WEBVTT - The Big Episode on Wikipedia

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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<v Speaker 2>Chuck and Jerry's here too. Just mister Green Jeans and

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<v Speaker 2>Zipper Face and Madam Lucks all here together bring you stuff.

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<v Speaker 3>You should Who do I get to beat this week?

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<v Speaker 2>You get to pick?

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<v Speaker 3>Oh, I'll be Zipper Base of course.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, I was gonna be Zipper Face, but okay,

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<v Speaker 2>I'll be mister green Jeans all right? From what was

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<v Speaker 2>that from Captain Kangaroo.

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<v Speaker 1>The only one I recognize is mister green Jeans. I've

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<v Speaker 1>never heard of the other two.

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<v Speaker 2>I made them up. Oh okay, perfect, you just heard

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<v Speaker 2>of them just now.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm not losing my mind.

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<v Speaker 2>No, you're with it. You're with it man, So Chuck,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm really kind of excited about this one. Today we're

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<v Speaker 2>doing Wikipedia, and as longtime listeners of Stuff you Should

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<v Speaker 2>Know are already aware, we have a standing ban for

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<v Speaker 2>our writers on using Wikipedia as a source. Don't even

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<v Speaker 2>peek at it. Maybe maybe to confirm a date or

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<v Speaker 2>something like that, but just leave Wikipedia out of it.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's really twofold. There's two reasons. One, it's long

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<v Speaker 2>been notoriously unreliable because anybody can edit any page or

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<v Speaker 2>write whatever they want on a Wikipedia page, so that

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<v Speaker 2>inherently makes it unreliable by nature. And number two, we

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<v Speaker 2>would never want to be accused of using Wikipedia as

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<v Speaker 2>like our source article. And when you read how some

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<v Speaker 2>topic works, it's really difficult for that not to infect

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<v Speaker 2>the way that you interpret it and report it later on,

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<v Speaker 2>meaning that you could accidentally kind of copy the structure

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<v Speaker 2>of a Wikipedia article. We never want to do that.

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<v Speaker 2>So those two reasons we've always kind of banned Wikipedia.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, yeah, I mean we don't use ourselves except for,

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<v Speaker 1>like you said, you know, confirmation of the odd thing.

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<v Speaker 1>Occasionally I will use it as a I will go

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<v Speaker 1>to the and we've talked about this too, the links

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<v Speaker 1>to the original articles and write papers and studies and

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<v Speaker 1>things like that. It could be handy, and it's handy

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<v Speaker 1>in my everyday life, but we've never used it. And

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<v Speaker 1>that's why it's even though it shouldn't bother me, it

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<v Speaker 1>still gets under my skin when and I don't read

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<v Speaker 1>reviews that much, but when people say like.

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<v Speaker 3>Well these go do a suit down read Wikipedia articles

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<v Speaker 3>to you.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, right, Because people say that they do say that,

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<v Speaker 2>and we want them to be able to be wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

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<v Speaker 2>The thing is, I have to say this. I haven't.

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<v Speaker 2>I haven't decided we need to alter our editorial policies

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<v Speaker 2>or anything like that. But after researching Wikipedia, I have

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<v Speaker 2>come to have a slightly different, actually a radically different

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<v Speaker 2>opinion of Wikipedia as a whole, collectively put together, and

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<v Speaker 2>just what it is, what it stands for, and just

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<v Speaker 2>how reliable it is. Turns out like our view was

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<v Speaker 2>maybe a little rooted in pre twenty thirteen, twenty twelve,

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<v Speaker 2>and it may be time to just kind of evolve,

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<v Speaker 2>but still again not touch our editorial policy.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean I've always You've always been the one who

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<v Speaker 1>was a little more grudgey.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, I thought that was both of us. I thought

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<v Speaker 2>we'd agreed on that. Huh.

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<v Speaker 1>No, I mean I don't think we should use it

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<v Speaker 1>for a reference, But I've always enjoyed the site, and

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<v Speaker 1>I think you've always been a little more had your

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<v Speaker 1>nose turned up a little more, which I totally respect.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know if I would characterize it as nose

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<v Speaker 2>turned up. I'm not sure what it is, but I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know is it nose turned up? Is that what

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<v Speaker 2>I've been doing all these years.

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<v Speaker 1>Maybe, but hey, you're in a you're an educated.

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<v Speaker 2>Smart toast about town dude.

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<v Speaker 1>No, and I think you've always just been a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit like that's just not for me, which I get.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, Well, then I'm here to say I renounced

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<v Speaker 2>that elitist view and I am a lot more accepting

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<v Speaker 2>of Wikipedia and what it is and what it does.

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<v Speaker 3>All right, Okay, great, I guess.

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<v Speaker 2>Call me Saul from now on. Oh wait, Paul, you

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<v Speaker 2>better I head it backwards, didn't.

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<v Speaker 3>I are you speaking biblicaly? Yeah, biblicy, bibugy, bibby. I

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<v Speaker 3>don't know. Let's not get into that.

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<v Speaker 1>We should quickly just go through a what it is,

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<v Speaker 1>and Dave helped us out with this and just a

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<v Speaker 1>few sort of fun stats at the beginning. But Wikipedia,

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<v Speaker 1>of course, is an online encyclopedia created or you know,

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<v Speaker 1>maintained by wikipedians who are users, just everyday people.

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<v Speaker 3>So that's what it is.

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<v Speaker 1>But what it really is is the large's reference work ever,

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<v Speaker 1>created ninety times larger than the one hundred and twenty

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<v Speaker 1>volume encyclop Encyclopedia Britannica.

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<v Speaker 2>That's IMPRESSIB sixty two.

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<v Speaker 1>Million articles, three hundred plus languages, four billion plus visitors

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<v Speaker 1>a month, edging up towards three hundred thousand Wikipedians or

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<v Speaker 1>Wikipedia editors.

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<v Speaker 3>And that's all I got.

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<v Speaker 1>But actually I got one more I did see And

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<v Speaker 1>this is in two thousand and eight, so this is

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<v Speaker 1>a long time ago. There was one computer scientist who

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<v Speaker 1>estimated that up to that point there were one hundred

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<v Speaker 1>million hours spent developing and getting Wikipedia up to that point.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow. Did you mention how many edits are made every second?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, I didn't think you did, And I'm glad you

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<v Speaker 2>didn't because this one's my favorite.

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<v Speaker 3>You like it.

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<v Speaker 2>This is a I think a twenty twenty two estimate.

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<v Speaker 2>Five point two Wikipedia edits are made every second. Wow,

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<v Speaker 2>And each month fourteen million edits are made. And you

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<v Speaker 2>as we kind of talk about how Wikipedia actually works,

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<v Speaker 2>that will become more and more significant as we go.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, for sure.

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<v Speaker 1>So, I mean that's sort of the overview of some

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<v Speaker 1>stats and how it's defined, but what it really is,

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<v Speaker 1>and they've kind of nailed it on the head as

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<v Speaker 1>far as their ethos. It's kind of a utopian idea

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<v Speaker 1>and an experiment that people can get on the Internet,

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<v Speaker 1>and not justly insults, but they can get on the

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<v Speaker 1>Internet and create an important volume of knowledge for people.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I saw a great quote that said, it's a

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<v Speaker 2>good thing that Wikipedia works in practice, because it certainly

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't work in theory.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh interesting.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and no matter where you are around the world,

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<v Speaker 2>that's not one hundred percent true. But in a large area,

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<v Speaker 2>a swath of the world, there are Wikipedias for you

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<v Speaker 2>in your language about your culture. Whether you speak Zulu

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<v Speaker 2>or Tartar, or Sanskrit, Old English, Creole, Haitian Esperanto, Yoruba, Piedmontese, Yiddish,

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<v Speaker 2>all of them have their own Wikipedia. There's all a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of different WIKIPEDIAI I'm just adding eye to anything

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<v Speaker 2>plural from now on. That's my new thing. But it's

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<v Speaker 2>really impressive, like the idea that people came together and

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<v Speaker 2>did this for free as volunteers, and now we have,

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<v Speaker 2>like you said, by far, the largest reference work ever created.

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<v Speaker 1>That's right, a site and we'll get into all this,

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<v Speaker 1>the whys of all this, but you know it's a

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<v Speaker 1>site with no ads. It is a very low fi

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<v Speaker 1>site that is overseen by the Wikimedia Yeah, that's right,

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<v Speaker 1>Wikimedia Foundation.

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<v Speaker 3>It is funded by donations.

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<v Speaker 1>I know at times when you go to Wikipedia, everyone

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<v Speaker 1>but you, that is, occasionally you might see a little

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<v Speaker 1>a hat out and said, hey, wouldn't you drop a

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<v Speaker 1>couple of bucks in this thing if you like using

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<v Speaker 1>the site.

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<v Speaker 2>I've donated to Wikipedia. Now I get emails for it too.

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<v Speaker 3>I see. That's how they get you.

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<v Speaker 2>You give them an inch and they take a mile.

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<v Speaker 2>You know.

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<v Speaker 1>Operating budget of about one hundred and sixty eight million

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<v Speaker 1>dollars a year, which is surprising to me. I didn't

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<v Speaker 1>know it would cost that much.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, I thought that was low. I was surprised. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean it's one of the biggest websites in the

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<v Speaker 2>entire world. I think it's number three or five, depending

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<v Speaker 2>who you ask for number of visits monthly visits like.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but for something to have be completely created for free,

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<v Speaker 1>mm hm, that seems high.

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<v Speaker 2>I get that. But one hundred and sixty five million

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<v Speaker 2>of that is Jimmy Wales's compensation, right, and let's talk

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<v Speaker 2>about who Jimmy Wales is. That's the lie, by the way, everybody.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we should get into the history of it and

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<v Speaker 1>hop in the old wayback machine. Oh, fire it up.

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<v Speaker 1>We're not gonna have to go far, so we don't

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<v Speaker 1>need much fuel. Trying to be more efficient with our

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<v Speaker 1>travels these days in this thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we're using hamsters instead of kerosene lately.

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<v Speaker 3>That's right.

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<v Speaker 1>So we're gonna go back to the mid nineteen nineties

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<v Speaker 1>when the World Wide Web was just a young babe

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<v Speaker 1>in the crib.

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<v Speaker 3>And very adorably.

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<v Speaker 1>When all these websites websites started popping up, there were

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<v Speaker 1>people that were like, hey, you know what we need

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<v Speaker 1>now is we got to be people, got to be

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<v Speaker 1>able to find this stuff, So we need web directories.

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<v Speaker 1>This is obviously before Google was a just a very

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<v Speaker 1>convenient way or any or Bang or you know your

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<v Speaker 1>search engine of choice.

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<v Speaker 2>Don't leave Edge out her Edge.

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<v Speaker 3>Had come along.

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<v Speaker 1>So in nineteen ninety four, Yahoo had a pretty popular

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<v Speaker 1>web directory going on. And if you're young enough to

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<v Speaker 1>where you don't even know what that means, that means

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<v Speaker 1>literally you would go to a page and it would say,

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<v Speaker 1>like sports entertainment, kind of like a newspaper.

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<v Speaker 2>Here's all ten websites on sports.

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<v Speaker 1>Exactly, and it would list those websites. But then came

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<v Speaker 1>along a company called Bomus. It was an early dot

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<v Speaker 1>com who said no, you know what I think we

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<v Speaker 1>should do, like an open source version of this web

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<v Speaker 1>directory and we'll call it a webring.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And the whole premise was if you were a

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<v Speaker 2>part of the webring, your site was you would have

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<v Speaker 2>a little thing saying like baseball or something like that

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<v Speaker 2>the bottom of your site, and that was your connection

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<v Speaker 2>to the webring, and you could click next and it

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<v Speaker 2>would take you to the next site that had been

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<v Speaker 2>connected to the first site, because they're both about baseball

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<v Speaker 2>or something way more niche than that. And anybody, because

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<v Speaker 2>like you said, it was open source, could make their

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<v Speaker 2>own webring. There were usually webmasters who looked at the sites,

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<v Speaker 2>approved them, actually put them together. But eventually, as you

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<v Speaker 2>had more and more sites added to this ring, you

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<v Speaker 2>had a more and more dense collection of information about

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<v Speaker 2>one usually fairly niche topic. Apparently Pamela Anderson was like

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<v Speaker 2>one of the biggest webrings right out of the gate

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<v Speaker 2>back in nineteen ninety six. But that was the premise

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<v Speaker 2>of what Wikipedia eventually was built on. It was open source,

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<v Speaker 2>people could contribute, and the the initial body of knowledge

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<v Speaker 2>was built upon by more and more people.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and Bomas got popular. They kind of focused on

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<v Speaker 1>manned stuff for lack of a better term, and I

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<v Speaker 1>think that's what they literally called it. It was like

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<v Speaker 1>car things and sports things, Pamela Anderson. And then they

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<v Speaker 1>quickly realized, hey, naked women on the Internet performs really well,

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<v Speaker 1>as it turns out, so they really started focusing on

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<v Speaker 1>that kind of adult material. I guess to call it

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<v Speaker 1>something a little tame and chiefly nude pictures of women.

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<v Speaker 1>And they really drilled down on that and got very,

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<v Speaker 1>very popular because of that, but then pivoted pretty quickly

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<v Speaker 1>because Jimmy Wales, the guy you mentioned, one of the

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<v Speaker 1>founders of Bomas, had a larger, more pure vision in

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<v Speaker 1>mind when he said, hey, I think we could create

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<v Speaker 1>a free encyclopedia. So we founded new Pedia, which was

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<v Speaker 1>financed by Bone.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and everybody uses an encyclopedia, whether you just need

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<v Speaker 2>to make a quick reference, whether you're a kid writing

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<v Speaker 2>a research paper, whether you're a parent researching your kid's

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<v Speaker 2>research paper. Like, people just need an encyclopedia. It's a

0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:16.200
<v Speaker 2>basic thing. So let's create one and then let's sell

0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:19.360
<v Speaker 2>ads against it. There's nothing wrong with that. That's what

0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:21.600
<v Speaker 2>we do. We put out free content and then there's

0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:25.000
<v Speaker 2>ads that like that was essentially the basic premise of

0:12:25.000 --> 0:12:30.600
<v Speaker 2>websites forever and still generally is right. The thing about

0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:33.040
<v Speaker 2>it that made it a little more than just like

0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:37.640
<v Speaker 2>a money making scheme was that from the outset, James

0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:43.240
<v Speaker 2>Wales and his partner, a guy named Larry Sanger, were really,

0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:46.560
<v Speaker 2>really like they placed a tremendous amount of emphasis on

0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:51.880
<v Speaker 2>truth and correctness and their articles being error free. So

0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:54.920
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't just something they slapped together. It had nothing

0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:57.400
<v Speaker 2>to do with long tail or any terrible ideas like that.

0:12:57.720 --> 0:13:01.320
<v Speaker 2>It was really well researched article was vetted by academics

0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:04.680
<v Speaker 2>and professionals, with ads sold against it. That was new

0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:08.040
<v Speaker 2>Pedia and it was a great idea, except that in

0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:12.360
<v Speaker 2>the like go go hustle early part of the Internet

0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:14.600
<v Speaker 2>where you could just get things in like that, New

0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:18.560
<v Speaker 2>Pedia was glacially slow, and it was that was ultimately

0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:19.280
<v Speaker 2>its downfall.

0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:22.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for sure, And that's in you, by the way,

0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:26.040
<v Speaker 1>not in ew in Upedia. It was slow because they,

0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:28.080
<v Speaker 1>like you said, they wanted to get things right. There

0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:32.560
<v Speaker 1>was a seven step process in place before anything was published,

0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:37.000
<v Speaker 1>so it was sort of the traditional publishing model that

0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:40.319
<v Speaker 1>had been used for you know how long However, long

0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:43.600
<v Speaker 1>publishing traditional publishing had been around like this, which is,

0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:47.600
<v Speaker 1>you you have something reviewed, whether you work for a

0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:50.160
<v Speaker 1>newspaper and you do your fact checking, or you have

0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:53.240
<v Speaker 1>your editor in chief checking on things. In this case,

0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:55.960
<v Speaker 1>Larry Sanger was the editor in chief of new Pedia,

0:13:56.760 --> 0:14:00.360
<v Speaker 1>or you know, have things reviewed by experts and then

0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:02.720
<v Speaker 1>you published. That was what they were doing sort of

0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:06.120
<v Speaker 1>in that order. You write something, you review it, review

0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:09.360
<v Speaker 1>it through that seven step process, and then you publish

0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:10.040
<v Speaker 1>it online.

0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:12.959
<v Speaker 3>And it was, like you said, slow.

0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:15.400
<v Speaker 1>I think twenty one articles came out in that first year,

0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:20.880
<v Speaker 1>and Sanger, it seemed like, in particular, was pretty frustrated

0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:21.680
<v Speaker 1>with that speed.

0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:24.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, for sure, getting content out.

0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:27.840
<v Speaker 2>For sure. So just put that aside. These guys are

0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:30.520
<v Speaker 2>kind of in suspended animation at this moment. In I

0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:33.640
<v Speaker 2>think nineteen ninety nine, end of nineteen ninety nine, a

0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:35.720
<v Speaker 2>few years earlier earlier than that, there was a guy

0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:38.680
<v Speaker 2>named Wag Cunningham in the very early nineties. He was

0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:41.000
<v Speaker 2>a software engineer. He was trying to figure out how

0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:47.600
<v Speaker 2>to share ideas at his company that anybody at the

0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:50.040
<v Speaker 2>company could like kind of contribute to, right, So he

0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:54.520
<v Speaker 2>actually took an Apple program called HyperCard and created a

0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:59.160
<v Speaker 2>hypertext program that he called quick weeb I believe was

0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:02.880
<v Speaker 2>the first name for and that was basically where anybody

0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:06.120
<v Speaker 2>could go into this program and contribute to this body

0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:09.040
<v Speaker 2>of knowledge, this body of information, and it would grow

0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:11.240
<v Speaker 2>and grow and grow, and things would link to other things.

0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:18.320
<v Speaker 2>That's hypertext and very fortunately. Ward Cunningham went on vacation

0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:22.000
<v Speaker 2>to Hawaii also in the early nineties, and he noticed

0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:26.400
<v Speaker 2>that there were little airport shuttles called wiki wiki airport buses,

0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:29.520
<v Speaker 2>which means quick wiki means quick and he just loved

0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:32.480
<v Speaker 2>that name. So he changed the name from quick web

0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:37.000
<v Speaker 2>to wiki wiki Web, and that was the first wiki.

0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:39.400
<v Speaker 2>What we understand is a wiki a bunch of user

0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:43.920
<v Speaker 2>generated content that anybody can contribute to and edit and

0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:46.920
<v Speaker 2>link to other stuff. The whole thing just becomes self

0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:50.040
<v Speaker 2>referential and grows as a result.

0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:53.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and it was basically, in his mind, a way

0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:58.640
<v Speaker 1>for programmers to talk to one another about programming. But

0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:02.920
<v Speaker 1>he realized he was on to a larger concept. Not

0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:05.400
<v Speaker 1>so much that he tried to get a patent on

0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:09.040
<v Speaker 1>the concept of a wiki, which was probably a grave error,

0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:11.720
<v Speaker 1>but he said at the time he didn't think like

0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:15.000
<v Speaker 1>anyone would be interested in something like that, so it

0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:16.040
<v Speaker 1>wasn't worth pursuing.

0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:18.120
<v Speaker 3>The other thing we should mention about.

0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:22.360
<v Speaker 1>Ward Cunningham is he has now been credited with what's

0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:23.440
<v Speaker 1>known as Cunningham's law.

0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:24.160
<v Speaker 3>Have you ever heard of this?

0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:25.080
<v Speaker 2>I have?

0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:30.080
<v Speaker 1>Which is kind of the foundation of the Internet in

0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:33.400
<v Speaker 1>some ways, and definitely Wikipedia, which is he said the

0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:36.800
<v Speaker 1>best way to get a correct answer online is not

0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:40.600
<v Speaker 1>by asking a question, but by posing a wrong answer.

0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:43.880
<v Speaker 1>And it was sort of a theory but has kind

0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:45.640
<v Speaker 1>of proved to be true in his mind at least.

0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:48.800
<v Speaker 1>And I agree that, like, when you ask someone something online,

0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:51.600
<v Speaker 1>it can be very hard or slow to get a

0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:54.960
<v Speaker 1>correct answer, but if you post something wrong then people

0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:57.680
<v Speaker 1>are very very quick to correct you. And so that

0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:01.680
<v Speaker 1>was sort of the basis of his WikiWikiWeb with programmers

0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:02.520
<v Speaker 1>talking to one another.

0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:05.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and it's preserved at wiki dot C two dot com,

0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:07.640
<v Speaker 2>And like, I can't make heads or tails of any

0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:10.359
<v Speaker 2>of it, but it's still there. It's super cute and

0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:13.760
<v Speaker 2>quaint looking, but it's neat. The usability is really amazing too,

0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:15.320
<v Speaker 2>especially for what he built it on.

0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:18.760
<v Speaker 3>That'd be fun if you could go to a year

0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:19.760
<v Speaker 3>of the Internet.

0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:22.520
<v Speaker 2>I know, what I'm man, and I think you can

0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:23.920
<v Speaker 2>on Internet archive.

0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:29.360
<v Speaker 1>No, I mean like turn your Internet into two thousand,

0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:32.080
<v Speaker 1>like two thousand and one or nineteen ninety seven, and

0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:35.000
<v Speaker 1>not just read things, but have it just be like

0:17:35.040 --> 0:17:36.240
<v Speaker 1>from that year and what it was like.

0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:39.040
<v Speaker 2>I got to just give check GPT like three more months.

0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:40.840
<v Speaker 3>Right, you're probably right.

0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:44.200
<v Speaker 2>So now we're going to come back to Jimmy Wales

0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:47.520
<v Speaker 2>Larry Sanger and this dispute over who came up with

0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:50.720
<v Speaker 2>the idea of taking the wiki concept that Ward Cunningham

0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:54.000
<v Speaker 2>came up with and applying it to the encyclopedia concept

0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:56.760
<v Speaker 2>that Wales and Sanger had come up with new Pedia.

0:17:56.840 --> 0:18:00.159
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't ultimately matter, but just to name check, a

0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:03.240
<v Speaker 2>guy named Jeremy Rosenfeld was a bonus employee. He's the

0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:05.520
<v Speaker 2>one who Jimmy Whale says came up with the idea

0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:08.679
<v Speaker 2>of using a wiki. Larry Sanger said he came up

0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:10.920
<v Speaker 2>with the idea after having dinner with a guy named

0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:14.040
<v Speaker 2>Ben Kovitz. He says he even remembers that he ordered

0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:16.719
<v Speaker 2>enchiladas at the dinner. That's how much he remembers it

0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:21.080
<v Speaker 2>either way, regardless, within two weeks of that dinner, that

0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:25.040
<v Speaker 2>Larry Sanger had where he was introduced to the concept

0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:29.399
<v Speaker 2>of a wiki. New Pedia had become a wiki, and

0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:31.439
<v Speaker 2>the new Pedia advisory board was like, we don't like

0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:33.679
<v Speaker 2>this idea. The smells of like brand new stuff and

0:18:33.720 --> 0:18:37.200
<v Speaker 2>we're afraid of it. And also, what's this whole concept

0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:44.040
<v Speaker 2>of write, publish and then review. That's that's like sacrilegious,

0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:47.640
<v Speaker 2>Like you can't do that. And so Wales and Sanger said,

0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:49.800
<v Speaker 2>all right, you guys stay over here with new Pedia.

0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:51.800
<v Speaker 2>We're gonna go over here with our thing. We're gonna

0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:56.439
<v Speaker 2>call it Wikipedia, and Wikipedia within two weeks was born

0:18:56.840 --> 0:19:00.520
<v Speaker 2>on January fifteenth, two thousand and one. Larry's had that

0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:03.240
<v Speaker 2>dinner on January second, two thousand and one.

0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:03.960
<v Speaker 3>That's right.

0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:08.640
<v Speaker 1>And as far as that claim for what it's worth,

0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:14.800
<v Speaker 1>the actual Wikipedia article on Sanger confirms that it was him. Well,

0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:17.520
<v Speaker 1>then I don't know, true, I don't know Jimmy Wales

0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:21.639
<v Speaker 1>just begrudgingly allows that to stay there or not. But

0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:25.840
<v Speaker 1>everything I saw kind of said it was Sanger. So

0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:27.920
<v Speaker 1>just like I said, take it for what it's worth.

0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:30.679
<v Speaker 2>It's funny you mentioned Jimmy Wales begrudgingly just letting it

0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:33.439
<v Speaker 2>stay there because He was caught very early on in

0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:36.520
<v Speaker 2>the early days of Wikipedia, editing the Bonus dot com

0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:41.840
<v Speaker 2>Wikipedia entry to remove softcore pornography from it, say like

0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:45.360
<v Speaker 2>the words softcore pornography, and he got called out for that.

0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:49.000
<v Speaker 3>And they're like, dude, that's how that was our foundation

0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:49.480
<v Speaker 3>at first.

0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:52.480
<v Speaker 2>So but that's a really good example of what's starting

0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:54.680
<v Speaker 2>to happen at this time around two thousand and one

0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:57.800
<v Speaker 2>with Wikipedia. It's brand new, but people are starting to

0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:00.359
<v Speaker 2>kind of come to it, figure it out out, get

0:20:00.400 --> 0:20:02.840
<v Speaker 2>the hang of it, and become like enthralled by it

0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:06.600
<v Speaker 2>and starting to like write articles, edit articles, discuss how

0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:10.159
<v Speaker 2>to how to best make an edit. Like it's starting

0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:13.280
<v Speaker 2>to kind of grow. But it took a truly horrible

0:20:13.320 --> 0:20:17.199
<v Speaker 2>event for Wikipedia to truly come into its own for

0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:20.120
<v Speaker 2>the very first time. And I say, we take a break, Chuck.

0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:29.000
<v Speaker 3>That's quite a cliffhanger to stop. You should.

0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:50.600
<v Speaker 1>All right, So you were hanging on a cliff here.

0:20:50.800 --> 0:20:54.520
<v Speaker 1>You talked about a terrible event. You probably don't have

0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:56.199
<v Speaker 1>to be a rocket scientist to figure out what that

0:20:56.240 --> 0:21:01.080
<v Speaker 1>event was. Considering Wikipedia really got cranking in January of

0:21:01.119 --> 0:21:04.080
<v Speaker 1>two thousand and one, kind of sped along for about

0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:08.360
<v Speaker 1>nine months, growing pretty quickly compared to initially. I think

0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:12.800
<v Speaker 1>there were about ten thousand articles written over that period.

0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:17.480
<v Speaker 1>And then nine to eleven happened, and that changed everything

0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:21.320
<v Speaker 1>because news sites crashed. Everyone was trying to get information

0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:25.880
<v Speaker 1>and they were going to these you know, super heavily

0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:32.920
<v Speaker 1>ad filled websites, websites with videos, pop up ads, all

0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:36.040
<v Speaker 1>kinds of things that like slow traffic down and overload things,

0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:38.119
<v Speaker 1>and all these people were trying to go to these

0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:42.000
<v Speaker 1>sites to find out news and information. Wikipedia is there

0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:46.080
<v Speaker 1>with its lo fi, no ads, no pop ups, no

0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:49.359
<v Speaker 1>video kind of layout, and it didn't crash. And so

0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:53.719
<v Speaker 1>the September eleventh, two thousand and one terrorist attack article

0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:56.679
<v Speaker 1>on Wikipedia grew at a speed that I don't know

0:21:56.720 --> 0:21:58.640
<v Speaker 1>any web page has ever grown before.

0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:01.840
<v Speaker 2>No, and that was that it's like Wikipedia. The idea

0:22:01.920 --> 0:22:04.960
<v Speaker 2>finally took off on September eleventh and the days after

0:22:05.240 --> 0:22:09.520
<v Speaker 2>because people were searching for information on it, like every second,

0:22:09.560 --> 0:22:11.840
<v Speaker 2>they were just looking for more and more info. Stuff

0:22:11.920 --> 0:22:14.240
<v Speaker 2>was news was coming out hard and fast like that,

0:22:14.320 --> 0:22:17.600
<v Speaker 2>and with the news sites down, that Wikipedia article became

0:22:17.720 --> 0:22:21.120
<v Speaker 2>like the de facto source of information, and so as

0:22:21.160 --> 0:22:23.040
<v Speaker 2>more people came to it and were like what is

0:22:23.119 --> 0:22:25.919
<v Speaker 2>this and then kind of figured out right there on

0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:28.879
<v Speaker 2>the fly how Wikipedia worked. They actually stuck around and

0:22:28.920 --> 0:22:33.080
<v Speaker 2>started adding to the article, editing the article, discussing like

0:22:33.359 --> 0:22:37.080
<v Speaker 2>the wording for the article, and that single article on

0:22:37.160 --> 0:22:40.639
<v Speaker 2>the September eleventh, two thousand and one terrorist attack that

0:22:41.240 --> 0:22:47.080
<v Speaker 2>became the cornerstone of how Wikipedia developed. That article did

0:22:47.080 --> 0:22:49.520
<v Speaker 2>in all of the discussions, and still today they archived

0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:52.160
<v Speaker 2>all the discussions all the way back to the first day,

0:22:52.640 --> 0:22:55.440
<v Speaker 2>and it is really interesting to see like the arguments

0:22:55.480 --> 0:22:59.080
<v Speaker 2>and discussions that people got into over that because it

0:22:59.119 --> 0:23:01.920
<v Speaker 2>was at the time and then in the years following,

0:23:01.960 --> 0:23:05.280
<v Speaker 2>it's just always been such a controversial topic and such

0:23:05.280 --> 0:23:07.720
<v Speaker 2>a sacred topic too here in the United States.

0:23:08.640 --> 0:23:11.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and not only just the topic, but kind of

0:23:11.200 --> 0:23:14.480
<v Speaker 1>everything that they were, all the subtopics, and that was

0:23:14.520 --> 0:23:19.199
<v Speaker 1>where Wikipedia really came to find what it was and

0:23:19.240 --> 0:23:22.200
<v Speaker 1>what it wasn't because they were doing things like truly

0:23:22.240 --> 0:23:25.119
<v Speaker 1>helpful things at the time, like a list of victims,

0:23:27.440 --> 0:23:30.280
<v Speaker 1>blood drives and links to where you could go to

0:23:30.359 --> 0:23:33.320
<v Speaker 1>help and donate and things like that. But as that

0:23:33.440 --> 0:23:35.760
<v Speaker 1>was happening, like you said, it was sort of happening

0:23:35.760 --> 0:23:39.720
<v Speaker 1>in real time, and their talk page was flooded with

0:23:39.760 --> 0:23:42.600
<v Speaker 1>people saying, well, wait a minute, I'm not sure beyond

0:23:42.640 --> 0:23:46.439
<v Speaker 1>just like editing, you know, the news and facts. They

0:23:46.480 --> 0:23:48.760
<v Speaker 1>were like, well, what are we doing here? We need

0:23:48.800 --> 0:23:51.440
<v Speaker 1>to be truthful and accurate, of course, but do we

0:23:51.680 --> 0:23:54.280
<v Speaker 1>have stuff like is this an encyclopedia or not? Like

0:23:54.640 --> 0:23:57.960
<v Speaker 1>do we have a list of victims of you know,

0:23:57.960 --> 0:23:59.520
<v Speaker 1>I hate to say it, but like people who aren't

0:23:59.520 --> 0:24:03.960
<v Speaker 1>well known, because an encyclopedia probably wouldn't. Would we have

0:24:04.359 --> 0:24:08.120
<v Speaker 1>links to blood drives? Probably not, because an encyclopedia wouldn't.

0:24:08.560 --> 0:24:12.080
<v Speaker 1>So as they went through those really pretty tough discussions,

0:24:13.119 --> 0:24:15.560
<v Speaker 1>what Wikipedia wasn't became pretty clear.

0:24:15.880 --> 0:24:18.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it became what's known as the five pillars, which

0:24:18.480 --> 0:24:20.840
<v Speaker 2>we'll talk about in a second. But one of the

0:24:20.840 --> 0:24:24.120
<v Speaker 2>things that emerged from it too was they weren't there

0:24:24.160 --> 0:24:27.000
<v Speaker 2>to report the news. So anybody who had breaking news,

0:24:27.320 --> 0:24:29.719
<v Speaker 2>it became clear Wikipedia was not a place for that.

0:24:30.040 --> 0:24:33.200
<v Speaker 2>They were meant to be behind the curve. They report

0:24:33.480 --> 0:24:37.960
<v Speaker 2>on reliable sources reporting. That's what the entries were built on,

0:24:38.040 --> 0:24:43.040
<v Speaker 2>and that was a huge, huge foundation that was kind

0:24:43.040 --> 0:24:46.520
<v Speaker 2>of laid that day, I guess. But just as one

0:24:46.600 --> 0:24:52.480
<v Speaker 2>little aside at this time, shortly After this, Wikipedia attracted

0:24:52.560 --> 0:24:55.280
<v Speaker 2>a lot of people. People started sticking around and writing

0:24:55.359 --> 0:24:57.680
<v Speaker 2>other articles that were related to the two thousand and

0:24:57.720 --> 0:25:01.600
<v Speaker 2>one September eleventh attacks, and it just started to grow.

0:25:02.480 --> 0:25:06.040
<v Speaker 2>At the same time, it also attracted trolls essentially out

0:25:06.080 --> 0:25:09.119
<v Speaker 2>of the gate, and there were trolls on the site.

0:25:09.160 --> 0:25:12.840
<v Speaker 2>And Larry Sanger did not have the stomach for that

0:25:13.080 --> 0:25:15.080
<v Speaker 2>at all. And I don't blame him. Trolls sucked. They're

0:25:15.080 --> 0:25:18.920
<v Speaker 2>the worst. But he quit because he said, we need

0:25:18.960 --> 0:25:20.960
<v Speaker 2>to have some sort of structure here. We need to

0:25:20.960 --> 0:25:25.280
<v Speaker 2>have a constitution, We need a way to vet these

0:25:25.400 --> 0:25:28.160
<v Speaker 2>these claims and these facts that are in these articles.

0:25:28.240 --> 0:25:30.679
<v Speaker 2>We got to slow this down, man. And Jimmy Wales

0:25:30.760 --> 0:25:32.439
<v Speaker 2>is like, no, that's we're not going to do that.

0:25:32.720 --> 0:25:35.640
<v Speaker 2>We've met in ein ran chat forums, for God's sake,

0:25:35.680 --> 0:25:37.800
<v Speaker 2>We're not gonna We're not gonna do this. We're going

0:25:37.880 --> 0:25:40.840
<v Speaker 2>to go the opposite direction. We'll figure it out as

0:25:41.200 --> 0:25:44.000
<v Speaker 2>as we go. And so Larry Sanger quit and became

0:25:44.040 --> 0:25:47.200
<v Speaker 2>one of the biggest critics of Wikipedia. He was only

0:25:47.200 --> 0:25:48.960
<v Speaker 2>there for I think fourteen months.

0:25:49.440 --> 0:25:53.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Weiss called them their most outspoken critic In two

0:25:53.520 --> 0:25:56.359
<v Speaker 1>thousand and seven, he said the site was broken beyond repair.

0:25:57.960 --> 0:26:00.720
<v Speaker 1>He has said that there's a large and this is

0:26:00.800 --> 0:26:02.800
<v Speaker 1>just a few of the criticisms. Of course, there's very

0:26:02.880 --> 0:26:05.920
<v Speaker 1>very many. You might want to say he has a

0:26:05.960 --> 0:26:07.960
<v Speaker 1>bone to pick with Wikipedia, but I also feel like

0:26:08.000 --> 0:26:11.080
<v Speaker 1>he truly believes his stuff. Sure, he said that it

0:26:11.119 --> 0:26:15.200
<v Speaker 1>has a massive left wing bias and has used examples

0:26:15.280 --> 0:26:22.720
<v Speaker 1>on everything from LGTBQ websites to Donald Trump versus Barack

0:26:22.720 --> 0:26:27.360
<v Speaker 1>Obama's I keep saying websites, I should call them Wikipedia

0:26:27.440 --> 0:26:33.560
<v Speaker 1>articles rather Oh yeah, okay, Donald Trump's page versus Barack

0:26:33.560 --> 0:26:38.320
<v Speaker 1>Obama's page, all kinds of stuff, basically saying that, hey,

0:26:38.640 --> 0:26:40.520
<v Speaker 1>we're only getting one point of view here. We're not

0:26:40.560 --> 0:26:42.920
<v Speaker 1>getting the right wing side of things, We're not getting

0:26:42.920 --> 0:26:47.120
<v Speaker 1>the libertarian viewpoint on things. So he's had a bone

0:26:47.119 --> 0:26:50.720
<v Speaker 1>to pick with Wikipedia, although I think he has softened

0:26:50.720 --> 0:26:54.520
<v Speaker 1>it here and there saying that I think he said

0:26:54.560 --> 0:26:57.520
<v Speaker 1>that the bias is probably the least of their problems.

0:26:58.560 --> 0:26:59.920
<v Speaker 1>So that's not like really where he's.

0:26:59.800 --> 0:27:01.520
<v Speaker 3>Hand has had. I don't want to make it seem

0:27:01.560 --> 0:27:01.840
<v Speaker 3>like that.

0:27:01.880 --> 0:27:05.840
<v Speaker 2>Well, what's interesting is his criticism seem to have worked

0:27:05.880 --> 0:27:09.640
<v Speaker 2>themselves out because one of the things that Wikipedia strives

0:27:09.680 --> 0:27:15.119
<v Speaker 2>for is neutrality is close to neutrality and objective, I don't.

0:27:15.160 --> 0:27:17.280
<v Speaker 2>I keep wanting to use the word reporting, but that's wrong.

0:27:17.359 --> 0:27:22.960
<v Speaker 2>Reporting makes it documenting. It's neutral, objective, documentation of knowledge.

0:27:23.000 --> 0:27:26.080
<v Speaker 2>That's what it's after, right. And So I was looking

0:27:26.080 --> 0:27:28.359
<v Speaker 2>at banned users and a lot of them seem to

0:27:28.400 --> 0:27:31.280
<v Speaker 2>be like social justice warriors who are like righting wrongs

0:27:31.680 --> 0:27:34.600
<v Speaker 2>and they get banned for life. So I mean, I

0:27:34.680 --> 0:27:38.440
<v Speaker 2>don't think that it necessarily has a political bias one

0:27:38.520 --> 0:27:41.879
<v Speaker 2>way or the other, if anything. Politically, from what I

0:27:41.920 --> 0:27:45.000
<v Speaker 2>can tell, it's that's where it's closest to neutral. Of

0:27:45.040 --> 0:27:51.560
<v Speaker 2>all gender, ethnicity, that's a different story. But politically it

0:27:51.600 --> 0:27:54.160
<v Speaker 2>does seem to be pretty centrist.

0:27:54.720 --> 0:27:57.199
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, well Sanger doesn't feel like it at least, but

0:27:57.760 --> 0:27:58.680
<v Speaker 3>you know that's his take.

0:27:58.760 --> 0:27:59.920
<v Speaker 2>Well get him on the phone.

0:28:01.280 --> 0:28:03.400
<v Speaker 1>Oh man, what if we took Collers, that'd be great,

0:28:04.280 --> 0:28:07.320
<v Speaker 1>Go ahead, Collar. I've always wanted to say that, Hey,

0:28:08.560 --> 0:28:14.720
<v Speaker 1>long time, first time. So in two thousand and two,

0:28:15.200 --> 0:28:22.560
<v Speaker 1>Wikipedia avoided what would have been a sea change when

0:28:22.680 --> 0:28:26.280
<v Speaker 1>they thought about getting ads on the site and making money,

0:28:26.400 --> 0:28:30.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, the good old fashioned webway, and the people

0:28:30.240 --> 0:28:33.120
<v Speaker 1>of Wikipedia got upset. Users were like no, no, no,

0:28:33.160 --> 0:28:35.199
<v Speaker 1>this is what makes you guys different. You can't do

0:28:35.320 --> 0:28:39.360
<v Speaker 1>that in Spain. There were some Spanish Wikipedians who got

0:28:39.360 --> 0:28:43.520
<v Speaker 1>so upset they created their own well, I guess you

0:28:43.520 --> 0:28:48.840
<v Speaker 1>would say Encyclopedia libra, but it's just spelled differently. They said,

0:28:48.920 --> 0:28:51.360
<v Speaker 1>you know, that scared them off, basically to where they're

0:28:51.400 --> 0:28:54.080
<v Speaker 1>created their own And he said, all right, I'll hear

0:28:54.120 --> 0:28:58.760
<v Speaker 1>you loud and clear. We'll launch the Wikimedia Foundation.

0:28:59.800 --> 0:29:01.160
<v Speaker 3>That was pretty early on.

0:29:01.200 --> 0:29:02.920
<v Speaker 1>It was in two thousand and three, and then they

0:29:02.960 --> 0:29:06.240
<v Speaker 1>change from dot com to dot org. They shut down

0:29:06.280 --> 0:29:10.520
<v Speaker 1>new Pedia that same year and got together and figured

0:29:10.520 --> 0:29:14.560
<v Speaker 1>out these five pillars that you mentioned earlier, one of

0:29:14.600 --> 0:29:16.760
<v Speaker 1>which you just reference, which was neutrality.

0:29:17.200 --> 0:29:21.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So there are five pillars the fundamental principles of Wikipedia,

0:29:22.440 --> 0:29:25.320
<v Speaker 2>and a lot of these were find its roots in

0:29:25.360 --> 0:29:28.760
<v Speaker 2>that September eleventh, two thousand and one page, but they've

0:29:28.800 --> 0:29:32.360
<v Speaker 2>also really been refined and developed over time. And I

0:29:32.400 --> 0:29:35.320
<v Speaker 2>think we should cut to the last one first because

0:29:35.360 --> 0:29:38.880
<v Speaker 2>it really kind of gives a It gives you, like

0:29:38.920 --> 0:29:41.480
<v Speaker 2>the right impression when you hear the rest of the rules.

0:29:42.080 --> 0:29:44.680
<v Speaker 2>And the last one is that Wikipedia has no firm rules.

0:29:45.320 --> 0:29:49.120
<v Speaker 2>There's no one in charge. There's a group of people

0:29:49.160 --> 0:29:53.640
<v Speaker 2>who are volunteer administrators who actually can ban you. They

0:29:53.640 --> 0:29:59.360
<v Speaker 2>actually can delete like entire entries if they feel like

0:29:59.400 --> 0:30:01.880
<v Speaker 2>that's necessary. But those are those people are few and

0:30:01.880 --> 0:30:03.960
<v Speaker 2>far between, and they are meant to like not wield

0:30:03.960 --> 0:30:06.840
<v Speaker 2>their power. Essentially, no one's in charge, No one owns

0:30:06.880 --> 0:30:11.600
<v Speaker 2>an article, and there are different competing philosophies about how

0:30:11.640 --> 0:30:15.800
<v Speaker 2>Wikipedia should be built, how articles should be written, what's truth,

0:30:16.600 --> 0:30:21.280
<v Speaker 2>what's a reliable source? And these competing philosophies battle one

0:30:21.320 --> 0:30:25.080
<v Speaker 2>another or engage in conversation and dialogue with one another

0:30:25.160 --> 0:30:28.760
<v Speaker 2>on the talk page for these amazing like like the

0:30:28.800 --> 0:30:34.360
<v Speaker 2>really well written, well researched articles or entries that people

0:30:34.600 --> 0:30:39.160
<v Speaker 2>really care about. There's really fascinating discussions about, you know,

0:30:39.640 --> 0:30:42.479
<v Speaker 2>just wording, like just what word to use or this

0:30:42.560 --> 0:30:46.600
<v Speaker 2>word doesn't quite fit, or what's a reliable citation? And

0:30:46.680 --> 0:30:50.680
<v Speaker 2>that the reason why it works is because there's it

0:30:50.840 --> 0:30:56.520
<v Speaker 2>will constantly evolve in that in that setup, there's no rigidity.

0:30:56.960 --> 0:31:01.520
<v Speaker 2>It's like whatever philosophy wins out wins out, and that

0:31:01.640 --> 0:31:05.520
<v Speaker 2>one specific disagreement over that one specific edit on that

0:31:05.600 --> 0:31:08.600
<v Speaker 2>one specific entry, and then the next time it may

0:31:08.640 --> 0:31:11.480
<v Speaker 2>have a completely different outcome, but collectively as a whole,

0:31:11.800 --> 0:31:15.440
<v Speaker 2>that leads to that leads to the neutrality that we

0:31:15.560 --> 0:31:16.480
<v Speaker 2>referenced earlier.

0:31:17.280 --> 0:31:21.880
<v Speaker 1>That's right, So that's I guess five and two. Pillar

0:31:22.000 --> 0:31:25.560
<v Speaker 1>Number one is that it's an encyclopedia, which speaks for itself.

0:31:26.560 --> 0:31:30.480
<v Speaker 1>Number three is that it's free. And that well also

0:31:30.680 --> 0:31:32.240
<v Speaker 1>kind of part three because you said that no one

0:31:32.240 --> 0:31:36.680
<v Speaker 1>owns a Wikipedia article. I imagine that can be tough

0:31:36.720 --> 0:31:40.720
<v Speaker 1>at times. If you have, if you're if you have

0:31:40.840 --> 0:31:45.120
<v Speaker 1>created an entry that is very very niche that you

0:31:45.200 --> 0:31:47.280
<v Speaker 1>knew a lot about and you care a lot about,

0:31:47.360 --> 0:31:50.360
<v Speaker 1>I imagine it can it can be very tough to

0:31:50.440 --> 0:31:53.960
<v Speaker 1>sort of hand that over and say, okay, like I

0:31:53.960 --> 0:31:57.680
<v Speaker 1>guess anyone can change this right, so that that must

0:31:57.760 --> 0:31:59.080
<v Speaker 1>be hard, but still a pillar.

0:31:59.760 --> 0:32:01.200
<v Speaker 3>And the number four is.

0:32:01.320 --> 0:32:05.680
<v Speaker 1>Editors should treat each other with respect and civility. I'm

0:32:05.760 --> 0:32:08.760
<v Speaker 1>sure that that well, we know that that is gotten

0:32:08.800 --> 0:32:12.160
<v Speaker 1>out of hand because there's been reports of bullying within

0:32:12.200 --> 0:32:18.000
<v Speaker 1>the what are they called wikipedians. But the pillar at

0:32:18.080 --> 0:32:21.920
<v Speaker 1>least is to avoid these edit wars and work with

0:32:22.080 --> 0:32:25.320
<v Speaker 1>your fellow editors instead of against them, to not bully,

0:32:25.560 --> 0:32:29.640
<v Speaker 1>to have patients with new editors, and things like that

0:32:29.680 --> 0:32:32.760
<v Speaker 1>and try and foster like kind of a different community

0:32:32.800 --> 0:32:34.400
<v Speaker 1>for what usually happens online.

0:32:34.480 --> 0:32:37.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, what's amazing is it generally works. The whole premise

0:32:37.600 --> 0:32:40.360
<v Speaker 2>of that pillar is assume good faith. That it's such

0:32:40.360 --> 0:32:44.720
<v Speaker 2>a it's such an important point that it's abbreviate is AGF,

0:32:45.320 --> 0:32:49.080
<v Speaker 2>and that is that if you see somebody adding some dumb,

0:32:49.440 --> 0:32:53.160
<v Speaker 2>dumb fact that's clearly a conspiracy theory, as if it's

0:32:53.200 --> 0:32:57.280
<v Speaker 2>fact to some article, don't don't take that act as

0:32:57.360 --> 0:33:01.840
<v Speaker 2>a like like they're willfully trying to harm that article

0:33:02.000 --> 0:33:06.080
<v Speaker 2>or hurt Wikipedia or personally insult you. What they're doing

0:33:06.360 --> 0:33:09.400
<v Speaker 2>probably if you assume good faith is in their mind

0:33:09.560 --> 0:33:12.200
<v Speaker 2>they think they're actually helping Wikipedia, they're helping the site,

0:33:12.200 --> 0:33:16.640
<v Speaker 2>they're making this entry more legit, even though they're totally

0:33:16.640 --> 0:33:18.720
<v Speaker 2>completely wrong. So if you come at it from that

0:33:18.800 --> 0:33:22.200
<v Speaker 2>premise where you assume good faith, then that's where it's

0:33:22.200 --> 0:33:25.880
<v Speaker 2>going to. That's where it's least likely to devolve into

0:33:26.480 --> 0:33:29.640
<v Speaker 2>an argument or name calling or threats or wiki bullying.

0:33:30.240 --> 0:33:33.560
<v Speaker 2>And that seems to be like the the case or

0:33:33.600 --> 0:33:38.960
<v Speaker 2>the place that the editors that I saw will go from.

0:33:39.000 --> 0:33:41.640
<v Speaker 2>Like that whole assuming good faith first part a lot

0:33:41.680 --> 0:33:43.720
<v Speaker 2>of them, do not all of them obviously, because it's

0:33:43.720 --> 0:33:46.000
<v Speaker 2>the Internet for sure.

0:33:46.480 --> 0:33:49.080
<v Speaker 1>All Right, I say we take another break and come

0:33:49.120 --> 0:33:53.240
<v Speaker 1>back with blocks and bands and whether or not Wikipedia

0:33:53.280 --> 0:33:54.160
<v Speaker 1>is truly reliable?

0:33:54.320 --> 0:33:54.920
<v Speaker 3>Is that sound good?

0:33:55.480 --> 0:34:04.720
<v Speaker 2>That sounds great, Chuck? All right, Still you should know

0:34:24.680 --> 0:34:27.960
<v Speaker 2>so even though you assume good faith that you're supposed

0:34:27.960 --> 0:34:30.320
<v Speaker 2>to assume good faith, like we said, it can become

0:34:30.320 --> 0:34:35.040
<v Speaker 2>clear that somebody's like willfully being a jerk. There's a

0:34:35.080 --> 0:34:41.480
<v Speaker 2>whole thing called vandalism, where you are purposefully like inserting

0:34:41.560 --> 0:34:47.120
<v Speaker 2>incorrect stuff into an article just to mess with people, right,

0:34:47.840 --> 0:34:50.680
<v Speaker 2>just to mess with the article. It can be hilarious.

0:34:51.200 --> 0:34:54.880
<v Speaker 2>Spamming is another one, where you promote yourself or your product,

0:34:54.880 --> 0:34:58.120
<v Speaker 2>which is just you should just know that you don't

0:34:58.160 --> 0:34:59.359
<v Speaker 2>do that, but people do that.

0:34:59.440 --> 0:35:04.120
<v Speaker 1>What else, well, obviously we've talked about the bullying and harassment,

0:35:05.520 --> 0:35:09.680
<v Speaker 1>the three revert rule, which is basically you don't revert

0:35:09.760 --> 0:35:14.000
<v Speaker 1>or change or undo three edits on the same page

0:35:14.000 --> 0:35:16.600
<v Speaker 1>within twenty four hours, which is kind of like a

0:35:16.640 --> 0:35:21.400
<v Speaker 1>slow year role move a little bit. Copyright violations pretty

0:35:21.440 --> 0:35:27.680
<v Speaker 1>self explanatory. Using multiple Wikipedia accounts, which they call sock puppetry.

0:35:28.080 --> 0:35:33.360
<v Speaker 1>It's very cute and anything. Just that's against the idea

0:35:33.360 --> 0:35:34.959
<v Speaker 1>of what they're trying to do, which is to build

0:35:35.000 --> 0:35:39.759
<v Speaker 1>out this encyclopedia and all of this is this is

0:35:39.760 --> 0:35:44.759
<v Speaker 1>not decided upon by just your average user or Wikipedia Wikipedia,

0:35:44.800 --> 0:35:49.680
<v Speaker 1>and rather but the volunteer administrators. I think the English

0:35:50.400 --> 0:35:55.520
<v Speaker 1>Wikipedia has more than eight hundred administrators, and they are Wikipedians.

0:35:55.520 --> 0:35:58.719
<v Speaker 1>They're just really experienced ones who know the ins and

0:35:58.760 --> 0:36:01.200
<v Speaker 1>outs and take it really seriously. They do not work

0:36:01.239 --> 0:36:04.279
<v Speaker 1>for the Wikimedia Foundation and get a cut of that

0:36:04.280 --> 0:36:07.640
<v Speaker 1>one hundred and sixty million bucks a year, right, but

0:36:07.680 --> 0:36:10.440
<v Speaker 1>they're the ones in charge of determining when a block

0:36:10.560 --> 0:36:11.640
<v Speaker 1>or a ban can happen.

0:36:12.600 --> 0:36:13.640
<v Speaker 3>Blocks being.

0:36:15.160 --> 0:36:19.560
<v Speaker 1>Temporary, they can be longer duration wise, it can be shorter,

0:36:20.040 --> 0:36:22.080
<v Speaker 1>can be a one specific thing you did in an

0:36:22.160 --> 0:36:26.799
<v Speaker 1>article or the whole article that you're blocked from for

0:36:26.840 --> 0:36:30.359
<v Speaker 1>a little while. You can appeal those, but it's meant

0:36:30.400 --> 0:36:33.719
<v Speaker 1>to be a preventative measure and not a punitive. And

0:36:33.760 --> 0:36:37.280
<v Speaker 1>then you have the ban, which kind of speaks for itself.

0:36:38.000 --> 0:36:40.080
<v Speaker 1>It's usually a site band, which means you just you

0:36:40.120 --> 0:36:41.560
<v Speaker 1>can't come on here anymore.

0:36:41.680 --> 0:36:43.239
<v Speaker 2>You know, you can go on, but you can't make

0:36:43.280 --> 0:36:45.120
<v Speaker 2>a single edit. All you can do is sit there

0:36:45.120 --> 0:36:46.080
<v Speaker 2>and read pal.

0:36:46.200 --> 0:36:48.719
<v Speaker 1>Oh well yeah, I mean we're talking about editing, not

0:36:48.760 --> 0:36:49.920
<v Speaker 1>like anyone can read anything.

0:36:49.960 --> 0:36:52.920
<v Speaker 2>Sure, sure, right, And also anybody can edit unless you've

0:36:52.920 --> 0:36:55.040
<v Speaker 2>been blocked or banned, and you don't even have to

0:36:55.040 --> 0:36:57.000
<v Speaker 2>create an account, which is one of the cool things.

0:36:57.400 --> 0:37:00.200
<v Speaker 2>But there's entire site bands, so like you can be

0:37:00.280 --> 0:37:05.400
<v Speaker 2>completely banned from English Wikipedia, or you could be globally banned,

0:37:05.760 --> 0:37:09.279
<v Speaker 2>so any Wikipedia in any language. And I believe some

0:37:09.320 --> 0:37:13.640
<v Speaker 2>of the other Wiki projects like wictionary, like you just

0:37:13.840 --> 0:37:15.759
<v Speaker 2>you'll be you can't do anything on those.

0:37:16.560 --> 0:37:19.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So that kind of brings us to where we

0:37:19.200 --> 0:37:21.560
<v Speaker 1>started with this whole thing and why we didn't use it.

0:37:22.719 --> 0:37:25.439
<v Speaker 1>Why we don't use it and started out at least

0:37:25.440 --> 0:37:29.520
<v Speaker 1>and still don't. Is that is it? Is it reputable?

0:37:29.600 --> 0:37:34.000
<v Speaker 1>Is it truthful? Is it accurate? You usually can't use

0:37:34.040 --> 0:37:38.279
<v Speaker 1>Wikipedia as a source for a school paper, certainly not

0:37:38.360 --> 0:37:42.560
<v Speaker 1>a college paper. We make up our own rules, as

0:37:42.840 --> 0:37:44.560
<v Speaker 1>Josh and Chuck do stuff, you should know, so we

0:37:44.560 --> 0:37:46.719
<v Speaker 1>could do whatever we wanted. Sure, that was just something

0:37:46.760 --> 0:37:49.080
<v Speaker 1>that we did from the beginning. Like, no one, I

0:37:49.120 --> 0:37:50.839
<v Speaker 1>don't think anyone told us to do that, did they?

0:37:51.000 --> 0:37:53.480
<v Speaker 2>No? Apparently it was just my idea because I'm a

0:37:53.480 --> 0:37:54.359
<v Speaker 2>big snob.

0:37:54.120 --> 0:37:57.520
<v Speaker 3>Right, No, not at all. We were both on board.

0:37:59.120 --> 0:38:01.319
<v Speaker 1>There was a study into two thousand and five and

0:38:01.360 --> 0:38:03.799
<v Speaker 1>there's I tried to find something more recent, but they

0:38:03.840 --> 0:38:08.080
<v Speaker 1>compared forty two entries on Wikipedia to the same thing

0:38:08.239 --> 0:38:12.760
<v Speaker 1>in the Encyclopedia Britannica and found that the average mistakes

0:38:12.800 --> 0:38:17.600
<v Speaker 1>per article was four for Wikipedia, three for the Britannica,

0:38:17.640 --> 0:38:20.960
<v Speaker 1>which is a little bit startling. Yeah, the differences between

0:38:21.000 --> 0:38:23.600
<v Speaker 1>Wikipedia and Britannica is that you can change something really

0:38:23.640 --> 0:38:27.319
<v Speaker 1>fast on Wikipedia and Encyclopedia Britannica, at least for the

0:38:27.320 --> 0:38:30.120
<v Speaker 1>hard copy volumes. You know, obviously he's going to have

0:38:30.120 --> 0:38:33.000
<v Speaker 1>to wait till the next publish. And they've tested out

0:38:33.040 --> 0:38:37.560
<v Speaker 1>the speed of Wikipedia changes or I guess corrections, and

0:38:37.600 --> 0:38:42.600
<v Speaker 1>they filed false information in thirty three different articles about

0:38:42.680 --> 0:38:45.360
<v Speaker 1>dead philosophers, and in forty eight hours, a third of

0:38:45.400 --> 0:38:49.480
<v Speaker 1>those had been fixed, and three of those within sixty seconds.

0:38:49.840 --> 0:38:52.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I looked those up and some of them are hilarious.

0:38:52.520 --> 0:38:55.120
<v Speaker 2>They all seem rather innocuous, but if you stop and

0:38:55.160 --> 0:38:58.160
<v Speaker 2>think about what they're saying, they're pretty funny. Like Wickenstein

0:38:58.760 --> 0:39:02.440
<v Speaker 2>was fined for poisoning squirrels in his yard, or Spinoza

0:39:02.520 --> 0:39:06.360
<v Speaker 2>supported himself by selling stolen jewelry, or that David Hume

0:39:06.440 --> 0:39:10.600
<v Speaker 2>used to wrestle with local sportsmen, like we just but

0:39:10.920 --> 0:39:13.560
<v Speaker 2>just completely like the way that the sentences were written,

0:39:13.560 --> 0:39:16.400
<v Speaker 2>like you would totally buy them and they still got corrected.

0:39:16.680 --> 0:39:19.200
<v Speaker 2>And that's kind of like the whole premise of Wikipedia

0:39:19.239 --> 0:39:22.440
<v Speaker 2>is like eventually somebody's going to find that and they're

0:39:22.480 --> 0:39:24.799
<v Speaker 2>going to correct it. Might be in a minute, it

0:39:24.880 --> 0:39:26.480
<v Speaker 2>might be in forty eight hours, it might be in

0:39:26.520 --> 0:39:29.239
<v Speaker 2>six weeks, but eventually it's going to get created, like

0:39:29.239 --> 0:39:33.279
<v Speaker 2>you'll eventually get to the truth or correctness.

0:39:33.320 --> 0:39:36.440
<v Speaker 1>I guess, yeah, And Dave points out and this is

0:39:36.480 --> 0:39:39.719
<v Speaker 1>really really the truth of the matter is something as

0:39:40.920 --> 0:39:44.640
<v Speaker 1>as large as Wikipedia created by users. There's going to

0:39:44.680 --> 0:39:47.120
<v Speaker 1>be some great articles. There's going to be some good ones,

0:39:47.480 --> 0:39:49.120
<v Speaker 1>and there's going to be some not so great ones.

0:39:49.800 --> 0:39:54.040
<v Speaker 1>Just how it shakes out, and so are they're actually

0:39:54.120 --> 0:39:56.360
<v Speaker 1>labeled now, which is something that a lot of people

0:39:56.400 --> 0:39:59.600
<v Speaker 1>may not really realize, but they can be labeled good

0:39:59.680 --> 0:40:02.239
<v Speaker 1>or fee. If it's good, that means it's got a

0:40:02.239 --> 0:40:05.319
<v Speaker 1>little small plus sign inside a green circle. They're close

0:40:05.360 --> 0:40:08.759
<v Speaker 1>to forty thousand good articles on the English version. If

0:40:08.760 --> 0:40:11.399
<v Speaker 1>it's featured, that means it's the cream of the crop

0:40:11.520 --> 0:40:15.600
<v Speaker 1>as far as Wikipedia vetting goes. And there are close

0:40:15.680 --> 0:40:18.960
<v Speaker 1>to sixty five hundred that are featured with that bronze star.

0:40:19.840 --> 0:40:22.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I saw the Museum of Bad Art as a

0:40:22.880 --> 0:40:27.440
<v Speaker 2>featured article. There's a but there's just tons of them, thousands, right,

0:40:27.440 --> 0:40:28.960
<v Speaker 2>And you can just go look at the list and

0:40:29.000 --> 0:40:30.680
<v Speaker 2>be like, oh, Okay, this is a really good article.

0:40:30.680 --> 0:40:34.120
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to read this one. Despite all that, I

0:40:34.160 --> 0:40:37.360
<v Speaker 2>think the featured articles represent one out of every thousand

0:40:37.400 --> 0:40:40.319
<v Speaker 2>and fifty articles on the site. It's a very low percentage.

0:40:41.440 --> 0:40:45.640
<v Speaker 2>And because of that, Wikipedia even says Wikipedia is not

0:40:45.719 --> 0:40:49.960
<v Speaker 2>a reliable source. They say it it's expressed on their website.

0:40:50.640 --> 0:40:53.799
<v Speaker 2>And you can't actually use a Wikipedia entry as a

0:40:53.840 --> 0:40:57.640
<v Speaker 2>citation on another Wikipedia entry. You link to other stuff,

0:40:57.680 --> 0:40:59.759
<v Speaker 2>you can hyperlink it, but you can't use that to

0:41:00.600 --> 0:41:04.759
<v Speaker 2>or support that sentence or that fact or whatever. And

0:41:04.880 --> 0:41:07.120
<v Speaker 2>there's the reason why. One of the reasons why. It

0:41:07.320 --> 0:41:12.080
<v Speaker 2>was kind of perfectly captured by that amazing comic XKCD,

0:41:12.840 --> 0:41:17.080
<v Speaker 2>and they coined the term cytogenesis, where somebody can put

0:41:17.080 --> 0:41:20.560
<v Speaker 2>in a fake fact on a Wikipedia page and then

0:41:20.600 --> 0:41:23.120
<v Speaker 2>go to that Wikipedia page to prove that their fact

0:41:23.840 --> 0:41:26.919
<v Speaker 2>is correct. Right, So it's like this snake that eats

0:41:26.960 --> 0:41:32.160
<v Speaker 2>its tail. And there's actually an example of that. There's

0:41:32.200 --> 0:41:35.399
<v Speaker 2>an Australian duo called Peaking Duck and one of their

0:41:35.400 --> 0:41:39.000
<v Speaker 2>fans got backstage because he inserted his name as a

0:41:39.040 --> 0:41:41.839
<v Speaker 2>relative of one of the band members and showed it

0:41:41.880 --> 0:41:45.000
<v Speaker 2>to like the guy who was guarding the backstage and

0:41:45.160 --> 0:41:48.280
<v Speaker 2>ended up getting backstage because of it. Isn't that amazing?

0:41:49.760 --> 0:41:50.600
<v Speaker 3>Pretty amazing?

0:41:50.719 --> 0:41:53.799
<v Speaker 2>I love that story, And apparently Peaking Duck they said

0:41:53.840 --> 0:41:57.640
<v Speaker 2>it was a genius mastermind move, so I guess they

0:41:57.680 --> 0:41:58.680
<v Speaker 2>appreciated it too.

0:41:59.719 --> 0:42:02.600
<v Speaker 3>So so, you know, we mentioned a bias earlier.

0:42:04.000 --> 0:42:06.719
<v Speaker 1>With politics, but the real bias comes in, like you

0:42:06.760 --> 0:42:10.719
<v Speaker 1>mentioned at the beginning with kind of who is who

0:42:10.760 --> 0:42:15.440
<v Speaker 1>these wikipedians are, eighty seven percent of these editors are

0:42:15.800 --> 0:42:17.840
<v Speaker 1>men and eighty nine percent are white.

0:42:18.680 --> 0:42:21.439
<v Speaker 2>That means one hundred and seventy six percent are white men.

0:42:23.040 --> 0:42:26.200
<v Speaker 1>Half of them are in Europe and twenty percent live

0:42:26.239 --> 0:42:29.640
<v Speaker 1>in North America. So unsurprisingly you're going to have some

0:42:30.400 --> 0:42:33.560
<v Speaker 1>gender bias playing out. I think less than nineteen percent

0:42:34.120 --> 0:42:37.640
<v Speaker 1>of the English language biographies are about women, and those

0:42:37.640 --> 0:42:40.960
<v Speaker 1>are also the articles that are most often flagged for

0:42:41.040 --> 0:42:45.279
<v Speaker 1>deletion as being you know, not notable enough. And they've

0:42:45.280 --> 0:42:48.440
<v Speaker 1>combatd this over the years in different ways. They get

0:42:48.480 --> 0:42:52.000
<v Speaker 1>together sometimes and organize edit athons where they try and

0:42:52.040 --> 0:42:58.360
<v Speaker 1>boost content about women and minorities, people of color, ethnic diversity,

0:42:58.520 --> 0:43:00.160
<v Speaker 1>like anything like that. They could have an edit to

0:43:00.239 --> 0:43:05.839
<v Speaker 1>though about to try and you know, bring more, bring

0:43:05.880 --> 0:43:07.360
<v Speaker 1>more of a light onto those groups.

0:43:07.719 --> 0:43:09.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and we have to say, there's so that whole

0:43:09.719 --> 0:43:12.880
<v Speaker 2>idea that premise that Wikipedia is unreliable. It seems to

0:43:12.960 --> 0:43:17.080
<v Speaker 2>basically find a single source. Initially, there's a journalist named

0:43:17.120 --> 0:43:21.879
<v Speaker 2>John Seigenthaler who had a joke Entry made about him.

0:43:21.920 --> 0:43:24.319
<v Speaker 2>He was an advisor, i think to Bobby Kennedy, and

0:43:24.400 --> 0:43:27.680
<v Speaker 2>the Hoaxter wrote that he was a suspect in the

0:43:27.719 --> 0:43:32.040
<v Speaker 2>assassination of Bobby Kennedy and John Kennedy and John Siegenthaler

0:43:32.080 --> 0:43:33.960
<v Speaker 2>heard about this, and he did not find that funny

0:43:34.000 --> 0:43:36.080
<v Speaker 2>at all. He just happened to be one of the

0:43:36.239 --> 0:43:38.920
<v Speaker 2>founding editors of USA Today. So he took to the

0:43:39.000 --> 0:43:43.200
<v Speaker 2>pages of USA Today and completely excoriated Wikipedia, called it

0:43:43.239 --> 0:43:47.920
<v Speaker 2>out as a completely unreliable irresponsible research tool, right. That

0:43:48.040 --> 0:43:50.680
<v Speaker 2>was two thousand and five, and that really kind of

0:43:50.719 --> 0:43:54.440
<v Speaker 2>laid the foundation for Wikipedia's bad reputation for a while.

0:43:54.680 --> 0:43:57.799
<v Speaker 2>But if you go on to the Wikipedia entry about Wikipedia,

0:43:57.840 --> 0:44:01.280
<v Speaker 2>which I admit I read some of, they even say

0:44:01.560 --> 0:44:05.400
<v Speaker 2>around starting sometime in about the twenty tens, that reputation

0:44:05.480 --> 0:44:08.239
<v Speaker 2>started to get shed and we're finally reaching the point

0:44:08.239 --> 0:44:11.560
<v Speaker 2>today where people are saying, go use Wikipedia, just use

0:44:11.600 --> 0:44:15.239
<v Speaker 2>it as like a an introduction to your topic, and

0:44:15.239 --> 0:44:18.359
<v Speaker 2>then go out and do further research. So it's really

0:44:18.440 --> 0:44:20.360
<v Speaker 2>kind of come into its own twenty years on.

0:44:21.440 --> 0:44:21.919
<v Speaker 3>That's right.

0:44:22.160 --> 0:44:24.640
<v Speaker 1>If you want to get into editing, there are tutorials.

0:44:24.640 --> 0:44:28.880
<v Speaker 1>There's an introduction tutorial of how to do everything from

0:44:29.040 --> 0:44:32.440
<v Speaker 1>creating things from scratch to editing. I mean, good luck

0:44:32.480 --> 0:44:35.680
<v Speaker 1>creating something from scratch and finding something that doesn't exist

0:44:35.760 --> 0:44:39.240
<v Speaker 1>already at this point. And if you want a gamified version,

0:44:39.280 --> 0:44:42.600
<v Speaker 1>you can check out the Wikipedia Adventure to help with

0:44:42.640 --> 0:44:45.799
<v Speaker 1>your tutorial, and they also have a help desk and

0:44:45.920 --> 0:44:49.040
<v Speaker 1>the Tea House, which is where new editors can learn

0:44:49.080 --> 0:44:50.280
<v Speaker 1>the ropes in a friendly manner.

0:44:50.360 --> 0:44:52.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I think just going on the talk page

0:44:52.480 --> 0:44:55.640
<v Speaker 2>of any article will kind of familiarize you with what

0:44:55.680 --> 0:44:57.400
<v Speaker 2>you should be doing. If you want to contribue, but

0:44:57.440 --> 0:45:02.279
<v Speaker 2>do contribute. It's nice, I said, it's nice. I don't

0:45:02.280 --> 0:45:04.400
<v Speaker 2>think Chuck has anything else because he didn't respond, So

0:45:04.440 --> 0:45:06.279
<v Speaker 2>I think that means it's time for a listener mail.

0:45:08.680 --> 0:45:11.680
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to call this bonsai inspiration.

0:45:12.040 --> 0:45:12.759
<v Speaker 3>It was very cool.

0:45:13.400 --> 0:45:15.520
<v Speaker 1>Hey guys, a few years ago you did the bon

0:45:15.600 --> 0:45:18.160
<v Speaker 1>Si episode. My dad and I listened to it became

0:45:18.280 --> 0:45:22.160
<v Speaker 1>very inspired. I have a horticultural degree from USU.

0:45:22.600 --> 0:45:23.080
<v Speaker 3>That's Utah.

0:45:23.160 --> 0:45:25.480
<v Speaker 1>By the way, he thought it might be interested too,

0:45:25.520 --> 0:45:27.680
<v Speaker 1>so as father and son, we began working on trees.

0:45:28.280 --> 0:45:32.399
<v Speaker 1>Fast forward to today, we have thirty different trees. We've

0:45:32.400 --> 0:45:34.120
<v Speaker 1>lost a few along the way, but have learned so

0:45:34.239 --> 0:45:37.640
<v Speaker 1>much through a Bonsi show. In twenty seventeen, we became

0:45:37.680 --> 0:45:40.799
<v Speaker 1>members of the Utah bon Si Club and have both

0:45:41.000 --> 0:45:44.879
<v Speaker 1>entered bon Sai into a show hosted bly hosted by

0:45:45.080 --> 0:45:48.640
<v Speaker 1>Red Butte Gardens. Who would have thought that a simple

0:45:48.680 --> 0:45:50.719
<v Speaker 1>podcast could have inspired my dad and I to do

0:45:50.800 --> 0:45:53.359
<v Speaker 1>this and go this far with it. I would love

0:45:53.400 --> 0:45:55.840
<v Speaker 1>to give my dad a shout out. He turned sixty

0:45:55.880 --> 0:45:58.680
<v Speaker 1>this year. Proud of him and what we've accomplished. That

0:45:58.840 --> 0:46:02.520
<v Speaker 1>is from Nathan Staker in Utah and as Pop's mister,

0:46:02.760 --> 0:46:03.560
<v Speaker 1>Brent Steaker.

0:46:03.760 --> 0:46:07.440
<v Speaker 2>Nice congratulations Nathan and Brent. That's pretty great. We love

0:46:07.520 --> 0:46:08.400
<v Speaker 2>inspiring people.

0:46:08.800 --> 0:46:11.080
<v Speaker 3>Beautiful trees, very beautiful.

0:46:11.719 --> 0:46:13.480
<v Speaker 2>If you want to be like Nathan and Brent and

0:46:13.520 --> 0:46:15.800
<v Speaker 2>let us know how we inspired you to do something cool,

0:46:15.880 --> 0:46:18.600
<v Speaker 2>We love that kind of thing, you can send it

0:46:18.640 --> 0:46:25.160
<v Speaker 2>in an email to stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.

0:46:25.320 --> 0:46:28.200
<v Speaker 3>Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

0:46:28.280 --> 0:46:32.480
<v Speaker 3>more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

0:46:32.600 --> 0:46:34.440
<v Speaker 3>or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.