1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's 3 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:17,639 Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too. Just mister Green Jeans and 4 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 2: Zipper Face and Madam Lucks all here together bring you stuff. 5 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 3: You should Who do I get to beat this week? 6 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 2: You get to pick? 7 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 3: Oh, I'll be Zipper Base of course. 8 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:33,560 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I was gonna be Zipper Face, but okay, 9 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 2: I'll be mister green Jeans all right? From what was 10 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 2: that from Captain Kangaroo. 11 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 1: The only one I recognize is mister green Jeans. I've 12 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:41,200 Speaker 1: never heard of the other two. 13 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 2: I made them up. Oh okay, perfect, you just heard 14 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 2: of them just now. 15 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:48,840 Speaker 3: I'm not losing my mind. 16 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 2: No, you're with it. You're with it man, So Chuck, 17 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 2: I'm really kind of excited about this one. Today we're 18 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 2: doing Wikipedia, and as longtime listeners of Stuff you Should 19 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 2: Know are already aware, we have a standing ban for 20 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 2: our writers on using Wikipedia as a source. Don't even 21 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 2: peek at it. Maybe maybe to confirm a date or 22 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 2: something like that, but just leave Wikipedia out of it. 23 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 2: And it's really twofold. There's two reasons. One, it's long 24 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 2: been notoriously unreliable because anybody can edit any page or 25 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 2: write whatever they want on a Wikipedia page, so that 26 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 2: inherently makes it unreliable by nature. And number two, we 27 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 2: would never want to be accused of using Wikipedia as 28 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 2: like our source article. And when you read how some 29 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 2: topic works, it's really difficult for that not to infect 30 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 2: the way that you interpret it and report it later on, 31 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 2: meaning that you could accidentally kind of copy the structure 32 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 2: of a Wikipedia article. We never want to do that. 33 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 2: So those two reasons we've always kind of banned Wikipedia. 34 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, I mean we don't use ourselves except for, 35 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: like you said, you know, confirmation of the odd thing. 36 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: Occasionally I will use it as a I will go 37 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:10,239 Speaker 1: to the and we've talked about this too, the links 38 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: to the original articles and write papers and studies and 39 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 1: things like that. It could be handy, and it's handy 40 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 1: in my everyday life, but we've never used it. And 41 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 1: that's why it's even though it shouldn't bother me, it 42 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:26,799 Speaker 1: still gets under my skin when and I don't read 43 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: reviews that much, but when people say like. 44 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 3: Well these go do a suit down read Wikipedia articles 45 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 3: to you. 46 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 2: Right, right, Because people say that they do say that, 47 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 2: and we want them to be able to be wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. 48 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:41,239 Speaker 2: The thing is, I have to say this. I haven't. 49 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 2: I haven't decided we need to alter our editorial policies 50 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 2: or anything like that. But after researching Wikipedia, I have 51 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 2: come to have a slightly different, actually a radically different 52 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 2: opinion of Wikipedia as a whole, collectively put together, and 53 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 2: just what it is, what it stands for, and just 54 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 2: how reliable it is. Turns out like our view was 55 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 2: maybe a little rooted in pre twenty thirteen, twenty twelve, 56 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 2: and it may be time to just kind of evolve, 57 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 2: but still again not touch our editorial policy. 58 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. 59 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: I mean I've always You've always been the one who 60 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 1: was a little more grudgey. 61 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 2: Oh, I thought that was both of us. I thought 62 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 2: we'd agreed on that. Huh. 63 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 1: No, I mean I don't think we should use it 64 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: for a reference, But I've always enjoyed the site, and 65 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 1: I think you've always been a little more had your 66 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: nose turned up a little more, which I totally respect. 67 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 2: I don't know if I would characterize it as nose 68 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 2: turned up. I'm not sure what it is, but I 69 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 2: don't know is it nose turned up? Is that what 70 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 2: I've been doing all these years. 71 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: Maybe, but hey, you're in a you're an educated. 72 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 2: Smart toast about town dude. 73 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 1: No, and I think you've always just been a little 74 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: bit like that's just not for me, which I get. 75 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 2: All right, Well, then I'm here to say I renounced 76 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 2: that elitist view and I am a lot more accepting 77 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 2: of Wikipedia and what it is and what it does. 78 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 3: All right, Okay, great, I guess. 79 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 2: Call me Saul from now on. Oh wait, Paul, you 80 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 2: better I head it backwards, didn't. 81 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 3: I are you speaking biblicaly? Yeah, biblicy, bibugy, bibby. I 82 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 3: don't know. Let's not get into that. 83 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: We should quickly just go through a what it is, 84 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: and Dave helped us out with this and just a 85 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: few sort of fun stats at the beginning. But Wikipedia, 86 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: of course, is an online encyclopedia created or you know, 87 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 1: maintained by wikipedians who are users, just everyday people. 88 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 3: So that's what it is. 89 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: But what it really is is the large's reference work ever, 90 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: created ninety times larger than the one hundred and twenty 91 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: volume encyclop Encyclopedia Britannica. 92 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 2: That's IMPRESSIB sixty two. 93 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 1: Million articles, three hundred plus languages, four billion plus visitors 94 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: a month, edging up towards three hundred thousand Wikipedians or 95 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: Wikipedia editors. 96 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:13,799 Speaker 3: And that's all I got. 97 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: But actually I got one more I did see And 98 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 1: this is in two thousand and eight, so this is 99 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: a long time ago. There was one computer scientist who 100 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 1: estimated that up to that point there were one hundred 101 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: million hours spent developing and getting Wikipedia up to that point. 102 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 2: Wow. Did you mention how many edits are made every second? 103 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 3: Yeah? 104 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 2: Okay, I didn't think you did, And I'm glad you 105 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 2: didn't because this one's my favorite. 106 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 3: You like it. 107 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 2: This is a I think a twenty twenty two estimate. 108 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 2: Five point two Wikipedia edits are made every second. Wow, 109 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 2: And each month fourteen million edits are made. And you 110 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 2: as we kind of talk about how Wikipedia actually works, 111 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 2: that will become more and more significant as we go. 112 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. 113 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 1: So, I mean that's sort of the overview of some 114 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: stats and how it's defined, but what it really is, 115 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: and they've kind of nailed it on the head as 116 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: far as their ethos. It's kind of a utopian idea 117 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: and an experiment that people can get on the Internet, 118 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: and not justly insults, but they can get on the 119 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 1: Internet and create an important volume of knowledge for people. 120 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. I saw a great quote that said, it's a 121 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 2: good thing that Wikipedia works in practice, because it certainly 122 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 2: doesn't work in theory. 123 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 3: Oh interesting. 124 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, and no matter where you are around the world, 125 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 2: that's not one hundred percent true. But in a large area, 126 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 2: a swath of the world, there are Wikipedias for you 127 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 2: in your language about your culture. Whether you speak Zulu 128 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 2: or Tartar, or Sanskrit, Old English, Creole, Haitian Esperanto, Yoruba, Piedmontese, Yiddish, 129 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 2: all of them have their own Wikipedia. There's all a 130 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 2: lot of different WIKIPEDIAI I'm just adding eye to anything 131 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 2: plural from now on. That's my new thing. But it's 132 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 2: really impressive, like the idea that people came together and 133 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 2: did this for free as volunteers, and now we have, 134 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 2: like you said, by far, the largest reference work ever created. 135 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: That's right, a site and we'll get into all this, 136 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 1: the whys of all this, but you know it's a 137 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: site with no ads. It is a very low fi 138 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 1: site that is overseen by the Wikimedia Yeah, that's right, 139 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: Wikimedia Foundation. 140 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 3: It is funded by donations. 141 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: I know at times when you go to Wikipedia, everyone 142 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: but you, that is, occasionally you might see a little 143 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: a hat out and said, hey, wouldn't you drop a 144 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 1: couple of bucks in this thing if you like using 145 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: the site. 146 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 2: I've donated to Wikipedia. Now I get emails for it too. 147 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 3: I see. That's how they get you. 148 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 2: You give them an inch and they take a mile. 149 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 2: You know. 150 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: Operating budget of about one hundred and sixty eight million 151 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: dollars a year, which is surprising to me. I didn't 152 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: know it would cost that much. 153 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 2: Oh, I thought that was low. I was surprised. Yeah, 154 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 2: I mean it's one of the biggest websites in the 155 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 2: entire world. I think it's number three or five, depending 156 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 2: who you ask for number of visits monthly visits like. 157 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, but for something to have be completely created for free, 158 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: mm hm, that seems high. 159 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 2: I get that. But one hundred and sixty five million 160 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 2: of that is Jimmy Wales's compensation, right, and let's talk 161 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 2: about who Jimmy Wales is. That's the lie, by the way, everybody. 162 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:37,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, we should get into the history of it and 163 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: hop in the old wayback machine. Oh, fire it up. 164 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: We're not gonna have to go far, so we don't 165 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: need much fuel. Trying to be more efficient with our 166 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 1: travels these days in this thing. 167 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're using hamsters instead of kerosene lately. 168 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:50,839 Speaker 3: That's right. 169 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: So we're gonna go back to the mid nineteen nineties 170 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,199 Speaker 1: when the World Wide Web was just a young babe 171 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:56,959 Speaker 1: in the crib. 172 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 3: And very adorably. 173 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,439 Speaker 1: When all these websites websites started popping up, there were 174 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 1: people that were like, hey, you know what we need 175 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: now is we got to be people, got to be 176 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 1: able to find this stuff, So we need web directories. 177 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 1: This is obviously before Google was a just a very 178 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: convenient way or any or Bang or you know your 179 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: search engine of choice. 180 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 2: Don't leave Edge out her Edge. 181 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 3: Had come along. 182 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:33,199 Speaker 1: So in nineteen ninety four, Yahoo had a pretty popular 183 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: web directory going on. And if you're young enough to 184 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: where you don't even know what that means, that means 185 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 1: literally you would go to a page and it would say, 186 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: like sports entertainment, kind of like a newspaper. 187 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 2: Here's all ten websites on sports. 188 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: Exactly, and it would list those websites. But then came 189 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 1: along a company called Bomus. It was an early dot 190 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: com who said no, you know what I think we 191 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: should do, like an open source version of this web 192 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 1: directory and we'll call it a webring. 193 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, And the whole premise was if you were a 194 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 2: part of the webring, your site was you would have 195 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 2: a little thing saying like baseball or something like that 196 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 2: the bottom of your site, and that was your connection 197 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:18,679 Speaker 2: to the webring, and you could click next and it 198 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 2: would take you to the next site that had been 199 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 2: connected to the first site, because they're both about baseball 200 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 2: or something way more niche than that. And anybody, because 201 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 2: like you said, it was open source, could make their 202 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 2: own webring. There were usually webmasters who looked at the sites, 203 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 2: approved them, actually put them together. But eventually, as you 204 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 2: had more and more sites added to this ring, you 205 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 2: had a more and more dense collection of information about 206 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 2: one usually fairly niche topic. Apparently Pamela Anderson was like 207 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 2: one of the biggest webrings right out of the gate 208 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 2: back in nineteen ninety six. But that was the premise 209 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 2: of what Wikipedia eventually was built on. It was open source, 210 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:01,559 Speaker 2: people could contribute, and the the initial body of knowledge 211 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 2: was built upon by more and more people. 212 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, and Bomas got popular. They kind of focused on 213 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 1: manned stuff for lack of a better term, and I 214 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 1: think that's what they literally called it. It was like 215 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 1: car things and sports things, Pamela Anderson. And then they 216 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: quickly realized, hey, naked women on the Internet performs really well, 217 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: as it turns out, so they really started focusing on 218 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: that kind of adult material. I guess to call it 219 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: something a little tame and chiefly nude pictures of women. 220 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: And they really drilled down on that and got very, 221 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 1: very popular because of that, but then pivoted pretty quickly 222 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: because Jimmy Wales, the guy you mentioned, one of the 223 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: founders of Bomas, had a larger, more pure vision in 224 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: mind when he said, hey, I think we could create 225 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: a free encyclopedia. So we founded new Pedia, which was 226 00:11:59,040 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: financed by Bone. 227 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, and everybody uses an encyclopedia, whether you just need 228 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 2: to make a quick reference, whether you're a kid writing 229 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 2: a research paper, whether you're a parent researching your kid's 230 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 2: research paper. Like, people just need an encyclopedia. It's a 231 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 2: basic thing. So let's create one and then let's sell 232 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 2: ads against it. There's nothing wrong with that. That's what 233 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 2: we do. We put out free content and then there's 234 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 2: ads that like that was essentially the basic premise of 235 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 2: websites forever and still generally is right. The thing about 236 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 2: it that made it a little more than just like 237 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 2: a money making scheme was that from the outset, James 238 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 2: Wales and his partner, a guy named Larry Sanger, were really, 239 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 2: really like they placed a tremendous amount of emphasis on 240 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 2: truth and correctness and their articles being error free. So 241 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 2: it wasn't just something they slapped together. It had nothing 242 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 2: to do with long tail or any terrible ideas like that. 243 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 2: It was really well researched article was vetted by academics 244 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 2: and professionals, with ads sold against it. That was new 245 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 2: Pedia and it was a great idea, except that in 246 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 2: the like go go hustle early part of the Internet 247 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 2: where you could just get things in like that, New 248 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 2: Pedia was glacially slow, and it was that was ultimately 249 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 2: its downfall. 250 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, And that's in you, by the way, 251 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: not in ew in Upedia. It was slow because they, 252 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: like you said, they wanted to get things right. There 253 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 1: was a seven step process in place before anything was published, 254 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: so it was sort of the traditional publishing model that 255 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,319 Speaker 1: had been used for you know how long However, long 256 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: publishing traditional publishing had been around like this, which is, 257 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 1: you you have something reviewed, whether you work for a 258 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: newspaper and you do your fact checking, or you have 259 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: your editor in chief checking on things. In this case, 260 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 1: Larry Sanger was the editor in chief of new Pedia, 261 00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: or you know, have things reviewed by experts and then 262 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: you published. That was what they were doing sort of 263 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: in that order. You write something, you review it, review 264 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: it through that seven step process, and then you publish 265 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: it online. 266 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:12,959 Speaker 3: And it was, like you said, slow. 267 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 1: I think twenty one articles came out in that first year, 268 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: and Sanger, it seemed like, in particular, was pretty frustrated 269 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: with that speed. 270 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, getting content out. 271 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 2: For sure. So just put that aside. These guys are 272 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 2: kind of in suspended animation at this moment. In I 273 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 2: think nineteen ninety nine, end of nineteen ninety nine, a 274 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 2: few years earlier earlier than that, there was a guy 275 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 2: named Wag Cunningham in the very early nineties. He was 276 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 2: a software engineer. He was trying to figure out how 277 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 2: to share ideas at his company that anybody at the 278 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 2: company could like kind of contribute to, right, So he 279 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 2: actually took an Apple program called HyperCard and created a 280 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 2: hypertext program that he called quick weeb I believe was 281 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 2: the first name for and that was basically where anybody 282 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 2: could go into this program and contribute to this body 283 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 2: of knowledge, this body of information, and it would grow 284 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 2: and grow and grow, and things would link to other things. 285 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 2: That's hypertext and very fortunately. Ward Cunningham went on vacation 286 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 2: to Hawaii also in the early nineties, and he noticed 287 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 2: that there were little airport shuttles called wiki wiki airport buses, 288 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 2: which means quick wiki means quick and he just loved 289 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 2: that name. So he changed the name from quick web 290 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 2: to wiki wiki Web, and that was the first wiki. 291 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 2: What we understand is a wiki a bunch of user 292 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 2: generated content that anybody can contribute to and edit and 293 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 2: link to other stuff. The whole thing just becomes self 294 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 2: referential and grows as a result. 295 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was basically, in his mind, a way 296 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: for programmers to talk to one another about programming. But 297 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: he realized he was on to a larger concept. Not 298 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: so much that he tried to get a patent on 299 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 1: the concept of a wiki, which was probably a grave error, 300 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 1: but he said at the time he didn't think like 301 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: anyone would be interested in something like that, so it 302 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: wasn't worth pursuing. 303 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 3: The other thing we should mention about. 304 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: Ward Cunningham is he has now been credited with what's 305 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: known as Cunningham's law. 306 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 3: Have you ever heard of this? 307 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 2: I have? 308 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 1: Which is kind of the foundation of the Internet in 309 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: some ways, and definitely Wikipedia, which is he said the 310 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: best way to get a correct answer online is not 311 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 1: by asking a question, but by posing a wrong answer. 312 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: And it was sort of a theory but has kind 313 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 1: of proved to be true in his mind at least. 314 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: And I agree that, like, when you ask someone something online, 315 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: it can be very hard or slow to get a 316 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: correct answer, but if you post something wrong then people 317 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: are very very quick to correct you. And so that 318 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: was sort of the basis of his WikiWikiWeb with programmers 319 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: talking to one another. 320 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's preserved at wiki dot C two dot com, 321 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:07,640 Speaker 2: And like, I can't make heads or tails of any 322 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 2: of it, but it's still there. It's super cute and 323 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 2: quaint looking, but it's neat. The usability is really amazing too, 324 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 2: especially for what he built it on. 325 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 3: That'd be fun if you could go to a year 326 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 3: of the Internet. 327 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 2: I know, what I'm man, and I think you can 328 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 2: on Internet archive. 329 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:29,360 Speaker 1: No, I mean like turn your Internet into two thousand, 330 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 1: like two thousand and one or nineteen ninety seven, and 331 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: not just read things, but have it just be like 332 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: from that year and what it was like. 333 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 2: I got to just give check GPT like three more months. 334 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 3: Right, you're probably right. 335 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 2: So now we're going to come back to Jimmy Wales 336 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 2: Larry Sanger and this dispute over who came up with 337 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 2: the idea of taking the wiki concept that Ward Cunningham 338 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 2: came up with and applying it to the encyclopedia concept 339 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 2: that Wales and Sanger had come up with new Pedia. 340 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:00,159 Speaker 2: It doesn't ultimately matter, but just to name check, a 341 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 2: guy named Jeremy Rosenfeld was a bonus employee. He's the 342 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 2: one who Jimmy Whale says came up with the idea 343 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:08,679 Speaker 2: of using a wiki. Larry Sanger said he came up 344 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 2: with the idea after having dinner with a guy named 345 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 2: Ben Kovitz. He says he even remembers that he ordered 346 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:16,719 Speaker 2: enchiladas at the dinner. That's how much he remembers it 347 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 2: either way, regardless, within two weeks of that dinner, that 348 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 2: Larry Sanger had where he was introduced to the concept 349 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 2: of a wiki. New Pedia had become a wiki, and 350 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 2: the new Pedia advisory board was like, we don't like 351 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:33,679 Speaker 2: this idea. The smells of like brand new stuff and 352 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 2: we're afraid of it. And also, what's this whole concept 353 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 2: of write, publish and then review. That's that's like sacrilegious, 354 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 2: Like you can't do that. And so Wales and Sanger said, 355 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 2: all right, you guys stay over here with new Pedia. 356 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 2: We're gonna go over here with our thing. We're gonna 357 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:56,439 Speaker 2: call it Wikipedia, and Wikipedia within two weeks was born 358 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 2: on January fifteenth, two thousand and one. Larry's had that 359 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 2: dinner on January second, two thousand and one. 360 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 3: That's right. 361 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:08,640 Speaker 1: And as far as that claim for what it's worth, 362 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 1: the actual Wikipedia article on Sanger confirms that it was him. Well, 363 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: then I don't know, true, I don't know Jimmy Wales 364 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 1: just begrudgingly allows that to stay there or not. But 365 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: everything I saw kind of said it was Sanger. So 366 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 1: just like I said, take it for what it's worth. 367 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,679 Speaker 2: It's funny you mentioned Jimmy Wales begrudgingly just letting it 368 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,439 Speaker 2: stay there because He was caught very early on in 369 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 2: the early days of Wikipedia, editing the Bonus dot com 370 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 2: Wikipedia entry to remove softcore pornography from it, say like 371 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,360 Speaker 2: the words softcore pornography, and he got called out for that. 372 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 3: And they're like, dude, that's how that was our foundation 373 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 3: at first. 374 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 2: So but that's a really good example of what's starting 375 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 2: to happen at this time around two thousand and one 376 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 2: with Wikipedia. It's brand new, but people are starting to 377 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 2: kind of come to it, figure it out out, get 378 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 2: the hang of it, and become like enthralled by it 379 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 2: and starting to like write articles, edit articles, discuss how 380 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 2: to how to best make an edit. Like it's starting 381 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 2: to kind of grow. But it took a truly horrible 382 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:17,199 Speaker 2: event for Wikipedia to truly come into its own for 383 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,120 Speaker 2: the very first time. And I say, we take a break, Chuck. 384 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 3: That's quite a cliffhanger to stop. You should. 385 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: All right, So you were hanging on a cliff here. 386 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: You talked about a terrible event. You probably don't have 387 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:56,199 Speaker 1: to be a rocket scientist to figure out what that 388 00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 1: event was. Considering Wikipedia really got cranking in January of 389 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: two thousand and one, kind of sped along for about 390 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:08,360 Speaker 1: nine months, growing pretty quickly compared to initially. I think 391 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: there were about ten thousand articles written over that period. 392 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 1: And then nine to eleven happened, and that changed everything 393 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: because news sites crashed. Everyone was trying to get information 394 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,880 Speaker 1: and they were going to these you know, super heavily 395 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 1: ad filled websites, websites with videos, pop up ads, all 396 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: kinds of things that like slow traffic down and overload things, 397 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,119 Speaker 1: and all these people were trying to go to these 398 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: sites to find out news and information. Wikipedia is there 399 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 1: with its lo fi, no ads, no pop ups, no 400 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 1: video kind of layout, and it didn't crash. And so 401 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:53,719 Speaker 1: the September eleventh, two thousand and one terrorist attack article 402 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 1: on Wikipedia grew at a speed that I don't know 403 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:58,640 Speaker 1: any web page has ever grown before. 404 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 2: No, and that was that it's like Wikipedia. The idea 405 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 2: finally took off on September eleventh and the days after 406 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 2: because people were searching for information on it, like every second, 407 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 2: they were just looking for more and more info. Stuff 408 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 2: was news was coming out hard and fast like that, 409 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 2: and with the news sites down, that Wikipedia article became 410 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,120 Speaker 2: like the de facto source of information, and so as 411 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 2: more people came to it and were like what is 412 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:25,919 Speaker 2: this and then kind of figured out right there on 413 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 2: the fly how Wikipedia worked. They actually stuck around and 414 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 2: started adding to the article, editing the article, discussing like 415 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 2: the wording for the article, and that single article on 416 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 2: the September eleventh, two thousand and one terrorist attack that 417 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 2: became the cornerstone of how Wikipedia developed. That article did 418 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 2: in all of the discussions, and still today they archived 419 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 2: all the discussions all the way back to the first day, 420 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 2: and it is really interesting to see like the arguments 421 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 2: and discussions that people got into over that because it 422 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 2: was at the time and then in the years following, 423 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 2: it's just always been such a controversial topic and such 424 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 2: a sacred topic too here in the United States. 425 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, and not only just the topic, but kind of 426 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,480 Speaker 1: everything that they were, all the subtopics, and that was 427 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:19,199 Speaker 1: where Wikipedia really came to find what it was and 428 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 1: what it wasn't because they were doing things like truly 429 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,119 Speaker 1: helpful things at the time, like a list of victims, 430 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: blood drives and links to where you could go to 431 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: help and donate and things like that. But as that 432 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 1: was happening, like you said, it was sort of happening 433 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: in real time, and their talk page was flooded with 434 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: people saying, well, wait a minute, I'm not sure beyond 435 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:46,439 Speaker 1: just like editing, you know, the news and facts. They 436 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: were like, well, what are we doing here? We need 437 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 1: to be truthful and accurate, of course, but do we 438 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: have stuff like is this an encyclopedia or not? Like 439 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: do we have a list of victims of you know, 440 00:23:57,960 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: I hate to say it, but like people who aren't 441 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 1: well known, because an encyclopedia probably wouldn't. Would we have 442 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:08,120 Speaker 1: links to blood drives? Probably not, because an encyclopedia wouldn't. 443 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: So as they went through those really pretty tough discussions, 444 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: what Wikipedia wasn't became pretty clear. 445 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, it became what's known as the five pillars, which 446 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 2: we'll talk about in a second. But one of the 447 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:24,120 Speaker 2: things that emerged from it too was they weren't there 448 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 2: to report the news. So anybody who had breaking news, 449 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,719 Speaker 2: it became clear Wikipedia was not a place for that. 450 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 2: They were meant to be behind the curve. They report 451 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 2: on reliable sources reporting. That's what the entries were built on, 452 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 2: and that was a huge, huge foundation that was kind 453 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 2: of laid that day, I guess. But just as one 454 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 2: little aside at this time, shortly After this, Wikipedia attracted 455 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 2: a lot of people. People started sticking around and writing 456 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 2: other articles that were related to the two thousand and 457 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 2: one September eleventh attacks, and it just started to grow. 458 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 2: At the same time, it also attracted trolls essentially out 459 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,119 Speaker 2: of the gate, and there were trolls on the site. 460 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 2: And Larry Sanger did not have the stomach for that 461 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 2: at all. And I don't blame him. Trolls sucked. They're 462 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 2: the worst. But he quit because he said, we need 463 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 2: to have some sort of structure here. We need to 464 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 2: have a constitution, We need a way to vet these 465 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,160 Speaker 2: these claims and these facts that are in these articles. 466 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,679 Speaker 2: We got to slow this down, man. And Jimmy Wales 467 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:32,439 Speaker 2: is like, no, that's we're not going to do that. 468 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 2: We've met in ein ran chat forums, for God's sake, 469 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 2: We're not gonna We're not gonna do this. We're going 470 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 2: to go the opposite direction. We'll figure it out as 471 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 2: as we go. And so Larry Sanger quit and became 472 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 2: one of the biggest critics of Wikipedia. He was only 473 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 2: there for I think fourteen months. 474 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, Weiss called them their most outspoken critic In two 475 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: thousand and seven, he said the site was broken beyond repair. 476 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 1: He has said that there's a large and this is 477 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: just a few of the criticisms. Of course, there's very 478 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,920 Speaker 1: very many. You might want to say he has a 479 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: bone to pick with Wikipedia, but I also feel like 480 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 1: he truly believes his stuff. Sure, he said that it 481 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: has a massive left wing bias and has used examples 482 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: on everything from LGTBQ websites to Donald Trump versus Barack 483 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:27,360 Speaker 1: Obama's I keep saying websites, I should call them Wikipedia 484 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: articles rather Oh yeah, okay, Donald Trump's page versus Barack 485 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: Obama's page, all kinds of stuff, basically saying that, hey, 486 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: we're only getting one point of view here. We're not 487 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 1: getting the right wing side of things, We're not getting 488 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:47,120 Speaker 1: the libertarian viewpoint on things. So he's had a bone 489 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 1: to pick with Wikipedia, although I think he has softened 490 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 1: it here and there saying that I think he said 491 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: that the bias is probably the least of their problems. 492 00:26:58,560 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 1: So that's not like really where he's. 493 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 3: Hand has had. I don't want to make it seem 494 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 3: like that. 495 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 2: Well, what's interesting is his criticism seem to have worked 496 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:09,640 Speaker 2: themselves out because one of the things that Wikipedia strives 497 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 2: for is neutrality is close to neutrality and objective, I don't. 498 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 2: I keep wanting to use the word reporting, but that's wrong. 499 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 2: Reporting makes it documenting. It's neutral, objective, documentation of knowledge. 500 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 2: That's what it's after, right. And So I was looking 501 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 2: at banned users and a lot of them seem to 502 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 2: be like social justice warriors who are like righting wrongs 503 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 2: and they get banned for life. So I mean, I 504 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 2: don't think that it necessarily has a political bias one 505 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 2: way or the other, if anything. Politically, from what I 506 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 2: can tell, it's that's where it's closest to neutral. Of 507 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 2: all gender, ethnicity, that's a different story. But politically it 508 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 2: does seem to be pretty centrist. 509 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,199 Speaker 3: Yeah, well Sanger doesn't feel like it at least, but 510 00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 3: you know that's his take. 511 00:27:58,760 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 2: Well get him on the phone. 512 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,400 Speaker 1: Oh man, what if we took Collers, that'd be great, 513 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: Go ahead, Collar. I've always wanted to say that, Hey, 514 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 1: long time, first time. So in two thousand and two, 515 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: Wikipedia avoided what would have been a sea change when 516 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 1: they thought about getting ads on the site and making money, 517 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 1: you know, the good old fashioned webway, and the people 518 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,120 Speaker 1: of Wikipedia got upset. Users were like no, no, no, 519 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,199 Speaker 1: this is what makes you guys different. You can't do 520 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: that in Spain. There were some Spanish Wikipedians who got 521 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: so upset they created their own well, I guess you 522 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: would say Encyclopedia libra, but it's just spelled differently. They said, 523 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 1: you know, that scared them off, basically to where they're 524 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 1: created their own And he said, all right, I'll hear 525 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: you loud and clear. We'll launch the Wikimedia Foundation. 526 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 3: That was pretty early on. 527 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: It was in two thousand and three, and then they 528 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: change from dot com to dot org. They shut down 529 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 1: new Pedia that same year and got together and figured 530 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 1: out these five pillars that you mentioned earlier, one of 531 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 1: which you just reference, which was neutrality. 532 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. So there are five pillars the fundamental principles of Wikipedia, 533 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 2: and a lot of these were find its roots in 534 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 2: that September eleventh, two thousand and one page, but they've 535 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 2: also really been refined and developed over time. And I 536 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 2: think we should cut to the last one first because 537 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 2: it really kind of gives a It gives you, like 538 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 2: the right impression when you hear the rest of the rules. 539 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 2: And the last one is that Wikipedia has no firm rules. 540 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 2: There's no one in charge. There's a group of people 541 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 2: who are volunteer administrators who actually can ban you. They 542 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 2: actually can delete like entire entries if they feel like 543 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 2: that's necessary. But those are those people are few and 544 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 2: far between, and they are meant to like not wield 545 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 2: their power. Essentially, no one's in charge, No one owns 546 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 2: an article, and there are different competing philosophies about how 547 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 2: Wikipedia should be built, how articles should be written, what's truth, 548 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 2: what's a reliable source? And these competing philosophies battle one 549 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 2: another or engage in conversation and dialogue with one another 550 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 2: on the talk page for these amazing like like the 551 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 2: really well written, well researched articles or entries that people 552 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 2: really care about. There's really fascinating discussions about, you know, 553 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,479 Speaker 2: just wording, like just what word to use or this 554 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 2: word doesn't quite fit, or what's a reliable citation? And 555 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 2: that the reason why it works is because there's it 556 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 2: will constantly evolve in that in that setup, there's no rigidity. 557 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 2: It's like whatever philosophy wins out wins out, and that 558 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 2: one specific disagreement over that one specific edit on that 559 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 2: one specific entry, and then the next time it may 560 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 2: have a completely different outcome, but collectively as a whole, 561 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 2: that leads to that leads to the neutrality that we 562 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 2: referenced earlier. 563 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 1: That's right, So that's I guess five and two. Pillar 564 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 1: Number one is that it's an encyclopedia, which speaks for itself. 565 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: Number three is that it's free. And that well also 566 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 1: kind of part three because you said that no one 567 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: owns a Wikipedia article. I imagine that can be tough 568 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 1: at times. If you have, if you're if you have 569 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: created an entry that is very very niche that you 570 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 1: knew a lot about and you care a lot about, 571 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 1: I imagine it can it can be very tough to 572 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 1: sort of hand that over and say, okay, like I 573 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 1: guess anyone can change this right, so that that must 574 00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: be hard, but still a pillar. 575 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 3: And the number four is. 576 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: Editors should treat each other with respect and civility. I'm 577 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 1: sure that that well, we know that that is gotten 578 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 1: out of hand because there's been reports of bullying within 579 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: the what are they called wikipedians. But the pillar at 580 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: least is to avoid these edit wars and work with 581 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: your fellow editors instead of against them, to not bully, 582 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 1: to have patients with new editors, and things like that 583 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 1: and try and foster like kind of a different community 584 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: for what usually happens online. 585 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, what's amazing is it generally works. The whole premise 586 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 2: of that pillar is assume good faith. That it's such 587 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 2: a it's such an important point that it's abbreviate is AGF, 588 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 2: and that is that if you see somebody adding some dumb, 589 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 2: dumb fact that's clearly a conspiracy theory, as if it's 590 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 2: fact to some article, don't don't take that act as 591 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 2: a like like they're willfully trying to harm that article 592 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 2: or hurt Wikipedia or personally insult you. What they're doing 593 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 2: probably if you assume good faith is in their mind 594 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 2: they think they're actually helping Wikipedia, they're helping the site, 595 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 2: they're making this entry more legit, even though they're totally 596 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 2: completely wrong. So if you come at it from that 597 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 2: premise where you assume good faith, then that's where it's 598 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 2: going to. That's where it's least likely to devolve into 599 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 2: an argument or name calling or threats or wiki bullying. 600 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 2: And that seems to be like the the case or 601 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 2: the place that the editors that I saw will go from. 602 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 2: Like that whole assuming good faith first part a lot 603 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 2: of them, do not all of them obviously, because it's 604 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 2: the Internet for sure. 605 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 1: All Right, I say we take another break and come 606 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 1: back with blocks and bands and whether or not Wikipedia 607 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: is truly reliable? 608 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 3: Is that sound good? 609 00:33:55,480 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 2: That sounds great, Chuck? All right, Still you should know 610 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 2: so even though you assume good faith that you're supposed 611 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,320 Speaker 2: to assume good faith, like we said, it can become 612 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 2: clear that somebody's like willfully being a jerk. There's a 613 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 2: whole thing called vandalism, where you are purposefully like inserting 614 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 2: incorrect stuff into an article just to mess with people, right, 615 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 2: just to mess with the article. It can be hilarious. 616 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 2: Spamming is another one, where you promote yourself or your product, 617 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 2: which is just you should just know that you don't 618 00:34:58,160 --> 00:34:59,359 Speaker 2: do that, but people do that. 619 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 1: What else, well, obviously we've talked about the bullying and harassment, 620 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 1: the three revert rule, which is basically you don't revert 621 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 1: or change or undo three edits on the same page 622 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 1: within twenty four hours, which is kind of like a 623 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:21,400 Speaker 1: slow year role move a little bit. Copyright violations pretty 624 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: self explanatory. Using multiple Wikipedia accounts, which they call sock puppetry. 625 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:33,360 Speaker 1: It's very cute and anything. Just that's against the idea 626 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:34,959 Speaker 1: of what they're trying to do, which is to build 627 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:39,759 Speaker 1: out this encyclopedia and all of this is this is 628 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:44,759 Speaker 1: not decided upon by just your average user or Wikipedia Wikipedia, 629 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: and rather but the volunteer administrators. I think the English 630 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 1: Wikipedia has more than eight hundred administrators, and they are Wikipedians. 631 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 1: They're just really experienced ones who know the ins and 632 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 1: outs and take it really seriously. They do not work 633 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 1: for the Wikimedia Foundation and get a cut of that 634 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 1: one hundred and sixty million bucks a year, right, but 635 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 1: they're the ones in charge of determining when a block 636 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 1: or a ban can happen. 637 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 3: Blocks being. 638 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 1: Temporary, they can be longer duration wise, it can be shorter, 639 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 1: can be a one specific thing you did in an 640 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:26,799 Speaker 1: article or the whole article that you're blocked from for 641 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:30,359 Speaker 1: a little while. You can appeal those, but it's meant 642 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,719 Speaker 1: to be a preventative measure and not a punitive. And 643 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,280 Speaker 1: then you have the ban, which kind of speaks for itself. 644 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 1: It's usually a site band, which means you just you 645 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: can't come on here anymore. 646 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 2: You know, you can go on, but you can't make 647 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,120 Speaker 2: a single edit. All you can do is sit there 648 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 2: and read pal. 649 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 1: Oh well yeah, I mean we're talking about editing, not 650 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 1: like anyone can read anything. 651 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 2: Sure, sure, right, And also anybody can edit unless you've 652 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 2: been blocked or banned, and you don't even have to 653 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 2: create an account, which is one of the cool things. 654 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,200 Speaker 2: But there's entire site bands, so like you can be 655 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:05,400 Speaker 2: completely banned from English Wikipedia, or you could be globally banned, 656 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,279 Speaker 2: so any Wikipedia in any language. And I believe some 657 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 2: of the other Wiki projects like wictionary, like you just 658 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 2: you'll be you can't do anything on those. 659 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, So that kind of brings us to where we 660 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,560 Speaker 1: started with this whole thing and why we didn't use it. 661 00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,439 Speaker 1: Why we don't use it and started out at least 662 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 1: and still don't. Is that is it? Is it reputable? 663 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 1: Is it truthful? Is it accurate? You usually can't use 664 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 1: Wikipedia as a source for a school paper, certainly not 665 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 1: a college paper. We make up our own rules, as 666 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 1: Josh and Chuck do stuff, you should know, so we 667 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:46,719 Speaker 1: could do whatever we wanted. Sure, that was just something 668 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 1: that we did from the beginning. Like, no one, I 669 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:50,839 Speaker 1: don't think anyone told us to do that, did they? 670 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,480 Speaker 2: No? Apparently it was just my idea because I'm a 671 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:54,359 Speaker 2: big snob. 672 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 3: Right, No, not at all. We were both on board. 673 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,319 Speaker 1: There was a study into two thousand and five and 674 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,799 Speaker 1: there's I tried to find something more recent, but they 675 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 1: compared forty two entries on Wikipedia to the same thing 676 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:12,760 Speaker 1: in the Encyclopedia Britannica and found that the average mistakes 677 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 1: per article was four for Wikipedia, three for the Britannica, 678 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 1: which is a little bit startling. Yeah, the differences between 679 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 1: Wikipedia and Britannica is that you can change something really 680 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:27,319 Speaker 1: fast on Wikipedia and Encyclopedia Britannica, at least for the 681 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 1: hard copy volumes. You know, obviously he's going to have 682 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 1: to wait till the next publish. And they've tested out 683 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 1: the speed of Wikipedia changes or I guess corrections, and 684 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 1: they filed false information in thirty three different articles about 685 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,360 Speaker 1: dead philosophers, and in forty eight hours, a third of 686 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:49,480 Speaker 1: those had been fixed, and three of those within sixty seconds. 687 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. I looked those up and some of them are hilarious. 688 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,120 Speaker 2: They all seem rather innocuous, but if you stop and 689 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 2: think about what they're saying, they're pretty funny. Like Wickenstein 690 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 2: was fined for poisoning squirrels in his yard, or Spinoza 691 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:06,360 Speaker 2: supported himself by selling stolen jewelry, or that David Hume 692 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,600 Speaker 2: used to wrestle with local sportsmen, like we just but 693 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 2: just completely like the way that the sentences were written, 694 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,400 Speaker 2: like you would totally buy them and they still got corrected. 695 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,200 Speaker 2: And that's kind of like the whole premise of Wikipedia 696 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 2: is like eventually somebody's going to find that and they're 697 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:24,799 Speaker 2: going to correct it. Might be in a minute, it 698 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 2: might be in forty eight hours, it might be in 699 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,239 Speaker 2: six weeks, but eventually it's going to get created, like 700 00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:33,279 Speaker 2: you'll eventually get to the truth or correctness. 701 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,440 Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, And Dave points out and this is 702 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,719 Speaker 1: really really the truth of the matter is something as 703 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:44,640 Speaker 1: as large as Wikipedia created by users. There's going to 704 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 1: be some great articles. There's going to be some good ones, 705 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 1: and there's going to be some not so great ones. 706 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 1: Just how it shakes out, and so are they're actually 707 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:56,360 Speaker 1: labeled now, which is something that a lot of people 708 00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,600 Speaker 1: may not really realize, but they can be labeled good 709 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,239 Speaker 1: or fee. If it's good, that means it's got a 710 00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,319 Speaker 1: little small plus sign inside a green circle. They're close 711 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,759 Speaker 1: to forty thousand good articles on the English version. If 712 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,399 Speaker 1: it's featured, that means it's the cream of the crop 713 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 1: as far as Wikipedia vetting goes. And there are close 714 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,960 Speaker 1: to sixty five hundred that are featured with that bronze star. 715 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I saw the Museum of Bad Art as a 716 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:27,440 Speaker 2: featured article. There's a but there's just tons of them, thousands, right, 717 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:28,960 Speaker 2: And you can just go look at the list and 718 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:30,680 Speaker 2: be like, oh, Okay, this is a really good article. 719 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:34,120 Speaker 2: I'm going to read this one. Despite all that, I 720 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,360 Speaker 2: think the featured articles represent one out of every thousand 721 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,319 Speaker 2: and fifty articles on the site. It's a very low percentage. 722 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:45,640 Speaker 2: And because of that, Wikipedia even says Wikipedia is not 723 00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 2: a reliable source. They say it it's expressed on their website. 724 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,799 Speaker 2: And you can't actually use a Wikipedia entry as a 725 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:57,640 Speaker 2: citation on another Wikipedia entry. You link to other stuff, 726 00:40:57,680 --> 00:40:59,759 Speaker 2: you can hyperlink it, but you can't use that to 727 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:04,759 Speaker 2: or support that sentence or that fact or whatever. And 728 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 2: there's the reason why. One of the reasons why. It 729 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:12,080 Speaker 2: was kind of perfectly captured by that amazing comic XKCD, 730 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:17,080 Speaker 2: and they coined the term cytogenesis, where somebody can put 731 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,560 Speaker 2: in a fake fact on a Wikipedia page and then 732 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 2: go to that Wikipedia page to prove that their fact 733 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,919 Speaker 2: is correct. Right, So it's like this snake that eats 734 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 2: its tail. And there's actually an example of that. There's 735 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,399 Speaker 2: an Australian duo called Peaking Duck and one of their 736 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:39,000 Speaker 2: fans got backstage because he inserted his name as a 737 00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,839 Speaker 2: relative of one of the band members and showed it 738 00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,000 Speaker 2: to like the guy who was guarding the backstage and 739 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,280 Speaker 2: ended up getting backstage because of it. Isn't that amazing? 740 00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:50,600 Speaker 3: Pretty amazing? 741 00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:53,799 Speaker 2: I love that story, And apparently Peaking Duck they said 742 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,640 Speaker 2: it was a genius mastermind move, so I guess they 743 00:41:57,680 --> 00:41:58,680 Speaker 2: appreciated it too. 744 00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:02,600 Speaker 3: So so, you know, we mentioned a bias earlier. 745 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:06,719 Speaker 1: With politics, but the real bias comes in, like you 746 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,719 Speaker 1: mentioned at the beginning with kind of who is who 747 00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:15,440 Speaker 1: these wikipedians are, eighty seven percent of these editors are 748 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:17,840 Speaker 1: men and eighty nine percent are white. 749 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,439 Speaker 2: That means one hundred and seventy six percent are white men. 750 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,200 Speaker 1: Half of them are in Europe and twenty percent live 751 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:29,640 Speaker 1: in North America. So unsurprisingly you're going to have some 752 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:33,560 Speaker 1: gender bias playing out. I think less than nineteen percent 753 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,640 Speaker 1: of the English language biographies are about women, and those 754 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,960 Speaker 1: are also the articles that are most often flagged for 755 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:45,279 Speaker 1: deletion as being you know, not notable enough. And they've 756 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,440 Speaker 1: combatd this over the years in different ways. They get 757 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 1: together sometimes and organize edit athons where they try and 758 00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:58,360 Speaker 1: boost content about women and minorities, people of color, ethnic diversity, 759 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:00,160 Speaker 1: like anything like that. They could have an edit to 760 00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:05,839 Speaker 1: though about to try and you know, bring more, bring 761 00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:07,360 Speaker 1: more of a light onto those groups. 762 00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:09,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, and we have to say, there's so that whole 763 00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,880 Speaker 2: idea that premise that Wikipedia is unreliable. It seems to 764 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:17,080 Speaker 2: basically find a single source. Initially, there's a journalist named 765 00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:21,879 Speaker 2: John Seigenthaler who had a joke Entry made about him. 766 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,319 Speaker 2: He was an advisor, i think to Bobby Kennedy, and 767 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,680 Speaker 2: the Hoaxter wrote that he was a suspect in the 768 00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:32,040 Speaker 2: assassination of Bobby Kennedy and John Kennedy and John Siegenthaler 769 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:33,960 Speaker 2: heard about this, and he did not find that funny 770 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,080 Speaker 2: at all. He just happened to be one of the 771 00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:38,920 Speaker 2: founding editors of USA Today. So he took to the 772 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:43,200 Speaker 2: pages of USA Today and completely excoriated Wikipedia, called it 773 00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:47,920 Speaker 2: out as a completely unreliable irresponsible research tool, right. That 774 00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:50,680 Speaker 2: was two thousand and five, and that really kind of 775 00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:54,440 Speaker 2: laid the foundation for Wikipedia's bad reputation for a while. 776 00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,799 Speaker 2: But if you go on to the Wikipedia entry about Wikipedia, 777 00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:01,280 Speaker 2: which I admit I read some of, they even say 778 00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:05,400 Speaker 2: around starting sometime in about the twenty tens, that reputation 779 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,239 Speaker 2: started to get shed and we're finally reaching the point 780 00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,560 Speaker 2: today where people are saying, go use Wikipedia, just use 781 00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:15,239 Speaker 2: it as like a an introduction to your topic, and 782 00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:18,359 Speaker 2: then go out and do further research. So it's really 783 00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:20,360 Speaker 2: kind of come into its own twenty years on. 784 00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:21,919 Speaker 3: That's right. 785 00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:24,640 Speaker 1: If you want to get into editing, there are tutorials. 786 00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:28,880 Speaker 1: There's an introduction tutorial of how to do everything from 787 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:32,440 Speaker 1: creating things from scratch to editing. I mean, good luck 788 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 1: creating something from scratch and finding something that doesn't exist 789 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:39,240 Speaker 1: already at this point. And if you want a gamified version, 790 00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,600 Speaker 1: you can check out the Wikipedia Adventure to help with 791 00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:45,799 Speaker 1: your tutorial, and they also have a help desk and 792 00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:49,040 Speaker 1: the Tea House, which is where new editors can learn 793 00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:50,280 Speaker 1: the ropes in a friendly manner. 794 00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:52,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think just going on the talk page 795 00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:55,640 Speaker 2: of any article will kind of familiarize you with what 796 00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:57,400 Speaker 2: you should be doing. If you want to contribue, but 797 00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:02,279 Speaker 2: do contribute. It's nice, I said, it's nice. I don't 798 00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:04,400 Speaker 2: think Chuck has anything else because he didn't respond, So 799 00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:06,279 Speaker 2: I think that means it's time for a listener mail. 800 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,680 Speaker 1: I'm going to call this bonsai inspiration. 801 00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:12,759 Speaker 3: It was very cool. 802 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,520 Speaker 1: Hey guys, a few years ago you did the bon 803 00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,160 Speaker 1: Si episode. My dad and I listened to it became 804 00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:22,160 Speaker 1: very inspired. I have a horticultural degree from USU. 805 00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:23,080 Speaker 3: That's Utah. 806 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,480 Speaker 1: By the way, he thought it might be interested too, 807 00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:27,680 Speaker 1: so as father and son, we began working on trees. 808 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:32,399 Speaker 1: Fast forward to today, we have thirty different trees. We've 809 00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:34,120 Speaker 1: lost a few along the way, but have learned so 810 00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:37,640 Speaker 1: much through a Bonsi show. In twenty seventeen, we became 811 00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,799 Speaker 1: members of the Utah bon Si Club and have both 812 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:44,879 Speaker 1: entered bon Sai into a show hosted bly hosted by 813 00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,640 Speaker 1: Red Butte Gardens. Who would have thought that a simple 814 00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:50,719 Speaker 1: podcast could have inspired my dad and I to do 815 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,359 Speaker 1: this and go this far with it. I would love 816 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:55,840 Speaker 1: to give my dad a shout out. He turned sixty 817 00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,680 Speaker 1: this year. Proud of him and what we've accomplished. That 818 00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:02,520 Speaker 1: is from Nathan Staker in Utah and as Pop's mister, 819 00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:03,560 Speaker 1: Brent Steaker. 820 00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:07,440 Speaker 2: Nice congratulations Nathan and Brent. That's pretty great. We love 821 00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:08,400 Speaker 2: inspiring people. 822 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,080 Speaker 3: Beautiful trees, very beautiful. 823 00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:13,480 Speaker 2: If you want to be like Nathan and Brent and 824 00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:15,800 Speaker 2: let us know how we inspired you to do something cool, 825 00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:18,600 Speaker 2: We love that kind of thing, you can send it 826 00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:25,160 Speaker 2: in an email to stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com. 827 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,200 Speaker 3: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For 828 00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:32,480 Speaker 3: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 829 00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:34,440 Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.