: genuinely like and I can only imagine like photographers, and
Speaker 1: just like the constant like interference and boundary crossing that
Speaker 1: you're already dealing with on top of this assault.
Speaker 6: And this like you know, so thinking it's normal.
Speaker 1: So you're just like it's like I feel it everywhere.
Speaker 6: You know, in older men and younger women. You see
Speaker 6: a lot in like parties and things like that.
Speaker 1: Still, what like now that you're stepped away and you're
Speaker 1: out of that part of your life, when you're looking
Speaker 1: back on that in those times, like, do you see
Speaker 1: like the ways in which this assault was like affecting
Speaker 1: affecting you in different ways, like the way you showed up.
Speaker 1: I don't know if like you fell into any any
Speaker 1: habits or anything for coping. What were those ways? Oh?
Speaker 6: For to suppress the memories, I would go out like
Speaker 6: I was like a socialite, a big social light back then.
Speaker 6: I would go to all the parties and the events,
Speaker 6: and you know, drink alcohol and I've used drugs, you know,
Speaker 6: and things like that, just to kind of suppress the memories,
Speaker 6: because it absolutely does work. I don't I don't advise
Speaker 6: you to do it that way, but it works in
Speaker 6: a way. I'm just like, oh, I've forgotten about.
Speaker 4: It for so long.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, you have a bad episode, you know what
Speaker 6: I mean? And then you know, something horrible happens, and
Speaker 6: then you wanted to go out drinking and partying that night.
Speaker 6: Because also on the flip side of that, you feel worthless, right,
Speaker 6: and there's a lot of shame that comes with it,
Speaker 6: and in your mind like what am I doing? How
Speaker 6: do I get out of this? And then you can't
Speaker 6: talk to people, you can't say hey.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 6: The crazy thing about that is is in the three
Speaker 6: and a half years that I knew him, it wasn't
Speaker 6: until my girlfriend came to me crying that said to me,
Speaker 6: you don't know who Jeffrey is, Like, you don't know
Speaker 6: who this man is?
Speaker 1: Like what do you mean?
Speaker 6: Because she has some different experiences and and she's just like,
Speaker 6: you know, he made me do something that was really awful.
Speaker 6: You know, he made her go into a room in
Speaker 6: his house and have sex with someone, and he made
Speaker 6: her do it. And after that she was like, who
Speaker 6: are you? Like, why would you make me do that?
Speaker 6: And remember I remember he's recording everything, like filming, filming
Speaker 6: as cameras everywhere in a room in his house in
Speaker 6: his Upper East Side biggest mansion, or a townhouse in Manhattan,
Speaker 6: and he's filming everything, every room, everything that goes on.
Speaker 1: So people know that they are being filmed.
Speaker 6: I mean, we knew there were cameras in there, but
Speaker 6: probably not the men that are going in rare and
Speaker 6: probably didn't know because I mean, the girls are young girls,
Speaker 6: and if they're not under age, a younger girl, let's
Speaker 6: say twenty four and under, I would say that's about
Speaker 6: the age range. You know, they're not doing it for fun.
Speaker 6: They're not doing because they want to go sleep with
Speaker 6: the prince or go to sleep with this guy or
Speaker 6: this fat lawyer or this like, you know, whatever it
Speaker 6: is that they're disgusting some of these men, but he's
Speaker 6: making them do that, do this as the women that
Speaker 6: have come out and spoken out about it, and it's
Speaker 6: awful because he's using you, right, he's making you feel
Speaker 6: like I'm doing all these things for you, but he's
Speaker 6: using you. So that that didn't happen to me. That
Speaker 6: happened to my best friend at the time, and after
Speaker 6: she told me that, I was like, what do you
Speaker 6: mean he made you go into a room and have
Speaker 6: sex with this guy?
Speaker 5: You know?
Speaker 6: Said, I didn't understand it because that was getting so
Speaker 6: much darker.
Speaker 1: Than what I thought it was. I thought it was
Speaker 1: just light. You know.
Speaker 6: You think it's light because you see these things happen
Speaker 6: parties and you know lots of people who maybe flirt
Speaker 6: with somebody or maybe even have sex with them to
Speaker 6: you know, get a movie roll or get this or
Speaker 6: get that so that you know that kind of stuff happens.
Speaker 6: But when it's on a darker level where he's taking
Speaker 6: these women and introducing you to these older, powerful men
Speaker 6: who still the list has not come out.
Speaker 1: Right do you think that list will ever come out?
Speaker 6: All they did was release a list who showed up
Speaker 6: at his parties in that island. Who cares Oprah or
Speaker 6: whoever showed up doesn't mean they know anything that's going
Speaker 6: on right right right, So the list know the powerful men,
Speaker 6: the ones that I know and the ones that my
Speaker 6: friends know about, have never come out.
Speaker 2: Because they're paying big bucks to make sure that shit
Speaker 2: never comes out because the video someone has these videos
Speaker 2: store never. People are getting paid off majorly not to
Speaker 2: release that shit.
Speaker 6: Well, the most powerful and wealthiest people in America, so
Speaker 6: it's never going to come out.
Speaker 1: So when that happened, that was when when your friend
Speaker 1: shared this with you. What did that do? What did
Speaker 1: that do to you?
Speaker 6: Well, it just was like quite a second. Well first
Speaker 6: I was just like scared death. But I went to
Speaker 6: go see Jeffrey after that and kind of confronted him
Speaker 6: because I wanted to get out of like this whole
Speaker 6: web I was in with him. And after that, I mean,
Speaker 6: she told me I would think March or April, and
Speaker 6: I had left New York by May and moved to
Speaker 6: Los Angeles. It was two thousand and.
Speaker 1: Four, and that was the biggest reason why.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I lovet because of him with.
Speaker 1: That conversation, like when he when you brought that to him.
Speaker 6: Well, he just the one thing I've always remembered. He said,
Speaker 6: I like to have things on people.
Speaker 1: I like to have things on people.
Speaker 6: So it was just getting so dark.
Speaker 1: And he meant that to you as well, like he
Speaker 1: was threatening you.
Speaker 6: There's something that happened that day that I've never really
Speaker 6: talked about that went pretty dark. And after that I
Speaker 6: knew what kind of person he was. But years up
Speaker 6: until then, I was always saying, Deffrey's amazing, He's great.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 6: My parents' house was not that far from his home
Speaker 6: that he owned owned in New Mexico. My parents lived
Speaker 6: in New Mexico at the time, and so you know,
Speaker 6: I would go to his house and like ride horses.
Speaker 6: He wasn't there, you know, he was like part of
Speaker 6: Like he would send gifts to my parents' house. In
Speaker 6: the little Black Book that came out, my parents' number
Speaker 6: was in it, you know, So like I knew him,
Speaker 6: and I always thought, like, Okay, I have things that
Speaker 6: I don't want to talk about. But he was also
Speaker 6: part of my life and a mentor and a really
Speaker 6: good mentor of you know things that he really taught
Speaker 6: me about life and business. And he started the businesses
Speaker 6: of many of my friends. He put them through college,
Speaker 6: He bought computers. He introduced a lot of friends to
Speaker 6: their husbands. Like this is a man who did major
Speaker 6: things for young women. So a lot of people loved
Speaker 6: and adored him during that time, and he was part
Speaker 6: of things. So when it came out in two thousand
Speaker 6: and six that he and Gallaine Maxwell were actually abusing
Speaker 6: underage girls, that's when everybody flipped the script on Jeffrey Epstein.
Speaker 6: It was after we found out about underage because the
Speaker 6: over age eighteen to twenty five, I mean everybody, that's fine,
Speaker 6: and we're doing that right, those kinds of things, so
Speaker 6: it wasn't unheard of. So what really hurt Jeffrey was
Speaker 6: finding out about these underage girls. And these girls were
Speaker 6: not like the eighteen to twenty five in New York
Speaker 6: City that were ambitious and beautiful actresses and models. And
Speaker 6: you know, he helped a lot of these women. He
Speaker 6: was hurting me, hurt the other women too, but he
Speaker 6: was hurting the underage his children. These children were from
Speaker 6: like rough parts of town. They were already addicted to
Speaker 6: drugs or came from abusive families. And Glaine and she's
Speaker 6: in prison now, you know, I went to her trial.
Speaker 1: That was what also. But his lover, right, wasn't I supposedly.
Speaker 6: I guess then back in the day and then she
Speaker 6: was in his circle of powerful people and helping to
Speaker 6: find I mean literally going to look for these underage
Speaker 6: mostly blonde or you know, white females.
Speaker 1: Right, she's in jail forever, I'm hoping or what's coming?
Speaker 6: Did she get sentenced she got sentenced, but probably not forever.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 6: To be the only woman, the only person that's gone
Speaker 6: to jail for everything that Jeffrey Epsen has done is
Speaker 6: a woman.
Speaker 2: Interesting, that's crazy. It's interesting that she even like as
Speaker 2: a one. Like a lot of times abusers have women
Speaker 2: to help. Oh, that's like always it makes it makes
Speaker 2: it feel comfortable, safer. Yeah, but that's always like astonishing
Speaker 2: to me because what the fuck like that a woman
Speaker 2: would do that to another woman.
Speaker 6: But I mean probably, yeah, I didn't care about these
Speaker 6: young girls. And she's from a royal family, or not
Speaker 6: a royal family, but a wealthy family in England with
Speaker 6: friends with Prince Andrew and all those people and stuff.
Speaker 6: So I think she just looked down on these young
Speaker 6: girls like there were nothing. I mean, I've ever heard
Speaker 6: that she said that about them. So it's this whole
Speaker 6: level of evil.
Speaker 1: How do you feel, like, you know, reflecting back on
Speaker 1: the situation and then like thinking about just your childhood,
Speaker 1: was there anything that like is correlated in like any
Speaker 1: sort of experiences or the childhood of that could have
Speaker 1: contributed to you feeling powerless?
Speaker 6: Well, I mean it's funny you say that, but the
Speaker 6: childhood I think the first seven years is it defines
Speaker 6: all of us for the rest of our lives.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 6: So the childhood is funny thing because I would have
Speaker 6: never have said. I always said I had a great childhood.
Speaker 6: Traveled all around the world, you know, and went to
Speaker 6: great schools, and had supportive parents that you know, we're
Speaker 6: always there for me. My mom stayed at home, my
Speaker 6: dad worked, I had everything I wanted, popular are lots
Speaker 6: of friends. I always said I had a great childhood.
Speaker 6: But to answer question, I never had like a relationship
Speaker 6: with my parents that I felt loved and adored and
Speaker 6: cared for. And I never felt like they were proud
Speaker 6: of me. You know. I always had a little bit
Speaker 6: of shame maybe about my childhood, and that had to
Speaker 6: do with my parents. My dad never really called me
Speaker 6: and checked on me, how are you doing, you know,
Speaker 6: and telling me I saw you on TV or I
Speaker 6: did this because I was very successful in my twenties.
Speaker 6: I was always on TV maybe five ten commercials every
Speaker 6: that were popular commercials, and you know, in magazines and
Speaker 6: things like that. I never felt like nobody gave a
Speaker 6: shit about me, to be honest. So I think when
Speaker 6: Jeffrey gave me that attention that it's a father figure
Speaker 6: would give you, not a playboy, it was a father
Speaker 6: figure mentor. I was just desperate for it, you know, Yeah,
Speaker 6: I was desperate for it. So I just wanted I
Speaker 6: like that attention from a man. I did, and I
Speaker 6: like learning from him, and I felt like someone cared about.
Speaker 1: Me right here, giving you guidance, giving you support.
Speaker 6: I did, and that's why. Also when he died, I
Speaker 6: still get emotional when he died. When I saw him
Speaker 6: the news that he died, I felt like part of
Speaker 6: me had died. So sick to say that because of
Speaker 6: who he is, but a part of but he was
Speaker 6: a part of my life for a few years that
Speaker 6: I looked up to and he was a mentor to me.
Speaker 6: So it was confusing, very right, So you feel kind
Speaker 6: of like a family member died. I feel differently now
Speaker 6: now because I've been on this journey and I've met
Speaker 6: with survivors and I know now what I was, what
Speaker 6: I was going through, and what I went through, and
Speaker 6: I'm very much aware of the abuse that I went through,
Speaker 6: where a few years ago I didn't even think about it.
Speaker 6: It almost like it didn't even happen. And I've had
Speaker 6: to go through many years of therapy to actually talk
Speaker 6: about it. And it took me three or four months
Speaker 6: even to start talking about the abuse that happened to me
Speaker 6: at the hands of Jeffrey Epstein.
Speaker 2: You know, I think people underestimate the fact that like
Speaker 2: a lot of times, your abuser is someone that you
Speaker 2: admire and love, and that it's usually generally very confusing.
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter like if something happens to you very
Speaker 2: young or like it's it's a lot of times in
Speaker 2: order to be groomed, you have to you have to
Speaker 2: grow an affinity for that person in order for them
Speaker 2: to be for you to be vulnerable enough.
Speaker 1: To let it happen.
Speaker 2: And I think people like particularly men or people who
Speaker 2: are looking from the outside and like, are not recognizing
Speaker 2: how deeply intricate those relationships actually are. Even to like
Speaker 2: childhood shit, when like you're you know, kids are molested,
Speaker 2: it's like you're you're also being aroused, so your body
Speaker 2: is responding in a way that it feels good because
Speaker 2: this is what your body does, and then.
Speaker 1: That feels very confusing.
Speaker 2: I think even for me, I was molested for a
Speaker 2: long time growing up, and it took me a long
Speaker 2: time to even consider it that because it was from
Speaker 2: someone who's close to me. It's a female, she's a
Speaker 2: little bit older than me. Like I thought, like, this
Speaker 2: is what kids do, very normal. I thought this was
Speaker 2: normal normalcy. And as I started to go get older
Speaker 2: and talk to other people and like just educate myself
Speaker 2: more and just these conversations become more like on the forefront,
Speaker 2: I recognized that, Like in my adulthood, when I would
Speaker 2: be in situations with boys that I did like, but
Speaker 2: I didn't want to keep going. I would just freeze
Speaker 2: and shut up. I would freeze, and I there was
Speaker 2: like a specific moment where I remember like saying no, no, no,
Speaker 2: and then I.
Speaker 1: Just literally checked out. And I was like, what the
Speaker 1: fuck is that?
Speaker 2: Even in my own head, like that's weird that I
Speaker 2: could just check out, but recognizing like as a kid,
Speaker 2: I did that, and so our bodies, how our bodies
Speaker 2: deal with trauma in childhood. It's like if you cannot
Speaker 2: handle the big emotion, if you cannot process it, that's
Speaker 2: how your body protects you. Your body, your psyche is
Speaker 2: protecting you. So you do forget, you do freeze, you
Speaker 2: do literally tether from your body because you can't handle
Speaker 2: what's going on. And so if that is something that
Speaker 2: has happened to you in childhood or you know, early
Speaker 2: developmental ages, is as you're getting older, that is something
Speaker 2: that you will your body will automatically do to protect itself,
Speaker 2: and so you just think you're protecting yourself. And same
Speaker 2: like even as an adult, Like in my thirties, I
Speaker 2: was raped and I would never even say that word
Speaker 2: until I had a client. I was doing her lashes
Speaker 2: and she was raped by someone she was having sex
Speaker 2: with on a regular basis, but this one particular time,
Speaker 2: he would not stop and she was telling me about it,
Speaker 2: and the client was a little bit kooky, a little
Speaker 2: bit crazy, and I was like, she's crazy a little
Speaker 2: bit and I was like, uh huh. And you know,
Speaker 2: she came back three weeks later to get her lashes
Speaker 2: refilled and she was like, you know, I've told my
Speaker 2: friends that story and none of them said I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: None of them they were all like judging me. And
Speaker 2: in that moment I realized fun I judged her.
Speaker 4: And then in that.
Speaker 1: Moment again, as I keep going, I'm like, bitch, you
Speaker 1: were raped.
Speaker 2: It took all of those steps to acknowledge that I
Speaker 2: was a not having any empathy for this woman because
Speaker 2: it was someone that she had had, you know, voluntary
Speaker 2: sex with before and she's an adult. And then it
Speaker 2: took her step further part to be like, my friends
Speaker 2: didn't even like show up in a caring way, and
Speaker 2: I was like, damn, I didn't really I didn't really
Speaker 2: feel And then that moment, I was like, bitch, this
Speaker 2: happened to you very recently by someone that you love
Speaker 2: and that you had sex with voluntarily, so you didn't
Speaker 2: I didn't even think to consider this thing rape.
Speaker 4: And it just it took.
Speaker 2: A lot even for me to say the word rape
Speaker 2: because it's such a heavy word that women are mostly
Speaker 2: told not to say.
Speaker 1: And also so like putting that putting that word on
Speaker 1: your abuse or feels like heavy, too heavy, because that
Speaker 1: you can't take it back.
Speaker 2: You can't say that, yeah, that like it's like it's.
Speaker 4: It's it's it's a weird thing for women.
Speaker 2: It's a weird thing in general because if I then
Speaker 2: call you a rapist, then that's what you are, and
Speaker 2: then then I'm in it. Then I have then I'm
Speaker 2: a victim, and then I'm a victim and then I
Speaker 2: haven't done anything. And there's all these there's all these
Speaker 2: layers to abuse and how it starts and how it
Speaker 2: like and how it continues and how it plants its
Speaker 2: seeds in your life as an adult. And even now
Speaker 2: in this very moment, like I've had shit happened to me,
Speaker 2: like it, even in this process of like good Moms
Speaker 2: talking every week for fucking seven years, I feel very empowered.
Speaker 4: I feel very confident.
Speaker 2: So I thought, so I think you know, and so
Speaker 2: I have been put in situations as an adult like
Speaker 2: I never even said anything about this on the podcast.
Speaker 2: But when I went to school for TANTRA, a school
Speaker 2: that is supposed to be trauma informed, well, we learned
Speaker 2: about sexual assaults specifically and trauma. The night of my graduation,
Speaker 2: a teacher who had comforted me and supported me through
Speaker 2: like a release that had to do with sexual assault,
Speaker 2: then groped me and said something like rubbed his fucking
Speaker 2: bare body on the back of me and said like
Speaker 2: basically he wanted to have sex with me, and I
Speaker 2: fucking froze.
Speaker 4: And I just didn't know what. I literally didn't do anything,
Speaker 4: and I didn't.
Speaker 2: Know what else to do, and I didn't even like
Speaker 2: I The next day, I was so like other people
Speaker 2: saw other students, everyone noticed what was happening, except the
Speaker 2: people who were supposed.
Speaker 1: To notice what was happening.
Speaker 6: But I did that in front of everyone.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he did.
Speaker 2: His wife was there what At one point, the owner
Speaker 2: of the school was there.
Speaker 4: Apparently nobody noticed any of this behavior.
Speaker 2: The next day, I called Orlando and I was like, Yo,
Speaker 2: this shit so and so happened. And I was like,
Speaker 2: I don't want to tell on him, and He's like,
Speaker 2: what the fuck are you talking about. I was like,
Speaker 2: I don't want him to get in trouble. I even
Speaker 2: said to one of the other students. She was like,
Speaker 2: let's go back there and tell the other teacher. I
Speaker 2: was like, I don't want to tell the white man.
Speaker 2: I don't want to tell the white man on the
Speaker 2: black man. And she was like, that's the only other
Speaker 2: man that there is. And I was like, hold the
Speaker 2: fuck is this guy that I'm protected.
Speaker 1: Protecting this black man for what?
Speaker 2: And I just recognized, like in that moment, like I
Speaker 2: started to unravel and I was just like I literally
Speaker 2: even when I called I called the founder of the school.
Speaker 2: I was shaking and I had two students around me,
Speaker 2: like I'll support you while you do this call, and
Speaker 2: I'm like, still not really processing why am I shaking
Speaker 2: from something something so much deeper? And even when I
Speaker 2: called her, I said, please don't say anything. I don't
Speaker 2: want him to get in trouble.
Speaker 6: You're protecting him.
Speaker 4: I was like, I like literally reverted back into childhood.
Speaker 2: I was like five years old, and I couldn't even
Speaker 2: understand it. Like someone who feels confident, someone who feels empowered,
Speaker 2: someone who I feel like I use my voice often.
Speaker 2: In this moment, like all that shit went out the window.
Speaker 2: I had just finished a two year course about fucking
Speaker 2: trauma and sexual shit, and I could not even understand
Speaker 2: while I was reacting this way.
Speaker 1: I didn't even realize.
Speaker 2: It was just something that immediately made me just say
Speaker 2: I don't want to do it. And it took like
Speaker 2: a lot to kind of start peeling back the layers
Speaker 2: of why I reacted this way, why I allowed it
Speaker 2: to happen, why I didn't just say, like, yo, what
Speaker 2: are you doing? Like I didn't say any of these things,
Speaker 2: and in fact, nobody did, even the wife who was
Speaker 2: over in the corner peeping shit, because she also froze
Speaker 2: because this was a bad situation. And even even I
Speaker 2: didn't even think that in that situation because I'm a
Speaker 2: grown ass adult, like I'm not in high school, I'm
Speaker 2: not in college. This is like a post you know,
Speaker 2: like an adult college essentially. I still felt so deeply
Speaker 2: about this power dynamic that this was my teacher and
Speaker 2: this administrator, like you know, this administration. I didn't want
Speaker 2: to disappoint anyone, but it just it took me, like
Speaker 2: it's that happened almost two years ago, a year and
Speaker 2: a half ago, and it still weighs on me because
Speaker 2: I wanted it to just go away. I wanted to
Speaker 2: just be done with school, graduate, be happy, go into
Speaker 2: this practice that I spent all the money in.
Speaker 1: But it's it.
Speaker 2: Has lingered and lingered and lingered and lingered because I
Speaker 2: didn't say anything. I had someone recently tell me, like
Speaker 2: I'm going to that school, and I was like, okay,
Speaker 2: you know, like should I say something? Is this going
Speaker 2: to discredit like all the education that I got. Is
Speaker 2: this going to like, you know, why didn't I do anything?
Speaker 4: But I'm like, this is.
Speaker 2: How deeply rooted this shit is because it doesn't like
Speaker 2: you can be confident, you can be empowered, you can
Speaker 2: have kids. All these things can happen, and you can
Speaker 2: still become a victim because in the moment.
Speaker 1: You a lot of times revert. And we know, like
Speaker 1: women are not trained in this.
Speaker 2: We're just now getting to a place where we can
Speaker 2: have these conversations and be like this happened to me
Speaker 2: and not feel like discarded, not feel worthless because of it,
Speaker 2: and also know like this shit had nothing to do
Speaker 2: with me, Like and it's and it's it's scary that
Speaker 2: shit scared me. And there's been times in my adulthood,
Speaker 2: like I said, these separate, you know, incidents where I'm like,
Speaker 2: what the fuck who am I? And it makes me
Speaker 2: realize there's something so much deeper, like that's like implanted
Speaker 2: in me, like that this is how I react that
Speaker 2: I literally check out of my body. And it happens
Speaker 2: like in certain situations you'll notice like if you just
Speaker 2: don't have any feeling at all, you go numb, it's
Speaker 2: because you're checking out of your fucking body because that's
Speaker 2: what's safe for you, and that's what's protected you. And
Speaker 2: like it takes a lot of time to recon to
Speaker 2: say like you're safe and you don't have to check out.
Speaker 2: You can stay here and deal with these feelings. They're
Speaker 2: not too big. But I just like, even in having
Speaker 2: the reluctancy to even say it here, to the reluctancy
Speaker 2: to say it to my man, the reluctancy like when
Speaker 2: he got hype, I was like, Yo, calm down, this is.
Speaker 6: The first time you've talked about it.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is the first time I ever talked down
Speaker 2: on the air. And because I don't feel like, I
Speaker 2: don't feel like they did enough. I don't feel I
Speaker 2: feel like after I had conversations with the woman who
Speaker 2: owned the school and I was like, this has caused
Speaker 2: a lot of issues, and her response was this is good.
Speaker 2: It was time to you know, look at these things.
Speaker 2: Everyone should go to therapy. And that's crazy, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean. And it made me realize like this
Speaker 2: person who I was like looking at as like this
Speaker 2: amazing person with all this information, which the information is great.
Speaker 2: What I got from it was great. How the situation
Speaker 2: was dealt with was not great. Like the whatever training
Speaker 2: that you go into, like when you're dealing with women
Speaker 2: in sex specifically, there's a lot of vulnerabilities there and
Speaker 2: the people who are in that space need to be
Speaker 2: trained times ten. And I don't think that was what
Speaker 2: happened there, and it made me it let me, let
Speaker 2: me leave with a lot of shame. I felt shame
Speaker 2: that I didn't say anything. I didn't make a bigger
Speaker 2: deal about it that I you know, until this day,
Speaker 2: like I don't feel good about it. And it just
Speaker 2: it just it just brought up a lot of things
Speaker 2: that I didn't recognize were unresolved and that I hadn't
Speaker 2: worked through. And like even right now, Erica and I
Speaker 2: are in this or in a queen healing program with
Speaker 2: Goddess Jesse at the Sweet Love Sanctuary, and you know,
Speaker 2: we're going through like a twelve week process of different
Speaker 2: different things are I mean, it's come up and you know,
Speaker 2: recently in week six we were talking about are just
Speaker 2: like our relationships with our pussies, experiences that we've had
Speaker 2: using our pussies for bad and are like you know,
Speaker 2: selling it for less than it's worth energetically and finance,
Speaker 2: like just actually tangible money and just like have you
Speaker 2: ever been in a situation like just posing questions that
Speaker 2: I think in adulthood is women and just as people
Speaker 2: who have experienced sexual assault, you you can just live
Speaker 2: your life and move forward without ever having to think
Speaker 2: about these things again. But when they're like questions are
Speaker 2: posed to like have you ever been a situation where
Speaker 2: you did something sexual you didn't want to do? Hell yeah,
Speaker 2: for years and years and years, and even in my
Speaker 2: college years, getting so drunk, getting blacked out, drunk because
Speaker 2: I'm suppressing something, not because I'm partying and it's fun
Speaker 2: because bitch, you're hurt, and not even connecting those two
Speaker 2: things even to the point like recently, I was like
Speaker 2: with my man and he choked me and like being
Speaker 2: like on some kinki, like being intimate, and I I
Speaker 2: passed out a little bit and when I woke up
Speaker 2: it probably was like eight seconds. But I had a
Speaker 2: moment where I was like where am I? And immediately
Speaker 2: I felt shame. Immediately I felt guilt, I felt scared,
Speaker 2: and it made me feel like I was in my
Speaker 2: twenties blacked out somewhere with somebody I didn't know or recognize,
Speaker 2: and I immediately started crying and he's like, whoa are
Speaker 2: you okay? I was like no, and I couldn't even
Speaker 2: say what was bothering?
Speaker 7: Me.
Speaker 2: I couldn't even put into words like that. This felt
Speaker 2: eerily familiar. And just recognizing that, like by suppressing these
Speaker 2: feelings by not ha like even in girlfriend's situations, like
Speaker 2: has there been a time or someone's done something to
Speaker 2: you that you haven't acknowledged it is this is where
Speaker 2: h the healing happens. If we can't have the conversations,
Speaker 2: we will never address the thing. And the thing about
Speaker 2: Tantra is what I did learn is like that shit
Speaker 2: doesn't go anywhere.
Speaker 4: It lives in your body. The body keeps the score.
Speaker 2: So even if you think you've forgotten, if you keep
Speaker 2: sweeping shit under the carpet, bitch, it's going to come up.
Speaker 2: And you know, obviously in this chapter of my life,
Speaker 2: I've done a lot of work and I'm in a
Speaker 2: really safe relationship and I can have these conversations. And
Speaker 2: even then, I recognize when I have memories come up
Speaker 2: and I'm not ready to talk about them, and I
Speaker 2: leave them there until I'm ready to revisit them, Okay,
Speaker 2: And like it is a it's a process, and I
Speaker 2: just I know that there are so many women who
Speaker 2: have experienced shit like this, and you're listening and you're like, damn,
Speaker 2: I wanted to leave that there, and I'm encouraging you
Speaker 2: to like look at it, you know, like go on
Speaker 2: your body and find where that memory lives and kind
Speaker 2: of trace that thread, because I think a lot of
Speaker 2: us think that we can cut it and you can't.
Speaker 2: It lives like those those things live and when you
Speaker 2: give birth, you know, like epigenetics, And I'm thinking of
Speaker 2: us all as black women, you know. I was just
Speaker 2: looking at something today about the vessel and how you know,
Speaker 2: just like historically, when when you have all your value
Speaker 2: and like historically our vessel, there's so much has been
Speaker 2: put on the vessel, how we start to move in
Speaker 2: that way? And for a long time, I was like,
Speaker 2: I'm powerful. I could fuck over I want. I don't
Speaker 2: give a fuck because I don't care, because it was
Speaker 2: me trying to say that, like even if someone has
Speaker 2: done something to me, now I'm I'm in control now
Speaker 2: when I haven't been, I've just fucking suppressed and wilding
Speaker 2: the fuck out and thinking that like just you know,
Speaker 2: bearing it more and more and more and doing more
Speaker 2: is just going to make it go away, and when
Speaker 2: in fact, I'm just fucking burying myself deeper in the shit.
Speaker 6: But I'm just that makes you feel powerful still.
Speaker 2: No, No, yeah, Like I'm like I'm a kept woman,
Speaker 2: Like I'm not like, of course I have whole tendencies.
Speaker 2: I'm a very sexual person. Like I like my sexual part.
Speaker 2: And I think that's another thing for women too, is
Speaker 2: like we are innately sexual, we give birth, we create,
Speaker 2: but it's been so demonized. So there's like this weird
Speaker 2: we don't we're not in connection with it, but we're
Speaker 2: being used for it, and so it's it's it's like
Speaker 2: a oppressive.
Speaker 4: Energy inside of us.
Speaker 2: It's like I want to be sexual and I feel
Speaker 2: I feel connected to my sensuality, but also I hate it.
Speaker 1: There's so many women.
Speaker 2: Who like completely suppress that part of them because it's
Speaker 2: like if I don't give attention to anyone, if I
Speaker 2: cover up, then maybe I'm no one's gonna see me,
Speaker 2: maybe I won't be hurt again.
Speaker 4: But we all know that doesn't make a difference.
Speaker 1: I mean it goes both ways. There's that there's that woman,
Speaker 1: and then there's the woman who's over using, using her
Speaker 1: sexual proudness for protection, yeah, for protection, to forget to
Speaker 1: feel powerful because she doesn't feel in control, but she
Speaker 1: feels like, oh, I can control these niggas right here,
Speaker 1: and they and I don't give a fuck about them.
Speaker 1: So I'm I'm somehow in control when really you're not.
Speaker 1: And I think, like, I like, it's just like such
Speaker 1: a it's just a cycle that will continue and continue.
Speaker 1: Like you said, like your body keeps the score. It
Speaker 1: doesn't just leave, it stays. And I think too, as women,
Speaker 1: we often downplay the trauma too, because it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: and like I hear your story or I hear her story,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, well, mine isn't that bad, So I
Speaker 1: think it's so hot I think get raped. So maybe it's.
Speaker 4: Like I should I shouldn't take away the intention from
Speaker 4: something that's actually a really bad abuse.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And and like yeah, and women historically we've done that.
Speaker 1: I've done that a lot in my life, not just
Speaker 1: even just like sexual assault, but just in life in general,
Speaker 1: downplaying the things that have deeply affected me because it
Speaker 1: wasn't it didn't feel substantial enough to the next person's story.
Speaker 1: And so I think it's so important for us to
Speaker 1: have these type of conversations so that we understand that, Okay, yes,
Speaker 1: there is a spectrum. At the end of the day,
Speaker 1: it's one thing, you know, like it's one thing, and
Speaker 1: it's trauma, and it's hurt and it's pain, and the
Speaker 1: beauty of all of it is that you can heal
Speaker 1: from it. You can. You can't access it, you have
Speaker 1: you have the power to access it, but you have
Speaker 1: to you have to face it, you have to sit
Speaker 1: with it. You have to say, oh my god, yeah,
Speaker 1: these are big things, big feelings, and I'm ready to now,
Speaker 1: like conquer it one thing at a time, though, because
Speaker 1: it can feel totally overwhelming, We're like, where the fuck
Speaker 1: do I even start, you know, And so I guess
Speaker 1: my question for you is like where did you start?
Speaker 1: Where did you start on.
Speaker 6: The healing journey? Here? For me, first acknowledging what happened,
Speaker 6: you know, the acknowledgment of what happened, and finding people
Speaker 6: that I could speak to that I trusted, where it
Speaker 6: felt like a safe place for me. So when I
Speaker 6: started speaking out, I mean I had best friends, friends,
Speaker 6: boyfriend and listen to me, family members that didn't want
Speaker 6: to support and so I had to go and look.
Speaker 6: Where I went was to other survivors, usually of the
Speaker 6: same abuser or just anyone who's survivors, which is why
Speaker 6: the podcast came about. But I wanted to just speak
Speaker 6: to women who under stood what I had gone through
Speaker 6: then weren't going to judge because I found as I
Speaker 6: was speaking out, oh, just everyone just judges you so much,
Speaker 6: like you're the bad person, or you stayed in an
Speaker 6: abusive relationship, or why did you do that, and just
Speaker 6: everything that just makes you just want to clam up
Speaker 6: and not talk about it, your abuse. So but I
Speaker 6: was ready to because I'm just because you know, it
Speaker 6: was in the news and everything, and the survivors were
Speaker 6: speaking out and I knew that I had a very
Speaker 6: similar story. So I connected with other survivors. Many of
Speaker 6: them started a group chat. We started speaking on the
Speaker 6: phone for hours, and I lost a lot of some
Speaker 6: of my family and some friends, you know, through through
Speaker 6: this journey, and to me, that was the hardest part
Speaker 6: of just not having your closest family and friends really
Speaker 6: support you. That was hard for me. But I you know,
Speaker 6: as you do a podcast, you meet so many wonderful
Speaker 6: people and you build all these new friendships. So that's
Speaker 6: been really helpful for me the healing journey. That and
Speaker 6: also EMDR therapy. I was telling you before, EMDR therapy
Speaker 6: is just has changed my life. So it's a type
Speaker 6: of therapy. It's not just talking. You use rapid eye movement,
Speaker 6: so there's flashlights where your eyes are moving back and
Speaker 6: forth like this, back and forth, and it's going into
Speaker 6: certain parts of your memory. And you have pulse pulsators
Speaker 6: in your hand going back and forth, and you have
Speaker 6: the music going back and forth. There's all these different things,
Speaker 6: and it really makes you go back into suppressed thoughts
Speaker 6: and memories that you kind of don't want to talk
Speaker 6: about or think about, or that you're just literally suppressing.
Speaker 6: It means that you don't want anything to do with
Speaker 6: it anymore. But as you both were saying, when you
Speaker 6: go through this whole healing journey, it's like you have
Speaker 6: to really own it, the good, bad, the ugly. You
Speaker 6: really have to own what you went through and talk
Speaker 6: about it and then you can finally move into healing
Speaker 6: from it.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 6: But I mean, for so many years I just suppressed
Speaker 6: it and didn't think about it.
Speaker 1: When those feelings come up, I'm thinking because for me,
Speaker 1: my memory is something that I'm always really insecure about,
Speaker 1: Like I feel so worried about when I'm getting old
Speaker 1: and I'm like, am I going to remember my life?
Speaker 1: I have a really hard time remembering things. And as
Speaker 1: I've been in this work with Goddess Jesse in the
Speaker 1: Queen Healing Circle, I've just realized that I think so
Speaker 1: much of my suppression is because as a child, I
Speaker 1: was going through different traumatic events and I didn't know
Speaker 1: where to put them, and so I put everything in
Speaker 1: one box. And so now I put everything in one box.
Speaker 1: Even the good shit is in one box. Like I
Speaker 1: can't even remember good memories. They're all in one box,
Speaker 1: and they're just kind of like it's like this foggy
Speaker 1: glass where it's like I can see it, but I
Speaker 1: can't really like see the detail that. And so through meditation,
Speaker 1: through a lot of generational healing, ancestral healing, it's there's
Speaker 1: little things that are starting. Even me interviewing my family
Speaker 1: this week, part is part of my process of like
Speaker 1: trying to like access things and remember things. But em
Speaker 1: you said, what's called EMDR. I was like that sounds
Speaker 1: really interesting, and I'm wondering, like I would work for you,
Speaker 1: like where where the fuck are these memories?
Speaker 6: Now? That I would work for you? Because for me,
Speaker 6: I didn't have those memories either. You didn't know they
Speaker 6: can't they pressed them.
Speaker 1: They literally came from that. Interesting.
Speaker 4: Interesting, I have a question about ADMR.
Speaker 2: I know it's like it has like like a lot
Speaker 2: of relation to like hypno, but I'm always confused about
Speaker 2: like are you are they like the therapist is like
Speaker 2: telling you to bring up the stories and repeat them
Speaker 2: back and like kind of go there so you can
Speaker 2: tell them in deep at detail. And then is there
Speaker 2: a part where there are you read telling this like
Speaker 2: after you say it a lot of times? Are you
Speaker 2: then retelling the story in a way that is something
Speaker 2: you can sit with?
Speaker 6: Well, he doesn't, He doesn't ask me any questions. Okay,
Speaker 6: So I just come in every week because of the podcast.
Speaker 6: I do it twice a week to deal with the
Speaker 6: trauma that brings in problem right from my guests. But
Speaker 6: for me, I just talk about my day, what's been
Speaker 6: going on, or what's happened that week, and then from
Speaker 6: that trauma from the past is going to show up
Speaker 6: daily or weekly, monthly. So as you're talking about things
Speaker 6: in he'll say, Okay, tell me more about that. You'll
Speaker 6: just talk a little bit more. But why did you
Speaker 6: do that if you go on if you're dating or
Speaker 6: something with your husband or whatever, and he just dives
Speaker 6: into that a little bit deeper with you, and then
Speaker 6: you know, you can start the music, start the polls,
Speaker 6: and then you doing the rapid eye movement and then
Speaker 6: you go deeper into some of those memories. So it's
Speaker 6: just bringing stuff up as you bring it up.
Speaker 4: It's like it kind of creates the kind of root
Speaker 4: back to where it's rooted to.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's not the normal therapy where they're asking you
Speaker 6: questions or whatever. It's like they wait until your talk
Speaker 6: and he will sit there, minutes will go by until
Speaker 6: you start talking because it's all about you. And so yeah,
Speaker 6: so I would just so many things. I mean, I've
Speaker 6: been doing it for a year now and it's incredible
Speaker 6: because not only as you go through this healing process.
Speaker 6: I just I used to be like against therapy, like
Speaker 6: I don't need that because they used to do talk
Speaker 6: therapy for years and did nothing for me. Like I
Speaker 6: almost would like not want to.
Speaker 2: Go alternative therapy is like a lot of times you
Speaker 2: need something more than just talking.
Speaker 1: Because I needed it.
Speaker 6: I needed something deeper.
Speaker 4: Because we're trained to just talk in a way that
Speaker 4: suppresses what like you don't tell the truth, yeah, or
Speaker 4: you just dance around the same because I don't want
Speaker 4: to talk about that ship.
Speaker 6: Exactly, you dance around it. And plus plus I alrea't
Speaker 6: even remember what happened about certain situations, right, But this
Speaker 6: this kind of memory, it's like he waits until you
Speaker 6: talk about Then it's like he knows exactly where to
Speaker 6: dig into, dig into a little bit, dig into a
Speaker 6: little bit more. A lot of times I'll be in
Speaker 6: there for an hour and a half, two hours and
Speaker 6: come out and for days be so angry because I
Speaker 6: brought up things that I don't want I didn't want
Speaker 6: to think about that really like and also a lot
Speaker 6: of times you don't want to have memories about certain
Speaker 6: people in your life that you think are good in
Speaker 6: your life.
Speaker 2: You've made You've made a story about them, so you've
Speaker 2: made so they can exist there. And so it's like
Speaker 2: if I don't, if I don't want to, if I
Speaker 2: don't want to interrupt the story I've been telling myself exactly.
Speaker 1: Then I just did. I just don't.
Speaker 6: We're all telling the same story all the time. It's
Speaker 6: not always true we're telling so yeah, so it goes
Speaker 6: into those memories over and over and over again until
Speaker 6: I can finally start healing them, owning it, you know,
Speaker 6: and then pushing putting that in a safe place.
Speaker 2: So bringing up like just weekly daily things, and then
Speaker 2: how do they relate to these deep suppressed memories, Because.
Speaker 6: It could just be something you're talking about with your daughter,
Speaker 6: some advice you gave her. Where did that come from?
Speaker 6: Let's talk more about that.
Speaker 2: That's so interesting because even yesterday and I was sharing
Speaker 2: with you what she told me about the girl at
Speaker 2: school liking girls, I to, you know, at first, I
Speaker 2: was like, you know, it's not a big deal. I
Speaker 2: was like, except if someone tries to make you do
Speaker 2: something you don't want to do. And in that moment,
Speaker 2: it made me think about should I do that I
Speaker 2: didn't want to do as a kid at being around
Speaker 2: her age, and I'm like like, for a brief moment
Speaker 2: that went there, but then I just like, I don't
Speaker 2: want to make it too heavy, and just like, yeah,
Speaker 2: just you know, I always do what you want to do.
Speaker 6: But there's there's that's important to say.
Speaker 2: We forget that on a regular, daily, weekly basis, there
Speaker 2: are probably things that come up that will trigger those
Speaker 2: memories briefly, but if you are so busy suppressing them
Speaker 2: and covering them, you're gonna you're gonna breeze right past them, hit.
Speaker 1: The less instead of the right.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And the thing about suppression about what you were saying.
Speaker 2: And I've said this before, and I truly believe this
Speaker 2: because I feel like me and Eric have both experienced
Speaker 2: this in this like peak of good moms, like experiencing
Speaker 2: all these new things together and like, you know, accomplishing
Speaker 2: all these amazing things together. I feel like when you
Speaker 2: have things that happen to you that are really bad
Speaker 2: that you don't go into, when things that happen to
Speaker 2: you that are really good, your body loses the ability
Speaker 2: to react in any in any way that's too high,
Speaker 2: too sad, too traumatic, or too happy. So you're kind
Speaker 2: of always at like this this middle neutral fuel because
Speaker 2: you're you've trained yourself to suppress big emotions, and so
Speaker 2: what happens is like you're like, I'm so happy, and
Speaker 2: then you're like, but I don't know why I can't
Speaker 2: really feel. It's because when things that happen that are true,
Speaker 2: you don't feel things that what happened that are really
Speaker 2: good you also won't feel and so there's like a
Speaker 2: you have to give yourself permission to like constantly feel
Speaker 2: like well, yeah.
Speaker 6: And crying is so important. Actually getting those tears outs
Speaker 6: when you kind of release is super important. You ever
Speaker 6: talk to people are like, I've never cried, Well that
Speaker 6: was me. I hadn't cried for like twenty years. Wow,
Speaker 6: and thought of like those kinds of things that would
Speaker 6: make me cry. And then after going through emdr By,
Speaker 6: I cry all the time. You guys, you guys, I'm
Speaker 6: always backed yeah, and I'm always like on this sensitive thing.
Speaker 6: I can feel when like I'm getting sensitive.
Speaker 4: Because you're in touch with your body, guper.
Speaker 6: In touch now, and then when you're super in touch
Speaker 6: with your body, then you can have those boundaries right
Speaker 6: when you're you know.
Speaker 1: Right because you actually know what your body does doesn't want,
Speaker 1: and what it actually does want. I know you're a
Speaker 1: mother of three boys. How has this, like, I guess, honesty,
Speaker 1: this unearthing. Have you discussed it with them? Like, I
Speaker 1: mean I'm assuming you have because they're a little bit older.
Speaker 6: Yeah, what was that conversation? Like from the start I
Speaker 6: always told them when I went to speak or was
Speaker 6: interviewed for a documentary. I would tell them what it
Speaker 6: was for. Well, like you said, they're older. So I
Speaker 6: have teenagers now, but at first they were under eight
Speaker 6: or something, I probably wouldn't have said something like that,
Speaker 6: but as they were getting older, I've always been that
Speaker 6: type of mom where I just want them to know.
Speaker 6: I don't like to sugarcoat anything, and I don't do
Speaker 6: the birds and the bees. Have you asked me about sex,
Speaker 6: I'm telling you exactly what it is, right, and I
Speaker 6: just want to be super honest about things because that's
Speaker 6: the way the world is. You don't want to sugarcoat
Speaker 6: things too much for kids because you want to. It's
Speaker 6: a harsh world and not everybody's good out there, so
Speaker 6: you need to let them know. From when they're little,
Speaker 6: you know, little by little you know, but what to
Speaker 6: really expect out of life. So when I told them
Speaker 6: and using your stuff that you've gone through as an example,
Speaker 6: so as they're becoming teenagers and speaking out about sexual
Speaker 6: assault and things that I went through when I was
Speaker 6: in my early twenties and even teens, just being honest
Speaker 6: about that so they learn from your mistakes and learn
Speaker 6: from things that you've gone through and especially with boys
Speaker 6: and girls, they're thinking about how when they get in
Speaker 6: a certain situation, they're like, oh, my mom went through this,
Speaker 6: or mom taught me about this in a roundabout way
Speaker 6: instead of like don't do this or you know, it's
Speaker 6: more like, Okay, my mom went through this, so I understand.
Speaker 6: So they've been my biggest supporters. They've been so awesome
Speaker 6: and just I mean, I couldn't have done it without him,
Speaker 6: to be really honest, without their support, because they're basically
Speaker 6: all I had. You know, when I was speaking out,
Speaker 6: like I said, I had friends and family, they just
Speaker 6: dropped off the boyfriend. During that time, I was ready
Speaker 6: to start speaking out about what I went through with
Speaker 6: the Jeffrey Epstein, which was like this crazy story, and
Speaker 6: he just literally just looked at me. I was like,
Speaker 6: I don't want to hear about it.
Speaker 4: Wow, now I don't want to hear about it.
Speaker 6: I don't want to hear about it. Like I see
Speaker 6: later on told me, oh, I thought he was like
Speaker 6: a playboy and maybe you have this like sugar daddy
Speaker 6: relationship Like no, well, and are nothing to do with it.
Speaker 4: But are you listening to me?
Speaker 1: Are you now?
Speaker 2: You just drew a picture that you wanted to that
Speaker 2: you that was like for him, I guess so.
Speaker 6: I mean, I realized in that moment the relationship that
Speaker 6: I have with him for those three years wasn't even
Speaker 6: a relationship. He never even asked me anything about myself ever,
Speaker 6: knew nothing about me, So why would he want to
Speaker 6: know something deeper about me?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 7: Right?
Speaker 6: It was a very relationship, shallow surfacy relationship when I
Speaker 6: realized I was probably just an object to him at
Speaker 6: that point, didn't really want to get to know me.
Speaker 6: And so when you start speaking out about these kind
Speaker 6: of things, like you said, when you open up a
Speaker 6: lot of you know, kind of who your real true
Speaker 6: friends are at them moment. Yeah, yeah, it's not it's
Speaker 6: not easy to speak out.
Speaker 1: No, I think you're so incredibly brave, especially because of
Speaker 1: I guess the power that your abuser yields and the
Speaker 1: people that he's connected with, who are I'm sure quivering
Speaker 1: in their boots still in this moment and trying to
Speaker 1: see how much does this person know? Who did he tell? You? Know,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of you're mangering that I'm sure I
Speaker 1: don't know if you've experienced that that want to silence
Speaker 1: women like you. So I commend you for continuing, continuing,
Speaker 1: and not only just continuing, like creating a platform where
Speaker 1: people can share their stories. If you guys haven't checked
Speaker 1: out her podcast, make sure you go check out from
Speaker 1: now on pod. It's such a powerful place for people,
Speaker 1: especially who have experienced any sort of sexual assault or
Speaker 1: just want information on how to be able to identify it,
Speaker 1: protect themselves, protect your kids. I think that it starts
Speaker 1: so young, and it starts so like it's like these
Speaker 1: little micro aggressions that happen, and then Sunday one day
Speaker 1: you wake up and you're like, what the fuck? How
Speaker 1: did I get here? And I think that it's important
Speaker 1: for us to educate ourselves our boys too. That's why
Speaker 1: I'm really happy to hear how supportive your sons are,
Speaker 1: because like the boys, like, they really need to understand
Speaker 1: how much power they have in that dynamic, the masculine
Speaker 1: over the feminine in that.
Speaker 6: Way, even just knowing consent and.
Speaker 1: Consent, yes, the asking the consent piece is.
Speaker 6: Always because a lot of times it's just by educating
Speaker 6: our kids you can change so many things that happened
Speaker 6: to women and young women. Just the consent part if
Speaker 6: a woman's clammed up like this, she's probably not into you.
Speaker 6: Maybe even if a woman needs to be touching you,
Speaker 6: into instigating, starting things, then she's into you. But if
Speaker 6: a woman's all clammed up like this, maybe you should stop. Yeah,
Speaker 6: she's uncomfortable. I just can't say so.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that consent isn't just the warble, no, yeah,
Speaker 1: really being able to Yeah, read the room, read body language,
Speaker 1: and get get your desires out of the fucking way,
Speaker 1: because I think that's what a lot of times what
Speaker 1: happens is like okay, but like I really want to
Speaker 1: do this right now, like she'll enjoy it once we
Speaker 1: get in there, you know, and it's just it's really unfortunate.
Speaker 1: So yeah, thank you. Do you have an affirmation that
Speaker 1: you can share with our audience.
Speaker 6: Well, I do personal my personal affirmations. I don't know
Speaker 6: if it'll work for everybody, but for me, I like
Speaker 6: the sound of my name when I say affirmations because
Speaker 6: when someone says it to me, it does something for
Speaker 6: me because I grew up like not really hearing my
Speaker 6: name in a loving way. It was only like Lisa
Speaker 6: and Phillips, you know, when you're like you're in trouble,
Speaker 6: so I always say what I want to hear, what
Speaker 6: I want other people to say to me that don't right.
Speaker 6: And I'm proud of you, Lisa.
Speaker 1: I'm proud of you, Lisa. I'm proud of you.
Speaker 6: Yes, I'm proud of you. And also you're worthy of
Speaker 6: everything that you want. You're worthy of everything you want.
Speaker 4: You're worth everything that you want me, and you're very powerful.
Speaker 1: You're very powerful.
Speaker 6: Yeah. So those are the three that I say I'm
Speaker 6: a most often to myself. Yeah, or even sometimes like
Speaker 6: under my breath, like so someone can't hear me and
Speaker 6: I'm walking through like home goods or something. But if
Speaker 6: you sometimes you catch yourself in a mirror, sometimes you
Speaker 6: just want to say that, remind yourself, you know, because
Speaker 6: it's throughout the day. It's not always just like in
Speaker 6: the morning in the mirror.
Speaker 2: No, I like the name, like, I like personalizing it
Speaker 2: for you because sometimes you needs to not be general.
Speaker 4: You need to know it's for you.
Speaker 6: A lot of times when you personalize it, you get
Speaker 6: the motions come up.
Speaker 1: It shift, it shifts the s energy.
Speaker 4: You're not just saying a thing, You're saying it to you.
Speaker 1: I like that, Yeah, me too. Well, before we get
Speaker 1: out of here. I would love if you pulled a
Speaker 1: card for Tarot time.
Speaker 5: Oh boy, the Emperor, Emperor.
Speaker 6: It already sounds good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he looks powerful. He looks like he's yielding his
Speaker 1: power for good, it seems the Emperor, and shout out
Speaker 1: to bitty terror. Not terror, it's a bitty terror. It's
Speaker 1: black owned tarot, female founded, Mama owned tarot brand. So
Speaker 1: make sure you check out what should I just call
Speaker 1: them mahogany. I call mahogany.
Speaker 2: Shout out to Biddy who we always read the definition
Speaker 2: to mahogany is what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay.
Speaker 2: The Emperor as the father figure of the Tarot deck.
Speaker 2: The Emperor suggests that you are adopting this fatherly role,
Speaker 2: regardless of whether you're male or female, providing for your family,
Speaker 2: protecting and defending your loved ones, or yourself. You may
Speaker 2: be the breadwinner or the rock for those who rely
Speaker 2: on your stability and security. Similarly, the Emperor represents a
Speaker 2: powerful leader who demands respect and authority. Status, power and
Speaker 2: recognition are essential to you, and you are most comfortable
Speaker 2: in leadership role where you can command and direct others.
Speaker 2: As a leader, you rule with a firm but fair hand.
Speaker 2: You have a clear vision of what you want to create,
Speaker 2: and you organize those around you to manifest your goal.
Speaker 2: You listen to the advice of others, but you prefer
Speaker 2: to have the final say. Conflict doesn't scare you, and
Speaker 2: you won't hesitate to use your power to protect those
Speaker 2: you care about, and in return, those people will repay
Speaker 2: you with the.
Speaker 1: Loyalty and respect you deserve.
Speaker 2: Claim your authority as leader and influencer, and don't let
Speaker 2: others put you down. It reflects a system bound by
Speaker 2: rules and regulations. You create law and order by applying
Speaker 2: principles or guidelines to a specific situation. Create calm out
Speaker 2: of chaos by breaking down any problems into its parts
Speaker 2: and then mapping out the actions you need to take
Speaker 2: to resolve it. Be systematic, strategic, and highly organized in
Speaker 2: your approach, and stick to your plan until the end.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 6: I love that seeing everything out to the end is
Speaker 6: so important.
Speaker 2: It says through the course of your life you have
Speaker 2: gained valuable wisdom and life experience, and now you enjoy
Speaker 2: offering guidance, advice and direction to someone who might benefit
Speaker 2: from it.
Speaker 6: I do.
Speaker 2: Maybe a teacher, coach, boss, or a good friend who
Speaker 2: likes to take what you have learned and pass it
Speaker 2: on to others so they can be wise and as
Speaker 2: powerful as you.
Speaker 6: Wow, I love that I picked a good card and
Speaker 6: I had been the breadwinner for my kids. I've raised
Speaker 6: my kids all by myself.
Speaker 1: It picked you, baby boys.
Speaker 6: Yeah, no, that's not easy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for real And honestly, like I want to say
Speaker 2: to you, like, yes, I'm in awe of the work
Speaker 2: that you've done, and like the pivot that you've taken
Speaker 2: and that you said, shit's going to shift and I'm
Speaker 2: going to say what I need to say and taking
Speaker 2: your power back.
Speaker 4: And also just like I think this.
Speaker 2: I've been saying this for a while, but I really
Speaker 2: genuinely believe like this is the resurrection of the feminine
Speaker 2: of the women. I think there is like a power
Speaker 2: that we're getting back right now universally, and I think
Speaker 2: that it's time.
Speaker 1: It's time.
Speaker 2: I think a lot of us have suffered at the
Speaker 2: hands of the patriarchy, and I think we're all like
Speaker 2: getting our voice back and like getting on our feet.
Speaker 2: And like I think the men that have thrived and
Speaker 2: you know from the abuse of women, it's over or
Speaker 2: free bitches. Ooh, I like that, and I think like
Speaker 2: it is. It's over, free bitches for real, Like brace
Speaker 2: ourselves because when like when as we come back into
Speaker 2: our power, as we're resurrecting, we're coming back from the ashes,
Speaker 2: like it's about, it's going to be impossible for you
Speaker 2: to hurt us. It's going to be impossible because we're
Speaker 2: here together, because we're in community, because we're using our voice,
Speaker 2: and because this is what we're supposed to do historically anyway,
Speaker 2: and now that we're coming back into that power, like
Speaker 2: it's done.
Speaker 6: Yeah, stop sharing.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I want to say to you, Mila, I'm
Speaker 1: really proud of you for sharing this your testimony and
Speaker 1: your story because I know this is something that you've
Speaker 1: been kind of suffering and silent, not kind of you've
Speaker 1: been suffering with for a while now. And so I'm
Speaker 1: really proud of you for feeling brave enough to share
Speaker 1: share that.
Speaker 6: Thank you.
Speaker 1: So I love you. Thank you. I love you too. Yeah.
Speaker 6: How do you feel after sharing that?
Speaker 2: I feel good. I feel like it's just the beginning.
Speaker 2: Like I have to, like, you know, like work through
Speaker 2: all the things. And I'm still working through it, you know.
Speaker 2: I and I you know, I just I want everyone
Speaker 2: else listening to know that this kind of shit takes time,
Speaker 2: and it's not like an overnight it's two years. Yeah, years,
Speaker 2: Like it's it's a commitment to shift, and it's a
Speaker 2: commitment to doing things differently. And if you've done things
Speaker 2: a certain way, it's going to take time to uncover
Speaker 2: all of those like those habits. And you know, we're
Speaker 2: not no one's perfect or experts at healing or exactly
Speaker 2: my healing looks different from yours and yours and yours,
Speaker 2: And just like I really want to encourage everyone to
Speaker 2: just stay stick the course and even when it gets
Speaker 2: difficult and you know, and take breaks, rest, but then
Speaker 2: go back to it and understand that like that's where
Speaker 2: the power lies. Look at Lisa, you know, like literally
Speaker 2: your power lives with spreading the word about the things
Speaker 2: that you've experienced so that other people feel empowered to
Speaker 2: do the same thing.
Speaker 6: Right, really good, Yes, Lisa works.
Speaker 1: Can our audience find you?
Speaker 6: Let's see here. So I'm on Instagram. I am Lisa Phillips. Also,
Speaker 6: my podcast from No One is on YouTube, Spotify, and Apple.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, make sure you go tap into Lisa's podcast
Speaker 1: and yeah, just I think it's such an important space.
Speaker 1: If you created, like I said, so, thank you. Thank
Speaker 1: you for the work that you're doing. You guys know
Speaker 1: where to find us, or if you don't, make sure
Speaker 1: you go follow us on Instagram at Good Mom's Underscore
Speaker 1: Bad Choices. Make sure that you tap into our retreats.
Speaker 1: We have the Good Vibe Retreat coming up the summer.
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Speaker 1: even more candidly than on Instagram, because Instagram are the ops.
Speaker 2: And find a friend, find a friend in the discord
Speaker 2: in your city. If you want your erk to your Amila,
Speaker 2: go on Patreon. I mean, go on Patreon to get
Speaker 2: in discord and find people in your city, because I
Speaker 2: know moms get lonely, and you know women get lonely.
Speaker 2: And we have a really beautiful I feel like a
Speaker 2: tribe of come as you are. It's a judgment free
Speaker 2: zone whoever you are. It's like a place, a safe
Speaker 2: space to be who you are and you find a
Speaker 2: friend who's going to accept you as is. That's one
Speaker 2: thing I really love about our community. It's like free
Speaker 2: and loving and we offer support just for free.
Speaker 4: So come in like vent and find a friend.
Speaker 1: Yes, it's ten dollars a month and it's worth every
Speaker 1: fucking penny. So Patreon dot com slash good mom's bad choices,
Speaker 1: and we see this week good hey pleasing?
Speaker 7: Yeah, I'm living so good.
Speaker 1: Can't you tell?
Speaker 7: I went through a drought, that's until I found a
Speaker 7: well maym have been known Earth? I used to be
Speaker 7: broken tail, now got the blues dancing might Beyonce Jasell
Speaker 7: throat shot or popping his cow wearing our voices. Patriarchy
Speaker 7: kept it in the box. To what'spois? Women put the
Speaker 7: pee and powers, so what's pointless?
Speaker 1: They want me to be good?
Speaker 6: So I made bad choices.
Speaker 7: Bad mom, not a bad mom, but a bad mom.
Speaker 7: Gitter's in, put cannabis in their bath, bon walk in
Speaker 7: bosses cap and I blew his.
Speaker 1: Cat balls hot dog. Now I'm immune to the cat
Speaker 1: called Herbie.
Speaker 7: And no waisted straight to win like a dollar sign. Mother,
Speaker 7: rent the lover when so Woden's like a water someone
Speaker 7: where you're rent the winter resentual will win the summer
Speaker 7: time I do it.
Speaker 1: Oh, they know one that needs to run it by