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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds, and Miami Mayor Francisco Suarez has dropped

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Speaker 1: out of the GOP primary. We have such a fun

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Speaker 1: show for you today and BR's full disclosures. Robin Farzad

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Speaker 1: joins us to make sense of our very complicated economy.

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Speaker 1: Then we'll talk to Martin Pingelli, the Guardian's Washington breaking

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Speaker 1: news correspondent, about the latest fuckery with Leonard Leo and

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Speaker 1: his potential legal woes. But first we have former Senator

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Speaker 1: and host of the Al Franken podcast, the one, the

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Speaker 1: Only Al Franken.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to Fast Politics. Al Franken.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Mollie, how are you doing.

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Speaker 2: Excited to be interviewing you.

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Speaker 1: So we talked about this Republican debate where now I

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Speaker 1: feel like in the post first Republican debate cycle.

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Speaker 3: Way William Well, we were wrong a little bit, especially

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Speaker 3: you and Mark thought to say, this is terribly and

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Speaker 3: I thought he was for DeSantis actually okay, and he

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Speaker 3: got a Genie bump. Ramaswami got an actual bump and

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Speaker 3: well bump, but it was like the three of us

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Speaker 3: were going, you know, really killed it was Nicki Haley

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Speaker 3: And it's like it's like Republicans watching if there was

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Speaker 3: a real democratic debate with a Field and they're going,

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Speaker 3: they'd go, like, you know that mansion.

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Speaker 4: He really killed it because at least he talks.

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Speaker 5: Since and so you know, so Haley got a little

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Speaker 5: teeny little thing, but it was Ramaswami and Desandas that actually, well,

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Speaker 5: the Santa's got a little teeny bump, which for him

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Speaker 5: is a bump.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Desanta's people are out there spinning DeSantis left

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Speaker 1: and right. And remember you can't forget how many people

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Speaker 1: in the mainstream media and the right wing media are

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Speaker 1: working on Desanta's campaign.

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Speaker 3: Well, that hasn't stopped him from sliding and sliding and sliding.

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Speaker 3: And I just thought he got his message out as

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Speaker 3: well as he's ever done it and didn't make weird

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Speaker 3: faces or anything. He just I thought he did his

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Speaker 3: job buying, and he spoke to the base, the people

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Speaker 3: who were there and the people voting Republican primaries. I

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Speaker 3: thought he did well by himself. For the That's the

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Speaker 3: best I've seen and wasn't good, but it was all

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Speaker 3: the best I seen him.

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Speaker 1: But again it's a question of like Jeb bushamentum right,

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Speaker 1: Like you can't make people vote for someone who has

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Speaker 1: none of the attributes that people vote for when they

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Speaker 1: vote for a candidate.

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Speaker 3: Well, which worries me about Ramaswami. And we see whether

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Speaker 3: Trump it at any point. At any point Republicans go like,

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Speaker 3: can we nominate a guy and by I don't know,

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Speaker 3: maybe convicted of several things. By by I can mention

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Speaker 3: I don't know, I don't know, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Well, so I wrote this today my my Fanny Fair column,

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Speaker 1: not to plug something else. But hey, man, we all

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Speaker 1: do it about how the vake. He shows that the

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Speaker 1: GOP base is really primed for another charismatic Charlotte And

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Speaker 1: and it might not be Vivike. It probably won't be Viveke,

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Speaker 1: but it could be you know, someone much much worse.

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Speaker 3: Who in the party would emerge as a charismatic Charlottean.

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Speaker 1: Then it's hard to think of a Republican senator who

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Speaker 1: is charismatic.

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Speaker 2: I can think of a lot who are charlotte owns.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you want to say, Ted Cruz, I can feel

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Speaker 1: it at the tip of your top.

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I just want to see how the

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Speaker 3: trials go, and I want I'm very eager for then.

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Speaker 3: I guess this one in Atlanta is starting very soon.

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Speaker 1: So yes, the Atlanta I mean again, this man has

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Speaker 1: numerous trials, also numerous trial dates, but also his millions

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Speaker 1: and millions of dollars to spend on his legal fees.

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Speaker 1: And we are at this car crash of politics versus legal.

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Speaker 1: So there's a cow goes here that is sort of

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Speaker 1: I think, a little bit unknown, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, no, no, this is nothing like this has

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Speaker 3: ever happened before. But if you look at the Republican Party,

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Speaker 3: now this is all goes back to the paranoid style

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Speaker 3: of American politics.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Richard Hofstadter, who has invoked many times on this podcast.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you go back to Joe McCarthy and Pat Buchanan

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Speaker 3: and Gingrich and I wrote about Rush Limbaugh and Fox

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Speaker 3: News and feet Party and you think about and it

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Speaker 3: all ends up with Trump and a lot of it

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Speaker 3: has to do with fake news and alternative facts. And

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Speaker 3: remember alternative facts. That was Conway.

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Speaker 2: We call her Georgie's ex wife.

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Speaker 3: Well, okay, I don't want to go into someone's marriage.

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Speaker 3: So the point is is that we're at a very

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Speaker 3: very off boy. And these shootings also go back that

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Speaker 3: the racism great replacement theory or the Tucker Carlson pushed,

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Speaker 3: and the shootings of black people in Buffalo and Juus

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Speaker 3: and Pittsburgh going.

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Speaker 1: Can we pause for a minute and talk about the

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Speaker 1: assault rifle ban because you were involved in that, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well, I was there right after Sandy Hook, and I

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Speaker 3: couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe we couldn't get that passed.

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Speaker 3: There's no reason for these things. There's no reason for

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Speaker 3: these things. You do anything that you can do with us,

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Speaker 3: he can't do anything you can do with us. All well,

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Speaker 3: but there's no reason for this machine that kills people.

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Speaker 3: And remember, we had an assault weapons ban in ninety four.

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Speaker 3: We passed it and it lasted ten years, and then

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Speaker 3: Congress wouldn't renew it, and Bush said he would made

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Speaker 3: some kind of Pablomese thing, which is he would decided

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Speaker 3: if it had passed, but you know, it wasn't passing.

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Speaker 3: And then ever since then, they started making the these

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Speaker 3: weapons more and more and more efficient. So Sandy Hook,

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Speaker 3: it was these kids. It was like twenty kids and

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Speaker 3: like five adults and it was the saddest fucking thing

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Speaker 3: I've ever seen. I met families, and I couldn't believe it.

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Speaker 3: I hadn't been there all that while I had been

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Speaker 3: there actually a couple of years, but I couldn't believe

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Speaker 3: that we couldn't get anything. We couldn't get background checks.

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Speaker 3: After Valdi, there was something passed, But there's no reason

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Speaker 3: for these. And I talked to some of my Republican

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Speaker 3: former colleagues every once in a while and try to say,

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Speaker 3: there's no reasons, no reason for it. Well, a lot

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Speaker 3: of guys I use them for hunting. Why you don't

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Speaker 3: need these for hunting? You don't People hunted fine before

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Speaker 3: before these existed. And you know this is this is

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Speaker 3: this is all sick. It's all sick.

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Speaker 2: And I think also more importantly than that, I don't

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Speaker 2: know why.

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I'm on the nose.

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Speaker 2: It is the problem that they don't want to come

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Speaker 2: to the table at all, and.

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Speaker 3: They have a base it's for this, and Americans are

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Speaker 3: for background checks. Americas are for all of this. But

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Speaker 3: if you talk to somebody from Oklahoma, a Republican senator,

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Speaker 3: any one of these states, they're just check out shit.

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Speaker 1: So this leads us to how Trump really seized power.

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Speaker 1: Right is a lot of these Republican senators are rational.

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Speaker 1: They just don't want to be primaried or get death threats.

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Speaker 3: Trump had his base, and Trump could destroy Jeff Flake

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Speaker 3: and did and did, and so they all chickened out. Leavivich,

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Speaker 3: who was on my podcast with you, yeah right road,

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Speaker 3: thank you for your servitude, which is all about how

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Speaker 3: every Republican politician they wanted to survive in Washington. Just

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Speaker 3: I was there obviously when he got elected, and the

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Speaker 3: next day or when we got back, they were amazed.

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Speaker 3: The Republican senators were amazed. All but Jeff Sessions.

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Speaker 2: Why well, he had.

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Speaker 3: Been the first indoors I know, but why were the

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Speaker 3: others amazed?

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Speaker 2: No, why was Jeff Sessions not amazed?

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Speaker 3: He's Jeff Sessions. See, he's brilliant. He's the only one

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Speaker 3: who saw it. Wait, really, well, I didn't talk to

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Speaker 3: each one of them, but riding the subway, I would

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Speaker 3: just be talking to one of them and they'd be

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Speaker 3: shaking their head.

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Speaker 2: I can't believe, I mean, but that is just incredible.

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Speaker 3: That was the end of this I mean, or the

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Speaker 3: beginning of this period where it's just frightening and getting

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Speaker 3: worse and worse and worse. We were holding our breath

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Speaker 3: until next November that it can't happen again. And if

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Speaker 3: it does, we're just it's a different it's fascism.

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Speaker 2: Right, No, no, I mean the stakes are impossibly high.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the Sanda democracy with passion, and it's not the

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Speaker 3: Third Reich, but it's it's hungry or it's or some

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Speaker 3: Well Russia is pretty bad, but it'll be bad. And yeah,

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Speaker 3: he'll go after his enemies and it'll be bad. And

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Speaker 3: he's not going to be picking madness.

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Speaker 2: Right, No, no, right, that's a very good point.

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Speaker 3: He's gonna start where he ended off with these toadies.

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Speaker 1: But can Steven Miller take every position in the Trump

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Speaker 1: white House?

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Speaker 3: He can be cheap of staff and yeah, because you

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Speaker 3: know how hard Trump works. That's right, he's a good delegator. Right, Well,

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Speaker 3: no he isn't. I take that back. But that's all

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Speaker 3: we talk about, right, that's all Democrats talk about in

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Speaker 3: a like Americans. What we're going to talk about, like

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Speaker 3: how frightening a moment this is Unfortunately it's not a moment.

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Speaker 3: It's a good year and whatever.

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Speaker 1: It's really like about eight years. We've just been on

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Speaker 1: this fucking roller coaster. Since twenty fifteen we've been, or

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Speaker 1: really twenty sixteen, because in twenty fifteen we didn't a

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Speaker 1: lot of us didn't see any of this coming.

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Speaker 3: We didn't know right.

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Speaker 1: But now we're in this sort of absolute fucking nightmare

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Speaker 1: of like, you know, will this guy get re elected

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Speaker 1: and completely destroy the country again.

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Speaker 3: It's social media, it's a dark web. But it's the

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Speaker 3: other versions of Fox which are worse. And Peter Agburn,

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Speaker 3: who is the producer of my podcast and engineer, was

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Speaker 3: in South Carolina for quite a while. His father is

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Speaker 3: ill and his family just watches Fox, and oh my lord.

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Speaker 1: What's interesting to me about Fox is they have developed

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Speaker 1: a line of propaganda, which is they say everything about

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Speaker 1: Biden that the normal news used to say about Trump.

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Speaker 1: So they say by is an authoritarian, Biden is a dictator,

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Speaker 1: Biden is like they're just trying to hit Biden with everything.

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Speaker 3: Not only that he is senile, They show pictures anytime

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Speaker 3: they can show him falling down, they will and basically

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Speaker 3: say that he's not able to run. The gunman. I

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Speaker 3: just Frank four has just written a book they called

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Speaker 3: the last politician about Biden's first two years. And this

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Speaker 3: guy is on top of his government, right, this guy

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Speaker 3: has those forty years and sent you know, has that experience,

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Speaker 3: eight years as vice president, and he actually knows what

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Speaker 3: he's doing. And it's so ironic, of course that that

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Speaker 3: Trump never cared. There's a scene in the book where

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Speaker 3: you know, he's checking on a flight from Europe to

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Speaker 3: bring baby formula. This is Bien making sure that that

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Speaker 3: flight g it. So the opposite, of course is true

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Speaker 3: about in terms of his confidence and stuff compared to Trump.

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Speaker 3: Of course they're going to go he's authoritarian. That's why

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Speaker 3: he's prosecuting Trump and all that stuff. It's all lies.

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Speaker 3: It's just that's what they do. Lies in the line, liars.

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Speaker 1: Tell them that's bigging up. We're really we're plug heavy today,

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Speaker 1: but I respect it. So we have a number of

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Speaker 1: books on our reading list here. But I did want

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Speaker 1: to ask you as we are now in this kind

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Speaker 1: of strange run up to you know, the House is

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Speaker 1: coming back, the Senate is coming back. McCarthy, he's got

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Speaker 1: this four or five CE majarity. My man, he is

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Speaker 1: going now to have this big It looks like there's

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Speaker 1: a setup in the House about whether they're going to

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Speaker 1: try and impeach Biden, which a lot of mag Republicans want,

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Speaker 1: or they don't quite have a reason but they feel

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Speaker 1: fair is fair, or they're going to shut down the government.

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Speaker 2: Seems like a great idea.

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Speaker 3: The people pay the price for the American people when

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Speaker 3: you shut down the government, of course, right, I think

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Speaker 3: that would be a bad idea for them, impeaching Biden.

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Speaker 3: It would be interesting to see what the charges are,

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Speaker 3: I guess, and if they can do it, I mean,

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Speaker 3: can you hold everybody? And you hold everybody and they're

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Speaker 3: bound to lose the House if they do that. I

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Speaker 3: think I think they're bout to lose the House anyway.

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Speaker 3: It's going to be interesting because in the Senate it

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Speaker 3: looks like it's going to be a real tough road

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Speaker 3: for Democrats. But a lot just we don't know what

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Speaker 3: happens between now and then.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: I just would like for one second to talk about

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Speaker 1: how since Roe has been overturned, every election Democrats have

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Speaker 1: wildly overperformed. Again, I am not trying to make anyone

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Speaker 1: able to sleep at night, because that's not what we do.

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Speaker 2: But I do want to point that out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, certainly on every vote on the issue. And

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Speaker 3: then you know, the Wisconsin vote really was serve on

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Speaker 3: the issue the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 2: But even Ohio like that was a ten.

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Speaker 3: Point Kansas and then in Kentucky and in Montana. It

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Speaker 3: used to be a single issue, remember the other way

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Speaker 3: right Democrats didn't care about it so much because it

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Speaker 3: was precedent, and all these nominees for Supreme Court said, oh,

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Speaker 3: not only is the president's double president, and so we

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Speaker 3: went out worry about it until it happened. But now, yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's obviously a single issue and a single issue for

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Speaker 3: men and women. So the single issue of it has

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Speaker 3: completely flipped. It should hurt them, hopefully will help us

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Speaker 3: keep the Senate.

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Speaker 2: Oh, frankn thank you so much for joining us.

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Speaker 3: Always, thank you for joining me. When you join me

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Speaker 3: and I join you.

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Speaker 1: Robin Farzaide is the host of Full Disclosure on NPR.

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Speaker 4: Welcome, I'm back, Thank you, Molly.

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Speaker 2: Smoltics.

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Speaker 4: How are you you? How are you? Swell?

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: There's a recent indicator that shows that unemployment is as

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Speaker 1: low as it's ever been, and yet a fairly large

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Speaker 1: percentage of the American public believes unemployment is high, make

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Speaker 1: it make sense.

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Speaker 4: I'd love to cite the misery index if it was

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Speaker 4: out there, some version of unemployment and inflation, because you're

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Speaker 4: still feeling inflation. I feel that both the print you

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Speaker 4: get from the gas station and maybe if you're at

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Speaker 4: the grocery aisle and you remember what something might have

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Speaker 4: cost three four years ago. Even though the headline number

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Speaker 4: might be down and we might be approaching the low

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Speaker 4: single digits, from what you know the Federal Reserve is observing,

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Speaker 4: it doesn't feel as fantastic as it is out there.

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Speaker 4: Markets are not far from an all time high, inflation

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Speaker 4: is subduing, unemployment is at decades low, but that seems

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Speaker 4: to be cold comfort for small businesses because they can't

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Speaker 4: seem to hire anybody. Airlines and airports are clogged up,

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Speaker 4: their labor bottlenecks everywhere, and it doesn't feel as amazing

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Speaker 4: as the numbers I think would bear out.

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Speaker 2: So that's what I want to ask you.

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Speaker 1: This is like one of the I feel like under

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Speaker 1: reported stories because it's so hard to understand. We have

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Speaker 1: multiple positive indicators and yet many people miserable. So the

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Speaker 1: theory that a lot of people have is that this

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Speaker 1: is just hyperpartisanship, right, that the right hates the market

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Speaker 1: because Biden is president and the left is happy. I mean,

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Speaker 1: is it hyperpartisanship? Is that the way to explain what's happening?

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Speaker 1: Or is it more complicated?

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Speaker 4: I think in fairness, if you think about Trump on

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Speaker 4: the eve of the pandemic, President Trump, the numbers were great,

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Speaker 4: and some people were openly saying, if he could just

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Speaker 4: ride this into November, it should be a lot easier

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Speaker 4: for the incumbent, especially considering the incumbent advantages. Of course,

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Speaker 4: no one imagined COVID and the mishandling of COVID and

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Speaker 4: everything else that would happen to that. I mean again,

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Speaker 4: back in March of twenty twenty, I think we saw

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Speaker 4: unemployment spike to the mid teens in the matter of

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Speaker 4: two weeks. We saw NBC News footage of breadlines of

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Speaker 4: cars around the block looking again donations. It was very

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Speaker 4: short lived and things snap back. I mean, we have

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Speaker 4: had variants and outbreaks and slowdowns and trip ups along

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Speaker 4: the way, but that feeling of freefall was largely arrested

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Speaker 4: and he came out of that. But Trump wasn't the

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Speaker 4: beneficiary of that still. I mean, I think that people

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Speaker 4: felt awful, the masking, the kids, the remote work, and

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Speaker 4: there's certainly a feeling right now. If you fast forward

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Speaker 4: three plus years after that, it doesn't feel like things

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Speaker 4: are back to normal. We don't know the kind of

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Speaker 4: the work from home normal. We don't know what the

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Speaker 4: inflationary normal is. We don't know what the unemployment normal is.

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Speaker 4: We have interest rates which are at multi decade highs,

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Speaker 4: mortgage rates I think at a twenty two year high.

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Speaker 4: A lot of people locked out of the housing market

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Speaker 4: that may have been on their best behavior, like I

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Speaker 4: did a lever up, I didn't go crazy on crypto

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Speaker 4: and NFT, And what's my vindication? What's my motivation right now?

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Speaker 4: And that's really yeah, gotta be frustrating for the Federal

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Speaker 4: Reserve because you take up rates. When you look at

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Speaker 4: my hometown in Miami, you look at other areas, you

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Speaker 4: look at Westchester County, whole prices are still super hot.

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Speaker 4: And this is really vexing for the Federal Reserve.

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Speaker 1: So tell our listeners exactly what happened in Wyoming.

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Speaker 2: The big meeting last week.

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Speaker 4: Not big headline stuff. They're still monitoring inflation. There's news

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Speaker 4: coming out of that that we might be a lot

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Speaker 4: closer to the end of the interest rate hiking cycle,

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Speaker 4: which has been pretty perilous. If you think about taking

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Speaker 4: rates up more than five points in about a year

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Speaker 4: and a half, that was so whiplashing that it brought

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Speaker 4: out actually some of the biggest bank failures in US history.

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Speaker 4: We talk about this normal environment before, with unemployment and inflation,

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Speaker 4: you wouldn't think it would be get the banking crisis

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Speaker 4: that we had in the spring.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about that banking crisis, because there was a

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Speaker 1: lot of anxiety. It was a tech center banking crisis,

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Speaker 1: I would like to point out started with Silicon Valley Bank,

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Speaker 1: spread out to some larger banks, but I think all

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Speaker 1: regional banks. But it was really there was a lot

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Speaker 1: of anxiety that could have spread out even further.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean already the original sin is if we

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Speaker 4: had the too big to fail banks from two thousand

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Speaker 4: and eight and two thousand and nine, I mean the

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Speaker 4: likes of Wells Fargo and JP Morgan Chase, which were

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Speaker 4: too big to fail and then became colossally too big

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Speaker 4: to fail. They were the beneficiaries of all the different failures.

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Speaker 4: If you think about Washington mutual if you think about

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Speaker 4: Bear Stearns, and that was happening kind of in mini

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Speaker 4: replay again as people were taking their money out of

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Speaker 4: smaller banks and kind of this self fulfilling prophecy and

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Speaker 4: plowing it into JP Morgan Chase and Wells Fargo and

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Speaker 4: these other two big to fail banks, and suddenly you

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Speaker 4: have all these other banks out there having to come

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Speaker 4: out and say, look, we're fine, we're good for the money.

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Speaker 4: But you could have a virtual bank run. You could

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Speaker 4: have Twitter do what Twitter does, and suddenly it's self

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Speaker 4: fulfilling prophecy. And I think, Molly, I think somebody should

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Speaker 4: explore at some point to what it extent. And I

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Speaker 4: know this will be controversial. PPP excess had to do

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Speaker 4: with those bank failures because you had these enormous balances

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Speaker 4: and no one had to be mindful of the two

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Speaker 4: hundred and fifty thousand dollars insurance limit until it became

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Speaker 4: an issue. And as I said, we all have smartphones

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Speaker 4: and you can move money in an easier, frictionless fashion.

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Speaker 4: It wasn't like it's a wonderful life where you have

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Speaker 4: to go in and a cost the bank manager, right right, right,

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Speaker 4: And so those problems are still there. We recently had

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Speaker 4: some credit agencies downgrade regional banks, and I think that

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Speaker 4: this is this is a difficult thing. I think low

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Speaker 4: interest rates help helps all sorts of borrowers, all manner

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Speaker 4: of financial institutions. But when you take up rates the

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Speaker 4: way the FED has had to do over the past

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Speaker 4: year and a half, invariably there's going to be significant

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Speaker 4: collateral damage.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to talk to you about that for

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Speaker 1: a minute, because so many things happened this year that

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Speaker 1: were caused by deregulation. So againp loans we can talk about.

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Speaker 2: I'm happy to talk about them.

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Speaker 1: Clearly, that was one of the large or scams perpetrated

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Speaker 1: on the American people.

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Speaker 2: But again we had to do it, and there were

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Speaker 2: good parts of it.

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Speaker 1: You know, the child tax credit was really good, lifted

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Speaker 1: all these people out of poverty. It has now gone,

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Speaker 1: of course, But I want to pause for a minute

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Speaker 1: and instead talk about, like, because this is a particular

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Speaker 1: annoyance of mind, deregulation, because we did really see this

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Speaker 1: year a couple of things that happened as a sort

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Speaker 1: of crescendo to deregulation. Like I'm not going to speak

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Speaker 1: to causality because who knows, but you know, it's certainly

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Speaker 1: like the trained aroundment in Ohio. And we've had others

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Speaker 1: since then. And then really this bank run was because

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Speaker 1: these mid sized banks do not have the same kind

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Speaker 1: of stress tests that the larger banks do.

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Speaker 4: I would not have imagined that, by the way, shame

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Speaker 4: on me, and I covered this industry, and when that

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Speaker 4: stuff happened, I said, you would think that mega regional

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Speaker 4: banks and even smaller regional banks would be susceptible to

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Speaker 4: this idea of stress testing their uninsured deposits. Again, uninsured

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Speaker 4: deposits being an embarrassment of riches. You have some depositors

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Speaker 4: with so much money that they just get complacent and

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Speaker 4: leave several millions of dollars in an account insured for

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Speaker 4: JO hundred and fifty. Isn't that kind of a deminimous

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Speaker 4: check by the Feds. But I found out that there

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Speaker 4: was lobbying to kind of pull back. There were banks,

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Speaker 4: if you look at them four years ago, they were saying,

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Speaker 4: we can't make capital formation, We can't be the lubricants

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Speaker 4: of the economy if you're breathing down our next every quarter.

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Speaker 4: And they got some modicum of relief, and it became

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Speaker 4: did anybody officially call that a Minsky moment? Where you know,

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Speaker 4: stability sows the seeds of its own instability, like complacently explain.

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Speaker 1: The larger Minski for those who are keeping track at home.

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Speaker 4: As I always understood that times of stability and complacency

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Speaker 4: are going to sow their own crises things that happen.

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Speaker 4: You don't have to have crises being long in the

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Speaker 4: making and the rot being out there that people if

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Speaker 4: interest rates are too low, if the calm is for

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Speaker 4: too long, people are gonna try something like the bear

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Speaker 4: Stearns traders did back in two thousand and seven and

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Speaker 4: two thousand and eight and set fire to the entire system.

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Speaker 4: And it's funny to me that an embarrassment of riches.

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Speaker 4: The reason that if you told me to start this year,

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Speaker 4: if we're sitting around on New Year's Eve and you're saying,

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Speaker 4: farz Ad, we're gonna have two or three of the

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Speaker 4: biggest bank failures in history, I would have said it

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Speaker 4: would have been, well a commercial property meltdown, because so

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Speaker 4: many of these buildings are distressed and people are not

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Speaker 4: going back to work. I have zero idea that it

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Speaker 4: was because too much money in accounts and then people

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Speaker 4: getting worried that they're not insured enough and hence the

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Speaker 4: self fulfilling propsy. So why why we're regulators in front

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Speaker 4: of that? And again on the other side, I don't

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Speaker 4: mean to get it inside baseball, is the bankers themselves.

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Speaker 4: We're putting money in at not as you know, treasuries

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Speaker 4: that could be marked down. There should be an ultra

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Speaker 4: liquid short term treasury. So this stuff was like finance

436
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,200
Speaker 4: one oh one. So who's in control here?

437
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,159
Speaker 1: Right? And I think I mean again, it's hard to

438
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,679
Speaker 1: get One of the things we've seen historically is that

439
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,119
Speaker 1: regulators have a hard time getting ahead of crisises. But

440
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 1: in this case, we've had crisises like this fairly recently,

441
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,440
Speaker 1: like the you know, during the Obama administration, for example.

442
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 1: And you really have to wonder how much of this deregulation,

443
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:14,920
Speaker 1: which was.

444
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 2: The central tenant of trump.

445
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,640
Speaker 1: Ism, was due to I mean, remember Trump would get

446
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,879
Speaker 1: up there every day and say and work for every regulation,

447
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 1: We're going to deregulate fifty five things.

448
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,639
Speaker 4: Right, But you know, in the mid nineties, the Clinton's

449
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 4: were deregularly, I mean lar Bob Rubin and others, and

450
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,440
Speaker 4: that that's so the seeds of subprime. Everybody loves low

451
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 4: borrowing costs, low interest rates. That's something that will bring

452
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 4: all wings of all parties. That'll bring AOC and MTG

453
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,360
Speaker 4: together for once. Right, we love we love capital formation.

454
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 4: The problem is that the regulation, as I've said before,

455
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 4: we all end up picking up the tab, whether it's

456
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 4: bank failures, insurance amounts tacked on increasing inflation. I think

457
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,120
Speaker 4: that I don't mean to go back to PPP more

458
00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 4: than I have to, but I think that that is

459
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 4: something that we're all paying for through higher inflation. As

460
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 4: there was such a double triple injection of money into

461
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 4: the economy with fiscal stimulus and monetary stimulus, that it's

462
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,720
Speaker 4: so much harder to kill that inflation down the road.

463
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,479
Speaker 1: Right, But now I want to just sort of pause

464
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,880
Speaker 1: and back up for a second, because a lot of us,

465
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 1: I want to say, like people who worry, not just

466
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 1: exclusively Jews, but my husband and I worry a lot

467
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 1: enough to power a small country.

468
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 4: We're called the clot up in class.

469
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 1: Well except we can't take arpin. But yes, so I

470
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,400
Speaker 1: want to talk about this. There was a real serious

471
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: worry that we were going to step back into the

472
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies and stagflation. I would love you to talk

473
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 1: our listeners through what is stagflation and why is it

474
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:49,399
Speaker 1: not happening now?

475
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 4: Well, I could just sing the song to the sitcom

476
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 4: Good Times, and that will remind you perfect not getting

477
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 4: ass not getting assle that rare laying offs. I mean,

478
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 4: the worst of all possible outcomes is when you have

479
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 4: a declining economy and joblessness and high inflation. I mean,

480
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,399
Speaker 4: you know, Jimmy Carter and his cardigan er, Gerald Ford,

481
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,959
Speaker 4: let's whip inflation. I don't even remember what the vintage

482
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 4: of that was. And the FED is in snake bit

483
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:20,919
Speaker 4: territory because what am I going to do? Do I

484
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 4: kill inflation first, or do I prioritize stimulus because they're

485
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 4: inversely proportional. If I pomp money into the economy, it's

486
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 4: going to add to this double digit inflation, and so

487
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 4: it's it's the most intractable problem for the FED. We

488
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 4: had a taste of that this time around, I think,

489
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 4: with inflation reaching highs unseen since the early eighties. But

490
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 4: at the same time, unemployment was breaking well below four percent,

491
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 4: so it wasn't like we were at you know, high

492
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 4: single digit unemployment and high single digit inflation.

493
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 2: We did not.

494
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 1: Fall into stagnation because our employment was so good.

495
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,439
Speaker 4: I think it feels like that for a lot of people.

496
00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 4: I think there is some cold comfort for you know,

497
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,159
Speaker 4: you've discussed in your columns the catch up for wage

498
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 4: workers and service workers and people for finally got some

499
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,360
Speaker 4: vindication that fifteen was the new ten or the new

500
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 4: seven to fifty, and increasingly you can't even hire people

501
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 4: for fifteen dollars. But the rest of people out there,

502
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 4: they're saying, well, I might not be unemployed, but inflation

503
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 4: has eaten so much into my buying power when I

504
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 4: travel or take my kids out for panera or something

505
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 4: like that, that it feels like I'm in a stagflationary environment.

506
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 4: Think how awful it is if you do lose your job.

507
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 4: And we did have a ton of tech layoffs last year,

508
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 4: but by and large people have been able to readjust

509
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 4: and find jobs. So this would have been a lot worse.

510
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 4: This difficulty for the FED. I mean, if you had

511
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 4: to pick your battle, but one dragon versus the other,

512
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 4: unemployment versus inflation, that.

513
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 3: Would have been scary.

514
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 4: Fortunately, we have not seen that yet in fact, I

515
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 4: would say the FED would gladly trade some bit of

516
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 4: higher unemployment, even though it won't say it on the record,

517
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 4: for inflation to get back down to two percent.

518
00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 2: Right and raising the raids again.

519
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: This is this dance of raising the rates and trying

520
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 1: to keep from tipping into recession.

521
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 4: It's such a delicate, delicate game. I wish, and I

522
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 4: know Jerome Powell wishes he had more precise levers to pull,

523
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 4: like things that could specifically address housing without killing off

524
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,120
Speaker 4: small banks or small and medium sized businesses that are

525
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 4: credit worthy that can't get loans right now because of

526
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 4: the banking swoon itself in the Spring was a form

527
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,959
Speaker 4: of tightening onto itself. These banks became chastened and at

528
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 4: the same time that they saw the FED take up rates.

529
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 4: So it's still an imperfect tool. When the FED takes

530
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 4: rates down to zero, you invariably get these crazy asset

531
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 4: bubbles that come out of it, which might create their

532
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 4: own various Minsky moments. And I look back, Molly on

533
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 4: the last twenty five years. We've just had a rolling

534
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 4: set of emergency interest rate policies and asset bubbles. And

535
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 4: the cosmic question to me is, what is normal. What

536
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 4: is the baseline? What is the equilibrium carrying capacity of

537
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 4: the United States economy without extraordinary FED intervention? And that,

538
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 4: alongside other trauma, keeps me up at night.

539
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 1: I want to talk for another minute about inflation. One

540
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: of the things that I think really is a cause

541
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 1: of inflation, and we just don't talk about enough. Is

542
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: this pumping money into the economy, this printing money, this

543
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 1: juicing the public markets, which is modern monetary policy, right.

544
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:27,959
Speaker 4: Right, And yeah, there used to be taboos. We used

545
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 4: to have something called moral hazard where the FED doesn't

546
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 4: want to seem like it's backstopping speculators and investors. But

547
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 4: so much of that was shattered after the Wall Street bailouts.

548
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 4: In the case of PPP, one of the dangerous precedents

549
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 4: here is that we don't have business interruption insurance. If

550
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 4: there's another pandemic that comes across the Atlantic and takes

551
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 4: unemployment up to fifteen percent of a week, again, the

552
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 4: only option we had was for Congress to step in

553
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 4: and effectively nationalize insurance, and that wasn't solved. I mean

554
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 4: that was just kicked down the road, and clearly with

555
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 4: the effects of inflation, I think it was a a really.

556
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 4: I mean, in the fog of war, you have to

557
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 4: make emergency decisions, but we're still paying for it.

558
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about insurance because you've

559
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: just hit on one of Jesse and I's favorite anxieties,

560
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: climate change is here. Insurance companies seem to be the

561
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 1: only people who are not in denial. We got gas companies,

562
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: oil companies. They are not going to meet their climate

563
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 1: goals quote unquote meet. I mean, sure, whatever, if you're

564
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 1: just gonna lie, let's just lie.

565
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 2: But I want to ask you about insurance companies.

566
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: We are seeing in Florida the insurance market just creater.

567
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 1: This looks like it could be a huge economic crisis.

568
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 4: Very few people realized there was a smallish hurricane I

569
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 4: think in two thousand and five or two thousand and six,

570
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 4: was it Wilma that then kind of led to the

571
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 4: moment of insurers pulling out, and that may have finally

572
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 4: caused the housing crisis ground zero in my hometown, you know,

573
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 4: in South Florida in the aughts. But what's happening right

574
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 4: now is just orders of magnitude larger than any bubble

575
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 4: you ever had. In Miami with millionaires and finance people

576
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 4: and Citadel and tech bros going down there. And you

577
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 4: can look at the Wall Street Journal every day and

578
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 4: look at a record mansion in Coral Gables or Miami Beach,

579
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 4: a demo job or an area of high flood risk,

580
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 4: and properties keep going up, and it seems to be

581
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 4: like the greater full theory, like I'm just going to

582
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 4: build this and flip it to the next guy. Climate

583
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 4: change be damned. We've done several episodes where we talk

584
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 4: to developers and real estate people, and I was shocked

585
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,239
Speaker 4: when I learned that, you know, Argentines and Venezuelans and

586
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 4: say Brazilians of money have a certain predilection for new

587
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 4: high rises that have elevated garages at the bottom where

588
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 4: if something happens, you can you know, the building manager

589
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 4: will call you in South America and say, look, I'll

590
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 4: just take the car up the garage and then we'll padlock,

591
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 4: you know, all the shutters and the thing, and it's

592
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 4: not your problem. What happens street level with flooding is

593
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 4: is for for hoyp. Beloy, and the chief motivation there

594
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 4: is to just protect your money from South American inflation

595
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 4: or creeping expropriation. And you have a lot of people,

596
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 4: a lot of consumers like that right now, that are

597
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 4: coming into places and just devouring the housing market. And

598
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 4: I wonder, at what point what gives if you can't

599
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 4: buy homeowners insurance? Can you you know, does the bank

600
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 4: get involved, like you're not credit worthy? We're not going

601
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 4: to issue a mortgage if you don't have it. So

602
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 4: this this is fascinating to me. But I've been trying

603
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 4: to cop off.

604
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 2: And does a government step in.

605
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 4: Well with flood insurance?

606
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 1: It does right, right, So if they're going to if

607
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 1: they stepped in with flood insurance, you could see a

608
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: world where they then step in. I mean, if we're

609
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 1: just going to protect wealthy people's investments.

610
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 4: Here's a problem. Like if I take Miami in isolation,

611
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 4: it used to be the province of people in Golden

612
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 4: Beach and Sunny Aisles and the ones who lived on

613
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 4: a one A who could afford you know, federal flood insurance,

614
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 4: which is expensive, but it's sold by Uncle Sam. Now

615
00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 4: you could go well Inland on days when there's no

616
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 4: rain and find water gurgling up because of King Tide.

617
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 4: And it's everybody's problem, and small and medium sized businesses

618
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 4: at homeowners cannot afford that kind of premium insurance, so

619
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 4: at some point it has to force people out of

620
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 4: the market. But that has not happened yet.

621
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 2: Oh Jesus, oh so much more to worry about. Thank

622
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 2: you for joining. I hope you'll come back.

623
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 4: Thank you, Molly, I Will.

624
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: Martin Panjelli is The Guardian's Washington breaking news correspondent.

625
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 2: Welcome too fast Politics, Martin.

626
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 6: Thank you for having me. It's a question.

627
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: I'm so happy to have you here. We're actually real

628
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: friends in real life, but you also cover everything. So

629
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 1: besides being real friends in real life, you are also

630
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: really have your finger on everything that's going on, and

631
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 1: there's quite a lot going on. I think we should

632
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 1: start with the Leonard Leo for the people who are

633
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: not just completely read in on Leonard Leo, just give

634
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: us the top lines.

635
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 6: It's kind of app that I would do that. One

636
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 6: of my main job at The Guardian is to cover

637
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 6: everything quickly.

638
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 2: Right, good, perfect, let's go kind of help.

639
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 6: So, in terms of covering Lenard Leo quickly, Leonard Leo

640
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 6: is the man behind the Federalist Society, the man behind

641
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 6: Trump's Supreme Court list, right wing Catholic activist who is

642
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 6: phenomenally successful in attracting money to his various courses. He

643
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 6: throw a Lebyrinthine process. Earlier this year, it was reported

644
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,720
Speaker 6: that he had attracted a one point six billion dollar

645
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 6: gift for the biggest ever such.

646
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 2: Not from Harlan Crow.

647
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 6: Not from Harlan Crow, but he is connected to Arlin Crow.

648
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:41,760
Speaker 6: He does pop up Harlan Crow circles. That was mcguy

649
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 6: called State Bar. He pops up everywhere there is a

650
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 6: Supreme Court ethics story.

651
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 2: Is a good sign.

652
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 6: Yeah, he pops up every time there's a Supreme Court

653
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 6: nomination obviously for all the past three anyway, not including

654
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 6: Kathandy Bran Jackson three, Trump one. So he's got his

655
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 6: finger a lot of pies. And the thing that caused

656
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 6: everyone's attention last week and I ended up writing about,

657
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 6: but I very explicitly was right about it, because Politico

658
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 6: did the reporting was that the DC Attorney General is

659
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 6: looking into Leo's some of Leo's arrangements now in how

660
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 6: the nonprofits speak to each other. And the report was very,

661
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 6: very impressive, and the Guardian swooped and the Guardian did

662
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 6: its thing, which is this is what's happening. Quickly. Here

663
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 6: is the political report. It's an amazing report. I recommend

664
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 6: reading it. Nobody's none of the big names have matched it.

665
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 6: Yet it goes off into a world of registrations of

666
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 6: nonprofits in things like strip malls in Texas, which is phenomenal.

667
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 6: I just I was reading it and thinking about better

668
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 6: call Saul and giggling.

669
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 2: Let's stop and just pull back for a minute.

670
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 3: Here.

671
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: This is like when you have a super pack and

672
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 1: the super pac is not allowed to speak to the candidate.

673
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 2: It's these kind of rules, right.

674
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 6: It's that kind of thing. It's that kind of world

675
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 6: of what communicates with what, what gives what to what?

676
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,319
Speaker 6: In this case, there's been the question is it's one

677
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 6: arm of the empire feeding money to another arm of

678
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 6: the empire, which maybe it shouldn't or maybe it should.

679
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 6: I don't, I don't know. I was getting lost in

680
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:11,359
Speaker 6: the thickets of it. I mean, with such a big

681
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 6: empire and such such amounts of money switching around, and

682
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 6: you know, a democratic is only general in DC who

683
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 6: has reason to want to have a look and who

684
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 6: has a background in the Justice Department, in tax law.

685
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,399
Speaker 6: That's where this is started to head.

686
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 1: It definitely seems like and again I'm not a tax lawyer,

687
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 1: nor do I play one on television, but it does

688
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 1: seem a lot of this staff is taking nonprofit status

689
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 1: for things that are clearly political.

690
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 6: Yes, I mean, but that's a nonprofit world, doesn't it.

691
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 6: I mean. One of Leo's defenses, which he's given to us,

692
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 6: not to me, is reportable to one of my fellow reporters,

693
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 6: Chris McGreal was. He basically says, you know, dark money

694
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 6: is dark money. It's always been around. I'm batting my side,

695
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 6: you bat yours, which is cynical sense, correct, right, I.

696
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 1: Mean, technically this money is supposed to be helping like

697
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 1: starving children.

698
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 6: Depends on right.

699
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: I mean technically nonprofit money is theoretically you're supposed to

700
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 1: go to things that are a political or at least

701
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 1: animal shelter, starving children, hospitals, things where there's not a

702
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: political band. We've gone down rabbit hole where things have

703
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: gotten further and further away from what they're meant to be.

704
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 6: I suppose it's about advancing causes, and that's how you

705
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 6: head down the rabbit hole. I did notice in some

706
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 6: reading that I thought made laugh federalist society which she

707
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 6: looks a slightly different to appear on propit. But it's

708
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 6: the legal Activism does say on its website the Federalist

709
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 6: Society does not take political positions. So that chimed with

710
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:46,399
Speaker 6: me because I work for The Guardian, So I work

711
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 6: for a newspaper that takes political positions, which in America

712
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 6: sometimes say they don't.

713
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 1: I want to sort of move on from this and

714
00:37:55,080 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 1: talk about the New York constant clip of legal problems

715
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 1: that Donald Trump has. But let's just get us up

716
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 1: to speed on where we are with Trump's most recent

717
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 1: legal stuff.

718
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 6: From my position sitting as a breaking news guy, his

719
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 6: legal stuff is constantly breaking. I'm constantly scrambling to catch

720
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 6: up with it. I'm instantly updating my totals of indictments

721
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 6: to get it right and sorry, totals of charges and

722
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 6: under indictment.

723
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 2: So give us account right now.

724
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 6: Account right now is ninety one.

725
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 1: Ninety one counts, four indictments, one superseding.

726
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 6: Four indictments, one superseding. I listened to your conversation with

727
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,759
Speaker 6: George Comways and made a mental note not to say

728
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,320
Speaker 6: four indictments.

729
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 1: Well, I mean there, it's technically either for I mean whatever,

730
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 1: at this level, I feel like you can the way.

731
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 6: I've been iumerating it, and again I think this maybe

732
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 6: is how breaking news reporters can serve a reader quite

733
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 6: quite well, is to keep account of just precisely what

734
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 6: is true. So he has four areas of criminal legal jeopardy.

735
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 6: He's got deral elections subversion, state election subversion meaning Georgia.

736
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,439
Speaker 6: He's got retention of classified information. He's got the hush

737
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:09,319
Speaker 6: money payments to Stormy Downers, who I keep referring to

738
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,399
Speaker 6: as a porn star in copy and keep getting told

739
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 6: I can't do that because with the Guardian, she's an

740
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 6: adult filmmaker. What I find fascinating, obviously the procession of

741
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:19,879
Speaker 6: trials that's coming on those subject to legal ranking about

742
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 6: when they will happen. I keep remembering. You also have

743
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 6: to remember and mention the other stuff. So you have

744
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 6: to you have to tell the readers that there are

745
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,359
Speaker 6: various cases going on about his business affairs, and there

746
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 6: is the other defamation trial coming in the Eugene Carroll case,

747
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 6: in which you can say he's been adjudicated a rapist.

748
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:38,439
Speaker 6: It's absolutely staggering, and it doesn't stop getting staggering every

749
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:40,840
Speaker 6: time you do it. I've already done it once this

750
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 6: morning for the website before coming on here, you know,

751
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,720
Speaker 6: enumerating the whole thing, following the whole thing at the Guardian.

752
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 6: The heavy repertorial lifting on Trump is done by Hugo Lowell,

753
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 6: who I think has been.

754
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 2: On Yes, and he's a close personal friend of mine.

755
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 6: Yes, I wanted to. I wanted to introduce myself by

756
00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 6: saying I'm not as well informed as Hugo Lowell and

757
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 6: not as funny and done.

758
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 1: But that is not true. You are as funny as

759
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,359
Speaker 1: Ian Done you done? I actually had had dinner with

760
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 1: when I was in the UK, and he's very funny.

761
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 1: Now I kind of want to talk about UK politics,

762
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 1: but I don't think we should. Oh, last week GB

763
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 1: News asked me to come on GB News. Is this

764
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 1: basically Rupert Murdock trying to get Fox News in the UK?

765
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 2: Is that fair?

766
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 6: It's the Fox News clone.

767
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:30,919
Speaker 1: Right, and it's created almost entirely to try to sell

768
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 1: Brexit to the British people.

769
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 2: The only famous anchor.

770
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 1: They have is a man called Nigel Farage, who was

771
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:43,439
Speaker 1: most famous for Brexit and before that being a low

772
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 1: level mp EP.

773
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 6: Ironically he ran I think it's seven parliamentary campaigns for

774
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 6: that winning. I'd have to double check that with that

775
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:55,800
Speaker 6: figure famous never winning, but also first fair for winning

776
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 6: for getting Brexit. You know. I was also thinking before

777
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 6: coming out about how many of my little biases can

778
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 6: come out as report it again. I'm so quite a few.

779
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,319
Speaker 6: I'm allowed to have them. There are no words to

780
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 6: describe how I personally never mind in my personal job,

781
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 6: whether that's from regard and so it doesn't matter. There

782
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 6: are no words to describe how much I loathe Brexit.

783
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 6: That's coming from me who's a privileged guy who moved

784
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 6: to New York eleven years ago now lives in DC.

785
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 6: You know, left the scene, not part of the argument,

786
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 6: but I just.

787
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:29,879
Speaker 1: So I need to now tell this story. I go

788
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 1: on gb News when they ask me. My thinking is,

789
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,319
Speaker 1: as long as I don't promote it, I am on

790
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 1: their airwaves, and I am you know, I might.

791
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:42,760
Speaker 2: Be the only sane person they ever see. So I go.

792
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,360
Speaker 1: On the other day and usually they put me with

793
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,359
Speaker 1: like more of a newsy cruise, so you know, we'll

794
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 1: have our disagreements, but the questions won't be quite so slanted.

795
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 2: On this time, I.

796
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 1: Was on with like a very opinionated guy who and

797
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 1: the package before. You know, they aired a little package

798
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 1: before and it was jaw droppingly terrible. It was a

799
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 1: package about how immigrants are coming from North Africa and

800
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 1: they're making it so that women can't wear bathing suits.

801
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 1: I mean, it was like just about the most racist

802
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 1: thing I had ever seen. By the time they got

803
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: to me, I was so enraged and it was just

804
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 1: like the most blatant, disgusting I mean it was like

805
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 1: literally being in the opinion section of the New York

806
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,720
Speaker 1: Post and they started talking about how much the Biden

807
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:31,879
Speaker 1: is demented and.

808
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:33,359
Speaker 2: Old and dah dah dah.

809
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 1: And I said, you know, our inflation is three you know,

810
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 1: three percent a little more. I mean, you know they're

811
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 1: different inflationary statistics, but you know your your inflation rate

812
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:48,399
Speaker 1: is many multiples more than ours. I said, like, if

813
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 1: he's so demented, why can't you guys have lower inflation?

814
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,280
Speaker 1: You know, why is our monetary policy kicking your ass?

815
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 2: And he was so furious with May.

816
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:00,719
Speaker 1: And then we went down and I said, you know,

817
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 1: is it because you've sanctioned yourselves by leaving Europe? And

818
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 1: he just got more mad at me and I just

819
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 1: got worse and worse as an interview went on, as.

820
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 6: It were, you're doing the Lord's work. I went on

821
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 6: there last summer when Liz Trust was heading for Downing Street.

822
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 6: I've told everybody this, obviously proud of myself. I knew

823
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:24,760
Speaker 6: Liz Trust growing up. She's my friend Chris's older sister,

824
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,759
Speaker 6: and knew her and liked her and didn't know her

825
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 6: that particularly while she was old than me. But I

826
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 6: saw her here and there, saw her once we grew up,

827
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 6: moved to London, saw her a party so on, had

828
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 6: entertaining political arguments because she was a conservative and I'm not.

829
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 6: And then last summer, I kind of having not said

830
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 6: anything in public about about this Trust, she started criticizing

831
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 6: the area we come from in Leeds in the north

832
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,759
Speaker 6: and the school we went to criticizing it in contestable

833
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 6: terms and also outright false terms about the seat in

834
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 6: the school. So I had a crack in a Guardian

835
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 6: op ed and in the fallout from that, and as

836
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 6: she got closer to Downing Street, I went on GP

837
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 6: News in a few other places to talk about it.

838
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 6: And it was fine for me because they were just asking,

839
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 6: they were trying to sort of needle me a bit

840
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 6: about calling me a Guardian lefty and stuff, but I

841
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 6: am it went okay. I try not to overstate and

842
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:16,719
Speaker 6: the thing I told them why people in round Hay

843
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 6: and Leeds were upset with it too much. But I

844
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 6: did get a note from Guardian in London saying it

845
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 6: or really we don't do GPS. Do Fox News. I

846
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 6: can do GP.

847
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 4: I mean I do.

848
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 1: Think like it is one of these questions of what

849
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 1: is diminishing returns? Right?

850
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 2: I mean, what is okay and what is not okay?

851
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, it sounds like you had a bunch stickier, but.

852
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 1: It is like and I'd love to like pull out

853
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 1: and just talk about Jessic, my friend Jessica who is

854
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 1: the liberal on Fox News, and she really, Jessica Tarloff

855
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 1: really does do God's work on there. You've seen many

856
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 1: clips of her on The Five, which is a really

857
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 1: highly rated show. Millions of people watching that show, or

858
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:06,799
Speaker 1: at least million of people watching that show, and she

859
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,840
Speaker 1: is actually demnking these claims, which opens the door of

860
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 1: the question and again was pee budajiitch too, Like how

861
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 1: much should these two media ecosystems interact and what is

862
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 1: positive and what is negative.

863
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 6: I think we should interact as much as possible. I

864
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:24,360
Speaker 6: do think that. I know there are dangers, I know

865
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 6: there are pitfalls, but I really think liberals should talk

866
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 6: to conservatives ad vice versa. It just stands to reason

867
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 6: to me, you should be able to have a disagreement

868
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 6: and stay civil. And even if you don't stay civil,

869
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 6: it's good TV, right, I mean, look at that, it's

870
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 6: just not talking the other side seems wrong to me.

871
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 6: I blatant self promotional alarm going it is. I've had

872
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 6: ten eleven years here, and as a side project, I

873
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 6: started writing about rugby ten years ago. I'll keep this brief,

874
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,800
Speaker 6: but it has actually led me writing about rugby and

875
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 6: writing about West Point Rugby at the Academy into a

876
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:00,840
Speaker 6: lot of places where Guardian reporters don't always go into

877
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 6: small town America. Trump signed in the Rockery America in

878
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:08,439
Speaker 6: western Pennsylvania, say, or in California, in Orange County, where

879
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:12,240
Speaker 6: Reagan said good Republicans go to die when they're other places,

880
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:15,240
Speaker 6: small town Jersey, lots of places, lots of people who

881
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 6: are not the people I would say every day. Is

882
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 6: that a phrase I don't like, right?

883
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:23,320
Speaker 2: But it's really it is very important.

884
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 1: And it's funny because it's like, I think about this

885
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 1: luck because I have one kid who is involved, at

886
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 1: least tandentially in the military, and he tells me what

887
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 1: his friends, who a lot of his friends are the

888
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:38,800
Speaker 1: kids of the military, And he told me this amazing

889
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 1: thing which I think I hadn't seen reported anywhere, which

890
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 1: is that these military families, and I assume other people

891
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 1: in the military too, are furious with Tommy Tubervel for

892
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,959
Speaker 1: what he's done, and that politicizing the military is one

893
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 1: of the greatest crimes you can commit against the military,

894
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:02,360
Speaker 1: and so to Bervail has really become this huge villain

895
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 1: in the world of the military. And when Ron DeSantis

896
00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:12,160
Speaker 1: said he's supported Tuberville's kind of the way that Tuberville

897
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:17,360
Speaker 1: was shutting down the military, it made my kid, whose

898
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 1: name I will not mention because he's already going to

899
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 1: be screaming at me about this, made him not like

900
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 1: DeSantis anymore, because here was a guy who was putting

901
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 1: politics over military. So that was something I would never

902
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 1: have known.

903
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's adjacent to something I learned. I think it

904
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 6: was Simour hersh who I read at some point said

905
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 6: in the discussion. The thing you have to when you're

906
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 6: reporting on the US military, you have to understand they

907
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 6: don't do irony. They don't do it. It's like they

908
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 6: mean it basically. And I learned that going into West

909
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:46,760
Speaker 6: Point seven eight years ago, quickly going out and talking

910
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 6: to these guys from a team twenty years ago. They

911
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 6: don't do irony. They mean it like someone from one

912
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,320
Speaker 6: group going to another gap saying the other way. It's

913
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,759
Speaker 6: it's incumbent on you to understand that. You don't have

914
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:59,439
Speaker 6: to accept everything. You don't have to repeat the line.

915
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:01,839
Speaker 6: But you're talking to people who believe a thing. So

916
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 6: why do they believe that? What does that belief make

917
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 6: them do? How can you discuss various things? You know,

918
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:09,279
Speaker 6: discussing with these West Point guys discussing the rights and

919
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:12,359
Speaker 6: wrongs of the Iraq war is on one level, guys

920
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 6: who fought. They're talking to me, a guy literally literal

921
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 6: bearded lefty from with the forum we've got. We're talking

922
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 6: because of rugby, but then it goes wider than that.

923
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 6: We have We've had some fascinating conversations over the time,

924
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:30,239
Speaker 6: and it's just all goes back to the original point

925
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:32,759
Speaker 6: here of do you talk to Fox? Do you talk

926
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 6: to GP News? Do you talk to I'm not sure

927
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:36,959
Speaker 6: about news, Maximo.

928
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:39,880
Speaker 2: Am that's a bridge too far.

929
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 6: But I'm trying to get the pr agent at the

930
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:44,759
Speaker 6: moment for the book to get me onto some into

931
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:46,839
Speaker 6: some right, into some conservative media. I think I should

932
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 6: conservatives read books.

933
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:52,640
Speaker 2: Too, exactly. Thank you so much, Martin. I hope you'll

934
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 2: come back.

935
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:55,279
Speaker 6: Absolutely, thank you very much for having me.

936
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 3: He can Molly jung Fast. Rudy Juliati, a guy who

937
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:07,960
Speaker 3: would you read nearly every article accounting of him, is

938
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 3: drinking and smoking a cigar. I'm going to be shocked

939
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 3: to tell you this.

940
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 6: Yes, Jack Smith is investigating some of the things he

941
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 6: does while he's very very.

942
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:18,239
Speaker 2: Drug I'm very unsurprised.

943
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 1: Anyone who has seen Rudy's YouTube channel, which you and

944
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:25,880
Speaker 1: I both have, unfortunately, can attest to the fact that

945
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:28,400
Speaker 1: Rudy does a lot of things under the influence.

946
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 2: And you heard it here ninety nine. But it is

947
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:32,359
Speaker 2: our moment of fook.

948
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

949
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday and Friday to hear the best minds

950
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 1: in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you

951
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:46,240
Speaker 1: enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend

952
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:49,840
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. And again thanks for listening.