1 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,799 Speaker 1: At nine pm on October thirtieth, nineteen ninety four, Marcus 2 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: Boyd and Greg Elking were on Marcus's porch in Saint 3 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: Louis when two men approached them. Both were carrying guns 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: and wearing masks that covered all but their eyes. Greg 5 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:25,280 Speaker 1: Elking ran off as shots rang out and Marcus was killed. 6 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: Marcus's girlfriend was upstairs and was immediately available to the 7 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: police when they asked who might have done it. She 8 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: claimed that Marcus may have had a drug dispute with 9 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: his friend, Lamar Johnson. After the only eyewitness, Greg Elkin, 10 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,480 Speaker 1: viewed a photo lineup, a man named Philip Campbell, along 11 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:47,520 Speaker 1: with Lamar Johnson were arrested, and Elking identified both men 12 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:50,919 Speaker 1: in a live lineup. Lamar maintained that he had been 13 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: miles away at the time of the crime, but at trial, 14 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: the lead detective testified that a round trip to the 15 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: scene of the crime could have taken Lamar less than 16 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: five minutes, making his guilt plausible. A jailhouse informant also 17 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: said that he had overheard Lamar confessing to the murder, 18 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 1: but the most incriminating testimony of all came from Greg Elkin. 19 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: Although he didn't see the shooters faces behind their masks. 20 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: Elking said he recognized Lamar easily because of a distinctive 21 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 1: lazy eye. The eyewitness testimony was damning. After all, there 22 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 1: couldn't possibly be any incentive for someone to make up 23 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: something like that. But this is wrongful conviction. Welcome back 24 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 1: to wrongful conviction. I'm Lauren Bret Pacheco, broadcast journalist and 25 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: host of the podcast's Murder in Oregon, Murder in Illinois, 26 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: and Murder in Miami, and I am so excited to 27 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: be filling in for Jason Flahm in today's case. Irrefutable 28 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: evidence of innocence, as well as an eventual confession from 29 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 1: both of the actual assailants were not enough to receive 30 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,799 Speaker 1: a new trial. It took twenty eight years a new 31 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:15,399 Speaker 1: legislation for justice to finally be done in the Missouri 32 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: appellate system. And we are honored to be joined by 33 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: its survivor, Lamar Johnson. 34 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 2: Welcome Heah, thank you for having us. 35 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: It's an honor. And the other half of us refers 36 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 1: to Lamar's attorney from Morgan Pilot in Kansas City, who's 37 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: also on the board of the Midwest Innocence Project. Lindsay Rynolds, 38 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to the show. 39 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 3: Thank you so much. 40 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: So, Lamar, if we can just go back. I know 41 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: that you are forty nine now correct, Yes, and this 42 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: happened when you were twenty, So just explain a little 43 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: bit about who you were at the age of twenty, 44 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:54,959 Speaker 1: where you were living, what you were doing, and what 45 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: you were about at that point in your life. 46 00:02:57,600 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 2: I was kind of like a lot of people from 47 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 2: the in his cities at that age. I was, I 48 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 2: was working, I was in school, but I was also, 49 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 2: you know, trying to hustle a little bit because that 50 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 2: was the probably the height of the cracker and so, 51 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 2: like a lot of kids in the neighborhood, I was 52 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:15,799 Speaker 2: trying to make a little money on the side, and 53 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 2: of course that you know, puts me in the crosshourds 54 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 2: of some police officers in my neighborhood. Yeah. 55 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 3: The detective that was leading this investigation, Detective Joseph Nickerson, 56 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 3: you know, a long time veteran by the time he 57 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 3: retired of the Saint Louis City Police Department. He knew 58 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 3: Lamar before. There was this group of young men, the 59 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 3: usual suspects for anything that happened within that neighborhood. They 60 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 3: were brought in, called down to the police station over anything, 61 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 3: whether or not they were even just because they were 62 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 3: a group of you know, young black men from the 63 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 3: wrong part of town. 64 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 1: And our audience may recall the name Joseph Nickerson from 65 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: the wrongful conviction of Billy Allen, who continues to languish 66 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: on federal death row, will have his episode linked in 67 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: the bio so they can further acquaint themselves with Detective Nickerson, 68 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: who is actually on the Saint Louis DIA's do not 69 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: testify list due to credibility issues. And just like Marcus 70 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 1: and Lamar, Billy Allen was also dealing drugs, so it 71 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 1: seems like Nickerson had a type now, Lamar, I understand 72 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 1: it was easy for Nickerson to make a connection between 73 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:30,840 Speaker 1: you and the victim in this case, Marcus Boyd. Not 74 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: only were you guys both selling drugs at the time, 75 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: but you were really close friends. In fact, you were 76 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: almost like family through a woman named Leslie Williams, who 77 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: was the mother of Marcus's child. 78 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, he was dating Leslie Williams, the cousin of Pamela Williams, 79 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 2: and I have a daughter by Pamela Williams. Pam and 80 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,919 Speaker 2: Leslie lived together, so that's how we met, probably about 81 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 2: five years before then. We just really good, came close. 82 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: Did you have a falling out of sorts? Before he 83 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: was murdered? 84 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,600 Speaker 2: Marcus and I never had a fallen out on an argument, never. 85 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,840 Speaker 1: Yet an alleged rift between you two over drugs was 86 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 1: eventually used as a motive for what happened on October thirtieth, 87 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:17,039 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four, at around nine pm. At this time, 88 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: Leslie Williams was in the apartment that she shared with 89 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: Marcus Boyd bathing their baby, while Marcus was downstairs on 90 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: their porch on Louisiana Avenue, and a man named Greg 91 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: Elkin was there to repay Marcus for some crack. So 92 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,799 Speaker 1: they were talking when two armed men approached in black 93 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 1: ski masks that covered everything but their eyes. One ordered 94 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: Greg off the porch. They fatally shot Marcus and ran off, 95 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: and obviously Leslie came running down to the porch, and. 96 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 2: Once the shooting store, she ran downstairs and she was 97 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:51,359 Speaker 2: able to see the gunman on the porch shooting, but 98 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 2: she couldn't make out who they were. And you know, 99 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 2: I guess the routine question that officers ask say, well, 100 00:05:57,839 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 2: you know, who do you think might have something to 101 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 2: do with and she just, you know, she just said Lamars. 102 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 2: She couldn't think of anybody else. She didn' couldn't think 103 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 2: of any reason. And she was asked about that, well, 104 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 2: why did you think that I didn't have any reason? 105 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 2: They didn't owe each other any money or drugs or 106 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 2: anything like that. So I just think that this in 107 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 2: my name that came to her mind. 108 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: And it would have been very difficult to identify you 109 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: because both of the gunmen were wearing masks. 110 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 2: That's true. 111 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: Plus you were almost three miles away at the time 112 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: with your youngest daughter and her mother, Erica Barrow, while 113 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: also handling some business of your own. 114 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I got a call from a guy I had 115 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 2: just met, and he wanted to purchase some crime, and 116 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 2: I arranged to meet him at a corner of thirty 117 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 2: ninth and Lafayette. And it just happens that at that 118 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:52,839 Speaker 2: corner of a friend of ours lived at that apartment too, 119 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 2: and so I just told Erica to come with us, 120 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 2: her and a baby to come with us, and we 121 00:06:57,560 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 2: went to that apartment and so that I could kind 122 00:06:59,960 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 2: of visit the friend and also meet with this person. 123 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: And it was during this five minute span where your 124 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: whereabouts could not be accounted for by Erica Barrow, that 125 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: the state eventually alleged that you had sped from Lafayette 126 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: and thirty ninth Street, picked up the actual other assailant 127 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: in the case, Philip Campbell, changed into dark clothing, put 128 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: on masks, pulled up at Marcus's, and killed him in 129 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 1: front of his apartment at thirty nine ten, Louisiana, which 130 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: was what like two point seven miles away? 131 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, two to three miles away. 132 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: And so how long would it have actually taken you 133 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: to get there and get back? Realistically? 134 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 3: I don't know that. 135 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 2: I know that Lindsley and I don't have driven at distance. 136 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 2: I know the Prosecutor's office has driven. In fact, I 137 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 2: mean the Attorney General's office even drove it a different 138 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 2: and I know that you couldn't have done it in 139 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 2: five minutes, let alone to two to three minutes that 140 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 2: Detective Nicholson testified a trial that it could have been driven. 141 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: Right, simple Google search sets distance at two point seven miles, 142 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: taking at least ten minutes by car, making a twenty 143 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: minute round trip so pure math, this is impossible. Now, Lamar, 144 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: this was your really close friend who had just been shot. 145 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 1: And I understand you found out about it right away. 146 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 2: Well, I learned after I went out and met with 147 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 2: this person and made the deal and came back in, 148 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 2: I received the call from my oldest daughter's mother and 149 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 2: she told me that Marcus had been a shot. She 150 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 2: also said that Marcus's girlfriend had said that she thought 151 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 2: that maybe I had something to do with it. So 152 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:33,719 Speaker 2: I actually, I said, well, what happened to Marcus? And 153 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 2: she said he was outside with the white guy and 154 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 2: he got shot. And then I said, I asked, well, 155 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 2: did you think I had something to do with him? 156 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 2: When she said yeah, I said why did you think that? 157 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 2: And she said, well, I couldn't think of anybody else, so. 158 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 1: She didn't see what happened, but for whatever reason, she 159 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: decided that there was some kind of an issue between 160 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: you and Marcus, and that started this chain of events. Basically, essentially, 161 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: that's what happened, and you were all ready a known 162 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: entity to the lead detective on this case, Joe Nickerson, 163 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: so that's all he needed to hear. 164 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 3: I mean, the investigation for what it was was started 165 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 3: and ended at the scene that night. Honestly, Lamar Johnson's name, 166 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 3: you know, is in that first police report from the scene, 167 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 3: before the eyewitness had even been identified, let alone found 168 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 3: and interviewed. And so when a single eyewitness in a 169 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 3: case hasn't even been identified by name, and they have 170 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 3: their suspect, I mean, that's not an investigation designed to 171 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 3: find facts, in my view. 172 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: And when they located Greg Elkin, the eyewitness a couple 173 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: of days later, what did he say? 174 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,680 Speaker 3: He says what would be expected knowing the facts of 175 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 3: this case, which is, I couldn't identify anybody. I couldn't 176 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 3: see I didn't recognize them. They were masked. I can't 177 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 3: help That's what he's saying when he's first contacted, which 178 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 3: makes perfect sense. 179 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: But then later that day Elkin and his wife met 180 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 1: Nickerson at a diner and he was shown in array 181 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: which included and Philip Campbell, but according to Elking, he 182 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 1: made no identification. As it came out later, they had 183 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: a discussion that somehow changed Elkin's mind about what he'd seen. 184 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: That evening November third, nineteen ninety four, Lamar and Philip 185 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 1: Campbell were both picked up. Now, during this time, Lamar 186 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 1: waved his Miranda rights, spoke to Nickerson, told him where 187 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,319 Speaker 1: he was across town, and it was impossible for him 188 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: to have committed the crime. And it was during this 189 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:31,079 Speaker 1: time Lamar was alleged to have spoken to another detective, 190 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:35,959 Speaker 1: the detective Campbell, but Lamar was completely unaware of this 191 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: alleged conversation until trial. Lamar knew he was innocent, so 192 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: he agreed to be in the lineup. 193 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, they bring Greg Elking down to the station and 194 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 3: Lamar's in one of the lineups. There's three fillers just pulled, 195 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 3: you know, from the jail to be put into that lineup, 196 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 3: and Greg Elking views it at least three times. First time, 197 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 3: he can't identify anybody, the second time identify anybody. The 198 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 3: third time he identifies a filler from the jail, who, 199 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 3: of course everyone knows, and not a suspect and is 200 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 3: got the world's greatest alifi right he's in custody. The 201 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 3: lineup containing Philip Campbell, the co defendant and an actual 202 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:21,439 Speaker 3: perpetrator in this case. He couldn't identify anyone, didn't recognize 203 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 3: anyone from that lineup, and of course within that lineup 204 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 3: is somebody that was actually on that porch with Greg Elking. 205 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 3: There was no identification made, and not only no identification 206 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 3: and identification of someone else, and it should have been 207 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:34,679 Speaker 3: the end of. 208 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:38,319 Speaker 1: It, but that, of course wasn't the end of it. 209 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:42,079 Speaker 1: We now know that Greg was told who to identify, 210 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 1: and later he did. But take us to what happened 211 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: immediately after this live lineup. 212 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 2: So when I left out of the out lineup room, 213 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:55,839 Speaker 2: Detective Nickoson was kind of leaning over a table, and 214 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 2: I could tell that he was frustrated, and I remember 215 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 2: telling him, see, I told you I didn't do this, 216 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 2: And I remember the way that he looked up at 217 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 2: me like he had atred in his eyes. That's the 218 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 2: only way that I know how to describe it. But 219 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 2: I'd left there knowing that I hadn't been identified, And 220 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 2: when they came back later and said, well you've been identified, 221 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 2: I knew then that something was going on, that something 222 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 2: was wrong. 223 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,679 Speaker 3: Greg Elkin's testimony on this is clear. He was told 224 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 3: the numbers of the lineup. You know, it's three and 225 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 3: it's four. Three, of course was la Mar's position, and 226 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 3: four was Philip Campbell's position. And you know the train 227 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 3: left the station right then. 228 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 4: This episode is underwritten by global law firm Greenberg Truid. 229 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 4: Through its pro bono program, Greenberg Trowig leverages it's more 230 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 4: than twenty six hundred lawyers across forty four offices to 231 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 4: serve the greater good of our communities and provide equal 232 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 4: access to justice for all. 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Only happens by design. 240 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 2: So they took me in Philip down to the booking area, 241 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:41,559 Speaker 2: which was the central holdover, and there's a twenty hour 242 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 2: period where the Circuit Attorney's office makes a decision on 243 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 2: whether or not to actually charge you, and the jailer 244 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 2: came that next day and said that charges had been issued, and. 245 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: While you and Philip Campbell were in that holding area, 246 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: enter in jailhouse snitch named William. Can you tell me 247 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 1: a little bit, Lindsey about William Mock. 248 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 3: Well, William Mock had been an informant before. But you 249 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:17,319 Speaker 3: know the tall tale that he told in Lamar's case 250 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 3: was that while he was in custody in this city 251 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 3: holdover area, and that's that place in the jail where 252 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 3: people are held before charges are issued. It's a long 253 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 3: line of more than ten cells housing up to you know, 254 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 3: fifteen folks, loud folks, people coming off of drugs, and 255 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 3: that's where they were at this particular period. They're never 256 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 3: selled together. And William Mock claims to hear Lamar and 257 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 3: Philip yelling to each other through this holding area, basically 258 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 3: confessing to this, saying things like, you know, we shouldn't 259 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 3: let the white guy live, and you know we got to, 260 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 3: you know, hide the gun. And you know he's claiming, 261 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 3: he Mock, that he's hearing this and hearing Lamar yelling 262 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 3: out not only hey, I'm Lamar Johnson. My name is Lamar, 263 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 3: and here's my information to a Lamont. 264 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: It's so absurd, it's so absurd. 265 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 3: It's absurd, even if you know this Lamont person had 266 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 3: been in there, right, But there's not a Lamont in 267 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 3: that jail. When William Mock is in there talking about 268 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 3: these instances, they knew Lamont wasn't in there. Lamar's lawyer 269 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 3: brings it up at trial. 270 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: And that his testimony was incentivized. 271 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 3: Of course, as they are right. I mean, jailhouse snitches 272 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 3: don't work for free, and this particular one certainly did it. 273 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 3: But Lamar's jury, Lamar, no one knew that William Mock 274 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 3: had a history of doing this exact same thing just 275 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 3: two years before he did it in this case. 276 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 1: Since then, letters that Mock wrote to Nickerson and the 277 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: prosecutor have been obtained. Letters that were written from prison 278 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 1: after his own probation had been revoked, in which he 279 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: was offering his services in exchange for free. And not 280 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: only were his motivations for testifying exposed in his letters 281 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: to the prosecutor, but also in his letters to Nickerson, 282 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: Mock's overt racism was on full display. 283 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 3: Yes, he's writing his letters as again as snitches do, 284 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 3: saying this is what I want and calling Lamar and 285 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 3: Phil his co defendant, you know, to bt Inward and 286 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 3: a number of other comments. And that's important because it shows, 287 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 3: of course his bias his motivation for doing some of this, 288 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 3: which is why under the rules that would have to 289 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 3: be disclosed so that the jury can test that bias. 290 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 3: And you know, that was one of our strongest Brady 291 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 3: claims in the case that these letters weren't disclosed to 292 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 3: Lamar or the jury. 293 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: So let's talk about the trial, which began July tenth, 294 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety five, in Saint Louis County Circuit Court. The 295 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: prosecutor was Assistant Circuit Attorney Dwight Warrant, and Lamar, your 296 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: public defender was David Bruns. One of the key points 297 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 1: brought up a trial was Greg Elkins's eyewitness identification in 298 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: which he said that he recognized you in the lineup 299 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:13,159 Speaker 1: because of your quote lazy eye. That's true, which is 300 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 1: bizarre because I'm looking right at you, sir, and you 301 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: do not have a lazy eye. So what was all 302 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: of that about. 303 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 2: Well, so that's confusing because he doesn't verify identification in 304 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 2: the photo spread. He actually identifies somebody else in the lineup, 305 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 2: and it's only after he had spent some time along 306 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 2: with Detective Niggers and that he suddenly said, oh, I 307 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 2: know who did it. It was number three or number four. 308 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 2: And then in the police before he says that he's 309 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 2: got to identify me based on a lazy or crooked eye. 310 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 2: I don't know where that came from. I've never heard 311 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 2: that before my entire life. That's the first time that 312 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,439 Speaker 2: it's mentioned, which is of course when he needs some 313 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 2: sort of means of justifying an identification. 314 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 3: I'm sure they knew that this case is weak. Were 315 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 3: going to have to explain how somebody makes an identification 316 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 3: of fully masked black men at dark you know. And 317 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 3: Dwight Warren said that at the hearing right, there was 318 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 3: no case without this identification because, as Lamar said, no 319 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 3: physical evidence, no motive was ever investigated or presented, because 320 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 3: there was no motive for Lamar to kill Marcus. So 321 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:29,360 Speaker 3: Greg Elking's identification was central. And so when he pointed 322 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:31,640 Speaker 3: to Lamar in front of that jury and said, that's 323 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 3: the guy I was on the porch and that's him, 324 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 3: I mean, it was the key. 325 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: But you found out much later after your conviction that 326 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: Elking had been incentivized to lie about identifying you, and 327 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: that after the trial he'd even tried to come forward 328 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: with the truth. 329 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 2: Well, I eventually was able to get in contact with 330 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 2: Greg and he by then he had already written his 331 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 2: pastor been trying to come forward. He just wanted to 332 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 2: do the right thing, and he just wrote out everything 333 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,640 Speaker 2: that had occurred. He told that him and his family 334 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 2: was suffering financially and that as an assentive he had 335 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 2: received money new apartment and they had utilities that was 336 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 2: taken care of. And I mean everything that he said 337 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,360 Speaker 2: is eventually we was able to cooperate all the way 338 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 2: down to their taking care of traffic tickets van. That's 339 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 2: just how detailed it was. 340 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:31,479 Speaker 1: Unfortunately, no one was aware of Greg Elkins's motivation as 341 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 1: a trial, nor was anyone besides the prosecutor aware of 342 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: William Mock's motivations, which were not only racist, but were 343 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: also entirely motivated by gaining his freedom. 344 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 2: Mack had also claimed, in addition to me supposedly talking 345 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,880 Speaker 2: with this Lamont about killing a white witness in this case, 346 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 2: I supposed to have also robbed and killed some other 347 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 2: white guy. And it just split the trial up and 348 00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:59,679 Speaker 2: for most of that whole second day because of this 349 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 2: false other case that Mack had came up with. This 350 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 2: just began to talk about the imaginary case, which police 351 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 2: had to eventually admit that they looked for this case 352 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:10,919 Speaker 2: and it never even happened. 353 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 3: They're being asked on the stand in front of the jury, well, 354 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 3: did you investigate this other supposed robbery and homicide of 355 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 3: a white guy on the south Side. Yeah, we did. 356 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 3: What'd you find? There's no case. So here we are 357 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 3: yet again that they have a very big important fact 358 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 3: that William Mack is pretending to have overheard that they 359 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 3: know it doesn't exist. The case is not real. 360 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 1: And that wasn't the only false testimony that was submitted. 361 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 1: There was also an alleged confession from Lamar on the 362 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: day he was arrested before the lineup to a detective 363 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: Ralph Campbell, no relation to Philip Campbell, in which he 364 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: was alleged to say, I shouldn't have let the white 365 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 1: guy live. Another conversation that never took place, and the 366 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: fabrications and misinformation don't end there a trial, a ski 367 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: mask was introduced that actually had been found in Lamar's 368 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: car during a traffic stop. But the problem with this 369 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: ski mask was when it was found in Lamar's car. 370 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:15,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was two months before Marcus was killed, and 371 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,120 Speaker 2: that mass was put in my car by a friend 372 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:20,880 Speaker 2: of mine, guy that I knew, Yeah. 373 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 3: At one of the many times he was curbed as 374 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 3: they call it, you know, Saint Louis or to pull 375 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 3: up on you and search your car. That happened in August. 376 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 3: You know, they came. They took it from the trunk 377 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 3: of Lamar's car, along with a number of other items, 378 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 3: and packaged and put into police custody down in the 379 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 3: property lockers in August of nineteen ninety four, where it 380 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,360 Speaker 3: sat and where it was on the night of October thirtieth, 381 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:47,439 Speaker 3: so they knew it could never have been used. And 382 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 3: it's sitting there on council table as an exhibit for 383 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 3: all to see. And you know, it's one of the many, 384 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 3: in my view, really intentionally prejudicial things. It's completely irrelevant 385 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 3: to this case, is. 386 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: One hundred percent. Now. Your trial attorney, David Bruns did 387 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 1: point that out, as well as the fact that you 388 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 1: did not have a lazy eye. Your girlfriend, Erica Barrow, 389 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: testified you were almost three miles away from the scene, 390 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: adding that you were only out of her site for 391 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: five minutes. But Detective Nickerson rebutted your alibi, testifying that 392 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: he had driven that route twenty to fifty times, saying 393 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,160 Speaker 1: that Lamar could have made the trip in no more 394 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:29,160 Speaker 1: than five minutes. This testimony was left unchecked, so your 395 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 1: alibi was rebutted. They've got Elkin's identification, Mock's overheard confession, 396 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: and Detective Campbell offering an alleged confession as well. So 397 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: how long did the jury deliberate? 398 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:43,440 Speaker 2: They delivered for an hour and a half. They came 399 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 2: back in and as most people know, if the jury 400 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 2: is not looking at you, that's a bad sign. And 401 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 2: none of them looked at me, And I think it 402 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 2: was the clerk that read the verdict. Everything was kind 403 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 2: of a blur back then, and they said I was 404 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 2: guilty first recree murder and on Crome action. 405 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: What what went through your body? What went through your head? 406 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 2: I didn't know how to react. It was I just 407 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,439 Speaker 2: couldn't believe that a jury would believe that, you know, 408 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 2: it just it was no motive. It re presented, no 409 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 2: physical evidence for it. So I was stunt. I was stunt. 410 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:24,439 Speaker 1: Now this is what really got me, because between the 411 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: time of your conviction and sentencing, something insane happens and Lindsey, 412 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 1: can you address that. 413 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, the verdict came down on July fifth of nineteen 414 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 3: ninety five, and Phil Campbell knows, of course that Lamar 415 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 3: had nothing to do with this, and they start writing 416 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,880 Speaker 3: letters back and forth to each other Lamar and Phil Campbell, 417 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,880 Speaker 3: and Phil Campbell is saying, I know you didn't do this. 418 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,239 Speaker 3: It's really screwed up that you got convicted when it 419 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 3: was me and BA James Howard his nickname, and I'm sorry, man, 420 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 3: but you know that's how the game goes. And we 421 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 3: can't tell on BA our friend, and Lamar writing back saying, 422 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,639 Speaker 3: you know, you guys got to help me tell the 423 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 3: truth on this. Lamar finally writes to Judge Shaw, his 424 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 3: trial judge and the judg who's getting ready to sentence him. 425 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 3: He says, I'm getting these letters from my co defendant. 426 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 3: I didn't do this. Somebody helped me, basically asking for 427 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 3: help in the way that he knows how to do it. 428 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 3: Dwight Warren, the prosecutor in this case, applies for a 429 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 3: search warrant LO and behold, here are all the letters 430 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:34,640 Speaker 3: that Lamar's been talking about. They're filed on the court docket. 431 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,160 Speaker 3: They're put into the record. They're the basis of motion 432 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:42,360 Speaker 3: for a new trial, and it is completely and utterly 433 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:58,160 Speaker 3: ignored by everybody. 434 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 1: Not only did Campbell acknowledge that you had nothing to 435 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: do with it, he cut a deal for seven years. 436 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,160 Speaker 1: They knew that he was guilty, and he's serving less 437 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,360 Speaker 1: time than you are, and they know you're wrongfully convicted. 438 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: But if I'm not mistaken, Campbell had two affi Davids, 439 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 1: one in ninety six and then another one shortly before 440 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 1: he died in two thousand and nine. Correct, and James 441 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: Howard or Ba, the man Campbell named as his accomplice, 442 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,919 Speaker 1: also signed AffA David stating that Lamar was innocent. In fact, 443 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: he did so on three different occasions between two thousand 444 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 1: and two and two thousand and nine. 445 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 2: So that's why you've got multiple Affi Davis over the years. 446 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 2: And I was constantly trying to present those to the 447 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 2: course and they just weren't hurt. 448 00:25:54,080 --> 00:26:00,439 Speaker 1: So now we know that two people, the people who 449 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: were actually responsible for the murder, came forward, not once, 450 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 1: but multiple times and confessed to it and said you 451 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:13,120 Speaker 1: had nothing to do with it. I cannot imagine how 452 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: you must have felt like punching air, thinking that every 453 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,719 Speaker 1: single time you can prove your innocence, and it's falling 454 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: not just on deaf ears, but it's being completely ignored. Right, 455 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: And you're twenty when you went in. You were sentenced 456 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: to life without parole, and you had two young daughters. 457 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: And months turned to years, which turned into decades. 458 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 2: Decades. 459 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 1: Yes, you gave an interview that actually broke my heart. 460 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 1: You said that you had never been to the beach, 461 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 1: and you had never been on a plane. What was 462 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: it like watching the time that you had spent in 463 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 1: prison exceed the time that you had lived outside. 464 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 2: The biggest thing was just the relationships with my daughters 465 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 2: that I lost. You know, I wasn't able to develop 466 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 2: that type of bond with them that you know most 467 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,959 Speaker 2: fathers have with their daughters. I guess just the relationship 468 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 2: with family than children. That's the thing that hurts the most. 469 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 1: What kept you going the truth? 470 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 2: I knew that if ever I could be heard, I 471 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,920 Speaker 2: believe that any any foreign impartial person would they would 472 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,159 Speaker 2: They would have any choice to find that I was 473 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 2: at least didn't receive it for a trial. But I 474 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 2: knew that they couldn't find that I was actually innocent, 475 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 2: because to deny you would have to step over a 476 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 2: lot of things. You'd have to ignore a lot of stuff. 477 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 2: You'd have to ignore the confessions, you'd have to ignore 478 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 2: the trial I received, You'd have to ignore that what 479 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 2: we knew about Mock. I mean, when you've got one 480 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,920 Speaker 2: thing after another after another, it's just hard to say 481 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,120 Speaker 2: that none of this is the truth. 482 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: So, lindsay, let's fast forward to twenty fourteen, which I 483 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: believe is around the time you and your firm, Morgan 484 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 1: Pilot got involved in Lamar's case along with the Midwest 485 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: Innocence Project. And one of the things you were trying 486 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 1: to do is to verify what Lamar had heard from 487 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:18,719 Speaker 1: Greg Elking that he received financial compensation from Saint Louis 488 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 1: for giving false testimony, and so you were trying to 489 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: confirm the existence of those payments. 490 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,199 Speaker 3: Yeah, he was telling Lamar and through his letters, they 491 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 3: paid me. They did this, they did that. And Lamar 492 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,919 Speaker 3: was requesting of the Attorney General's Office, the Circuit Attorney's office, 493 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 3: the Saint Louis City Police Department, the Victim's Crime Fund. 494 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 3: We were writing and asking where are the documents showing 495 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 3: compensation to this particular witness, and the response is overwhelmingly 496 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 3: were there are no records, what you're asking for does 497 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 3: not exist, or ignored us and didn't respond at all. 498 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: But then in twenty seventeen, Kimberly Gardner became the new 499 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 1: Saint Louis Circuit Attorney and a year later she forms 500 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:10,719 Speaker 1: the Saint Louis Conviction Integrity Unit. What happened when you 501 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 1: brought your request to them? 502 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 3: She directed them to investigate, and in February of twenty nineteen, 503 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 3: Tony Box, one of her employees, found the documents, sixty 504 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 3: plus pages of them showing more than four thousand, nineteen 505 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 3: ninety four dollars of compensation to Greg Elking and his family. 506 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 3: So it wasn't until right before the filing of the 507 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 3: motion for new trial in the City of Saint Louis 508 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 3: that the actual documents were produced that corroborated mister Elking. 509 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: And in July of twenty nineteen, Circuit Attorney Gardner filed 510 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: a motion for a new trial. All of this evidence 511 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: is presented, the affidavids from Campbell and Howard, the compensation 512 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: to Elking, proof of William Mock's unreliability, and at that 513 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,479 Speaker 1: hearing Kim Gardner recommends that Lamar began to the new 514 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 1: trial that should have been the turning point for you. 515 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 2: Lamar, Yeah, I mean I was hopeful that that would 516 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 2: be enough. I mean, I don't know what else you 517 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 2: could what else you could have that would justify relief 518 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 2: in this case, But unfortunately the judge that it was 519 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 2: assigned to had a different position or belief. Decidi you 520 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 2: didn't have any authority to act in the case except to. 521 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 1: Deny because at that time, Missouri law said that outside 522 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: of the initial appeal what is known as a twenty 523 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: nine to fifteen in Missouri, which happens within ninety days 524 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: of trial, where you can raise any issues in effective assistance, breedy, violations, 525 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: new evidence, et cetera. After that period, neither the prosecutor 526 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: nor the trial court has the authority to challenge the conviction. So, 527 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 1: I mean, Lamar, even with the circuit attorney and virtually 528 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 1: all the evidence on your side, the system still failed you. 529 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 1: But rather than the end of the road, you and 530 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: your team saw this as a challenge and you made 531 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 1: the decision to take this fight all the way to 532 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: the Missouri Supreme Court. Lindsay, what made you want to 533 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 1: take this case forward, did you feel like you could 534 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 1: actually win? 535 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 3: So we knew it was going to be an uphill battle. 536 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 3: But Circuit Attorney Gardner was, you know, at that time, 537 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 3: the only prosecutor that was willing to test the bounds 538 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 3: of this and highlight the real gap in Missouri law here. 539 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 3: And we had long conversations about that with mister Johnson, 540 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 3: you know, saying test litigation is important, but can be 541 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 3: real pain in it because you know, sometimes you must 542 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 3: lose in a very public way before things can change. 543 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 3: His case was chosen because of the strength of these facts. 544 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 3: This innocence case is unimpeachable, like it has it all 545 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,719 Speaker 3: at every level where there was supposed to be some 546 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,479 Speaker 3: protection for an accused person, the system fell apart in 547 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 3: this case. Nonetheless, the questions before the Supreme Court had 548 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 3: nothing to do with those those amazing facts. It was 549 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 3: is he too late for justice? Whatever that means? And 550 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 3: is Missouri law big enough to recognize that a prosecutor, 551 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 3: no matter when she comes into information credible, reliable, and cooperated, 552 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 3: that a conviction obtained by her office is false, does 553 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 3: she have the authority and the duty to do something 554 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 3: about it? Those were the questions, and. 555 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 1: When it came time to decide those questions. 556 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 3: The Supreme Court, in a gutting decision, said no, under 557 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 3: Missouri law today, there is no such mechanism, and for 558 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 3: that reason, and that reason alone, Lamar Johnson's motion and 559 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 3: petition for a new trial are denied. However, in this opinion, 560 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 3: you know they called on the legislation. We agree with 561 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 3: mister Johnson and Miss Gardner. This is unfortunate. It's worse 562 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 3: than that. But Lamar Johnson's case had garnered so much 563 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 3: national attention that people were having the reaction that you had, 564 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 3: which is, how does this happen in the United States 565 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 3: of America that a prosecutor goes to court says, this 566 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 3: person's innocent, yet here he sits in custody. All that 567 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 3: mattered because the legislature that had been unwilling, uninterested, passed 568 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 3: legislation in record speed. That opinion came down on March second, 569 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:39,959 Speaker 3: two and twenty one, and with six weeks left of session, 570 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 3: it was past. But it was because of the way 571 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 3: we lost, in my view. 572 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:50,479 Speaker 1: And then on August twenty eighth, twenty twenty one, please 573 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 1: tell me what law was enacted in Missouri. 574 00:33:55,560 --> 00:34:00,239 Speaker 3: The Johnson Fix was signed by Governor Parson in one 575 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 3: of the reddest of red states in all the land. 576 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:08,280 Speaker 3: And now a prosecutor in Missouri, whether in the city 577 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 3: of Saint Louis or in an outstate rural county, can 578 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 3: go to court at any time, whether it's ten years 579 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 3: or twenty five or twenty eight, and go to court 580 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 3: and say our office made a mistake. I'm here to 581 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 3: fix it. 582 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 1: And I believe one of the first to be exonerated 583 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 1: under the Johnson Fix was Kevin Strickland, right, whose wrongful 584 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:35,320 Speaker 1: conviction was overturned in November of twenty twenty one after 585 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 1: he had spent forty three years in prison. 586 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 3: And there's others pending. He will not be the last, 587 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 3: There's no doubt. And what a legacy for Lamar to leave. 588 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 3: And we were so happy that it would help others. 589 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 3: That was the whole point of it. 590 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: And we've seen this same issue in another case that 591 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:59,320 Speaker 1: we've covered on this podcast, Ken Middleton. His trial judge 592 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 1: edith Iss granted him a new trial in twenty four 593 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 1: but this issue halted that new trial on appeal. Now, 594 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 1: his current district attorney, Jean Peters Baker, who has acknowledged 595 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 1: Ken's innocence. Even with this new statute refuses to act 596 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 1: we'll have his episode linked in the bio. So with 597 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 1: this lawn place, Kim Gardner filed a new motion repeating 598 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 1: the claims made in the previous filing, and Judge David 599 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:30,760 Speaker 1: Mason held five days of hearings in December of twenty 600 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,359 Speaker 1: twenty two. And there is this wonderful moment from those 601 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: hearings where Judge Mason is questioning Detective Nickerson about your 602 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: non existent lazy eye, Lamar. I want to quote from 603 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 1: it because it's just a masterclass in dismantling a witness 604 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:51,320 Speaker 1: on the stand. So basically, the judge was asking whether 605 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 1: this lazy eye identification was enough that even if Nickerson 606 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 1: thought that you know, Lamar, you had a lazy eye, 607 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 1: which you do, not that this is this is the 608 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:06,439 Speaker 1: exact quote from that exchange, Judge Mason, you didn't think 609 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: you needed to dig any further Nickerson, dig into what, 610 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 1: Judge Mason, maybe a little more corroboration, something that could 611 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:19,359 Speaker 1: corroborate a little more than just the eye Nickerson. Well, 612 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 1: mister Johnson matched the height, weight and age of what 613 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 1: the witness had given and Judge Mason says that gentleman 614 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,640 Speaker 1: back there does too you want to arrest him. I mean, 615 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: I probably didn't do it justice, but it really is 616 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: worth watching. It's epic. You can find it on YouTube. 617 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: In fact, we will link to it in the bio. 618 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 1: And then on February fourteenth, twenty twenty three, Valentine's Day, 619 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: Judge Mason found you factually innocent and vacated the conviction. 620 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,879 Speaker 1: You walked out of the courtroom that day a free man. 621 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 2: Take me to that moment, it just felt like a 622 00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 2: heavy weight was being lifted. It's just the weight of 623 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 2: like losing a close friend of mine, the weight of 624 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 2: everything I'd lost over the last twenty eight years. It 625 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 2: was just slowly lifting, and I was coming to believe 626 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:17,520 Speaker 2: that it actually was true. So that was that's how 627 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:18,040 Speaker 2: I felt. 628 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,880 Speaker 1: Can you tell me a little bit about your life today. 629 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:29,360 Speaker 2: Well, it's been fast, the Innocence Project, working with a 630 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,759 Speaker 2: very generous firm and people who kind of loan me 631 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,600 Speaker 2: an apartment to try to, you know, get me started, 632 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,319 Speaker 2: and I can actually take some time and decide what 633 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,879 Speaker 2: I want to do and how I can best use 634 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 2: this experience to try to, you know, help others who 635 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,520 Speaker 2: are are either going through it or help them to 636 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,319 Speaker 2: avoid going through it. And that's ultimately what I want 637 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,760 Speaker 2: to do, is to just do my part and trying 638 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 2: to make the system better, because it can be better. 639 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:59,480 Speaker 1: And have you been connecting with your daughters. 640 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,240 Speaker 2: Absolutely. My daughter is going to get married next month 641 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 2: and she wants me to walk her down now, and 642 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 2: I think that's something that every father looks forward to doing, 643 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,759 Speaker 2: so I'm very grateful at the timing. Oh and my 644 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,800 Speaker 2: other daughter she's engaged too, so I get a double 645 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:18,960 Speaker 2: a double daddy duty. 646 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 1: That's wonderful. And if any of our listeners want to 647 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,160 Speaker 1: help support you in getting your life restarted, I know 648 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:30,239 Speaker 1: that the Midwest Innocence Project has set up a GoFundMe 649 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,840 Speaker 1: page for you, and we'll have links to that in 650 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 1: the episode bio. So at this point, we have something 651 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,400 Speaker 1: on that podcast called Closing Arguments. And first of all, 652 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:42,840 Speaker 1: I want to thank you so much both of you 653 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:47,840 Speaker 1: for spending this time with me. It's just a mind blowing, 654 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:52,760 Speaker 1: heartbreaking and yet very inspiring story. And I commend both 655 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 1: of you for your perseverance and your resilience and your fight. Really, 656 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 1: if I could ask you guys to make your closing 657 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:08,840 Speaker 1: arguments in terms of what your takeaway is from your experience, 658 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 1: and I'll ask you, Lindsey, to go first. 659 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:18,800 Speaker 3: You know, the motto of the Johnson team, which included 660 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 3: so many incredible advocates at the Midwest Innocence Project and 661 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,760 Speaker 3: Lathrope and our little you know army, I guess, would 662 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,880 Speaker 3: continually would tell the press, tell ourselves the truth always 663 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,879 Speaker 3: finds a way, you know. And there were moments where 664 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 3: we were amongst ourselves wondering if that was really true, 665 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:40,120 Speaker 3: if our mantra was going to be proven. You know, 666 00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:43,799 Speaker 3: you know this was going to be right. And the 667 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:48,080 Speaker 3: deep relief that I have that it has has restored 668 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,520 Speaker 3: some of that old faith and fire that I had before. 669 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:55,440 Speaker 3: Because this system is a brilliant and beautiful system that 670 00:39:55,520 --> 00:40:00,840 Speaker 3: we have. The Constitution provides everything that we need to 671 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:06,640 Speaker 3: ensure reliability, to ensure fairness, to conduct trials in a 672 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:12,399 Speaker 3: way that honors this uniquely American idea that is a 673 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:16,640 Speaker 3: really beautiful thing to be proud of. But the things 674 00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:24,319 Speaker 3: that freed Lamar Johnson existed in nineteen ninety four for him, 675 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,680 Speaker 3: the Sixth Amendment, the Fifth Amendment, the Fourteenth Amendment. All 676 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:31,240 Speaker 3: of those things that are just brilliant protectors of these 677 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:35,880 Speaker 3: life and liberty and fairness and against overreach. Those things existed, 678 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:42,400 Speaker 3: but the levers weren't working. The people in charge weren't 679 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:46,239 Speaker 3: doing their job. This case couldn't have gone worse. At 680 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:51,880 Speaker 3: every single stop along the road. It failed. Every check, 681 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:54,960 Speaker 3: every safety valve that's built into this system failed in 682 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:55,759 Speaker 3: this case. 683 00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:56,600 Speaker 1: And. 684 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:02,720 Speaker 3: On the on the second time around. It took too long, 685 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,680 Speaker 3: but it did work, and what happened out of it 686 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,320 Speaker 3: was the shining the crown jewel of the American system, 687 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:15,360 Speaker 3: which is it is touchstone of due process, truth, fairness 688 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,400 Speaker 3: and all of that righteousness. It took too long, it 689 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,440 Speaker 3: took too much. We should be ashamed, we should be angry, 690 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,920 Speaker 3: we should be motivated, but we should be proud still 691 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,839 Speaker 3: of this system that it can do it if we 692 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:32,560 Speaker 3: demand it, and we need folks to get in the 693 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 3: game and demand it of their elected officials, of their prosecutors, 694 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,319 Speaker 3: of their state officials. I mean, it's the voters that 695 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,120 Speaker 3: demand the stuff. And this system's worth fighting for. It 696 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,759 Speaker 3: can get it right, it can do great things, and 697 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:45,840 Speaker 3: it did it in this case. 698 00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:50,719 Speaker 2: Finally, Oh, I would start by repeating what Lindsay said. 699 00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:54,759 Speaker 2: It is troubly the truth. We'll find a way in 700 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:56,759 Speaker 2: then it. You know that people can lie about it, 701 00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,399 Speaker 2: deny it, or try to hide it, but it's there. 702 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 2: It's going to them out. What I guess what I 703 00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:05,440 Speaker 2: would add is that is gratitude. I mean, in spite 704 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:08,000 Speaker 2: of all that has happened and all the bad things 705 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,279 Speaker 2: that happened, there's still a lot to be grateful for 706 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:14,120 Speaker 2: in the end, and that's what I choose to hold 707 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,839 Speaker 2: on to at this point in my life. No, I mean, 708 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:21,080 Speaker 2: I've always said that just holding on to that anger 709 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:25,399 Speaker 2: is just trading one prison for another. And I've given 710 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,279 Speaker 2: too much of my time to that. And I would 711 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,799 Speaker 2: anybody who's going through that struggle of what I went through, 712 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,680 Speaker 2: there's hope they should be comforted in that and that 713 00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:37,720 Speaker 2: my case is a testament of what can happen. 714 00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:46,480 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your guest host, 715 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,920 Speaker 1: Lauren Bright Pacheco. I'd like to thank executive producers Jason 716 00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:52,439 Speaker 1: Flamm and Kevin Wardis for inviting me to be here. 717 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:57,120 Speaker 1: Special thanks also to our wonderful production team Connor Hall, Annie, Chelsea, 718 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,360 Speaker 1: Lyla Robinson and Jeff Cliburn. The music in this production 719 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:05,520 Speaker 1: comes from three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be 720 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,400 Speaker 1: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on 721 00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:12,520 Speaker 1: Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at wrong Conviction, 722 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,560 Speaker 1: as well as Lava for Good. On all three platforms, 723 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,480 Speaker 1: you can find me online at Lauren Bright Pacheco, and 724 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,880 Speaker 1: you can find my podcasts Murder and Oregon, Murder and Illinois, 725 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,239 Speaker 1: and my latest Murder Miami wherever you listen to podcasts. 726 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,919 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts 727 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:34,960 Speaker 1: in association with Signal Company Number one