1 00:00:08,245 --> 00:00:13,685 Speaker 1: School of Humans. Please note that this episode discusses physical 2 00:00:13,725 --> 00:00:18,365 Speaker 1: and sexual abuse, and another note, lots of the audio 3 00:00:18,405 --> 00:00:21,125 Speaker 1: in this episode is from thirty year old deposition hearings. 4 00:00:21,765 --> 00:00:24,965 Speaker 1: The rest was recorded from phone calls with someone incarcerated, 5 00:00:25,645 --> 00:00:27,805 Speaker 1: so warning that parts of this are a little hard 6 00:00:27,805 --> 00:00:36,085 Speaker 1: to hear. In nineteen seventy nine, in Los Angeles, two men, 7 00:00:36,725 --> 00:00:40,565 Speaker 1: Jesse James Andrews and Charles Sanders, stood at the door 8 00:00:40,685 --> 00:00:46,525 Speaker 1: of Preston Wheeler's apartment. Preston was home with his girlfriend, 9 00:00:46,565 --> 00:00:50,005 Speaker 1: Patrice Brandon, and when they saw the two men outside, 10 00:00:50,045 --> 00:00:55,365 Speaker 1: they invited them in. They weren't expecting trouble. After all. Preston, 11 00:00:55,485 --> 00:00:59,445 Speaker 1: a small time drug dealer, and Jesse were friendly, but 12 00:00:59,605 --> 00:01:04,765 Speaker 1: Jesse and Charles were not there as friends. According to Charles, 13 00:01:04,885 --> 00:01:08,005 Speaker 1: Jesse tie Preston and Patrese up while the two of 14 00:01:08,045 --> 00:01:12,165 Speaker 1: them ransacked the apartment looking for money and drugs and valuables. 15 00:01:13,845 --> 00:01:17,685 Speaker 1: When they didn't find anything worthwhile, Jesse raped and strangled 16 00:01:17,685 --> 00:01:22,245 Speaker 1: Patrese to death with a hanger before sodomizing and murdering Preston. 17 00:01:23,605 --> 00:01:27,125 Speaker 1: A neighbor, Ronald Chisholm, having heard a commotion, went to 18 00:01:27,165 --> 00:01:31,565 Speaker 1: make sure that Preston was okay. Charles later testified that 19 00:01:31,725 --> 00:01:34,845 Speaker 1: Jesse invited and rattled in and then strangled him in 20 00:01:34,885 --> 00:01:40,925 Speaker 1: the bathtub. Jesse and Charles went about a year before 21 00:01:40,965 --> 00:01:45,445 Speaker 1: being caught. Charles was arrested first and agreed to testify 22 00:01:45,485 --> 00:01:49,645 Speaker 1: against Jesse in exchange for a reduced sentence. Jesse was 23 00:01:49,725 --> 00:01:56,445 Speaker 1: ultimately arrested, tried, convicted, and sentenced to death. You hear 24 00:01:56,485 --> 00:01:59,365 Speaker 1: about a crime like this and you think, how could 25 00:01:59,445 --> 00:02:02,965 Speaker 1: someone do this? What is it about them that would 26 00:02:02,965 --> 00:02:09,125 Speaker 1: make them do something this brutal, cruel, this evil. The 27 00:02:09,245 --> 00:02:12,485 Speaker 1: answer requires us to go back fifteen years before that 28 00:02:12,525 --> 00:02:17,645 Speaker 1: triple murder, back to nineteen sixty four when Jesse James Andrews, 29 00:02:18,005 --> 00:02:23,445 Speaker 1: aged thirteen, was sent to Mount Meg's. When I first 30 00:02:23,445 --> 00:02:26,925 Speaker 1: got the email about Mount Megs, I was horrified by 31 00:02:26,925 --> 00:02:30,605 Speaker 1: the story and what the kids went through. But there 32 00:02:30,685 --> 00:02:33,845 Speaker 1: was one particular part that stuck with me that made 33 00:02:33,845 --> 00:02:37,005 Speaker 1: me feel like I had to tell the story. Not 34 00:02:37,125 --> 00:02:39,765 Speaker 1: what Mount Megs did to children, but how it changed 35 00:02:39,805 --> 00:02:43,285 Speaker 1: the trajectory of those children's lives once they became adults. 36 00:02:44,805 --> 00:02:48,285 Speaker 1: We've told you the stories of some of them. Jenny Knox, 37 00:02:49,005 --> 00:02:54,325 Speaker 1: Mary Stevens, Johnny Bodley and Lonnie Holly. We've told you 38 00:02:54,365 --> 00:02:57,205 Speaker 1: about how they came to Mount Megs scared and alone, 39 00:02:57,925 --> 00:03:02,485 Speaker 1: how they learned to adopt, how they suffered. So it 40 00:03:02,525 --> 00:03:07,085 Speaker 1: may sound strange to say this, but in many anyways, Jenny, Mary, 41 00:03:07,245 --> 00:03:13,325 Speaker 1: Johnny and Lonnie were the lucky ones, lucky despite the 42 00:03:13,365 --> 00:03:16,285 Speaker 1: fact that they're still haunted by what happened to them, 43 00:03:16,285 --> 00:03:19,885 Speaker 1: even though they're now in their sixties and seventies. But 44 00:03:20,085 --> 00:03:23,085 Speaker 1: many people who were incarcerated at Mount Meg's as children 45 00:03:23,525 --> 00:03:26,605 Speaker 1: ended up spending their entire lives tethered to the criminal 46 00:03:26,685 --> 00:03:31,805 Speaker 1: legal system. Many were sentenced to life in prison. Many 47 00:03:31,845 --> 00:03:39,165 Speaker 1: others were sentenced to death. I'm Josie Duffie Rice and 48 00:03:39,325 --> 00:03:43,565 Speaker 1: this is Unreformed The Story of the Alabama Industrial School 49 00:03:43,605 --> 00:04:08,925 Speaker 1: for Negro Children, Episode seven, The Aftermath. Jesse James Andrews 50 00:04:08,925 --> 00:04:11,645 Speaker 1: went to trial and was sentenced to death via gas 51 00:04:11,685 --> 00:04:15,365 Speaker 1: chamber in nineteen eighty four, but a few years later 52 00:04:15,405 --> 00:04:19,765 Speaker 1: he appealed, arguing that his attorneys hadn't presented mitigating evidence. 53 00:04:21,005 --> 00:04:24,285 Speaker 1: When a defendant is facing a possible death sentence, they're 54 00:04:24,325 --> 00:04:27,285 Speaker 1: allowed to present evidence that could convince the jury that 55 00:04:27,325 --> 00:04:31,325 Speaker 1: a life sentence would be more appropriate. The evidence could 56 00:04:31,325 --> 00:04:38,445 Speaker 1: include many things developmental delays, remorse age, or childhood trauma. 57 00:04:39,565 --> 00:04:45,565 Speaker 1: Jesse wanted to tell the court about Mount Megs for 58 00:04:45,685 --> 00:04:48,525 Speaker 1: his appeal. Jesse's lawyers wanted to talk to others who 59 00:04:48,605 --> 00:04:53,085 Speaker 1: knew Jesse when he was at Mountmegs. In total, thirty 60 00:04:53,125 --> 00:04:58,005 Speaker 1: two former Mountmegs students sat for depositions. Every single one 61 00:04:58,045 --> 00:05:02,405 Speaker 1: of them had spent significant time in adult prison. The 62 00:05:02,565 --> 00:05:08,605 Speaker 1: day nineteen, Could you say your name again to the record, please, 63 00:05:09,365 --> 00:05:16,165 Speaker 1: Johnny McNiel, Richard Everley, Junior, Holiver Clifton Weekly, Vernon Madison, 64 00:05:16,445 --> 00:05:28,285 Speaker 1: Testing rain Row of Young Bolish Founcer and mister Raines. 65 00:05:29,045 --> 00:05:33,725 Speaker 1: You're presently incarcerated or in custody at the Alabama prison system. 66 00:05:33,765 --> 00:05:37,525 Speaker 1: That's right. Um. Could you tell me where you were 67 00:05:37,605 --> 00:05:42,365 Speaker 1: raised or practice in Threal. I've been about twenty seven 68 00:05:42,405 --> 00:05:47,005 Speaker 1: twenty year, you know, Mount Megan. Yeah, it's been thirty 69 00:05:47,085 --> 00:05:50,645 Speaker 1: years since those depositions. We reached out to all the 70 00:05:50,685 --> 00:05:53,845 Speaker 1: people who were deposed who are still living, most of 71 00:05:53,885 --> 00:05:58,125 Speaker 1: whom are still in prison. We only heard back from 72 00:05:58,165 --> 00:06:01,925 Speaker 1: one person. This is a prepaid collect call from an 73 00:06:01,925 --> 00:06:07,525 Speaker 1: incarcerated individual at Alabama Department of Correction. Miscall is not private. 74 00:06:07,765 --> 00:06:10,645 Speaker 1: It will be recorded and maybe monitored. You may start 75 00:06:10,645 --> 00:06:16,205 Speaker 1: the conversation now, OK, my man is Johnny Mack. This 76 00:06:16,325 --> 00:06:20,005 Speaker 1: is Johnny Mack Young. Not to be confused with Johnny Bodley, 77 00:06:20,325 --> 00:06:25,645 Speaker 1: who you've also heard from today. Johnny Mack is seventy three. 78 00:06:26,405 --> 00:06:29,925 Speaker 1: He's at the Saint Clair Correctional Facility in Springvale, Alabama. 79 00:06:31,525 --> 00:06:35,685 Speaker 1: Johnny Mack's life parallels Jesse's in many ways. They come 80 00:06:35,725 --> 00:06:39,005 Speaker 1: from the same part of Alabama. As children, they were 81 00:06:39,005 --> 00:06:42,685 Speaker 1: both sent to Mount Meg's and as adults both were 82 00:06:42,685 --> 00:06:46,165 Speaker 1: sentenced to prison for murder. Well one of the most 83 00:06:46,285 --> 00:06:50,205 Speaker 1: violent persons that you would ever have met in your life, 84 00:06:50,565 --> 00:06:54,685 Speaker 1: and those characteristics wols in steel in me when I 85 00:06:54,845 --> 00:06:57,885 Speaker 1: was a tweer of thirteen year child in my mayor's 86 00:06:57,885 --> 00:07:03,525 Speaker 1: reformatur Johnny Mack was born in a small town called Pritchard, Alabama. 87 00:07:03,725 --> 00:07:08,325 Speaker 1: Pritchard was very segregated. Johnny Max says he didn't even 88 00:07:08,325 --> 00:07:11,525 Speaker 1: meet a white person until he was seven. Like many 89 00:07:11,525 --> 00:07:14,245 Speaker 1: of the other survivors we've heard from, Johnny Mack was 90 00:07:14,285 --> 00:07:17,445 Speaker 1: one of several siblings, but he was closest to his 91 00:07:17,525 --> 00:07:21,645 Speaker 1: older sister Rose and his brother James. Rose will go 92 00:07:21,805 --> 00:07:25,965 Speaker 1: to school where she came home. She pulls us learned 93 00:07:25,965 --> 00:07:30,205 Speaker 1: how to write. She pulls us loud and leave with 94 00:07:30,285 --> 00:07:33,165 Speaker 1: Rose's help. Johnny Mack was pretty good at school. He 95 00:07:33,285 --> 00:07:36,565 Speaker 1: liked reading and math, but by age twelve, he was 96 00:07:36,605 --> 00:07:42,005 Speaker 1: starting to get into trouble. He'd rather life would have 97 00:07:42,005 --> 00:07:44,605 Speaker 1: been a whole lot too, But instead of listening to 98 00:07:44,645 --> 00:07:48,165 Speaker 1: his sister, Johnny Max says, he started running in the streets. 99 00:07:49,165 --> 00:07:51,405 Speaker 1: He kept running away from home and playing hooky from 100 00:07:51,445 --> 00:07:55,485 Speaker 1: school until eventually he was declared incorrigible and sent to 101 00:07:55,565 --> 00:08:00,165 Speaker 1: Mount Meg's. He got there around the same time as Lonnie, 102 00:08:00,445 --> 00:08:02,805 Speaker 1: and his stories about his time there echoed the ones 103 00:08:02,845 --> 00:08:07,405 Speaker 1: we heard from everyone else. Like the physical violence right 104 00:08:09,885 --> 00:08:13,285 Speaker 1: then there was a sexual violence. They will out of 105 00:08:14,165 --> 00:08:16,645 Speaker 1: being forced to work in the fields from dawn to 106 00:08:16,805 --> 00:08:23,045 Speaker 1: dusk were so long curved and the earth that the 107 00:08:23,125 --> 00:08:27,285 Speaker 1: role was dropping out Barry mister Glover's beating stick, which 108 00:08:27,325 --> 00:08:36,445 Speaker 1: Glover named John Henry think John John even attempting to 109 00:08:36,525 --> 00:08:43,125 Speaker 1: run away multiple times. After attempting to escape six times, 110 00:08:43,685 --> 00:08:47,565 Speaker 1: Johnny Mac stopped running away once he discovered the consequences. 111 00:08:50,085 --> 00:08:53,125 Speaker 1: Johnny Mack was an ike that was slang for the 112 00:08:53,165 --> 00:08:57,605 Speaker 1: tough guys. He says that at Mount Meg's you had 113 00:08:57,605 --> 00:09:00,325 Speaker 1: to be on guard all of the time. You can 114 00:09:00,365 --> 00:09:06,365 Speaker 1: trust you hey, a friend better. On April fifth, nineteen 115 00:09:06,445 --> 00:09:09,645 Speaker 1: sixty eight, the day after Martin Luther King was killed, 116 00:09:10,245 --> 00:09:13,445 Speaker 1: Robert Kennedy gave a speech called on the Mindless Menace 117 00:09:13,525 --> 00:09:16,685 Speaker 1: of Violence, where he talked about the cowardice of the 118 00:09:16,765 --> 00:09:20,085 Speaker 1: bullet like the one that had ended King's life and 119 00:09:20,125 --> 00:09:23,965 Speaker 1: would end his own just two months later. But he 120 00:09:24,045 --> 00:09:28,325 Speaker 1: mentioned another kind of violence too, which he called quote 121 00:09:28,325 --> 00:09:32,485 Speaker 1: slower but just as deadly destructive as the shot or 122 00:09:32,525 --> 00:09:37,605 Speaker 1: the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions, 123 00:09:37,645 --> 00:09:41,525 Speaker 1: in difference and in action and slow decay. This is 124 00:09:41,525 --> 00:09:45,485 Speaker 1: the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between 125 00:09:45,485 --> 00:09:51,245 Speaker 1: men because their skin has different colors. It was the 126 00:09:51,325 --> 00:09:54,725 Speaker 1: institutional violence at Mount Meg's that led to the harm 127 00:09:54,805 --> 00:09:58,285 Speaker 1: that many of its former residents would later commit. And 128 00:09:58,365 --> 00:10:00,565 Speaker 1: this is part of the legacy of Mount Meg's too, 129 00:10:01,645 --> 00:10:05,085 Speaker 1: what the institution did to those children even when they 130 00:10:05,125 --> 00:10:10,405 Speaker 1: weren't children anymore, people like Johnny mack Young and Jesse 131 00:10:10,565 --> 00:10:17,965 Speaker 1: James Andrews. In nineteen sixty four, a new student arrived 132 00:10:17,965 --> 00:10:22,805 Speaker 1: at Mount Meg's, a kid named Jesse James Andrews, the 133 00:10:22,925 --> 00:10:26,405 Speaker 1: same Jesse who twenty years later would be sentenced to 134 00:10:26,485 --> 00:10:30,685 Speaker 1: death for triple homicide. Johnny Mack took notice of him 135 00:10:30,765 --> 00:10:33,445 Speaker 1: since the two boys were from the same area in Alabama. 136 00:10:34,845 --> 00:10:37,165 Speaker 1: The first thing that stood out about Jesse is that 137 00:10:37,245 --> 00:10:42,205 Speaker 1: he was small. Johnny Mack described him as passive, soft 138 00:10:42,805 --> 00:10:48,325 Speaker 1: week new arrivals were always subject to some hazing, but 139 00:10:48,405 --> 00:10:51,485 Speaker 1: it was worse for the ones they called scrubs, kids 140 00:10:51,485 --> 00:10:55,845 Speaker 1: like Jesse, the guys who were easily preyed upon. The 141 00:10:55,925 --> 00:11:00,845 Speaker 1: ones Johnny Body described as suckers, guys like that, the 142 00:11:00,965 --> 00:11:04,405 Speaker 1: vulnerable ones. They stood out like sore thumbs at Mount 143 00:11:04,445 --> 00:11:09,085 Speaker 1: Meg's vulnerability put a target on your back, and right 144 00:11:09,125 --> 00:11:14,525 Speaker 1: away Jesse caught their attention. Even years later, the other 145 00:11:14,605 --> 00:11:17,605 Speaker 1: kids remembered how much more abuse he endured than most 146 00:11:18,605 --> 00:11:20,965 Speaker 1: From what you observed during the time when you and 147 00:11:21,045 --> 00:11:24,925 Speaker 1: Jesse were both at Mount may With Jesse treated any 148 00:11:24,965 --> 00:11:27,925 Speaker 1: better than any of the other kids there, And my 149 00:11:27,965 --> 00:11:30,285 Speaker 1: old thing, I would say he was treating a little 150 00:11:30,325 --> 00:11:33,565 Speaker 1: bit worse because of his side, you know. Like for 151 00:11:33,685 --> 00:11:36,445 Speaker 1: me knowing Jesse and looking at him, I had to say, 152 00:11:36,485 --> 00:11:38,685 Speaker 1: you know, he has a great feminine look about himself. 153 00:11:38,725 --> 00:11:40,445 Speaker 1: So I said, hey, you're going to have a hard time. 154 00:11:40,845 --> 00:11:45,925 Speaker 1: You remember actually seeing mister Blobard hit Jesse with the Bullwin? Yes? 155 00:11:46,765 --> 00:11:50,605 Speaker 1: Did you ever see Jesse hit at the morning Ben? Yes, 156 00:11:50,645 --> 00:11:56,205 Speaker 1: I've seen me. Jesse was assaulted and tortured, not just 157 00:11:56,245 --> 00:11:59,285 Speaker 1: by the staff but by other kids. He was a 158 00:11:59,365 --> 00:12:03,925 Speaker 1: laughing stock, a frequent punching bag, and an even more 159 00:12:04,005 --> 00:12:08,085 Speaker 1: frequent rape victim. Johnny Max says that he and some 160 00:12:08,205 --> 00:12:11,405 Speaker 1: others taught Jesse how to fight, but the way they 161 00:12:11,445 --> 00:12:14,565 Speaker 1: did that was by beating him themselves. Well, one of 162 00:12:14,565 --> 00:12:19,165 Speaker 1: the things that we did was we like passed on 163 00:12:19,325 --> 00:12:21,765 Speaker 1: the rules and you know, like a code of conduct, 164 00:12:22,445 --> 00:12:25,725 Speaker 1: teach them how to survive. Okay, what was the code 165 00:12:25,725 --> 00:12:28,805 Speaker 1: of conduct? But you don't let nobody or do nothing 166 00:12:28,885 --> 00:12:30,765 Speaker 1: you to get away? And you didn't. I will show 167 00:12:31,885 --> 00:12:36,085 Speaker 1: funds of Weaknessess. Johnny Mack and Jesse were released from 168 00:12:36,085 --> 00:12:40,045 Speaker 1: Mount Meg's in the mid nineteen sixties. They'd crossed paths 169 00:12:40,045 --> 00:12:44,725 Speaker 1: many years later under very different circumstances, but as kids 170 00:12:44,805 --> 00:12:48,765 Speaker 1: leaving Mount Megs thrown out to fend for themselves, they'd 171 00:12:48,765 --> 00:12:52,925 Speaker 1: had a certain mentality instilled in them. Hurt them before 172 00:12:52,965 --> 00:13:08,645 Speaker 1: they hurt. You, trust nobody, and never show weakness. At 173 00:13:08,645 --> 00:13:12,525 Speaker 1: age fifteen, Johnny Mack was released from Mount Meg's. He 174 00:13:12,605 --> 00:13:15,885 Speaker 1: found himself with no money and no help, and he 175 00:13:15,965 --> 00:13:18,485 Speaker 1: ended up in a small town where he broke into 176 00:13:18,485 --> 00:13:21,565 Speaker 1: a grocery store. That's how wind up going to jail. 177 00:13:22,405 --> 00:13:25,325 Speaker 1: Just a month after he left Mount Meg's, Johnny Mack 178 00:13:25,485 --> 00:13:28,525 Speaker 1: was locked up once again. This time he was sent 179 00:13:28,565 --> 00:13:33,205 Speaker 1: to the adult jail. I'm fifteen years old. For me, 180 00:13:33,405 --> 00:13:37,045 Speaker 1: godja would be grown ay. They all big and swoll 181 00:13:37,245 --> 00:13:42,365 Speaker 1: up because he's pushing up. And back then there were 182 00:13:42,405 --> 00:13:46,525 Speaker 1: often kids in adult correctional facilities, and that's still the 183 00:13:46,605 --> 00:13:50,765 Speaker 1: case today. This is one of the many unimaginable elements 184 00:13:50,765 --> 00:13:55,045 Speaker 1: of our criminal justice system, shoving children into adult prisons 185 00:13:55,045 --> 00:13:59,005 Speaker 1: and jails to fend for themselves. Given his years at 186 00:13:59,005 --> 00:14:01,765 Speaker 1: Mount Meg's, some of the most brutal parts of jail 187 00:14:01,845 --> 00:14:05,125 Speaker 1: were familiar to Johnny Mack. He told us a story 188 00:14:05,165 --> 00:14:07,485 Speaker 1: about time when he beat an older inmate with a 189 00:14:07,565 --> 00:14:13,085 Speaker 1: metal lunch tray. I need him wait to knocked him down. 190 00:14:14,125 --> 00:14:17,165 Speaker 1: Johnny Mack went to trial for this assault. He was 191 00:14:17,205 --> 00:14:20,525 Speaker 1: convicted and sentenced to three years and at Moore prison, 192 00:14:21,085 --> 00:14:27,045 Speaker 1: a notoriously terrible adult penitentiary in Alabama. Jesse James Andrews 193 00:14:27,165 --> 00:14:31,485 Speaker 1: was also sent to Atmore. That triple homicide that Jesse committed. 194 00:14:32,045 --> 00:14:34,725 Speaker 1: It turns out it wasn't his first time being charged 195 00:14:34,725 --> 00:14:38,445 Speaker 1: with murder. Just three months after he left Mount Meg's, 196 00:14:38,925 --> 00:14:41,965 Speaker 1: in the wake of the abuse and torture, he was 197 00:14:42,005 --> 00:14:44,805 Speaker 1: implicated in another killing, though he didn't pull the trigger. 198 00:14:45,845 --> 00:14:50,285 Speaker 1: He was only fifteen years old. Johnny Mack got out 199 00:14:50,285 --> 00:14:54,125 Speaker 1: of Atmore at eighteen and moved up North. Over the 200 00:14:54,165 --> 00:14:56,805 Speaker 1: next several years, he was in and out of various 201 00:14:56,885 --> 00:15:01,765 Speaker 1: correctional facilities in different states across the country. In New Jersey, 202 00:15:02,125 --> 00:15:05,325 Speaker 1: he was charged with multiple counts of assault and robbery. 203 00:15:05,525 --> 00:15:09,845 Speaker 1: He also has a record in Ohio. But Johnny Mack 204 00:15:09,965 --> 00:15:13,405 Speaker 1: even said in those depositions from the nineties that Mount 205 00:15:13,445 --> 00:15:16,045 Speaker 1: Meg's was worse than any prison he went to as 206 00:15:16,045 --> 00:15:19,205 Speaker 1: an adult. What would you say the level of violence 207 00:15:19,485 --> 00:15:23,245 Speaker 1: was The man made to Fanny at the prodeo time 208 00:15:23,285 --> 00:15:28,285 Speaker 1: Aunt made was rougher than the prison Instachusetts. He had 209 00:15:28,325 --> 00:15:34,365 Speaker 1: to be tough, you know. The event that brought him 210 00:15:34,405 --> 00:15:38,445 Speaker 1: back home to Alabama was a theft gone wrong in 211 00:15:38,485 --> 00:15:41,365 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties, Johnny Mack was living in New Jersey 212 00:15:41,685 --> 00:15:44,925 Speaker 1: and started robbing local drug dealers with a woman named Candy. 213 00:15:45,885 --> 00:15:48,245 Speaker 1: One night, the people Candy and Johnny Mack planned to 214 00:15:48,325 --> 00:15:51,845 Speaker 1: rob had been tipped off that they were coming. A 215 00:15:51,965 --> 00:15:58,485 Speaker 1: shootout ensued. My girl Candy, Yeah, the hardback shotgune. Johnny 216 00:15:58,525 --> 00:16:01,165 Speaker 1: Mack hid behind a couch and Candy came in the 217 00:16:01,205 --> 00:16:05,045 Speaker 1: back door with her automatic shotgun. She gave cover for 218 00:16:05,125 --> 00:16:07,805 Speaker 1: Johnny Mac to grab the drugs in cash and run 219 00:16:07,805 --> 00:16:10,965 Speaker 1: out the back. He was grazed with a bullet on 220 00:16:11,045 --> 00:16:15,845 Speaker 1: his way out. Candy ran out the front and straight 221 00:16:15,845 --> 00:16:18,605 Speaker 1: into the police, who arrested her and hauled her off 222 00:16:18,645 --> 00:16:24,125 Speaker 1: to jail, but Johnny Mack escaped and he fled back 223 00:16:24,165 --> 00:16:30,885 Speaker 1: home to Alabama. When Johnny Matt got to Alabama, he 224 00:16:31,045 --> 00:16:34,285 Speaker 1: ended up back near Pritchard in Mobile County, where he 225 00:16:34,365 --> 00:16:38,165 Speaker 1: was born. After a failing drove a lot of the 226 00:16:38,245 --> 00:16:41,805 Speaker 1: still right. He had a whole drug operation run out 227 00:16:41,805 --> 00:16:45,325 Speaker 1: of two buildings hidden away outside Mobile. He was making 228 00:16:45,365 --> 00:16:48,405 Speaker 1: good money and in a way he was settling down. 229 00:16:49,645 --> 00:16:52,245 Speaker 1: He started dating a woman who had kids and they 230 00:16:52,285 --> 00:16:54,325 Speaker 1: all moved in together in a house up on a 231 00:16:54,445 --> 00:16:58,245 Speaker 1: hill in a community called eight Mile, Johnny Mack was 232 00:16:58,285 --> 00:17:04,525 Speaker 1: stepping in as a father figure. Were warm fall that 233 00:17:04,605 --> 00:17:07,445 Speaker 1: it treats me. He loved them as if they were 234 00:17:07,485 --> 00:17:11,285 Speaker 1: his own, he said, especially the youngest daughter, who he'd 235 00:17:11,285 --> 00:17:14,485 Speaker 1: take a round with him everywhere. He started boxing when 236 00:17:14,485 --> 00:17:16,765 Speaker 1: he lived in New Jersey, so he'd take her to 237 00:17:16,805 --> 00:17:19,645 Speaker 1: the gym with him or out whenever he was running 238 00:17:19,725 --> 00:17:23,845 Speaker 1: errands for the home. But Johnny Mack was still hustling 239 00:17:24,605 --> 00:17:29,125 Speaker 1: selling drugs, still had that Mount Meg's mentality instilled in him. 240 00:17:30,805 --> 00:17:34,045 Speaker 1: Then he met another woman, one much younger than him. 241 00:17:35,125 --> 00:17:37,325 Speaker 1: She was in an altercation with a guy who worked 242 00:17:37,325 --> 00:17:41,045 Speaker 1: with Johnny Mack's operation. She ended up shooting at the guy, 243 00:17:41,285 --> 00:17:44,405 Speaker 1: and when he tried to retaliate, Johnny Mack stepped in 244 00:17:44,445 --> 00:17:48,325 Speaker 1: and knocked him out. Johnny Mack was impressed by this 245 00:17:48,365 --> 00:17:52,565 Speaker 1: woman's zeal. He described her as a gangster. So even 246 00:17:52,605 --> 00:17:55,005 Speaker 1: though he had his family on the hill, he started 247 00:17:55,005 --> 00:17:59,765 Speaker 1: seeing this new woman too. But soon after Johnny Mack 248 00:17:59,805 --> 00:18:03,085 Speaker 1: discovered she was stealing money from him, money that he 249 00:18:03,165 --> 00:18:06,045 Speaker 1: says he needed to support his family. You can't take 250 00:18:06,085 --> 00:18:08,285 Speaker 1: him out by you're taking money on my baby's mouth. 251 00:18:08,965 --> 00:18:12,485 Speaker 1: He was furious. According to Johnny Mack. He told her 252 00:18:12,525 --> 00:18:16,285 Speaker 1: she'd better not come around him anymore, but he says 253 00:18:16,325 --> 00:18:20,045 Speaker 1: she stole from him one more time. Flash, Jane, Babe 254 00:18:20,885 --> 00:18:28,245 Speaker 1: stole my money. I killed him. The Alabama Department of 255 00:18:28,285 --> 00:18:33,005 Speaker 1: Corrections classification summary for Johnny Mac reads Sean and killed 256 00:18:33,245 --> 00:18:39,085 Speaker 1: female victim who was two months pregnant. Johnny Mack was 257 00:18:39,085 --> 00:18:42,365 Speaker 1: in his thirties when he was convicted. He's been in 258 00:18:42,405 --> 00:18:45,965 Speaker 1: prison for thirty six years. He is serving a life 259 00:18:46,005 --> 00:18:49,245 Speaker 1: sentence without the possibility of parole, which means he will 260 00:18:49,325 --> 00:18:51,525 Speaker 1: die in a place where he has spent most of 261 00:18:51,525 --> 00:19:06,365 Speaker 1: his life. In Alabama prison. Johnny Mack Young was sentenced 262 00:19:06,365 --> 00:19:10,085 Speaker 1: to life without parole in nineteen eighty six. By the 263 00:19:10,085 --> 00:19:13,485 Speaker 1: mid nineteen nineties, he had escaped from prisons in Alabama 264 00:19:13,525 --> 00:19:17,925 Speaker 1: several times and had racked up dozens of serious disciplinarian fractions. 265 00:19:18,725 --> 00:19:22,205 Speaker 1: When I came to Bridge, that's the ad that moms vititude. 266 00:19:22,885 --> 00:19:26,085 Speaker 1: That's when Johnny Mack heard that Jesse had committed three 267 00:19:26,165 --> 00:19:29,965 Speaker 1: murders in California. The story he heard was slightly different 268 00:19:29,965 --> 00:19:33,005 Speaker 1: than what's in the legal documents. He heard that Jesse 269 00:19:33,205 --> 00:19:37,165 Speaker 1: was with two other guys, not just Charles I Elina 270 00:19:37,285 --> 00:19:42,565 Speaker 1: lomeboy was that MoMA the California killed somebody. The kinner 271 00:19:42,725 --> 00:19:48,485 Speaker 1: was so henious molded to homeboy running out of the 272 00:19:48,525 --> 00:19:52,365 Speaker 1: building and left him in there. And he had told 273 00:19:52,405 --> 00:19:56,405 Speaker 1: him and he wounded up getting no give room. Johnny 274 00:19:56,445 --> 00:19:59,485 Speaker 1: Mack remembered just how much violence Jesse had been forced 275 00:19:59,485 --> 00:20:03,005 Speaker 1: to endure, so he and another prisoner who knew Jesse 276 00:20:03,205 --> 00:20:07,125 Speaker 1: wrote to Jesse's lawyers. You write the lawyers to Gil 277 00:20:07,165 --> 00:20:13,965 Speaker 1: the Voynu everything on the belief, and then we told 278 00:20:14,005 --> 00:20:18,245 Speaker 1: him about Mamay. Now, Johnny Mack wasn't writing the lawyers 279 00:20:18,285 --> 00:20:21,565 Speaker 1: solely out of the goodness of his heart. He told 280 00:20:21,645 --> 00:20:23,925 Speaker 1: us that he was hoping that Jesse's lawyers would bring 281 00:20:24,005 --> 00:20:27,885 Speaker 1: him out to California for an official statement. He thought 282 00:20:27,885 --> 00:20:32,045 Speaker 1: they'd give him plenty of opportunities to escape to secure 283 00:20:32,125 --> 00:20:34,725 Speaker 1: his runaway plan. Johnny Mack was trying to be as 284 00:20:34,805 --> 00:20:38,885 Speaker 1: helpful as possible to Jesse's lawyers, even finding more inmates 285 00:20:38,925 --> 00:20:41,325 Speaker 1: for them to talk to. We gave him too many 286 00:20:41,365 --> 00:20:45,525 Speaker 1: a day. But unfortunately for Johnny Mack, Jesse's lawyers found 287 00:20:45,565 --> 00:20:49,765 Speaker 1: so many former Mountmeg students incarcerated in the Alabama prison 288 00:20:49,805 --> 00:20:53,925 Speaker 1: system alone that instead of bringing everyone to California, the 289 00:20:54,005 --> 00:20:57,965 Speaker 1: lawyers decided to come south. They talked to those thirty 290 00:20:57,965 --> 00:21:02,325 Speaker 1: two in mates and prisons around Alabama, at facilities like Kilby, 291 00:21:02,605 --> 00:21:07,045 Speaker 1: Saint Clair, Donaldson, Elmore, and Holman where people on death 292 00:21:07,085 --> 00:21:10,645 Speaker 1: row are imprisoned. How would you describe the effect that 293 00:21:10,725 --> 00:21:14,285 Speaker 1: Mountain Max had our youth? But I tell you one 294 00:21:14,365 --> 00:21:15,845 Speaker 1: that was a lot of fear, but a lot of 295 00:21:16,965 --> 00:21:20,565 Speaker 1: hit me man with the wold. They've had me messed 296 00:21:20,605 --> 00:21:23,925 Speaker 1: up as a chip on my shoulder and put so 297 00:21:24,045 --> 00:21:28,365 Speaker 1: much anger and hate inside of you until when giving 298 00:21:28,445 --> 00:21:32,685 Speaker 1: a chance, it's like saying, all of a sudden you 299 00:21:32,805 --> 00:21:34,485 Speaker 1: run through the woods and you was the rabbit. The 300 00:21:34,485 --> 00:21:36,405 Speaker 1: next thing you knew, you come up in your warf 301 00:21:37,565 --> 00:21:40,725 Speaker 1: So you want to hunt you some rabbits too, you know? 302 00:21:42,165 --> 00:21:46,445 Speaker 1: Hear me with a lot of hate. Couldn't help them, 303 00:21:46,565 --> 00:21:48,525 Speaker 1: but they hate Wait the way they treat you, and 304 00:21:49,485 --> 00:21:52,525 Speaker 1: we were we was being treated worth the dull man 305 00:21:52,965 --> 00:21:56,725 Speaker 1: and everybody, the most most of y'all that I was, Yeah, 306 00:21:57,565 --> 00:22:00,685 Speaker 1: I made him me brially most everybody you knew a 307 00:22:00,765 --> 00:22:04,445 Speaker 1: Mountain Matthew later, so PRIs yesself? Would you say that 308 00:22:04,645 --> 00:22:08,925 Speaker 1: you're experiencing had anything to do with your convictions for 309 00:22:09,085 --> 00:22:14,325 Speaker 1: blas later in mine. Yeah, gave me the foundation for 310 00:22:14,405 --> 00:22:17,405 Speaker 1: everything that I am, all that I am proud of me, 311 00:22:17,885 --> 00:22:20,805 Speaker 1: all that I would always be a proud of tomou me. 312 00:22:23,245 --> 00:22:27,605 Speaker 1: There's no question that Jesse did something unspeakably horrible when 313 00:22:27,605 --> 00:22:32,845 Speaker 1: he killed Preston Wheeler, Patrice Brandon, and Ronald Chisholm. And 314 00:22:33,005 --> 00:22:37,725 Speaker 1: yet if there was ever legitimate mitigating evidence, his time 315 00:22:37,725 --> 00:22:42,085 Speaker 1: at Mount Meg's would seem to qualify. And if his 316 00:22:42,125 --> 00:22:46,725 Speaker 1: experience wasn't enough, thirty two other people testified under oath 317 00:22:47,325 --> 00:22:50,445 Speaker 1: about what they had gone through, how it changed them, 318 00:22:50,925 --> 00:22:54,725 Speaker 1: and what they had seen Jesse indoor, but the court 319 00:22:54,925 --> 00:22:58,765 Speaker 1: wasn't convinced. In two thousand and two, the Supreme Court 320 00:22:58,805 --> 00:23:03,605 Speaker 1: of California upheld Jesse's death row sentence. It wasn't until 321 00:23:03,605 --> 00:23:07,285 Speaker 1: a subsequent appeal into thousand and nine that the court 322 00:23:07,365 --> 00:23:11,125 Speaker 1: recognized the traumatic impact of what Jesse had endured. His 323 00:23:11,285 --> 00:23:14,765 Speaker 1: death sentence was overturned and he was resentenced to life 324 00:23:14,765 --> 00:23:22,165 Speaker 1: without parole. Jesse James Andrews is still alive today after 325 00:23:22,325 --> 00:23:25,845 Speaker 1: years in the infamous San Quentin Prison in California. He 326 00:23:26,005 --> 00:23:29,445 Speaker 1: is now at the California healthcare facility, which houses many 327 00:23:29,525 --> 00:23:34,685 Speaker 1: elderly incarcerated people with chronic health conditions. We reached out 328 00:23:34,685 --> 00:23:37,405 Speaker 1: to him and as lawyers, but we didn't hear back. 329 00:23:39,285 --> 00:23:42,125 Speaker 1: Jesse and Johnny Mack aren't the only former Mount Meg's 330 00:23:42,245 --> 00:23:47,205 Speaker 1: kids to be convicted of murder. There's Sam Howard, Kevin Hawker, 331 00:23:48,205 --> 00:23:54,205 Speaker 1: who's Roosevelt young Blood, once the longest serving prisoner in Alabama. 332 00:23:54,325 --> 00:23:57,085 Speaker 1: There are men who left Mount Meg's and committed murder 333 00:23:57,125 --> 00:24:01,885 Speaker 1: within months when they were still just kids. There are 334 00:24:01,885 --> 00:24:04,765 Speaker 1: people whose names were keeping private because they're still appealing 335 00:24:04,805 --> 00:24:09,485 Speaker 1: their sentences. And there are hundreds more people who endured 336 00:24:09,565 --> 00:24:12,805 Speaker 1: so much cruelty at Mount Meg's as children and then 337 00:24:12,805 --> 00:24:16,165 Speaker 1: inflicted serious violent harm on others once they got out. 338 00:24:17,325 --> 00:24:20,525 Speaker 1: They went to an institution where violence was a constant 339 00:24:21,125 --> 00:24:25,325 Speaker 1: eat or be eaten, where they were being abused, being 340 00:24:25,365 --> 00:24:29,525 Speaker 1: forced to abuse others, or both. And Mount meg they 341 00:24:29,565 --> 00:24:33,085 Speaker 1: teach you how to be a better thief, a better killer, 342 00:24:33,645 --> 00:24:38,725 Speaker 1: or better rapists. Mount means turn gas into murderers. That's 343 00:24:38,725 --> 00:24:43,085 Speaker 1: the other Johnny, Johnny body. When I get out of 344 00:24:43,125 --> 00:24:47,805 Speaker 1: Mount Meg, I had a killing mentality. If someone did 345 00:24:47,885 --> 00:24:52,285 Speaker 1: anything to me, I would have killed you. That's attitude 346 00:24:52,325 --> 00:24:55,525 Speaker 1: I left me, And if things had gone just a 347 00:24:55,525 --> 00:24:58,685 Speaker 1: little differently, he too could have easily ended up on 348 00:24:58,765 --> 00:25:02,765 Speaker 1: death row or serving a life sentence. He told us 349 00:25:02,765 --> 00:25:05,685 Speaker 1: about one moment when he was living in Boston where 350 00:25:05,685 --> 00:25:07,805 Speaker 1: he could see just how much the violence and abuse 351 00:25:07,845 --> 00:25:11,765 Speaker 1: at Mountain Meg's had affected him. I was in Boston, 352 00:25:11,805 --> 00:25:14,085 Speaker 1: you know, and I went into this store. So I 353 00:25:14,125 --> 00:25:16,285 Speaker 1: went into the dress room with this big baggy pair 354 00:25:16,325 --> 00:25:18,925 Speaker 1: of pans on and I put about three or four 355 00:25:18,965 --> 00:25:22,245 Speaker 1: pay onto the baggy pair and thee and I attempted 356 00:25:22,245 --> 00:25:25,085 Speaker 1: to walk out. So when I walked out the door 357 00:25:25,725 --> 00:25:28,925 Speaker 1: and alarm went off. And so when the alarm went off, 358 00:25:29,005 --> 00:25:31,765 Speaker 1: I started winning, and this white guys started chasing me. 359 00:25:32,805 --> 00:25:34,845 Speaker 1: The white guy had to call me. I would have 360 00:25:34,965 --> 00:25:39,205 Speaker 1: killed him. Johnny told us that almost all of his 361 00:25:39,365 --> 00:25:43,125 Speaker 1: friends for Mountain Meg's are now either dead or in prison. 362 00:25:44,245 --> 00:25:48,405 Speaker 1: Jenny's former crush, the Boy on the Tractor, is currently 363 00:25:48,445 --> 00:25:52,285 Speaker 1: on death row in Alabama. In the almost forty years 364 00:25:52,325 --> 00:25:56,285 Speaker 1: he's been locked up, Johnny Mack has encountered dozens of 365 00:25:56,365 --> 00:26:00,845 Speaker 1: former Mount Meg's kids within the prison walls. Everybody that 366 00:26:01,005 --> 00:26:05,045 Speaker 1: was in Mountain Bay's with me. Yeah, the kid death 367 00:26:05,125 --> 00:26:08,165 Speaker 1: Row is filmot state. When the old guy in COMMANI 368 00:26:08,285 --> 00:26:11,005 Speaker 1: didn't rape somebody and didn't accute the least one you 369 00:26:11,365 --> 00:26:20,925 Speaker 1: fet the behavior came home weird. I keep thinking about something, 370 00:26:21,005 --> 00:26:26,205 Speaker 1: Superintendent EB Holloway said in nineteen seventy, right before he retired. 371 00:26:27,645 --> 00:26:30,245 Speaker 1: This was three months after a federal court ordered Mount 372 00:26:30,285 --> 00:26:34,205 Speaker 1: Meg's to implement reforms, and just one day after US 373 00:26:34,245 --> 00:26:37,485 Speaker 1: Attorney Ira Dement told a local paper that he was 374 00:26:37,565 --> 00:26:43,685 Speaker 1: considering prosecuting Holloway for child abuse. Holloway said that when 375 00:26:43,685 --> 00:26:46,125 Speaker 1: he came to work at Mount Meg's twenty three years before, 376 00:26:47,005 --> 00:26:49,885 Speaker 1: they didn't send him to teachers, of therapists or social 377 00:26:49,925 --> 00:26:54,965 Speaker 1: workers to learn about child welfare. Instead, he said, they 378 00:26:55,005 --> 00:26:59,125 Speaker 1: sent me to Kilby. Kilby, by the Way, is one 379 00:26:59,165 --> 00:27:05,565 Speaker 1: of the worst adult prisons in Alabama. Holloway continued, I 380 00:27:05,565 --> 00:27:08,645 Speaker 1: had to do what they wanted done. If I hadn't, 381 00:27:08,685 --> 00:27:12,245 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have been here twenty three years. The question 382 00:27:12,285 --> 00:27:15,085 Speaker 1: they always asked was how many bales of cotton have 383 00:27:15,165 --> 00:27:18,685 Speaker 1: you made? And never how many children have you helped. 384 00:27:20,365 --> 00:27:22,885 Speaker 1: It's tempting to think of Mount Meg's as the failure 385 00:27:23,005 --> 00:27:30,285 Speaker 1: of cruel individuals. Holloway Fiddy Matthews and countless others. But 386 00:27:30,365 --> 00:27:33,325 Speaker 1: the truth is that the failure was much bigger than that. 387 00:27:34,765 --> 00:27:37,885 Speaker 1: It's the thing Robert Kennedy was talking about the violence 388 00:27:37,925 --> 00:27:44,205 Speaker 1: of institutions, institutions that not only inflicted violence, but instilled it. 389 00:27:46,805 --> 00:27:50,485 Speaker 1: Why would the conditions of these institutions make a first 390 00:27:50,485 --> 00:27:54,925 Speaker 1: class criminal because one is influenced by his environment. That 391 00:27:55,085 --> 00:27:59,685 Speaker 1: second voice is Ira Dement, the lawyer turned prosecutor turned 392 00:27:59,765 --> 00:28:02,925 Speaker 1: judge who represented Denny and the kids from Mount Meg's 393 00:28:02,965 --> 00:28:07,165 Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixty nine lawsuit. Ira died in two 394 00:28:07,205 --> 00:28:10,205 Speaker 1: thousand and eight, but he was also deposed in the 395 00:28:10,205 --> 00:28:14,885 Speaker 1: mid nineteen nineties for Jesse James Andrews appeal. Do you think, 396 00:28:14,925 --> 00:28:18,325 Speaker 1: based on your knowledge of the superio institutions, that someone 397 00:28:18,405 --> 00:28:23,125 Speaker 1: subjected to those conditions can be influenced in absolutely? Totally. 398 00:28:23,285 --> 00:28:25,685 Speaker 1: You know. I'll give you a perfect example. I have 399 00:28:25,685 --> 00:28:29,805 Speaker 1: one hundred and ten pound rott Willer. He's a gentle job. 400 00:28:30,925 --> 00:28:34,245 Speaker 1: You could take the same dog being a puppy and 401 00:28:34,365 --> 00:28:39,605 Speaker 1: turn him into a ferocious, vicious dog. So I am 402 00:28:39,645 --> 00:28:43,845 Speaker 1: totally sold on the proposition how you trade someone greatly 403 00:28:43,885 --> 00:28:48,805 Speaker 1: influences his or her behavior. My friend Rachel said something 404 00:28:48,845 --> 00:28:52,485 Speaker 1: similar that people who go on to inflict some of 405 00:28:52,485 --> 00:28:57,045 Speaker 1: the worst harms almost always had serious trauma in their childhoods. 406 00:28:58,405 --> 00:29:01,605 Speaker 1: You may remember her from episode one. She and I 407 00:29:01,645 --> 00:29:04,205 Speaker 1: went to law school together, and now she lives in Montgomery, 408 00:29:04,285 --> 00:29:06,965 Speaker 1: where she's worked with both people serving life sentences for 409 00:29:07,045 --> 00:29:10,445 Speaker 1: crimes they committed as juveniles and people on death Row. 410 00:29:12,205 --> 00:29:14,965 Speaker 1: Early on, I called her to talk about Mount Meg's 411 00:29:15,765 --> 00:29:18,125 Speaker 1: I asked her about her clients, many of whom have 412 00:29:18,165 --> 00:29:22,485 Speaker 1: been accused of committing serious violent harm. How often is 413 00:29:22,885 --> 00:29:26,205 Speaker 1: that they experienced childhood trauma? Would you say in your experience? 414 00:29:28,245 --> 00:29:33,645 Speaker 1: I mean, it sounds too neat, but every single time, absolutely, 415 00:29:33,885 --> 00:29:38,325 Speaker 1: one for one. I sort of end up looking at 416 00:29:38,325 --> 00:29:42,765 Speaker 1: people the arc of people's lives retrospectively and kind of 417 00:29:43,405 --> 00:29:46,085 Speaker 1: studying and coming to understand how they ended up on 418 00:29:46,125 --> 00:29:48,245 Speaker 1: a place like death Row, how they ended up sort 419 00:29:48,285 --> 00:29:51,765 Speaker 1: of being the most cast off of all people in 420 00:29:51,845 --> 00:29:54,845 Speaker 1: our society. And so, you know, I noticed a lot 421 00:29:54,885 --> 00:29:57,845 Speaker 1: of patterns, and one of them is this contact with 422 00:29:57,925 --> 00:30:01,885 Speaker 1: the juvenile justice system. And Rachel said something I hadn't 423 00:30:01,885 --> 00:30:05,165 Speaker 1: really thought about, that many of the kids at Mount 424 00:30:05,205 --> 00:30:09,285 Speaker 1: Meg must have felt betrayed. I think every single one 425 00:30:09,285 --> 00:30:12,205 Speaker 1: of my clients was arrested as a juvenile, has some 426 00:30:12,925 --> 00:30:16,805 Speaker 1: deep wound that they're nursing about the way that they 427 00:30:16,925 --> 00:30:21,445 Speaker 1: feel misled or they felt attacked, where they felt abandoned 428 00:30:21,445 --> 00:30:24,365 Speaker 1: by the law and by fingers of authority, And that 429 00:30:24,805 --> 00:30:27,325 Speaker 1: is just something that I can't imagine them ever really 430 00:30:27,445 --> 00:30:31,165 Speaker 1: forgetting or recovering from. But I also just see how 431 00:30:31,765 --> 00:30:34,085 Speaker 1: that level of the trail could just sort of completely 432 00:30:34,125 --> 00:30:38,205 Speaker 1: realign your understanding the world. I now know in my 433 00:30:38,325 --> 00:30:43,645 Speaker 1: heart that nobody does something violent or abusive unless it 434 00:30:43,765 --> 00:30:45,885 Speaker 1: is something that has been shown to them or that 435 00:30:45,925 --> 00:30:49,085 Speaker 1: they've been subjected to. Whatever they've been accused of or 436 00:30:49,125 --> 00:30:52,005 Speaker 1: whatever they've perpetuated is an expression of something that they've 437 00:30:52,045 --> 00:30:57,005 Speaker 1: made through. Some of the tragedy of Mount Meg's is scientific. 438 00:30:58,045 --> 00:31:00,645 Speaker 1: We know a lot more now about how abuse affects 439 00:31:00,685 --> 00:31:04,205 Speaker 1: the brain and the harmful effect of trauma on children. 440 00:31:05,245 --> 00:31:07,925 Speaker 1: We know that our brains aren't fully developed until our 441 00:31:07,965 --> 00:31:12,245 Speaker 1: mid twenties. We know about the negative impact exposure to 442 00:31:12,325 --> 00:31:17,165 Speaker 1: violence can have on young kids. The kids who were 443 00:31:17,205 --> 00:31:20,885 Speaker 1: sent to Mount Megs were victimized by the institution, but 444 00:31:20,925 --> 00:31:25,125 Speaker 1: they weren't the only victims. Preston and Patrese and Ronald 445 00:31:25,165 --> 00:31:29,245 Speaker 1: were also victims of Mount Megs. The pregnant woman Johnny 446 00:31:29,285 --> 00:31:33,005 Speaker 1: mac Shot was a victim of Mount Megs. And it's 447 00:31:33,005 --> 00:31:36,365 Speaker 1: not just them, but their families and their loved ones 448 00:31:36,645 --> 00:31:40,245 Speaker 1: who paid the price for the harm that the school inflicted. 449 00:31:42,045 --> 00:31:45,445 Speaker 1: In other words, Mount Meg's harmed more than just the kids. 450 00:31:46,525 --> 00:31:49,365 Speaker 1: It harmed those who those kids went on to hurt. 451 00:31:50,805 --> 00:31:55,885 Speaker 1: So much lost time, so much grief, so much unrealized 452 00:31:56,005 --> 00:32:01,245 Speaker 1: love and joy. When I started researching Mount Megs, I 453 00:32:01,325 --> 00:32:04,645 Speaker 1: told an acquaintance about the institution and what it did 454 00:32:04,685 --> 00:32:11,045 Speaker 1: to children. He shrugged, looked, unfhazed. It's hard to control 455 00:32:11,205 --> 00:32:15,245 Speaker 1: violent kids. He told me. They were violent kids, weren't they? 456 00:32:15,845 --> 00:32:17,645 Speaker 1: Why else would they have been there to begin with. 457 00:32:19,725 --> 00:32:22,845 Speaker 1: His argument was that Mount Meg's didn't shape these kids, 458 00:32:23,645 --> 00:32:29,525 Speaker 1: They shaped Mount Meg's. I thought about that conversation when 459 00:32:29,565 --> 00:32:32,765 Speaker 1: I found this document from the nineteen fifties about a 460 00:32:32,805 --> 00:32:37,045 Speaker 1: report that J. R. Wingfield, the former superintendent, sent to 461 00:32:37,085 --> 00:32:40,645 Speaker 1: the governor. In it, he said that lots of the 462 00:32:40,725 --> 00:32:43,645 Speaker 1: kids at Mount Meg's were there for laziness and loitering. 463 00:32:44,885 --> 00:32:47,285 Speaker 1: The people we've talked to went in for similar things, 464 00:32:48,005 --> 00:32:51,525 Speaker 1: things like truancy or being out past curfew or petty 465 00:32:51,605 --> 00:32:55,685 Speaker 1: theft or running away. Many went in for the crime 466 00:32:55,685 --> 00:33:00,045 Speaker 1: of having no parents and nowhere else to go. Jesse 467 00:33:00,205 --> 00:33:05,325 Speaker 1: James Andrews went in for joy riding. Look, even if 468 00:33:05,325 --> 00:33:09,245 Speaker 1: these kids had shown some inclination for violence, even if 469 00:33:09,245 --> 00:33:13,125 Speaker 1: they had committed very serious crimes, Mount Meg's would still 470 00:33:13,165 --> 00:33:16,925 Speaker 1: have been a terrible place to send them. What all 471 00:33:17,005 --> 00:33:23,285 Speaker 1: kids need is guidance, safety and help. No child or 472 00:33:23,405 --> 00:33:28,045 Speaker 1: person is rehabilitated by being stuck in a factory of abuse. 473 00:33:29,445 --> 00:33:33,725 Speaker 1: These kids weren't monsters. They were shaped by what they endured, 474 00:33:34,485 --> 00:33:37,885 Speaker 1: what they were forced to see, and that's what makes 475 00:33:37,885 --> 00:33:44,005 Speaker 1: the history of this institution even more devastating. In the 476 00:33:44,085 --> 00:33:47,445 Speaker 1: next episode, the last of this series, we're going to 477 00:33:47,485 --> 00:33:50,685 Speaker 1: look at how former students like Johnny mac still cope 478 00:33:50,685 --> 00:33:58,365 Speaker 1: with their experience and what's become of Mount Meg's today. Unreformed, 479 00:33:58,405 --> 00:34:01,245 Speaker 1: The Story of the Alabama Industrial School for Negro Children 480 00:34:01,525 --> 00:34:04,325 Speaker 1: is a production of School of Humans and iHeartMedia. This 481 00:34:04,365 --> 00:34:06,885 Speaker 1: episode was written by me Josie Deffie, Rice and Taylor 482 00:34:06,965 --> 00:34:10,205 Speaker 1: von Laslie. Our scoop supervisors Florence Burrow Adams, and our 483 00:34:10,245 --> 00:34:13,285 Speaker 1: producer is Gabby Watts, who had additional writing and production 484 00:34:13,285 --> 00:34:17,405 Speaker 1: support from Sherry Scott. Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, Elsie Crowley, 485 00:34:17,445 --> 00:34:20,485 Speaker 1: Brandon Barr, Mett Arnette, and me. Sound design and mix 486 00:34:20,565 --> 00:34:24,005 Speaker 1: is by Jesse Niswanger. Music is by Ben Soli. Additional 487 00:34:24,045 --> 00:34:26,965 Speaker 1: recordings are courtesy of the Alabama Center for Traditional Culture. 488 00:34:27,125 --> 00:34:29,685 Speaker 1: Special things to the Alabama Department of Archives and History, 489 00:34:29,765 --> 00:34:32,645 Speaker 1: Michael Harriet, Floyd Hall, Kevin Nutt, Van Newkirk, and all 490 00:34:32,645 --> 00:34:35,565 Speaker 1: of the survivors of Mount Meg's willing to share their stories. 491 00:34:36,085 --> 00:34:38,525 Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a rating 492 00:34:38,565 --> 00:34:42,045 Speaker 1: and review wherever you get your podcasts. If you are 493 00:34:42,085 --> 00:34:43,805 Speaker 1: someone you know attended Mount Megs and would like to 494 00:34:43,805 --> 00:34:47,765 Speaker 1: be in contact, please email mountmes podcast at gmail dot com. 495 00:34:47,805 --> 00:34:51,285 Speaker 1: That's mt M e i g S Podcast at gmail 496 00:34:51,365 --> 00:35:08,245 Speaker 1: dot com. School of Humans