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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

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Speaker 2: is Robert.

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Speaker 3: Lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick. And hey, we're back to

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Speaker 3: anomalous imagery. In the previous episode of Stuff to Blow

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Speaker 3: Your Mind, we were looking at some photographs that people

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Speaker 3: have wanted to sort into the proof of Aliens Confirmed column,

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Speaker 3: and we ended up talking about reasons why that's not

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Speaker 3: necessarily a wise or well informed move, and we thought

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Speaker 3: we might come back to talk about more images of

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Speaker 3: this sort. And you know what, here we.

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Speaker 2: Are, Yeah, in the last episode, And this is this

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Speaker 2: is a situation where it's probably helpful if you listen

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Speaker 2: to that last episode, but it's not necessarily a part

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Speaker 2: one in part two. So I don't know what you

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Speaker 2: do what you will regarding these episodes. But in the

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Speaker 2: last episode, we discussed the so called El Tannan antenna,

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Speaker 2: a deep sea photograph of something taken in nineteen sixty

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Speaker 2: four that ultimately led to a positive identification of a

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Speaker 2: specific species of deep sea sponge, but also fed a

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Speaker 2: great deal of paranormal and ufology speculation about alien technology

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Speaker 2: and global energy grids and the like. We discussed how

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Speaker 2: images and data like this that dwell in a kind

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Speaker 2: of low res realm of evidence often play into arguments

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Speaker 2: for supernatural or other worldly explanations instead of mundane natural

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Speaker 2: world explanations.

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Speaker 3: That's right. So we were developing an idea somewhat jumping

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Speaker 3: off of some offhand terminology use in comments I've heard

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Speaker 3: in interviews with a science writer and skeptical UFO researcher

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Speaker 3: named Mick West, and I think the phrase I had

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Speaker 3: heard him use at some point was the low information zone.

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Speaker 3: But we were also talking about the idea of the

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Speaker 3: low resolution zone. And so the idea we were developing

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Speaker 3: was that it's in cases of evidence containing less information

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Speaker 3: or existing in a space of lower resolution, that supernatural

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Speaker 3: or alien explanations tend to retain the aura of viability.

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Speaker 3: They seem to some people like this might be a

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Speaker 3: good explanation. And it's in cases of high resolution or

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Speaker 3: high information where the photo, if it's a photo where

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Speaker 3: it's like really sharp and taken from multiple angles, and

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Speaker 3: we have a good idea exactly where and when it

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Speaker 3: was taken, maybe other people can go check up on it.

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Speaker 3: People with relevant knowledge have had a look at it.

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Speaker 3: These are the cases that end up very very often

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Speaker 3: having pretty clear explanations from within the known range of

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Speaker 3: natural causes. In other words, there seems to be a

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Speaker 3: pattern where a fuzzy photo creates way more mythology than

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Speaker 3: a sharp one. And I think this is applical applicable

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Speaker 3: in the broader sense, not just in your resolution of photos,

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Speaker 3: but in the general sense of information. Like evidence, This

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Speaker 3: kind of vague and fuzzy and not well situated within

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Speaker 3: an informational context seems oh yeah, maybe that is aliens.

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Speaker 3: And the further you turn up the resolution, the more

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Speaker 3: accurate information and context you have, the more often it

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Speaker 3: seems like, oh, yeah, that's a plastic bag, or that's

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Speaker 3: an airplane, or that's a constellation of stars.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And as we discussed in the last episode, and

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Speaker 2: we'll continue to discuss here, to whatever extent, you can

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Speaker 2: also cut out the context for the image, or ignore

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Speaker 2: the context and or ignore the expertise in a given

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Speaker 2: field that could be vital to understanding what you're looking

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Speaker 2: at exactly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So the background knowledge of the observer can also

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Speaker 3: be one of the information states, and that can be

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Speaker 3: high information or low.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's not necessarily a situation either where someone

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Speaker 2: is like willfully, I refuse to listen to the experts

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Speaker 2: because because you know, I know what I see, you know,

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Speaker 2: sometimes it's maybe a little more nuanced than that. So

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Speaker 2: I do want to acknowledge that, But just throwing that

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Speaker 2: out there as well. We'll come back to the idea

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Speaker 2: as we roll farward.

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Speaker 3: Now. Another one of the ideas we talked about in

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Speaker 3: the last episode was how popular it seems underwater images

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Speaker 3: in particular are in the UFO, slash UAP and general

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Speaker 3: fringe explanation idea space. Of course, the Eltannan object was

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Speaker 3: an underwater photo, and I mentioned in the last episode

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Speaker 3: the idea that apparently anomalous underwater images are especially useful

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Speaker 3: nucleation points for these types of narratives because they're sort

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Speaker 3: of inherently low resolution or low information. The details are

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Speaker 3: often obscured. Images of things underwater often look weird, but

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Speaker 3: you can't tell exactly what they are, which means you

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Speaker 3: can start making up whatever I explanation you find the

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Speaker 3: most exciting. And I was thinking about how underwater imagery

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Speaker 3: often qualifies as low information evidence in multiple dimensions at once,

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Speaker 3: so like the original image is usually grainy and indistinct

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Speaker 3: if it's taken in visible light, Like if it's a

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Speaker 3: photograph taken invisible light, light conditions are usually low, and

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Speaker 3: sometimes there is, you know, something obscuring the image in

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Speaker 3: the water. Maybe the water is cloudy, maybe not. Sometimes

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Speaker 3: the image is not even based on visible light. Maybe

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Speaker 3: we're looking at a sonar image or something like that,

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Speaker 3: which further complicates your ability to identify what it is

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Speaker 3: you're looking at. And sometimes things are even obscured in

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Speaker 3: other ways, like partially buried or have things on top

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Speaker 3: of them. Beyond all this, objects and formations that may

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Speaker 3: be common underwater do not seem common to people who

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Speaker 3: spend their lives on land and on the surface. Think

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Speaker 3: of the sponge we talked about last time. If you

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Speaker 3: lived on the ocean floor, you'd probably recognize that. You

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Speaker 3: would be like a tree. You know, you've seen lots

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Speaker 3: of these before, but not living on the ocean floor.

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Speaker 3: That's that's totally weird. You've never seen anything like it.

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Speaker 3: You have no idea what it could be.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, as we touched on in that one, the so

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Speaker 2: called antenna occurred as a singular object without any fellow

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Speaker 2: antenna around it. In this one photograph, but previous dredges

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Speaker 2: in the deep ocean had revealed places where they seem

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Speaker 2: to be quite numerous.

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Speaker 3: That's right. Sometimes they're kind of a forest, but in

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Speaker 3: this case it wasn't. It was just one standing alone

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Speaker 3: in the image, so that I don't know, that mean

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Speaker 3: it seemed more monolithic and kind of strange and dangerous

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Speaker 3: and inviting of calling out for some kind of otherworldly explanation. Finally,

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Speaker 3: I was thinking about one more thing about the low

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Speaker 3: information nature of underwater images, especially in the case of

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Speaker 3: deep sea objects. It's difficult, expensive, and sometimes impossible for

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Speaker 3: other people to check the object for themselves because it's

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Speaker 3: on the bottom of the other So you are unlikely

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Speaker 3: to get somebody else imaging the same thing with different

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Speaker 3: equipment in different conditions to get more context and clarity.

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Speaker 3: Unless it's like a like a really famous and valuable

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Speaker 3: thing and you've you know, published coordinates of exactly where

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Speaker 3: it is, there's like huge interest in it. Maybe, but

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Speaker 3: like for the most part, if you're talking about something

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Speaker 3: on the bottom of the ocean, whatever imagery you release

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Speaker 3: of it, that you initially produce, it's that you know

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Speaker 3: that that's going to be all there is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because I mean, ultimately, whether your idea is

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Speaker 2: based in just pure scientific inquiry or if it's based

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Speaker 2: in some sort of paranormal interest or some sort of

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Speaker 2: fringe theory, you're still going to have to somehow get

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Speaker 2: that funding together to pay for an expedition to an

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Speaker 2: extreme environment. And you know, are the numbers going to

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Speaker 2: add up at the end of the day.

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Speaker 3: And in some cases, I think it might be more

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Speaker 3: financially lucrative for an object to remain in the low

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Speaker 3: information zone than it would be to increase the information

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Speaker 3: because that might well dispel the mystique surrounding it.

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Speaker 2: Exactly. Yes, because, as we touched on in the first episode,

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Speaker 2: you know, these images become kind of articles of faith

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Speaker 2: within a given belief system, within a given worldview. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: you go down there, there's you've got to admit, okay,

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Speaker 2: you know, lining up with your hopes and dreams, maybe

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Speaker 2: you'll get that high res image of this thing and

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Speaker 2: it will literally change the way we think about ourselves

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Speaker 2: and we think about the world. But what are the

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Speaker 2: chances that you'll just it'll be that face on Mars scenario,

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Speaker 2: you know where oh well, you realize that once you

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Speaker 2: have some different imagery, some different information to go on,

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Speaker 2: the face is not there at all, and then how

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Speaker 2: are you going to feel?

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Speaker 3: So this brings us to the particular underwater image that

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Speaker 3: you dug up, Rob that we're going to talk about today.

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Speaker 3: This image is the so called Baltic Sea anomaly. Would

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Speaker 3: you like to introduce it?

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Speaker 2: Sure? Yeah, I found this way probably I think a

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Speaker 2: lot of people find it is that you find these

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Speaker 2: various lists of strange, unexplained things beneath the ocean, and

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Speaker 2: they're generally they're generally a weird array of objects and

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Speaker 2: alleged objects, some of which are verified realities, some are blurry,

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Speaker 2: low res images. But yeah. This sonar image was taken

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Speaker 2: by Swedish Ocean X on the floor of the Northern

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Speaker 2: Baltic Sea at the center of the Gulf of Bothnia

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Speaker 2: in June twenty eleven during a hunt for I believe

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Speaker 2: possible sunken treasure. So they were on the lookout with

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Speaker 2: their imagery for you know, things that might be ships,

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Speaker 2: things that might be man made objects on the bottom. Now,

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Speaker 2: the image that came out of all of this, the

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Speaker 2: sonar image, has captured the imagination of ufologists because it

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Speaker 2: does look roundish and many illustrations, and I want to

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Speaker 2: stress that illustrations based on this imagery readily, and these

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Speaker 2: will readily come up and search for you. Don't worry.

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Speaker 2: You don't have to look hard for them. In fact,

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Speaker 2: it's harder to sort of wean them out and just

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Speaker 2: focus on the sonar data they lean into. This kind

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Speaker 2: of interpretation of this roundish object is perhaps a millennium

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Speaker 2: falcon s spaceship, or perhaps something akin to the ship

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Speaker 2: that the engineers have in the Alien franchise.

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Speaker 3: I was thinking something that, yeah, from Prometheus. It looks

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Speaker 3: like that technology style.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, which is an iconic derelict spaceship that has mysteries

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Speaker 2: aboard that we absolutely should on Earth. We actually absolutely

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Speaker 2: should get in there and get some of that right.

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Speaker 3: But I guess for now we're just going to focus

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Speaker 3: on this original sonar image that was released to the

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Speaker 3: media back in the summer of twenty eleven by again

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Speaker 3: Ocean X, which is this Swedish treasure hunting and salvage

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Speaker 3: diving operation.

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Speaker 2: Yeahual image here is definitely in the low information zone,

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Speaker 2: and various critics have pointed this out as a reason

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Speaker 2: that not much can be made out of it, aside

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Speaker 2: from the consensus that we're almost certainly looking at a

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Speaker 2: geologic formation here and not a spaceship, not part of

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Speaker 2: a lost city on the bottom of the ocean, some

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Speaker 2: part of a lot of civilization. Their whole articles speculating

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Speaker 2: that as well, And you know, it's worth driving home

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Speaker 2: like these ideas, just as pure ideas are very exciting,

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Speaker 2: Like who wouldn't want to learn more about a possible

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Speaker 2: alien spaceship on the bottom of the ocean. Who would

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Speaker 2: want to hear more about a lost city that was

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Speaker 2: Atlantis style that was swallowed up by the waves in

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Speaker 2: ancient times. But more likely than anything, this is just

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Speaker 2: geology down there, and if you're into geology, it's pretty exciting.

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Speaker 2: But I guess we have to sort of look at

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Speaker 2: the at the end of the day, perhaps geology doesn't

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Speaker 2: have necessary as much of an excitement value in the

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Speaker 2: mainstream or certainly in the in the fringe. So if

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Speaker 2: you're if you're given two possibilities, even though one is

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Speaker 2: far more likely, some people are just going to go

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Speaker 2: for the the sexier answer, And of course the answer

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Speaker 2: that confirms or seems to confirm some ideas and aspirations

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Speaker 2: one has for.

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Speaker 3: The universe interpretations I've come across in addition to saying

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Speaker 3: this is an alien spacecraft. Oh and by the way,

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Speaker 3: I should say, early articles about this from around the

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Speaker 3: time it was first released often like would draw outlines

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Speaker 3: around parts of this sonar image, like asking you to

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Speaker 3: lean into certain shape interpretations, And one of the outlines

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Speaker 3: that was often drawn was essentially the millennium falcon. So

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Speaker 3: there there's a weird kind of space where they can

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Speaker 3: almost like if you're a journalist doing an article and

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Speaker 3: drawing an outline like that, you can be like, oh,

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Speaker 3: it's just funny. You know, it's a funny joke. But

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Speaker 3: also you probably know that you are getting some traffic

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Speaker 3: from like playing into the hand of UFO interpretations.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've also seen somewhere they're like, okay, these are

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Speaker 2: stairs and then this is you know, pointing out like

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Speaker 2: architectural supposed architectural details on this object. And you know, again,

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Speaker 2: you're you're you're a lot of people if they're seeing

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Speaker 2: this image for the first time, you're giving them all

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Speaker 2: the interpretation and given them the full script for interpreting

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Speaker 2: this low res image.

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Speaker 3: Right, But anyway to come back to. So there are

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Speaker 3: a lot of people who say, yeah, this is a

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Speaker 3: crashed alien flying saucer, or crashed alien spacecraft or crashed

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Speaker 3: ancient human spacecraft from lost you know, lost technology from

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Speaker 3: an ancient civilization. There are also people who say it

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Speaker 3: was a monument built by the Atlantean civilization, So they

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Speaker 3: say Atlantis built this, it was like a temple U.

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Speaker 3: There are various flavors of secret Nazi interpretations. It's a

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Speaker 3: it's a U boat model we've never seen before, some

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Speaker 3: kind of underwater Nazi bunker.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, obviously there's a great deal of Nazi

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Speaker 2: stuff once you get into the paranormal in fringe movements.

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Speaker 3: But what does it actually look like? I mean, if

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Speaker 3: you take away the outlines and everything, what we can

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Speaker 3: see in this image is that it is a kind

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Speaker 3: of roughly circular looking texture on the ocean floor that

250
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Speaker 3: has some parallel lines kind of running across it that

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Speaker 3: you know, you could well want to interpret as I

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Speaker 3: don't know, something they're like grooves or tracks or walkways,

253
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Speaker 3: but also they could just be like layers of rock.

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Speaker 2: You know. One of these images you included where it's

255
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Speaker 2: been traced, it looks kind of like I'm gonna I'm

256
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Speaker 2: gonna throw this out there. It looks kind of like

257
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Speaker 2: one of the helmets of the giant warriors from Nasaka,

258
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Speaker 2: the Valley of the Wind, like on its side. So

259
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Speaker 2: perhaps this is a remnant from that time before the

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Speaker 2: Seven Days of five.

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Speaker 3: Oh well, we certainly wouldn't want to awake it then,

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Speaker 3: but meddlesome men and their war machines they want to anyway.

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Speaker 3: So other claims about this image, So they say the

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Speaker 3: people who discovered it say that the disc part of

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Speaker 3: the object is roughly sixty meters wide or about two

266
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Speaker 3: hundred feet wide in diameter. It was found on the

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Speaker 3: ocean floor at a depth of about ninety meters or

268
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Speaker 3: three hundred feet Okay, so actually not that deep when

269
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Speaker 3: it comes to ocean or seafloor. And again this is

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Speaker 3: in the Gulf of Bothnia, which is the northern part

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Speaker 3: of the Baltic Sea between Sweden and Finland. Peter Lindberg,

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Speaker 3: one of the explorers behind the original image, claimed that

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Speaker 3: the object was perfectly round, and there is a sort

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Speaker 3: of light colored area on the seafloor extending away from

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Speaker 3: the disc shaped object that people say could be a

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Speaker 3: runway or a streak cut in the seafloor from a

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Speaker 3: crash landing. And then the next thing, this one starts

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Speaker 3: to being a real red flag for me. At some point,

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00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:10,880
Speaker 3: ocean X started saying that they tried to return to

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Speaker 3: the object and get more information about it and imagery

281
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Speaker 3: of it, and they said that proximity to the object

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Speaker 3: was causing all of their electronic equipment to malfunction, and

283
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Speaker 3: they couldn't come within I think they said two hundred

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Speaker 3: meters of the object without all of their electronics failing.

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Speaker 2: Hmm.

286
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Speaker 3: I'm a little doubtful of that kind of story.

287
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Speaker 2: You know, given that this is near Finland. I would

288
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Speaker 2: be shocked if no one has suggested that it might

289
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Speaker 2: be the lost Sampo, which of course is this object

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00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:50,360
Speaker 2: from Finnish mythology that was essentially like it brought riches

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Speaker 2: and good fortune and treasures. It was this font of wealth,

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Speaker 2: and if memory serves like the myth is that it

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Speaker 2: was lost at sea during a battle. So I don't know,

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Speaker 2: it sounds like it could be the Sampo. If I'm

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Speaker 2: going to lean into mythology for my interpretations, do.

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Speaker 3: They say what the Sampo looks like?

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Speaker 2: I've seen some illustrations where it is actually kind of

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Speaker 2: kind of round. Yeah, but I think maybe smaller. I

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00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:18,399
Speaker 2: don't know.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Wiki at least mentions a bunch of different ways

301
00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,040
Speaker 3: it's been depicted, and they are wide ranging, so I

302
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,359
Speaker 3: would guess in the original they don't say the shape

303
00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:30,240
Speaker 3: it takes, but it says here it could be anything

304
00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:33,720
Speaker 3: from a world pillar to a compass or astrolabe, or

305
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,800
Speaker 3: a bunch of other things, a coinde, a shield. So

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00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:42,000
Speaker 3: why not a giant disk at the bottom of the ocean.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Now, one of the reasons that people say this must

309
00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,000
Speaker 3: be a spaceship or some other piece of out of

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00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:52,679
Speaker 3: place technology is I think essentially an intuitive reaction to

311
00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:57,320
Speaker 3: certain patterns of geometry. When you look at this sonar image,

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00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:02,520
Speaker 3: it appears to be a large circular disc. In some versions,

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Speaker 3: the circular disc appears to be made out of smaller

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Speaker 3: rectangles or squares, and a circle filled in with rectangles

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Speaker 3: or squares. That doesn't sound like any natural object I've

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Speaker 3: ever seen, so it just looks like it could not

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00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,920
Speaker 3: be natural. It had to be made. Now, regarding these

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Speaker 3: square tiles or rectangular tiles appearance in this particular sonar

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Speaker 3: image the one we've been looking at here. There are

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Speaker 3: different versions of it you can find on the internet.

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Speaker 3: But even the fact that it appears to be made

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Speaker 3: of the rectangular blocks or tiles, I think is actually

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Speaker 3: somewhat influenced by the fact that the image has some

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Speaker 3: sort of digital artifact lines running parallel from top to

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Speaker 3: bottom across the image. And these parallel bars crossing the

326
00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:54,200
Speaker 3: image are not just on the object, but they're covering

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Speaker 3: the whole bitmap, and thus they are obviously a byproduct

328
00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:00,800
Speaker 3: of the imaging process, not a reflection of the object itself.

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00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,840
Speaker 3: The image is also lined up so that these parallel

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Speaker 3: lines are exactly perpendicular to some ridges or lines that

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Speaker 3: seem to actually be on the object whatever it is

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Speaker 3: that seem to sort of run parallel across it. So

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00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:20,880
Speaker 3: I think these digital imaging artifacts create a false impression

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00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,280
Speaker 3: of a kind of right angled brickwork pattern that is

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00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:27,359
Speaker 3: not actually present on the object itself. That's just a

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00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:31,560
Speaker 3: byproduct of the way the image looks with these lines

337
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:33,840
Speaker 3: running up and down on it. On the images we see.

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Speaker 3: Second thing is rob you already mentioned this, but the

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Speaker 3: illustrations this is another case just like we talked about

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Speaker 3: last time of what was originally a low resolution or

341
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:49,119
Speaker 3: low information piece of evidence being subject to mythologizing in

342
00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:53,800
Speaker 3: grandiose elaborations in artworks. So if you Google image search

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00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:58,000
Speaker 3: this object, results containing the actual sonar image will be

344
00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:02,800
Speaker 3: vastly outnumbered by on fictional illustrations. I've included a few

345
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:05,000
Speaker 3: for you to look at here, rob folks at home,

346
00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,919
Speaker 3: You can look them up yourself, just type in Baltic

347
00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:10,800
Speaker 3: cea anomaly. To be clear, these are not photos of

348
00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:14,520
Speaker 3: the actual object. They are imaginative artworks. All of the

349
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:19,360
Speaker 3: interesting and provocative sharp detail shown in them is made up.

350
00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:23,880
Speaker 3: But articles and videos about the object seem to use

351
00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:28,080
Speaker 3: things like this. Nonetheless, it's kind of like, look, here's

352
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,560
Speaker 3: one way of imagining what this could look like up close,

353
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Speaker 3: if you could see it sharply. And for some people

354
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,840
Speaker 3: this seems to suggest it's legitimate to assume that's the

355
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:39,159
Speaker 3: way it actually is.

356
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and be clear, this can also take place at

357
00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:47,840
Speaker 2: kind of a subliminal consumer level, where you just you

358
00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,200
Speaker 2: pull up a bunch of images of this thing, and yeah,

359
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:52,280
Speaker 2: most of the ones on your page are going to

360
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:56,040
Speaker 2: be perhaps leaning into some sort of fantastic illustration, and

361
00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,440
Speaker 2: the illustrations are cool, Like you can't help but look

362
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:00,640
Speaker 2: at this and feel the kind of way.

363
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't want to knock the artists, but I mean,

364
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,480
Speaker 3: just like to emphasize these are not images of a

365
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:11,359
Speaker 3: thing in the world. These are essentially fictional artworks that

366
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:15,400
Speaker 3: are based on a grainy, indistinct original image.

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00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:20,160
Speaker 2: Now I want to throw out another wild speculation. What

368
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:24,240
Speaker 2: if this is a tetromino or a Tetris block, and really,

369
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,840
Speaker 2: instead of trying to get down there to it, what

370
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:31,920
Speaker 2: we need to do is construct a tetramino to interlock

371
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,520
Speaker 2: with it and drop it down and make sure that

372
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,480
Speaker 2: we have lined it up appropriately so that it will

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Speaker 2: fill in the space next to it.

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Speaker 3: Well that's a great point, but it would have to

375
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 3: be a kind of hybrid game piece, because like one

376
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,240
Speaker 3: half of it seems to be a Tetronimo, it's got

377
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,439
Speaker 3: the blocky parts that seem like they could interlock, and

378
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:56,119
Speaker 3: then the other half is rounded like a Connect four piece.

379
00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:59,359
Speaker 3: So maybe it is for a hybrid type game something

380
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:00,440
Speaker 3: we haven't seen and yet.

381
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:03,639
Speaker 2: I mean, this does touch on the rea. It's like

382
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,200
Speaker 2: it's not square enough, It's not it doesn't have enough

383
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:13,200
Speaker 2: right angles that it really shouts unnatural object as loudly

384
00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:17,280
Speaker 2: as some would perhaps insist that it does. It's also

385
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 2: not round enough, it doesn't have the end. That would

386
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:24,000
Speaker 2: not in either case would necessarily mean that it is

387
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 2: not of this world. But certainly like those are the

388
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,040
Speaker 2: sorts of shapes one would want to see in their spaceship.

389
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,879
Speaker 2: You would want to see a more perfect circle, You

390
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,919
Speaker 2: would want to see a lot of angles that that

391
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,280
Speaker 2: we usually don't think of as occurring naturally in nature.

392
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Speaker 3: We will come back to in a minute commentary on

393
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,639
Speaker 3: the sonar image itself and what kind of conclusions we

394
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,720
Speaker 3: should draw from it. But let's say that this did

395
00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 3: actually depict an object to the bottom of the that

396
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,440
Speaker 3: some that looked like it had sort of some blocks

397
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,399
Speaker 3: or some rectangular bricks in it. In the spirit of

398
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 3: the previous episodes, let's talk about sponges that look like technology.

399
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 3: I think it's time for let's talk about natural rock

400
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,920
Speaker 3: formations that look like architecture. There are lots of them.

401
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,440
Speaker 3: You can just google lists of things that are natural

402
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,879
Speaker 3: geologic formations that look like things made by humans or

403
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:29,399
Speaker 3: made by intelligence, maybe alien intelligence. So I wanted to

404
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 3: just focus on one example, because I thought the images

405
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 3: were so striking. Let's look at what is called tessellated pavement. Now,

406
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 3: to be clear, I'm not saying that's what this is

407
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 3: an image of. I'm just citing this as an example

408
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 3: of things that are natural geologic formations that totally look

409
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 3: like they could not be that they must have been

410
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,479
Speaker 3: made by intelligence. Rob, you can have a look at

411
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 3: the photos I included for you. How would you describe these?

412
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,159
Speaker 2: So one of these images, the one with the sunset

413
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 2: over it, this is one of my favorite images. I

414
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 2: used to have this on my computer as was one

415
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,919
Speaker 2: of my desktop wall papers. It's just so splendid to

416
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,400
Speaker 2: look at, and it does. It looks kind of otherworldly.

417
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 1: It.

418
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 2: It has a psychedelic feel to it. It just makes

419
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,119
Speaker 2: you feel nice. A couple of the other images of

420
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:24,919
Speaker 2: this sort of thing, maybe let feel less surreal, less visionary,

421
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 2: and more like, oh, this was once a shopping mall

422
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,680
Speaker 2: of some sort. Like clearly some sort of structure was

423
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:34,919
Speaker 2: built here and it's gone. So I don't know if

424
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:36,400
Speaker 2: shopping malls of the gods.

425
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 3: Okay, but you're saying shopping mall because it's got rectangular

426
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 3: paving stones, right, where you're looking at like a flat

427
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,679
Speaker 3: expanse of rock that reaches out into the surf so

428
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 3: you can see the ocean beyond. And then all across

429
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 3: the surface of this rock there are just rectangular tiles basically.

430
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, rectangular tiles, rectangular spaces, and you get this sense

431
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 2: like if you've ever seen a large building like a

432
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 2: you know, a storage facility, factory or a mall, and

433
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 2: it's been torn down, like and the junk has been

434
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 2: cleared away and you're just left with the with the base,

435
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 2: it often looks something like this, you know, where you

436
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 2: can see where rooms used to be, you can see

437
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 2: bits of tiling, et cetera. So yeah, it it's it

438
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 2: whispers some sort of human origin when you look at it.

439
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 2: If you again, if you don't have the proper context

440
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 2: and the proper expertise.

441
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 3: So all of these photos that you're looking at here

442
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 3: rob are of the same rock formation which can be

443
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 3: found on an isthmus in the Australian state of Tasmania.

444
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 3: The isthmus is called the Eagle Hawk Neck and it's

445
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:50,400
Speaker 3: on the southeast of Tasmania, connecting the mainland to the

446
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 3: Tasman Peninsula. I mentioned that these formations are known as

447
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,919
Speaker 3: tesselated pavements. Tesselated as a synonym for tileds, so it

448
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:02,360
Speaker 3: means the practice of cover a surface with tightly locking tiles.

449
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 3: And it's called this because, of course, it looks like

450
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 3: a tiled floor or a pavement made by human hands. Now,

451
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 3: how on Earth could natural processes ever produce something that

452
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,400
Speaker 3: looks like this? Well, I've found a passage in an

453
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 3: academic book that discusses this very thing. So the book's

454
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,919
Speaker 3: called The Coastlines of the World with Google Earth Understanding

455
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 3: Our Environment by Scheffers, Scheffers and Keletot, published by Springer

456
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 3: twenty twelve. The authors say that these formations are rare

457
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,400
Speaker 3: and they seem to only occur in sedimentary rock platforms

458
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:38,159
Speaker 3: located in the intertidal zone. Intertitle means that the rocks

459
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 3: are covered by seawater at high tide and then uncovered

460
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,159
Speaker 3: at low tide, so they can go through patterns of

461
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 3: wedding with seawater and then drying out. And they also

462
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 3: tend to occur only in low energy coasts, meaning coasts

463
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 3: without very strong wave action. So the authors write that

464
00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:00,119
Speaker 3: these tesselated patterns in Tasmania, in particular, began millions of

465
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 3: years ago when fractures formed in siltstone due to stress

466
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 3: in the Earth's crust sometime between like sixty million and

467
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 3: one hundred and sixty million years ago. In geology, these

468
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 3: cracks that form in large bodies of rock are known

469
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 3: as joints, and they're found in all kinds of rock,

470
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:23,120
Speaker 3: most often appearing as patterns of cracking that extend all

471
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 3: the way through this big body of rock, and sometimes,

472
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,719
Speaker 3: for a variety of reasons, these patterns can be parallel

473
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 3: or otherwise surprisingly regular and symmetrical. Another striking pattern of

474
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,920
Speaker 3: jointing in large bodies of rock that might look unnatural

475
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 3: to some is hexagonal jointing. If you've ever seen, you know,

476
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 3: columns of basalt that have hexagonal shapes. That that's another

477
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 3: type of strange jointing that doesn't look like that could

478
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 3: happen in nature, but it does. That's caused by just

479
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 3: patterns of how certain types of rock cool and then

480
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 3: crack as they cool. In the case of the tesselated pavements,

481
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 3: here you get kind of rectangular patterns of cracks, and

482
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,640
Speaker 3: in the time since the jointing occurred in this rock,

483
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 3: the cracked sedimentary rock has been exposed to the surface

484
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 3: and the tides which have caused it to erode in

485
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,679
Speaker 3: a way that accentuated the rectangular grade of cracks in

486
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 3: what's known as pan and loaf formations. So the basic

487
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 3: difference here is that some of these rectangles seem to

488
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 3: be sort of raised at the outline and then depressed

489
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 3: in the middle, where they can hold pools of water

490
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 3: in them, and then other ones seem to be kind

491
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 3: of raised in the middle and depressed at the outline,

492
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 3: so in the middle they sort of puff up like

493
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 3: a maybe like a cobblestone or like the top of

494
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,959
Speaker 3: a loaf of bread rising over the pan. The authors

495
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 3: write that at areas farther away from the contact with

496
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 3: the water, the pavement spends a longer time drying out

497
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 3: during low tide, which gives more opportunity for salt crystals

498
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 3: to form on top of the rock, and these salt

499
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 3: crystals erode the rock surface, and the erosion happens faster

500
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 3: inside the pan than it does in the cracks around

501
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 3: the pan forming the rim, so you end up with

502
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 3: this depressed pan appearance where it can hold pools of water. Meanwhile,

503
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 3: the loaf formations are closer to the water, there's less

504
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 3: drying in between tides, less salt crystal, less salt crystallization,

505
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 3: and more erosion just due to water flowing in the

506
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 3: cracks in between the rectangles and like sand and abrasion

507
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 3: eroding those. So you end up getting this raised, puffed

508
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 3: bread like kind of appearance. Rob. I've got another image

509
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 3: for you to look at that is more of the

510
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 3: loaf formation down below here. This is the one in

511
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 3: black and white, and man, these really really do look

512
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 3: like human made bricks. But it's a natural formation.

513
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, if you just glanced at it,

514
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 2: even if you I don't know, I guess if you

515
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 2: looked at it long enough, you might wonder why the

516
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 2: bricks are not of uniform size. But certainly it smacks

517
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 2: of masonry. It smacks of brickwork.

518
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 3: So that's just one example. But I hope that should

519
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 3: be a convincing illustration yet again that we should not

520
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 3: always trust our intuitions about what looks natural and what

521
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 3: looks intelligently designed. We are presented with example after example

522
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 3: of things that look like they must be technology, or

523
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 3: they must be architecture, they must have been built by

524
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 3: intention and intelligence, But are actually just totally, uncontroversially a

525
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 3: result of biological evolution or geological and hydrological processes, just

526
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 3: things that happen in nature without any human intervention or

527
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 3: alien intervention. So my point there is that without the

528
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 3: relevant expertise, since a marine biology or geology or whatever

529
00:30:55,600 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 3: it is, it's easy to sort something into the unexplainable column,

530
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 3: when in fact it just like totally looks like something

531
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 3: that is well known if you happen to know about

532
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 3: certain things.

533
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 2: Right.

534
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 3: But to come back to the sonar image from the

535
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 3: Baltic Sea, the Baltic Sea anomaly, which again some are

536
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 3: quick to label an anomaly in need of explanation based

537
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 3: in aliens or Atlantis or secret Nazi technology. Again, all

538
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 3: of this speculation is only possible because we're operating in

539
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 3: the zone of low resolution. One problem here is that

540
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 3: you and I and most people looking at this image

541
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 3: lack context. We don't know much about the Baltic Sea floor.

542
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 3: We also don't know anything about how sonar images are produced.

543
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 3: Is it possible that we could get a higher information

544
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 3: perspective by asking somebody who knows about those things? So

545
00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 3: I came across an article published in February twenty twelve

546
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 3: in Popular Mechanics called Underwater UFO, Get Real Experts Say

547
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 3: by Douglas main And. This article consulted several experts for

548
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 3: perspective on this sonar image. One was Hanumant Singh, who

549
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 3: was at the time a researcher with the Woodshull Oceanographic Institute.

550
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 3: I think now he's a professor at Northeastern University who

551
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 3: has a number of research focuses I found, including robotics

552
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 3: and things in that domain, but also quote imaging in

553
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 3: visually degraded environments, including underwater and in polar regions.

554
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 2: Oh that's perfect.

555
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 3: So what did Singh have to say about the anomaly, Well,

556
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 3: he cautioned that we should not put too much trust

557
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 3: in the sonar image itself for a number of reasons.

558
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 3: He says it was created using a type of sonar

559
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 3: technology called side scan sonar, which is perfectly useful for

560
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 3: locating large objects like sunken ships, but could potentially introduce

561
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 3: false details into an image if it's not functioning correctly,

562
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 3: and he cited several indications in the image itself that

563
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 3: the sonar should not be trusted. He said that there

564
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 3: are signs of cross talk between the two different instruments

565
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 3: that are used to create the image. He says one

566
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,959
Speaker 3: channel is electrically contaminating the other, and this results in

567
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 3: parts of the image on one side being mirrored and

568
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 3: reflected onto the other side of the map. He also

569
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 3: says that the black parallel lines in the image I

570
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 3: already mentioned these earlier just because I didn't have any expertise,

571
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 3: but I just noticed that these create the false impression

572
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 3: that the disc is more made of rectangular blocks than

573
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 3: it probably actually is. He said that these black parallel

574
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 3: lines in the image showed that there are places where

575
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 3: the sonar is dropping out, so that's an image quality problem.

576
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 3: He also says that the edges of the image have

577
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 3: lost detail, also showing that the sonar is not calibrated properly.

578
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 3: This article also consulted someone named Charles Paul, who is

579
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 3: a scene your scientist at the Monterey Bay Aquarium Research Institute,

580
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 3: who said that even if the sonar image is roughly

581
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 3: is a roughly accurate picture of what's down there, there's

582
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,839
Speaker 3: no reason to think it's a spaceship. It could be,

583
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,800
Speaker 3: first of all, a roughly circular rock outcropping. No reason

584
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 3: that's implausible or, he says, quote the result of fluid

585
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 3: or gas venting. Such venting causes inexplicable and poorly understood

586
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 3: structures like pock marks circular depressions that Paul has seen

587
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,720
Speaker 3: are all around the world. In one area off California alone,

588
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 3: he says he has mapped more than fourteen hundred such

589
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 3: pock marks. So gas venting from the seafloor can cause

590
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 3: unusual formations. That's something you wouldn't know if you weren't

591
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 3: familiar with looking at the seafloor. Another possible explanation, which

592
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,359
Speaker 3: I thought was very interesting. Remember how this this thing

593
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 3: is actually not all that deep. It's only about three

594
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 3: hundred feet down. And because it's not all that deep,

595
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 3: Paul says, it could be a pattern created by a

596
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 3: fishing troll quote. For example, Paul says the jaws or

597
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,760
Speaker 3: opening of a troll could easily have struck the bottom

598
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 3: elsewhere and dropped a disc like mound of sediment or

599
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,880
Speaker 3: a trail of pebbles that make up the track marks,

600
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 3: he says. Another option mentioned in this article, Hanu mant Singh,

601
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 3: even said that the original image could have been produced

602
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 3: by fish. He describes how the use of side scan

603
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 3: sonar can produce all sorts of confusing images and often

604
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 3: has to be double checked by passing back again from

605
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 3: another angle to really figure out what it was you

606
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 3: saw on the first pass. Now I wanted to mention

607
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 3: one more article from twenty twelve that addresses this and

608
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 3: interviews a irrelevant expert who had access to some materials

609
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 3: that may have been from the object. This article is

610
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:49,320
Speaker 3: by the science writer Natalie Wolkover. It's from August thirtieth,

611
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 3: twenty twelve, called mysterious Baltic Sea object is a glacial deposit.

612
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 3: So this article was written after the head of this

613
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,240
Speaker 3: or one of the heads of this ocean exc Peter Lindberg,

614
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 3: was in the media again and had been making statements,

615
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 3: I think on a radio program about the nature of

616
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:11,320
Speaker 3: the seafloor object being very mysterious and unsolved and baffling

617
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:15,919
Speaker 3: to scientists. He claimed it had stare formations that may

618
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 3: have been constructed and seemed to be being kind of ambiguous,

619
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 3: but saying things like if this is Atlantis, that would

620
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 3: be amazing.

621
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 2: Now.

622
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:31,759
Speaker 3: Apparently the explorers who discovered this sonar image at one

623
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 3: point gave some rock samples to a researcher in Sweden

624
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 3: named Vulcar Brukert, who is an associate professor of geology

625
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:45,840
Speaker 3: at Stockholm University, gave him some rocks for analysis. These rocks,

626
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,760
Speaker 3: I couldn't find a lot about exactly how they were sourced,

627
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,839
Speaker 3: but they allegedly came from the object, so I guess

628
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 3: they were claiming to have collected them on a dive.

629
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 3: Brukert was then quoted in a Swedish tabloid in a

630
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 3: way that ambiguously suggested he might be like, it's kind

631
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 3: of an ambiguous quote. He says, you know, oh, it's

632
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:10,320
Speaker 3: surprising to find this black rock here, and the ambiguity

633
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 3: suggests he might be signing on to the idea that

634
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:17,240
Speaker 3: this object is actually quite mysterious and unexplainable by science.

635
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 3: But when other journalists followed up with him, this same

636
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 3: scholar was not of that opinion at all, that it

637
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 3: was like a baffling, unexplainable thing. He said that the

638
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 3: rocks they gave him, whether they came from the object

639
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 3: or not, were mostly just ordinary seafloor rocks, with one exception,

640
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 3: which was a piece of basaltic rock, which is made

641
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 3: out of hardened lava and not normally the kind of

642
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 3: rock you'd find all over the floor of the Baltic Sea.

643
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,919
Speaker 3: But it's still not all that baffling because rocks get

644
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 3: moved around, and in this case, it's very likely this

645
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:50,760
Speaker 3: kind of rock could have been left at the bottom

646
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 3: of the Baltic Sea by a glacier, Brookert says in

647
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 3: a statement given for this article.

648
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 2: Quote.

649
00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 3: Because the whole northern Baltic region is so heavily influenced

650
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 3: by glacial thawing processes, both the feature and the rock

651
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 3: samples are likely to have formed in connection with glacial

652
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:11,359
Speaker 3: and post glacial processes. He wrote, Possibly these rocks were

653
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 3: transported there by glaciers. So this is another fascinating thing

654
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 3: about nature. You know, nature is very weird. Glaciers can

655
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,319
Speaker 3: get rocks stuck in them. They pick up a rock

656
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 3: from one place, carry that rock to another place as

657
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 3: the glaciers move. Then when the glacier melts, it drops

658
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 3: the rock, and this leaves behind rocks that are called

659
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 3: glacial erratics, rocks that are out of place because a

660
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 3: glacier carried them to the place where they now rest.

661
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 2: Now, this is obviously a slow process compared to the

662
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 2: imagined fast process of alien spaceship settling down on the

663
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 2: bud the bottom of the sea.

664
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 3: Right, So I would say, based on everything I've read

665
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 3: about this, we don't really know what the object in

666
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 3: this sonar image is. But this one geologist suggests that

667
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 3: the guess is that it's some sort of rock formation

668
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 3: left over by the freezing and thawing of glaciers from

669
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 3: the last glacial maximum, from the last peak of the

670
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 3: ice age. So I don't think I would sort this

671
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 3: one exactly like the Eltannan antenna, where in that case

672
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 3: I would say it's, you know, ninety nine point nine

673
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,399
Speaker 3: percent certain, we know exactly what that image is of

674
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 3: and when you have the right context you can identify it.

675
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:26,839
Speaker 3: In this case, it seems like there's a little more

676
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 3: wiggle room. It's like this is a grainy image. We

677
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 3: don't know what it was exactly, and there are some

678
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 3: good candidates, but there's not really enough information to zero

679
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 3: in on one and be certain. And looking for more

680
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 3: recent sources on this good lord, there are some, but

681
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 3: they are mostly hosted on like tabloid sites that felt

682
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 3: like they were just made of high density malware. They

683
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:55,320
Speaker 3: would make numerous unbelievable sounding claims, like repeating the stuff

684
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 3: about how like all of the electronics malfunctioned when they

685
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 3: tried to get near the object, and they would lean

686
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,319
Speaker 3: heavily on images that appeared to be fake without clarifying

687
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:09,240
Speaker 3: where the images came from, which I find very annoying. Also,

688
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 3: they don't appear to like I'm fine with using like

689
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 3: fake illustrations if it's clearly labeled like this is not

690
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,400
Speaker 3: the object, this is a you know, an artist's imagination.

691
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 3: But also like, they don't appear to add much of

692
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 3: anything new except additional wild claims from the Internet. For example,

693
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 3: vague claims I read on some article with no sourcing

694
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 3: that the object contains metals not possible to produce on Earth,

695
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 3: So I just I don't know if that's worth addressing.

696
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 3: But as far as I can tell, this is sort

697
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 3: of peak low information zone, right. It's an indistinct and

698
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 3: grainy but weird looking original photo produced with a fragile

699
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 3: imaging system that is well known to spit out all

700
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 3: kinds of errors and artifacts, and it is presented to

701
00:40:56,239 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 3: the media in a way that encourages interesting unusual explanations

702
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 3: like you know, for example, just drawing the spaceship outline

703
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:06,799
Speaker 3: around it. It's kind of like, hey, you know, maybe

704
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 3: think about it as a spaceship, or saying that it

705
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 3: might be constructed as if, you know, by an ancient

706
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 3: civilization or something, and then coming up with a story

707
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 3: about why you can't produce more high quality images, electrical equipment,

708
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 3: malfunctions in the vicinity, et cetera. So I don't know.

709
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 3: I checked in, and it seems like the explorers are

710
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:28,959
Speaker 3: they had at some point been working on a documentary

711
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 3: about this, and we're claiming that there would be more

712
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 3: to come about it. But I would say, I don't

713
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,320
Speaker 3: know for now. This is it's stuck in that low resolution,

714
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:41,360
Speaker 3: low information area, and if we if we were to

715
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,919
Speaker 3: get better information on it, I strongly suspect it would

716
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,919
Speaker 3: turn out to be just a kind of interestingly shaped rock.

717
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, it would turn out to be either an interestingly

718
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:54,399
Speaker 2: shaped rock or there would be nothing. And in a way,

719
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 2: that's that's the worst answer, right, because you can always

720
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 2: just move a goal post on it. You can say, well,

721
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 2: I guess the ship moved. I guess it was a

722
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 2: functional spaceship, And so the mystery continues that in a

723
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 2: way that proves what we thought it was, or Hey,

724
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 2: if anyone wants to take up my Sampo theory, well,

725
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 2: clearly some of the major powers of this world saw

726
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:22,760
Speaker 2: that it was the Sampo, and they went and claimed

727
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 2: the Sampo, and they are busy getting the Sampo back

728
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 2: online somewhere to produce, you know, unlimited riches. But in

729
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:31,799
Speaker 2: either case, you know, it's like, like we've been saying,

730
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,840
Speaker 2: it's it's it's a far simpler exercise to turn to

731
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:40,439
Speaker 2: explanations for which we have additional data that we can

732
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 2: We can look at other rock formations and say, yes,

733
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 2: this is potentially the sort of thing that's happening here.

734
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 2: We can look at other glacial situations and say, yeah,

735
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 2: this is potentially the model at work here, and we

736
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:55,760
Speaker 2: have examples of this model. Whereas when you turn to UFOs,

737
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 2: when you turn to the law City of Atlantis or

738
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 2: the Sampo, you know, these are not things for which

739
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:08,359
Speaker 2: we have any additional reputable data to really throw in

740
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 2: to compare it to.

741
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 3: There are no solid examples of those to compare it to. Yeah, exactly,

742
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 3: there are a lack of dependable analogies, which, yeah, should

743
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 3: should make you hesitate before resorting to that kind of explanation.

744
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 3: And the other thing again is just like when you're

745
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,319
Speaker 3: in the low resolution zone or the low information zone,

746
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 3: it's okay to just reserve judgment, you know, you can,

747
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 3: like it's important to acknowledge, like, we don't have a

748
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 3: lot of information here, so you know, you can't really

749
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:37,839
Speaker 3: say what this is.

750
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:40,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, more information is required.

751
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 3: Oh and I forgot to mention this until now. But

752
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:47,279
Speaker 3: also there was an article I found where the divers

753
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 3: from Ocean X did release some photos allegedly of the objects,

754
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 3: so not sonar, but like camera photographs allegedly taken of

755
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:59,399
Speaker 3: the object on a dive. But you can't really see

756
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 3: what you're can add a rob I've shared a link

757
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 3: to a CBC article with you here that includes one

758
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,919
Speaker 3: of these photos. And yeah, it just looks like a rock.

759
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:11,760
Speaker 3: It's just like a like a kind of blurry piece

760
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:14,280
Speaker 3: of rock with like the glare of a flashlight shining

761
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 3: off of it. So it's not really it doesn't really

762
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 3: add any information as far as I can tell.

763
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 2: Hmmm, yeah, I you know, CBC does great work, and

764
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 2: I have no reason to doubt that this is an

765
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 2: actual underwater picture yet at the same time, the closer

766
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 2: I look at it that I get more of a

767
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 2: feel that this is like skin Like this really feels

768
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 2: like I feel like I see the crease between like

769
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 2: thigh and groin taken in a like maybe underwater. I

770
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 2: don't know, is that a pimple I see? Yeah, yeah,

771
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 2: I mean just it just speaks to the ambiguity of

772
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:51,279
Speaker 2: the shot, like it's what is it? It's kind of

773
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 2: whatever you want it to be.

774
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 3: In fact, one paragraph in the CBC write up of

775
00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:00,040
Speaker 3: these photos says, quote, the new photo was released a

776
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 3: lacked perspective and we're apparently taken during the Ocean Explorer

777
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:05,399
Speaker 3: team's most recent dive.

778
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 2: Okay, well there you go, just another piece of evidence

779
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 2: that could be something but could be absolutely nothing. And

780
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,239
Speaker 2: like again, I just really feel like I'm looking at

781
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 2: somebody's leg here, like isn't it is it? I feel

782
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:24,360
Speaker 2: like I see stretch marks? You know. Yeah, I know

783
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 2: what you're saying, Like I'm not just trying to be

784
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:30,280
Speaker 2: a you know, a geek here and you know, making

785
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:35,760
Speaker 2: fun of somebody's UFO information, But this really feels fleshy

786
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:40,799
Speaker 2: but almost but not like one. Like I'm also like,

787
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:42,960
Speaker 2: what's the shape of this person. But oh my goodness,

788
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 2: I don't know.

789
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 3: Well, I see exactly what you're saying. Yeah, it does

790
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 3: look like stretch marks and skin, but it also looks

791
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 3: like it could be striations in sandstone, if you're true

792
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 3: bands and sandstone. I'm not even saying that's what it is,

793
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 3: because once again, for the millionth time, like it's just

794
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:00,720
Speaker 3: not clear what it is, not enough information to decide.

795
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, well, we're gonna go ahead and close

796
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:06,839
Speaker 2: this episode out, but we're gonna we're gonna continue this

797
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 2: line of thought in the next episode of Stuff to

798
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 2: Blow Your Mind on Thursday. We're gonna get into the

799
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:17,720
Speaker 2: realm of Egyptology and of course pseudoscience and pseudo history,

800
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 2: and look at some other examples where if you take

801
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 2: something out of context, if you take something without proper

802
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:28,400
Speaker 2: expertise applied to some degree, then yeah you can. You

803
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 2: can make various interpretations that speak of ancient high tech

804
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:36,879
Speaker 2: civilizations and alien involvement and whatever it is you happen

805
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:39,280
Speaker 2: to look for, or even the Sampo, the Sampo moving

806
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:42,320
Speaker 2: through time and emerging in ancient Egypt.

807
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 3: I'm sure I really like that you're cementing that the

808
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 3: Sampo theory is like a new, a new major thread

809
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:49,799
Speaker 3: of fringe explanation.

810
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 2: I think it deserves its due. Yeah, and the Sampo's

811
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:56,239
Speaker 2: pretty interesting. We could come back. We can come back

812
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 2: and cover Sampo on both Stuff to Blow Your Mind

813
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 2: and Weird House Cinema because there's also a great movie

814
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 2: about the Sampo.

815
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,319
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm gonna have to research this thing there.

816
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 2: Actually there's more than one potentially interesting movie about the Sampo,

817
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 2: now that I think about it. Anyway, that'll be a

818
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 2: tale for another time. So in the meantime, if you

819
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 2: want to check out other episodes of Stuff to Blow

820
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 2: Your Mind, our core science and culture episodes published on

821
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 2: Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Mondays, we do listener mail, On

822
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 2: Wednesdays we do a short form Monster Factor Artifact episode,

823
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:28,440
Speaker 2: and on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to

824
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 2: just talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema.

825
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 3: Huge thanks to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. If

826
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 3: you would like to get in touch with us with

827
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 3: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest a

828
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 3: topic for the future, or just to say hello, you

829
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 3: can email us at contact at Stuff to Blow Your

830
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 3: Mind dot com.

831
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:55,239
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832
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833
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